Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Always love
Speaker 1: coming here. I learned so much and get an idea
Speaker 1: of what a student population, what an institution that focuses
Speaker 1: on things like sustainability, energy, climate engineering, so much more,
Speaker 1: which is so important to our world. And I have
Speaker 1: to say and getting ready for this discussion, Tim, I
Speaker 1: came across. I was doing some research. Uh, and we
Speaker 1: were doing research and there was something from Accenture that
Speaker 1: was entitled the end of abundance thinking empty shelves during
Speaker 1: the pandemic. You think about supply chain problems that we
Speaker 1: had during the pandemic still do pushback on globalizations going on,
Speaker 1: higher energy costs, shortages and services and things that we
Speaker 1: took for granted have resulted in a rethink when it
Speaker 1: comes to abundance thinking. So this last hour we are
Speaker 1: going all in unsustainability. We've got a great panel lined
Speaker 1: up this afternoon joining us. We've got some Metra who
Speaker 1: is Distinguished Professor of Chemistry and Environmental Science here at
Speaker 1: the New Jersey Institute of Technology. To his right, we
Speaker 1: also have a joining us Jonathan Menard, Deputy Director for
Speaker 1: Research and Chief Research Officer at PPL Princeton and Plasma
Speaker 1: Physics Lab. That's p p p L three piece and
Speaker 1: no holding up three fingers there. And we've also got
Speaker 1: joining as Dina Prasto's founder of Indigo River. It's an
Speaker 1: environmental consulting firm. It's good to have you all with
Speaker 1: us this afternoon. Dina, I want to start with you
Speaker 1: and just give us big picture here. How you are
Speaker 1: thinking at Indigo River about um when it comes to
Speaker 1: energy and climate adaptation? How should we all be thinking
Speaker 1: about it? So? I attended n j A t nearly
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and if you would have told me
Speaker 1: I had to I was going to found a company
Speaker 1: focused on climate adaptation through means of sustainability and resiliency,
Speaker 1: I would have said, what does that mean? What does
Speaker 1: that look like? Sorry? Were you even talking about climate
Speaker 1: resiliency or sustainability twenty years ago? Sustainability, surface level sustainability,
Speaker 1: absolutely resiliency. No, I didn't quite understand what the difference
Speaker 1: was inn in today. I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: professionals in in consulting don't know the difference. And all
Speaker 1: I'll sum it up very briefly to say they're two
Speaker 1: sides at the same coin. And when we talk about sustainability,
Speaker 1: we are looking at human kinds impact on the environment,
Speaker 1: and the flip side of that is when we look
Speaker 1: at resiliency, we look at the environment's impact on the
Speaker 1: built world. So I actually in mice practice focus primarily
Speaker 1: on waterfront infrastructure, and what we look at most often
Speaker 1: is the environment's impact on that infrastructure. So I look
Speaker 1: at resiliency, but it is an inextricably linked to sustainability. Donathan,
Speaker 1: come on in on this conversation. How do you think
Speaker 1: about resiliency. I think fusion power fusion energy that we're
Speaker 1: working at our lab has the potential to provide baseload energy.
Speaker 1: One of the challenges we see with some of the
Speaker 1: renewables or with wind and solar for example, as they
Speaker 1: can be intermittent, they depend on, you know, the power
Speaker 1: coming from the sun to blow the wind and solar
Speaker 1: energy and nuclear power in particular could form a or
Speaker 1: a source of energy that we need to drive electricity
Speaker 1: and other other industries that we have they rely on
Speaker 1: so much so that that's our real role at the
Speaker 1: Plasma Physical Lab as advancing fusion energy and studying the
Speaker 1: plasma physics. That's really good foundation of the energy. So
Speaker 1: you're using fusion energy as a synonym for nuclear. You're
Speaker 1: using the terms interchangeably, right it is. So it's funny.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys followed Josh Wolfe on
Speaker 1: Twitter as a venture capitalist at Lux and he argues
Speaker 1: that we need to rebrand nuclear power and I call
Speaker 1: it elemental power because nuclear has this terrible connotation. What
Speaker 1: do you make of that it has a brand image?
Speaker 1: It does? I mean, think about right, you know, you've
Speaker 1: got Fukushima, You've got three Mile Island here in the US,
Speaker 1: and then of course Chernobyl in the nineteen eighties, and
Speaker 1: it's very mature. I was actually trained as a nuclear
Speaker 1: engineer and got got the bug for fusion looking at
Speaker 1: some of the waste concerns, safety concerns for fission nuclear power.
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, the safety issues associated with fission and energy
Speaker 1: are quite manageable and really is an important source of
Speaker 1: energy and electricity. For example, of our electricity in the
Speaker 1: United States comes from fission power and nuclear energy. Frances Se,
Speaker 1: South Korea just under. So it's a very important part
Speaker 1: of the energy portfolio, and I think it's one of
Speaker 1: the few options we have for a few firm energy
Speaker 1: uh to really take up the baseload energy that we
Speaker 1: need in our in our economy and to empower the world.
Speaker 1: So I'm come on in on this conversation. You're teaching chemistry,
Speaker 1: you're teaching environmental science here at NJ. I t how
Speaker 1: much I mean, let's let's piggyback on what we've been
Speaker 1: talking about. I am shocked how much we've talked about
Speaker 1: nuclear energy here because it doesn't come up a lot.
