WEBVTT - NJIT’s Green Energy and Climate Adaptation Panel 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.640 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.200 Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Always love 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:10.920 coming here. I learned so much and get an idea 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.360 of what a student population, what an institution that focuses 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:18.800 on things like sustainability, energy, climate engineering, so much more, 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.239 which is so important to our world. And I have 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:23.520 to say and getting ready for this discussion, Tim, I 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:25.840 came across. I was doing some research. Uh, and we 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.440 were doing research and there was something from Accenture that 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.479 was entitled the end of abundance thinking empty shelves during 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:34.879 the pandemic. You think about supply chain problems that we 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.640 had during the pandemic still do pushback on globalizations going on, 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.040 higher energy costs, shortages and services and things that we 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.239 took for granted have resulted in a rethink when it 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.159 comes to abundance thinking. So this last hour we are 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.400 going all in unsustainability. We've got a great panel lined 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.800 up this afternoon joining us. We've got some Metra who 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.720 is Distinguished Professor of Chemistry and Environmental Science here at 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.200 the New Jersey Institute of Technology. To his right, we 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.840 also have a joining us Jonathan Menard, Deputy Director for 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.720 Research and Chief Research Officer at PPL Princeton and Plasma 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.040 Physics Lab. That's p p p L three piece and 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.080 no holding up three fingers there. And we've also got 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.240 joining as Dina Prasto's founder of Indigo River. It's an 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.560 environmental consulting firm. It's good to have you all with 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.000 us this afternoon. Dina, I want to start with you 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.399 and just give us big picture here. How you are 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.760 thinking at Indigo River about um when it comes to 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.000 energy and climate adaptation? How should we all be thinking 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.520 about it? So? I attended n j A t nearly 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:39.959 twenty years ago, and if you would have told me 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.920 I had to I was going to found a company 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.720 focused on climate adaptation through means of sustainability and resiliency, 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.280 I would have said, what does that mean? What does 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.080 that look like? Sorry? Were you even talking about climate 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.680 resiliency or sustainability twenty years ago? Sustainability, surface level sustainability, 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.640 absolutely resiliency. No, I didn't quite understand what the difference 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.080 was inn in today. I feel like a lot of 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.480 professionals in in consulting don't know the difference. And all 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.000 I'll sum it up very briefly to say they're two 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.440 sides at the same coin. And when we talk about sustainability, 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.959 we are looking at human kinds impact on the environment, 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.040 and the flip side of that is when we look 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.920 at resiliency, we look at the environment's impact on the 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.840 built world. So I actually in mice practice focus primarily 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.560 on waterfront infrastructure, and what we look at most often 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.000 is the environment's impact on that infrastructure. So I look 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.800 at resiliency, but it is an inextricably linked to sustainability. Donathan, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:36.840 come on in on this conversation. How do you think 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:41.680 about resiliency. I think fusion power fusion energy that we're 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.400 working at our lab has the potential to provide baseload energy. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.359 One of the challenges we see with some of the 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.240 renewables or with wind and solar for example, as they 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.200 can be intermittent, they depend on, you know, the power 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.720 coming from the sun to blow the wind and solar 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.280 energy and nuclear power in particular could form a or 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.800 a source of energy that we need to drive electricity 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.720 and other other industries that we have they rely on 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.200 so much so that that's our real role at the 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.920 Plasma Physical Lab as advancing fusion energy and studying the 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.400 plasma physics. That's really good foundation of the energy. So 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.640 you're using fusion energy as a synonym for nuclear. You're 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.800 using the terms interchangeably, right it is. So it's funny. 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:25.800 I don't know if you guys followed Josh Wolfe on 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.800 Twitter as a venture capitalist at Lux and he argues 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.079 that we need to rebrand nuclear power and I call 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.480 it elemental power because nuclear has this terrible connotation. What 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.160 do you make of that it has a brand image? 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.680 It does? I mean, think about right, you know, you've 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.880 got Fukushima, You've got three Mile Island here in the US, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.040 and then of course Chernobyl in the nineteen eighties, and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.600 it's very mature. I was actually trained as a nuclear 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.720 engineer and got got the bug for fusion looking at 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.800 some of the waste concerns, safety concerns for fission nuclear power. 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.240 But nevertheless, the safety issues associated with fission and energy 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.040 are quite manageable and really is an important source of 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.000 energy and electricity. For example, of our electricity in the 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.920 United States comes from fission power and nuclear energy. Frances Se, 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.920 South Korea just under. So it's a very important part 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.440 of the energy portfolio, and I think it's one of 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.680 the few options we have for a few firm energy 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.279 uh to really take up the baseload energy that we 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.359 need in our in our economy and to empower the world. 