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Speaker 1: Welcome in to a Wednesday morning podcast. Every year, I
Speaker 1: interview Sam Smith, who in nineteen ninety one wrote the
Speaker 1: New York Times best seller of The Jordan Rules, which
Speaker 1: sort of defined the first real public criticism of Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan and the pushback he received. But Sam has a
Speaker 1: lot of depth and knowledge on MJ and a lot
Speaker 1: of positive things to say, so I think you'll really
Speaker 1: like the interview. There's a lot of things he brought
Speaker 1: up that I had not thought about, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk for about five minutes about the movie The
Speaker 1: Air movie on Jordan and Sonny Vacaro. So I saw
Speaker 1: at the Other night, Monday night premier in LA at
Speaker 1: the Design Center in West Hollywood. And so years and
Speaker 1: years ago, my first recollection of Sonny Vacaro, I covered
Speaker 1: U and LV out of college thirty years ago, over
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, and Vacaro hung around the program because
Speaker 1: you know, at that time, you and LV was on
Speaker 1: a shortlist of the most captivating programs in the country.
Speaker 1: And you'd see Sonny Vacaro around the program. And to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, you know, Tark always had that
Speaker 1: kind of just you know, little shadiness. You know. Tark
Speaker 1: was given by un l V about forty tickets per
Speaker 1: home game, and Tark could give those out to whoever
Speaker 1: he wanted. It was very unique. Even the top coaches
Speaker 1: in college basketball at that time, Dean Smith, Nolan Richardson
Speaker 1: at Arkansas maybe got four or five tickets per home game.
Speaker 1: Tark had like forty forty five. So there were always
Speaker 1: people hanging around practice that you know, we're a little
Speaker 1: a little shady, you know. And I'd see Sonny of
Speaker 1: Acaro around and I didn't know what to make of him.
Speaker 1: He was always a very nice guy. But anybody that
Speaker 1: hung around Tark, you know, I was a journalist, there
Speaker 1: was some controversial players I was always a little suspicious of.
Speaker 1: But you could tell very early on he had such
Speaker 1: an affection for players. The players loved him. He loved
Speaker 1: the players. And then I started asking around about Sonny Vaccaro,
Speaker 1: and you found that he was a really brilliant basketball
Speaker 1: mind with his heart in the right place. He thought,
Speaker 1: he thought players deserve something for all their time and effort.
Speaker 1: And Sonny Pacaro was a really important figure in the
Speaker 1: NCAA's history on reforming college sports. But Vicaro plays a
Speaker 1: key role in this movie because as Nike was mostly
Speaker 1: a jogging company, because that's what Phil Knight did. And
Speaker 1: Phil Knight, you know in the movie, is you know,
Speaker 1: not wearing socks, you know, often wandering intellectually. He had
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in Asia, and Phil was
Speaker 1: always a unique had kind of an Eastern not Western perspective,
Speaker 1: an Eastern perspective on a psychology and philosophy and business.
Speaker 1: Makes him a fascinating guy, Phil Knight, And you know,
Speaker 1: Vacaro was just a tough, minded, gruff little Chubby was
Speaker 1: never going to jog. They were very different people, but
Speaker 1: in the movie, I think it gives you a sense
Speaker 1: of how Phil respected Sonny Vacaro and how Sonny Vacaro
Speaker 1: appreciated the courage of a Phil Knight. I think it's
Speaker 1: I really thought it was an excellent movie. I'm no
Speaker 1: film critic, but the audience erupted in applause multiple times.
Speaker 1: And my takeaway on it, I love the relationship between
Speaker 1: Sonny Vacaro, who's finally sort of getting the affirmation in
Speaker 1: the validation he deserves. Phil's gotten plenty of it. And
Speaker 1: also for Michael Jordan's mother, And a real big takeaway
Speaker 1: I had in this movie is that Michael's mother, still living,
Speaker 1: is a no nonsense woman growing up in the South,
Speaker 1: very protective of her son and very demanding of others
Speaker 1: respecting her son. And she comes off as incredibly likable
Speaker 1: in the movie and powerful. And I really think you
Speaker 1: win as an audience watching this movie. You have great
Speaker 1: respect for Michael's parents, for Sonny Vicarro, and those people
Speaker 1: have not been given the credit and the Michael Jordan's story,
Speaker 1: at least outwardly that they probably deserve. So I highly
Speaker 1: recommend watching it. For me, it was so personal because
Speaker 1: I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and spent six
Speaker 1: seven years in Portland. I loved all the drone shots
Speaker 1: to the Nike campus and the Steve Prefontaine images and
Speaker 1: you know the bridges, you see cars, you know, driving over.
Speaker 1: It was really for me. It really worked as a movie,
Speaker 1: but I think it gives credit to people who probably
Speaker 1: haven't been given those accolades previously in Michael Jordan's legendary career.
