1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: It's known as the last mass lyncheon in the United States. 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: The moor's Ford Bridge Lynchions July twenty fifth, nineteen forty six, 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: four young African Americans are stopped on the moors Ford Bridge, 4 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: drug out of their car and murdered. They were shot 5 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: over one hundred times a piece by the mob that 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: stopped them on the bridge. Now, let's talk about lynching, 7 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: because I'm asked a lot when I speak about the 8 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: morris Ford Bridge lynching, people will say, but they weren't lynched. 9 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: By definition, a lynchon is a public killing of an 10 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: individual that did not receive due process. It doesn't have 11 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: to be a rope, it does have to be a gun, 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a knife, it doesn't have 13 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: to be a stony. All of that is a lynching. 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: So the fact that they were pulled from a vehicle, 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: tied together with rope, shot over one hundred times a piece, 16 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: with seventy different weapons is absolutely allching. So there's five 17 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: main characters. There is Lloy Harrison, who owns more land 18 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: than anybody else, and the Malcolms and the Dorseys worked 19 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: for him. Dorothy and Roger Malcolm are married on July 20 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen forty six. It was Dorothy's twentieth birthday. 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: They're best friends. George and May Murray Dorsey worked the 22 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: same farm as the Malcolms. They did a lot of 23 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: socializing together. They cared for each other and when you 24 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: found one, you usually found the other three. Lloyd Harrison 25 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: was a powerful man. He had connections to bankers, to 26 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement, to clergy, and to people involved with the Klan. 27 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: This case is a civil rights case. It's a case 28 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: that the town became immediately divided by and in some 29 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: regards still today is divided by the Malcolm's. In the Dorseys, 30 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: they were sharecroppers, so they would work mister Harrison's farm 31 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: and then sometimes they would work for other people if 32 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: they needed help. And this particular situation came about because 33 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: mister Malcolm became jealous when Miss Malcolm was shown some 34 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: attention by a neighboring farmer. And this other farmer, mister Hester. 35 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: The story goes, he picked Miss Malcolm up and swung 36 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: her around, and mister Malcolm became so enraged that he 37 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: went over and he stabbed the man in the stomach. 38 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: Now mister Hester didn't die immediately and mister Malcolm tried 39 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: to run and get away, but he was captured and 40 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: arrested and taken to jail. Well, Miss Malcolm and Miss 41 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: Dorsey repeatedly asked Lloyd Harrison to please bail him out, 42 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: because you're the largest landowner in this county and if 43 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: you bail him out, they won't kill him. But if 44 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: he's left in jail, they were afraid that a lynch 45 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: mob would go get him out of the jail and 46 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: kill him. For eleven days, Lloy Harrison said no, I'm 47 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: not going to go get him now. Mister Hester never died, 48 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: He recovered somewhat from his injuries. He always had some 49 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: issues throughout his life from being stabbed in the stomach. 50 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: But all of a sudden, eleven days later, Lloy Harrison 51 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: he goes to Miss Malcolm miss Dorsey and say, y'all 52 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: get in the car, let's go get him. So mister 53 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: Dorsey and Miss Dorsey and Miss Malcolm get into Lloyd 54 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: Harrison's car and they drive to town. Lloyd Harrison says, 55 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: y'all go down to the cafe, get you something to eat. 56 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: I've got some other business to take care of in town. 57 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: Then I'm going to baileym out, so y'all meet me 58 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: back here about five and they said okay. So they 59 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: went and got something to eat. They walked around town 60 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: a little bit and all of a sudden they see 61 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Lloyd Harrison coming with mister Malcolm. They're elated. They're like, 62 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: this is going to save his life. They get into 63 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: mister Harrison's car and instead of going back home the 64 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: way he brought them, he went the long way on 65 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: the unpaved one lane road toward the Moorsford Bridge. When 66 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: they reached the bridge, there was a car parked across 67 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: the street and other cars blocking them going through. As 68 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: he slowed down because the road was obstructed with a vehicle, 69 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: there was a man standing there in a straw hat 70 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: and a three piece suit that put his hands up 71 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: for him to stop the car. When he did, there 72 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: were a couple of cars that now pulled up behind him, 73 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: so he's blocked in. The man in the straw hat 74 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: in a three piece suit said we want mister Malcolm 75 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: get him out of the car, and the women immediately 76 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: knew what was happening and started to beg please don't 77 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: take him, and they said give us the other guy 78 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: to So now mister Malcolm and mister Dorsey are outside 79 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: of the car. They're being drugged down the embankment on 80 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: the side of the water, and they're being tied together. 81 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: Miss Dorsey recognizes several men on the bridge, caused them 82 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: by name and says, please don't hurt him, and in 83 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: the man in the straw hat in a three piece 84 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: suit said get the women out to they recognize. Now 85 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: all four are down the embankment, all four are tied together. 86 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: The man in the straw hat the three piece suit 87 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: counts one, two, three, and everybody in the mob shoots 88 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: at the four victims, and the man in the straw 89 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: hat a three piece suit does this over and over. 90 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: They ensure that everybody shoots, so everybody's equally as guilty. 