1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: On this episode of the news World. Tragedy unfolded on 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: April nineteenth, nineteen ninety five, when a massive bomb exploded 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: in America's heartland, killing one hundred and sixty eight people, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: including fifteen children in their daycare center. History says the 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Oklahoma City bombing was lone wolf terrorism, but fresh evidence 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: points instead to a neo Nazi plot in which the 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: FBI played a hidden role, allowing suspects to walk free. 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: The FBI launched the biggest man hunting its history for 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: two suspected bombers, and quickly arrested Timothy McVeigh, a twenty 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: six year old Gulf War Army veteran. Yet they never 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: captured the other suspect, known only as John Doe two, 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: who rode next to McVeigh in the bomb truck. Soon 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: the FBI canceled the search, saying eyewitnesses who while John 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: Doe two were mistaken. In her new book, Blowback, Margaret 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: Roberts reopens the mystery of John Doe two and chronicles 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: her shocking discoveries, including journalism's only face to face prison 17 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: interviews with McVeigh co conspirator Terry Nichols. Here to discuss 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: her new book. I am really pleased to welcome my guests, 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: Margaret Roberts. She is the former news director of America's 20 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: Most Wanted. Margaret, welcome and thank you for joining me 21 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: on news World. 22 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: Thank you, mister Speaker. 23 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: It is an honor to be here with you. 24 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: You were news director of America's Most Wanted, which was 25 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: an amazingly successful program. You are deeply familiar with the 26 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: FBI and criminal investigations, but I want to start with 27 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted because it became such a popular show 28 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: and in many ways an iconic show that people really 29 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: cueued off of and paid attention to. How did you 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: get to America's Most Wanted? 31 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 3: Well, I was a print journalist, mister Speaker, in the 32 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 3: very button down world, which you know very well of Washington, 33 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: DC policy and politics. I was a top editor at 34 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 3: National Journal, and then I moved over to Congressional Quarterly. 35 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 3: So it was a very different beat from America's Most Wanted. 36 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: But what happened was it was a radical media experiment 37 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 3: when Barry Diller at Fox decided to take a flyer 38 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 3: and put this television show in the backyard of the 39 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 3: FBI and propose to them that they partner with Hollywood 40 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: basically to catch criminals. 41 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: And it was a bold move. 42 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 3: And I always have kind of suspected that part of 43 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: my hiring or choice of me for the job was 44 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: that I really represented the Washington journalists, not the Hollywood type. 45 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: But I was the more buttoned down, conventional one, and 46 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 3: they had a lot of explaining and persuading to do 47 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 3: to bring the FBI on board for this media experiment. 48 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: I've seen the show, but how did you get put together? 49 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: Did you all sit down with the FBI and look 50 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: at a range of possibilities or how wout a typical 51 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: show for America's most wanted to actually be put together? Well? 52 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: I ran the news room and the research department, and 53 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: I was the liaison with the FBI as well as 54 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: with victims and cops. So my department effort was all 55 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: about identifying fugitive cases. You know, the FBI would give 56 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 3: us files and help us in that way, but delivering 57 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: and developing fugitive cases and files that would make compelling TV. 58 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: I mean, not every case would have the story value. 59 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: How often did those stories actually lead to finding the 60 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: criminal you were looking for? 61 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 3: I bet the show captured a thousand fugitives, but we 62 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 3: captured hundreds while I was there, and these were high 63 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 3: profile fugitives. The night of our premiere was an extraordinary 64 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 3: moment in television history because there we were at the 65 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: WTTG television station where we had our headquarters, and there 66 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 3: was the FBI about fifteen agents, you know, in their suits, 67 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: up against the wall, our brand new phone bank that 68 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: we had developed with call one eight hundred Crime. 69 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: TV, and we rolled the tape. 70 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: Well, you were asking how it's put together. Field producers, 71 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: mister Speaker had made the segments. 72 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: That were the stories. 73 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 3: It was started as a half hour show, so they 74 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: had made the stories and then they were rolled together 75 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 3: in a studio session where John Walsh would do the 76 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: wrap around the stories. 