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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie

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Speaker 1: missing day thirty seven. This as investigators say they are

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Speaker 1: closing in on a breakthrough in the search for Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 1: A vandalized utility box near her home now taking center stage,

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Speaker 1: as tag tattoo and graffiti specialists way in on the

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Speaker 1: search for the kidnapper. And also all that about data

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Speaker 1: dumps forget it now, it's all on Google and Apple

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Speaker 1: to save the day. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. This

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Speaker 1: is a plea from the public to bring Nancy Guthrie home.

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Speaker 1: They desperately want their mother home. Day thirty seven, a

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Speaker 1: day none of us thought would happen. So many legal eagles,

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Speaker 1: like myself, believe this case would be solved in Nancy

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Speaker 1: Guthrie would behind by day thirty seven. We understand that

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Speaker 1: investigators are stating that they are quote coming close to

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Speaker 1: a breakthrough as a vandalized utility box takes center stage

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Speaker 1: and something called tag tattoo and graffiti specialists coming into play.

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Speaker 1: What can Google and Apple do for the Guthrie family?

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Speaker 1: Now straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the vandalized utility box. What happened Nancy.

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Speaker 2: This was discovered, as you see, this just near Nancy

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Speaker 2: Guthrie's home and it happened around the time that she

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Speaker 2: went missing. This is the box. It's in her neighborhood

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Speaker 2: and it's very close by. You can see the vandalism.

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Speaker 2: You can see it was hacked, it was torn up,

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Speaker 2: and this is something that doesn't occur naturally. This is

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Speaker 2: somebody intentionally, willfully did something to this box and could

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Speaker 2: have caused major damage to those in the neighborhood with

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Speaker 2: regard to their cameras on their home for security, their

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Speaker 2: cell phones, and their WiFi. This box could damage everything.

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Speaker 1: Well, you got to wonder. Let's just make a logical

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Speaker 1: conclusion here. This is from our friends at WC Inc.

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Speaker 1: By the way, when was it vandalized? Why is their

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Speaker 1: special interest now? How close is it to Nancy Guthries' home?

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Speaker 1: Straight out to James Bass joining us digital friendsic analyst

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Speaker 1: expert witness with Evidence Solutions, Inc. There in Tucson. James Bass,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. James. A lot

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Speaker 1: has been made of a so called signal jammer, a

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Speaker 1: signal jammer that many people believe was use. Let's see

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Speaker 1: a shot of the protruding antenna from the porch guy's

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Speaker 1: pop please control room, James. Much has been made about

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Speaker 1: was a signal jammer used because neighbors are being questioned

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Speaker 1: by the FBI too, in particular near her home, about

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Speaker 1: a interruption, a disruption in their WiFi service the night

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Speaker 1: Nancy goes missing. What if the utility box was the

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Speaker 1: cause for the blackout and what was protruding from the

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Speaker 1: porch guy's pocket actually was a walk you talk? You

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Speaker 1: to an accomplice? Now hold it. You're the digital expert,

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Speaker 1: not me. Let me try to phrase this in the

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Speaker 1: proper vernacular. Would the utility box having been attacked throw

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Speaker 1: out Wi Fi to Nancy and her neighbors? And can

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Speaker 1: we prove that or deduce that from the fact that

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Speaker 1: the neighbors had the blackout? And the guy walks up

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Speaker 1: apparently let's see him walk up and he's like, whoa

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Speaker 1: the camera working? What it's like he didn't expect the

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Speaker 1: camera to be working? And then he has to backtrack

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Speaker 1: and try to cover it. He's like, what, maybe I

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Speaker 1: can beat it to death, then he tries to cover

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Speaker 1: it with foliage. Did he blow out the utility box

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Speaker 1: and then got the big surprise when maybe he saw

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Speaker 1: the camera blinking or the lens moving, or some acknowledgment

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Speaker 1: of motion sensor working. What do you think, James Bass? Possible?

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Speaker 1: Not possible as presented.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe it's possible. The utility box that was

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Speaker 3: shown appears to be some sort of telephone signal box

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Speaker 3: switching box that would carry a telephone signal, not necessarily

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Speaker 3: your fiber optic or WiFi.

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Speaker 1: Or okay, hold on just a second, Bass, look at

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Speaker 1: this picture. Let me see all those wires from our

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Speaker 1: friends at WC and see. How can you look at

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Speaker 1: that and tell me what kind of wire it is?

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Speaker 1: They all look the same to me. How do you

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Speaker 1: know that's a phone wire?

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Speaker 3: Just pretty much based on the setup and the connections

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Speaker 3: you're looking at what is typical for a telephone, landline

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Speaker 3: wiring box or other data infrastructure. If it had been

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Speaker 3: destroyed or in some way altered, the connection would not

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Speaker 3: have been intermittent. It would have been out completely. If

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Speaker 3: you sever a fib or optic cable, there's no plugging

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Speaker 3: it back in once it's broken, it's broken until it's repaired,

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Speaker 3: and there would have been a consistent outage that we

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Speaker 3: would have known about.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that just made a lot of sense if in

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Speaker 1: fact those are phone wires. And I'm not altogether convinced

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Speaker 1: that you can look at them from two thousand miles

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Speaker 1: away and tell me they're a phone wire. Convince me

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Speaker 1: that's a phone wire.

