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Speaker 1: Hey, Max Chafkin here. As you know, I have been

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Speaker 1: working on a new podcast, Everybody's Business, that we've been

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Speaker 1: putting in this feed, dropping episodes every Friday, and I

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Speaker 1: have some difficult news to share with you listeners that's

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Speaker 1: about to change starting this week. You have to go

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Speaker 1: to the Everybody's Business feed to listen to the show.

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Speaker 1: You can find links to that show in the notes,

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Speaker 1: or you can just type it into your podcast app.

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Speaker 1: But as a parting gift, like a little last morsel

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Speaker 1: before we cut you off completely, here is an excerpt

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Speaker 1: from this week's episode. To hear the whole thing again,

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Speaker 1: head over to Everybody's Business and while you're there, subscribe

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Speaker 1: to it, review it. We'd really appreciate your support. So

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Speaker 1: from a coin that's going away, to the new coins,

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Speaker 1: to the future of currency every day, talking of course

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Speaker 1: about cryptocurrency. JD. Vance, Vice President, was in Las Vegas

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday speaking at the Bitcoin Conference. This is the

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Speaker 1: same event that Donald Trump spoke at last year during

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Speaker 1: the political campaign, and this time it was something of

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Speaker 1: a victory lab for the Trump administration, essentially claiming credit

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Speaker 1: for all this support of the crypto industry and asking

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Speaker 1: for more support in the future. I'm here today to

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Speaker 1: say loud and clear with President Trump, crypto finally has

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Speaker 1: a champion and an ally in the White House.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a big crowd. It's like a big

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Speaker 2: convergence if.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who love crypto. As

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Speaker 1: our guest stadium, Stacey Marie Ishmael Bloomberg's executive editor overseeing

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Speaker 1: crypto and fintech can attest. Hey, Stacey Marie, Hello, So

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Speaker 1: there was a lot in this speech from the Vice President,

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Speaker 1: but it's really just kind of the latest in a

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Speaker 1: series of love letters that the Trump administration has written

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Speaker 1: to the crypto industry. Let me just quickly run through

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Speaker 1: a few. You had the Trump and Malania coins, the

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Speaker 1: dinner about those coins, Trump's stable coin, the Crypto Reserve

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Speaker 1: Executive Order, the pardoning of Ross Olbrick, defang any sec.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on. Stacy Marie, how

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Speaker 1: would you characterize the White House's approach to crypto sort

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Speaker 1: of overall of all those things, like what has been

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Speaker 1: most important or most interesting?

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Speaker 3: I would say, from an efficacy perspective, if I think

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Speaker 3: about this as like what's been material to the fortunes

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Speaker 3: of crypto people as opposed to what are they happiest about.

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Speaker 3: Certainly the difference in the regulatory approach under the Trump

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Speaker 3: White House versus the Biden administration is pronounced. You mentioned

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Speaker 3: the moves by the US and Securities Exchange Commission to largely,

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Speaker 3: I would say, drop or pause a majority of the

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Speaker 3: more significant crypto cases that they had been prosecuting. But

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Speaker 3: we're seeing, you know, enthusiastic rhetoric, shall we say, from

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Speaker 3: the regulators about crypto, which is very different from the

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Speaker 3: Gensler era of I think you're all criminals who don't

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Speaker 3: like following rules. Right now, we're hearing, whether it's the

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Speaker 3: SEC or the CFTC, or the IRS or anybody else,

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Speaker 3: essentially encouraging the industry to go out, be innovative, try things.

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Speaker 3: And you know, from a regulatory perspective, our approach is

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Speaker 3: going to be We're not going to get in your

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Speaker 3: way unless something egregious or obviously fraudulent is happening. So,

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Speaker 3: if you are a crypto insider, you currently feel like

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Speaker 3: you know your money was well spent on all of

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Speaker 3: the lobbying efforts and the political donations of the past

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Speaker 3: couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Just to say that perspective of Gary Gensler is saying

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Speaker 1: it's all illegal, like that is the crypto industry's perspective,

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent of crypto industry, not necessarily what you'd

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Speaker 1: hear if you talk to Gary Gensler. I think what

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Speaker 1: he would say is, hey, we just want them to

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Speaker 1: follow the same rules that other finance companies follow. There

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Speaker 1: was a moment where I saw people in the crypto

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Speaker 1: world sort of getting mad at Trump, sort of saying

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Speaker 1: like he is making us look bad, like he's launching coins.

