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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a heads up, we talk about suicide in

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Speaker 1: this episode. Please take care while listening. In Zimbabwe, let

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Speaker 1: alone the whole of Africa, you're looking at a ratio

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Speaker 1: of one psychiatrist to about one and a half million people.

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Speaker 1: That's doctor Dixon Chabanda, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe. He knew

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Speaker 1: people in his country desperately needed access to mental healthcare

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Speaker 1: but weren't getting it, and even though Dixon felt daunted

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Speaker 1: by the magnitude of the problem, he was determined to

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Speaker 1: try and find a solution. My initial thoughts were to

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Speaker 1: work with trained nurses and doctors at the hospital, but

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Speaker 1: I was immediately told no, the nurses and the doctors

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Speaker 1: are extremely busy. They have to deal with people who

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Speaker 1: are living with HIV, they have to deal with people

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Speaker 1: who are coming in with malaria, and all sorts of

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Speaker 1: other things. They just don't have the time to do

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Speaker 1: this mental health stuff. Since health professionals were fully tied

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Speaker 1: up with other work, Dixon was forced to look elsewhere,

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Speaker 1: and so in two thousand and five, he turned to

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Speaker 1: a rather unorthodox group for help. On today's episode, how

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Speaker 1: you can vastly improve access to mental healthcare when you

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Speaker 1: put grandmothers on the case, I'm Maya Shunker, and this

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Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans, a show about who

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Speaker 1: we are and who we become in the face of

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Speaker 1: a big change. Dixon and I started our conversation by

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Speaker 1: talking about what drew him to the field of psychiatry.

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Speaker 1: He had initially wanted to become a pediatrician, but then

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Speaker 1: something happened in medical school that deeply affected him. A

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Speaker 1: classmate of his, who outwardly seemed stable and cheerful, took

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Speaker 1: his own life. This came as a total shock to Dixon,

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Speaker 1: and it motivated him to reassess how he wanted to

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Speaker 1: spend his time as a doctor. And then there were

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Speaker 1: a couple of other things. You know, I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a family where my parents they didn't really have

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Speaker 1: a wonderful marriage, you know, if I could put it

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Speaker 1: that way, And when my parents divorced, that really affected

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Speaker 1: me psychologically emotionally. I think I must have had childhood

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Speaker 1: depression for a very long time, and no one really knew,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know either, you know, So that all

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Speaker 1: of these kind of things, and then going to high

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Speaker 1: school and being bullied and then you know, feeling completely

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Speaker 1: out of place, So quite a number of events which

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Speaker 1: had an emotional or traumatic effect on me. I believe

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Speaker 1: contributed to that final decision for me to get into

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Speaker 1: mental health and psychiatry. The thinking was, you know, if

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Speaker 1: I can understand more about mental health and mental illness,

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Speaker 1: I'll be able to heal myself, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: and that's actually what it's all about, you know, It's

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Speaker 1: really about finding a way of making myself a better person.

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Speaker 1: So you end up deciding to become a psychiatrist, and

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Speaker 1: you end up having a patient named Erica whose experience

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Speaker 1: inspires you to specifically work in the area of increasing

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Speaker 1: access to mental healthcare. Do you mind sharing her story? Yeah, Erica.

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Speaker 1: Erica was a twenty six year old patient of mine

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Speaker 1: who I had been saying for a good close to

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Speaker 1: three years. She was initially brought to the hospital where

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Speaker 1: I worked as a psychiatrist with a history of major depression.

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Speaker 1: And I spent quite a lot of time with Erica,

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Speaker 1: and I've really got to know her, And I think

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things with psychiatry, when you really

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Speaker 1: connect with your clients, you get to know them on

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Speaker 1: a very personal level, and you know everything about their lives,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, that's what mental health is all about.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talk to people, you listen to people's stories,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, over the years, Erica and I

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Speaker 1: had built this very strong rapport. But Erica actually lived

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Speaker 1: some three hundred kilometers from where I am, and she

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Speaker 1: would come and see me once every month together with

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Speaker 1: her mum, you know, for review. And she may had

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Speaker 1: a lot of progress over the years. And you know,

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Speaker 1: one evening, I get a call in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night from the hospital where I worked, and the

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Speaker 1: er doctor, you know, informs me that Erica, you know,

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Speaker 1: my patient, Erica has taken an overdose, but she will

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Speaker 1: be fine. But you know they kind of think that

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Speaker 1: after that she should really come over and probably get

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Speaker 1: more psychiatric evaluation and attention. And you know, we agreed

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Speaker 1: that that was what was going to happen, you know,

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Speaker 1: as soon as she's released. But you know, Erica didn't come.