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Speaker 3: Just looking at the subs, like I say, it's not

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Speaker 3: a good picture that we There's nothing that's been released

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Speaker 3: about the particular infrastructure that would be consistent with a

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Speaker 3: with a telephone service junction box. There's there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of wires involved in.

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Speaker 1: Well, why are they calling it a utility box as

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Speaker 1: opposed to a phone box or is it all.

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Speaker 3: One in the same the telephone utilities?

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Speaker 1: Thank you, James Bath. They did not teach this in

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Speaker 1: law school. This is from our friends at wc NC. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's another issue straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons. Joining US

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Speaker 1: Director Operations USP, a nationwide security he leads an entire

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Speaker 1: team of people dedicated to finding missing people all around

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Speaker 1: the world. Former marine Iraqi war That says it all. Fitzgibbons.

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Speaker 1: Another thing, what would be the motive for cracking open

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Speaker 1: a utility box like that. There's nothing to steal, or

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Speaker 1: is there? I mean you'd wonder why people would go

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Speaker 1: on to abandoned houses. There's nothing to steal, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: they're in there getting copper wiring, which is very expensive.

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Speaker 1: So what would be in a utility box to steal?

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Speaker 1: Why crack it open unless you're trying to affect the

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Speaker 1: Wi Fi or the phone service in the area, As.

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Speaker 4: James Bass just aptly pointed out, if that line were

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Speaker 4: cutting the Wi Fi the data coming in from.

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Speaker 5: The street to the house, there would be a persistent outage.

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Speaker 4: This would have been something that would have a utility

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Speaker 4: team would have had to come out and repair. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so what we're looking at here is likely some kind

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Speaker 4: of vandalism that took place with no specific motive related

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Speaker 4: to the Nancy Guthrie abduction.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me follow through with that. Brian Fitzgibbons,

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Speaker 1: you said no specific motive related to Nancy Guthrie's investigation.

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Speaker 1: What about any motive at all? What's the motive for

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Speaker 1: cracking it open?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean this does look like a telephone box, just

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Speaker 4: the size of those, you know, wires and cables in there.

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Speaker 5: Hey, could the motive be to take out phone service?

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Speaker 4: You know that's certainly not going to do anything to

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Speaker 4: disrupt internet or sell service.

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Speaker 5: In twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 4: I can't imagine that that's a high value target in

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Speaker 4: relation to an abduction.

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Speaker 1: Case unless someone tried to. Hey, guys, big thank you

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Speaker 1: to WC and C for that video. Unless this Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Guys, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of

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Speaker 1: a hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But

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Speaker 1: for our purposes, he's a forensics expert and a death

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Speaker 1: investigator with literally thousands of death scene investigations under his belt.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Unless I mean there's nothing to steal, why

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Speaker 1: crack it open? So let's think this through. Could the

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Speaker 1: prop have thought it would disrupt the Wi fi and

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Speaker 1: then have to back up with a Wi Fi Because

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Speaker 1: we know there was a disruption around the time she

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Speaker 1: goes missing, and you know one house, m two houses coincidence,

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Speaker 1: three houses pattern, so we know something was going on

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Speaker 1: with the Wi Fi. We know it was at the

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Speaker 1: time Nancy was kidnapped from her home. Is it possible

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Speaker 1: the perp vandalized that in an attempt to disrupt Wi

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Speaker 1: Fi and then backed it up with a jammer? And

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Speaker 1: if so, what forensic evidence could be obtained from the

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Speaker 1: box or maybe even the wires inside. That's going to

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Speaker 1: be tough, Yeah, it would be.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: One of the interesting things about that box the Nancy

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Speaker 6: is that when you're working a scene have to assess

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Speaker 6: the reality of the evidence also status of the is

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Speaker 6: that box everybody's saying, well, it could have proclimated the

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Speaker 6: time in which Missus Guthrie went missing. I want to

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Speaker 6: know more information about the physical standing of the box

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Speaker 6: and what I mean by that, Are there any prime

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Speaker 6: marks on that box that might indicate some type of

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Speaker 6: particular tool that was used to open it? And also

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Speaker 6: one of the things that we see when we work

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Speaker 6: cases involving tool marks to kind of age age of

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Speaker 6: break in is we'll look for like oxidation or rust

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Speaker 6: that shows up on particular areas, like how long has

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Speaker 6: this thing been pride open? And also going back to

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Speaker 6: whoever it administrates that box, you know, like whether it's

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Speaker 6: a phone company or local utility company, when was the

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Speaker 6: last time they made a pass around that box? Who

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Speaker 6: made notes about that box? And then when you get

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Speaker 6: into the interior of the thing, it looks like just

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Speaker 6: a mass of like wires going everywhere, disordered multicolored spaghetti

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Speaker 6: if you will. Does somebody actually go in there with

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Speaker 6: snips and try to cut wires? Again? Another interest, interesting

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Speaker 6: area relative to tool marks and were they specifically targeting anything

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Speaker 6: in there? And that goes to the mind of the person.