91 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: And then mister Harrison is allowed to go on his way, 92 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: and literally everybody in that mob was home in time 93 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: for supper. Now, Lloyd Harrison tells law enforcement, I didn't 94 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: recognize anybody. So the largest landowner, arguably the richest man 95 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: in that county, don't recognize nobody in a group of 96 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: twenty five or thirty men, But your sharecropper female does. 97 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: That's hard to believe. This case is the coldest case 98 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: I've ever worked. I've never worked case seventy years old 99 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: or more. This case is not only inactive right now, 100 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: the FBI closed it with no arrest and nobody named 101 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: as a person of interest. Tonight I am joined by 102 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: not just two people that are in my Zone seven 103 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: and have been for over twenty years, but alone they 104 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: are remarkable legal geniuses in our community and abroad for 105 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: that matter. But we are joined by Judge Holly Hughes 106 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: and Assistant District Attorney Claire Farley. Both of them have 107 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: such a vast legal knowledge they are both advocates at heart. 108 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: Holly started as a prosecutor, then went into private practice 109 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: as a defense attorney, and today she's a judge. Claire 110 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: clerked for some of the best legal minds out there. 111 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: There. 112 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: She was in Atlanta and Fulton County in the major 113 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: Case Division. Then she was a prosecutor in the community. 114 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: And when you are assigned to open up an office 115 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: as a district attorney in a community, the word advocate 116 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: doesn't cover it. She's got just a servant's heart. And 117 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: now she is in Savannah, Georgia, where she's in the 118 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: Chatham County DA's office. So Claire, Holly, welcome, Thank you 119 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 1: for being here. 120 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Cheryl for having us. Speaking for 121 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: myself and for Holly. Holly taught me everything I know, 122 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: so not everything she knew, but. 123 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: Not everything I know exactly. So Mac, we're thrilled, both 124 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: of us are thrilled to be here because we were 125 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: lucky enough and blessed enough to be present with you 126 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: at the crime scene. And I think anybody who works 127 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: in the legal field will tell you there is nothing 128 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: better than being on the scene because you are going 129 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: to get the smells, the taste, the experience that the 130 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: victims had when they were there. So I am absolutely 131 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: open the moon to be able to talk about this 132 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: great adventure with you again. 133 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 3: As am I as am I, and I think Holly 134 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 3: said it very well. And let me just fire back 135 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 3: at you, Cheryl and say that you are also the 136 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: greatest servant to these poor souls who have been afflicted 137 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: by this terrible tragedy so many years ago. 138 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Claire, But I'll tell you I say 139 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: it all the time. I ain't done nothing of significance 140 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: by myself. Every time I've done something, You've been to 141 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: my right and Holly's been to my left or others. 142 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we have I think one of the greatest 143 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: communities to live our life through, and that is other 144 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: people that are willing to in a second's notice help somebody. So, 145 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, we're surrounded by heroes. And whenever somebody asked me, 146 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, I can't believe you haven't out, I always 147 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: say I can't imagine that's possible. I mean, how do 148 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: you burn out when you're surrounded by people that are 149 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: loving and carrying in kind and fearless and fun for 150 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: that matter. Now, Holly, let's talk a little bit about 151 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: what the Malcolms and the Dorseys did for a living. 152 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: They were sharecroppers. What does that mean? 153 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: Basically, you are working on someone else's land and not 154 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: for a whole lot of compensation. It is almost like 155 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: an indentured servant and just one step above slavery, where 156 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: you are just at that person's beck and call and 157 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: you are not paid the true value of your work. 158 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like somebody figured out a way 159 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: to have legal slavery. 160 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: It's as close as you can get. 161 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: Mac. Because Claire, when we were talking to some of 162 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: the family members, I remember them saying that the farmer 163 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: charged them for seeds if they broke a two, if 164 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: they didn't have a real good year, there were just 165 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: nothing to split for their room and board. But they 166 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: made them live on the land. They made them live 167 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: on their property. But then they charged them for living there. 168 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: They charged them for the food they ate. So I 169 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: don't know how you would ever get your head above 170 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: water to get out of there. 171 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: And I think that was the purpose too, mac that 172 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: was the purpose to keep It was a form of 173 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: economic entrenchment, economic servitude that was so rigged by the 174 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 3: farmers or the landowners. They did it on purpose to 175 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: purposely keep them in indentured servitude and or economically distressed slavery. 176 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: I mean they left. They kept the prices too high, 177 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: they kept the payments too low, in order to keep 178 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: folks staying on the land, working there the landowner's land. 179 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 3: It was very much slavery of a different form. 180 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: And if they tried to leave or run away, they 181 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: were basically charged with theft because you owed that man money. 182 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: You owe the man money, and you were not going 183 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 3: to get away from him. You just you couldn't escape it. 184 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 3: Even if you left the land, he would hunt you 185 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: down and call it an economic crime and have you 186 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: locked up. It was a vicious cycle, even post reconstruction era. 187 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: And that's my favorite thing. If you were arrested, he 188 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: would go bail you out, and he would add that 189 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: to your tab. 190 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: He would add it to the tab. He would create 191 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 3: ways to keep you. If you were working on his 192 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 3: land for thirty cents an hour or thirty cents a day, 193 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: he would create ways to. 194 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: Keep you doing that. 195 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: And so there was no end in sight. 