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Speaker 1: When she was released from the ear they went back

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Speaker 1: to the village where she lived with her mother and father,

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Speaker 1: and I only got a call three weeks later from

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Speaker 1: Erica's mother to tell me that Erica had had hanged herself.

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Speaker 1: You know, when Erica's mother phoned me to tell me

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Speaker 1: what had happened, and you know, my sort of instinctive

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Speaker 1: knee jerk response was to say, to Erica's mother, why

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Speaker 1: didn't you bring Erica to the hospital for the review

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Speaker 1: that we had talked about, you know, after after she

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Speaker 1: had taken that initial overdose. And it was her response

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Speaker 1: really that that struck me, you know, because she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, we wanted to come, but we couldn't because

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Speaker 1: we didn't have a bus there to come to your hospital,

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Speaker 1: and that was like ten dollars, and as a result,

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Speaker 1: Erica couldn't really get the help that she needed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and from what I understand, I mean, the fact Erica

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Speaker 1: even had access to you already put her in a

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Speaker 1: minority of people, right, just given the sheer number of

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists in the area. Yeah, the ratio is actually quite

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Speaker 1: appalling when you think about this statists, in terms of

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists in Zimbabwe, let alone the whole of Africa, you're

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Speaker 1: looking at a ratio of one psychiatrist to about one

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Speaker 1: and a half million people. And I think, you know

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Speaker 1: that that whole story about Erica got me really thinking

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Speaker 1: about my role as a psychiatrist. You know, when you're

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Speaker 1: trained as a psychiatrist. You you kind of see yourself

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Speaker 1: working in a hospital. I mean, that's what psychiatrists do.

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Speaker 1: You know, they work in hospitals. You know, we work

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Speaker 1: in clinics. We deal with people. People come to us.

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Speaker 1: And I started asking myself if this was really the

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Speaker 1: right way of looking at my role as a psychiatrist

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Speaker 1: in Africa, expecting people to come to me, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I just realized that that just wasn't going to work.

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Speaker 1: Erica's inability to access help and it mattered most had

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Speaker 1: a profound impact on Dixon. He felt inspired to bridge

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Speaker 1: this gap and access to mental healthcare, but wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: how to do it. Then a moment of insight. Dixon

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Speaker 1: was in West Africa at an academic conference being run

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Speaker 1: by the World Health Organization when he caught wind of

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Speaker 1: a local ceremony nearby. It was a spiritual gathering where

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Speaker 1: a number of people had come together to try and

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Speaker 1: heal those in the community who were suffering, and Dixon

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Speaker 1: immediately took note of one particular aspect of this ceremony,

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Speaker 1: the prominent role elderly women played in leading it. They

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Speaker 1: were really powerful, but above all, they had this amazingly

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Speaker 1: profound way of conveying empathy and connecting with their subjects.

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Speaker 1: That was really what struck me, and that was when

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Speaker 1: I kind of realized that there was something in having

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Speaker 1: an older woman who has wisdom and experience reaching out

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Speaker 1: to help a young mother who is struggling with postnatal depression,

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Speaker 1: a young mother who is struggling with anxiety disorder, and

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Speaker 1: just reaching out and establishing that connection that makes that

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Speaker 1: person feel comfortable to share their story, to make them

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Speaker 1: feel that sense of belonging that I am in a

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Speaker 1: place where I'm being taken care of. That was really powerful.