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Speaker 6: What kind of knowledge or level of knowledge did they

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Speaker 6: have about this? One more thing, do they have anybody

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Speaker 6: in this area that the police are familiar with that

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Speaker 6: goes around burglarizing areas and they attack these kind of boxes.

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Speaker 6: Do you have anybody that has a certain set of

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Speaker 6: burglary tools that might engage in this behavior. So there's

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Speaker 6: a lot considered just with the box itself.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: Another thing regarding motive, Joe Scott Morgan, why does anybody

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Speaker 1: do anything? I mean, in my mind, I would look

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Speaker 1: for a logical motive. You go into a home to steal, rape,

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Speaker 1: rob that's a reason for breaking in, not a legal reason,

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Speaker 1: but a reason. Why would somebody crack open a utility

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Speaker 1: box for what? There's nothing to steal. I guess the

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Speaker 1: same reason people frow stones and knockout street lights or

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Speaker 1: knockdown stop signs. I guess for the fun of it.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand that motivation. So that's not a motive,

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Speaker 1: a typical motive that we would look for under the law.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's like joy writing just for the

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Speaker 1: hell of it. I like what you just said about

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Speaker 1: had other utility boxes been attacked regarding getting fingerprints from this,

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Speaker 1: regarding your thought, were any of the wires severed or cut,

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Speaker 1: which really would indicate someone trying to disrupt Wi Fi

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Speaker 1: or sell service? How would you look for that in

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Speaker 1: that big tangle of cords, And how can you get

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Speaker 1: prints on the outside of the box and more specifically

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Speaker 1: on the inside of the box.

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Speaker 6: It would be very difficult. Just let me give you

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Speaker 6: an idea. If people at home will think about, say

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Speaker 6: you're you're holding a large screw driver in your right hand, okay,

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Speaker 6: and you want to pop open this box, and you're

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Speaker 6: not wearing gloves. One of the things that you would

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Speaker 6: do is say you would take like your left hand

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Speaker 6: stick stick the screw the screwdriver into into the panel

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Speaker 6: and try to pry it open. And one things people

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Speaker 6: don't think about perpetrators in particular. We have all the

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Speaker 6: time in the world to examine these areas. Perpetrators trying

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Speaker 6: to go go go, go go go. As they're trying

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Speaker 6: to leverage this thing to pop it. They're touching and

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Speaker 6: contacting these areas. Only problem with that is that the

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Speaker 6: X area of this thing is not very well protected,

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Speaker 6: so fingerprints might degrade in this area depended upon the

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Speaker 6: amount of time they've been there.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 6: We work on what are called fatty lipids that transfer

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Speaker 6: the friction ridge imprints and give us a negative image

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Speaker 6: of the imprint or the fingerprint on the surface there.

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Speaker 6: So and inside that tangle. Nancy, good luck with all

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Speaker 6: of that. I think that it would be very, very

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Speaker 6: difficult to raise a print in that area. I'd be

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Speaker 6: more interested probably in tool marks on any of those areas,

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Speaker 6: and have they been clipped away with some kind of

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Speaker 6: specific tool.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Jackie here in the studio just had a great idea.

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Speaker 1: We're all trying to figure out what would be a motive.

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Speaker 1: She says that there are copper wires in the utility boxes.

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Speaker 1: That's money. That's a lot of money. People vandalize all

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Speaker 1: the time to get copper. That said, investigators stating that

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Speaker 1: tonight they are very close, as they say, to a breakthrough.

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Speaker 1: What breakthrough, that's all we're learning does have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with this utility box crime stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: speaking of the jamming, a lot has developed over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to James Bass. James, I'm really overwhelmed with

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Speaker 1: your analysis regarding Google and Apple. I kept saying, day one,

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Speaker 1: get a data dump. Get a data dump, which would

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Speaker 1: be the fi's cellular analysis survey team cast getting all

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Speaker 1: the information of cell phones, or not just cell phones,

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Speaker 1: nav systems, you connects in cars, iPads that may be

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Speaker 1: in the car that are trying to connect any device

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Speaker 1: while it may not be hooked in to Wi Fi

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Speaker 1: that has quote touching Wi Fi as it goes by,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're trying to connect. Let's just say

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Speaker 1: at the airport, all of these different Wi Fi, you

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Speaker 1: see them and you may try to connect to them.

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Speaker 1: If you do connect, you touch. So there's not just that,

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Speaker 1: But you're saying Google and Apple may very well save

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Speaker 1: the date. Google's already saved the date once by their

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Speaker 1: scratching technique where they go from day ten to nine,

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Speaker 1: to eight to seven to six five they find the

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Speaker 1: porch guy. It's very very delicate because you don't want

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Speaker 1: to erase day five when you're scratching off day six.

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Speaker 1: That said, you believe Google and or Apple can help

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Speaker 1: in a very very different way. Try to dummy down

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Speaker 1: for me and explain it again, they didn't teach this

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Speaker 1: in law school.

