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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, hope everybody is enjoying your Thanksgiving weekend. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do a bit of a longer interview where

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Speaker 1: we had some real time to flesh out a lot

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Speaker 1: of the complexities and the mythology surrounding the long standing

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Speaker 1: Israeli Palestinian conflict and also of course the context of

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Speaker 1: this current war on Gaza, and I thought to do that,

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Speaker 1: we'd bring in doctor Norman Finkelstein, who is an author,

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Speaker 1: professor of political science who's also studied this conflict for

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Speaker 1: literally decades, devote much of his adult life to it,

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Speaker 1: authored a number of books on the subject, in particular

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Speaker 1: one that I'm reading right now, Gaza An Inquest into

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Speaker 1: its Martyrdom.

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Speaker 3: To dive into all of these topics. It's so great

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Speaker 3: to have you, professor.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, And what I did in preparation for

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Speaker 1: this conversation because I really wanted to ask all the

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Speaker 1: things that people have been wondering about, but maybe they

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Speaker 1: didn't know who to ask, or they didn't know how

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Speaker 1: to ask it, or they were embarrassed to ask it.

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Speaker 1: So we open it up to our subscribers to really

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Speaker 1: ask anything that they wanted to do about this conflict.

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Speaker 1: So I hope this will be a wide ranging conversation

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Speaker 1: that people find illuminating. I hope it'll be a challenging conversation.

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Speaker 1: We'll tackle all of the things that are uncomfortable about

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Speaker 1: it and get into all of those pieces.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad and I hope that you'll do what

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Speaker 4: Candy is.

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Speaker 5: Oh. Instead, whereas something doesn't sound right to you, something

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Speaker 5: doesn't sound logical to you, something doesn't sound convincing to you,

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Speaker 5: ask me, and I think I can connect the dots.

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Speaker 5: But sometimes when you speak rapidly, you miss some adults,

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Speaker 5: and so sometimes you need to home in and look

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Speaker 5: at each dot to connect the pattern.

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Speaker 1: I will certainly do my best with all of that,

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Speaker 1: So The first question does actually come from our audience,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was a good starting point, which is

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Speaker 1: about your origins. Can we start with just having doctor

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Speaker 1: Finkelstein give basic info on himself growing up and what

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Speaker 1: formed his thoughts opinions on this issue. And I was

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Speaker 1: also curious, you know what led you to this lifelong

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Speaker 1: interest and scholarship on Israel and Palestine.

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Speaker 4: I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

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Speaker 5: My parents came over after the war, as we called it,

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Speaker 5: the war meaning World War Two. They were in Warsaw Ghetto.

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Speaker 5: They grew up in Poland. They were in the Warsaw

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Speaker 5: Ghetto from nineteen forty until nineteen forty three.

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Speaker 4: After the ghetto.

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Speaker 5: Uprising was suppressed by the Nazis. My parents, having survived

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Speaker 5: the war so ghetto uprising, were deported to my the

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Speaker 5: Neck concentration camp.

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Speaker 4: My mother then ended up in two slave labor camps.

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Speaker 5: My father ended up according to my mother because I

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Speaker 5: never actually asked my father, my father was in seven

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Speaker 5: concentration camps, ended up in Auschwitz. Was on the Auschwitz

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Speaker 5: Death March. Every member of my family on both sides, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents,

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Speaker 5: everyone was exterminated during the war. As my mother used

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Speaker 5: to say to us growing up, we are just five

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Speaker 5: people in the world, and that was literally the case.

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Speaker 5: I grew up in the lower middle class neighborhood. My

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Speaker 5: parents were not lower middle class. They were working class. However,

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Speaker 5: they were determined to give us, meaning the children, a

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Speaker 5: crack at the American dream. And so we grew up

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Speaker 5: in the lower middle class neighborhood, but excellent schools. The

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Speaker 5: high school I attended, among the graduates of my high school,

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Speaker 5: or Chuck Schumer, Bernie Sanders, Judge Judy, five believe it

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Speaker 5: or not, five Nobel laureates attended my public high school,

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Speaker 5: Norm Coleman, the senator from Minnesota. We got a very

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Speaker 5: solid education, no question about that. And Jews were back

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Speaker 5: then very ambitious and they got to realize in large

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Speaker 5: part the American dream. Most of my friends are spectacular

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Speaker 5: success stories. So that was how I grew up. On

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Speaker 5: the surface, I was just one of those graduates of

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Speaker 5: James Madison High School in New York. But if you

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Speaker 5: scratch the surface, I was kind of an alien bean.

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Speaker 5: Because my parents were survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. They had,

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Speaker 5: by any conventional standards, very eccentric politics. They were totally

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Speaker 5: pro Soviet Union, totally pro Stalin. They wouldn't brook any

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Speaker 5: criticism of the Soviet Union or Stalin in my home.

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Speaker 5: And so I grew up having to adjust to the

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Speaker 5: fact that in many ways I was an outsider, and

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Speaker 5: I had to accept that I had to learn to

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Speaker 5: live with that status. Actually the most traumatizing aspect of

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Speaker 5: my youth, of my childhood, because they could never really

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Speaker 5: assimilate what happened to my parents when they would read

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Speaker 5: books about the Nazi Holocaust. As a very young child, Okay,

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Speaker 5: now young child, you'd say, around thirteen years old, I

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Speaker 5: would be reading a book in account of the Warsaw Ghetto,

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Speaker 5: say leon Uris's Leon Heuris Is Mila eighteen or John

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Speaker 5: Hershey's The Wall, and I remember I'm reading the book,

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Speaker 5: glancing down at the text, and it's driving these Jews

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Speaker 5: in the Warsaw Ghetto and they're in these things called

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Speaker 5: bunkers and these catacombs, and everybody's starving to death in

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Speaker 5: this ghetto. And then I'm looking up and I'm looking

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Speaker 5: at my mother, and I just couldn't I literally, I

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Speaker 5: couldn't make the imaginative leap from what I was reading

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Speaker 5: to the what you might say the mundane existence of

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Speaker 5: growing up an ordinary home in Brooklyn, New York. But also,

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Speaker 5: as I said, I learned to be an outsider from

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Speaker 5: a very early age. The most traumatizing event of my youth,

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Speaker 5: as I mentioned a moment ago, was I was in

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Speaker 5: bar Mitzford and.

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Speaker 4: In the Jewish neighborhood.

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Speaker 5: That was literally it was unthinkable, because bar Mitzvah was

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Speaker 5: kind of the equivalent if you're not Jewish, you have

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Speaker 5: said you're a young woman. It's a coming out party

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Speaker 5: where the family uses the occasion to display its wealth,

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Speaker 5: display its earthly success and.

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Speaker 4: All of that.

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Speaker 5: And I didn't get to pass through that ritual, and

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Speaker 5: it was actually quite humiliating. So I would say from

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Speaker 5: a quite young age, I had grown inured to the

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Speaker 5: fact that I was, in many respects and outsider. How

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Speaker 5: I got involved in the Israel Palestine conflict was really sevendipuity.

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure if seven diputy is the right word,

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Speaker 5: because that usually means chancing upon a happy event. It

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Speaker 5: was all by chance in June nineteen eighty two Israel

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Speaker 5: in Lebanon. The war lasted for three and a half months.

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Speaker 5: The estimates are Israel killed fifteen to twenty thousand Lebanese

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Speaker 5: and Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians. I got involved in the protests

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Speaker 5: around the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and at some point

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Speaker 5: I started to study the conflict, and then it turned

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Speaker 5: into my doctoral citation in graduate school.

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Speaker 4: And then as I was doing.

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Speaker 5: The research for the doctoral dissertation, I stumbled upon this

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Speaker 5: national bestseller.

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Speaker 4: It had just come out.

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Speaker 5: It was called From Time Immemorial, and it was heaped

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Speaker 5: with praise, and this was going This was the book,

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Speaker 5: it was said, that was going to change our understanding

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Speaker 5: of the whole conflict. I was curious because I was

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Speaker 5: writing my doctor dissertation on a related aspect, not on

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Speaker 5: that aspect.

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Speaker 4: Of the book.

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Speaker 5: And I then, after assiduously examining the book, its footnotes,

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Speaker 5: and its internal logic and coherence, I was able to

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Speaker 5: demonstrate that this national bestseller, which the whole Jewish intelligentsia

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Speaker 5: class had heaped praise on, the.

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Speaker 4: Book was a hoax.

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Speaker 5: And at that point, I guess you could say I

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Speaker 5: now plug into this area of intellectual inquiry and political activism,

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Speaker 5: and if I stood by it, for forty years. It's

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Speaker 5: because the conflict never ended. I'm not a quitter, It's

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Speaker 5: just not in my nature. I am very stubborn, except

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Speaker 5: when it comes to truth and facts. If you convince

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Speaker 5: me I'm wrong, I will concede I'm wrong. My creedown

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Speaker 5: life has always been never quarrel with facts. If I'm wrong,

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Speaker 5: I simply have to acknowledge it and move on. Otherwise

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Speaker 5: I'm betraying my principles. Sometimes I see a fact and

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Speaker 5: I see I'm wrong, and I try to weazle my

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Speaker 5: way out of it in my mind, and at some

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Speaker 5: point I say, norm stop, you're wrong, accept it, acknowledge

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Speaker 5: it because that's a bedrock principle for you, and move on.

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Speaker 5: So I will not be stubborn about facts if I'm wrong. However,

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Speaker 5: I don't give up on the cause I'm not a

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Speaker 5: fair weather friend and I don't pullowp with the wind,

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Speaker 5: and I don't think anybody has ever.

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Speaker 4: Accused me of that.

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Speaker 1: So we have a you know, everybody, many people at

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Speaker 1: home with friends and family over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people with a lot of thoughts and

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Speaker 1: opinions on what is unfolding right now in Israel and

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Speaker 1: their war on Gaza. And you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people feel so overwhelmed by the details of this conflict

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Speaker 1: because it is so longstanding. There's all these different potential

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Speaker 1: peace deals, there's all these different facets of the conflict

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Speaker 1: that they feel incapable of arguing a position coherently. So

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Speaker 1: one of the questions that we got was, can you

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Speaker 1: give a sort of cliff notes version or give just

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Speaker 1: the most essential facts so that people feel like they

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Speaker 1: can coherently and intelligently take a stand on what's going

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Speaker 1: on now.

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Speaker 5: That's a very difficult question because any tempt to give

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Speaker 5: a succinct or as you called, cliff notes version of

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Speaker 5: the history.

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Speaker 4: And the first question always is where do you begin.

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Speaker 5: Israel likes to begin in two thousand BC, and if

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Speaker 5: I were to go forward from two thousand BC to

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Speaker 5: the present, we would need not two hours, we need

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Speaker 5: about two years. So then the question is where do

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Speaker 5: you begin? For convenience and sake, and I think for

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Speaker 5: the sake of the essential context of what's happening now,

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Speaker 5: have you should or you can begin with two thousand

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Speaker 5: and six. In two thousand and six, the president of

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Speaker 5: the United States, as you will call was George Bush,

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Speaker 5: and one of his signature items on his agenda or

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Speaker 5: foreign policy agenda, is what he called democracy promotion. And

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Speaker 5: one aspect of the democracy promotion was to encourage elections,

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Speaker 5: and the Bush administration encouraged the Palestinians to hold elections. Hamas,

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Speaker 5: the Islamic movement originally didn't want to participate because it

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Speaker 5: felt that these elections were within a framework what was

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Speaker 5: called and I'm not going to go into the terminal

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Speaker 5: going to the meaning of the terminology, it was called

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Speaker 5: the Oslo framework, which Hamas rejected. However, it did a

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Speaker 5: volte face and about face it agreed to participate in

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Speaker 5: the elections, and surprise to everybody, Amas won the election.