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Speaker 1: Dixon drew a lot of inspiration from observing the elderly

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Speaker 1: women in that ceremony. The influence they had in the

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Speaker 1: community because of their age, their wisdom, and their empathetic

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Speaker 1: nature gave him an idea. Since there weren't enough mental

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Speaker 1: health professionals in Zimbabwe to meet the needs of his community,

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Speaker 1: Dixon thought one way to help could be to bring

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Speaker 1: elderly women or grandmothers into the fold. If they could

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Speaker 1: lend a compassionate ear to people who were struggling, that

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Speaker 1: could give more people the support they needed. But when

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Speaker 1: Dixon told his friends in the medical community about his idea.

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Speaker 1: They did not share his enthusiasm. Well, the initial reaction

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Speaker 1: was obviously negative. Everyone thought it just wouldn't work because

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Speaker 1: therapy is designed to be delivered by trained therapists such

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Speaker 1: as psychiatrists or clinical psychologists, and grandmothers with minimal education

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Speaker 1: just did not have the capacity to do this kind

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Speaker 1: of work. So friends in the field, colleagues and other

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Speaker 1: senior colleagues as well who I looked up to, all

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Speaker 1: kind of thought this wouldn't work, you know. But I

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Speaker 1: guess at the back of my mind, I always had

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Speaker 1: that vision of these elderly women, and also just looking

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Speaker 1: at my own childhood as well. You know, I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a family where the women were very strong,

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Speaker 1: very powerful. Both my grandmothers, you know, were literate, were educated,

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Speaker 1: and had a very strong contribution to the family and

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Speaker 1: making decisions. So I guess that's another part of my

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Speaker 1: history or my childhood that has influenced this work. Dixon

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Speaker 1: did not have to wait long to test out his theory.

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Speaker 1: Zimbabwe was reeling from a recent government crackdown which traumatized

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Speaker 1: millions and left hundreds of thousands of people homeless. Against

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Speaker 1: this backdrop, Dixon's medical supervisor implored him to double down

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Speaker 1: on his existing efforts and try to find a solution

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Speaker 1: to the growing mental health crisis. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was the only psychiatrist actually working within the public

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Speaker 1: health sector, you know. So my supervisor said, you need

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Speaker 1: to go out there and you need to come up

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Speaker 1: with something. You know, but there's no money. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have to try and think of some innovative way

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Speaker 1: of addressing the psychological trauma that this community is going through.

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Speaker 1: And my initial thoughts were, you know, to work with

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Speaker 1: the trained nurses and doctors at the hospital. But I

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Speaker 1: was immediately told no, the nurses and the doctors are

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Speaker 1: extremely busy. They have to deal with people who are

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Speaker 1: living with HIV, they have to deal with people who

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Speaker 1: are coming in with malaria and all sorts of other things.

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Speaker 1: They just don't have the time to do this mental

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Speaker 1: health stuff. But you could consider working with other, you know,

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Speaker 1: non professionals, you know, And I thought, my goodness, this

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Speaker 1: can't be done by non professionals, but just the thought then,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are lots of community grandmothers here who

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Speaker 1: have been involved in sort of outreach programs. How about

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Speaker 1: I start with just fourteen grandmothers from this community and

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Speaker 1: see what we can do. A part of me was

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Speaker 1: also quite skeptical, but you know, when you think you

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Speaker 1: onto some thing, you kind of keep going, you know. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I can also imagine therapist and doctors reacting

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Speaker 1: negatively because they're thinking, I have a real degree in this,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm actually trained, and now you're telling me

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Speaker 1: that grandma's can do my job for me? Like, did

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Speaker 1: you hear any of that kind of response? Yes, I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of that kind of response. But you see,

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Speaker 1: that's where I think, you know, the problem we have

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Speaker 1: with today's education, where we see everything through the lengths

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Speaker 1: of academia and academics, you know, particularly from the northern hemisphere,

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Speaker 1: and we don't take time to look at the local

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Speaker 1: indigenous knowledge and the wisdom that is inherent in every culture.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that I really learned

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Speaker 1: from the grandmothers is that every culture has the amazing

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Speaker 1: ability to teach you a piece of profound wisdom. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that I have really taken to heart

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Speaker 1: from my interactions with a grandmother's, just appreciating more the

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Speaker 1: local culture and the role that it can play in

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Speaker 1: addressing not only mental health issues, but a wide range

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Speaker 1: of issues that people are struggling with in communities or

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Speaker 1: in society. Will be right back with a slight change

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Speaker 1: of plans. Doctor Dixon Chibanda, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe, had

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Speaker 1: an idea for how to help more people in this

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Speaker 1: country access mental health services, and it would come to

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Speaker 1: be known as the Friendship Bench. Here's how it would work.