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Speaker 3: When you can get a hold of the cell tower

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Speaker 3: dumps that everybody is familiar with, that's going to give

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Speaker 3: you a list of all the devices that have connected

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Speaker 3: or touched that tower essentially, and once you establish a

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Speaker 3: pattern and you narrow down your focus, you're able to

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Speaker 3: identify one, two or three specific devices with that, then

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Speaker 3: you're going to try to identify this person a little

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Speaker 3: bit further. Once you can do that, you can go

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Speaker 3: to Google and ask for what's commonly referred to as

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Speaker 3: a Google takeout a GTO, and it's information that Google

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Speaker 3: collects about you as a user that's freely available to anyone.

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Speaker 3: You can download drown data and see what's there, But

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Speaker 3: of particular interest would be the location data. As part

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Speaker 3: of their service, they offer Google Maps and location services,

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Speaker 3: and in the background, they're going to drop a location

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Speaker 3: pen sometimes every five to thirty seconds.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean in the background.

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Speaker 3: You it's not something you're asking it to do. It's

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Speaker 3: something that's done completely in the background. The user never

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Speaker 3: sees it, and most users don't even know that it's happening.

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Speaker 3: But that data is collected and it's retained forever. Until

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Speaker 3: you go in and tell them to delete that information,

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Speaker 3: it will forever reside.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you totally freaked me out when you told me

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Speaker 1: this example. James Guys James Bass is a digital forensic

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Speaker 1: analyst and expert witness with Evidence Solutions, Inc. There in Tucson.

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Speaker 1: When you said that, for instance, Google and Apple are

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Speaker 1: tracking me to the extent or all of us. If

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Speaker 1: you park your car and walk into Walmart, they go, oh,

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Speaker 1: she parked your car. Explain that. When you told me

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Speaker 1: the first time, I was too busy scribbling notes to

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Speaker 1: even understand what you're saying. And how can this help

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Speaker 1: me find the kidnapped.

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Speaker 3: With the background location services. I'll give you a for instance,

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Speaker 3: I was at a task force doing some counter terrorism work,

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Speaker 3: also being closed nondescript building. It was a top secret

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Speaker 3: sci skiff a building you can talk about on secret information.

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Speaker 3: And the facility we were at was not advertised. There's

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Speaker 3: no sign its existence was top secret. But because I

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Speaker 3: had a phone years later, I was able to go

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Speaker 3: back and tell you every day when I left my house,

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Speaker 3: the route I took to get to work, where I

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Speaker 3: parked my car, and where I left my phone, And

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Speaker 3: that was done completely in the background, without the input

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Speaker 3: or user.

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Speaker 1: Of the device, James, including the top secret location right

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Speaker 1: there in the parking lot front door of the building. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess the Chinese know that now, thanks for blurting

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Speaker 1: it out. That said, what if the pump hass the.

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Speaker 3: Phone turned off, Well, if the device is turned off,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to get anything from it. If the

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Speaker 3: device was on but not being used, you know, if

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Speaker 3: you had the device powered on, threw it into the

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Speaker 3: floor of the car or put it in his armrest

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Speaker 3: and was driving, then you would If you can identify

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Speaker 3: the device, and if they were using the Google Location services,

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Speaker 3: if that was available and enabled, then you're gonna be

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Speaker 3: able to go back. Once you identify them, send a

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Speaker 3: search warrant to Google for that information, and you'll see

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Speaker 3: their entire life, everywhere they park, where they live, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you're driving walking, they make these assumptions and they

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Speaker 3: use is made in the background for targeted advertisements to

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Speaker 3: send you to what are considered your bylocations. So that's

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Speaker 3: what it's used for. But on the investigative side, we

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Speaker 3: can timeline and geolocate somebody to within a three to

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Speaker 3: ten meters radius with a sub second timestamp, we can

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Speaker 3: put you there to the millisecond at a particular time

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Speaker 3: and day.

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Speaker 1: What are the phones in airplane mode?

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, if it's an airplane mode, it's going to disable

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Speaker 3: all of the antennas. It's supposed to disable your GPS,

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Speaker 3: anything that can transmit or receive, it's supposed to disable that.

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Speaker 3: Essentially an airplane mode. Yourself is a music player.

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Speaker 1: What if the parts we're using your burner phone. I

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Speaker 1: know all these questions are elementary to you, like they're

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Speaker 1: coming from a fifth grader, But again they did not

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Speaker 1: teach us at law school. What if the prop had

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Speaker 1: a burner phone, the burner phone shows up on the

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Speaker 1: data top, then what do we do with that?

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Speaker 3: A burner phone, as people believe to exist, really is

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Speaker 3: not the same thing. Most people in the early part

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Speaker 3: of cellular phones you could go get a completely anonymous

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Speaker 3: phone and use it and be fine. Nowadays nothing's really anonymous.

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Speaker 3: An Android or an Apple phone require an email to

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Speaker 3: register and use their services. If you're getting a prepaid phone,

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Speaker 3: you have to pay with a credit card which is

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Speaker 3: attached to a bank. There's all of these safeguards that

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Speaker 3: are put in place that hinder being anonymous.

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Speaker 1: Will Google put up a fight to give this tracking information?

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Speaker 3: Not with the search war? Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So what can you tell me about Apple?

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Speaker 1: How could they help Apple?

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Speaker 3: Everyone collects the same information. Apple spends a little bit

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Speaker 3: more time saving it on your phone so that they

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Speaker 3: don't have to be responsible for turning it over anybody.