Speaker 1: Everybody's solar. So we like just closed Indian Point Nuclear
Speaker 1: Power plant here in the Tristate area. So there's a
Speaker 1: perception problem too. I think, yeah, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: really an expert in nuclear energy, you know, but talking
Speaker 1: about the big pitch of sustainability, I think, um, you know,
Speaker 1: but is it part of that, like do we need
Speaker 1: to think about it? Is? Oh? Definitely, yeah, definitely, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean definitely, I mean, you know, if you factor
Speaker 1: in the safety issues, and if we can really factor
Speaker 1: in the safety issues, uh, and we can have safety
Speaker 1: clear energy. Absolutely yeah, definitely. Well, expand to in terms
Speaker 1: of your teachings for the students who are here, maybe
Speaker 1: some of them in this room and in general, when
Speaker 1: you think about you know, sustainability, when you think about, um,
Speaker 1: the climate, climate adaptation, where do you go with your
Speaker 1: students and how do you tell them to think about
Speaker 1: you know, it's five years from now, ten years and
Speaker 1: now that we've got to make sure that we can
Speaker 1: power the world. Um. You know. For me, sustainability is
Speaker 1: like you know, they are saying that, you know, think globally,
Speaker 1: act locally. So sustainability starts from your morning coffee cup,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean you take by a Starbucks coffee.
Speaker 1: Do you think how many trees when goes into making
Speaker 1: you know, all those Starbucks coffees for example, how much
Speaker 1: water pollution is coming from all those coffee cups? You know,
Speaker 1: things like that. So then you dig down to every
Speaker 1: little thing and seeing you know, what is happening. So
Speaker 1: for example, let's say hand sanitizer. Right, typical hand sanitizer
Speaker 1: is about profile alcohol three water. Now, the waste water
Speaker 1: from the hand sanitizer is seven percent suprofile alcohol. So
Speaker 1: what do we do with that seven percent is profile alcohol?
Speaker 1: We mix it with solvents and we burn it. So
Speaker 1: so there we produce carbon dioxide. Now, is there a
Speaker 1: way we can take that seven percent isoprofile alcohol and
Speaker 1: concertated to So now it's back being a you know,
Speaker 1: hand sanitize. And that's the kind of thinking we need
Speaker 1: at a grassroots level. This is what I think, Professor Matter,
Speaker 1: we're gonna I want to broaden it out to where
Speaker 1: batteries come into this conversation because I know a lot
Speaker 1: of your research has to do with increasing the life
Speaker 1: of standard household batteries. But I have a personal question first,
Speaker 1: when are you going to extend the life of those
Speaker 1: household batteries. I have a three year old and I
Speaker 1: go through about a dozen double A batteries a week,
Speaker 1: and it's definitely not sustainable. So so these are the
Speaker 1: kinds of things we are not thinking about. You know,
Speaker 1: we keep thinking, I mean, the big picture has to
Speaker 1: be there, the carbon diox you know, you know, the
Speaker 1: climate change, that's all. It has to be there. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, we have to start thinking at
Speaker 1: very grassroots level. So for example, in the US, we
Speaker 1: have we use thirty billion batteries and that's about hundred
Speaker 1: eighty thousand tons of waste. Does that include car batteries?
Speaker 1: To Yeah, that's not that's the whole thing. Okay. Now
Speaker 1: double A and triple A for example, and the technology
Speaker 1: is mainly it's alkaline battery, which is like from the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties night I think that's when double A alkaline
Speaker 1: batteries came into pictures. So we said, okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, there's all this lithium battery work. Can we
Speaker 1: do something without double A battery? You know, I mean
Speaker 1: that's something to think about. Just like you said, you
Speaker 1: know your house, you're going through, you know, hundreds of
Speaker 1: these per year, and of the hazardous waste in this
Speaker 1: country is basically household batteries. You know, we want to
Speaker 1: think about that. So if we can extend the life
Speaker 1: of the battery. For example, our research focuses on changing
Speaker 1: the catolde you know, so that the life of the
Speaker 1: battery is three times that a regular alkaline battery. Now
Speaker 1: you have one of the waste, right, you know, instead
Speaker 1: of you know, instead of what about a hundred thousand tons,
Speaker 1: you know, you have thirty thousand tons. You know, at
Speaker 1: least you've done something, you know, you know those things
Speaker 1: like that use rechargeable. We do use rechargeable. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: tell them we're thinking about waste and you know, forgive
Speaker 1: me again, I'm going back to I think about at
Speaker 1: the beginning of my career and going and thinking about
Speaker 1: yuck a mountain and you know, where do we put
Speaker 1: the radioactive waste? And you know, visiting a nuclear power
Speaker 1: plant and seeing the pools where they cool the rods,
Speaker 1: and you know, and wearing a monitor and realizing that,
Speaker 1: you know, I could be at risk, Like it really
Speaker 1: scared me. I'm going to be quite honest. But how
Speaker 1: do we be smarter? What's the smart conversation around nuclear
Speaker 1: that we need to be having, and what do we
Speaker 1: think about when it comes to the waste, what do
Speaker 1: we do with it? Yeah, I would say every source
Speaker 1: of energy has risk associated with a coal for example,
Speaker 1: you know has in the past release sulfur dioxide and
Speaker 1: acid rain things like that. Uh, coal to ailings can
Speaker 1: lead to environmental issues. Burning of fossil fuels clearly has
Speaker 1: impacts on on the environment. There's no free lunch in
Speaker 1: the energy picture, and other countries have have taken on
Speaker 1: the challenge of storing this waste, and there are new
Speaker 1: reactor designs that are more efficient a burning up the
Speaker 1: fuel and producing less waste. But ultimately we think fusion
Speaker 1: energy could really replace vision energy. It's much more inherently safe,
Speaker 1: doesn't have the chance of uncontrolled reactions. The fuel is ubiquitous,
Speaker 1: you can find it in seawater and in the ground.