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Speaker 1: Members of the community with mental health needs would be

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Speaker 1: paired with a local grandmother. They then plan to meet

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Speaker 1: up at a bench outdoors and work through problems the

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Speaker 1: person was facing. Dixon took his idea to some grandmothers

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Speaker 1: in his community in order to get their feedback. I

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Speaker 1: was given fourteen grandmothers who were not very excited about

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Speaker 1: working with me initially because you tell me more about that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I approached them, I had my psychiatrist's hat,

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Speaker 1: and over time, over the years, I've realized that when

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Speaker 1: you really want to engage with communities, you need to

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Speaker 1: take off your professional hat. If you really want to

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Speaker 1: heal people who are traumatized in this part of the world,

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Speaker 1: you need to rely on the local language, the local

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Speaker 1: idioms of distress, and just use the language that resonates

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Speaker 1: with communities because when you use your own language, you

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Speaker 1: instantly remove stigma, because stigma is one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: problems that we face in mental health. And in this

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Speaker 1: part of the world, stigma is brought about because we're

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Speaker 1: trying to adopt terms that I used in the Western world.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you talk about depression in my country,

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Speaker 1: people think you've lost it yourself. That people don't believe

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Speaker 1: there's depression. People think that depression is something that just

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen to people in this part of the world.

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Speaker 1: But if you use the terms which which resonates with

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Speaker 1: the local folks, like in our culture, for instance, the

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Speaker 1: equivalent for depression is a word called kofungi sisa, which

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Speaker 1: literally means thinking too much. When you break down the

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Speaker 1: symptoms of thinking too much in the local language, it's

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Speaker 1: exactly the same as depression. So, you know, I learned

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Speaker 1: from the grandmothers that the words that we use and

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Speaker 1: the terms that we use to describe people's emotional experiences

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Speaker 1: can make or break people. Fascinating So, so you said,

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Speaker 1: the grandmothers were not excited initially about the prospect of

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Speaker 1: working with you, but you learn to adopt the language

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Speaker 1: of the locals, right, and to make sure that you're

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Speaker 1: speaking in their terms. Was that effective in getting them

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Speaker 1: onto your side and motivating those fourteen initial grandmothers to

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Speaker 1: want to partner with you. I remember Grandmother Jack, the

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Speaker 1: very first grandmother who I interacted with and spoke to

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Speaker 1: about the Friendship Bench and the idea that I had.

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Speaker 1: She was very apprehensive initially and dismissive when I first

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Speaker 1: approached her because I was I was using lingo from

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Speaker 1: the DSAM five, you know, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of the psychiatrist's handbook or bible, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I was using terms from that book. And she's

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Speaker 1: looking at me like, and you think that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff is going to fly in this community, you know,

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Speaker 1: totally interesting, you know, And I remember distinctly, you know,

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Speaker 1: she said, if you really want to make a difference

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Speaker 1: in this community, you have to put down your book

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Speaker 1: and don't come here acting like a doctor. She knows

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Speaker 1: the community inside out. And I persisted, you know, every week,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll go to the to the clinic, you know,

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Speaker 1: meet the grandmother's and you know, Grandmother Jack would be

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Speaker 1: looking at me, you know, very skeptical, and and and

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Speaker 1: and gradually, you know, she warmed up to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: and gradually, you know, they're bought into the whole idea

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Speaker 1: or therapy on a bench. Yeah. You know, you said

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Speaker 1: that the grandmothers eventually warmed up to you. But it

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Speaker 1: seems like a key feature of that is the fact

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Speaker 1: that you maintained an open mind throughout right you were

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Speaker 1: you were viewing this as a dialogue between you and

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Speaker 1: grandmothers right at the two way street, in which both

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Speaker 1: sides were contributing to the conversation. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: so that's such an important lesson for people who are

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Speaker 1: trying to bring new and innovative approaches to their communities.