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Speaker 3: But they also save your routes and your maps and

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Speaker 3: your map searches. So if you enable it, even if

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Speaker 3: you have an iPhone, if you're using Google Android, you

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Speaker 3: know their maps or location services. If you download that app,

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Speaker 3: then it's still going to be saved with Google. It's

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Speaker 3: right now. Google's mapping service is one of the primary

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Speaker 3: ones everyone uses, and I would strongly suggest they go

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Speaker 3: after this information once identify the person.

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Speaker 1: Well, James, let me ask you this, what can't Apple

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Speaker 1: give me that Google cannot give me nothing.

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Speaker 3: Nothing that they're all collecting. In general, they collect the

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Speaker 3: same data Google, they save more. They focus a little bit,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry Google. Apple focuses a little bit more on

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Speaker 3: anonymity and keeping your data on your device. Book Once again,

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Speaker 3: once you identify that person obtaining the device is you

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Speaker 3: know it's going to be your next step, get the

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Speaker 3: phone and then get the data done.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Joseph got Morgan, Professor forensics and death investigator.

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Speaker 1: What do you believe? I mean, it's very cryptic that

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Speaker 1: one of the investigators inside the investigation stated that they

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Speaker 1: are close to a breakthrough. I mean it's got to

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Speaker 1: be digital. I think it's digital. It could be because

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Speaker 1: of that mixed DNA that was found in the home.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they're getting closer to that. It's called stranger DNA.

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Speaker 1: It's not anybody connected to her, related to her that

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Speaker 1: works for her is typically in her home. It's digital,

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Speaker 1: it's DNA. Or maybe it's good old fashioned police work

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Speaker 1: like hey my neighbor blah blah blah, and a some

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Speaker 1: type of eyewitnesses come forward. I don't know what it is,

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Speaker 1: but if you were on this team, what do you believe?

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Speaker 1: They should be doing right now. In addition to what

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Speaker 1: Bass just said, getting about three inches up Google and

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Speaker 1: Apple's tailpipe, I.

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Speaker 6: Could listen to bass talk all day long while it

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Speaker 6: really breaks it down now in simple terms, I love that.

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Speaker 6: As far as from an investigative perspective, I think they've

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Speaker 6: been trying to unspool this DNA information for some time.

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Speaker 6: We've gotten little bits that have come out about the

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Speaker 6: mixture and about it seems as though that's coming to

396
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Speaker 6: a dead end. Of course, we don't know what else

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Speaker 6: they have at this point in time. However, I have

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Speaker 6: to say, Nancy, as we stand right now, I would

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Speaker 6: be leaning probably into the digital data that we're talking about,

400
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Speaker 6: because no one travels this world without one of these

401
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 6: damn millstones that we have around our electronic neck, you know,

402
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Speaker 6: with these phones, and so at some point in time,

403
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 6: they're going to have tagged these people or tag somebody

404
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 6: in that area. I think that they're doing a deeper dive.

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Speaker 1: They're calling in PA, please, I agree with you. But

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Speaker 1: the possibility of a walk you talkie suggests to me

407
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Speaker 1: that they turn their phones off. But let's just pretend.

408
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend somebody had a cell phone on. Somebody

409
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: had a you Connect. I don't know what you drive,

410
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, but our beat up minivan has you Connect

411
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: in it, so I guess that would work. A NAV

412
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: system would work. You just heard Best talking about the

413
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Speaker 1: location data. It could be a number of things, not

414
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Speaker 1: a walkie talkie. That will not work unless it's somehow

415
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: hooked into a cell phone. Some of them are. But

416
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: that suggests a cell phone was turned off. So let's

417
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Speaker 1: pretend the cell phone was turned off. Let's go with that.

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Speaker 1: What avenue would you travel now if the cell phone

419
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Speaker 1: had been turned off? Forget all data.

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Speaker 6: Well, what I'm thinking about right now, and I've been

421
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 6: thinking about it for some time, it's relative to any

422
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 6: kind of assets that the police have in this area,

423
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 6: all the locals, anybody that's involved in any kind of

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00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 6: nefarious activity, relative to crimes against persons. All right, And

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Speaker 6: when I say crimes against persons, I'm not talking about

426
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 6: regular old burglary. I'm talking about people that do strong

427
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 6: arm robberies. They're not afraid to go into homes, get

428
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Speaker 6: into people's spaces. Because right now, this is going to

429
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 6: be a matter of, like you said, good old fashioned

430
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Speaker 6: police work, where they're putting pressure points along the way,

431
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Speaker 6: and also couple that with any potential that this reward

432
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Speaker 6: money is going to be raised. What they're trying to do, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: I think, is lean on every potential lead that they

434
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 6: have or person that might roll over on somebody out there,

435
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 6: because they've turned the pressure up significantly. And here's the

436
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 6: other thing, Nancy. You know, we hear a lot about PEMA.

437
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 6: We don't hear a lot about the FEDS. And as

438
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 6: you well know, the FEDS are notorious for keeping their

439
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 6: mouths shut. And there's no telling what kind of assets

440
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 6: they're bringing to bear because they have so much in

441
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 6: their infrastructure that they can use everything from electronics to

442
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 6: gain information, Nancy, that they can press, press, press, and

443
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 6: I think that that's probably the angle they're working right now.