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Speaker 4: When he launched the Trump coin in Milania coin, they

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Speaker 4: were mad at him exactly.

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Speaker 1: They were saying like, we're beyond this. We are we

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Speaker 1: are building a new finance industry. This is like changing

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Speaker 1: global finance whatever kind of high minded slash crazy futuristic

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Speaker 1: ideological thing.

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Speaker 2: He also created the Strategic Crypto Reserve, which seems quite legitimizing.

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Speaker 3: So I think what you're describing one. There's a timeline thing,

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Speaker 3: which is President Trump launched the Presidential Meme coin, I

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Speaker 3: suppose right before he was inaugurated, right, so it was

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Speaker 3: like a couple of days before January twentieth, and then

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Speaker 3: the first Lady launched thrown separately through a different entity.

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Speaker 3: And there was criticism then of the fact that this

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Speaker 3: looked like the kind of thing that people criticized the

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Speaker 3: industry for, But the same people who were criticizing it

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Speaker 3: were very careful not to criticize the president directly. The

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Speaker 3: rhetoric was like, he must be getting bad advice, right,

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Speaker 3: because the industry is in this very interesting place of

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Speaker 3: trying to keep the White House and the President on

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Speaker 3: side while also worrying about whether this is going to

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Speaker 3: affect them negatively or there might be too much competition

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Speaker 3: from the same investor base.

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Speaker 2: But trump coin has not like done that. Well, right,

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Speaker 2: how are these strategies working.

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Speaker 3: One of the first things you learned in crypto that

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Speaker 3: attempting to apply traditional market value analysis to these assets

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Speaker 3: is like the path to pay. So, you know, one

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Speaker 3: way to think about the Trump coin is as a

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Speaker 3: political instrument, a way of declaring kind of allegiance to

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Speaker 3: a president, an ideology, a way of seeing the world.

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Speaker 3: It's very similar to you know, the folks would buy

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Speaker 3: the Trump collectibles, like which featured art of him as

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Speaker 3: super mad or an astronaut.

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Speaker 2: Or or an actual coin or there was an actual Yeah, there's.

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Speaker 3: But there's also the Bibles, there's the sneakers, Right, So

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Speaker 3: a lot of the ways that people are approaching trump

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Speaker 3: coin is this is a way for me to signal

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Speaker 3: fidelity to a particular worldview, as opposed to this is

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Speaker 3: going to be the thing that gets me rich. There

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Speaker 3: are absolutely people who made out like bandits in trading

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Speaker 3: trump coin and other mean coins, because there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of room for that sort of speculative arbitrage and crypto.

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Speaker 3: But in so much of the conversations that we're having

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Speaker 3: with people, they're like, this is how they signal that

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Speaker 3: they are aligned with the presidential cause.

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Speaker 1: There was all this conversation before the Trump presidency about

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Speaker 1: the dangers of crypto, right Gary Gensler to some extent

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Speaker 1: driving that conversation. You also have seen like investors really

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Speaker 1: get screwed by buying into you know, rug polish like schemes,

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Speaker 1: or in putting their money in crypto companies that just

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Speaker 1: haven't been good stewards of that money. You have Trump

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Speaker 1: essentially throwing the gates open, changing the regulator environment, and

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Speaker 1: telling people essentially including Trump and the vice president and

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Speaker 1: Trump's kids, basically bitcoins going to the moon, like how

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Speaker 1: much risk is there, I mean risk to this kind

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Speaker 1: of class of investor, and maybe even broader like economic risk.

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Speaker 3: I think that that philosophy that you're describing is not

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Speaker 3: confined only to crypto.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: We're seeing the rule back of regulations in other parts

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Speaker 3: of the financial markets. Things that affect you know, FinTechs,

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Speaker 3: things that affect payment companies, things that affect whether like

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Speaker 3: Apple and Google are considered to be providing financial services.