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Speaker 1: You know. An example of this is that initially you

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Speaker 1: would plan to call the bench the mental health bench,

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Speaker 1: right yeah, and no one was coming when it was

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Speaker 1: called the mental health bench. And then the grandma's you know,

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Speaker 1: came to you. I imagine Grandma Jack was among them

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Speaker 1: and said, look, Dixon, you need to change the name

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Speaker 1: to friendship bench. No one is going to come to

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Speaker 1: the mental health bench. Yeah. Yeah, And that's a good

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Speaker 1: example of me having my psychiatrists hat on, you know, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is we're providing mental health services. Yes, so this

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Speaker 1: is the Mental Health Bench. And it just didn't occur

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Speaker 1: to me that a name could make or break a program,

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Speaker 1: But I've learned now. You know, the language is very important,

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Speaker 1: the language that you used to navigate through the therapy,

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Speaker 1: through the session, that's critical because that's what people identify with.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, indeed, everything is in a name. I guess

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Speaker 1: I'd love to dive a bit deeper into the features

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Speaker 1: of Friendship Bench, and there's this very strong storytelling component involved.

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Speaker 1: But what's trucking me about the program is that both

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Speaker 1: sides are encouraged to share their stories. And I find

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Speaker 1: this fascinating because in the clinical world, providers are often

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Speaker 1: discouraged from sharing personal stories. Right. Yeah, but you've identified

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Speaker 1: that there are huge therapeutic benefits to having people bond

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Speaker 1: in this way. So can you share a bit more

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Speaker 1: about that? Sure? I think before I share one of

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Speaker 1: the things, I'd like to also just mention that through

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Speaker 1: my interaction with the grandmothers over the years, my own

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Speaker 1: approach as a psychiatrist has changed significantly. I am more

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Speaker 1: comfortable sharing my own story with clients who come to

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Speaker 1: me for help and I find that extremely powerful because

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Speaker 1: you really connect at a human level. You know, when

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Speaker 1: we're trained as psychiatrists, we're trained to keep this distance,

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Speaker 1: don't really open up, don't show your vulnerabilities, because as

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Speaker 1: a therapist you're supposed to be strong. But actually there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more strength in showing your vulnerabilities. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot more strength that comes from telling your own story,

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Speaker 1: including the negative things, because then you really connect. Because

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Speaker 1: one of the things I've learned from Friendship Bench is

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Speaker 1: the therapy actually starts when you connect with a person.

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Speaker 1: The different steps that you take in the process of

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Speaker 1: reaching out to people are important, but if you do

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Speaker 1: not have that connection that ra poor you may lose

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Speaker 1: everything else. So if you ask me what I consider

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Speaker 1: to be the most critical feature of the work we do,

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Speaker 1: it's that connection. Being able to get two people to

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Speaker 1: connect in a way that is empathic. And that's the

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Speaker 1: first part, you know, which the Grandmother's called or opening

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Speaker 1: up the mind, because without opening up the mind, you

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Speaker 1: don't get to the root of the problem. The other

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Speaker 1: key component that we emphasize is the Grandmother's ability to summarize.

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Speaker 1: So if you're listening to a story, you know this

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Speaker 1: is what I normally would say to the grandmothers if

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to a story, how does the person

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Speaker 1: that is telling the story know that you really were listening?

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Speaker 1: And the simplest way is a summary. You know, a

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Speaker 1: good summary of what you've heard shows how well you

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Speaker 1: were immersed in this story. And you can see from

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Speaker 1: the grandmothers who are brilliant at summarizing, they are also

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Speaker 1: the best grandmothers when it comes to immersing themselves into

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Speaker 1: a story and also showing that empathy and that ability

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Speaker 1: to make people feel respected and understood you. So those

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Speaker 1: are the two key components. Another component of the friendship

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Speaker 1: bench is a diagnostic screening tool. The grandmothers have everyone

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Speaker 1: who comes to the bench fill out a questionnaire so

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Speaker 1: they can get a better sense of what kinds of

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Speaker 1: symptoms the person is experiencing and their degree of severity.