444
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: Scott, you said, look at the usual suspects in the area,

445
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: but that have robbed or burgled before. But there is

446
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: no question that the mo of a robber or a

447
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: burglar is not to take an eighty four year old

448
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: woman out and take them out for a drive. You

449
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: can't walk past fifty yards. This is absolutely a kidnap.

450
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: And that's a whole nother mindset from a robber or

451
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: a burglar. And I mean they had to know she

452
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: was home or somebody was someone they went in at

453
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the morning, of course somebody is home,

454
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: So that takes it out of the robbery and burglary

455
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: realm from me that said, what about it to you, Fitzgibbons,

456
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: What do you believe they should be doing right now?

457
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 5: Yeah?

458
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 4: I agree with everything that Joe Scott and James Bass

459
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 4: just said.

460
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 5: And I want to add, Okay.

461
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: Fitz Gibbons. Fitz Gibbons, that doesn't work on crime stories.

462
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: You can't just say what he said.

463
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: No, Well, I want to add one piece about what

464
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 4: they can be looking into, which is the tattoo on

465
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: the perpetrator's arm. And this is something that's been widely

466
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 4: talked about, but we haven't talked much about the capabilities

467
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 4: that law enforcement has to generate leads off of that.

468
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 4: The FBI has a tattoo and graffiti Analysis team that

469
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: specializes in analyzing images of tattoos, graffiti symbols, hand signs,

470
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: anything remotely related to organized crime, extremist groups, and the like.

471
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: And they've got access to millions upon millions of photos

472
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: from arrests and bookings all across the country. And even

473
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 4: though we have a limited look at the tattoo itself

474
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 4: from that ring camp video, we do have the height

475
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: of the suspect, the location of the tattoo, and the

476
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 4: location of the individual himself, so that there is enough

477
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 4: to at least assist and provide some intelligence into the search.

478
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: It's called TAG TAG Tattoo and Graffiti Team. Tattoo and

479
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: Graffiti Team operates actually within cryptanalysis and racketeering records. It's

480
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: there in Quantico at the FBI Lab and it's a

481
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: team of cryptanalysts, the only one of its kind in

482
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: the US, helping law enforcement. Now, this is what we

483
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: know about TAG. Experienced researchers and they have access to

484
00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: an incredible library of resources, thousands of distinct and photographs

485
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: of tattoo and graffiti. For instance, what you see on

486
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: the neck to the left, I've covered the face is

487
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: a traditional Chinese character for wind, and it is used

488
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: quite often. If that had appeared, that would be tracked down.

489
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: Let's see the next round offered by TAG from Border Patrol.

490
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Take a look at this. What you're seeing here is

491
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: a series a offering of Santa Ria on the left,

492
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: see that that was in Pittsburgh and that was deciphered

493
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: by TAG. Then to the top right, that is a

494
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: tattoo relating to MS thirteen affiliation. On the bottom left

495
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: you see the tree top Peru blood gang affiliation and

496
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: at the bottom right seat and a cult drawing of

497
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: a tattoo. Now these are graffiti analysis from the National

498
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: Joint Terrorism Task Force. Now what TAG does is they

499
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: look at these including tattoos, and they can trace them. Tattoos, symbols,

500
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: other images can reveal so many significant details about a crime,

501
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: a perp, and they're easy to overlook if they are

502
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: not immediately identifiable. So how do you go about Brian

503
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: Fitzgibbons is joining us one of his expertise, how do

504
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: you go about enlarging what we're seeing on his wrist

505
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: and figuring out what portion of a much larger tattoo

506
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: it is in identifying it definitely TAG for sure. What

507
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: else how do they do it?

508
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's where the difficulty is going to come in,

509
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: Right that we only have a small portion of the

510
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 4: tattoo visible and the resolution is not so high, So

511
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: there's going to be some kind of AI assisted enhancement

512
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: done to this. And I want to add one thing

513
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: that the FBI, through their next generation identification system, is

514
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: moving towards a tattooed database that's image searchable as opposed

515
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: to the tech searchable format that exists within the NCIC

516
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: database where a lot of this type of information is

517
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: stored on bookings and arrests. So they've been developing that

518
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 4: system over a course of a number of years. So

519
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 4: I think they'll have a very good swath of millions

520
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 4: of tattoo photos to analyze this against.

521
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: Well, there is the entire database, but also I want

522
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: you to look at one more series what you were

523
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: saying here, This is from our friends at US Customs

524
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: and Border Protection. Now this was submitted to them, and

525
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: they identified a scorpion tattoo and General Francisco Villa aka

526
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: Pancho Villa, and he is found on a number of tattoos.

527
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: So you're going to have to call on these experts

528
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: to make sense of the tattoo and then track where

529
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: it came from. Believe it or not, not every tattoo

530
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: parlor will give every tattoo that's heard of. Certain parlors,

531
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: certain tattoo artists specialize in certain tattoos, and believe me,

532
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: the FBI is all over it. We may not be

533
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: able to make out this symbol, but they will and

534
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: tonight a theory has seemingly taken over the Internet, and

535
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: it is that a Chilean theft gang is responsible for

536
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping. Okay to you, Dave Matt Crime Stories

537
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: investigating reporter. There was Travis Kelcey, Patrick Mahome, Bobby Portas,

538
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow and other high profile athletes that reportedly were burgled.