Speaker 1: Lithium and deuterium are are readily available, and it's it's
Speaker 1: really could be a game changer, we think for for
Speaker 1: energy production, but it's very technically challenging, and that's why
Speaker 1: we've been working so long on that technology. Do you know,
Speaker 1: we got about ninety seconds, Then we're gonna do some
Speaker 1: news and then we're gonna come back. But connect coastal
Speaker 1: resiliency to this, because we think about the idea of waste,
Speaker 1: we think about climate change and think about the way
Speaker 1: that burning coal actually contributes to cli to change, and
Speaker 1: the coastal projects that you've had to do across Manhattan
Speaker 1: to make sure that well Manhattan doesn't go under water.
Speaker 1: So I think the conversation about waste is an incredibly
Speaker 1: relevant one, and it has to do beyond coastal measures
Speaker 1: um but certainly how we live our life, and it's
Speaker 1: certainly where we're spending our money, whether or not it's
Speaker 1: going into our community, or whether it's going to ron,
Speaker 1: whether it's it takes five connections with shipping and excess
Speaker 1: energy and excess waste, or if we can begin to
Speaker 1: look at more closed loop systems and how we can
Speaker 1: reduce waste. And a perfect example of that is nature,
Speaker 1: and nature does that, it has its systems that if
Speaker 1: we can imitate nature a bit more in coastal resiliency
Speaker 1: certainly um but in our daily life and in our practice,
Speaker 1: so we can figure out ways to eliminate waste and
Speaker 1: find purposes for every element of our interactions. That's a direction,
Speaker 1: that's a foot in the right direction. The food industry
Speaker 1: says we can do it better. Well are people who
Speaker 1: are innovators disruptors, and yet it's the Mega food UH
Speaker 1: participants who seem to have a tougher time with it.
Speaker 1: Carol mass So along with Tim Stanovik, we're live at
Speaker 1: New Jersey Institute of Technology, and we are live of
Speaker 1: course on Bloomberg Radio, on YouTube and on Bloomberg Quicktake,
Speaker 1: and we're talking all about really going on all in
Speaker 1: on green energy and climate adaptation and a great panel.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Man, our Deputy director for Research and Chief Research
Speaker 1: Officer at p p p L the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab.
Speaker 1: Also with us is Dina Prastos, founder of Indigo River
Speaker 1: it's an environmental consulting firm, and Dr Sam Metro, Distinguished
Speaker 1: Professor of Chemistry and Environmental Science at n j I
Speaker 1: T in front of UH students here at n j
Speaker 1: I T, and I want to ask a question. I
Speaker 1: was going to go one place, but I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: somewhere else. Are we doing better? Dina? When it comes
Speaker 1: to climate change, sustainability, our impact on the environment, It
Speaker 1: doesn't feel so, but tell me what you're seeing and
Speaker 1: what you're hearing. So our awareness is increasing, which is
Speaker 1: certainly a step in the right direction. We have new
Speaker 1: we have access to newer technologies where we're able to
Speaker 1: monitor and set metrics and set goals, and it's very
Speaker 1: hard to manage you can't measure. So that is an
Speaker 1: initial step and so we are certainly doing better, but
Speaker 1: there's many ways that we can do even better. Jonathan,
Speaker 1: what do you think. I agree we're increasing our awareness,
Speaker 1: and I think UH companies are waking up to the
Speaker 1: need to generate a more sustainable environment and energy systems.
Speaker 1: We see it particularly in the investment from the private
Speaker 1: sector in fusion energy, many billions of dollars aging in
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, showing interest in that that
Speaker 1: that needs to grow more to really make fusion and reality.
Speaker 1: But that is a recognition that this is a potentially
Speaker 1: very important part of our energy sector. You talk a
Speaker 1: little more about that. That's really interesting to me, the
Speaker 1: fact that private companies would be investing in something that
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have public buy in at this point, if
Speaker 1: you look at what's been happening across the country. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm from the central coast of California. They had to
Speaker 1: fight to keep Diablo Cana Nuclear Power Plant open. It's
Speaker 1: the last operating nuclear power plant there. I grew up being,
Speaker 1: you know, with iodine pills in the cabinet because of
Speaker 1: concerns over what happens if it melted down. I do
Speaker 1: think the public is more are onto the differences between
Speaker 1: fusion and fission. That fusion is potentially much safer and
Speaker 1: has doesn't have the long radioactive waste and other another risks.