Speaker 1: You know. I also thought there was a very clever
Speaker 1: touch by Ben Affleck is that you never really see
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan in the movie. You hear his voice, you
Speaker 1: see him from the back, and that's interesting metaphorically because
Speaker 1: Michael is a really, really private guy, and without Michael
Speaker 1: having a big role in the movie, it allows you
Speaker 1: to concentrate more on key figures like his mother and
Speaker 1: Sonny Vicaro and Phil Knight. So it gets multiple thumbs
Speaker 1: up from me. Very touching, very genuine, and credit to
Speaker 1: people who have deserved more through the years. In Michael's
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Speaker 1: I did watch the movie The Air movie about the
Speaker 1: early version of Nike Sonny Vacaro and Michael Jordan, and
Speaker 1: Michael's mom plays a key figure in this movie. She's
Speaker 1: really the star of the movie. And I thought as
Speaker 1: I watched the movie, I've been very critical of Michael
Speaker 1: through the years, saying that Nike's Air Jordan commercials the
Speaker 1: greatest domestic ad campaign of my life, and it has
Speaker 1: created almost a reaganlike shield a Teflon shield around Michael,
Speaker 1: when if you simply acknowledge previous failings, you're considered a hater. Well,
Speaker 1: Sam Smith, who, Well, it's the original critic of Michael,
Speaker 1: the only one. Back in nineteen ninety one, The Jordan Rules,
Speaker 1: a magnificent book on the turbulent season with Michael Jordan
Speaker 1: and the Bulls New York Times bestseller. It was the
Speaker 1: talk of the literary sports world for several years. He
Speaker 1: got a Lifetime Achievement Award, Pro Basketball Writers Association, Kurt
Speaker 1: Goudy Media Award Hall of Fame currently writes for Bulls
Speaker 1: dot Com. And whenever I'm critical of Jordan, as I
Speaker 1: watched that movie, I always get major pushback. And I've
Speaker 1: said this before that you know Michael would punch a
Speaker 1: player and they would say, well, he's just very competitive.
Speaker 1: Draymond Green punches a guy, should be thrown out of
Speaker 1: the league. And I think, you know, it's part of
Speaker 1: that smile and charisma. When you released the book, you
Speaker 1: obviously knew you were Michael was wildly popular. Did you
Speaker 1: expect the avalanche criticism? Did you know it was coming? Cole?
Speaker 1: Let me say first, if Michael punched somebody and his
Speaker 1: knuckles were bruised. That was on the other guy, and
Speaker 1: I think that's what you mention now. I was, you know,
Speaker 1: probably talked about that, and I'm frankly pleased that you're
Speaker 1: still on the air being critical of Jordan. Um. You
Speaker 1: know there's a thought police about that these days. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was probably pretty naive about it, being a reporter,
Speaker 1: having been an investigative reporter over the years, I figured, well,
Speaker 1: if I just write what's true, you know, what's the
Speaker 1: problem with that? And so it was. It was an
Speaker 1: incredible you know, it was over thirty years ago. And
Speaker 1: you know, one thing I was kind of pleased about
Speaker 1: and pleased about a lot of things, you know, with
Speaker 1: the Last Dance documentary, but one is that Michael sort
Speaker 1: of cop to all this finally took thirty years, but
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, yeah, I could be a jerk, but
Speaker 1: you know what a reason for it. And so back
Speaker 1: then it was saying, yeah, you know, the guy's tough
Speaker 1: to live with and people because of as you refer
Speaker 1: to those commercials, he was really i mean marketed as
Speaker 1: kind of you know, the cliche all American kai. I
Speaker 1: remember one of the the Coca Cola sponsors. He he
Speaker 1: like leaped up into a treehouse to deliver the Coca
Speaker 1: Cola and he I mean, and they made a point
Speaker 1: of this. They were doing, you know, Chevrolet apple Pie.
Speaker 1: They were doing those controversials to make it as American
Speaker 1: as you know, patriotic and could be. And then so
Speaker 1: you know, I sort of write a book about behind
Speaker 1: the scenes in basketball. He said, well, this is not
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan. I saw him in the commercials. He's nothing
Speaker 1: like that, right. You know. It's not that I'll defend him,
Speaker 1: but I was talking about this with somebody the other day.
Speaker 1: A lot of us resent or regret what we did
Speaker 1: in our twenties, but we did it for a reason.
Speaker 1: We were immature. I mean, I grew up divorced kid
Speaker 1: on my own, not a lot of money in the family,
Speaker 1: and I was a pretty relentless workaholic in my twenties
Speaker 1: and that's what I thought I needed and was mature
Speaker 1: enough to handle it that time. And I look at
Speaker 1: Michael and I said, people say, oh, he was rough
Speaker 1: on teammates, but the Pistons were tackling him. The Celtics
Speaker 1: were doing about the same. The East was loaded and
Speaker 1: physical and it was all allowed by the league, and
Speaker 1: I say to myself, relentless was the only way for
Speaker 1: Michael to get through it. He was being attacked defensively,
Speaker 1: and could I argue that we do things out throughout
Speaker 1: the course of our life because it gets us to
Speaker 1: a better place. And the East was bullyball, Nicks, Celtics, Pistons,
Speaker 1: and Michael was the target for almost all of it.