77 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: And that night we rolled. 78 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: Our very first story featuring one of the FBI's ten 79 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 3: most wanted criminals, and he was a criminal. Monster was 80 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: a prison escapee who had abducted a young woman with 81 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 3: a baby, raped her through the baby out in the 82 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: cold where it died, and stuffed her in the trunk 83 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: of her car and took off. So we rolled our 84 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 3: segment about that crime and that criminal, and the first 85 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: thing that happened was a blanket of phone calls from 86 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: Staten Island, New York. But they weren't calling to tell 87 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: us congratulations. They were calling to tell us that we 88 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: were soon going to be off the air because we 89 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 3: had made a terrible mistake. This picture that they were 90 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: looking at was the beloved director of their homeless mission 91 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: there on Staten Island, and it couldn't possibly have been 92 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: the man that we were looking for, but it was. 93 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: And five days later one of the FBI's ten most 94 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 3: wanted criminals was in custody and we were immediate phenomenon. 95 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: So this guy had committed that crime, but had gotten 96 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: to Staten Island. Where was the crime committed? 97 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: Gary Indiana tells you the. 98 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: Reach of television. I mean, you put it on TV and. 99 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: Boom, absolutely and somehow in this case, I think fate 100 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: also because we were on a very short leash as 101 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 3: to the future of that show, and it was only 102 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: broadcast on seven Fox owned and operated stations nationwide. If 103 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: he had been hiding out in some small town, we 104 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: likely wouldn't have found him and we likely wouldn't have 105 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: been renewed for another season. 106 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: So things happened for a reason. 107 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: Did capturing that criminal pretty much guarantee that you would 108 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: go to the whole network. 109 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and maybe we would have any but we 110 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 3: felt we had to have one big capture to be 111 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: picked up. 112 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: That was our feeling. 113 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: What led you then to decide that you wanted to 114 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: write about Oklahoma City? 115 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: Well, that was a long and I really think odyssey, 116 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 3: mister Speaker is the right way to put it, because 117 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: I had moved on from America's Most Wanted. But of 118 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: course I had been in the cockpit of high profile 119 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 3: manhunts for three years. I mean, a regular journalist just 120 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: doesn't get that close to how the FBI is capturing 121 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 3: bad guys, but I did, and then moved on to 122 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: Los Angeles. 123 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: That was just a couple of years that I was. 124 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 3: Out there working on developing a new show when this 125 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: bomb exploded in Oklahoma City. And how I became involved 126 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 3: in investigating the case takes another ten years to explain. 127 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: But when the bomb went. 128 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: Off, I had two perspectives. One, just like millions of Americans, 129 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: probably yourself, it's one of those rare moments where you 130 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: remember where you were because it's just so profound. And 131 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 3: I watched that devastation, which was almost immediately live on 132 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: television and saw the destruction, the agony, the fear, the blood, 133 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 3: the concrete, all of it, the devastation the children. As 134 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 3: you know, the icon from that day is the firefighter 135 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 3: holding the dying or dead one year old. I saw 136 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: all of that, and I felt all of that agony. 137 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: I also felt from my experience that America's most wanted. 138 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is the big one, this is 139 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 3: the big man hunt. 140 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: Because of course the perpetrators were. 141 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 3: Gone and the hunt was on, and my thought was, 142 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: who could have done this? So I became hooked on 143 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: the story as a news junkie, as a horrified American. 144 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't working it. 145 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: But I sure wished that I was back at America's 146 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: Most Wanted, in the middle of a newsroom where I 147 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: could have chased that story and had the best sources 148 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: in America, the cops and the federal agents that were 149 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: on speed dial. 150 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 2: That's how it struck me. There were many things. 