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Speaker 4: Now there are two things to say about it.

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Speaker 5: Number One, Jimmy Carter, who was monitoring the elections in

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Speaker 5: the occupied Palestinian territories, he pronounced the elections completely honest

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Speaker 5: and fair. In fact, those were the first democratic elections

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Speaker 5: held in the modern Middle East, in the whole region,

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Speaker 5: the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East.

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Speaker 5: Jimmy Carter, as I said, pronounced them completely honest and fair.

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Speaker 4: The second thing to say.

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Speaker 5: About uh the election is the immediately as the election

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Speaker 5: was the results of the elections came in, UH, and

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Speaker 5: the result was not what the United States wanted.

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Speaker 4: I should make one point about that.

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Speaker 5: Uh. The people of Gaza did not elect or the

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Speaker 5: people in the because it was an occupied territories election,

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Speaker 5: so it's the West Bank and Gaza. They didn't elect

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Speaker 5: Goza because it was a terrorist organization.

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Speaker 4: They didn't elect Gaza.

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Speaker 5: Because it was had sit As as objective to destroy Israel.

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Speaker 5: It elected Uh, i'm us because i'm us ran on

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Speaker 5: a platform that promised reform, and Hamas itself had a

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Speaker 5: positive reputation for its role in various social institutions, in

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Speaker 5: the role in various religious institutions at the time. I

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Speaker 5: won't say what came later, but at the time it

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Speaker 5: wasn't seemed to be a reasonably honest and less corrupt

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Speaker 5: organization than what's called the Palestinian Authority. And it was

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Speaker 5: because of the promises of basic reform that Hamas won

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Speaker 5: the election. When I say reform, I mean social reform,

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Speaker 5: political reform, and most importantly of course, economic reform. So

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Speaker 5: that was why that's the result of the election. As

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Speaker 5: I said, the United States was not please. The result

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Speaker 5: for example, Hillary Clinton, who's currently making the rounds about

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Speaker 5: how she was trying so hard to promote democracy in

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Speaker 5: the occupied Palestinian territories because she cares so much about

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Speaker 5: the as Indian people. At the time, or just shortly thereafter,

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Speaker 5: Hillary Clinton stated that the United States made a mistake.

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Speaker 4: It should have rigged the election.

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Speaker 5: That's Hillary Clinton's commitment to democracy. That's democracy promotion the

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Speaker 5: Hillary Clinton in the world in any event. Immediately as

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Speaker 5: Ahamas won the elections, the United States, i should say, Israel,

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Speaker 5: then followed by the United States and the EU, imposed

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Speaker 5: these rural economic sensions on Gaza. Now, before I get

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Speaker 5: to those sanctions, the first thing I have to do

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Speaker 5: free listeners is to describe what is Gaza. Gaza is

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Speaker 5: about twenty five miles long, less than the length of

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Speaker 5: a marathon, and it's five miles wide. Gaza is among

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Speaker 5: the most densely populated places on God's Earth. Right now,

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Speaker 5: it's by a wide margin, as we speak, the most

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Speaker 5: densely populated place in God's Earth, because half of it

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Speaker 5: has been cleared out, and that population in the northern

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Speaker 5: sector has now been pushed to the southern sector. And

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Speaker 5: now Israel has plans to take the most the dense,

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Speaker 5: most densely populated place in God's Earth and push all

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Speaker 5: the people and I hope you listeners will take it

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Speaker 5: in because it's going to be unfolding as this program airs,

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Speaker 5: and push all the people in Gaza into an area

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Speaker 5: the size of Los Angeles Airport. The population of Gaza,

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Speaker 5: Israel now wants to shove into an area the size

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Speaker 5: of Los Angeles Airport. In any event, Gaza among the

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Speaker 5: most densely populated places on Earth. Once the israelis I

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Speaker 5: should say the population seventy percent of the people of

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Speaker 5: Gaza are refugees or descendants of refugees. They were seventy

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Speaker 5: percent of the population and its descendants were expelled from

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Speaker 5: Israel in nineteen forty eight during the First Arab Israeli War,

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Speaker 5: and they ended up in Gaza as their descendants, and

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Speaker 5: they lived in refugee camps for the last seventy five

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Speaker 5: years in Gaza. Half the population of Gaza's children. That's

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Speaker 5: another point that should be fixed in everyone's mind when

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Speaker 5: you hear about the indiscriminate bombing, the indiscriminate murder, the

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Speaker 5: targeted murder in Gaza. About half of those targeted are

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Speaker 5: children as of now, more seventy percent of the eleventh thousand.

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Speaker 4: That it's about eleven thousand.

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Speaker 5: Five hundred, seventy percent of those killed in Gaza, our

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Speaker 5: children and women. That's called targeting humas and the official

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Speaker 5: media accounts seventy percent our children and women. That's the

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Speaker 5: population of Gaza, overwhelmingly refugees and descendants of refugees, and

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Speaker 5: overwhelming and fifty percent children. Now, what does this blockade

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Speaker 5: of Gaza mean? That to me is the most salient

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Speaker 5: fact which whenever I mentioned that even people who are

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Speaker 5: reasonably well informed, they're absolutely dumbfounded. Once this will imposed

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Speaker 5: the blockade on Gaza, nobody could go in and nobody

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Speaker 5: could go out, except on the rarest of occasions. Is

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Speaker 5: Real controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out.

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Speaker 5: There was a period in time when Israel prohibited so

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Speaker 5: many items from being accessible to the people of Gaza

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Speaker 5: that they finally reversed the list and just provide a

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Speaker 5: list of what was permissible to pass through the gates

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Speaker 5: of Gaza. Israel band chocolate from entering Gaza. Israel band,

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Speaker 5: they beat chicks from entering Gaza. Israel band potato chips

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Speaker 5: from entering Gaza. There was a period where Israel calibrated

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Speaker 5: the diet, the caloric diet of every person in Gaza,

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Speaker 5: so as to enable a starvation plus a starvation plus

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Speaker 5: diet to be limited to the people of Gaza. Half

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Speaker 5: the population of Gaza is unemployed.

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Speaker 4: Has the highest population.

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Speaker 5: Rate of any area in the word excuse me, the

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Speaker 5: highest unemployment rate of any area in the world. Seventy

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Speaker 5: percent of the youth in Gaza are unemployed.

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Speaker 4: So when you add up all.

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Speaker 5: The discreet facts that have just enumerates for you, what

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Speaker 5: do you get. Well, the former British Prime minister, the

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Speaker 5: Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron, he described Gaza as an

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Speaker 5: open air prison. Then there's it's a senior Israeli security official.

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Speaker 5: His name comes up a lot lately as he lays

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Speaker 5: out his maniacal plans for Gaza. His name is Gueora

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Speaker 5: Gio r A island e I L A N D.

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Speaker 5: And in twenty two thousand and four, which is to say,

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Speaker 5: before the blockade was even imposed on Gaza. In two

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Speaker 5: thousand and four, he described Gaza as a huge concentration camp.

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Speaker 5: So if you look at the spectrum, the spectrum goes

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Speaker 5: from open air prison to concentration camp. That's Gaza. So

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Speaker 5: when we come to the events of October seventh, we

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Speaker 5: have to bear in mind that those young men who

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Speaker 5: burst the gates of Gaza, overwhelmingly and maybe entirely, they

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Speaker 5: were born into a concentration camp. All they had to do,

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Speaker 5: day in and day out of their existence was wake

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Speaker 5: up in the morning and pace the perimeter those twenty

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Speaker 5: five miles by five miles, pace the perimeter of the

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Speaker 5: concentration camp. That's all they had experienced in their lives.

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Speaker 5: They had no past, they had no present, and as

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Speaker 5: things looked on the eve of October seventh, they had

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Speaker 5: no future. However, that's only half the story, the reasons

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Speaker 5: of this program. Not with me, not speaking through eternity,

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Speaker 5: I'll give you the other half very quickly. The other

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Speaker 5: half is periodically Israel goes into Gaza. I can't list

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Speaker 5: all the times because frankly, I've never been able to

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Speaker 5: commit all their operations to memory much as a try.

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Speaker 4: The list is too long.

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Speaker 5: But every few years Israel conducts with the calls and

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Speaker 5: operation in Gaza. What is the operation in Gaza? Is

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Speaker 5: reel coined a very happy locution. It's called mowing the

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Speaker 5: lawn in Gaza. Now my memory is correct, Crystal, you

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Speaker 5: have three children?

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Speaker 3: Correct? Correct, yep.

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Speaker 4: So i'd like you right.

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Speaker 5: So I'd like you to bear in mind. I'm not

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Speaker 5: trying to be a motive. I'm not trying to be dramatic.

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Speaker 5: But I also am trying to paint for your listeners

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Speaker 5: a realistic picture of what's been done to those people.

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Speaker 5: Israel mows the lawn in Gazam, and that lawn has

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Speaker 5: two point three million blades of grass.

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Speaker 4: That's the population of Gazam.

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Speaker 5: One half of those blades of grass, one million, one

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Speaker 5: hundred and fifty thousand are children. And Israel coined if

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Speaker 5: I dare say, and the listeners can decide for themselves

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Speaker 5: whether I'm being emotive or whether I'm being factual. It

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Speaker 5: coined this satanic phrase, which it repeats on every occasion

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Speaker 5: with a certain amount of humor. It's funny, We're going

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Speaker 5: to mow the grass in Gaza and everybody smiles.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that a clever, cute expression.

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Speaker 5: I wonder if you would smile the mother of three

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Speaker 5: knowing that among those blades of grass that are going

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Speaker 5: to be mode are the heads and skulls of your children,

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Speaker 5: Operation and cast Led two thousand and eight two thousand

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Speaker 5: and nine December twenty sixth to January seventeenth, Israel killed

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Speaker 5: fourteen hundred people, three hundred and fifty of whom were children.

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Speaker 5: Demolished six thousand, three hundred homes mowing the grass of Gozam,

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Speaker 5: then twenty twelve Operation Pillar of Defence, then twenty fourteen

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Speaker 5: Operation Protective Edge, fifty one.

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Speaker 4: Days of mowing the lawn Operation cast Led.

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Speaker 5: In two thousand and eight to nine, Amnesty International wrote

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Speaker 5: a large report on what happened.

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Speaker 4: He called it twenty two days.

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Speaker 5: Of death and destruction mowing the lawn in Gaza. Twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 5: Peter Moore, the head of the International Committee of the

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Speaker 5: Red Cross, he visited Gaza and he saw what Israel

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Speaker 5: had inflicted. Twenty two hundred people killed, five hundred and

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Speaker 5: fifty of them children, eighteen thousand homes vaporized.

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Speaker 4: He came out and he said, now bear in.

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Speaker 5: Mind, Peter Moore's job is to visit combat zones. And

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Speaker 5: he said, never in his entire professional life had he

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Speaker 5: seen destruction of the magnitude that was inflicted on Gaza.

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Speaker 4: In twenty fourteen. So we're told now.