196 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: Now, Holly, there was a meet in a couple of 197 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: days after the stabbing down in the Toller's Woods, but 198 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: nothing ever came of it, and there's no documentation of 199 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: what occurred. But I always believed that's where they were 200 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: planning their revenge. 201 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: Of course they were. This was a concerted effort. And 202 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: what is so disturbing about this case in particular is 203 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: that there were so many people involved. This wasn't a 204 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: small number of men who are saying, hey, we're not 205 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: going to put up with this. This is an entire town. 206 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: When this whole thing went down. There were men, women 207 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: and children out there to witness what happened. And to 208 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 2: this day, Max seventy seven years later, nobody is talking. 209 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: This was a planned crime, a concerted effort, and an 210 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: execution that even now as we seek answers, we can't 211 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 2: get them because people are so either scared or reluctant, 212 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: or quite frankly, just entrenched in their side. They just 213 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: don't want to give it up. They have this way 214 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: of life, they have this philosophy, they have this idea 215 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: that what they did was justified and that they're superior. 216 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: And as sad as it is to say, seventy seven 217 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: years after this crime was planned and executed, there are 218 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: still people who feel that way and will not help 219 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: and will not give up names. 220 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: But let me tell you, this is a story. 221 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: Everybody talked about, and somebody out there knows exactly who 222 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: did this. 223 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: So George and May Murray, Dorothy and Roger and Dorothy Malcolm. 224 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: They were all in their twenties and Dorothy was reported 225 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: to be seven months pregnant when these crimes occurred. And 226 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, to me, it was just a story until 227 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: we went out there. And there's something about walking it, 228 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: looking at it, like you say, Holly, breathing it in, 229 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: taking it all in, you know, and really understanding the times. 230 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: Because the area from the main road to the Moorsford 231 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: Bridge hadn't changed at all. 232 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 3: The most astonishing thing to me when you took the 233 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 3: students out to the woods, Toller Woods, and we all 234 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: were out there with very very famous civil rights activists 235 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 3: and other elected officials and some other people and your students. 236 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: I think the most astonishing thing when I was with 237 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: you was the recovery of those objects. If you could 238 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: tell everyone what you found, how many pieces of bullets, shellcasings, 239 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: that was just to me it was proof positive that 240 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 3: something terrible, at the very least from an evidentiary standpoint, 241 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: something terrible happened out there where you had your students 242 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 3: set up the grid. 243 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: My grandfather, or Watts, hunted airheads. It was always such 244 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: an amazing afternoon spent with him because he would drive 245 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: us way out in the middle of nowhere to some 246 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: old place that he knew about, or a known place 247 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: where there had been Native American history made. He would 248 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: survey the land, and then he would talk to us 249 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: and walk us through what he was looking for and 250 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: how he could spot the perfect place to hunt for 251 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: these artifacts. It was important for him to make sure 252 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: that we knew how people used to live hunt, and travel, 253 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: and if you understood those three things, you had a 254 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: better chance of finding some type of artifact, whether it 255 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: was an airhead or a piece of a clay pot 256 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: or anything. He would tell us things like, now, you girls, 257 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: go look for water, because everything happened near water. They 258 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: were either hunting or building their homes or gathering by 259 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: water for a multitude of reasons. He would also tell 260 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: us things like, you look for where two or more 261 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: creeks or rivers come together, and that's where animals would 262 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: feed or drink. So again, that's where hunters were going 263 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: to go, and we would find pottery or some type 264 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: of stone or some type of airhead. Anywhere there's good hunting, 265 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: you're going to find artifacts. That's what he would tell us. 266 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: So y'all may be wondering why a crime scene investigator 267 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: and a podcaster keeps referring to her students. Back in 268 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: twenty ten, when we were working the moors Ford Bridge 269 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: through the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, I was a 270 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: college teacher. So the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute is 271 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: a nonprofit that uses experts in college students at different 272 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: colleges and universities to look at cold cases and find 273 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: sevil ability factors. So the moors Ford Bridge was one 274 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: of our cases at the institute, So that's how I 275 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: first got involved. So I am a crime scene investigator 276 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: for a living, but I run the Cold Case Investigative 277 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: Research Institute as an aside as volunteer work. Within our 278 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: work at the institute, one thing I used to always 279 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: tell the students and I still remind them today, nothing 280 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: that I was going to do with them was going 281 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: to be mock or fake. Everything we did was real. 282 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: So when it came time to go look for evidence, 283 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: we had to leave the college. We had to go 284 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: to the crime scene. You cannot understand a crime scene 285 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: if you don't walk it, if you don't touch it, 286 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: if you don't smell it, if you don't just immerse 287 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: yourself with it. If you look at photographs two dimensional, 288 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: that's all the help they're ever going to be to you. 289 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: You can only focus on what is in that picture. 290 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: But if you go to the scene, you can see 291 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: where it took place, you can see what's across the street, 292 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: through the woods, down the road. It's a whole different ballgame. 