151 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 3: I don't want to get ahead here, but there were 152 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: many reasons to wonder immediately about that story, and I 153 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: think probably America's Most Wanted may have given me a 154 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: head start, but I'm sure a lot of people wondered 155 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: about discrepancies that arose immediately in that story. One of 156 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: them was twenty four eyewitnesses, regular ordinary people in Oklahoma 157 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 3: City saw. 158 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: Timothy McVeigh and the man. 159 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: Next to him arrive at the Mirror building to bomb 160 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 3: the building and exit the rider truck before the bomb 161 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: went off. So, right away a story that became lone 162 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: wolf terror the prosecution of Timothy McVeigh. Obviously there was 163 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 3: more to it than lone wolf terror. That was a 164 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: first flag, if you will, that there was more to 165 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: this story, and it immediately got magnified by stories. Top 166 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: journalists were reporting in the best newspapers that the FBI 167 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 3: had surveillance videotaped. 168 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: Of the bombers and the. 169 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: Bombing, So again there were obviously more than one. And 170 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: to me, really compelling is that a juror, a grand 171 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 3: juror on the McVeigh grand jury, was so disturbed by 172 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: what was going on inside that jury that he went rogue. 173 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: And of course, as you know, mister speaker, the grand 174 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: jury proceedings are on the federal level especially, are very 175 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:49,239 Speaker 3: tightly kept secrets. He started leaking to the Oklahoma newspaper 176 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 3: and then wrote a letter to the judge actually written 177 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: after the indictment came in, he complained bitterly that the 178 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: prosecutors who were managing that grand jury had rigged it, 179 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 3: and specifically rigged it by concealing the identity of John 180 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: Doe two. So, to answer your question, there just were 181 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: all these red flags as I was first fascinated by 182 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 3: the story, and then watching the story, and then watching 183 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: as the FBI by June of nineteen ninety five suddenly 184 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: did a U turn called off the biggest manhunt in 185 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: American history for John Doe two, who had a two 186 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 3: million dollar reward for his capture, and came up with 187 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 3: a preposterous explanation of how the mechanic at the Ryder 188 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 3: Rental truck agency must have misremembered the two men who 189 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 3: came in to rent the bomb truck. He must have 190 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 3: thought it was the two guys who. 191 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: Were there the day before. 192 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: And it was just a preposterous explanation. As the rogue 193 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 3: grandeuror said in an interview, Oh my god, that was 194 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 3: the thing that got my attention to begin with, that 195 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: there was something wrong about this investigation. 196 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I flew in the second night and went and visited 197 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: the rescue workers and it was really horrifying. Prior to 198 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: nine to eleven, I don't think of anything quite like 199 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: it in American soil. And I went back a few 200 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: years ago to the museum they now have, which I 201 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: really encourage all of our listeners if you ever go 202 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: to oklah Alama City. It's a very sobering and compelling 203 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: experience to see just how much damage was done and 204 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: how many innocent people were killed. But the museum doesn't 205 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: really deal with the issue of the year book. I 206 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: think your book is going to really put back on 207 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: the front burner some very significant questions. Now you actually 208 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: got to interview Nichols. Is that correct? First of all, 209 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: how did you get to do it? And second what 210 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: was it like? 211 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: Well, it was extraordinary, and how I got to do 212 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: it takes a little bit of telling. It's ten years in. 213 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 3: I basically was summoned to Oklahoma City by a survivor 214 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: who knew I was prowling around on the tenth anniversary 215 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: thinking about a story for America's Most Wanted and she 216 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: called me and without much introduction, just summoned me to 217 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: Oklahoma City. 218 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: We need your help out here. It was just one 219 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: of those. 220 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: Moments I just got on a plane and went to 221 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 3: Oklahoma City and then went on to Salt Lake City, 222 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: where she had pointed me to a man, an attorney 223 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: named Jesse Trinidou, who becomes central in this investigation and 224 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 3: is the reason I could interview Terry Nichols, who is 225 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 3: off limits. Wasn't his off limits to other reporters. Jesse 226 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: believes that the FBI murdered his brother, who was a prisoner. 