Speaker 1: And he was just he was building up a medal
Speaker 1: and a toughness in that Chicago bull team. That was necessary.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly right, because you know what gets
Speaker 1: overlooked because it Michael Jordan came into the NBA out
Speaker 1: of the eighty four Olympics game winning shot in North Carolina.
Speaker 1: You know, with such fanfare to dunking in the Sports
Speaker 1: Illustrated covers and all that. The notion was, well, he's
Speaker 1: gone to see right away. But at the same time, simultaneously,
Speaker 1: what Jerry Krous is doing with the Bulls is it's
Speaker 1: rebuilding basically. You know, it has Jordan out front, but
Speaker 1: he's basically they had a lot of high draft picks,
Speaker 1: so decent players on Land to Woolrich and Sydney Green
Speaker 1: and players who could have developed or did develop in
Speaker 1: other places, and he traded all of them off essentially
Speaker 1: for draft picks. Draft picks. You know, they got Pipping
Speaker 1: and they got hors Grant and he was sort of
Speaker 1: it wasn't called that then, you know, because teams didn't
Speaker 1: really dump to the draft back then because they have
Speaker 1: infectly needed the tendance. And really Jordan should have been
Speaker 1: with the Pacers. One of the great overlooked stories is
Speaker 1: the reason Portland had the Pick was the Pacers had
Speaker 1: lost James Edwards and for attendance needed a center, so
Speaker 1: they traded to Pick to Portland, and that's how Portland
Speaker 1: ended up. You know, I'm using for Sambooie and all.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so Jordan comes in and the notion as well,
Speaker 1: he's his great figure. He's got to compete again Bird
Speaker 1: Magic Isaiah and they've got Bill Teems and he's looking around,
Speaker 1: but when his roster and goes, well, you know, I've
Speaker 1: got I don't what have I got here? I got
Speaker 1: Kyle Macy and I he's you know, and so you
Speaker 1: know that was sort of a joke about. You know,
Speaker 1: they said, well Jordan couldn't make guys better, and he
Speaker 1: used to say well, yeah, if I had James Worthy
Speaker 1: and Kareem I could make him better. You know, I
Speaker 1: got Brown and said, they all three, I can't make
Speaker 1: them better. Um the MJ documentary, I thought, I remember
Speaker 1: when they made um the movie Wall Street about Gordon
Speaker 1: Gecko and Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone said, I didn't
Speaker 1: try to glamorize him and make him popular, but everybody,
Speaker 1: every stockbroker wanted to be Gordon Gecko, and the faults
Speaker 1: of Gecko became sort of romanticized. And Sam, when I
Speaker 1: watched the MJ documentary, Now, obviously MJ had some say it,
Speaker 1: but even Warts and uh, you know, Will Purdue saying
Speaker 1: things about it. Yeah, I found it. Maybe it's because
Speaker 1: the league is, you know, it's it's more of a
Speaker 1: three point shooting league. It's more skilled, but more finesse.
Speaker 1: I found it incredibly likable. I'm like, I missed the layering,
Speaker 1: I missed the toughness. I missed I missed guys not
Speaker 1: all being best friends. I was. I fell into it, Sam,
Speaker 1: I I that documentary. I made me like Michael Moore.
Speaker 1: What was your takeaway on it? Well, A couple of
Speaker 1: takes What the one takeaway? That I like, and it's
Speaker 1: sort of one of the things I was criticized was
Speaker 1: his Hall of Fame speech where he pointed, you know,
Speaker 1: the guy who beat him, you know, got on them,
Speaker 1: you know, got on the varsity ahead of him. And
Speaker 1: he brought in different guys over the years that he
Speaker 1: you know, he had these um challenges by and people said, well,
Speaker 1: this is this is horrible. At the Call of Fame
Speaker 1: he was sort of laming guys for this time, and no,
Speaker 1: this is this is great because he showed you exactly
Speaker 1: who he is and who he's always been. And you
Speaker 1: know that that's the attraction of it, you know what
Speaker 1: you said the Jordan Rules when I wrote it, and
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I was surprised is because
Speaker 1: I saw it as as a sympathetic portrait, you know,
Speaker 1: if you you know, and I know, you know, our
Speaker 1: version of Twitter back then was headlines and things taken
Speaker 1: out of you know, contacts or whatever. What people would
Speaker 1: complain it to us about. You took it out of context,
Speaker 1: the headline didn't represent the story and all. And so
Speaker 1: there was a lot of that with the Jordan Rules,
Speaker 1: you know, just like now, people didn't always read back
Speaker 1: then either. Uh, when I depicted you know my depiction
Speaker 1: because I'd like Jordan, I've been around them a long time.
