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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Meeta's Gear Talk podcast with

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Speaker 1: your hosts Janest Hotels and Jordan's budd Today we are

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Speaker 1: joined by Cam. I'm gonna mess up his last name,

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Speaker 1: rent Singer. Did I say it right? Cam? I got it?

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Speaker 1: And then um, Cam is the founder owner of Nemo Equipment.

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Speaker 1: And if you uh haven't heard an Emo equipment, you

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Speaker 1: must have been living under a rock. If you go

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Speaker 1: into any ri I these days, uh, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to walk probably more than ten yards into that store

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna see either a camp chair, sleeping bag,

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Speaker 1: tent uh probably I don't know, a few other items

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Speaker 1: made by Nemo Equipment. Um, they've been at it for

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Speaker 1: a long time, make some super quality gear. Um. But

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Speaker 1: we're not really here to talk about Nemo in particular.

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Speaker 1: But Cam is just going to talk to us about

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Speaker 1: some general gear stuff, which we'll jump into in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But uh, cams or anything I miss that you'd like

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Speaker 1: to add to. Uh, just like a general bio of

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Speaker 1: yourself that you'd like to add in for our listeners. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's that was a good That was a good introduction, Yanna.

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Speaker 1: So I just would say first, it's a super pleasure

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Speaker 1: to to join you guys. This one's been a little

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Speaker 1: while in the making, so thank you for for having

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Speaker 1: me here today. We had to make a whole new podcast,

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Speaker 1: you know, just to make a spot for you, right,

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. The media, the regular Mediator podcast

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Speaker 1: doesn't get technical enough for for for a guest like

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Speaker 1: you that can dive into the technical like the super

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Speaker 1: super technical aspect of gear that we're gonna do today.

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Speaker 1: So anyways, go ahead. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm stoked to

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Speaker 1: to be here to talk about here and talk about

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Speaker 1: some of that technical stuff. I just add to my background, UM,

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Speaker 1: I went to school for industrial design, so I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: a maker in the in the first place. Though I

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Speaker 1: quote run the business these days, I'm still very involved

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Speaker 1: in the in the product design and development. Having said that, UM,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about some things today. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that I'm not the world's expert on uh you know,

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Speaker 1: we have people on our team who are, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: more qualified in materials and engineering things like that, but

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Speaker 1: I still am very involved. So hopefully I can share

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Speaker 1: some good knowledge with your with your listeners. And I

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Speaker 1: should also say I didn't grow up hunting. I discovered

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Speaker 1: hunting in no small part thanks to to Steve and

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Speaker 1: Ronnella and his writings years ago, and and really have

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Speaker 1: become a passionate sportsman myself. So for that reason also,

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be here. Great. Yeah, we're happy that

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Speaker 1: there's a large group of you. I think they can

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Speaker 1: that you find yourself in right, that people have have

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Speaker 1: come to hunting, probably through uh, Stephen Ronnella's you know,

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Speaker 1: multifaceted media, um journeys. That's right, all right, well let's

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Speaker 1: jump right in. Camp sort of gave us some ideas

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Speaker 1: of what we could talk about when he was on,

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Speaker 1: and the list is long, we're not gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to get to all of it. But what really caught

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Speaker 1: Jordan's and my eyes was that, you know, being that

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Speaker 1: you've been in this business for like twenty five years,

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Speaker 1: you're you really had some points sort of just talking

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Speaker 1: about like sort of what you've seen and like the

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Speaker 1: changes and obviously there's been a lot of different changes,

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Speaker 1: but specifically speaking about like what drives the products that

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Speaker 1: our companies are making. Um, without explaining the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: why don't you just jump right in Cam kind of

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Speaker 1: kind of tell me your initial thoughts on that, and

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Speaker 1: then Jordan, I can pick your brain a little bit. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's right, honest. You know, UM, when I

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Speaker 1: set out to do any amount in the first place,

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Speaker 1: which was twenty years ago and in a few months, um,

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Speaker 1: I was a senior in design school, it was actually

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Speaker 1: my kind of senior thesis project to finish up design school.