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.719 So I'm come on in on this conversation. You're teaching chemistry, 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.840 you're teaching environmental science here at NJ. I t how 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.400 much I mean, let's let's piggyback on what we've been 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.279 talking about. I am shocked how much we've talked about 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.520 nuclear energy here because it doesn't come up a lot. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.360 Everybody's solar. So we like just closed Indian Point Nuclear 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.159 Power plant here in the Tristate area. So there's a 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.400 perception problem too. I think, yeah, you know, I'm not 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.839 really an expert in nuclear energy, you know, but talking 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.400 about the big pitch of sustainability, I think, um, you know, 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.040 but is it part of that, like do we need 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.560 to think about it? Is? Oh? Definitely, yeah, definitely, you know, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.880 I mean definitely, I mean, you know, if you factor 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.400 in the safety issues, and if we can really factor 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.400 in the safety issues, uh, and we can have safety 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.520 clear energy. Absolutely yeah, definitely. Well, expand to in terms 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:16.560 of your teachings for the students who are here, maybe 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.560 some of them in this room and in general, when 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.719 you think about you know, sustainability, when you think about, um, 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:26.600 the climate, climate adaptation, where do you go with your 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:28.839 students and how do you tell them to think about 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.960 you know, it's five years from now, ten years and 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:32.520 now that we've got to make sure that we can 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.800 power the world. Um. You know. For me, sustainability is 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.240 like you know, they are saying that, you know, think globally, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.599 act locally. So sustainability starts from your morning coffee cup, 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.120 you know, I mean you take by a Starbucks coffee. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.920 Do you think how many trees when goes into making 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.120 you know, all those Starbucks coffees for example, how much 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.120 water pollution is coming from all those coffee cups? You know, 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.039 things like that. So then you dig down to every 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.279 little thing and seeing you know, what is happening. So 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.960 for example, let's say hand sanitizer. Right, typical hand sanitizer 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:09.359 is about profile alcohol three water. Now, the waste water 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.760 from the hand sanitizer is seven percent suprofile alcohol. So 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.279 what do we do with that seven percent is profile alcohol? 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.040 We mix it with solvents and we burn it. So 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.760 so there we produce carbon dioxide. Now, is there a 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.919 way we can take that seven percent isoprofile alcohol and 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.400 concertated to So now it's back being a you know, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.800 hand sanitize. And that's the kind of thinking we need 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.920 at a grassroots level. This is what I think, Professor Matter, 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.720 we're gonna I want to broaden it out to where 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.960 batteries come into this conversation because I know a lot 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.800 of your research has to do with increasing the life 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.400 of standard household batteries. But I have a personal question first, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.280 when are you going to extend the life of those 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.640 household batteries. I have a three year old and I 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.680 go through about a dozen double A batteries a week, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.800 and it's definitely not sustainable. So so these are the 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.640 kinds of things we are not thinking about. You know, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.800 we keep thinking, I mean, the big picture has to 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.400 be there, the carbon diox you know, you know, the 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.520 climate change, that's all. It has to be there. But 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.560 at the same time, we have to start thinking at 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.880 very grassroots level. So for example, in the US, we 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.080 have we use thirty billion batteries and that's about hundred 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.720 eighty thousand tons of waste. Does that include car batteries? 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.480 To Yeah, that's not that's the whole thing. Okay. Now 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.080 double A and triple A for example, and the technology 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.560 is mainly it's alkaline battery, which is like from the 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.600 nineteen sixties night I think that's when double A alkaline 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.600 batteries came into pictures. So we said, okay, I mean, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.080 you know, there's all this lithium battery work. Can we 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.360 do something without double A battery? You know, I mean 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.160 that's something to think about. Just like you said, you 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.920 know your house, you're going through, you know, hundreds of 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.880 these per year, and of the hazardous waste in this 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.880 country is basically household batteries. You know, we want to 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.440 think about that. So if we can extend the life 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.600 of the battery. For example, our research focuses on changing 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.720 the catolde you know, so that the life of the 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.280 battery is three times that a regular alkaline battery. Now 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.840 you have one of the waste, right, you know, instead 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.720 of you know, instead of what about a hundred thousand tons, 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:08.720 you know, you have thirty thousand tons. You know, at 