293 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: So for the students and the experts, it was necessary 294 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: that we went to the crime scene. Well, I think 295 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: that's another thing. Having you and Holly there as prosecutors. 296 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: Holly would tell the students over and over and over 297 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: if this were to ever go to trial, what is 298 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 1: it I need? And they would name things and they 299 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: would say what they would want to happen in a 300 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: perfect world, and Holly would always say, well, then go 301 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: get it. Go figure out how to do that. So 302 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: when we made the decision that we were going to 303 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: go out there, one of the things that happened pretty 304 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: quickly is Holly said, well, you don't need a warrant 305 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: if you get permission. Well, let's go talk to the 306 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: farmer and get permission. So that's the first thing we did. 307 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: And then once he said y as, you you know, 308 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: can come and you can figure out the area, and 309 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: you want to look, you know, look at when we 310 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: did that. It was not an open field, It was 311 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: not clean, it was not for you know, it was 312 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: full of debris and trees, and there were mattresses and 313 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 1: beer cans. Because again, this is a place that is 314 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: known to locals. It is known to people that want 315 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: to go out there and shoot their own gun and 316 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: drink beer and be in that type of environment where 317 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: to me it would be I don't even know how 318 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: to say it, y'all, because again you're going out drinking 319 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: and shooting guns at a place where you know, four 320 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: people were murdered. So again we had to get rid 321 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: of all that stuff. We moved mattresses, My son Hug 322 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: was cutting down trees, Caroline was taking trash bags, you know, 323 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: up to the truck. And once we got it all 324 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: cleaned out and cleared out and you started to be 325 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: able to see the ground everywhere. That's when we had 326 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: the archaeologists from Kennessou and their students and the ex 327 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: experts from dn R and the students from Georgia State 328 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 1: with their computer system and we went to work and 329 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: within the first forty five minutes we had our first 330 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: shell casing. After three days we had over one hundred bullets, fragments, 331 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: casings or artifacts that with the experts, most of them 332 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: were able to be predated, you know pre nineteen fifty. 333 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: Didn't you have Also a former GBI forensics firearms forensics 334 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 3: expert I came out and it was clear that people 335 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: had as any I think any place that is tragically 336 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: imbued with horrible history, I think the locals come out 337 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: and use it after that as well as a gathering 338 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: place young people. I think that it was clear that 339 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: they had used it as target practice of some type. 340 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 3: I remember that. 341 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: In the bridge had graffiti. They had KKK all over 342 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: the bridge. So again it's young people not truly understanding, 343 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: because if they truly got it, that's not what they 344 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: would do. I mean, it was clearly the graffiti was juvenile. 345 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: It was placed so you couldn't miss it if you tried. 346 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: But again, they're out there and they're misguided. That's all 347 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: there is to it. 348 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of being out there, I know we keep 349 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: saying the students, the students, but what actually touched my 350 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: heart was these are students who were volunteering. They were 351 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: not getting college credit for this, they were not getting 352 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: paid for this. They literally were doing this seeking knowledge 353 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: for the fact that it was knowledge, seeking history, learning 354 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: what happened because the Malcolms and the dor Seas mattered. 355 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: And so when we went out there in twenty ten, 356 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: you know, fifty some years after the crime, these students 357 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: were out there just to learn and to help. They 358 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: were being rewarded in any other way. It was knowledge 359 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 2: for the sake of knowledge. It was help and volunteerism 360 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: for the sake of making a difference. 361 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And so were you, and so was Claire, 362 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: and so was Chris, and so was you know, the 363 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: good doctor from Kennessall, and so was the guy from DNR. 364 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: I mean, all of these people came together and we 365 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: had a group of family members that came up. Do 366 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: you remember that? And they wanted to see what we 367 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: were finding. And they were astonished because they had been told, oh, 368 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: there's nothing here, there'll be no evidence, and if there is, 369 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: it's just because other people were doing target practice. But 370 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: then we started to find things like, you know, cardboard 371 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: shell casings and a nickel from nineteen forty six and 372 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: a button pre nineteen fifty and Georgia States said, hey, look, 373 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: these bullets are like two inches straight down into the ground, 374 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: like somebody stood right over and shot them. Well, that 375 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: made more sense. These bullets weren't going in at an angle. 376 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: They weren't like a misshot like you missed the tree. 377 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: They were all right there. And then at one point Hollymember, 378 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: we walked over and there were four sets of what 379 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: I would call like a cluster, a center mass the 380 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: size of a sausle plate, like that's where the four 381 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: people were laying. You could almost see it. 382 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: That also speaks to the fact that we were able 383 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: fifty some years later to go out and gather it 384 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: at evidence tells me that nobody looked for it in 385 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: the first place. We should have gone out there and 386 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: searched that property and found nothing. If in fact, law 387 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: enforcement at the time had done their job and had 388 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: gathered those you know, you wouldn't be digging down two 389 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 2: inches into the dirt. You would actually see where it 390 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: was and recover it at the time. So I just 391 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: fifty some years later, over one hundred artifacts, over one 392 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: hundred whether it be shellcasings or fragments, or bullets or buttons. 