Speaker 1: And we need an all the above strategy means certainly
Speaker 1: solar and wind power essential and other green technologies also,
Speaker 1: but we need these firm energy sources such as Vision now,
Speaker 1: and we want to have fusion replaced that later. I
Speaker 1: think these private investors see the potential for fusion to
Speaker 1: really have an impact on the energy economy, and they're
Speaker 1: also side benefit the investments they get. Other high technologies
Speaker 1: will on their way to fusion. Professor Mitchell, you know
Speaker 1: one thing, uh, the conversation around fossil fuels and energy
Speaker 1: usage and then the pivot to a more sustainable energy
Speaker 1: future has really changed as a result of the Russian
Speaker 1: invasion into Ukraine. And I'm curious about how you bring
Speaker 1: that into your teachings about the impact that might have
Speaker 1: on either expediting our move towards alternative energy or does
Speaker 1: it slow it down down? How do you see it?
Speaker 1: I think the you know, you saw the food shortage
Speaker 1: for example, You see the problem with the you know,
Speaker 1: nuclear reactors being attacked, You see the water infrastructure being attacked.
Speaker 1: You know, that makes us aware that how you know,
Speaker 1: we may have great technology, but we are so reliant
Speaker 1: on natural resources. You know, which is energy, which is water,
Speaker 1: and the third is air. You know, UM, I would not.
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody is talking about the air pollution in um.
Speaker 1: You know, in Ukraine. But I'm sure it's a huge thing.
Speaker 1: The water quality, it's a huge thing. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of discussion on climate change these days. But the
Speaker 1: other big problem I see in the world is the
Speaker 1: water shortage. You know, uh, you know what is also
Speaker 1: known as the water draw You know, we are using
Speaker 1: a lot more water than we are replenishing our you know,
Speaker 1: our you know, groundwater, rivers and lakes and you know,
Speaker 1: things like that. You must have seen the drought recently.
Speaker 1: The Mississippi River is kind of drying up in things
Speaker 1: like that. So, I mean some of the statistics I
Speaker 1: have seen, by twenty thirty will have sixty of the
Speaker 1: water that we need. You know. Again, it's just like
Speaker 1: the battery and everything else. You know, you've got to
Speaker 1: reduce consumption, you know. Do we have a water crisis?
Speaker 1: I think we do. Yeah. I think the water crisis
Speaker 1: is much bigger than we think. Uh. And and and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not in the conversation right now, but
Speaker 1: but it is. You know. For example, let's say we
Speaker 1: use uh you know, um, I forget what the exact
Speaker 1: number is, like a billion, you know, a ton of pesticide.
Speaker 1: Where is it all going you know, it's all ending
Speaker 1: up in our in our waters. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of it is ending up in our water. So even
Speaker 1: for nuclear energy, you know, the water is going to
Speaker 1: be a huge issue. For example, cooling towers, right, cooling
Speaker 1: towers crystal. Yeah, so you are spraying the water to
Speaker 1: cool your system, and as the water evaporates, you're getting
Speaker 1: more saline water. What do you do with that? So
Speaker 1: now that saline water is going to end up in rivers,
Speaker 1: in the ground, water, in lakes, and how do you
Speaker 1: deal with that? You know, the desalination of this water
Speaker 1: is very difficult. Like seawater is about thirty five ppm,
Speaker 1: some of the cooling tower waters could be about three
Speaker 1: or four times that of you know that of you know,
Speaker 1: the seawater, So it's very very difficult to desalinate. Same
Speaker 1: with frac water. You know, much of the fracking is
Speaker 1: done with millions of you know, gallons of water. And
Speaker 1: for example, some of the frat sites, I mean it
Speaker 1: varies the plant situation, So some of the frat sites
Speaker 1: the water is tentimes saline than that of seawater. You know,
Speaker 1: how do you what do you do with that water?
Speaker 1: You know, how do you treat It's pulled out every
Speaker 1: metal out of the soil that you can think of,
Speaker 1: so it has every possible contabinants in it. You know.
Speaker 1: So these are huge problems that you know that we
Speaker 1: are not really talking as much as we should. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty remarkable. I mean, going back to the California example,
Speaker 1: I grew up with a drought and even in I
Speaker 1: believe in Santa Barbara now there is a desalination plant
Speaker 1: that has been brought back online. And I talked to
Speaker 1: friends who lived there, and you know, I asked them
Speaker 1: if they're worried about the water, and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we got this decail plant. So um. You know you're
Speaker 1: in you're in a marine architect of the background. As
Speaker 1: a marine architect, how do you think about the water shortage?
Speaker 1: It's something not something that you know, we typically think
Speaker 1: about in the northeast part of the United States, But
Speaker 1: as the professor said, it's not something we think about
Speaker 1: with the Mississippi River either, And that's what we've been
Speaker 1: talking about over the last week. Well, I quite literally
Speaker 1: hit home. I live in New York in Rockland County
Speaker 1: and we experienced to drought in through August and September.
Speaker 1: So it absolutely is an issue, whether or not you
Speaker 1: want to classify it as a crisis, the awareness to
Speaker 1: understand it as a vulnerability. We're talking about sustainability, the
Speaker 1: ability to sustain, to sustain what, to sustain life. We
Speaker 1: need water to live. Um so I identifying it as
Speaker 1: a vulnerability vulnerability and focusing on it to make sure
Speaker 1: that that's not something that's lost and that we can
Speaker 1: continue to replenish our resources and have diverse means of
Speaker 1: doing that. What I do wonder, Jonathan, like, is it
Speaker 1: a case of innovating and disrupting our way out of it?