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Speaker 5: That the story begins on October seventh, and when a

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Speaker 5: moderator has a guest done the first point of businesses,

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Speaker 5: of course, you have to condemn what happened on October seventh,

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Speaker 5: because that's we're told where the story begins. It's as

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Speaker 5: if in a slave uprising like our own, not Turner

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Speaker 5: slave uprising, you have to begin the story because not

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Speaker 5: Turner and his band of insurgents that killed a lot

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Speaker 5: of innocent men, women and children, no question about that,

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Speaker 5: in very brutal ways. But as if you have to

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Speaker 5: begin by condemning Nott Turner.

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Speaker 4: Because of those.

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Speaker 5: Horrible deeds he had committed.

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Speaker 4: But you're not allowed to mention the fact.

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Speaker 5: That, hey, Nott Turner was born a slave. He was

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Speaker 5: born a slave, he lived a slave, and as things

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Speaker 5: looked on the date of his rebellion, he died, he

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Speaker 5: would die a slave. That was his past, present, and future.

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Speaker 5: Is that irrevant? Is that an irrelevant aspect of a story?

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Speaker 3: Of course not?

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Speaker 1: And so for me, I think that you can understand

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Speaker 1: the history and the context and how it led to

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Speaker 1: these events while also abhorring the loss of innocent civilian life.

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Speaker 1: There was a question directly in response to this analysis

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Speaker 1: from you, a combative question, let's say from our audience

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to get you to respond to. This

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Speaker 1: person writes, given that you essentially cannot hold Hamas accountable

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Speaker 1: for anything past or present, and suggest they are simply

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Speaker 1: acting under the conditions they find themselves in. How many

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Speaker 1: Israeli civilians would be too many for it to continue

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Speaker 1: to be considered a simple consequence of freedom fighting. So far,

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Speaker 1: there might be fourteen hundred they've revised to twelve hundred.

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Speaker 1: But let's say it's just a few hundred. Would fourteen thousand,

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Speaker 1: one hundred forty thousand, one point four million? At what

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Speaker 1: point would norm say that the loss of Israeli civilians

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Speaker 1: was too great to justify a resistance movement. What's your

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Speaker 1: response to that question?

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Speaker 5: I guess my response is as follows, And those are

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Speaker 5: fair questions.

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Speaker 4: I've heard them. Those are fair questions.

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Speaker 5: I'm not going to provide a threshold where it becomes intolerable.

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Speaker 5: I've said what there is no There does not seem

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Speaker 5: to be any doubt as of now that significant atrocities

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Speaker 5: occurred on October seven. I have said that in every interview,

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Speaker 5: and I think my reputation is as such that it

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Speaker 5: won't be construed as me trying to protect myself. I

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Speaker 5: don't protect myself with anything except facts, logic, and truth.

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Speaker 5: And facts, logic and truth compel me to acknowledge, where

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Speaker 5: I resistant to the fact compel me to acknowledge atrocities occurred.

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Speaker 4: So there's no dispute.

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Speaker 5: Between myself and your interrogatory and your questioner. There's no

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Speaker 5: dispute about the atrocities. The question is understanding those atrocities.

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Speaker 4: You couldn't find a single word by me.

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Speaker 5: In which I condone what happened on October seventh. I

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Speaker 5: have repeatedly said I won't condone, but I won't condemn. Now,

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Speaker 5: you might say, Crystal and your questioner, you both might

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Speaker 5: say that.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't sound consistent.

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Speaker 5: If you acknowledge atrocities have occurred, then how can you

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Speaker 5: not condemn the perpetrators of those atrocities? And I do

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Speaker 5: see a logical problem there, and that's why when I

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Speaker 5: was trying to think through this question, I went back

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Speaker 5: and looked at how the abolitionists those white folks not

439
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 5: entirely white folks.

440
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 4: Obviously they were black abolitionists.

441
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 5: But to celebrate white abolitionists, people like that Ye Stevens,

442
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 5: Wendell Phillips, William Lloyd Garrison, Charles Sumner, the heroes of

443
00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 5: that era, how they reckon morally parse than that Turner rebellion,

444
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 5: in which, as I said, sixty white people were hacked

445
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 5: to pieces, the heads of babies were chopped off.

446
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 4: That's a fact.

447
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 5: And William Lloyd Garrison, in the journal he edited, The Liberator,

448
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 5: he had an article in that Turner and he acknowledged

449
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 5: atrocities occurred. But you can look through that look read

450
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 5: every sentence of that article. He does not condemn the

451
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 5: now Turner rebellion.

452
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 4: He couldn't.

453
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 5: He couldn't in morally good conscience, because every day of his.

454
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 4: Life he bore a witness.

455
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 5: To the degradation, to the humiliation, to the laceration.

456
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 4: Of the black slaves.

457
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 5: He bore witness to the auction blocks where these slaves.

458
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: Were measured, examined, and sold off.

459
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 5: And in good conscience, he couldn't find it in him

460
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 5: to condemn what condemned not Turner. He condemned the atrocities,

461
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 5: for sure, but he would not condemn not Turner. And

462
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 5: when I read that I have to say it morally

463
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 5: resonated with me because unlike a.

464
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 4: Lot of people who are now weighing in.

465
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 5: And judging the young men who burst free the wall

466
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 5: of Gaza concentration camp, and unlike myself who spent forty

467
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 5: years reading those human rights reports on what has been

468
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 5: done to the people of Gaza, they're all quick to

469
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 5: pass judgments on those fifteen hundred maybe two thousand. We

470
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 5: billy don't know men who burst free. I, in good

471
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 5: conscience could not. The difference between myself and others is

472
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 5: one the knowledge I find it very painful to this day.

473
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: When I reread.

474
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 5: My own book, my own book in preparation for the

475
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 5: past month to speaking our what happened on October seventh,

476
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 5: my innerds ry. They rise in disgust at the whole

477
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 5: world passing judgment on this god forsaken people. So if

478
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 5: my position seems contradictory or contradictory, it's number one, because

479
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 5: I don't think it's an easy moral question to resolve.

480
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 5: And number two, unlike everyone else, I don't have in

481
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 5: my mind this image of hamas this evil criminal organization.

482
00:37:53,920 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 5: In my mind, I see the young people with no past,

483
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 5: no present, no future. Periodically, this satanic power mows the

484
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 5: lawn of Gaza, kills their mother, or kills their father,

485
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 5: or kills their sister, or kills their child. Would I,

486
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 5: I'm October seventh not be filled with rage? Would I

487
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 5: I'm October seventh not be determined to exact revenge for

488
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 5: that horror, that nightmare that had been inflicted on me

489
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: for no reason, on God's earth from.

490
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: The day I was born?

491
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 5: You know the biblical adage, Therefore the grace of God

492
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 5: go I. I don't know how I would have reacted,

493
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 5: and I won't pretend to be better than the people

494
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 5: of Gossip.

495
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 4: I won't.

496
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: So one of our questioners, again on the same topic, said,

497
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: why not simply apply and uphold Geneva Conventions in all

498
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: instances when it comes to Israel, when it comes to

499
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: Hamasa's actions, and they point in particular to the Geneva

500
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: Convention's Law of Arm Conflict Article fifty one, subsection two

501
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: or Additional Protocol one, which states the civilian population as

502
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: such as well as individual civilians shall not be the

503
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: object of attack.

504
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 4: I think there's a confusion here.

505
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 5: I just said I think three times I acknowledged atrocities occurred.

506
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 4: I applied the Geneva Convention.

507
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 5: I acknowledge atrocity occurred, but that to my mind, and

508
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 5: we can disagree. It's a separate question from the moral judgment.

509
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 5: I am going to pass over those young men in Gaza.

510
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 5: So I would also say, I'm all for applying those

511
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 5: what's called what's called IHL international humanitarian law. I'm all

512
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 5: for its application. My problem is, where do you begin

513
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 5: under international humanitarian law? The blockade of Gaza is illegal.

514
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 5: It's a war crime. It is collective punishment, a war crime.

515
00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 5: In fact, since it's lasted twenty nearly twenty years. It

516
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 5: began in January two thousand and six. Since it's lasted

517
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 5: nearly twenty years, it constitutes a crime against humanity.

518
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 4: So I have to ask you a questioner, why do we

519
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 4: begin with the war?

520
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 5: Excuse me, why do we begin with the atrocities that

521
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 5: began or unfolded on October seventh? Without remembering that the

522
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 5: impetus of that event on October seventh was the fact

523
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 5: that these young men were the victim of a crime

524
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 5: against humanity that had endured from the day of their

525
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 5: birth till October seventh. Also, eager were also eager to

526
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 5: condemn the crime on October seventh. But I was around,

527
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 5: and I was documenting that crime against humanity that began

528
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 5: in two thousand and six. That's the part that's forgotten.

529
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 5: I condemned the atrocity on October seventh. How many people

530
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 5: condemned the two decade long crime against humanity that these

531
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 5: young men endured. How many people even cared rankly? How

532
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 5: many people even knew about it?

533
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: So you mentioned a little while ago that our former

534
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: Secretary of State and former First Lady Hillary Clinton has

535
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: been making the rounds laying out her argument for why

536
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: she is opposed to a ceasefire, even after all of

537
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: the many civilians who have been killed by Israel in

538
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: this conflict. She laid out her argument in Atlantic Peace.

539
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: She said that ceasefires freeze conflicts rather than resolve them.

540
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, freezing the conflict in Gaza was an

541
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: outcome that we and the Israelis were willing to accept.

542
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: But Israel's policy since two thousand and nine of containing

543
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 1: rather than destroying Hamas has failed. A ceasefire now that

544
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: restored the pre October seventh status quo would leave the

545
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: people of Gaza living in a besieged enclave under the

546
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: domination of terrorists and leave Israeli's vulnerable to continued attacks.

547
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: It would also consign hundreds of hostages to continued captivity.

548
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: She also made an appearance on The View where she

549
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: bolstered this argument with her version of some of the

550
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: recent history.

551
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen to a little bit of what

552
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 3: she said there.

553
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 6: It's a problem predates October seventh, and I think that's

554
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 6: what President Obama was talking about, because let's remember this

555
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 6: is a very long and complicated history. My husband, with

556
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 6: the Israeli government at the time in two thousand, offered

557
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 6: a Palestinian state to the Palestinians at that time run

558
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 6: by Arafat, Aasser Arafat and the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization,

559
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 6: which by the way, took out of its charter violence

560
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 6: against Israel. So you've got to separate the Palestinians who

561
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 6: believe that there is some future of peace with Hamas,

562
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 6: which believes it has to destroy Israel.

563
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: Those are two.

564
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 6: Different organizations and they have to be viewed in that way.

565
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 6: Arafat turned that down. There would have been a Palestinian

566
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 6: state now for twenty three years if he had not

567
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 6: walked away from it. There was another attempt when I

568
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 6: was Secretary of State to try to bring the Palestinians

569
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 6: and the Israelis together. That didn't work out. Hamas came

570
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 6: in and basically destroyed all of that and killed a

571
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 6: lot of other Palestinians. So I think when President Obama

572
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 6: says that it requires us to look at the history,

573
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 6: and of course history holds all of us accountable.

574
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 3: So what is your view of.

575
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 5: Except Hillary Clinton, who destroyed Libya? History holds all of

576
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 5: us accountable except Hillary Clinton.

577
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 4: But let's leave that aside. What I would like you to.