227 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 3: Jesse is the lawyer in the family. His brother was 228 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: a prisoner, a parole violator, arrested in southern California in 229 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: mid June, right about the time the FBI was backing 230 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: away from its John Doe two identification, kept in custody 231 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: in Southern California for two months and then suddenly and 232 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: inexplicably transferred to Oklahoma City, supposedly for a parole violation hearing, 233 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 3: but three days later he was found tortured and murdered 234 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: in his federal prison cell. And the connection to the 235 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: Oklahoma City bombing, as Jesse would learn later, is that 236 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 3: Kenneth Trinidou was a dead ringer lookalike for John Doe two. 237 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 3: The wanted poster that the FBI was seeking he was 238 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: muscularly built, he had the tattoo, he stood about the 239 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: correct height and weight, And that began for Jesse, not 240 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: yet for me, but for Jesse, the odyssey of connecting 241 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 3: his brother's murder to the Oklahoma City bombing. That connection 242 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 3: came incredibly at first from Timothy McVeigh himself on death row, 243 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 3: who told Jesse through another death row inmate, that the 244 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 3: FBI had mistaken his brother for another man, Richard Guthrie, 245 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: who was the leader of this Aryan Republican Army neo 246 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: Nazi group that figures in the bombing story. So Jesse 247 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 3: was chasing all of that through a devoted circle of 248 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 3: journalists who eventually surrounded him and became his brain trust, 249 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: and went into federal court with Foya demands and Foyle 250 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 3: lawsuits to force information out of the FBI as to 251 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 3: what really happened. And by the time I arrived on 252 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: the scene, what Jesse needed was more information to file 253 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 3: more freedom of information at lawsuits. So he chose me, 254 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 3: as as he says, stealth reporter who could go into 255 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: the prisons because I was his paralegal. So that's how 256 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: I interviewed Terry Nichols and Jesse went with me on 257 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 3: the first interview, and it was remarkable. Nichols had enticed 258 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: us with the prospect that he was going to be 259 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 3: able to help tie the Aryan Republican Army gang to 260 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: the bombing. That isn't what materialized in that interview. Nichols 261 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 3: had another agenda and made two extraordinary revelations in that interview. 262 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: His interest. His agenda was. 263 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 3: To incriminate this gun dealer named Roger Moore, who was 264 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 3: always portrayed in these bombing prosecutions as the victim of 265 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: Nichols and mcveigh's robbery that happened in late nineteen ninety four. 266 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 3: But Nichols claimed that Roger Moore was a government operative. 267 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 3: My investigation leads to suspected government operative after suspected government operative. 268 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: Until this story and case begins more and more to 269 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 3: resemble the Governor Whitmer kidnapped plot than the lone wolf 270 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 3: terror plot that we have been told. 271 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: For thirty years. 272 00:20:53,160 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: And Nichols had, incredibly from his supermax prison cell, inducted 273 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: an exhaustive investigation of Roger Moore and came up with 274 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: very compelling evidence. 275 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: Wait, you're saying, hold on, how do you do research 276 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: from a supermax. 277 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 3: Well through your lawyers. So he had research from two 278 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: bombing trials and very high profile legal representations. So he 279 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 3: had a lot of stuff that was delivered in discovery 280 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: to them, and he actually had quite a lot of 281 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: exclusive material. And also one of his most remarkable revelations 282 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: was that in two thousand and four, as he awaited 283 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 3: his second trial, the state trial in Oklahoma, he was 284 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 3: visited by an attorney who represented himself as an off 285 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: the books envoy from the Department of Justice in Washington, 286 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 3: offering Terry Nichols that the DOJ could take the death 287 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 3: penalty off the table if he would help locate a 288 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 3: box of explosives belonging to Roger Moore. Those explosives Nichols 289 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 3: had taken in the robbery. What was significant to Nichols 290 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 3: is that Moore's name and address was on that cart, 291 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 3: and so were his fingerprints, which Nichols believed was going 292 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: to tie him to the bombing. Because Nichols claimed that 293 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: Roger Moore not only was the government operative, but was 294 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 3: a provocateur who provided explosives used in the bomb The envoy, 295 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 3: or supposed it envoy from Washington to Nichols shock the 296 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: plea bargaining went sideway when Nichols said he certainly, could 297 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 3: you know, help incriminate Roger Moore, and he was told 298 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: by the envoy that Roger Moore, and this is verbatim 299 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: from Nichols, was untouchable. Another attorney of Nicholls confirmed that 300 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 3: this transaction actually happened, that this lawyer did show up, 301 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 3: did make this offer, but that attorney concluded for some 302 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: reason that this must have all been a hoax. 303 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: But it did happen. 