Speaker 1: Or is it also a case of us stop buying
Speaker 1: so much stuff, stop you know, turning off the water,
Speaker 1: like changing our mindset because not all of this stuff
Speaker 1: is going to last maybe forever. Certainly, conservation is a
Speaker 1: big part of it. I mean, if you're seeing that
Speaker 1: already in the Southwest as certain states or you know,
Speaker 1: losing their access to water and it's impacting agriculture and
Speaker 1: that impacts our food access throughout the country. Not necessarily
Speaker 1: relevant to our fusion research, but certainly climate change and
Speaker 1: the long term impacts on water availability is going to
Speaker 1: impact potentially every country and continent on the planets, so
Speaker 1: we need to do with it now. Is water though,
Speaker 1: concerns about what are affecting your research at all or
Speaker 1: how you're thinking about it? Not really, We have other
Speaker 1: supply chain issues. Water New Jersey is actually pretty wet
Speaker 1: this year, so I think I think we're okay, but
Speaker 1: not not directly. But there are other issues. But but
Speaker 1: you know these kinds of energy sources. If you want
Speaker 1: to do salonization, where is the power going to come from?
Speaker 1: It could come from solar or even from fusion, or
Speaker 1: it'll come from the nuclear power plant ninety miles north
Speaker 1: of the Decail plant. Right. Hey, forgive me because and
Speaker 1: I'm not going to throw this question at any one
Speaker 1: of you in particular because it's a little out of
Speaker 1: what you study. But we're a business and market show here,
Speaker 1: and what I find particularly fascinating is that we're not
Speaker 1: necessarily seeing this type of I don't want to use
Speaker 1: the word catastrophe, but that's how I think about it.
Speaker 1: When I see those pictures of the American West, we're
Speaker 1: not necessarily seeing that priced into real estate at this point,
Speaker 1: Like we're not necessarily seeing people say, well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to move to this house in California, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, mit surpassed Germany soon as the fourth largest
Speaker 1: economy in the world, because there's a drought there. Um,
Speaker 1: feel free anyone to weigh And why is that I
Speaker 1: want to buy in Iowa because that'll be beachfront property.
Speaker 1: So exactly like what's going on here? You laugh? But
Speaker 1: should we be thinking about this? No? I was just
Speaker 1: thinking of Elon Musk and his relocation from California to Texas.
Speaker 1: So some people are leaving California, maybe for tax reasons, right,
Speaker 1: it made Texas and housing prices, but Texas isn't pretty expensive.
Speaker 1: Isn't an oasis of um, you know, moisture and water? Right? Uh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does have its own water challenge. I know personally
Speaker 1: in people who really appreciated moving to New Jersey to
Speaker 1: get away from the fires and the droughts who have
Speaker 1: come to our institution, I think it really is having
Speaker 1: impact on real people's lives, and it's not fully priced
Speaker 1: into our economy yet, but it's coming. We did say
Speaker 1: in the break, we're gonna talk about your work, and
Speaker 1: so let's go there. So let me start with you, Dina.
Speaker 1: Talk to us about the work that you guys are
Speaker 1: doing when it comes to sustainability, uh, climate adaptation. What
Speaker 1: are the things that are kind of front and center
Speaker 1: that people maybe and it's in its early stage, but
Speaker 1: maybe might be something that's more than norm going forward. Sure,
Speaker 1: So we we work on projects that range in in
Speaker 1: what their programmatic uses are. We work on ferry terminals,
Speaker 1: we work on marinas, we work on sea walls, on bulkheads,
Speaker 1: UM and port facilities. And one of the emerging markets
Speaker 1: that is an experience in New York and the New
Speaker 1: York Harbor right now is this incentive for offshore wind
Speaker 1: and the entire pipeline connected to that, so offshore wind
Speaker 1: ports and marshaling yards and things to get those rigs
Speaker 1: set up in the next you know, three to five years.
Speaker 1: And so that is UM a newer typology that we
Speaker 1: are working on. It's not new. Port facilities have existed,
Speaker 1: but the mechanics that go into assembling offshore wind turbines
Speaker 1: is newer for this locale. So that is something that
Speaker 1: we are experiencing growing through UM and and setting up
Speaker 1: the workforce development programs as well for who will be
Speaker 1: manning these offshore reports and and UM areas offshore Jonathan,
Speaker 1: offshore wind, how do you think about that in certain
Speaker 1: terms of solving the power crisis? Are complementing what you're
Speaker 1: doing with fish and infusion. From what I've read, I
Speaker 1: think it could be very advantageous in parts of the
Speaker 1: country where that wind is blowing. Unfortunately, in New Jersey
Speaker 1: is one of those other areas as well. I think
Speaker 1: it's an important part of the mix. I think there
Speaker 1: are challenges with getting the grid systems to work to
Speaker 1: get the energy from that ocean area back into the state,
Speaker 1: but I know psn G is doing some work on
Speaker 1: that area. Jonathan talked to a little bit more too
Speaker 1: about what you guys are doing at your lab, right,
Speaker 1: So what do we do? We take hydrogen and isotopes
Speaker 1: of it's a regular hydrogen and heavy hydrogen and heat
Speaker 1: it to amazing temperatures hundred million degree temperatures. And the
Speaker 1: reason we do that is to give these particles enough
Speaker 1: energy that they fuse together and then have a nuclear
Speaker 1: reaction that generates other particles and energy that's more energy
Speaker 1: out than we put in by a substantial margin. Or
Speaker 1: our goals to take that excess energy from equals mc
Speaker 1: squared and converted into electricity or heat or things that
Speaker 1: the com power industry. So we've actually made those temperatures,
Speaker 1: including at our lab at PPL, and any given time
Speaker 1: when those experiments are running, it's the hottest place on
Speaker 1: the planet and maybe even in the solar system. So
Speaker 1: that has been one of our successes. But we need
Speaker 1: to learn how to sustain those reactions and drive down
Speaker 1: the cost of making these fusion conditions, and that's where
Speaker 1: a lot of our innovations are going into. So what
Speaker 1: does that timeline look like in terms of driving down costs?