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.280 least you've done something, you know, you know those things 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:16.200 like that use rechargeable. We do use rechargeable. Well, you know, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.040 tell them we're thinking about waste and you know, forgive 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:20.920 me again, I'm going back to I think about at 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.080 the beginning of my career and going and thinking about 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.600 yuck a mountain and you know, where do we put 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.600 the radioactive waste? And you know, visiting a nuclear power 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.160 plant and seeing the pools where they cool the rods, 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.080 and you know, and wearing a monitor and realizing that, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:36.959 you know, I could be at risk, Like it really 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.400 scared me. I'm going to be quite honest. But how 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.520 do we be smarter? What's the smart conversation around nuclear 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.280 that we need to be having, and what do we 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.080 think about when it comes to the waste, what do 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.640 we do with it? Yeah, I would say every source 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.680 of energy has risk associated with a coal for example, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.920 you know has in the past release sulfur dioxide and 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.480 acid rain things like that. Uh, coal to ailings can 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.559 lead to environmental issues. Burning of fossil fuels clearly has 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.320 impacts on on the environment. There's no free lunch in 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.880 the energy picture, and other countries have have taken on 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.360 the challenge of storing this waste, and there are new 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.400 reactor designs that are more efficient a burning up the 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.000 fuel and producing less waste. But ultimately we think fusion 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.640 energy could really replace vision energy. It's much more inherently safe, 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:31.679 doesn't have the chance of uncontrolled reactions. The fuel is ubiquitous, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.880 you can find it in seawater and in the ground. 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:38.360 Lithium and deuterium are are readily available, and it's it's 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.720 really could be a game changer, we think for for 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.920 energy production, but it's very technically challenging, and that's why 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.320 we've been working so long on that technology. Do you know, 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.120 we got about ninety seconds, Then we're gonna do some 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.400 news and then we're gonna come back. But connect coastal 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.840 resiliency to this, because we think about the idea of waste, 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.679 we think about climate change and think about the way 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.520 that burning coal actually contributes to cli to change, and 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.960 the coastal projects that you've had to do across Manhattan 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.520 to make sure that well Manhattan doesn't go under water. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.000 So I think the conversation about waste is an incredibly 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.040 relevant one, and it has to do beyond coastal measures 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.679 um but certainly how we live our life, and it's 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.640 certainly where we're spending our money, whether or not it's 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.559 going into our community, or whether it's going to ron, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.040 whether it's it takes five connections with shipping and excess 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.280 energy and excess waste, or if we can begin to 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.360 look at more closed loop systems and how we can 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.600 reduce waste. And a perfect example of that is nature, 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.960 and nature does that, it has its systems that if 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.920 we can imitate nature a bit more in coastal resiliency 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.520 certainly um but in our daily life and in our practice, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.600 so we can figure out ways to eliminate waste and 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.520 find purposes for every element of our interactions. That's a direction, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.480 that's a foot in the right direction. The food industry 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.520 says we can do it better. Well are people who 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.640 are innovators disruptors, and yet it's the Mega food UH 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.280 participants who seem to have a tougher time with it. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.000 Carol mass So along with Tim Stanovik, we're live at 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.080 New Jersey Institute of Technology, and we are live of 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.280 course on Bloomberg Radio, on YouTube and on Bloomberg Quicktake, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.640 and we're talking all about really going on all in 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.840 on green energy and climate adaptation and a great panel. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.800 Jonathan Man, our Deputy director for Research and Chief Research 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.440 Officer at p p p L the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.360 Also with us is Dina Prastos, founder of Indigo River 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.080 it's an environmental consulting firm, and Dr Sam Metro, Distinguished 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.840 Professor of Chemistry and Environmental Science at n j I 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.800 T in front of UH students here at n j 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.360 I T, and I want to ask a question. I 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:36.679 was going to go one place, but I'm gonna go 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.240 somewhere else. Are we doing better? Dina? When it comes 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.599 to climate change, sustainability, our impact on the environment, It 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.120 doesn't feel so, but tell me what you're seeing and 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.560 what you're hearing. So our awareness is increasing, which is 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.079 certainly a step in the right direction. We have new 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.080 we have access to newer technologies where we're able to 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.880 monitor and set metrics and set goals, and it's very 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.800 hard to manage you can't measure. So that is an 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.520 initial step and so we are certainly doing better, but 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.520 there's many ways that we can do even better. Jonathan, 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.839 what do you think. I agree we're increasing our awareness, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.760 and I think UH companies are waking up to the 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.640 need to generate a more sustainable environment and energy systems. 