Speaker 1: I really appreciated his competitiveness and his zeal and you know,
Speaker 1: his willingness to try to pull this group along, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of with him, uh, and what he went through
Speaker 1: how to pistons atacked him, you know. But not only that,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember the one year at the MVP boat. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, Magic was very close with Isaiah. We were
Speaker 1: sitting in a locker room and it came down, Uh,
Speaker 1: Magic had won the MVP and all that reported, and
Speaker 1: he was very gracious and for the book, we had
Speaker 1: a good relations I'm sitting with him in the locker
Speaker 1: room and it happened to be in Detroit and every
Speaker 1: all reporters when he turns to me and he goes
Speaker 1: anybody but that guy, meaning Magic, meaning they held up
Speaker 1: Magic all the time and saying he's the guy who
Speaker 1: made everybody better, not me. Yeah, and so that you
Speaker 1: know that sort of saying. So I sort of viewed
Speaker 1: it sympathetically, but you know the notion of the fights
Speaker 1: and you know, the taking Harss grand dinner, and you know,
Speaker 1: you don't deserve to eat because you played there. You
Speaker 1: know it sort of looked both ways. Um. Sam Smith
Speaker 1: joining us writer for the Bulls dot Com. Um it
Speaker 1: is um. I one of the things that is a
Speaker 1: active about Michael. I couldn't watch a ten part Brady
Speaker 1: or Lebron documentary, and that social media has shown me
Speaker 1: all I ever need to see about any player, what
Speaker 1: they eat, their family. I get now, their opinions on vaccines,
Speaker 1: their political opinions. You know Michael. As we peel the
Speaker 1: layers back on Michael and the Air movie, I didn't
Speaker 1: know that much about him because we didn't know that
Speaker 1: much about anybody, and that I think what makes Michael
Speaker 1: appealing to me. The journey for basketball Sam was not
Speaker 1: as grooved as it is today through Au It's just
Speaker 1: not it's just groove. Now they're all friends, nobody's battling
Speaker 1: for a piece of the pie. Otto porter can make
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars. It's a different world. And I
Speaker 1: do think the struggle, although Michael's struggle is less than others. Hell,
Speaker 1: the Jerry Kraus stuff, it is fascinating. I'm watching the
Speaker 1: Sonny of Acaro stuff, and you know the toughness of
Speaker 1: his mother. There's parts of the privacy of Michael. You
Speaker 1: were on an inner circle for a long time, but
Speaker 1: I view him now it's a bit of a private figure.
Speaker 1: How would you describe that, even as an owner of
Speaker 1: the Bobcats, he never really talked much, right, And actually
Speaker 1: that was what was great about the documentary The Last Stance,
Speaker 1: because it really was the first time he sat down
Speaker 1: and showed you who he was kind of relaxed. Didn't
Speaker 1: kind of do it through a commercial because you know,
Speaker 1: he was always he always felt it wasn't so much
Speaker 1: he was wanted to promote himself, but he felt an obligation.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, he really had a good upbringing.
Speaker 1: And I haven't I didn't see the Sneaker movie yet,
Speaker 1: but his mother, I know, had a huge part. He
Speaker 1: was very close with his father. They were really best
Speaker 1: friends more than father's son, you know, and at loss
Speaker 1: was tremendous, But he always felt as a responsibility and
Speaker 1: obligation to his sponsors. So to remember him talking about
Speaker 1: that to act in a certain way as a result
Speaker 1: of that, and so you know, he finally now he
Speaker 1: saw over the years and I credited him for that.
Speaker 1: I actually I remember he wasn't selling himself. I remember
Speaker 1: one time, and he'd become tremendously popular, and he was
Speaker 1: popular all over the world. I mean the I remember
Speaker 1: the North North Korean the dad who who who gone,
Speaker 1: had a crazy sons there, but they were sending for
Speaker 1: bulls memorabilia back then from North Korea. Um, you know.
Speaker 1: And and when David Stern went to China, uh, he
Speaker 1: always he always talked about you know, China didn't know
Speaker 1: anything about the NBA. They hadn't heard of anybody. But
Speaker 1: they had asked him about the red oxen and the
Speaker 1: bull that's all they knew, you know. And so but
Speaker 1: as a result, you know, he understood that. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, and we see why he's made fortune,
Speaker 1: billionaire whatever. I remember a Japanese company had contacted him
Speaker 1: and said they would pay him a million dollars for
Speaker 1: an appearance, and he's and he and this was like
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, something like that, and he said,
Speaker 1: I'm not just going to sell myself like that. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do that because so so you know
Speaker 1: this sort of uh, I'm not surprised that he's he's
Speaker 1: he's that way now, and that's why the documentary was
Speaker 1: great because you're not going to see him otherwise, he's
Speaker 1: not going to be around he you know, the NBA
Speaker 1: has brought out everybody, Bill Russell and Oscar robertson All
Speaker 1: Star Games and finals and they named the awards. He's
Speaker 1: the one who never shows up anywhere. You know, you
Speaker 1: never see him anywhere. He's at all these All Star games,
Speaker 1: you know, for Nike, but you've never seen him in public.