539
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: It's only a robbery if you take it from the

540
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: person burglary as you take it from the structure. Those

541
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: cases are very different. I don't recall anyone kidnapped in

542
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: those cases there was. What can you tell me about this.

543
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: Theory, Well, I can tell you that the one consistent

544
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: feature to the Chilean you know robbery crew is that

545
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 2: they apparently just targeted athletes, high profile, rich athletes that

546
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: they the Chilean robbery group knew when the guy when

547
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: they were out of town because they knew where they

548
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: were playing their games and things like that. So the

549
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: homes were targeted at those times when the teams were

550
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: playing away. I don't know how that fits into an

551
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: eighty four year old woman who can't walk more than

552
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: fifty feet. Also, it's not we have no proof that

553
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: this was a robbery, you know, that was something that

554
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 2: was brought up, a possible foiled robbery or something along

555
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: those lines. But Nancy, there is no report of any

556
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: front Guthrie's home. There's no report of a robbery. We

557
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: have heard that idea of a bungled robbery, but that's

558
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 2: just not what seems to be the case at all.

559
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: It appears that this was a targeted kidnapping, not a

560
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: robbery gone bad. So the Chilean idea that angle really

561
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: is focused on the high profile nature of the individual. Well,

562
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie is only high profile because of her daughter

563
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: in that regard, So I'm not really sure that the

564
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: Chilean robbery crew holds a lot of water.

565
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: Just my thought.

566
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace James Bass it's the South

567
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 1: American Theft Group sat G, and that includes chile nationals.

568
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: They've been linked to millions of dollars of stolen goods

569
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: from wealthy rich US homes. They conduct extensive surveillance that's

570
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: in common with this. They use jammers, which that's really

571
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: old news. Jammers have been used by robbing cruise in

572
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: LA for a really long time. But the Guthries home location,

573
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home is not like a multimillionaire athlete's mansion.

574
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: And I'm just very curious. In all of those cases,

575
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 1: no one was home and it was actually a robbery.

576
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: None of those gang members wanted to encounter a living

577
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: person in the home, So what do you make of it?

578
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: I would have to agree with the opinion that these

579
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: are probably not related. I'm basing that on the fact,

580
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 3: just my past criminal investigation experience. You don't want to

581
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: encounter someone in a robbery. The surveillance that they would

582
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: have conducted prior to, if it had been consistent with

583
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: the Chilean gang, would have identified someone in the home.

584
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 3: That would have been the only ahead of time. It

585
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 3: just it really does not fit what you would expect

586
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 3: to see.

587
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 4: What about if it's GIBBN spot on and you know

588
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 4: these crews, It's not just limited to Chilean robbery crews

589
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 4: all across.

590
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 5: The United States.

591
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 4: This is something that's widely investigated by law enforcement and

592
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 4: there are certainly patterns to it. They utilize, you know,

593
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 4: very integrated surveillance techniques, disguise to go up to do

594
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 4: mimic deliveries, to check on patterns, build that past her

595
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 4: life at that household before they make their hit. So

596
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 4: you know, to think that this took place at a

597
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 4: time when the burglar was sure that Nancy got through

598
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 4: would be home certainly refutes that point.

599
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing. In all of those cases,

600
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: items were taken, not a little old lady items, very

601
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: expensive items were actually taken from the residence that did

602
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: not happen here, Dave Matt. In fact, I haven't heard

603
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: of a single thing taken from the home and a

604
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: lot of and I saw someone write this on x

605
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: aka Twitter, asking had any of Nancy Guthrie's jewelry been taken?

606
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Because in a lot of the photos we see her

607
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: with Savannah, she's wearing some beautiful jewelry. I think she

608
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: was wearing it in the video of her at that

609
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant. Let's pull that up. When Savannah made an

610
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: Arizona homecoming that said, I haven't heard a word about

611
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: missing jewelry. Remember how a Groton watch took center stage

612
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: in the Lacy Peterson investigation, and then a similar watch

613
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: was pawned, not the watch, but a similar watch. We

614
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: haven't heard anything about stolen jewelry or pawn shop searches.

615
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it suggests to me nothing was taken.

616
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 5: Now.

617
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: The only thing we've even seen close to that, Nancy,

618
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: is last week when we had the FEDS on the

619
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: scene going into the home. You remember when they parked

620
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: the suv in the garage, you shut the door. There

621
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: were two people later that day that were using a

622
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: metal detector along the driveway and searching in there, had

623
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: like a garden spade and the metal detector looking for

624
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: something maybe, but no no report of anything stolen by

625
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: law enforcement at this point. Now, whether there's something missing

626
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: they're not talking about. I mean that could be, but

627
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 2: no men of robbery at all.

628
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: Here. She is wearing a pendant, bracelets, earrings, Nothing said

629
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: about missing jewelry. Another theory Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator,

630
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: that's from our friends at today. A lot of stated

631
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: has been stated about missus Guthrie suffering a heart attack.