Speaker 1: Give us some perspective on how much it cost to
Speaker 1: produce energy like that. Yeah, one of the most important
Speaker 1: things that's happened in our community in the last years.
Speaker 1: There's a White House meeting, a really white initiative or
Speaker 1: decadal goal of getting fusion more deployed within the world.
Speaker 1: So we're looking at roughly ten years minimum to get
Speaker 1: to a system that can produce net electricity. That's really
Speaker 1: our goal. In increasing the investment to do that and
Speaker 1: then rolling out after that into theties, we think to
Speaker 1: try to get it to penetrate into the energy market.
Speaker 1: That's our goal. One other question, and I want to
Speaker 1: bring some back in. But are you invited to like
Speaker 1: the cop events. Well, you know this this year we were.
Speaker 1: I didn't go personally, but I know a fusion years
Speaker 1: you've gone. So it's it's part of the conversation that's
Speaker 1: going coming, coming in, getting more real. For sure. Some
Speaker 1: talked to us to about some of the things that
Speaker 1: you know are really top of mind for you, that
Speaker 1: you think about, um when it comes to this space. UM.
Speaker 1: For me, you know, I think sustainability in general is
Speaker 1: a very important thing. You know, before we had a
Speaker 1: sort of technology for profit, technology for business. I think
Speaker 1: that in the future it should be technology for sustainability,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, and shareholders are going to buy intonet.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a that's a different question. Uh So
Speaker 1: most of my work is focused on sustainability. Battery is
Speaker 1: one we talked about and that at least that i'd
Speaker 1: got into the battery, I had the same observation that
Speaker 1: you had. You know, we're throwing out all these double
Speaker 1: edge battery is going to be make the life of
Speaker 1: the battery. Udge, I'm going to get chargeable rechargeable. The
Speaker 1: rechargeable has its own issues and anyway, let's not Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's So that's one area of you know, that's
Speaker 1: one area of research that I have. The other I'm
Speaker 1: interested in is water. You know, um, and I find
Speaker 1: like and several things about water. Can we take a
Speaker 1: hazardous waste? You know, the hand sanitizer I was talking
Speaker 1: to you about, So what do we do today? For example,
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical Let's say pharmaceutical you make them with something like
Speaker 1: ten percent a thile aestate in water and then the
Speaker 1: whole you know, thing is thrown out, you know. And
Speaker 1: then I said, there are two ways to treat it.
Speaker 1: One is you treated as a hazardous waste. The other
Speaker 1: is you burn it. You mixed with people and burn it.
Speaker 1: So now you're generating a lot of C two that
Speaker 1: is unnecessary. So I'm thinking, is there a way I
Speaker 1: can recover the thile acetate? So I save C O
Speaker 1: two and I save thile act you know, what is
Speaker 1: also known as circular economy. And the other thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, like the desalination work that I told you
Speaker 1: about this, you know, the the very fat water for example,
Speaker 1: very high salinity water, and these are all based on
Speaker 1: membrane technology. So basically, if how to define some of
Speaker 1: a big chunk of my research, it is a membrane
Speaker 1: technology for sustainability when it comes to water and hazardous waste,
Speaker 1: you know, So so that you know that's that's the
Speaker 1: direction I'm going into. So, like I said, it has
Speaker 1: to be fancy science, you know, to get funded these days,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it can be geared towards sustainability.
