Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a heads up, we talk about suicide in
Speaker 1: this episode. Please take care while listening. In Zimbabwe, let
Speaker 1: alone the whole of Africa, you're looking at a ratio
Speaker 1: of one psychiatrist to about one and a half million people.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Dixon Chabanda, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe. He knew
Speaker 1: people in his country desperately needed access to mental healthcare
Speaker 1: but weren't getting it, and even though Dixon felt daunted
Speaker 1: by the magnitude of the problem, he was determined to
Speaker 1: try and find a solution. My initial thoughts were to
Speaker 1: work with trained nurses and doctors at the hospital, but
Speaker 1: I was immediately told no, the nurses and the doctors
Speaker 1: are extremely busy. They have to deal with people who
Speaker 1: are living with HIV, they have to deal with people
Speaker 1: who are coming in with malaria, and all sorts of
Speaker 1: other things. They just don't have the time to do
Speaker 1: this mental health stuff. Since health professionals were fully tied
Speaker 1: up with other work, Dixon was forced to look elsewhere,
Speaker 1: and so in two thousand and five, he turned to
Speaker 1: a rather unorthodox group for help. On today's episode, how
Speaker 1: you can vastly improve access to mental healthcare when you
Speaker 1: put grandmothers on the case, I'm Maya Shunker, and this
Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans, a show about who
Speaker 1: we are and who we become in the face of
Speaker 1: a big change. Dixon and I started our conversation by
Speaker 1: talking about what drew him to the field of psychiatry.
Speaker 1: He had initially wanted to become a pediatrician, but then
Speaker 1: something happened in medical school that deeply affected him. A
Speaker 1: classmate of his, who outwardly seemed stable and cheerful, took
Speaker 1: his own life. This came as a total shock to Dixon,
Speaker 1: and it motivated him to reassess how he wanted to
Speaker 1: spend his time as a doctor. And then there were
Speaker 1: a couple of other things. You know, I grew up
Speaker 1: in a family where my parents they didn't really have
Speaker 1: a wonderful marriage, you know, if I could put it
Speaker 1: that way, And when my parents divorced, that really affected
Speaker 1: me psychologically emotionally. I think I must have had childhood
Speaker 1: depression for a very long time, and no one really knew,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know either, you know, So that all
Speaker 1: of these kind of things, and then going to high
Speaker 1: school and being bullied and then you know, feeling completely
Speaker 1: out of place, So quite a number of events which
Speaker 1: had an emotional or traumatic effect on me. I believe
Speaker 1: contributed to that final decision for me to get into
Speaker 1: mental health and psychiatry. The thinking was, you know, if
Speaker 1: I can understand more about mental health and mental illness,
Speaker 1: I'll be able to heal myself, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and that's actually what it's all about, you know, It's
Speaker 1: really about finding a way of making myself a better person.
Speaker 1: So you end up deciding to become a psychiatrist, and
Speaker 1: you end up having a patient named Erica whose experience
Speaker 1: inspires you to specifically work in the area of increasing
Speaker 1: access to mental healthcare. Do you mind sharing her story? Yeah, Erica.
Speaker 1: Erica was a twenty six year old patient of mine
Speaker 1: who I had been saying for a good close to
Speaker 1: three years. She was initially brought to the hospital where
Speaker 1: I worked as a psychiatrist with a history of major depression.
Speaker 1: And I spent quite a lot of time with Erica,
Speaker 1: and I've really got to know her, And I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the things with psychiatry, when you really
Speaker 1: connect with your clients, you get to know them on
Speaker 1: a very personal level, and you know everything about their lives,
Speaker 1: because I mean, that's what mental health is all about.