393 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: All of that evidence was sitting there almost. 394 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 2: Like it was just waiting to be discovered, like waiting 395 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: for someone to care enough to tell the story. 396 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: And Claire mentioned Chris, who we all know from the 397 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: crime lab, and he took several bullets that were recovered 398 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: in casings and he was pointing out the striations and 399 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: he was like, you have at least five different thirty eighths, 400 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: and at that time that would have been considered a 401 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: police weapon. We have a witness that said there was 402 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: a police car on the bridge. So it's like you start, 403 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, slowly putting these tiny pieces together, but it 404 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: paints the same sinister picture. 405 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 3: I had forgotten that. It's been several years since we 406 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 3: were out there, but it never left my mind. It 407 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 3: has been a story that had haunted me since you 408 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: took us out there, Ryl, and I had forgotten that 409 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 3: there were clear signs of multiple different guns, I think 410 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 3: even multiple rifles. 411 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely did you. 412 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 3: Not find rifles bullets and shell casings from rifles? And 413 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 3: we talked about at the time, we talked about there 414 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: must have been as is reputed through historical documentation, there 415 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 3: were several shooters. They didn't have a chance. There was 416 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 3: no way they were not going to be bullet ridden 417 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 3: against that tree. 418 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't set a chance. And you know, and 419 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: I think when even the autopsies were happening and they 420 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: started to, you know, give information for people that you 421 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: know they were beaten first and then they were mutilated. 422 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: I mean, this wasn't a fast We're going to make 423 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: sure because you almost killed somebody that you're not going 424 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: to have a chance to kill anybody else. If that's 425 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: what it was, it would have been one person. They 426 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: went back and got mister Dorsey, and then they went 427 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: back and got the two women. And they got the 428 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: two women because they were naming them by a name, 429 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: pleading with them not to kill their men. And Lloy Harrison, 430 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: if you remember, Lloy Harrison, didn't recognize anybody. 431 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: Mister Dorsey, George Dorsey hadn't he wasn't he coming home 432 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 3: from the war. I think he was returning from the 433 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 3: war fighting for his country. 434 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: Correct, he had been in World War Two. Now, Holly, 435 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: I do remember one thing about you. So everybody told 436 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: us once we stopped at the gas station, or once 437 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: we stopped and got something to drink or made our 438 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: present stone, that it would go through the town. Well, 439 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: we weren't out there long before there was a red 440 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: truck that would come down the hill pretty quick, then 441 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: slow down right where we were, and then speed up again, 442 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: do a k turn, come back down, deliberately, backfire the truck. 443 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: And this went on for a minute. And then we 444 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: had several students that were eager to get to their vehicles, 445 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: not to drive away, by the way, And so you 446 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: and Claire, of course did a great job and gave 447 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: some quick legal advice on the scene that hey, we're 448 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: not going to do that. 449 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: I think it amounted to duck. 450 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: That's just duck, hit the ground, hit the ground. But 451 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: you know that you don't need to get to your 452 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: truck and try to get anything to do anything. We're 453 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: going to do this the right way. And that's something 454 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: I always appreciated because I think they learned a lot 455 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: in that moment of how you do the right thing 456 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: and you know, you want to carry this through with 457 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: all the professionalism that you can. And after that great 458 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: speech you gave them, I'm looking back toward the grid 459 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: and I'm talking to doctor you know, Palace, and then 460 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: I turn around and you are standing in the middle 461 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: of the street, Honting. Tell them what you did well. 462 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: First of all, it just made me angry that they 463 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: would try to intimidate these students when they're out there 464 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: just learning and trying to help family members get closure. 465 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: And I thought, we are not we're not abused, let's 466 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: start with that. But we're also not intimidated. We're not 467 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: afraid of you. So I just pulled out my phone 468 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: and started getting pictures and recording and taking pictures of 469 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: the license plate and the people driving the truck, because 470 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: if anything did happen, God forbid, that's evidence. That's what 471 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: you build your case on. That's how I know who 472 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: was here on that bridge that day in twenty ten. 473 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: We may not have discovered yet exactly who was on 474 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: the bridge back in forty six, but damn it, we 475 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: knew who was on that bridge in twenty ten because 476 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: I made sure we had documentary evidence. 477 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: We knew without question who was on the bridge in 478 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: twenty ten. And then after Holly got the video evidence 479 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: and we had all of our findings and everything was 480 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: bagged and tagged properly. Claire, you made a phone call 481 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: because as an active DA you said, let me call 482 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: and see if they will come out and collect this evidence. 483 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: Who did you call and what was their response? 484 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: I called. 485 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: I was concerned about chain of custody and preservation of 486 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 3: the evidence. I called the FBI directly, and I ended 487 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 3: up getting in touch with an agent and he seemed 488 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 3: very frustrated and or not anxious to deal with me 489 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: at the moment, and I think he was trying to 490 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 3: ascertain what it was we were talking about. But I 491 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: was very clear that we had some artifacts that we've 492 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 3: felt were important to log in as a potential evidence 493 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 3: in a cold case, and that's what I called a 494 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: cold case. I think the reception was a little bit 495 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 3: less than enthusiastic. 