578
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 5: Do, Crystal is simply ask me one specific question. From that,

579
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 5: she made many many statements. She talked about two thousand

580
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 5: when her husband presided over the attempted peace agreement. She

581
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 5: talked about Hamas. Hammas destroyed everything she talked about. Ceasefires

582
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 5: don't exist. You would not have time for another question

583
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 5: if I were to go into all of that. So

584
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 5: you use your you know, you use your talents. You're

585
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 5: very smart. Which aspect do you find most challenging? And

586
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 5: then I'll try to answer it going through the details.

587
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: Well, one of the claims that she made there, which

588
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: I hear repeated often, is that it was on the

589
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: Palestinian side that peace has been rejected. And she says

590
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: there that Palestinians could have had a state now for

591
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: twenty three years, had Yaser Arafat not walked away from

592
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: the deal that her husband was attempting to craft. So

593
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: do you agree with that assessment? What does she get

594
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: wrong there?

595
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 5: Well, she gets everything wrong, and I'm going to try

596
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 5: to explain why. I do know the details, and I

597
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 5: hope the listeners will forgive me for going into the details.

598
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 5: There have been four basic issues to try to resolve

599
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 5: this conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Okay, issue is

600
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 5: number one borders, Where should the borderline be drawn between

601
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 5: Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians accepted the position of

602
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 5: the international community. The borderline should be drawn where it

603
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 5: was before the June nineteen sixty seven board, that is,

604
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 5: the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and

605
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 5: Gaza would form an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. The

606
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 5: Palestinians accepted the position of the international community. All the

607
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 5: legal bodies in the world, the International Court of Justice,

608
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 5: all the political bodies, the UN General Assembly, everybody accepted

609
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 5: the border should be so it's called the pre June

610
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty seven border, or the whole of the West Bank,

611
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 5: including East Jerusalem and Gaza, would be the Palestinian state

612
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 5: side by side with Israel.

613
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 4: Israel rejected that position.

614
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 5: Israel wanted a part of the West Bank in its

615
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 5: last offer.

616
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 4: In its the last.

617
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 5: Offer, it wanted approximately eight percent of the West Bank,

618
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 5: So it rejected the international community's position.

619
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 4: Number two.

620
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 5: Under international law, East Jerusalem belonged to the Palestinian state

621
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 5: because under international law it's inadmissible to.

622
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: Acquire territory by war.

623
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 5: Israel acquired the East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza

624
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 5: in the course of the nineteen sixty seven more, it

625
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 5: had no legal title to East Jerusalem, the West Bank

626
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 5: and Gaza. Israel rejected that position of the international community.

627
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 5: It said it wanted parts of East Jerusalem. Number three,

628
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 5: there's the question of these settlements that Israel has built

629
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 5: in the occupied Palestinian territories, approximately now seven hundred thousand settlers,

630
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 5: illegal settlers under international law in the West Bank. All

631
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 5: of those settlers are illegally in the West Bank right

632
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 5: now as we speak, engaging in a low level at

633
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 5: this point ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

634
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 4: Israel wanted to keep.

635
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 5: Under its sovereignty approximately eighty percent of those settlers.

636
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 4: And finally, there's the.

637
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 5: Question of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Their descendants

638
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 5: since nineteen forty eight, Israel said that it would not

639
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 5: allow any of those refugees to return under what's called

640
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 5: the right of return, the international law which says refugees

641
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 5: have the right to return to their homes after the

642
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 5: cessation of hostilities.

643
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 4: Israel said no.

644
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 5: Now on all of those questions, borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees,

645
00:50:54,760 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 5: on all of those questions, the Palestinians were will to

646
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 5: make concessions.

647
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 4: And in.

648
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 5: Two thousand, the year two thousand, President Clinton put forth

649
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 5: what were called the parameters December two thousand, Parameters for

650
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 5: resolving the conflict. All of those parameters required concessions from

651
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 5: the Palestinians on the basis of international law. None of

652
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 5: Clinton's parameters required concessions from Israel on the basis of

653
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 5: international law. Now, I want the listeners to hear the

654
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 5: bottom line. In January two thousand and one, both is

655
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 5: the rally side and the Palace in the inside accepted

656
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 5: what we're called the Clinton parameters with reservations. Both sides said,

657
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 5: we accept with reservations. It is factually untrue President Clinton,

658
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 5: who's an extremely smart guy, extremely smart guy with a

659
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 5: voracious intellectual appetite, he's unfortunately also an exceptional liar. And

660
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 5: in his memoir which I read, he simply lied about

661
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 5: what happened to his parameters that he put forth in

662
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 5: December two thousand and Hillary Clinton, who is apparently quite smart,

663
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 5: also as smart as her husband, I'm not sure, but

664
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 5: no question, a very smart woman. She is also an inveterate,

665
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 5: to the point of pathological liar. That's not, you know,

666
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 5: I'm not talking. I'm not trying to be I'm not

667
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 5: trying to be at hominem. I think there's quite a

668
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 5: lot of evidence going back to why she lost the election,

669
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 5: that she's a pathological liar. She literally can't see the

670
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 5: lies that she's uttering. So those are just factual questions

671
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 5: where I can say with a great deal of confidence,

672
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 5: because I've read the entire diplomatic record and I'm willing

673
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 5: to debate anybody on it, that what she's saying is false.

674
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 4: It's doubly false.

675
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 5: It's false because the Palestinians accepted the terms for resolving

676
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 5: the conflict which have been developed and ratified by the

677
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 5: whole international community. Just to give you one example, every year,

678
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 5: every single year, the United Nations General Assembly passes a

679
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 5: resolution called Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, and every

680
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 5: year it lays out the terms which I just described.

681
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 5: The terms of the settlement are anchored, embedded in international law.

682
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 5: Every year, the vote is the whole world, which is

683
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 5: to say, approximately one hundred and ninety countries on one

684
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 5: site embracing those terms, including the Palestinian representative organizations, and

685
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 5: on the other side it's usually the United States, Israel,

686
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 5: and several South Sea islands the Marshall Islands allow to

687
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 5: Volu Tonga.

688
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 4: On the other side.

689
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 5: Now, if any of your listeners have doubts, which surely

690
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 5: they have their right to, all they have to do

691
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 5: is google peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, United Nations

692
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 5: General Assembly and that resolution will come right up on

693
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 5: the screen.

694
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 4: It's a little more.

695
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 5: Complicated to get to the voting record, but with enough

696
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 5: conscientiousness and ingenuity which.

697
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 4: I lack on the web, I don't know anything about

698
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 4: the hues.

699
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 5: They can easily find the whole world on one side,

700
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 5: the US, Israel, and some South Sea island eight tolls.

701
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 4: On the other side. That's the real record.

702
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 5: And if Hillary Clinton wants to debate me on it

703
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 5: or her husband, I'm perfectly happy.

704
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: To do so well, and I would be perfectly happy

705
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: to moderate that debate. I think that would be great

706
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: for the country to see.

707
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 5: And I would say, you know, with Bill Clinton, it

708
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 5: will be a challenge, but he's a very smart guy,

709
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 5: no question about it.

710
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 4: But I'm willing to take that challenge.

711
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 1: So with you acknowledging that hindsight is twenty twenty and

712
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: with the advantage of sitting where we are in twenty

713
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: twenty three and looking over this entire historical record, are

714
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: there any moments where you feel like Palestinians were failed

715
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: by their leadership, where if a different decision or a

716
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: different action had been taken, we might be in a

717
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: better place today.

718
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 5: I would say there are two separate questions. One is

719
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 5: the goal, and in my opinion, the goal was completely

720
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 5: legitimate because it was trying to settle the conflict in

721
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 5: the basis of international law. And I don't think there

722
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 5: is really an alternative framework for trying to settle the conflict.

723
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: And then there's a second, a separate.

724
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 5: Question, whether the Palestine leadership made maximum use of its

725
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 5: opportunities to force Israel to the negotiating table. And there,

726
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 5: I would say, the record of the Palestine Liberation Organization,

727
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 5: the PLO, and then subsequently the Palestine Authority, the record

728
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 5: is not great. However, I want to be very careful

729
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 5: about this. I do not believe they made the maximum

730
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 5: use of available opportunities. However, it should never be forgotten

731
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 5: that both the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PLO and TAMAS,

732
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 5: they both attempted nonviolent civil resistance, and in both cases

733
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 5: that nonviolent civil resistance was brutly suppressed by the Israeli government.

734
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 4: Now, I don't even know.

735
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 5: How far your memory stretches back, but in nineteen eighty eight,

736
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 5: the Palestinians engaged both in both in Gaza and in

737
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 5: the West Bank. They engaged in nonviolent civil resistance called

738
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 5: it came to be called the First Intafada, the first revolt,

739
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 5: non violent civil revolt against Israel, the Israeli occupation. The

740
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 5: Israelis under then Defense Minister Defense Minister Yitzak Rabin imposed

741
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 5: the policy which was called in public the force, might

742
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 5: and beatings policy, in which they brutalized the Palestinian population

743
00:59:54,520 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 5: engaged in nonviolent civil resistance, engaged in massive, massive torture

744
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 5: of Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. They according

745
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 5: to Human Rights Watch, they tortured tens of thousands of

746
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 5: Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. In fact, the

747
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 5: current editor of Atlantic Magazine, Jeffrey Goldberg, he was a

748
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 5: guard in one of those detention facilities, and in his book,

749
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 5: his memoir called Prisoners, he describes how he personally, this

750
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 5: is the editor of Atlantic Magazine, which currently features the

751
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 5: article by Hillary Clinton.

752
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 4: He describes how he personally.

753
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 5: Escorted Palestinians in the detention center to.

754
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: The torture chamber.

755
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 5: He was personally an accessory to torture during the First

756
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 5: Into Fadom.

757
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 4: And then let's.

758
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 5: Fast forward to what Hillary Clinton calls in that article.

759
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 5: She calls hamas an extreme terrorist organization. So this extreme

760
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 5: terrorist organization in March twenty eighteen attempted nonviolent civil resistance,

761
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 5: the young people and the older people.

762
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 4: The men and the women.

763
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 5: In Gaza marched to the perimeter of the concentration camp.

764
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 4: What did Israel do?

765
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 5: I hope people's memories aren't so short. It assembled along

766
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 5: the perimeter of the concentration camp. It's snipers. And who

767
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 5: did the snipers of that beautiful state?

768
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 4: Who did it target?

769
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 5: Well, we have a very excellent human rights report which

770
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 5: describes who they targeted.

771
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 4: Here for your listeners.

772
01:02:53,240 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 5: Is a list of the types of targets. Beautiful Israel,

773
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 5: the only democracy in the Middle East. Who did it

774
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 5: target It targeted children, It targeted medics, It targeted journalists,

775
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 5: and it targeted people with physical disabilities. It targeted young

776
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 5: men in wheelchairs, It targeted young men on crutches.

777
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 4: So you can fault both groups, the PLO.

778
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 5: And the Hamas leadership for not maximizing the opportunities to

779
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 5: force that state, backed by the United States, to settle

780
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 5: the conflict. But let it never be said that won.

781
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 5: Their goal was beyond reason. No, their goal or their

782
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 5: goal was extreme. Their goal was what the international community

783
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 5: in all of its manifestations called for, namely, a settlement

784
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,479
Speaker 5: based on the principles of international law.

785
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 4: And number two.

786
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 5: Let it never be said that they didn't try nonviolence.