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Speaker 1: If someone presents with severe symptoms, the grandmother refers them

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Speaker 1: right away to a trained medical professional, but if someone

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Speaker 1: presents with more mild to modern symptoms, the friendship bench

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Speaker 1: is for them. Grandmothers are trained in a form of

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Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy called problem solving therapy, which focuses on

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Speaker 1: identifying concrete problems like unemployment rather than the symptoms of

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Speaker 1: that problem, like anxiety. Grandmothers then work with a person

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Speaker 1: to brainstorm specific steps they can take to solve the problem,

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Speaker 1: and according to research, this focus on resolving specific problems

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Speaker 1: can give people a greater sense of agency over their lives.

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Speaker 1: A classical sort of presentation on the bench is, you know,

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Speaker 1: a young client presenting with numerous problems. I'm HIV positive,

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Speaker 1: I'm unemployed, I mean an abusive relationship, I have a

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Speaker 1: child who is not able to go to school because

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Speaker 1: I don't have money to pay for school fees. I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling to feed my family. So they present with numerous problems,

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Speaker 1: you know. And one of the things that has really

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Speaker 1: characterized the therapy component is the ability to help these

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Speaker 1: clients who come to the bench after sharing these stories,

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Speaker 1: the ability of the grandmothers to help them select one

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Speaker 1: problem to focus on. And that seems that sounds very simple,

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Speaker 1: but actually, when you're immersed in all these problems, every

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Speaker 1: single one of those problems is a big problem for you.

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Speaker 1: So because the grandmothers live in these communities, the actual

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Speaker 1: treatment is often not only on the bench, but it

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Speaker 1: also occurs in the community. So you can get a

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Speaker 1: grandmother meeting a client, for instance, at church. So I'll

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Speaker 1: see you this Sunday at church and you and I

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Speaker 1: can pray together. I will see you at the market

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Speaker 1: and we can do this together. So you're slowly introducing

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Speaker 1: a very practice called kind of behavior activation to help

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Speaker 1: someone who is depressed and unmotivated and isolating themselves at

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Speaker 1: home because they feel they are in this miserable situation.

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Speaker 1: But because the grandmother has come up with this set

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Speaker 1: of activities that they then carry out together, you slowly

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Speaker 1: begin to see this person transforming, you know. So that's

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Speaker 1: one sort of example of how the grandmothers will deal

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Speaker 1: with situations of depression. Often people think the work we

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Speaker 1: do is just on the bench. The bench, the friendship bench,

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Speaker 1: or the bench. The physical bench is just an entry point.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot more that happens outside of the bench.

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Speaker 1: We encourage everyone who sat on the bench with the

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Speaker 1: grandmother is to join a support group in the community.

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Speaker 1: And through the support groups that you get peer support

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Speaker 1: with individuals who've all gone through the friendship bench, share

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Speaker 1: their own experiences and collectively problems solved around challenges that

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Speaker 1: they are facing within the community. I'd love if you

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Speaker 1: could talk about the efficacy of the program, because you

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Speaker 1: actually ran a randomized control trial, which is considered the

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Speaker 1: gold standard of evaluation, and found some extremely exciting results. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we have over fifty peer reviewed publications, you know,

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Speaker 1: scientific publications about the Friendship Bench, But I guess the

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00:27:43,876 --> 00:27:49,356
Speaker 1: most seminal publication would be our cluster randomized controlled trial,

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Speaker 1: which is published in the Journal of the American Medical Association,

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Speaker 1: which in a nutshell, shows that six months after receiving

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Speaker 1: therapy from a trained community grandmother on a bench in Zimbabwe,

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Speaker 1: people were steal symptom free. The grandmother where in essentially

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Speaker 1: much better than enhanced usual care. And enhanced usual care