496 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: And they didn't come I do. 497 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 3: Not recall them coming out there. 498 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: No, But again, like I sometimes try to tell my 499 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: own children, it's illegal to run a red light, it 500 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: is not illegal to stop on green. So you just 501 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: got to figure out another way to do something. 502 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: That was thirteen years ago. I didn't know as many 503 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 3: folks over there as I do now, and I was disappointed, 504 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: to say the least. I think Mac you ended up 505 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 3: having a further or shall we say, journey to try 506 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 3: to reach there get their attention right. 507 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: They finally showed up at my office and retrieved them, 508 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 1: but I mean they made me feel like they were 509 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: going to walk out of there and toss it in 510 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: a dumpster. I mean, I didn't get the feeling they 511 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: were going to even try to look at them for 512 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: research or look at them for the historical part that 513 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: they may play in this whole thing. Because there was 514 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: some extraordinary evidence there. And when I say evidence, I 515 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: mean even evidence of nineteen forty. 516 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 3: Six extraordinary extraordinary. 517 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: That was one of the fascinating things about the shotgun 518 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: cartridges that were left behind is that our ballistics expert, Chris, 519 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: was able to date them because there was such a 520 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: huge concern about you know, are these bullet casings and 521 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: fragments from the crime or are they subsequent when people 522 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: were out there shooting and drinking on the land. And 523 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: I think what really hit home for me was when 524 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: our ballistics expert was able to examine and say, after 525 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: a certain date, they did not make cartridge casings anymore. 526 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: So we are not out of cardboard, so we know 527 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: for sure that these artifacts are related to this specific 528 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: period in time. And the FBI had a Civil Rights 529 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,239 Speaker 2: Bureau at that time. They had lawyers and investigators who 530 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: should have been jumping up and down saying, oh my gosh, 531 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 2: we can look into this cold case. And it was disappointing, 532 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: I think, to realize that they weren't prioritizing it and 533 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: they weren't really interested because again, what do we say, 534 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: these people mattered, the malcolms the door seas they mattered, 535 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: they deserve better. 536 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: And talking about lawyers jumping up and down, Claire Well 537 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: goes through what happened with the Eleventh Circuit. 538 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 3: It was fascinating from a legal standpoint. Laura Wexler, who 539 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 3: wrote I think the definitive book on Morris Ford Lynching 540 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 3: Fire in the Cane Break. She and Anthony Pitch, who 541 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 3: is also a historian, hired Joe Bell of Bell and 542 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: Chievas and they mister Bell filed a series of motions 543 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 3: that eventually to shortened long procedural boring lecture eventually made 544 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 3: it to the Eleventh Circuit, and it was interesting prior 545 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: to that, in the U s District Court, Middle District, 546 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 3: they actually won the decision to have the grand jury 547 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 3: and records opened unsealed, the grand jury records, there was 548 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 3: a lot of investigation. Laura documents that thoroughly in her 549 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 3: book Fire in the cambrig The FBI had been involved, 550 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: they had interviewed people, and they sealed the grand jury records. 551 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 3: So the grand jury records have been sealed for seventy 552 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 3: plus years. They the historians, through mister Bell, filed a 553 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 3: petition to have them opened, and they won in the 554 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 3: Middle District US Court. Unfortunately, the entire decision was then 555 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 3: appealed by at that time the US Department of Justice, 556 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 3: and they took it up to the higher circuits Eleventh Circuit, 557 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 3: and they had an en banc decision, which is everybody 558 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 3: in the room. They put all the judges in the 559 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 3: room and asked the Eleventh Circuit why did you go 560 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 3: back on this decision? Why why not allow us to 561 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 3: open these grand jury records? And the court you could tell? 562 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 3: The Eleventh Circuit subsequently held after oral argument on October 563 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 3: twenty second, twenty nineteen, the Court was really conflicted by 564 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 3: having those grand jury records, whether they had the judicial 565 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 3: authority to actually have those grand jury records unsealed. They 566 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: seemed to focus on the Civil Rights Records Act of 567 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, which had just been passed, and they seemed 568 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: to say, you haven't, mister Bell, you haven't exhausted your 569 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 3: efforts to go back before the Congress and see if 570 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: the law applies. I think mister Bell was arguing that 571 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 3: they were historically significant, which would fall within the exceptions 572 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 3: as to why the judges would have the authority to 573 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 3: open the grand jury records. It's very complicated argument, but 574 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 3: suffice it to say, mister Bell, as of August of 575 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,959 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, he had petitioned for search to the United 576 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 3: States Supreme Court, and as we know what happened in 577 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, I'm sure COVID caused a delay in the 578 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 3: Court actually reaching any kind of decision making as to 579 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: whether they will hear that petition. It is astonishing to 580 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 3: me that the United States Department of Justice argued to 581 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 3: keep the grand jury records sealed, and that to me 582 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 3: is where we should focus our attention from a legal standpoint. 