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Speaker 3: So to me, the fact that this thing is happening

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Speaker 3: in crypto isn't because crypto is like uniquely special in

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Speaker 3: terms of its regulatory love being success. Is that the

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Speaker 3: White House policy on a lot of these things is

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Speaker 3: you know, a very like individualistic do your own research attitude.

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Speaker 1: I mean, to me, like the stable coin thing is

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Speaker 1: almost scarier than the Trump and Malani coin. Like I

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Speaker 1: feel like we have a framework for understanding that. It's

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Speaker 1: like the sneakers or whatever Trump is on TV with

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Speaker 1: a commemorative plate being like, Hey, this thing might not

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Speaker 1: go up in value, but you sure you're sure want

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Speaker 1: to get Like, I don't know that there are that

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Speaker 1: many people buying trump coin who really see it as

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Speaker 1: like a good investment. Stable Coin has stable in the name,

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Speaker 1: it's also basically like an unregulated bank. It just seems

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Speaker 1: like that is where you could imagine real economic risk.

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Speaker 1: It kind of fits the framework that you're laying out

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Speaker 1: in other parts of the financial system.

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Speaker 2: Can you also just describe, like what is happening with

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Speaker 2: stable coin in a foundational way?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: Stable coins are the things that international financial regulators, especially

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Speaker 3: people who care about stability, worry about the most when

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Speaker 3: it comes to the incursion of crypto and traditional finance.

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Speaker 3: And it's for two reasons. One, as you say, the

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Speaker 3: name gives people the impression that, like, this is a

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Speaker 3: totally chill thing, like it's it's tagged to a different asset.

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Speaker 3: It's fine, And for certain categories of stable coins that's

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Speaker 3: largely true.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's designed to maintain a steady value with something like

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Speaker 3: the dollar or the euro or the yen. And the

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Speaker 3: way that it achieves that for a majority of these

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Speaker 3: kinds of stable coins is the people who issue it

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Speaker 3: hold a bunch of assets that are very liquid, and

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Speaker 3: so if you need to redeem the dollar value of

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Speaker 3: that thing, somebody will go off to their vault sell

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Speaker 3: their gold.

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Speaker 2: There's not going to be a run on the bank.

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Speaker 3: So it's not going to be a run in the bank.

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Speaker 3: That's the theory. The practice is not all stable coins

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Speaker 3: have been created equal, and even the ones that are

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Speaker 3: able to demonstrate that they have the reserves backing them,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, have been prone to volatility in ways that

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Speaker 3: have stressed people out. So one of the things that's

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Speaker 3: happening in the US is the US Congress is hotly

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Speaker 3: debating some stable coin legislation that will actually provide more

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Speaker 3: of a framework that would include things like investor protections.

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Speaker 3: Who do you call if your stable coin dollar is

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Speaker 3: no longer actually worth a dollar? Hasn't been passed yet, has.

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Speaker 1: Been the Genius Act.

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Speaker 3: This is the Genius which is like a callback to.

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Speaker 1: The stable Genius things.

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Speaker 3: I guess yeah, because there's also a Stable Act. There's

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Speaker 3: the Genius Act, the Stable Act. They have slightly different provisions.

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Speaker 3: It's very stable genius haha. But this, I think is

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Speaker 3: a good example of where there is barth partisans consensus

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Speaker 3: that this particular element of blockchain doesn't look like it's

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Speaker 3: going away, and it seems better to have legislation around

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Speaker 3: it rather than not. Now you've mentioned the Trump stable

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Speaker 3: coin that stable coo is issued by World Liberty Financial,

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Speaker 3: which is the Trump family crypto project is largely run

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Speaker 3: by the SUNS. It's promoted by the President on various

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Speaker 3: social platforms, and it's very very new. It's in fact

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Speaker 3: not officially launched to the public, but it has had

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Speaker 3: some extremely high profile deals including the issuance of this

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Speaker 3: stable coin.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, is it pegged to the dollar or

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Speaker 2: what is it?

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Speaker 3: They describe it as a US dollar pegged stable coin,

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Speaker 3: so in theory it should maintain a one to one

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Speaker 3: relationship with the US dollar. What we don't yet have

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Speaker 3: a lot of visibility into is what their reserves look like. Right.