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Speaker 1: Incorporated the business that spring, and then moved into our

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Speaker 1: our first office a few days after graduation. Um I

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Speaker 1: was you know, I was young and idealistic. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of bills to pay. Um, I hadn't

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Speaker 1: run a business before. My business plan actually said I

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Speaker 1: would be profitable in six months. It took about twelve

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Speaker 1: years to to make that happen. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: had a lot to learn. But um, but I had

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Speaker 1: a few convictions to begin with, and and one of

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Speaker 1: them was I wanted to make really great gear and

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Speaker 1: really be part of improving the experience of of being outdoors.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's that's true of really all the

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Speaker 1: iconic brands, high end, especially brands we would think of

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Speaker 1: the founders. I'm sure we're driven by a similar passion. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what I found you know over these I just

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Speaker 1: want to interrupt real quick. Was when you were thinking

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Speaker 1: about making really good, great gear. Were you already in

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Speaker 1: in that moment being like, man, there's space for more

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Speaker 1: really great gear, or like I'm being let down by

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Speaker 1: the current offerings. Is that where your head was at.

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, and the industry and the consumer

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Speaker 1: product world has changed a lot since then, so I

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Speaker 1: think when we look around today this would be less obvious.

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Speaker 1: But twenty years ago, there was still actually a lot

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Speaker 1: of white space. I mean, I mean there were there

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Speaker 1: were still a lot of products yet to be invented. Um,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of improving still to be done. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I you know, I looked around. Actually, I got

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Speaker 1: the mountain Gear catalog in the mail a couple of

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Speaker 1: times a year, and that was kind of my basis

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Speaker 1: for sort of seeing what was out there for mountaineering

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Speaker 1: and backpacking gear. And I noticed, you know that it

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Speaker 1: was pretty much the same stuff year after year, and

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Speaker 1: uh and so yeah, I was, you know, and some

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Speaker 1: of it was being years old and pretty idealistic and

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Speaker 1: naive again. But um, but I I saw a lot

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Speaker 1: of opportunity and at the time I was actually working

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Speaker 1: for M I T, paid for by NASA to to

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Speaker 1: work on space suit designs. UM. I had an office

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Speaker 1: at M I T. So I was surrounded by you know,

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Speaker 1: engineers on the one hand and product designers on the other.

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Speaker 1: And then on the weekends, I was heading off to

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Speaker 1: the mountains. So I had this picture in mind of

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Speaker 1: kind of merging all those things together. But back to

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Speaker 1: your previous question, Um, you know what I've noticed in

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Speaker 1: a couple of decades since is I think as a

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Speaker 1: result of this culture that we've been in of kind

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Speaker 1: of measuring our success to some degree by the amount

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Speaker 1: of stuff we surround ourselves with the world. Is you know,

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Speaker 1: there's been such a proliferation of things and and such

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Speaker 1: a drive to make those things less and less expensive. Um.

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Speaker 1: The quality has largely has been a victim in many

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Speaker 1: cases of that. And and I think when you're doing

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Speaker 1: serious activities like backcountry hunting, where you're really especially in

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Speaker 1: certain moments, depending on the gear um to perform or

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Speaker 1: to keep you safe, even it's still worth it to

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Speaker 1: too to buy the best stuff. And uh, and then

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Speaker 1: the question becomes, how do you discern the difference between

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Speaker 1: really high quality things and not so quality things, so

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Speaker 1: you're not wasting your money. And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: you're getting at is is maybe something explore a little

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Speaker 1: bit today. Yeah, like I wanted to see, like you

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Speaker 1: know or here you talk about like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: change the changes that you just explained and have seen

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Speaker 1: over twenty years of you know, probably in your competitors.

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Speaker 1: But I guess can you give me some examples that

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Speaker 1: you saw and you don't have to name any um

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Speaker 1: of your competitors or you know, other outdoor brand companies names,

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Speaker 1: but just give me an example of like how that

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Speaker 1: would actually come to fruition totally. Yeah, let's make it

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Speaker 1: concrete so you know, and and I won't disparage any brands,

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Speaker 1: but I can give some positive examples of some things,

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Speaker 1: um that really exhibit quality and have lasted. And I

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Speaker 1: can also maybe I'll start up by just relaying one

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Speaker 1: of the first lessons I learned about quality as I

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Speaker 1: came into our industry was around coatings. So today NEMA

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Speaker 1: makes variety products as you mentioned, but we started out

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Speaker 1: just as a tent maker, and a really important part

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Speaker 1: of of making a tent, of course, it is making

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Speaker 1: it waterproof. And there's basically two different polymers that are

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Speaker 1: typically used to make a tent waterproof, either polyorthans or silicones.