Speaker 1: You know, you talk to people, you listen to people's stories,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, over the years, Erica and I
Speaker 1: had built this very strong rapport. But Erica actually lived
Speaker 1: some three hundred kilometers from where I am, and she
Speaker 1: would come and see me once every month together with
Speaker 1: her mum, you know, for review. And she may had
Speaker 1: a lot of progress over the years. And you know,
Speaker 1: one evening, I get a call in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night from the hospital where I worked, and the
Speaker 1: er doctor, you know, informs me that Erica, you know,
Speaker 1: my patient, Erica has taken an overdose, but she will
Speaker 1: be fine. But you know they kind of think that
Speaker 1: after that she should really come over and probably get
Speaker 1: more psychiatric evaluation and attention. And you know, we agreed
Speaker 1: that that was what was going to happen, you know,
Speaker 1: as soon as she's released. But you know, Erica didn't come.
Speaker 1: When she was released from the ear they went back
Speaker 1: to the village where she lived with her mother and father,
Speaker 1: and I only got a call three weeks later from
Speaker 1: Erica's mother to tell me that Erica had had hanged herself.
Speaker 1: You know, when Erica's mother phoned me to tell me
Speaker 1: what had happened, and you know, my sort of instinctive
Speaker 1: knee jerk response was to say, to Erica's mother, why
Speaker 1: didn't you bring Erica to the hospital for the review
Speaker 1: that we had talked about, you know, after after she
Speaker 1: had taken that initial overdose. And it was her response
Speaker 1: really that that struck me, you know, because she said,
Speaker 1: you know, we wanted to come, but we couldn't because
Speaker 1: we didn't have a bus there to come to your hospital,
Speaker 1: and that was like ten dollars, and as a result,
Speaker 1: Erica couldn't really get the help that she needed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and from what I understand, I mean, the fact Erica
Speaker 1: even had access to you already put her in a
Speaker 1: minority of people, right, just given the sheer number of
Speaker 1: psychiatrists in the area. Yeah, the ratio is actually quite
Speaker 1: appalling when you think about this statists, in terms of
Speaker 1: psychiatrists in Zimbabwe, let alone the whole of Africa, you're
Speaker 1: looking at a ratio of one psychiatrist to about one
Speaker 1: and a half million people. And I think, you know
Speaker 1: that that whole story about Erica got me really thinking
Speaker 1: about my role as a psychiatrist. You know, when you're
Speaker 1: trained as a psychiatrist. You you kind of see yourself
Speaker 1: working in a hospital. I mean, that's what psychiatrists do.
Speaker 1: You know, they work in hospitals. You know, we work
Speaker 1: in clinics. We deal with people. People come to us.
Speaker 1: And I started asking myself if this was really the
Speaker 1: right way of looking at my role as a psychiatrist
Speaker 1: in Africa, expecting people to come to me, And you know,
Speaker 1: I just realized that that just wasn't going to work.
Speaker 1: Erica's inability to access help and it mattered most had
Speaker 1: a profound impact on Dixon. He felt inspired to bridge
Speaker 1: this gap and access to mental healthcare, but wasn't sure
Speaker 1: how to do it. Then a moment of insight. Dixon
Speaker 1: was in West Africa at an academic conference being run
Speaker 1: by the World Health Organization when he caught wind of
Speaker 1: a local ceremony nearby. It was a spiritual gathering where
Speaker 1: a number of people had come together to try and
Speaker 1: heal those in the community who were suffering, and Dixon
Speaker 1: immediately took note of one particular aspect of this ceremony,
Speaker 1: the prominent role elderly women played in leading it. They
Speaker 1: were really powerful, but above all, they had this amazingly
Speaker 1: profound way of conveying empathy and connecting with their subjects.
Speaker 1: That was really what struck me, and that was when
Speaker 1: I kind of realized that there was something in having
Speaker 1: an older woman who has wisdom and experience reaching out
Speaker 1: to help a young mother who is struggling with postnatal depression,
Speaker 1: a young mother who is struggling with anxiety disorder, and
Speaker 1: just reaching out and establishing that connection that makes that
Speaker 1: person feel comfortable to share their story, to make them
Speaker 1: feel that sense of belonging that I am in a
Speaker 1: place where I'm being taken care of. That was really powerful.