304 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 3: Terry Nichols obviously had been seething for many years by 305 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 3: the time I interviewed him, and he was a man 306 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: shrunken with agony, almost fragile. He seemed to be in 307 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: agony over more than he is ever admitted to, and 308 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 3: he was just driven to deliver the case against Roger Moore. 309 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 3: The other stunning highlight of the Nichols interview was his 310 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: allegation that Timothy McVeigh, while they were in the run 311 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 3: up to the bombing, while they were conspiring and preparing, 312 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 3: had let slip to Terry Nichols that he was operating 313 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 3: as an undercover federal operative in the bomb plot, and that, 314 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 3: of course is a head spinning idea when you first 315 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: hear it. It has some support from other sources, but 316 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: obviously coming from Terry Nichols, it's not going to stand 317 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: on its own. But I will just mention a because 318 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 3: you probably have that as a question. Timothy McVeigh told 319 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 3: his first attorneys, who were public defenders before he was 320 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 3: quickly passed on to Stephen Jones. So within days and 321 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 3: hours of the bombing itself, he told those attorneys that 322 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 3: he was working undercover. And he told those attorneys that 323 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 3: he was stunned by witnessing the damage done by the bomb, 324 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 3: as if he did not believe that his bomb was 325 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: going to bring that kind of devastation to the building. 326 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 3: And he also wrote a letter to his sister, which 327 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: was published in the New York Times at some point, 328 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 3: telling her that he had been plucked out of Special 329 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 3: Operations training tryouts and made part of this special undercover unit. 330 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 3: So those were the really stunning headlines of the Terry 331 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 3: Nichols interview. 332 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: In your judgment, looking at all the different stuff you're 333 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: looking at, do you think that the FBI was trying 334 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: to set up a sting and a gut out of control. 335 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 3: Yes, I do, And there's at the edge, I would 336 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 3: say of my investigation again, this is the Jesse Trinadou, 337 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: the attorney who is carrying the flag for all of 338 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 3: these years. Eventually, in twenty eleven, a fellow marine of 339 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 3: Jesse's comes out of the shadows and says, I've been 340 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 3: following your crusade for justice for your I want to 341 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 3: tell you about the FBI's pat Con program. The whistleblower 342 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 3: is John Matthews. He was a top FBI undercover in 343 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 3: the program, which is short for patriot conspiracy, that was 344 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 3: targeting right wing extremist groups in the nineteen nineties before 345 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 3: the bombing and after. 346 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: In fact, and the FBI. 347 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: Represents this program as simply a limited infiltration program that 348 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 3: targeted three groups. John Matthews and his first phone called 349 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 3: to Jesse said, you wouldn't believe how big or how 350 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 3: ugly this is. I want to come to Salt Lake 351 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 3: City and tell you about it. He worked undercover in 352 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 3: this program for eight years and he personally infiltrated twenty 353 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 3: two right wing groups. 354 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: He described it as. 355 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 3: A sprawling, rogue program that eventually he became so disillusioned 356 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: about being part of that he left. But what his 357 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 3: discovery was that it was inciting the violence that he 358 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: believed he had joined up to stop. John Matthews was 359 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: based in Arizona. He told Jesse that he believed Oklahoma 360 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: City was a pat Con operation, and he told Jesse 361 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: that he knew for a fact that the FBI set 362 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: up the Aryan Republican Army Gang as a front group 363 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: inside pat Con. So the pieces begin to fall together 364 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 3: about what really happened. And yes, my conclusion is that 365 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: Oklahoma City was not an act of lone wolf terror 366 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 3: by any stretch. It was manufactured terror. It was made 367 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 3: in Washington, DC by the FBI, and it was tragically 368 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: a sting operation that went sideways in somehow as we 369 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: still don't know and won't find out until we can 370 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: learn the rest of the truth. 