787
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 5: They tried it, and they tried it, and they were brutally,

788
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 5: mercilessly mowed down by the Israeli state.

789
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 4: That's the fact.

790
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could give the strongest possible case

791
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: for the Israeli view of the conflict.

792
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 3: You're not only a.

793
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: Scholar of the Israel Palestine conflict, you're also a scholar

794
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: of the Holocaust. So coming out of that history of

795
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: deep trauma that your own family was afflicted by, I

796
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: wonder if you could lay out how you think they're

797
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: viewing this conflict and why it ends up being so

798
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,439
Speaker 1: different from the way that you and I are looking

799
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: at it.

800
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 5: I'm listening closely to your questions, and those are reasonable

801
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 5: and important questions. I would have to say two things.

802
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 5: Number One, if we were talking about the past, I

803
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 5: could see because I strongly believe in the principle of

804
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 5: trying to establish a devil's advocate argument and then trying

805
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:19,439
Speaker 5: to argue against the devil's advocate. However, I don't think

806
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 5: that's possible now because right now, at this moment, we

807
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 5: are talking about a genocide unfolding in Gozam, and it

808
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 5: would be a sin against man and a sin against

809
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 5: God to make a Devil's advocate case for genocide unless

810
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 5: you're willing to accept Nazi principles as a point of departure,

811
01:06:53,000 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 5: namely legitimizing extermination. Since I don't believe any of your

812
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 5: listeners would accept that dead rock principle as one dead

813
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:14,920
Speaker 5: rock principle, that extermination is okay, then it makes no

814
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 5: sense to lay out, so to speak, a Devil's advocate

815
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 5: position because there will be no agreement on the baseline.

816
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: Israel's trying to.

817
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 5: Commit a genocide in Gaza right now about that, it's

818
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 5: very clear. It doesn't even pretend to hide it. It's

819
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 5: saying we're not going to let any food, water, electricity,

820
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 5: or a fuel. Well that's genocide to a civilian population.

821
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 5: Then well that's genocide. That's not complicated. So at the moment,

822
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 5: I couldn't lay out a position because nobody would accept

823
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 5: the rock argument that China side is okay, It's okay

824
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 5: to exterminate the people in the case of the past.

825
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 5: Why what's the best argument against Israel or for Israel?

826
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 4: What's the best argument for Israel?

827
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 5: The best argument for Israel is it has the right

828
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 5: to break the law, and that's what Israel has said

829
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 5: all along. Israel has said all along, because of what

830
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 5: Jews endured experience during the Nazi Holocausts, they should not

831
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 5: be held to the same moral standard as other states,

832
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 5: that they should get a pass because of what happened

833
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 5: to them. So if Israel did as it did, If

834
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 5: Israel did as it did, do it legalized torture. There

835
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 5: was a period in Israel's history where they legalized torture. Well,

836
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 5: they would say, what about the Holocaust. There was a

837
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 5: period where Israel legalized the demolition of homes as a

838
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 5: form of punishment.

839
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 4: When they were asked, well, what about the Holocaust.

840
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 5: So they've used the Holocaust not just as a moral alibii,

841
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 5: but as a right that has been that they have

842
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 5: been endowed with because of what happened during World War Two.

843
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 5: And so then it's up to your listeners whether you

844
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 5: accept that that Israel has the right to break the

845
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 5: law because of what it experienced during World War Two.

846
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 5: Israel was the only country in the world to have

847
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 5: legalized torture. Israel was the only country in the world

848
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 5: to legalize hostage taking the High Court Barak he called

849
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 5: it bargaining chips. Israel was the only country in the

850
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 5: world to legalize house demolitions as a form of punishment.

851
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 4: It's very unique.

852
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 5: And the argument has always been by its apologies, well,

853
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 5: what about the Holocaust?

854
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 4: And then that's a judgment that your listeners have to make.

855
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 5: I say, by the standard of international law in all

856
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 5: of its dimensions, be it the human rights dimension, be

857
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 5: it the terms for settling the conflict. Israel is and

858
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 5: has been in egregious violation of the law. And you

859
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 5: can see that in the International Court of Justice decision

860
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 5: in July two floor, which I'm not going to go

861
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 5: through right now because we're going into the weeds and

862
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 5: I will lose listeners. So I think the record is unambiguous,

863
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 5: unequivocal that Israel is a systematic and egregious violator of

864
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 5: international law in all its dimensions. And then the question

865
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 5: comes to what you just said, Okay, but then what's

866
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,680
Speaker 5: its best case, And that's a fair question, and I.

867
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:37,719
Speaker 4: Think it's best cases.

868
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 5: The case is who has made all along, namely that

869
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 5: given what happen in light of what happened to Jews

870
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 5: during World War two, they have a right to do that.

871
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 5: And there it's just for you, you know, it's your

872
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 5: listeners to the side. Some of them are going to say, well, yeah,

873
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 5: you know what, I think they do have that right

874
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 5: to break the law, and others will say, well, the

875
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 5: law is the law, and nobody gets a free pass.

876
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,599
Speaker 5: Now as we're once in the name of the Nazi

877
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 5: Holocaust to commit a holocaust, well that's what they're doing.

878
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 5: I mean, that's not that's not exaggeration. They are right

879
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 5: now turning Gaza. During the Filipino War in the turn

880
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 5: of twentieth century, nineteen hundred, during the field, there was

881
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 5: a province in revolt called Luzan, the United States is

882
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 5: time to occupied and one of the generals during the

883
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 5: Filipino War he said, we're going to turn the dnsest

884
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 5: resistance was in Luzon Province lu Zealm and one of

885
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,719
Speaker 5: the American generals said, we're going to turn the Luzon

886
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:50,240
Speaker 5: province into a howling wilderness. That phrase always stuck with me.

887
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 5: And that's what Israel is doing now to Gaza.

888
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 4: I woke up.

889
01:12:55,400 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 5: This morning and I was reading an article and it

890
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 5: said bait Hanoun, which was a place on you had

891
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 5: very five thousand people in northern Gaza, and it's not

892
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:11,919
Speaker 5: there anymore.

893
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 4: There's nothing.

894
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 5: There was a very vivided article by Patrick Kingsley of

895
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 5: The Times, who I loathe, but occasionally a word of

896
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 5: truth passes through his lips, and he said he was

897
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 5: taken on a tour of northern Gaza by the Israeli Army,

898
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 5: a control tour. And he said, at one point he

899
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 5: was in this completely level end, and he said, he

900
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 5: turned to the general, the commanding officer, he said, where

901
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 5: are we? And the fellow named the name of the place,

902
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 5: and he describes the article. He was bewildered because he

903
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 5: had spent a lot of time in that place as

904
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 5: a journalist for the Times. He had no idea where

905
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 5: he was. There's nothing there, he said. The only constant

906
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 5: is the is the Mediterranean. To see, there's nothing there.

907
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 5: You couldnt find your home in Gaza. That's his real's goal,

908
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 5: that people will have nothing to return to, and so

909
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 5: they'll leave, leave where we don't know yet. Right now

910
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 5: they're trying to put all the people, the two point

911
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 5: three million people of Gaza into an area the size

912
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 5: of Los Angeles Airport, to force Egypt to open the

913
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:51,960
Speaker 5: gates of Rafa and take them. So and why, well,

914
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 5: the Holocaust did you see the Times coverage one day

915
01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 5: it would say one of the people taken hostage was

916
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 5: a survivor of the Holocaust. Oh yeah, that's very possible.

917
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,919
Speaker 5: My parents survived the Holocaust. I buried them thirty years ago,

918
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:14,640
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety five. But they managed to find a survivor

919
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 5: of the Holocaust. Always dragging it in, dragging it in.

920
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 5: What became the mantra of the latest event? What's the mantra?

921
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 5: The worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust? Can you

922
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 5: tell me what fourteen hundred people being killed has to

923
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 5: do with the Holocaust? Awshitz killed? No, I'm serious, and

924
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 5: alshits ten thousand Jews were gassed to death a week,

925
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 5: ten thousand a week. What does that have to do

926
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 5: with fourteen hundred, Yes, fourteen hundred, it's a horrible number.

927
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:52,439
Speaker 5: I'm not going to deny it, but can you tell

928
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,520
Speaker 5: me what that has to do with the Nazi Holocaust?

929
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 4: But always drag it in, drag it in.

930
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 5: And the former Foreign Minister of Israel he famously said,

931
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 5: you know, the Hebrew word for holocaust does show it shoah?

932
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 5: And he famously said, there's no business like show a business.

933
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 5: And that's what you see.

934
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 3: Now let me ask you.

935
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:21,520
Speaker 5: You're always dragging in to extenuate, excuse, exonerate.

936
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question related to that, because

937
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:26,160
Speaker 1: this is something I hear a lot and something that

938
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 1: are a number. We had a number of questions about this.

939
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 1: What's a good response when someone proposes that, while it

940
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: is undeniably true that Israel quote does bad things, it

941
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: only gets a disproportionate amount of attention because of anti Semitism.

942
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 1: For example, how to respond to someone who says, there

943
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 1: are Muslims that are severely persecuted, ethnically cleansed all over

944
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: the world, but only Israel incites this kind of international ire,

945
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:50,719
Speaker 1: and it's because people hate Jews.

946
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 3: What is your reaction to that?

947
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 5: Well, there are many arguments you could have made in

948
01:16:56,439 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 5: the past, but now is Isel is in a very

949
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 5: unique situation. Number One, by the third week. By the

950
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 5: third week of the current operation, Israel had killed by

951
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 5: the third week more children then children killed in every

952
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:29,799
Speaker 5: war zone in the world combined for the year's twenty

953
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 5: twenty or the year of twenty twenty one, or the

954
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 5: year twenty twenty two.

955
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 4: I remember I was in.

956
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:42,839
Speaker 5: One debate with a fellow named Eli Lake. I mentioned

957
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 5: that statistic. At that point the number of Palestinian children

958
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:55,719
Speaker 5: killed was thirty five hundred, and very skeptically, Eli Lake

959
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:00,560
Speaker 5: said more than in Ukraine.

960
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:02,759
Speaker 4: And then I went home and checked.

961
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 5: Do you know how many children have been killed in

962
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 5: Ukraine in twenty months?

963
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,480
Speaker 4: Five hundred.

964
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 5: At that moment when I was in the debate, you

965
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,919
Speaker 5: know how many children were killed in Gaza?

966
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 4: Thirty five hundred number two.

967
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 5: Now we can disagree about this, and my memory may

968
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 5: not be perfect, as I say, I don't quarrel with facts,

969
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 5: but I cannot remember.

970
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 4: A single conflict in my lifetime.

971
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 5: Where a state was openly, blatantly and flagrantly targeting hospitals.

972
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 5: That's a new threshold of barbarism. The most Sankro sank

973
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 5: institution in any society do every manner and form of

974
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 5: protection inviolable under international custom, has become a target of

975
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 5: legitimate attack by this state. In terms of density of bombing,

976
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 5: it's the most densely bombed area Gaza of any war

977
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:47,679
Speaker 5: zone in the twenty first century. So if it's now

978
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 5: getting disproportionate attention by some people's reckonings, it might possibly

979
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 5: be because it's carried gone this proportionate crimes in real

980
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 5: time before our eyes.