Speaker 1: Dixon drew a lot of inspiration from observing the elderly
Speaker 1: women in that ceremony. The influence they had in the
Speaker 1: community because of their age, their wisdom, and their empathetic
Speaker 1: nature gave him an idea. Since there weren't enough mental
Speaker 1: health professionals in Zimbabwe to meet the needs of his community,
Speaker 1: Dixon thought one way to help could be to bring
Speaker 1: elderly women or grandmothers into the fold. If they could
Speaker 1: lend a compassionate ear to people who were struggling, that
Speaker 1: could give more people the support they needed. But when
Speaker 1: Dixon told his friends in the medical community about his idea.
Speaker 1: They did not share his enthusiasm. Well, the initial reaction
Speaker 1: was obviously negative. Everyone thought it just wouldn't work because
Speaker 1: therapy is designed to be delivered by trained therapists such
Speaker 1: as psychiatrists or clinical psychologists, and grandmothers with minimal education
Speaker 1: just did not have the capacity to do this kind
Speaker 1: of work. So friends in the field, colleagues and other
Speaker 1: senior colleagues as well who I looked up to, all
Speaker 1: kind of thought this wouldn't work, you know. But I
Speaker 1: guess at the back of my mind, I always had
Speaker 1: that vision of these elderly women, and also just looking
Speaker 1: at my own childhood as well. You know, I grew
Speaker 1: up in a family where the women were very strong,
Speaker 1: very powerful. Both my grandmothers, you know, were literate, were educated,
Speaker 1: and had a very strong contribution to the family and
Speaker 1: making decisions. So I guess that's another part of my
Speaker 1: history or my childhood that has influenced this work. Dixon
Speaker 1: did not have to wait long to test out his theory.
Speaker 1: Zimbabwe was reeling from a recent government crackdown which traumatized
Speaker 1: millions and left hundreds of thousands of people homeless. Against
Speaker 1: this backdrop, Dixon's medical supervisor implored him to double down
Speaker 1: on his existing efforts and try to find a solution
Speaker 1: to the growing mental health crisis. And at the time,
Speaker 1: I was the only psychiatrist actually working within the public
Speaker 1: health sector, you know. So my supervisor said, you need
Speaker 1: to go out there and you need to come up
Speaker 1: with something. You know, but there's no money. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to try and think of some innovative way
Speaker 1: of addressing the psychological trauma that this community is going through.
Speaker 1: And my initial thoughts were, you know, to work with
Speaker 1: the trained nurses and doctors at the hospital. But I
Speaker 1: was immediately told no, the nurses and the doctors are
Speaker 1: extremely busy. They have to deal with people who are
Speaker 1: living with HIV, they have to deal with people who
Speaker 1: are coming in with malaria and all sorts of other things.
Speaker 1: They just don't have the time to do this mental
Speaker 1: health stuff. But you could consider working with other, you know,
Speaker 1: non professionals, you know, And I thought, my goodness, this
Speaker 1: can't be done by non professionals, but just the thought then,
Speaker 1: you know, there are lots of community grandmothers here who
Speaker 1: have been involved in sort of outreach programs. How about
Speaker 1: I start with just fourteen grandmothers from this community and
Speaker 1: see what we can do. A part of me was
Speaker 1: also quite skeptical, but you know, when you think you
Speaker 1: onto some thing, you kind of keep going, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I can also imagine therapist and doctors reacting
Speaker 1: negatively because they're thinking, I have a real degree in this,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm actually trained, and now you're telling me
Speaker 1: that grandma's can do my job for me? Like, did
Speaker 1: you hear any of that kind of response? Yes, I
Speaker 1: had a lot of that kind of response. But you see,
Speaker 1: that's where I think, you know, the problem we have
Speaker 1: with today's education, where we see everything through the lengths
Speaker 1: of academia and academics, you know, particularly from the northern hemisphere,
Speaker 1: and we don't take time to look at the local
Speaker 1: indigenous knowledge and the wisdom that is inherent in every culture.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that I really learned
Speaker 1: from the grandmothers is that every culture has the amazing
Speaker 1: ability to teach you a piece of profound wisdom. And
Speaker 1: this is something that I have really taken to heart
Speaker 1: from my interactions with a grandmother's, just appreciating more the
Speaker 1: local culture and the role that it can play in
Speaker 1: addressing not only mental health issues, but a wide range
Speaker 1: of issues that people are struggling with in communities or
Speaker 1: in society. Will be right back with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. Doctor Dixon Chibanda, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe, had
Speaker 1: an idea for how to help more people in this
Speaker 1: country access mental health services, and it would come to
Speaker 1: be known as the Friendship Bench. Here's how it would work.