Speaker 1: And you know, I wish he would a little more,
Speaker 1: you know. He he doesn't want to sell himself and
Speaker 1: cheap in it really and it's really even smart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean privacy and not knowing everything about you. I
Speaker 1: remember Jack Nicholson, the Great Owner, saying he wouldn't go
Speaker 1: on these shows when he was promoting a movie and
Speaker 1: He's like, why would I give me away for free?
Speaker 1: I want that theater experience to be really special. And
Speaker 1: I think about that all the time. I you know,
Speaker 1: I see everybody putting their meals and their vacations on Instagram,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, it's okay to have some
Speaker 1: private stuff in your life. I don't need to market
Speaker 1: my every time I go walk on the beach in Florida.
Speaker 1: The ownership in Charlotte, Sam I've said this, and it
Speaker 1: may be unfair that Michael was Ohays. First of all,
Speaker 1: he was a very good decision maker, David Falk, Phil Knight,
Speaker 1: Phil Jackson. He tended to have excellent dgment and be
Speaker 1: pretty picky on the people that he would choose to
Speaker 1: guide his journey. So he had and by the way,
Speaker 1: I'm watching Lamar Jackson. Now he has his mom as
Speaker 1: an agent. Now he got an agent to day that's
Speaker 1: not registered. Some guys don't make great decisions Michael made
Speaker 1: and Lebron's done this. Michael made very solid decisions Sonny
Speaker 1: Vacaro on the people that pitched him and he listened to.
Speaker 1: I didn't expect the ownership with Charlotte to be great
Speaker 1: because I always thought Michael was great at elevating Michael.
Speaker 1: But to be an executive, a coach, or an owner,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of giving. It is, to some degree
Speaker 1: elevating others. Is it unfair characteristic to say Michael was
Speaker 1: better at elevating Michael, his brand and his net worth
Speaker 1: than sometimes elevating those around him. He didn't have the
Speaker 1: patience for it. I don't know about that that's a
Speaker 1: hard one. First of all, you know, ownership management is
Speaker 1: an awful lot of luck. You know, the Bulls lucked
Speaker 1: in the Jordan in eighty. Had they not, they probably
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have had any titles they would have had
Speaker 1: you know, twenty five fifty years, the Phoenix Suns have
Speaker 1: never won a title despite whatever, and so you know,
Speaker 1: you got to get lucky. Charlotte has never gotten lucky.
Speaker 1: I remember, uh, you know, people like to think, fans, media, whatever,
Speaker 1: that just because you've succeeded in something that you'll succeed uh,
Speaker 1: you know, because of what you did in your specialty,
Speaker 1: you know. And it's sort of like all these coaches
Speaker 1: who sort of stood next to uh Bill Parcels. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just because you're you're you're around somebody who's successful,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And so you know,
Speaker 1: it's difficult to sort of pick guys. Michael, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, had difficulty you know, who exactly could he
Speaker 1: trust in our situations? And so I remember when the Bulls,
Speaker 1: you know, ninety eight they broke up, and you know
Speaker 1: I would in the last dance, and so the fans
Speaker 1: in the media, the notion was, well, let Michael run
Speaker 1: the team. You know, he's a winner, you know. And
Speaker 1: so we don't hear that much anymore anymore since the
Speaker 1: Charlotte's situation. And I don't think it's a case of
Speaker 1: Michael being concerned about celebrating himself. I don't think that
Speaker 1: what he was about. It's just, you know, you don't
Speaker 1: go to school for management of a sports team. There's
Speaker 1: no there's no degree, you know, there's no tests like
Speaker 1: to be a CPA or a lawyer or something like that.
Speaker 1: So you know, who does these things? How do you
Speaker 1: do it? Um? You know, it's it's a lot of luck,
Speaker 1: and he just hasn't gotten lucky. I mean that sort
Speaker 1: of a simplified version of it. Um, he's been in
Speaker 1: the lottery. You know, you get your bad you don't
Speaker 1: get Lebron, you get you know, you get you get
Speaker 1: the second guy makes tremendous differences. And so you know,
Speaker 1: now now I see he's gonna cash out, you know,
Speaker 1: in the league one thing him in. David Stern wanted
Speaker 1: him in and basically almost gave him that franchise, you know,
Speaker 1: to have him in the game. Basically, I think he
Speaker 1: just paid off the debts, and so one thing Michael
Speaker 1: has always done. He used to joke about OPM, you know,
Speaker 1: the way to operate a businesses with other people's money.
Speaker 1: So he was always he was always bright about that,
Speaker 1: and he always always understood equity and he always understood value.
Speaker 1: And he's tried, but you can see in the last
Speaker 1: couple of years he's lost the enthusiasm for it just
Speaker 1: because it's so hard. The irony is now, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, on the ownership the governors whatever they call themselves.