632
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: Explain your analysis of that theory.

633
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I think that there's a sleep doc

634
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 6: that a guy that deals with people that suffer from

635
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 6: sleep apnea. This idea of the sudden shock of being

636
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 6: awakened in the middle of the night, And you know,

637
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 6: it gave me pause to think about a comment that

638
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 6: you'd made earlier, Nancy, about you know, they didn't go

639
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 6: in with the intention of stealing, but yet we have

640
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 6: missus Guthrie that's missing. And not to put words in

641
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 6: your mouth, but your feeling is that they went there

642
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 6: with a specific content to remove her. What if they

643
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 6: went in and she did have a medical event and

644
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 6: they panicked and they removed her from the home for

645
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 6: whatever reason, could a heart attack fit into into that?

646
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 6: And listen, she's she's certainly somebody's candidate for that. We

647
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 6: know she's on blood dinner, she's hypertensive, she's got a

648
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 6: pacemaker that regulates the rhythm of her heart. She's in

649
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 6: fragile health, all right. And there are much more robust

650
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 6: people out there that would knuckle under in circumstances like this.

651
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 6: So is that a possibility, Well, yeah, I mean it's

652
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 6: a possibility. I mean, we already know something about her

653
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 6: relative to she's had blood that has been deposited outside

654
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 6: of that home that can in fact be tied back

655
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 6: to her, and I have my own thoughts about the

656
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,479
Speaker 6: nature of that deposition, and you know I've thought about that,

657
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 6: you know, extensively. But whether or not she had a

658
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 6: heart attack, that's it's almost impossible for anyone to make

659
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 6: that kind of diagnosis at this point in time. Hopefully

660
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 6: we won't have to make that diagnosis. Hopefully we'll be

661
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 6: able to find her alive and say, hey.

662
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: Jo Scott, look at this. You know, James Bass and

663
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: I were talking earlier. James, what was your analysis? You

664
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: brought up the fact that you do not believe, as

665
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: Joe Scott and I do, that she was standing when

666
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: this blood was left there, when her blood this is

667
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood, based on aspiration. Explain your analysis, James, Now.

668
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 3: I am no, let's better expert. You know on the

669
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: record for that, what we were looking at there was

670
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: just the low velocity their straight down drops that are

671
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: deposited there around the porch. But what we do see

672
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 3: there is that aspiration. Must they have be an aspirated pattern,

673
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: you know, a cough or you know, a sneeze, something

674
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 3: something consistent with that. But to be that small that

675
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: pattern would be in my experience, you would be a

676
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 3: little bit closer to the surface, so possibly kneeling, possibly

677
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 3: being taken out of the house, you know it, I

678
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: believe there's I believe that to be the origin of

679
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 3: the pattern. But that's just my opinion.

680
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: What about it, JESSCTT.

681
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And it's a highly concentrated area. Uh, you know,

682
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 6: and you know, you've been out on plenty of crime scenes, Nancy,

683
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 6: You've seen blood, you know, deposited and a lot of

684
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 6: a lot of different locations over a broad area. This

685
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 6: is a very contained area where you have that. And

686
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 6: the most interesting bit to this is is the fact

687
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 6: that that blood in the larger droplets, it appears, you know,

688
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 6: some of those have white centers to them. That appears

689
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 6: that blood appears to be a rated which means that

690
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 6: it's coming out of the Naso Fair Necks area. So

691
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 6: I don't know if she's been traumatized in the mouth

692
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 6: and knows that sort of thing. I would suspect that

693
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 6: she probably has been because the expiated blood that you

694
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 6: see there, the tiny little satellite drops in that one

695
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 6: cluster that is consistent with her you know, coughing perhaps.

696
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 6: And again I point back, you know, you and I

697
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 6: had this discussion not too long ago about another case

698
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 6: out of Arizona that we had similar blood deposition, and

699
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 6: that was in Travis Alexander. When we take a look

700
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 6: at his vanity in his bedroom or in his bathroom, remember,

701
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 6: after he had been stabbed, he expiated blood onto that surface,

702
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 6: that vanity, you know, where he's probably looking at himself

703
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 6: in the mirror, and that's kind of the similar thing

704
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 6: that you're seeing here. The blood is air rated, it's

705
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 6: being forced out, and you got that one spot right there.

706
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 6: But Nancy then stops, and that's the you know, with

707
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 6: Travis Alexander, we have blood everywhere, but with this it's

708
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 6: in that one focal area right there, and it stops.

709
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 6: And we don't know what happened at that point. Was

710
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 6: she was she in fact covered in some way, picked

711
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 6: up hauled off. I have no idea, and there's no

712
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 6: footprints that we can see, at least in this image

713
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:22,959
Speaker 6: of blood. Either.

714
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Nancy

715
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial one eight hundred two two five

716
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: five three two four repeat eight hundred two two five

717
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: five three two four, or if you wish to remain anonymous,

718
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: five to zero eight eight two seven four sixty three

719
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.

720
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: There is a one point two plus million dollar reward

721
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy. Guthrie asked

722
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: much less. A conviction is not required to get the reward.

723
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,