981
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 1: To your point about the targeting of hospitals, we got

982
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: in a question that asked, what do you think was

983
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: Israel's real motivation to storm Alshifa Hospital? Did they really

984
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: expect to find a complete Hamas command center? If not,

985
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: what could be their actual objective? And just as a

986
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: side note, we're recording this Monday, November twentieth. Just this morning,

987
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:32,799
Speaker 1: there's been an additional IDF release of a tunnel system

988
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: that they claimed that they located some fifty meters long,

989
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 1: and some video that they claim shows hostages being let

990
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 1: into the hospital for treatment.

991
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 5: Okay, let me get to the goal and then let

992
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 5: me get to the specifics the goal is. In my

993
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 5: view as a speculative, I can't answer the minds of

994
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 5: the Israeli leadership. I would say number one, Israel's always

995
01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 5: testing the threshold. How much will the international community tolerate?

996
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 5: If you can get away with targeting hospitals, that sacrosanct

997
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 5: edifice of civil society, then you can get away with genocide.

998
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 4: If you can target injured people, dying.

999
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 5: People in a hospital, then why can't you kill everybody?

1000
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:34,640
Speaker 4: So right now, in part it's a probing operation.

1001
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 5: How far will the international community let us go?

1002
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 4: Number two?

1003
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 5: Al Shifa Hospital is the largest hospital in Gaza. It

1004
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 5: was at the time of the Israeli attack, Al Shifa

1005
01:21:55,400 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 5: was holding sixty thousand people, not a small number. And

1006
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 5: if you target Al Shifa, you're targeting what remains of

1007
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 5: Gaza's civilization. It was the as it were, epitome. It

1008
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 5: summarized Gaza civilization. I know some people in the audience

1009
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 5: are laughing, Aha, Gaza civilization.

1010
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 4: Very funny. Yeah, it epitomized Gaza civilization, and therefore, by

1011
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 4: destroying it, you are dealing a lethal blow, a death

1012
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 4: blow to all that Gaza stood for.

1013
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 7: Now about that Al Shifa Hospital, Let's remember, as The

1014
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:00,719
Speaker 7: New York Times wrote the other day, that.

1015
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:10,360
Speaker 5: Israel claimed there was this strolling command and control center

1016
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 5: in which were ensconced the leadership of Hamas and the hostages.

1017
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 4: And the Times.

1018
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:33,680
Speaker 5: Wrote that the eleven thousand people killed at that point,

1019
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 5: which was last week, those eleven thousand people killed were

1020
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 5: quote in part because of the claim that Al Shifa

1021
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 5: Hospital housed beneath the ground the command and control center.

1022
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 5: And then Israel produced all these symtastic images and videos

1023
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 5: of this hamas command and control center, this intricate, ramified

1024
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 5: control center with multiple stories that was beneath the hospital,

1025
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 5: and of course that was completely lunatic. And from early

1026
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 5: on I was engaged in this thing called tweeting.

1027
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 4: I don't know what twitter or tweeting.

1028
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 5: Art, but I have a very nice young crew of

1029
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,720
Speaker 5: techies who have connected me.

1030
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 4: To social media.

1031
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,559
Speaker 5: I've never been on Facebook, I've never been on any

1032
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:54,200
Speaker 5: of that stuff.

1033
01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 4: So I began to tweet.

1034
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,759
Speaker 5: I feel humiliate even saying that I began to tweet

1035
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 5: from early on.

1036
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 4: This is completely ridiculous. This was always claiming.

1037
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 5: Howmos Is got Commas leadership in its basement, and I

1038
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,320
Speaker 5: went back to two thousand and eight, went to the

1039
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 5: whole thing. So what did we find. Well, here's what

1040
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 5: we find so far. They were in the hospitals for

1041
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 5: three days. Now, you really have to listen to this

1042
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 5: because the cridulity, I would say, the pathological credulity of

1043
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 5: the media has to make you laugh.

1044
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:37,600
Speaker 4: So they bring in reporters and the reporters see.

1045
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:41,759
Speaker 5: A hole in the ground, a hole in the ground,

1046
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 5: and they're told this probably leads to tunnels, but we

1047
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:55,200
Speaker 5: can't go in the hole because it's booby trapped. Really,

1048
01:25:56,240 --> 01:26:00,559
Speaker 5: you can't go in the hole because it's booby trapped. Well,

1049
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 5: every time Israel goes into Gaza, it claims that homes

1050
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,400
Speaker 5: are booby trapped. That's why it says it blows them up.

1051
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 5: And I'm thinking to myself, well, let me see here.

1052
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 5: Israel invented this miracle they call iron dome, right, that's

1053
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:25,720
Speaker 5: the anti ballistic missile system, anti missile system. So these geniuses,

1054
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 5: the Israelis, they invented iron dome, the miracle. They called

1055
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:37,240
Speaker 5: it an iron dome, which deflects incoming missiles in the

1056
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 5: sky and shatters them to smitherings.

1057
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 8: But Israel hasn't yet figured out how to deactivate a

1058
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:53,640
Speaker 8: booby trap, hasn't figured out.

1059
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 5: Every time Israel mows the lawn and gaza, it says,

1060
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 5: we have to blow up all the houses because they're

1061
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 5: all booby trap.

1062
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 4: They've been doing that since two thousand and.

1063
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 5: Eight, probably much earlier, but I don't know the record,

1064
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:12,560
Speaker 5: and they haven't yet they figured out how to smash

1065
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,560
Speaker 5: the smitherings incoming ballistic missiles.

1066
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 4: But they say to.

1067
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 5: The reporters, you can't go down because it might be

1068
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 5: booby trapped, and we don't know how to deactivate a

1069
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 5: booby trap. I would suggest that if you go into

1070
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 5: any town of more than one thousand people in the

1071
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 5: United States, the police know how to deactivate the booby trap,

1072
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:42,360
Speaker 5: but Israel hasn't figured it out.

1073
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:44,040
Speaker 4: Now.

1074
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:50,719
Speaker 5: Israel says it discovered the tunnel fifty five meters long.

1075
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 5: Fifty five meters is about half a city block. Okay, okay,

1076
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 5: half a city block. That doesn't sound to me like

1077
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 5: AMAS Command and Control Center, which has multiple stories. And

1078
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:10,800
Speaker 5: we're told if you look at the images and when

1079
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:13,719
Speaker 5: you put this program up, you can flash just say,

1080
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 5: you just google Israel images Hamas Command and Control Center.

1081
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:21,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, we played it.

1082
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 1: Their animation of what they projected it look like right

1083
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 1: for me.

1084
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 5: I'm obviously ten times your age. So there was a

1085
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 5: program when I was growing up called A Man from

1086
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 5: Uncle Uncle stood for the United Network Command for Law Enforcement.

1087
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 5: It started a star David McCallum and Robert Vaughan, and

1088
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 5: it was a spectacular command and control center. And the

1089
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:50,439
Speaker 5: way you entered it, there was a tailor shop. It

1090
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:53,720
Speaker 5: was called Del Floria's Taylor Shop. And then you went

1091
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:57,599
Speaker 5: into the dressing room. You closed the curtain and then

1092
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:03,639
Speaker 5: you entered Del Floria's. You entered through the dressing room,

1093
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 5: a trap door. You entered the Man from Uncle headquarters.

1094
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 5: And this is like the Man from Uncle. So so

1095
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:18,320
Speaker 5: here's the news story. Here's the news story. They showed

1096
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:22,600
Speaker 5: us fifty five meters and then they said there was

1097
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 5: a door there, and we can't go through the door.

1098
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 5: Can't go through the door because behind the door that's

1099
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 5: where the command and control center is. But we can't

1100
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,640
Speaker 5: get past the door. It's a very thick door, you know,

1101
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:42,679
Speaker 5: very thick door. It began to sound like if you remember,

1102
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:46,719
Speaker 5: one of those pornographic films from the seventies or eighties

1103
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 5: was called Behind the Green Door.

1104
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 1: Not familiar with that one.

1105
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 4: It was Fame.

1106
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 5: It's like I Am Curious Yellow. These were landmarks. You know,

1107
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 5: when I was growing up, there was a lot of pornography.

1108
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:04,840
Speaker 5: There was I Am Curious Yellow, deep throat behind the

1109
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 5: Green Door.

1110
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 4: And any offense. So this was like behind the Hamas door.

1111
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 5: And you know, I used to live in an area,

1112
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:19,479
Speaker 5: a very tough area called Washington Heights, and there was

1113
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 5: a lot of drug.

1114
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:22,719
Speaker 4: Activity in my area.

1115
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:25,920
Speaker 5: Actually, the drug dealers finally drove me out liberally and

1116
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:28,720
Speaker 5: I was running down the street. Not pleasant, not a

1117
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 5: happy memory. I wasn't a happy camper that day, and

1118
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:42,120
Speaker 5: any event, the steel doors were very common. Any NYPD

1119
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:47,400
Speaker 5: team knows how to knock down the steel door, behind

1120
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 5: which are the drug the armed drug dealers, but the

1121
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 5: greatest army in human history, the idea.

1122
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 4: It executed a war that defeated all the.

1123
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 5: Arab armies in nineteen sixty seven and six days. All

1124
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 5: the Arab armies it defeated in six days. But they

1125
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:14,720
Speaker 5: haven't figured out how to knock down the door. And

1126
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 5: behind that door is the command and control center. You know,

1127
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 5: the whole thing is so laughable, it's so idiotic, But

1128
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:24,080
Speaker 5: that's the Israelis.

1129
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:26,680
Speaker 4: They count on it. You know why they count on it?

1130
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:28,880
Speaker 4: Why is that they count on it because they know

1131
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 4: they can get away with it In the United States.

1132
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 5: They know they could say anything and snow get away

1133
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:36,240
Speaker 5: with it.

1134
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 1: They only need they only basically need Joe Biden to

1135
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:41,880
Speaker 1: be buying it at this point, and apparently it seems

1136
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: like he is thus far.

1137
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, though, I.

1138
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:47,800
Speaker 5: Would say that's a very technical term where you mean

1139
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 5: by him buying it, that assumes he's mentally able to

1140
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 5: process it, and at this point I don't think that's

1141
01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 5: that should be assumed fair.

1142
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 1: I want to ask you those related question of human

1143
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 1: shields quote unquote human shields, and I've heard you speak

1144
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 1: about this before, and your analysis and your review of

1145
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, international human rights organizations and evidence on the record,

1146
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:15,240
Speaker 1: you say you don't find any evidence that Hamas has

1147
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:17,679
Speaker 1: used human shields. And the reason I have a question

1148
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,240
Speaker 1: about this is because, first of all, some of their statements,

1149
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:22,519
Speaker 1: which I'll get to in a minute, but because, as

1150
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 1: you said, Gaza is so densely packed, it almost seems

1151
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:30,719
Speaker 1: to me like it would be impossible not to have

1152
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:36,719
Speaker 1: military assets close to civilian populations, even if that wasn't,

1153
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:38,640
Speaker 1: you know, if human shield wasn't the goal. So I

1154
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: wonder just speak to that and give us maybe what

1155
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: your definition of a quote unquote human shield is.

1156
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:49,599
Speaker 5: Well, look, excellent question, and these are the questions which

1157
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 5: I spent forty years of my life trying to come

1158
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 5: to grips with understand and so I'm very happy that

1159
01:32:57,920 --> 01:33:03,520
Speaker 5: you're asking those questions because they will lend clarity to

1160
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:12,439
Speaker 5: the truth. Under international law, there are two relatively distinct concepts.

1161
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 4: One is human shielding.