Speaker 1: Now Michael got was put in charge of the labor
Speaker 1: committee of the owners and he was appalled at these
Speaker 1: salaries that they started daying, you know, because you know
Speaker 1: he made at the time when he made the thirty million,
Speaker 1: it was you know, ten million more. Patrickeing I think
Speaker 1: made eighteen or nineteen, and the next highest were like
Speaker 1: ten or twelve, you know, so he's making double or
Speaker 1: triple whatever anyone is, and you know, now it's sort
Speaker 1: of you know, on the bottom side of next steeling.
Speaker 1: He was just sort of appalled that the salaries that
Speaker 1: were becoming right of that. But I don't think it
Speaker 1: was an ego thing as much as it's really a
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Speaker 1: When you look back at covering Michael, did you instantly know?
Speaker 1: Because the first couple of years I can remember Orlando Woolridge.
Speaker 1: If I recalled Quentin daily, it was guys that needed
Speaker 1: the ball, and Michael, you know, was not going to
Speaker 1: suffer those guys gladly like he wanted the ball and
Speaker 1: he was better, and he was I imagine at practice
Speaker 1: was letting them know on a daily basis he was better.
Speaker 1: But when did you know because he did an average
Speaker 1: a ton of points in college. When did you have
Speaker 1: this sense and talk to other people or maybe you
Speaker 1: just it was your personal insight that you thought, boy,
Speaker 1: this is different. This may be the both gifted basketball
Speaker 1: player I've ever seen. I mean, you're in my generation. Sam.
Speaker 1: I I grew up and there I saw the old
Speaker 1: Wilt and the young Kareem. Michael didn't Doctor Jay, but
Speaker 1: Doctor j didn't have the mid range, dependable game. He
Speaker 1: was spectacular, but he wasn't as relentless nightly every possession
Speaker 1: like Michael. Was. There a moment that kind of crystallized
Speaker 1: it for you when you really felt going back sitting
Speaker 1: on that press table and you thought, boy, this may
Speaker 1: be the greatest basketball player we're ever going to see. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if we went to the
Speaker 1: greatest ever early, but we went pretty spectacular early. You
Speaker 1: know the old joke, of course, was the only one
Speaker 1: who could hold him under twenty points a game with
Speaker 1: Dean Smith. So this is the first practice, and Rod
Speaker 1: Forne is the both GM had been the GM for
Speaker 1: like seven or eight years, had lottery picks almost every year,
Speaker 1: and the team has went in tw twenty eight games.
Speaker 1: And so Jordan is the first practice. Kevin Lockery's the coach,
Speaker 1: and this is the first practice of Jordan's first season.
Speaker 1: And Bill Blair, as I remember, as the assistant then
Speaker 1: and Rod Missus, Rob can't go to the first practice
Speaker 1: to something business then came up, and so Rod miss
Speaker 1: is the first practice. Bill Blair calls them. At the
Speaker 1: end of the first practice, Rod's telling me this story,
Speaker 1: and Bill Blair says, he finally didn't screw up a draft.
Speaker 1: He said, we have never seen anything like this guy.
Speaker 1: He came in with all the and you mentioned Woolwich
Speaker 1: was a top ten pick, went in Daily's the top
Speaker 1: ten picks, Inney Green, Ronnie Lester, all top ten picks,
Speaker 1: and he just blew out everybody. The first couple of practices,
Speaker 1: he's blowing by everybody. He's dunking on everybody. You know
Speaker 1: as that famous story when he came in as a
Speaker 1: freshman at North Carolina and the first thing he did
Speaker 1: he went to the board and he started writing the
Speaker 1: Times listing the names of Worthy Perkins, all these all Americans,
Speaker 1: saying how many times he dunked on them. So that's
Speaker 1: the way he started in North Carolina, and that's the
Speaker 1: way he came into the Bulls. Okay. So I hear
Speaker 1: these stories that coming out of training camp and we
Speaker 1: go see him and it's still training camp and walks
Speaker 1: into the season. I think third game in he hits
Speaker 1: a winner in Milwaukee, like six games in forty nine
Speaker 1: points against I think, what's Portland or something? You know,
Speaker 1: I we're bringing in Portland. Media is all saying we
Speaker 1: got a center. This guy's not specially got Clyde Drexler.
Speaker 1: And I remember the Chicago guys watch this. Where do
Speaker 1: you see this? So we didn't exactly know, say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is guy's going to be you know better an
Speaker 1: Oscar and you know or bird or magic or will
Speaker 1: or whatever. But this was different. This was different than
Speaker 1: than anything we've seem because of the combination you know,
Speaker 1: of the athletics is the drive and the incredible competitiveness
Speaker 1: and this will to win win everything, you know, which
Speaker 1: sort of evolved and we saw more from year to year. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, there's always this debate the greatest and who's
Speaker 1: the great you know, in its arbitrary Lebron's got the
Speaker 1: most points. Now, you know, in my year are going back.
Speaker 1: You know, the two greatest things I remember back basketball
Speaker 1: is Will coming to the NBA and Kareem coming to
Speaker 1: the NBA. You know, went in basically everything out of college.