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.760 We see it particularly in the investment from the private 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.600 sector in fusion energy, many billions of dollars aging in 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.240 the last couple of years, showing interest in that that 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.760 that needs to grow more to really make fusion and reality. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.040 But that is a recognition that this is a potentially 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.559 very important part of our energy sector. You talk a 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.360 little more about that. That's really interesting to me, the 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.640 fact that private companies would be investing in something that 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.240 doesn't necessarily have public buy in at this point, if 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.120 you look at what's been happening across the country. I mean, 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.280 I'm from the central coast of California. They had to 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.280 fight to keep Diablo Cana Nuclear Power Plant open. It's 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.120 the last operating nuclear power plant there. I grew up being, 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.840 you know, with iodine pills in the cabinet because of 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.720 concerns over what happens if it melted down. I do 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.560 think the public is more are onto the differences between 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.120 fusion and fission. That fusion is potentially much safer and 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:10.079 has doesn't have the long radioactive waste and other another risks. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.240 And we need an all the above strategy means certainly 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.079 solar and wind power essential and other green technologies also, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.480 but we need these firm energy sources such as Vision now, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.280 and we want to have fusion replaced that later. I 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.720 think these private investors see the potential for fusion to 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.120 really have an impact on the energy economy, and they're 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.520 also side benefit the investments they get. Other high technologies 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.800 will on their way to fusion. Professor Mitchell, you know 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.560 one thing, uh, the conversation around fossil fuels and energy 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.240 usage and then the pivot to a more sustainable energy 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.000 future has really changed as a result of the Russian 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.320 invasion into Ukraine. And I'm curious about how you bring 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.600 that into your teachings about the impact that might have 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:59.079 on either expediting our move towards alternative energy or does 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.760 it slow it down down? How do you see it? 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.240 I think the you know, you saw the food shortage 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.080 for example, You see the problem with the you know, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.920 nuclear reactors being attacked, You see the water infrastructure being attacked. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.360 You know, that makes us aware that how you know, 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.880 we may have great technology, but we are so reliant 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.080 on natural resources. You know, which is energy, which is water, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.600 and the third is air. You know, UM, I would not. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.080 I mean, nobody is talking about the air pollution in um. 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.600 You know, in Ukraine. But I'm sure it's a huge thing. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.000 The water quality, it's a huge thing. So there's a 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.440 lot of discussion on climate change these days. But the 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.080 other big problem I see in the world is the 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.800 water shortage. You know, uh, you know what is also 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.000 known as the water draw You know, we are using 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.960 a lot more water than we are replenishing our you know, 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.600 our you know, groundwater, rivers and lakes and you know, 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.120 things like that. You must have seen the drought recently. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.560 The Mississippi River is kind of drying up in things 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.560 like that. So, I mean some of the statistics I 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.480 have seen, by twenty thirty will have sixty of the 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.600 water that we need. You know. Again, it's just like 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.040 the battery and everything else. You know, you've got to 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.880 reduce consumption, you know. Do we have a water crisis? 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.720 I think we do. Yeah. I think the water crisis 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.040 is much bigger than we think. Uh. And and and 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.880 it's it's it's not in the conversation right now, but 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.120 but it is. You know. For example, let's say we 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.600 use uh you know, um, I forget what the exact 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.880 number is, like a billion, you know, a ton of pesticide. 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.280 Where is it all going you know, it's all ending 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.160 up in our in our waters. You know, a lot 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.520 of it is ending up in our water. So even 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.360 for nuclear energy, you know, the water is going to 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.440 be a huge issue. For example, cooling towers, right, cooling 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.360 towers crystal. Yeah, so you are spraying the water to 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.080 cool your system, and as the water evaporates, you're getting 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.640 more saline water. What do you do with that? So 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.240 now that saline water is going to end up in rivers, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.560 in the ground, water, in lakes, and how do you 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.800 deal with that? You know, the desalination of this water 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:03.440 is very difficult. Like seawater is about thirty five ppm, 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.680 some of the cooling tower waters could be about three 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.920 or four times that of you know that of you know, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.920 the seawater, So it's very very difficult to desalinate. Same 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:13.960 with frac water. You know, much of the fracking is 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.000 done with millions of you know, gallons of water. And 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.440 for example, some of the frat sites, I mean it 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.440 varies the plant situation, So some of the frat sites 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.920 the water is tentimes saline than that of seawater. You know, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:27.400 how do you what do you do with that water? 