Speaker 1: Members of the community with mental health needs would be
Speaker 1: paired with a local grandmother. They then plan to meet
Speaker 1: up at a bench outdoors and work through problems the
Speaker 1: person was facing. Dixon took his idea to some grandmothers
Speaker 1: in his community in order to get their feedback. I
Speaker 1: was given fourteen grandmothers who were not very excited about
Speaker 1: working with me initially because you tell me more about that. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, when I approached them, I had my psychiatrist's hat,
Speaker 1: and over time, over the years, I've realized that when
Speaker 1: you really want to engage with communities, you need to
Speaker 1: take off your professional hat. If you really want to
Speaker 1: heal people who are traumatized in this part of the world,
Speaker 1: you need to rely on the local language, the local
Speaker 1: idioms of distress, and just use the language that resonates
Speaker 1: with communities because when you use your own language, you
Speaker 1: instantly remove stigma, because stigma is one of the biggest
Speaker 1: problems that we face in mental health. And in this
Speaker 1: part of the world, stigma is brought about because we're
Speaker 1: trying to adopt terms that I used in the Western world.
Speaker 1: You know, if you talk about depression in my country,
Speaker 1: people think you've lost it yourself. That people don't believe
Speaker 1: there's depression. People think that depression is something that just
Speaker 1: doesn't happen to people in this part of the world.
Speaker 1: But if you use the terms which which resonates with
Speaker 1: the local folks, like in our culture, for instance, the
Speaker 1: equivalent for depression is a word called kofungi sisa, which
Speaker 1: literally means thinking too much. When you break down the
Speaker 1: symptoms of thinking too much in the local language, it's
Speaker 1: exactly the same as depression. So, you know, I learned
Speaker 1: from the grandmothers that the words that we use and
Speaker 1: the terms that we use to describe people's emotional experiences
Speaker 1: can make or break people. Fascinating So, so you said,
Speaker 1: the grandmothers were not excited initially about the prospect of
Speaker 1: working with you, but you learn to adopt the language
Speaker 1: of the locals, right, and to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: speaking in their terms. Was that effective in getting them
Speaker 1: onto your side and motivating those fourteen initial grandmothers to
Speaker 1: want to partner with you. I remember Grandmother Jack, the
Speaker 1: very first grandmother who I interacted with and spoke to
Speaker 1: about the Friendship Bench and the idea that I had.
Speaker 1: She was very apprehensive initially and dismissive when I first
Speaker 1: approached her because I was I was using lingo from
Speaker 1: the DSAM five, you know, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which
Speaker 1: is kind of the psychiatrist's handbook or bible, you know,
Speaker 1: and I was using terms from that book. And she's
Speaker 1: looking at me like, and you think that kind of
Speaker 1: stuff is going to fly in this community, you know,
Speaker 1: totally interesting, you know, And I remember distinctly, you know,
Speaker 1: she said, if you really want to make a difference
Speaker 1: in this community, you have to put down your book
Speaker 1: and don't come here acting like a doctor. She knows
Speaker 1: the community inside out. And I persisted, you know, every week,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll go to the to the clinic, you know,
Speaker 1: meet the grandmother's and you know, Grandmother Jack would be
Speaker 1: looking at me, you know, very skeptical, and and and
Speaker 1: and gradually, you know, she warmed up to me, you know,
Speaker 1: and gradually, you know, they're bought into the whole idea
Speaker 1: or therapy on a bench. Yeah. You know, you said
Speaker 1: that the grandmothers eventually warmed up to you. But it
Speaker 1: seems like a key feature of that is the fact
Speaker 1: that you maintained an open mind throughout right you were
Speaker 1: you were viewing this as a dialogue between you and
Speaker 1: grandmothers right at the two way street, in which both
Speaker 1: sides were contributing to the conversation. And I think that's
Speaker 1: so that's such an important lesson for people who are
Speaker 1: trying to bring new and innovative approaches to their communities.