583 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 3: I'm not talking about from an evidential area or a 584 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 3: historical or electoral should I say standpoint, but I am 585 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 3: talking about from a legal standpoint. We should do everything 586 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 3: possible we can to support mister Bell if he is 587 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 3: continuing with these actions to ask the Supreme United States 588 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 3: Supreme Court to allow those grand jury records to be 589 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 3: unsealed for historical significance in cold cases, particularly this one. 590 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 3: There is no other case to me that demonstrates the 591 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 3: need for that more than this case, Amen and Holly. 592 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: How important would it be for us to be able 593 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: to read actual testimony invaluable? 594 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: It reminds me of those you know, MasterCard or Visa commercials. 595 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 2: You know, what is this ten dollars? What is that 596 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: twenty dollars? What is this priceless? It's priceless. You cannot 597 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 2: quant to find how important it would be to number one, 598 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 2: who were the witnesses. Let's just get the names, and 599 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 2: then if they are deceased, which is highly likely after 600 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: all this time, then you talk to their family members. 601 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 2: This is an event that has been talked about. You 602 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: do not execute four people, including a pregnant woman, and 603 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: then go home and never mention it. Of course they 604 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 2: told people. Of course, some of those families probably still 605 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: have the guns in the hope chest or under the bed. 606 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 2: It's probably a family heirloom at this point. So you 607 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: cannot quantify the importance of looking at the original investigation 608 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 2: because I go back to how much of an investigation 609 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: did you get due when we pulled out one hundred 610 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 2: artifacts from the ground fifty years after the fact. So 611 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: the most important thing we need to know is who 612 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 2: was spoken to and who spoke, who talked, who said what, 613 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 2: and then can start to track those family members through 614 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 2: time and find out what story were you told about 615 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: this horrible event. 616 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: Well, I read where Lloyd Harrison testified to the grand 617 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: jury for eight hours. That's an awful long time for 618 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: somebody that don't know nothing. 619 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: That's a whole lot of talking. 620 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: I mean, all you did was drive from town to 621 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: the bridge, didn't recognize nobody, didn't participate at all, and 622 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: was told to go home for supper. 623 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, in a little bit of town like that, you 624 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 2: know everybody. 625 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: Of course, But what's he talking about for eight hours? 626 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: I want to know. I want to be able to 627 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: read that. I want to know what every witness said 628 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: that they brought in. They brought in what one hundred 629 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: and something. 630 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: Witnesses and got nowhere with it. 631 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: And you know, our court houses are supposed to be open. 632 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: It's not supposed to be a secret. 633 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And that's what I had such a 634 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: hard time struggling with. Why with the government, why with 635 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 3: the federal government have any interest in keeping those records sealed? 636 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 3: I did not see the purpose behind that. I Laura 637 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 3: Wexler asked me. She said, I know what I want 638 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 3: out of this. I know, you know, I've written a book. 639 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 3: I want attention paid, and I know other people are 640 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 3: here for other reasons. What do you want? And I 641 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 3: thought about it for a minute, and I thought, I 642 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 3: don't think I ever adequately answered her question. And I 643 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 3: started thinking about it, and I thought, I really want justice, 644 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 3: and if not justice, you know, Mac, you and I 645 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 3: talked about if we can't get justice, could we at 646 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 3: least get the truth. Let's just hear the truth. And 647 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 3: I think if we could unseal those records and hear 648 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 3: the or see the investigation, as Holly mentioned, see the witnesses, 649 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 3: hear what the witnesses had to say, hear what Lloy 650 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 3: Harrison had to say, I think that we will come 651 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 3: closer to the truth than ever before. I don't think 652 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 3: that we are ever going to be able to prosecute 653 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 3: from a prosecute her standpoint, I think right now, and 654 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 3: I can tell you growing up from in a small town, 655 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 3: there are some family members who are probably ashamed, who 656 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 3: are probably ashamed of what has occurred in their family tree. 657 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 3: And if that's the case, please just consider the golden 658 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 3: reward that you may have in heaven someday if you 659 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 3: would just tell the truth. 660 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: Holly, when we went back you and I did something. 661 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: I think it was super cool to me. Whenever you 662 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: can walk a scene, that's great, and it's to me 663 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: it's imperative to know the route the killer took. And 664 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: we went back out with drones, and the drone was 665 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: eye level of an average adult person. And that drone 666 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: went right down from the roadway down the embankment at 667 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 1: the bridge, all the way through the woods, down along 668 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: the river and back up the farm. 669 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 2: When you have a really good storyteller, they can use 670 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 2: words to paint a picture for you. And now our 671 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,240 Speaker 2: technology has advanced that we don't just have to rely 672 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 2: on that, but we can transport. And Claire mentioned this, 673 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 2: We're never going to see a prosecution. All of the 674 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 2: players are dead. We're just looking for the truth what 675 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 2: happened out there. But I still think about the value 676 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,879 Speaker 2: of that drone footage because if you can show that 677 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 2: in a courtroom or two people who were not there, 678 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 2: you are painting that picture and you don't just have 679 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: to use words. We can now send you. I mean, 680 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 2: Claire's probably done this. I know I personally have as 681 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I've gone up in the helicopter to get 682 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: aerial shots. And this is pre drone technology. Okay, this 683 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 2: is me with my little ada suit on, hop it 684 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: in the you know, into a helicopter with the police 685 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 2: department and going up and saying I need aerial shots 686 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 2: and they're using, you know, like a long range camera. 