Speaker 1: What would make you know, when it comes to the
Speaker 1: move towards sustainability in a greener world, what what would
Speaker 1: make it move faster? At this point, like you know,
Speaker 1: we come at it from certainly a public market space,
Speaker 1: and you know, if there's money to be made, investment
Speaker 1: dollars will flow there um. And so it's interesting. And
Speaker 1: the feeling is that when it comes to things like
Speaker 1: e s g. Environmental, social, you know, and and governance
Speaker 1: that unless there is a financial metric attached to it,
Speaker 1: when a company reports it's core, they report you know,
Speaker 1: results that it's hard to get maybe investors really really
Speaker 1: excited about it. But I'm just wondering what you think
Speaker 1: will help you in the work that you're doing, whether
Speaker 1: it's governments doing certain things, investors doing certain things. Do
Speaker 1: you know, do you have some thoughts on that that
Speaker 1: would help you expedite what you're working on or is
Speaker 1: it already happening? Sure, I think Um, going back to
Speaker 1: what I said before about watching where your money goes
Speaker 1: certainly plays a big part um. And it's it's very
Speaker 1: hard to argue with capitalist society that values profits, the
Speaker 1: financial profits, um. But the conversation that we're having about
Speaker 1: sustainability is an existential one and its profits don't matter
Speaker 1: if we don't exist in the future. So it's thinking
Speaker 1: about descendants. I'm sorry, just say profits don't matter if
Speaker 1: we don't exist and the right and so this this
Speaker 1: is an existential crisis, um. And we see what our
Speaker 1: impacts are doing to the environment and we see that
Speaker 1: it will not sustain and sustainability is actually a pretty
Speaker 1: low bar to set. We're talking about net zero. We
Speaker 1: should be talking about positive benefiting the world. How are
Speaker 1: we leaving at right? Better? So what's the way that
Speaker 1: we can do better? Dina? I mean, does it come
Speaker 1: down to tax dollars being spent on government programs and
Speaker 1: then government doling out that money to really accelerate this
Speaker 1: type of change? I mean, do you need an all
Speaker 1: of government approach? So that that certainly plays a part
Speaker 1: um I think it does come to the mindset of
Speaker 1: the individual and where they're spending their money um and
Speaker 1: where they're incentivized to spend it, and how they're taxed
Speaker 1: on their money. UM. So it can be working down
Speaker 1: that way. One thing I do sometimes kind of as
Speaker 1: a gut check in a reality check is I grew
Speaker 1: up in Alaska and we would go camping frequently, and
Speaker 1: it's a news flash every time you go out into
Speaker 1: the wilderness and you don't have connectivity to power, to
Speaker 1: running water. We take for granted a lot of what
Speaker 1: we have and a lot of what society has set
Speaker 1: up for us to be very easy to access, and
Speaker 1: as a result, we we take it for granted and
Speaker 1: we waste it. Um. So I think if we can
Speaker 1: all kind of have that cut cut check in reality
Speaker 1: check of what is our impact, because we might not
Speaker 1: be thinking that we're leaving a negative impact on this world,
Speaker 1: but just by participating in much of the way that
Speaker 1: society has been constructed, we are. Um. So there's there's
Speaker 1: that kind of removing ourselves from the current system just
Speaker 1: to see how much we do rely on the systems
Speaker 1: that have been set up for us and what their
Speaker 1: impact is. On the environment. You know, I'm just I've
Speaker 1: got a pretty good awareness, but yet I still get
Speaker 1: in my car and fill up my tank and I'm
Speaker 1: contributing to, you know, the bad part of climate jation.
Speaker 1: What what else do you guys need in terms of
Speaker 1: what you're doing that would would help you in the
Speaker 1: process and maybe expedited. I do think government resources are
Speaker 1: very important, especially for the basic science and also the
Speaker 1: technology development to advance tools for sustainability. You know, we
Speaker 1: talked about batteries. The lithium batteries in your electric vehicle
Speaker 1: eventually are going to wear out, so we need to
Speaker 1: come up with more resilient, longer life batteries. And there's
Speaker 1: a lot of investment from Department of Energy, which funds
Speaker 1: most of our research and Natural Science Foundation as well
Speaker 1: into our and dr It's like that more efficient solar panels,
Speaker 1: more efficient wind turbines, material science, and for the fusion side,
Speaker 1: investment both from the public sector and the private sector.
Speaker 1: Really the poet isn't it coming in? It's starting to
Speaker 1: grow in. Other countries are are really investing in it
Speaker 1: much more heavily than we are. I mean, the US
Speaker 1: is blessed with quite a bit of its own energy.
Speaker 1: Many other countries Europe, Japan, and South Korea are not
Speaker 1: so blessed that way, and they've invested more in some
Speaker 1: of these other technologies. Who's who's investing the best right now,
Speaker 1: arguably Europe and you can see that, yeah, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: especially with what's going on in in the Ukraine and
Speaker 1: Germany keeping some of its vision power plants on longer
Speaker 1: than originally anticipating because of all the pressures on on
Speaker 1: their energy systems with natural gas, etcetera. So they're the
Speaker 1: largest investor, for example, in the Eater experiment. It's the
Speaker 1: largest fusion experiment under construction in the world in southern France,
Speaker 1: and that will be the first experiment to down demonstrate
Speaker 1: that fusion plasmas can self heat and sustain themselves, and
Speaker 1: that will be a real breakthrough, and we're we're part
Speaker 1: of that. We provide a key diagnostics for that experiment.
Speaker 1: For example, give it is there is there a date
Speaker 1: down the road, Johnathan, that you think that fusion is
Speaker 1: more the norm. I think the earliest will see net
Speaker 1: electric production. This is really the goal of the whole
Speaker 1: fusion community points to show that we can make net
Speaker 1: electric power rather than just consume it. It's probably the
Speaker 1: early thirties and then it'll take off after that, I
Speaker 1: think in the early to mid But the technological technology
Speaker 1: development that's needed to make that happen is going to
Speaker 1: require significant resources, and that's where the money is starting
Speaker 1: to flow to with with the private sector. Do we
Speaker 1: have the students and the education geared in that right direction?