Speaker 1: And so they said, well, how can Jordan you know,
Speaker 1: Bill Russell's got the most championships, Gareem and now Lebron's
Speaker 1: got the most point How could this guy be the
Speaker 1: greatest ever? And one thing I always point to with
Speaker 1: me is that nobody in sports, and certainly in American sports,
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine worldwide sports has crossed over and
Speaker 1: had the influence on society that he has because of
Speaker 1: the basketball the shoes become fashioned. Likes to tell the story.
Speaker 1: You know, he's the MVPs and Portland's Phil Knights there.
Speaker 1: Phil Knight comes to him say, you know, we're gonna
Speaker 1: put your name on sneakers. We're gonna do this whole
Speaker 1: thing about you know, air bail or whatever he said,
Speaker 1: who's gonna buy sneakers with my name on? What a
Speaker 1: stupid idea that is, you know? And so baldness is okay,
Speaker 1: Now I can I can start shaving my head men
Speaker 1: and wearing jewelry, you know, long short fashion, all all
Speaker 1: these things that transcend the game attached to him. That's
Speaker 1: what makes you the greatest. That's a Babe Ruth kind
Speaker 1: of thing. That's an ali kind of thing where you
Speaker 1: can't measure them only in the sport, but you can
Speaker 1: measure their effect on the world and society. And and
Speaker 1: his has been to me more than anybody that we've
Speaker 1: ever experienced. Bulls dot com Sam Smith. Does Michael visit
Speaker 1: Chicago a lot, golf tournaments, bulls games. His mother does
Speaker 1: some charity work, fairly substantial charity work, I heard, But
Speaker 1: does Michael ever visit Chicago now Never? As far as
Speaker 1: I can tell, he has never been here. I think
Speaker 1: his house it's still for sale up in Highland Park.
Speaker 1: But he built this mansion kind of thing which is
Speaker 1: well overvalued, and I mean not in a bad neighborhood,
Speaker 1: but it's just near a highway's and it's been for
Speaker 1: sale like ten twelve years or something. Nobody you know,
Speaker 1: buy it's got twenty threes all over the gate and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But as far as I know, I've
Speaker 1: never heard him being here. Wow. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, passionate relationship with Chicago leaves very close relationship
Speaker 1: with Barkley. It ends. It is an interesting personality. It's
Speaker 1: not a tech, it's just who he is. I don't know,
Speaker 1: how do you explain that though those are both unique.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know of another player. Maybe Brady
Speaker 1: won't go back to New England. I don't know it.
Speaker 1: I find it just an interesting personality behavioral personality elements.
Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Well, again, because of
Speaker 1: the sort of the Howard Us sort of element to
Speaker 1: him over the years that he wasn't going to make
Speaker 1: himself public and you know, he's as like you know
Speaker 1: mentioned before, he doesn't want to be, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a public figure. He always used to talk way early,
Speaker 1: way earlier, and actually he would tell us, he said,
Speaker 1: you know, once I'm gone, you'll never see me again.
Speaker 1: And you know, there was an element of that. I
Speaker 1: remember him talking about that in the eighties that I'm
Speaker 1: going to finish my career, and when I'm my career
Speaker 1: is over, you will never see me. It's sort of
Speaker 1: been true, but he always the other thing. He used
Speaker 1: to say too, I'm never going to be a show pony.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why it doesn't go at the
Speaker 1: All Star Game or at least come out publicly. You
Speaker 1: don't see him in public much, doesn't, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine the amount of anymore? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know what rich people enough never seems enough. They're
Speaker 1: always doing something. Can you imagine the amount of money
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan could make in appearances or things other things
Speaker 1: he did in public? Millions people who would pay just
Speaker 1: you know, probably he's probably the most famous person in
Speaker 1: the world, maybe the most most. He loved um, but
Speaker 1: he's never you know, he doesn't take advantage of that,
Speaker 1: and he never has any any And for whatever the
Speaker 1: reason was. At a young age in his twenties, he
Speaker 1: talked about that that this is something I'll never do,
Speaker 1: That's something I'll never be a part of. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to sell myself as as a commodity, as a product,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to show what I can do
Speaker 1: and then obviously, you know, he was secure with what
Speaker 1: they was making. But you know, and I don't know
Speaker 1: how they depicted it in that movie. Um, but you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't go seek out the shoe contracts
Speaker 1: and the Nike. He was very reluctant. And I remembered
Speaker 1: early on his mother kind of drags him out there,
Speaker 1: and that's what the movie said. Yeah. But also after
Speaker 1: the first deal, it was like a three or four
Speaker 1: or five year I don't know what the first contract was.