371 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: I have to ask you, because you've done so much 372 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: research here and you have such great credibility as somebody 373 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: who has worked with the FBI, understands the process and 374 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: is a good reporter, doesn't this almost beg Cash Battel 375 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: to go through and release the documents that would indicate 376 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: exactly what was going on. 377 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 3: In that absolutely, mister Speaker, Jesse Trinidou has a letter 378 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 3: on the desk of Attorney General Bondie asking the Department 379 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 3: of Justice to stand down from resisting the unseiling of 380 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 3: the whistleblower John Matthews deposition, which would lay out in 381 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 3: its entirety what pat con was in the nineteen nineties, 382 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 3: and absolutely this case, if I could just mention one 383 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 3: last major feature of it, and it is the grand 384 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: finale of this cover up, is that John Matthews. First 385 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: Newsweek jumped on the John Matthews story, and they did 386 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: write a profile, a cover story about John Matthews. But 387 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: on the day of the eve of publication, that story, 388 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: under intense pressure from the Justice Department, was gutted in 389 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 3: an executive edit, and all mention of pat con the 390 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 3: Oklahoma City bombing Timothy McVeigh under surveillance months before the bombing, 391 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 3: all that was gone. The whistleblower was furious. He agreed 392 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: volunteered to be Jesse's star witness in the Foyer trial, 393 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 3: seeking to force the FBI to release the video tapes 394 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: because those videotapes, which the FBI has never allowed the 395 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 3: public to see, very likely would identify John Doe two, 396 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: perhaps identify a federal undercover operative on the scene somewhere 397 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 3: in the shot and would tell the tale of what 398 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 3: actually happened. On the eve of John Matthews's testimony, he 399 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: pulled out of the trial. 400 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: Pulled out as a witness. 401 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: Told Jesse he had been pressured by the FBI and 402 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: that in almost a plea, he said, I don't want 403 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: to be just another vet living under a bridge. He 404 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 3: feared that his handlers would take his disability, his pension, 405 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: and he was gone as the witness in the trial. 406 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 3: Now the trial, this is twenty fourteen. That trial was 407 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 3: finished and Jesse immediately filed formal witness tampering charges against 408 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 3: the FBI, and the court appointed a special master to 409 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 3: investigate those charges. But the judge said he was going 410 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: to wait on the verdict in the surveillance videotapes case 411 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: until that investigation was complete. And that was eleven years ago. 412 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 3: So yes, I fully believe that in the spirit of 413 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: the new transparency that Cash Patel and Attorney General Bondi 414 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 3: could open the door to the truth about this story. 415 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: I also think we need to look at the cost 416 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 3: of all of this silence. I mean, since the Oklahoma 417 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 3: City bombing, we have had the Boston bombing, where there 418 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 3: are serious suspicions that the older brother was an FBI informant. 419 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 3: Now the Jeffrey Epstein story with potential of his connections 420 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 3: to intelligence January sixth, where Congress for five years has 421 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: been trying to find out how many informants were on 422 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 3: the ground, and just this week Russian collusion and the 423 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: questions of what role the FBI might have played in 424 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: all of that. It boils down to a creeping surveillance 425 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 3: crisis that urgently needs to be exposed. 426 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: You had mentioned the letter which is already on Attorney 427 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: General Bondi's desk. Is that letter public? Yes, Margaret, this 428 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: is an astonishing story. It's a great credit to you 429 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: that you would put in this kind of time and 430 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: that you bring your knowledge to bear. And I want 431 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: to thank you for joining me. Your new book, Blowback 432 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere, and 433 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: it certainly deserves to be a bestseller. 434 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 3: Thank you, mister Speaker, and honor to be with you. 435 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Margaret Roberts, you can get 436 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: a link to buy her new book, Blowback. Oklahoma City 437 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: and the Untold story of the FBI's box sting operation 438 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. News World 439 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: is produced by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 440 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 441 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley Special 442 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: thanks to the team of Gingrish three sixty. If you've 443 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 444 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 445 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 446 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newsworld can sign up for my 447 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: three freeweekly columns at gingrishree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 448 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: I have newt Gingrich. This is newts World.