1162
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 5: Now, human shielding has not, been, to my knowledge, and

1163
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 5: I think I'm running this point.

1164
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:21,880
Speaker 4: Has not been legally defined.

1165
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 5: It's what you might call a term of art, and

1166
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 5: human shielding basically means, as it's understood by most human

1167
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:32,520
Speaker 5: rights or organizations those I say, it's not been legally codified.

1168
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:40,160
Speaker 5: It basically means the conscripting, the forcible conscripting of civilians

1169
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 5: to either shield a combatant or to shield a military site.

1170
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 4: That would be human shielding.

1171
01:33:54,240 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 5: The evidence on Palestinian militants hamas fighters engaging in human

1172
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 5: shielding is near.

1173
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 4: Zero. I have quoted at length, but I won't do so. Now.

1174
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:17,840
Speaker 5: The findings of Amnesty International during the two thousand and

1175
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 5: eight nine Operation Protected Edge, and they found in a

1176
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:28,839
Speaker 5: report I referred to it earlier, the twenty two Days

1177
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,599
Speaker 5: of Death and Destruction, they found no.

1178
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,120
Speaker 4: Evidence of human shielding.

1179
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:41,720
Speaker 5: Now there's a separate concept, as I said, relatively distinct.

1180
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 4: The second concept is.

1181
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:54,760
Speaker 5: Called quote, taking all feasible precautions to protect civilians if

1182
01:34:54,800 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 5: you're fighting in a civilian area. So sometimes, as you

1183
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 5: point out, if you're dealing with or you're you are

1184
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 5: amidst the most among the most densely populated areas in

1185
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 5: the world, You inevitably are at some point going to

1186
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 5: find yourself resisting from population centers. And then the rule

1187
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:36,480
Speaker 5: of international law is you have to take all feasible precautions.

1188
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 4: Now, of course, because you're uh, you have a.

1189
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 5: Facility and fluency in the English language.

1190
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:47,480
Speaker 4: The keyword is feasible.

1191
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 5: What at any particular moment might be feasible to protect

1192
01:35:56,080 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 5: civilians if you're engaged in fighting in a civil area.

1193
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:04,960
Speaker 4: The only thing I could say is human.

1194
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:12,480
Speaker 5: Rights organizations have accused Hamas in situations, not every situation,

1195
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:16,040
Speaker 5: but in situations of not having.

1196
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:19,800
Speaker 4: Taken all feasible precautions.

1197
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:26,080
Speaker 5: Now that's only half the story, because the other half

1198
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:33,600
Speaker 5: of the story is human rights organizations have voluminously documented

1199
01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:42,759
Speaker 5: Israel's use of human shields, Palestinian human shields. So let's

1200
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,439
Speaker 5: take an example that goes back to something we just

1201
01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:52,720
Speaker 5: talked about. Occasionally, Israel enters a house which it fears

1202
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 5: might be booby trapped.

1203
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:57,360
Speaker 4: What does it do.

1204
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:08,840
Speaker 9: It uses Palestinians as human shields to precede them as

1205
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 9: they enter the house and say, walk down a staircase.

1206
01:37:15,280 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 4: So the fact is, yes, there are.

1207
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 5: Voluminously documented instances of Palestinian of human shielding. I remember

1208
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:35,920
Speaker 5: the instances during Operation Defensive Shield in two thousand and

1209
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:42,599
Speaker 5: two when they invaded Janine in the West Bank and

1210
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 5: they took Palestinian They would enter a home.

1211
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:53,120
Speaker 4: And then use the home.

1212
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 5: As a base, fire from windows, and they would put

1213
01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:03,520
Speaker 5: Palestinians in the windows and fire.

1214
01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:05,080
Speaker 4: From behind them.

1215
01:38:06,520 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 5: So, yes, there has been human shielding in the occupied

1216
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:21,000
Speaker 5: Palestinian territories, human shielding committed by Israel. But the only

1217
01:38:21,160 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 5: question we're about to entertain is how extensive is Hamas

1218
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:33,519
Speaker 5: is use of human shielding. That's the only relevant question

1219
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 5: Israel human shielding.

1220
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:36,600
Speaker 4: It's not even the.

1221
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:41,960
Speaker 5: Question because it's not acknowledged that exists. It's like before

1222
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:49,240
Speaker 5: October seventh, nothing happened in Gaza. The whole history, the

1223
01:38:49,280 --> 01:38:55,639
Speaker 5: whole documentary record is whited out. As your generation likes

1224
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:59,440
Speaker 5: to call it. It's eras and erasure.

1225
01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 1: Related to the human shield question, the Hamas official Gazi

1226
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 1: Hamad recently said in an interview this was a translation.

1227
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:13,759
Speaker 1: We must teach Israel lesson. We will do it twice

1228
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 1: in three times. The Alexa flood is just the first time.

1229
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,040
Speaker 1: There will be a second, a third, a fourth, he continued,

1230
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:22,640
Speaker 1: Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we

1231
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:24,880
Speaker 1: are ready to pay it. We are called a nation

1232
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:29,320
Speaker 1: of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs. How

1233
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:31,400
Speaker 1: do you interpret those sorts of comments?

1234
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:34,400
Speaker 4: Number one?

1235
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:39,320
Speaker 5: In the United States, anybody who's on to the left

1236
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 5: on the political spectrum, we always like to use the

1237
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:49,600
Speaker 5: piece of the wisdom. Wherever there's oppression, there is resistance.

1238
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 5: So as a factual matter, what he's saying is true,

1239
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:58,160
Speaker 5: except if the whole population is exterminated, which is I

1240
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 5: think there's a reason possibility that large numbers will be

1241
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:05,600
Speaker 5: wiped out. Gaza will turn into a howling wilderness, and

1242
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,720
Speaker 5: each you will have to open its gates, and resistance

1243
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 5: at that point in God's will be very difficult because

1244
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:18,120
Speaker 5: there won't be a guzza. But barring that eventuality, yes,

1245
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 5: he's correct, there will be one. There will be two,

1246
01:40:20,479 --> 01:40:22,960
Speaker 5: there will be three. Guess what, Chrystal ready for this?

1247
01:40:23,040 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 5: Brace yourself? There was one, there was two, there was three.

1248
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:28,439
Speaker 5: Many slave revolts in the United States? Are you shocked

1249
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 5: by that? Are you shocked that slaves kept revolting? Is

1250
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:38,720
Speaker 5: that a shocking admission? When he says, we're going to

1251
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:45,759
Speaker 5: continue to revolt until the walls of this concentration camp

1252
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:52,439
Speaker 5: are broken down. I'm not shocked by that. The second

1253
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:53,080
Speaker 5: part of his.

1254
01:40:55,760 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 4: Admission, Oh my god, he said we as a people

1255
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 4: are going to resist until we get their freedom.

1256
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:07,839
Speaker 5: Hey, maybe he heard Patrick Henry say give me liberty

1257
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:08,679
Speaker 5: or give me death.

1258
01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 4: That's such an odd notion. I was reading Winston Churchill's.

1259
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:20,240
Speaker 5: Famous speech during World War Two the other day where

1260
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 5: he said, we're willing to starve, We're willing to die

1261
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 5: in order to beat the Nazi horror menace whatever he

1262
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 5: called it. When we say that, that's heroic, that's courageous.

1263
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 5: It's a hallmark of our civilization that we're willing to

1264
01:41:50,080 --> 01:41:56,880
Speaker 5: be martyrs in the pursuit of freedom. But suddenly, when

1265
01:41:56,920 --> 01:42:05,320
Speaker 5: he says it, it conjures up, she hatties, suicide bombers.

1266
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:12,400
Speaker 5: It suddenly becomes sinister to say that you're going to

1267
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:16,479
Speaker 5: fight to the last for your freedom.

1268
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:19,920
Speaker 4: Give me liberty or give me death.

1269
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 1: Another question that I thought was was a good one

1270
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:30,360
Speaker 1: and worth worth tackling with you, this individual rights. If

1271
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:32,760
Speaker 1: you think there should be a ceasefire, what is your

1272
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:35,519
Speaker 1: plan for afterwards? A ceasefire, and then.

1273
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:42,440
Speaker 5: What look excellent question because people don't ask those questions.

1274
01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:52,120
Speaker 5: That's an excellent question. Now, if a ceasefire means that

1275
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:57,719
Speaker 5: the Palestinians are going to continue to live in peace

1276
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:01,760
Speaker 5: in the concentration camp, that these fires.

1277
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 4: Obviously not going to hold up.

1278
01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:12,400
Speaker 5: That's perfectly obvious, because if you freeze the situation as

1279
01:43:12,439 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 5: it is now, the concentration camp remains in place. So

1280
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 5: I'm not going to pretend that Palestinians, Gossens, the gods

1281
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:38,560
Speaker 5: of leadership, is going to acquiesce to a ceasefire into eternity.

1282
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 5: That's obviously a morally depraved.

1283
01:43:45,320 --> 01:43:48,160
Speaker 4: And an intellectually insane.

1284
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 5: Proposition, unless you assume, as Israel has always hoped, that

1285
01:43:54,360 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 5: the Gossens will simply languish and die in Gaza, they

1286
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:09,160
Speaker 5: will be forgotten, they will just languish and die. But

1287
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 5: borry that eventuality. Of course, the ceasefire can't on its own.

1288
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:24,160
Speaker 5: Of course, the cease fire can't be sustained over a long.

1289
01:44:24,040 --> 01:44:24,920
Speaker 4: Period of time.

1290
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:29,919
Speaker 5: And I'm not going to pretend that people in Gaza

1291
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:38,519
Speaker 5: are going to buide by a ceasefire that leaves them

1292
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 5: to be born, live and die in a concentration camp.

1293
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:49,200
Speaker 5: So in my view, the demands now at this moment

1294
01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:54,919
Speaker 5: have to be ceasefire now, and the blockade of Gaza

1295
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:59,400
Speaker 5: and stop the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. But

1296
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:04,680
Speaker 5: those are immediate demands. What has to come afterwards is

1297
01:45:04,720 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 5: what I've said already to you to the point of tedium.

1298
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:10,080
Speaker 5: There has to be a settlement on the basis of

1299
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:13,839
Speaker 5: international law, because there's no other framework for resolving the conflict.

1300
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,760
Speaker 5: The international community agrees in that framework. There's not been

1301
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 5: any significant descent except for the United States in Israel,

1302
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:24,600
Speaker 5: and therefore the ceasefire has to be followed.

1303
01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 4: Within a reasonable period of time.

1304
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:31,560
Speaker 5: I can't give the time because the figures, the statements

1305
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:34,639
Speaker 5: now coming out of Israel are in order to rebuild

1306
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 5: guys who would take five years. In the northern part,

1307
01:45:37,439 --> 01:45:42,280
Speaker 5: there's nothing there. It's gone, it's been vaporized. So I

1308
01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:43,559
Speaker 5: can't tell you when.

1309
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:46,320
Speaker 4: But I will not.

1310
01:45:46,479 --> 01:45:52,040
Speaker 5: Pretend that even if a ceasefire is reached, which Israel

1311
01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 5: opposes and the United States opposes, and Hillary Clinton opposes,

1312
01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:59,799
Speaker 5: even if it were reach, that it would be permanent,

1313
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 5: because permanent means the people of Gaza permanently confined to

1314
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:09,439
Speaker 5: a concentration him.