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Speaker 1: was a trained mental health nurse, clinical psychologists or psychiatrists,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I think the reason why the grandmothers

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Speaker 1: tend to be better is because they are rooted in

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Speaker 1: their communities. The grandmothers are the custodians of local culture

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Speaker 1: and wisdom, you know. And it's positively changing the lives

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00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:39,676
Speaker 1: of grandmothers as well. Yeah. One of our most recent

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00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:44,916
Speaker 1: publication actually took a random sample of grandmothers who are

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Speaker 1: working on Friendship Bench and compared them with a similar

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00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:56,316
Speaker 1: random sample of grandmothers with similar sociodemographic characteristics, and we

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Speaker 1: found that the grandmothers who work on Friendship Bench were

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Speaker 1: a lot more resilient, They had lower rates of common

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Speaker 1: mental disorders and post traumatic stress disorder. And when we

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Speaker 1: dug deeper, we actually found that this work gave the

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Speaker 1: grandmothers a profound sense of purpose and a sense of belonging.

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Speaker 1: And this is why they do this work. It's a

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00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:22,996
Speaker 1: win win. Actually, they are not only reaching out and

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00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:27,716
Speaker 1: helping people, but it's helping them too. So one thing

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Speaker 1: that's been so exciting about the program is that the

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Speaker 1: Friendship Bench is scaling to places all over the world.

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Speaker 1: What are your future dreams for this program, like if

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Speaker 1: you could wave a magic wand what is the presence

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Speaker 1: of the friendship Bench like in communities all over the world.

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Speaker 1: The vision of Friendship Bench is to actually have a

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Speaker 1: friendship bench within walking distance everywhere. It sounds grandious, very ambitious,

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Speaker 1: but it's something that I am working towards because in

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Speaker 1: every culture, people thrive when they connect with each other.

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Speaker 1: And the Friendship Bench is not just an intervention that

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Speaker 1: addresses mental health issues. It's really an intervention that connects people,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's where the real power of this

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Speaker 1: comes from. And when you connect people, particularly using grandmothers

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Speaker 1: or the elderly, you have this profound sense of belonging

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Speaker 1: and it creates a sense of purpose, particularly for the

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Speaker 1: grandmothers and the you know so. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's what I would like to see, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the next coming years. And fortunately we are, you know,

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Speaker 1: we are gaining traction, and I just want to make

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Speaker 1: it possible for every person out there who needs to connect,

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Speaker 1: who feels they need to talk, to be able to

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Speaker 1: talk to someone who is empathic, someone who's able to

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Speaker 1: respect them and to understand them. Hey, thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: Join me next week when we hear from Quinn Lewis,

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Speaker 1: a college student who's mourning the tragic death of her

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Speaker 1: younger sister, Dixie and the future relationship she had envisioned

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Speaker 1: for them. We would always bring up how different we

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Speaker 1: were from each other, were such different people, and I

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Speaker 1: felt in the last few years that was changing and

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Speaker 1: it felt like the future felt intertwined, is how I

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Speaker 1: would put it. It felt like we were going somewhere together.

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Speaker 1: A slight change of plans is created, written in exact

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Speaker 1: get produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family

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Speaker 1: includes Tyler Greene our senior producer, Jen Guerra our senior editor,

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Speaker 1: Then Talliday our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our producer, and

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Speaker 1: Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our theme

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Speaker 1: song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight

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Speaker 1: Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so

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Speaker 1: big thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee,

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Speaker 1: tamlat and Heather Fain and of course a very special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change

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Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker, See you

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Speaker 1: next week. Is there any chance for grandfathers? When we

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Speaker 1: first started, we did involve some grandfathers. The challenge with

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Speaker 1: grandfathers is they just don't have the same ability as

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Speaker 1: grandmothers when it comes to creating space and letting people

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Speaker 1: tell their stories. Grandfathers tend to be prescriptive. They tend

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Speaker 1: to tell you what you need to do. You go

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Speaker 1: and talk to this person, and go and do this.

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Speaker 1: You know. So there's some man's plaining going on, Yes,

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of it