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Speaker 1: And we can get now that is that is that

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Speaker 1: the fabric you're talking about, or the coating on that,

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Speaker 1: that's the coating. That's the coating on the fabric. And

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Speaker 1: we could nerd out and kind of go deep on that.

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Speaker 1: But but just holding that notion for a second, we

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Speaker 1: decided in the early days of EMO that that your

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Speaker 1: athens was the direction we were going to go. And

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Speaker 1: uh and and so, you know, a couple of years

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Speaker 1: into NEMO, we had been you know, making developing at

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Speaker 1: that points tends, making a lot of samples. UM. Eventually

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Speaker 1: I started the company two thousand and two. Eventually we

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Speaker 1: started sales in two thousand six. By the time we

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Speaker 1: really kind of squared away the designs and we're ready

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Speaker 1: to go to the market and go to market UM.

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Speaker 1: And by say two thousand seven, two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: we had had samples now sitting in our storage and

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Speaker 1: our archives for two three four years. And I remember,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the day in the year, but I

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Speaker 1: remember the moment of going into the sample room and

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Speaker 1: pulling out a relatively old sample and as soon as

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Speaker 1: I opened the draw string on the storage bag, just

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Speaker 1: being hit in the face with this gnarly smell and

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Speaker 1: pulling the sample out and it's all like stuck together

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Speaker 1: and like like sort of like toffee um. The coating

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Speaker 1: had just dissolved and totally degraded. And you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: young guy entrepreted our own emission to make a great

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Speaker 1: brand and make the best product, this was like, holy crap,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here? Like, I'm gonna have to There's

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Speaker 1: a lot I'm gonna have to learning. I get to

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Speaker 1: get to the bottom of this, and and so that

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Speaker 1: kicked off, you know, kind of a journey for us

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Speaker 1: that took years of really understanding your athane coatings and

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Speaker 1: kind of getting to the bottom of what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the supply chain and how to control that. And

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Speaker 1: the short of the story of what happened there is

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Speaker 1: your thing codings as I understand it. We're actually really

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Speaker 1: pioneered by the U. S. Military many decades ago as

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Speaker 1: a means of waterproofing that had really excellent cold weather resistance.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of stay pliable regardless of temperatures

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Speaker 1: and quite durable, and in our own domestic coating manufacturers

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Speaker 1: really lead that process developed great chemicals and so the

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Speaker 1: early polyorthine coatings were ether based um chemistry and would

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Speaker 1: last many, many years. And as the sporting goods industry's

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Speaker 1: supply chain moved to Asia, a lot of that kind

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Speaker 1: of know how was lost and the supply chain sort

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Speaker 1: of sort of the whole supply chain behind the cut

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Speaker 1: makes so factories, all the the yarns, the chemistries, everything

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Speaker 1: went with that of course to Asia, and before too long,

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Speaker 1: ether coating started to get replaced by ester coatings because

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Speaker 1: esther coatings are much less expensive, but esther hydrolyzes or

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Speaker 1: breaks down with water quite easily. And so in those

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Speaker 1: early days of email, we're having no idea that that's

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Speaker 1: what we were doing. We were buying into this supply

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Speaker 1: chain where quality had eroded because no one was really

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Speaker 1: paying attention to it, and we were putting lawsy qualities

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Speaker 1: allows equality your thane on those early samples. Um So

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Speaker 1: that's that's an example of you know, in that case,

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Speaker 1: sort of due to a migration of of kind of

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Speaker 1: the know how um as supply chains have moved around

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Speaker 1: the world. But you know, at the same time, I

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Speaker 1: think you know, the consumer. I'm in the sort of

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Speaker 1: post Amazon, post Walmart world that we live in. There's

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Speaker 1: so much cost competition. Um, it's always putting pressure on