Speaker 1: You know. An example of this is that initially you
Speaker 1: would plan to call the bench the mental health bench,
Speaker 1: right yeah, and no one was coming when it was
Speaker 1: called the mental health bench. And then the grandma's you know,
Speaker 1: came to you. I imagine Grandma Jack was among them
Speaker 1: and said, look, Dixon, you need to change the name
Speaker 1: to friendship bench. No one is going to come to
Speaker 1: the mental health bench. Yeah. Yeah, And that's a good
Speaker 1: example of me having my psychiatrists hat on, you know, like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is we're providing mental health services. Yes, so this
Speaker 1: is the Mental Health Bench. And it just didn't occur
Speaker 1: to me that a name could make or break a program,
Speaker 1: But I've learned now. You know, the language is very important,
Speaker 1: the language that you used to navigate through the therapy,
Speaker 1: through the session, that's critical because that's what people identify with.
Speaker 1: So yeah, indeed, everything is in a name. I guess
Speaker 1: I'd love to dive a bit deeper into the features
Speaker 1: of Friendship Bench, and there's this very strong storytelling component involved.
Speaker 1: But what's trucking me about the program is that both
Speaker 1: sides are encouraged to share their stories. And I find
Speaker 1: this fascinating because in the clinical world, providers are often
Speaker 1: discouraged from sharing personal stories. Right. Yeah, but you've identified
Speaker 1: that there are huge therapeutic benefits to having people bond
Speaker 1: in this way. So can you share a bit more
Speaker 1: about that? Sure? I think before I share one of
Speaker 1: the things, I'd like to also just mention that through
Speaker 1: my interaction with the grandmothers over the years, my own
Speaker 1: approach as a psychiatrist has changed significantly. I am more
Speaker 1: comfortable sharing my own story with clients who come to
Speaker 1: me for help and I find that extremely powerful because
Speaker 1: you really connect at a human level. You know, when
Speaker 1: we're trained as psychiatrists, we're trained to keep this distance,
Speaker 1: don't really open up, don't show your vulnerabilities, because as
Speaker 1: a therapist you're supposed to be strong. But actually there's
Speaker 1: a lot more strength in showing your vulnerabilities. There's a
Speaker 1: lot more strength that comes from telling your own story,
Speaker 1: including the negative things, because then you really connect. Because
Speaker 1: one of the things I've learned from Friendship Bench is
Speaker 1: the therapy actually starts when you connect with a person.
Speaker 1: The different steps that you take in the process of
Speaker 1: reaching out to people are important, but if you do
Speaker 1: not have that connection that ra poor you may lose
Speaker 1: everything else. So if you ask me what I consider
Speaker 1: to be the most critical feature of the work we do,
Speaker 1: it's that connection. Being able to get two people to
Speaker 1: connect in a way that is empathic. And that's the
Speaker 1: first part, you know, which the Grandmother's called or opening
Speaker 1: up the mind, because without opening up the mind, you
Speaker 1: don't get to the root of the problem. The other
Speaker 1: key component that we emphasize is the Grandmother's ability to summarize.
Speaker 1: So if you're listening to a story, you know this
Speaker 1: is what I normally would say to the grandmothers if
Speaker 1: if you're listening to a story, how does the person
Speaker 1: that is telling the story know that you really were listening?