Speaker 1: He didn't want to re up with Nike. I remember
Speaker 1: Craig Hodges talked to him about maybe starting a local
Speaker 1: brand or something. Nike had done something I'm sure that's
Speaker 1: not in the movie that he was upset with and
Speaker 1: he didn't want to go. He was thinking about going
Speaker 1: with another company. I think he said he said, I
Speaker 1: wored Converse or stottm in college. Maybe I'll go with them. So,
Speaker 1: you know, he he was kind of it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much he was saying, I'm Michael Jordan. I can do
Speaker 1: what I want. Is that, you know, it's not my
Speaker 1: life to sell myself as a sneaker salesman. Now he's obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, turned it in but he's turned it. The
Speaker 1: other thing that he's turned it into a quality product.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what he's proud about, that things
Speaker 1: associated with Michael about quality and then not cheap and
Speaker 1: it's not a show pony just for the money. Sam Smith,
Speaker 1: covering the NBA a long time, Milwaukee is the best
Speaker 1: team I've seen this year. I think they have shotmakers,
Speaker 1: three elite defenders with Drew Holliday, Lopez and Janis. I
Speaker 1: just don't know situationally, if I like Boston as much
Speaker 1: this year as last. I don't know about Wiggins or
Speaker 1: k D. The West is wide open. I don't trust
Speaker 1: Denver the best team you've seen this year live, Who
Speaker 1: would it be? Yeah, I even though and the Bulls
Speaker 1: have beat him two out of three Milwaukee, you know,
Speaker 1: but I think one of them Yannis got hurt early
Speaker 1: in one of the games and Chris Middleton wasn't playing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean the West is as even as
Speaker 1: you know, unpowerful you say that, as it's ever been.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no dominant player really in the West.
Speaker 1: You know, with Lebron situation as health, and that's really
Speaker 1: a change in the NBA that there's no great teams anymore.
Speaker 1: There's no there's no super team put together. And so
Speaker 1: I kind of agree with you with Boston. When I
Speaker 1: watched Boston, it's all and I and I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: nobody cares. You know, I don't like the way the
Speaker 1: games played now with this proliferation of three pointers, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's like to sort of get off my
Speaker 1: lawn stuff. You know, who cares about what you say?
Speaker 1: You know, but you watch Boston and Tatum and Brown
Speaker 1: and they'll shoot like ten or twelve threes and they
Speaker 1: miss them all. And instead of saying, well, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not on maybe I'll go to the basket,
Speaker 1: doesn't shoot ten more. So it just comes down to,
Speaker 1: you know, they're gonna make him or not. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the notion is they probably think we're out
Speaker 1: of seven games. We could make enough threes to win. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, Philadelphia's flooded and both were
Speaker 1: in the Philly got Philly twice this week. In Harden
Speaker 1: is just kind of a shell of himself, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you know he's not, you know, sort of Scottie Pippen
Speaker 1: number two to the embat and beat is really carrying
Speaker 1: that thing on his own. That's why I think MVP
Speaker 1: would be legitimate, you know, much more legitimates for him
Speaker 1: and deserving and you know one of those three. You know,
Speaker 1: to me, Jannis probably is the best overall player, but
Speaker 1: he's got really a lot of help. Drew Holiday in
Speaker 1: Middleton and there's a lot there, and there's some depth. Yes,
Speaker 1: Bobby Portish, they picked up you know, he hadn't even Jader,
Speaker 1: They picked Crowder, but they also picked up Gordon Draggets
Speaker 1: from the Bulls Bills. Let Tragis go. He went up there.
Speaker 1: He hadn't played anything, but clearly to saving him just
Speaker 1: for the playoff. A guy can walk in and make
Speaker 1: a shot run a team. So to me, they seem
Speaker 1: like the only really loaded team like Boston. I don't
Speaker 1: like their depth. I don't think they got much depth. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, Cleveland's just there so on the edge. The
Speaker 1: rest of the East is just trying to fighting to
Speaker 1: get in the playoffs, and the West, any one of
Speaker 1: those first eight or nine teams can win, I don't
Speaker 1: think any. I don't see any dominance any of those teams. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dallas and Sacramento don't play defense. Phoenix doesn't have a bench.
Speaker 1: Warriors are absolutely missing wing and frontcourt scoring. It's all
Speaker 1: guard scoring, and I just don't trust the team led
Speaker 1: by Kawhi Leonard. I think he's a remarkable talent, but
Speaker 1: I think he's a guy you can add to an
Speaker 1: already baked culture. I don't think you can build your
Speaker 1: culture around him. I think he's a tough teammate, you know,
Speaker 1: shows up some nights at three forty five and says,
Speaker 1: I'm not playing. I've been told, so I think it's
Speaker 1: wide open. Sam, what a pleasure for me? Writer for
Speaker 1: Bulls dot Com E folks. The nineteen ninety one New
Speaker 1: York Times best settler of the Jordan Rules is a
Speaker 1: terrific read. It's journalism at its highest form. And again,
Speaker 1: it's just great talking to you on an annual basis.
Speaker 1: I always get smarter and learn stuff, Sam. Thank you. Colin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I enjoy it, and maybe we can make it six
Speaker 1: months next time the volume. Make sure to check out
Speaker 1: the Draymond Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the
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