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.000 You know, how do you treat It's pulled out every 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.000 metal out of the soil that you can think of, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.640 so it has every possible contabinants in it. You know. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.120 So these are huge problems that you know that we 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:39.280 are not really talking as much as we should. Yeah, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.880 it's pretty remarkable. I mean, going back to the California example, 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.080 I grew up with a drought and even in I 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.160 believe in Santa Barbara now there is a desalination plant 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:48.840 that has been brought back online. And I talked to 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:50.840 friends who lived there, and you know, I asked them 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.360 if they're worried about the water, and they're like, yeah, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.560 we got this decail plant. So um. You know you're 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.440 in you're in a marine architect of the background. As 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.000 a marine architect, how do you think about the water shortage? 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.720 It's something not something that you know, we typically think 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.800 about in the northeast part of the United States, But 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:07.720 as the professor said, it's not something we think about 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.760 with the Mississippi River either, And that's what we've been 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.359 talking about over the last week. Well, I quite literally 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.240 hit home. I live in New York in Rockland County 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.480 and we experienced to drought in through August and September. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.439 So it absolutely is an issue, whether or not you 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.199 want to classify it as a crisis, the awareness to 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.280 understand it as a vulnerability. We're talking about sustainability, the 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.520 ability to sustain, to sustain what, to sustain life. We 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.479 need water to live. Um so I identifying it as 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.240 a vulnerability vulnerability and focusing on it to make sure 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.040 that that's not something that's lost and that we can 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.439 continue to replenish our resources and have diverse means of 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.800 doing that. What I do wonder, Jonathan, like, is it 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.679 a case of innovating and disrupting our way out of it? 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.119 Or is it also a case of us stop buying 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.760 so much stuff, stop you know, turning off the water, 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.800 like changing our mindset because not all of this stuff 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.879 is going to last maybe forever. Certainly, conservation is a 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:00.600 big part of it. I mean, if you're seeing that 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.000 already in the Southwest as certain states or you know, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.879 losing their access to water and it's impacting agriculture and 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.120 that impacts our food access throughout the country. Not necessarily 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.359 relevant to our fusion research, but certainly climate change and 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.000 the long term impacts on water availability is going to 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.040 impact potentially every country and continent on the planets, so 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.320 we need to do with it now. Is water though, 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.920 concerns about what are affecting your research at all or 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.480 how you're thinking about it? Not really, We have other 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.600 supply chain issues. Water New Jersey is actually pretty wet 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.280 this year, so I think I think we're okay, but 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.880 not not directly. But there are other issues. But but 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.320 you know these kinds of energy sources. If you want 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.680 to do salonization, where is the power going to come from? 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.199 It could come from solar or even from fusion, or 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.320 it'll come from the nuclear power plant ninety miles north 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.600 of the Decail plant. Right. Hey, forgive me because and 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.119 I'm not going to throw this question at any one 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:49.919 of you in particular because it's a little out of 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.680 what you study. But we're a business and market show here, 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.640 and what I find particularly fascinating is that we're not 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.919 necessarily seeing this type of I don't want to use 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:01.879 the word catastrophe, but that's how I think about it. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.360 When I see those pictures of the American West, we're 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.359 not necessarily seeing that priced into real estate at this point, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.760 Like we're not necessarily seeing people say, well, I don't 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.439 want to move to this house in California, which, by 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:14.840 the way, mit surpassed Germany soon as the fourth largest 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.240 economy in the world, because there's a drought there. Um, 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.560 feel free anyone to weigh And why is that I 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.080 want to buy in Iowa because that'll be beachfront property. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.639 So exactly like what's going on here? You laugh? But 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.879 should we be thinking about this? No? I was just 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.560 thinking of Elon Musk and his relocation from California to Texas. 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.960 So some people are leaving California, maybe for tax reasons, right, 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.800 it made Texas and housing prices, but Texas isn't pretty expensive. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:49.840 Isn't an oasis of um, you know, moisture and water? Right? Uh? Yeah, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.120 it does have its own water challenge. I know personally 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.399 in people who really appreciated moving to New Jersey to 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.280 get away from the fires and the droughts who have 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.120