Speaker 1: And the simplest way is a summary. You know, a
Speaker 1: good summary of what you've heard shows how well you
Speaker 1: were immersed in this story. And you can see from
Speaker 1: the grandmothers who are brilliant at summarizing, they are also
Speaker 1: the best grandmothers when it comes to immersing themselves into
Speaker 1: a story and also showing that empathy and that ability
Speaker 1: to make people feel respected and understood you. So those
Speaker 1: are the two key components. Another component of the friendship
Speaker 1: bench is a diagnostic screening tool. The grandmothers have everyone
Speaker 1: who comes to the bench fill out a questionnaire so
Speaker 1: they can get a better sense of what kinds of
Speaker 1: symptoms the person is experiencing and their degree of severity.
Speaker 1: If someone presents with severe symptoms, the grandmother refers them
Speaker 1: right away to a trained medical professional, but if someone
Speaker 1: presents with more mild to modern symptoms, the friendship bench
Speaker 1: is for them. Grandmothers are trained in a form of
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy called problem solving therapy, which focuses on
Speaker 1: identifying concrete problems like unemployment rather than the symptoms of
Speaker 1: that problem, like anxiety. Grandmothers then work with a person
Speaker 1: to brainstorm specific steps they can take to solve the problem,
Speaker 1: and according to research, this focus on resolving specific problems
Speaker 1: can give people a greater sense of agency over their lives.
Speaker 1: A classical sort of presentation on the bench is, you know,
Speaker 1: a young client presenting with numerous problems. I'm HIV positive,
Speaker 1: I'm unemployed, I mean an abusive relationship, I have a
Speaker 1: child who is not able to go to school because
Speaker 1: I don't have money to pay for school fees. I'm
Speaker 1: struggling to feed my family. So they present with numerous problems,
Speaker 1: you know. And one of the things that has really
Speaker 1: characterized the therapy component is the ability to help these
Speaker 1: clients who come to the bench after sharing these stories,
Speaker 1: the ability of the grandmothers to help them select one
Speaker 1: problem to focus on. And that seems that sounds very simple,
Speaker 1: but actually, when you're immersed in all these problems, every
Speaker 1: single one of those problems is a big problem for you.
Speaker 1: So because the grandmothers live in these communities, the actual
Speaker 1: treatment is often not only on the bench, but it
Speaker 1: also occurs in the community. So you can get a
Speaker 1: grandmother meeting a client, for instance, at church. So I'll
Speaker 1: see you this Sunday at church and you and I
Speaker 1: can pray together. I will see you at the market
Speaker 1: and we can do this together. So you're slowly introducing
Speaker 1: a very practice called kind of behavior activation to help
Speaker 1: someone who is depressed and unmotivated and isolating themselves at
Speaker 1: home because they feel they are in this miserable situation.
Speaker 1: But because the grandmother has come up with this set
Speaker 1: of activities that they then carry out together, you slowly
Speaker 1: begin to see this person transforming, you know. So that's
Speaker 1: one sort of example of how the grandmothers will deal
Speaker 1: with situations of depression. Often people think the work we
Speaker 1: do is just on the bench. The bench, the friendship bench,
Speaker 1: or the bench. The physical bench is just an entry point.
Speaker 1: There's a lot more that happens outside of the bench.
Speaker 1: We encourage everyone who sat on the bench with the
Speaker 1: grandmother is to join a support group in the community.