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Speaker 3: So the other big stable coin issue is tether circle

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Speaker 3: provide varying degrees of attestations and financial statements that say, hey,

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Speaker 3: we've got you know, ex billion dollars worth of treasuries

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Speaker 3: being held by Cantor or black Rock or whoever. We

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Speaker 3: haven't seen that yet for World Liberty State.

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Speaker 1: Any you just hope it's not held like exclusively in

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Speaker 1: Trump wine or Trump sneakers or or some other asset.

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Speaker 1: Last thing, jd Vance this was in some ways a

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Speaker 1: victory lap. I think he's like saying thank you to

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Speaker 1: the industry for supporting him. But he made a pitch

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Speaker 1: at the end of this talk essentially for more engagement,

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Speaker 1: like essentially saying to these guys and gals at the

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Speaker 1: crypto industry conference, like, Hey, you need to like stay engaged,

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Speaker 1: you need to support us this political alliance between Trump

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Speaker 1: and crypto, Like how big do you think it is?

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Speaker 1: There was an interview in New York Magazine where Mark

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Speaker 1: Cuban and he actually said the same thing to me

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately New York Magazine

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Speaker 1: got it out before me. But in any case, he said, like,

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Speaker 1: crypto costs democrats the presidency, and I think there are

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Speaker 1: real questions about like how seriously we should take this.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that's a claim that the industry really likes. But

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Speaker 1: how valuable is this cohort politically? To Donald Trump?

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Speaker 3: I would say financially, it's very valuable. Right, So, the

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Speaker 3: crypto industry, starting with Sam Bankman Free in a different time,

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Speaker 3: really changed the perception of how much money they would

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Speaker 3: give to political candidates, Like you know, the sbf ftx

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Speaker 3: Ero was very much we're going to donate aggressively to

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Speaker 3: Democrat and Democrat alliance causes. Under Trump, the industry stepped

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Speaker 3: up substantially both before the election and then continuing into

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Speaker 3: donations to the inaugural parties and all that. Like we're

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Speaker 3: talking multiple millions of dollars of gifts just from crypto,

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Speaker 3: like up there with pharma and tech. And you know,

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Speaker 3: Brian Armstrong who's the chief executive officer at coinbase and

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Speaker 3: has done a lot of work with the fair Shake Pack,

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Speaker 3: has made it clear that the midterms, that the big

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Speaker 3: crypto pack, right, the midterms continue to be like a

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Speaker 3: priority area for donations for campaign support, and so Jdvance

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Speaker 3: is rightly recognizing that the industry has said, we will

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Speaker 3: keep showing up for you, and so you know, they

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Speaker 3: want to be explicit about thank you for doing so

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Speaker 3: Here's here's what else we have on the pipeline.

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Speaker 4: Well, they really have like an existential stake in this,

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Speaker 4: right crypto. I mean, as far is being able to

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Speaker 4: have access to different markets and regulations, it seems like

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Speaker 4: this is a good investment for them.

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Speaker 3: I think if we go back to the kind of

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Speaker 3: the Mark Cuban argument, and I'm not going to get

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Speaker 3: into sophisticated political analysis, but essentially that comes from a

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Speaker 3: place of what crypto allows people to do is like

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Speaker 3: self actualize financially in a way that's not intermediated by

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Speaker 3: gatekeepers and having to have a broker or be rich

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Speaker 3: enough to be a qualified investor. You can kind of

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Speaker 3: go out there, do your own thing and see the

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Speaker 3: numbers go up. And that is a very powerful argument

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Speaker 3: that has been used a lot by the crypto industry

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Speaker 3: for many, many years. We are not the banks, we

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Speaker 3: are not the government. We're in it for you, and

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Speaker 3: you can also be in it for you. It's a

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Speaker 3: very individualistic appeal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a powerful appeal. All right, Stacey Marie, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being here. We'll have to have you back

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Speaker 1: on soon. Next time something crazy happens.

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Speaker 3: Sure it will cause

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Speaker 2: You Stacy Coin, No