Speaker 1: I fear not. I fear other countries. For example, China
Speaker 1: is investing heavily in this. They also need energy resources
Speaker 1: immense ones and they're producing ten times more STEM students
Speaker 1: per year than we are. Roughly. Okay, we're getting close
Speaker 1: to the end of our time, but I want to
Speaker 1: try to end at least on a positive arc here
Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about we were not all doomed.
Speaker 1: Do you all feel like you're all doomed? What what
Speaker 1: gives you? Professor? I want to start with you and
Speaker 1: then we'll get your thoughts, everyone's thoughts, But what gives
Speaker 1: you hope about? You know, where we can go in
Speaker 1: the future. Uh. I think we as a human race,
Speaker 1: we are very intelligent, quite intelligent. You know, we can
Speaker 1: be foolish, but we're also intelligent. If we may say
Speaker 1: so ourselves. Yeah, so I think it's you know, or
Speaker 1: you know, hardship always gives us lessons, you know, so
Speaker 1: you know, for you know, I mean, eventually we will
Speaker 1: know that investments are transient. I've lost maybe a third
Speaker 1: of my four one key, you know. But but the
Speaker 1: environment is not transient, you know. I mean it takes
Speaker 1: a long time to you know, clean up water here, whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: So I think it's a matter of time before we
Speaker 1: you know, really no, we have we become convinced that
Speaker 1: sustainability is probably should have the highest priority, you know,
Speaker 1: be even above profit. You know, but would you say
Speaker 1: about existence? None of this matters, right if we're not around? Sorry,
Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah, so you know, so how how do
Speaker 1: we balance you know, sustainability with business, money, finance and
Speaker 1: things like that. And I think some of it is
Speaker 1: it's all about you know, being very very away. Like
Speaker 1: I said, it starts with the coffee cup in the morning.
Speaker 1: You know, there's always this big picture, but it starts,
Speaker 1: like I said, from the smallest thing. You know, almost
Speaker 1: anything we do needs energy, pauses water pollution, and causes
Speaker 1: air pollution. There is nothing out there that does not
Speaker 1: need these three things. So what is done as a
Speaker 1: life cycle assessment. You know that awareness is very important.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's enough of it is especially there's
Speaker 1: not enough quantitative data to kind of drive home the
Speaker 1: message of you know, what is what is the product?
Speaker 1: And besides plastic it also you know there's a water
Speaker 1: pollution component. Is the transparency is right? I mean I
Speaker 1: don't know about you, guys, like I've got a nineteen
Speaker 1: year old and talk about this. You and I on
Speaker 1: ERA constantly turning things over and trying to understand what's
Speaker 1: in it is on websites, buying from things that don't
Speaker 1: have as much of a climate impacting it. Come on
Speaker 1: in Like, I agree, let's end on some positive things.
Speaker 1: What gives you hope as we talk about this subject
Speaker 1: our ability to adapt, So even more than our intelligence,
Speaker 1: it will be our ability to adapt that gives us hope. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean take a train to Darwin. The species that
Speaker 1: survives isn't the most intelligent one. It's the one that
Speaker 1: is able to adapt. So if we can harness our
Speaker 1: intelligence and focus it on adapting with the changing climate,
Speaker 1: that is I think we're real find success. I would
Speaker 1: also say our values can change. You know, the clean
Speaker 1: air Act, clean water. When we want something changed for sustainability,
Speaker 1: we can do it as a species and as a
Speaker 1: society and intelligence. Yes, but especially for the US innovation,
Speaker 1: I think it's hard to predict exactly what breakthroughs will happen,
Speaker 1: but we've so far found a way to keep it
Speaker 1: all going and I'm very hopeful that that will continue.
Speaker 1: Do you have any message for our audience here, UM,
Speaker 1: I would say, you know the all above strategy on
Speaker 1: energy and sustainability, and value your environment and make your
Speaker 1: decisions accordingly and invest accordingly. I think that's very accurate
Speaker 1: from what we talked about in this panel. I think
Speaker 1: we need to wrap. I think we do too. We
Speaker 1: could continue this. Uh, it's such an important subject and
Speaker 1: I feel like that I there's like all these guests
Speaker 1: I want to book, I want to talk more about Fusion.
Speaker 1: I want to you know, UM, it gives me hope
Speaker 1: that Jonathan is not glowing from all the work based
Speaker 1: on with Fusion. That's what gives me hope. No, but
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because I think part of this problem,
Speaker 1: you know, here we are at nj I T and
Speaker 1: it's all about education and really understanding what we're talking
Speaker 1: about and understanding the impact and understanding how to do things,
Speaker 1: um really means something significant. Alright, we gotta go, guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you so appreciate. I hope
Speaker 1: we can continue these conversations in the future. Thank you
Speaker 1: to everybody in nj i T for having us. Jonathan
Speaker 1: Nard at the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab, Dr saw Mitra,
Speaker 1: Professor of Chemistry and Environmental Science here at n j
Speaker 1: i T, and of course Dna Prosta, she's founder of
Speaker 1: Indigo River. Thank you again so much. Um wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: and a big thank you to everyone who came out
Speaker 1: and joined us. Really appreciate you taking the time and
Speaker 1: congratulations on what you're doing here at New Jersey Institute
Speaker 1: of Technology. It's good to see everybody, all right. You
Speaker 1: are listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Carol Master, Tim Stenovic
Speaker 1: watching us as well on Bloomberg Radio on YouTube on
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