Speaker 1: And through the support groups that you get peer support
Speaker 1: with individuals who've all gone through the friendship bench, share
Speaker 1: their own experiences and collectively problems solved around challenges that
Speaker 1: they are facing within the community. I'd love if you
Speaker 1: could talk about the efficacy of the program, because you
Speaker 1: actually ran a randomized control trial, which is considered the
Speaker 1: gold standard of evaluation, and found some extremely exciting results. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So we have over fifty peer reviewed publications, you know,
Speaker 1: scientific publications about the Friendship Bench, But I guess the
Speaker 1: most seminal publication would be our cluster randomized controlled trial,
Speaker 1: which is published in the Journal of the American Medical Association,
Speaker 1: which in a nutshell, shows that six months after receiving
Speaker 1: therapy from a trained community grandmother on a bench in Zimbabwe,
Speaker 1: people were steal symptom free. The grandmother where in essentially
Speaker 1: much better than enhanced usual care. And enhanced usual care
Speaker 1: was a trained mental health nurse, clinical psychologists or psychiatrists,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think the reason why the grandmothers
Speaker 1: tend to be better is because they are rooted in
Speaker 1: their communities. The grandmothers are the custodians of local culture
Speaker 1: and wisdom, you know. And it's positively changing the lives
Speaker 1: of grandmothers as well. Yeah. One of our most recent
Speaker 1: publication actually took a random sample of grandmothers who are
Speaker 1: working on Friendship Bench and compared them with a similar
Speaker 1: random sample of grandmothers with similar sociodemographic characteristics, and we
Speaker 1: found that the grandmothers who work on Friendship Bench were
Speaker 1: a lot more resilient, They had lower rates of common
Speaker 1: mental disorders and post traumatic stress disorder. And when we
Speaker 1: dug deeper, we actually found that this work gave the
Speaker 1: grandmothers a profound sense of purpose and a sense of belonging.
Speaker 1: And this is why they do this work. It's a
Speaker 1: win win. Actually, they are not only reaching out and
Speaker 1: helping people, but it's helping them too. So one thing
Speaker 1: that's been so exciting about the program is that the
Speaker 1: Friendship Bench is scaling to places all over the world.
Speaker 1: What are your future dreams for this program, like if
Speaker 1: you could wave a magic wand what is the presence
Speaker 1: of the friendship Bench like in communities all over the world.
Speaker 1: The vision of Friendship Bench is to actually have a
Speaker 1: friendship bench within walking distance everywhere. It sounds grandious, very ambitious,
Speaker 1: but it's something that I am working towards because in
Speaker 1: every culture, people thrive when they connect with each other.
Speaker 1: And the Friendship Bench is not just an intervention that
Speaker 1: addresses mental health issues. It's really an intervention that connects people,
Speaker 1: and I think that's where the real power of this
Speaker 1: comes from. And when you connect people, particularly using grandmothers
Speaker 1: or the elderly, you have this profound sense of belonging
Speaker 1: and it creates a sense of purpose, particularly for the
Speaker 1: grandmothers and the you know so. So I think that's
Speaker 1: that's what I would like to see, you know, in
Speaker 1: the next coming years. And fortunately we are, you know,
Speaker 1: we are gaining traction, and I just want to make
Speaker 1: it possible for every person out there who needs to connect,
Speaker 1: who feels they need to talk, to be able to
Speaker 1: talk to someone who is empathic, someone who's able to
Speaker 1: respect them and to understand them. Hey, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Join me next week when we hear from Quinn Lewis,
Speaker 1: a college student who's mourning the tragic death of her
Speaker 1: younger sister, Dixie and the future relationship she had envisioned
Speaker 1: for them. We would always bring up how different we
Speaker 1: were from each other, were such different people, and I
Speaker 1: felt in the last few years that was changing and
Speaker 1: it felt like the future felt intertwined, is how I
Speaker 1: would put it. It felt like we were going somewhere together.
Speaker 1: A slight change of plans is created, written in exact
Speaker 1: get produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family
Speaker 1: includes Tyler Greene our senior producer, Jen Guerra our senior editor,
Speaker 1: Then Talliday our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our producer, and
Speaker 1: Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our theme
Speaker 1: song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight
Speaker 1: Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so
Speaker 1: big thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee,
Speaker 1: tamlat and Heather Fain and of course a very special
Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker, See you
Speaker 1: next week. Is there any chance for grandfathers? When we
Speaker 1: first started, we did involve some grandfathers. The challenge with
Speaker 1: grandfathers is they just don't have the same ability as
Speaker 1: grandmothers when it comes to creating space and letting people
Speaker 1: tell their stories. Grandfathers tend to be prescriptive. They tend
Speaker 1: to tell you what you need to do. You go
Speaker 1: and talk to this person, and go and do this.
Speaker 1: You know. So there's some man's plaining going on, Yes,
Speaker 1: quite a lot of it