687 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: There were no drones back in the day. I mean, 688 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 2: that's showing my age, but okay, And so to actually 689 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 2: have a technology where you and I are standing on 690 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 2: the bridge and we are looking down into that field 691 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 2: where those poor people lost their lives, and then you 692 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 2: bring the drone up and the drone shows you this 693 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: is the viewpoint, this is the passageway, this is the 694 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 2: traveling route. It's just invaluable to telling the story. 695 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: And since it hasn't really changed, and you still have 696 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: one farm connected to the next farm connected to the woods, 697 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: then the river breaks it and then you've got more 698 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,760 Speaker 1: farms and more land and more woods. When that drone 699 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: went up, you also knew they had nowhere to run. 700 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 3: Oh, that's definitely true. I mean the river was on 701 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 3: one side, the road was facing them. They had nowhere 702 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 3: to go, and there was farmland to their left that 703 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,919 Speaker 3: was open field, which even if they had run and 704 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 3: or been allowed to run, they would have been just 705 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 3: shot to pieces. 706 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: And you know, there's so many photographs. This made the 707 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal Constitution and there's several with Lloy Harrison, the 708 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: coroner and the sheriff in the photographs I have pointed out, 709 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: the sheriff is not wearing a firearm. He didn't have 710 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: a hole star at all. Well, there's one quote where 711 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: he says, well, let somebody borrow it. 712 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:39,839 Speaker 2: Now. 713 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if y'all hear that as sinister and 714 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: horrible as I do. But is he trying to tell 715 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,760 Speaker 1: us he gave that weapon to somebody on that bridge, 716 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: because that's how it sounds. 717 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 2: Well, either let somebody take it or used it himself 718 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 2: and didn't want it for comparison purposes any longer. 719 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 3: I think that there is. I don't know any sheriff 720 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 3: in the world except maybe Andy Griffith. 721 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 2: Dandy the deputy would be the one to lose it. 722 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 3: No, no, but I don't say and didn't wear one exactly. 723 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 3: There's no sheriff in the world that doesn't know exactly 724 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 3: where his thirty eight is at all times. 725 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: Yep. And then the other thing that caught me on 726 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: that photo shoot that they did was Number One, how 727 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: fast the newspaper showed up and how would the newspaper 728 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: know that Lloyd Harrison was walking the sheriff through what 729 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: happened at that moment? So that bothered me that they 730 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 1: would even know this was going on. And Lloyd Harrison 731 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: is literally there's a couple of pictures where he is 732 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: showing the sheriff how they were bound and he's got 733 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: his wrists together showing him this is how they were 734 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: tied together. So you saw all that, you witnessed all 735 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: that you tried, of course, to not stop anything. You 736 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: didn't go run for help when they let you go, 737 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: You didn't run to the sheriff. Once you got to safety, 738 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 1: you let it happen. And that was about it. But 739 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: when you look at those photographs, to me, they tell 740 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: a bigger part of this whole story. 741 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 3: I think your point is well taken. I saw those 742 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 3: photographs as well. I think that they had some sort 743 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 3: of there was some sort of arrogance to the photographs, 744 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 3: some sort of sinister arrogance, which I have always thought 745 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 3: that the coincidences were so bizarre. You can fill in 746 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 3: the facts from the gaps in information about how did 747 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 3: someone know when mister Dorsey and his friends and his 748 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 3: wife were leaving the jail, you know, things of that nature. 749 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 3: How did they know and remember the back road that 750 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 3: was taken as opposed to the straight road. 751 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: Yes, when they get into town. Lloyd Harrison tells the 752 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: Dorseys and miss Malcolm, y'all go get some deep. I'm 753 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: going to go take care of some other business, and 754 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: then I'm going to go get Roger. Why is he 755 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: using all this time up? Why is he delaying it? 756 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: Why didn't he go there, bail the man out and 757 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: go straight home if they were worried about somebody coming 758 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: to revenge Barnett Hester and killing him, I wouldn't have 759 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: wasted a whole lot of time if I thought people 760 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,400 Speaker 1: were going to be mad at me for bailing this 761 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,280 Speaker 1: man out that tried to kill a fellow farmer. 762 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 2: Well, and that's the flip side to it, is that meeting, 763 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 2: that prior meeting, what were they talking about. They had 764 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,359 Speaker 2: time to plan this, and I think what you can 765 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 2: infer from the facts is that he had no intention 766 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 2: of taking them home. They were never going home again, 767 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 2: and he needed to delay it so that things worked 768 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 2: on a time clock that somebody else was watching. He 769 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 2: was watching his clock. But let me tell you something. 770 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 2: There was a whole other crowd of people in a 771 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 2: different location trying to get it together so they could 772 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 2: be that execution squad up on that bridge. 773 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: Right, John Well. I cannot thank y'all enough for being 774 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,280 Speaker 1: with me tonight and talking about some of our old days. 775 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: And I'm going to end Zone seven the way that 776 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: I always do with a quote from somebody in my 777 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: Zone seven and tonight that comes from Joseph Hunter, a 778 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: moor's Fordbridge resident and victim. Have a lot of emotion 779 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 1: left from the days of the murders. My whole family 780 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: still carries scars. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.