1315
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:12,880
Speaker 1: Last question that I have for you, which is another

1316
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 1: audience question that I thought was very interesting. Do you

1317
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:19,360
Speaker 1: believe it is permissible that, as an American with no

1318
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:22,880
Speaker 1: familial or ancestral ties to Israeli Palestine, that a person

1319
01:46:22,960 --> 01:46:25,759
Speaker 1: cannot side with either group during this conflict. Both groups

1320
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:27,559
Speaker 1: have and are doing wrong to one another, both have

1321
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,800
Speaker 1: understandable grievances that should be heard. Or is there a

1322
01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 1: moral and civic onus on an otherwise a political and

1323
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 1: non partisan American to do enough research to have strong

1324
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:41,240
Speaker 1: enough reasoning to choose a side. So, in other words,

1325
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: do you think it is morally incumbent on people to

1326
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:47,479
Speaker 1: educate themselves on this conflict sufficient enough that they take

1327
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:47,960
Speaker 1: a side?

1328
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,200
Speaker 4: Okay?

1329
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:55,200
Speaker 5: Number one has something to do with familiar or blood

1330
01:46:55,880 --> 01:47:00,200
Speaker 5: or lineal conduction. I hate to sound like an an

1331
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:02,200
Speaker 5: Old Testament profit.

1332
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:06,000
Speaker 4: I am old, but I'm not a profit.

1333
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 5: Nonetheless, for me, and I think it should be for everyone,

1334
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 5: the issue is not blood tie, lineal tie, or any

1335
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:16,759
Speaker 5: other tie.

1336
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:20,120
Speaker 4: It's just about what's true and what's just.

1337
01:47:21,360 --> 01:47:25,400
Speaker 5: If Israel what we're doing, we're true, and it was

1338
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:29,640
Speaker 5: just whatever my personal feelings about it might be, I

1339
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:33,920
Speaker 5: would have to support them. But number two is the

1340
01:47:34,040 --> 01:47:37,720
Speaker 5: question you asked, I should say the second part what

1341
01:47:37,760 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 5: I'm talking about was implied in the question. Now let's

1342
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:47,240
Speaker 5: get to the literal question. Obviously, it's not within any

1343
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:52,920
Speaker 5: individual's capacity, except maybe Professor Chomsky. It's not with any

1344
01:47:52,960 --> 01:48:00,640
Speaker 5: individual's capacity to master every conflict in the world and

1345
01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:07,840
Speaker 5: to possess sufficient factual information to render.

1346
01:48:07,560 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 4: A judgment of right and wrong.

1347
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 5: For most mortals here I'll exclude Professor Johnsky.

1348
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 4: That's not possible.

1349
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:24,000
Speaker 5: However, I have to enter two caveats, two reservations. Caveat

1350
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 5: number one, This current moment does not require a mastery effects.

1351
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 5: A genocide is unfolding in real time before our eyes,

1352
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:45,560
Speaker 5: and so all you have to do is ask yourself

1353
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:52,680
Speaker 5: a question. Do you think it requires a mastery of

1354
01:48:53,000 --> 01:48:59,599
Speaker 5: facts to render a judgment on whether or not it's

1355
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 5: right to deny food, water, fuel, and electricity to a

1356
01:49:10,720 --> 01:49:17,320
Speaker 5: civilian population, one half of which is children. Can you

1357
01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:21,040
Speaker 5: I'm asking you, I'm asking you as an intelligent woman, Yeah,

1358
01:49:21,120 --> 01:49:27,160
Speaker 5: as a mother. Can you imagine any circumstance in which

1359
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 5: you would say, such is the circumstance that I have

1360
01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:36,680
Speaker 5: to agree to deny any food, water, fuel, electricity to

1361
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 5: one and a half million children.

1362
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 1: No, to me, the current, the current moment is not

1363
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 1: complicated at all. The history is very complicated. You know,

1364
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 1: the details of all the peace deals, all of that

1365
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: very complex, But the current situation to me is very

1366
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 1: cut and dry, actually exactly.

1367
01:49:55,760 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 5: And number two, the problem is not that people don't

1368
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:03,720
Speaker 5: know the facts.

1369
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:06,800
Speaker 4: The problem is the people in.

1370
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 5: Power lying and lying and lying and lying about the facts.

1371
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:21,240
Speaker 5: That's the problem. I excuse ignorance. The other day I

1372
01:50:21,360 --> 01:50:24,519
Speaker 5: was on with two I did two interviews, not to

1373
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:30,479
Speaker 5: have done so many, but with both Mikhaeleb Peterson and

1374
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:36,800
Speaker 5: Cands Owens, and each of them began by saying, I

1375
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 5: really don't know anything about this conflict, and I appreciate that.

1376
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 5: I appreciate the humility we come in. And I thought that,

1377
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:48,640
Speaker 5: of course, why should you know? You know, godsas a

1378
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 5: postage stamp on the world's now, why would you know

1379
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 5: more about Goza than you would know about a country

1380
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:59,040
Speaker 5: in Africa. That's I get that. So that to me,

1381
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 5: it's completely understandable and doesn't raise any significant moral questions.

1382
01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:11,000
Speaker 5: But her father, Mikhaela Peterson's father, Jordan Peterson, is a

1383
01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 5: very sick liar.

1384
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:14,840
Speaker 4: That's a problem to me.

1385
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 5: When he comes up and he says, he's asked by

1386
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:21,760
Speaker 5: Piers Morgan what caused this conflict, he says, well, I'll

1387
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,719
Speaker 5: tell you what caused it. It was he ran rattling

1388
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:30,639
Speaker 5: the chain of Hamas, what are you talking about? Israeli

1389
01:51:30,720 --> 01:51:34,839
Speaker 5: intelligence doesn't say that, And then you get.

1390
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 4: You get.

1391
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:46,880
Speaker 5: Kenda's Owens colleague Ben Shapiro, who puts out these videos.

1392
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:51,760
Speaker 4: With one ignorant lie after.

1393
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:59,560
Speaker 5: The other, not even sophisticated lies, so ignorant, so in

1394
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:09,320
Speaker 5: thisci silic so shameless, so ridiculous, so preposterous, that to.

1395
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:09,800
Speaker 4: Me is the.

1396
01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:13,880
Speaker 5: Problem on a moral you know, on a moral level.

1397
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:17,000
Speaker 5: I remember my mother once said we were talking about

1398
01:52:17,080 --> 01:52:20,840
Speaker 5: Poland no during the war, during her experience during the war,

1399
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:28,479
Speaker 5: and she said, I never held it against Poles publish

1400
01:52:28,560 --> 01:52:34,479
Speaker 5: people who wouldn't help us, because she said, you know,

1401
01:52:34,520 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 5: in Poland, if you helped the Jews during World War too,

1402
01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:39,759
Speaker 5: they just shot you dead. You don't get a trial.

1403
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:44,080
Speaker 5: You were aimed, the better the Jew boom, you're shot dead.

1404
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:47,559
Speaker 5: And my mother never pretended to be a hero, and

1405
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:49,479
Speaker 5: I think in the back of her mind she thought

1406
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:51,080
Speaker 5: I wouldn't open the door.

1407
01:52:52,840 --> 01:52:57,439
Speaker 4: Okay, so she didn't fold them. She said what she

1408
01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 4: faulded was the Poles who's stood along the.

1409
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:05,040
Speaker 5: Wall of the ghetto and were gleeful as they saw

1410
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 5: what was happening to the Jews.

1411
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:11,200
Speaker 4: Those are the ones she passed judgment on.

1412
01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:13,720
Speaker 5: But my mother held by the addity there but for

1413
01:53:13,800 --> 01:53:16,160
Speaker 5: the grace of God go I. I wouldn't let them

1414
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 5: in my home. If a Jewish flee and looks to

1415
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 5: my place, looks to my home for refuge, and it's

1416
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 5: the same thing here. Ignorance is an excuse because the

1417
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:33,479
Speaker 5: world is a big place, many conflicts. You can focus

1418
01:53:33,520 --> 01:53:38,200
Speaker 5: on one or two most mortal people, but everyone.

1419
01:53:37,960 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 4: No, not possible.

1420
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:50,200
Speaker 5: But when you are a person of power or prominence and.

1421
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:53,040
Speaker 4: You're using your.

1422
01:53:54,520 --> 01:54:07,679
Speaker 5: Position to disseminate the ugliest, the stupidest, the most idiotic lies.

1423
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 5: I have a friend and Ben Peter Ben Shapiro's in

1424
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:17,439
Speaker 5: his current video the first two minutes it's about ancient

1425
01:54:17,560 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 5: biblical history. Okay, my friend. Her name is Deborah MacCabe.

1426
01:54:23,280 --> 01:54:27,719
Speaker 5: She's the daughter of Hyam Maccabee, the famed British Jewish historian,

1427
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:31,640
Speaker 5: and she happened to look at that video because I

1428
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:32,760
Speaker 5: had been writing about.

1429
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 4: It, and she went through just the first two minutes.

1430
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:39,960
Speaker 5: She said, I couldn't find one statement that was even

1431
01:54:40,040 --> 01:54:49,720
Speaker 5: remotely accurate, not one about Joshua, about the name Palestine.

1432
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 5: And then she mapped out for me this huge scholarly undertaking.

1433
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 4: She's going to expose every lie.

1434
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 5: In the first two minutes, in the first two minutes,

1435
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:09,280
Speaker 5: and these people use their power and their position to

1436
01:55:09,480 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 5: lie as Israel conducts its genocide in Gaza. Those people

1437
01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:24,040
Speaker 5: are revolting, revolting. They're also revolting cowards. Mister Shapiro, you

1438
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:29,560
Speaker 5: know so much, why don't you debate me? Where's the problem?

1439
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:35,400
Speaker 5: You like to depend college students. I suppose you debate

1440
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:41,360
Speaker 5: people in their second trimester, But how about debating an

1441
01:55:41,400 --> 01:55:51,080
Speaker 5: adult who studied it. They won't lead cowards cowards and criminals, criminals.

1442
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:55,440
Speaker 1: Doctor Norman Finkelstein, I know that you are very much

1443
01:55:55,520 --> 01:55:58,640
Speaker 1: in demand right now, and so I'm extremely grateful to you,

1444
01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:00,760
Speaker 1: and our audience is grateful to you taking so much

1445
01:56:00,800 --> 01:56:04,000
Speaker 1: time with us. Anywhere you want people to follow you

1446
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:06,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter? Is there any one of your books in

1447
01:56:06,440 --> 01:56:08,120
Speaker 1: particular you would recommend to people?

1448
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 4: My technics will kill me.

1449
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:11,840
Speaker 5: But the answer is, I don't even know how to

1450
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:14,080
Speaker 5: tell somebody to follow me because you have to.

1451
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:15,760
Speaker 4: Go through these steps on the web, and I don't

1452
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:19,800
Speaker 4: know what it requires. My books, I try not to.

1453
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:23,480
Speaker 5: I don't like to come across as profiting from misery.

1454
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 5: But if you want background, mine is really the only

1455
01:56:26,520 --> 01:56:30,840
Speaker 5: book out there. It's God's an inquest into its smarter.

1456
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 1: Them, and that's the one that I've been reading, and

1457
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 1: I would also recommend it to people.

1458
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:37,920
Speaker 3: So it's great to see you.

1459
01:56:38,040 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and again, thank you for spending

1460
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:41,680
Speaker 1: so much time with us my pleasure.

1461
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:43,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, of course,