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Speaker 1: brands that want to grow, particularly want to grow, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the in the sort of bottom half of the market, UM,

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Speaker 1: to lower prices even as labor costs go up, materials

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Speaker 1: costs go up, and something has to give when you

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Speaker 1: do that, and uh, and so over the years, I've seen,

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Speaker 1: you know, the market increasingly being flooded with stuff that

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Speaker 1: really isn't built to last. And a sort of an

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Speaker 1: opposite example, I was thinking about this this morning and

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Speaker 1: anticipation of this discussion of just a couple of products

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Speaker 1: in my own life that have been remarkably high quality

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Speaker 1: and two that come to mind for me. Or I'm

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Speaker 1: an avid motorcycle guy. I've been a Duala spore guy

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Speaker 1: for a long time. And um, when I was a

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Speaker 1: couple of years in an Emo, I'm still not really

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Speaker 1: paying myself much of the salary. I made a stretch

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Speaker 1: and bought a BMW six fifty two car and the

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Speaker 1: BMW Rally jacket to go with that, which is really

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Speaker 1: expensive jacket at the time, and it was just I

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Speaker 1: forget exactly, but it was a lot of dollars I

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Speaker 1: still have now. Now you bought that jacket for aesthetics

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Speaker 1: to go with that fancy bike or or was it

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Speaker 1: because yeah, I mean, you know, I was twenty something

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Speaker 1: years old. I wanted, like, you know, the beam or

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Speaker 1: Duala sport with the awesome beam or rally jacket to

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Speaker 1: go with it. But also you know, I was playing

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Speaker 1: in trips to Mexico and Canada, and you know, wanted

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Speaker 1: the performance features that they can't like the rally Jacket's

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Speaker 1: got a lot of cool ventilation and and has a

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Speaker 1: waterproof liner and um some really smartly engineered armor components

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So it's you know, to me,

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Speaker 1: it was it was a value in both being cool

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Speaker 1: but also being you know, really delivering on that performance set.

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Speaker 1: But I still ride with that this morning, I was

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Speaker 1: out of my my bike. I'm still ride with that

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Speaker 1: same jack at eighteen years later. And because it's red,

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Speaker 1: it has some red components on it, and red pigment

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Speaker 1: tends to fade faster than other colors. It's a little faded,

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Speaker 1: but otherwise the functionality of that jacket is exactly the

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Speaker 1: same as it was eighteen years ago, and likewise, I

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Speaker 1: still climb, although I don't ice climb nearly as much

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Speaker 1: these days. In fact, pretty and frequently in the last

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Speaker 1: few years. UM, I still have the same pair of

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Speaker 1: last pertiv in the Paul top boots I bought when

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Speaker 1: I was in college almost thirty years ago. And I

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Speaker 1: just want to say it's it's you know, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to We can get into the details a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but the challenge of making products that will do that Actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, a pair of boots that will last you

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Speaker 1: for thirty years, or a jacket that will you ride

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Speaker 1: through rain and sun for eighteen years. It's hard and

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Speaker 1: and requires you know, real investment in design and engineering,

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Speaker 1: UM and testing, UM and and a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that are very hard to sell on the shelf. You know,

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Speaker 1: the quality of stitching and coatings and yarns and things

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Speaker 1: that the customer are not going to immediately be able

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Speaker 1: to identify when they're kind of staying there looking at

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Speaker 1: something on the rack is really essential to to to

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Speaker 1: meeting that kind of longevity. Well, let's just go back

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Speaker 1: to like the tent example, when you're talking about the

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Speaker 1: different uh your A thane codings, you guys obviously learned

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Speaker 1: and went to the did you the ether was the

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Speaker 1: good one? Yes, the ether coding, So did you go

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Speaker 1: back to that? And then were there other companies that

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Speaker 1: just continue to produce the esther base coding and can

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Speaker 1: like just made a lesser product. It took a little

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Speaker 1: while or the industry to figure out what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, we live in the in the

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Speaker 1: sort of subset if you were to look at kind

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Speaker 1: of our industry as as a pyramid of you know,

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Speaker 1: the top of the pyramid being kind of the most

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Speaker 1: high performance, most expensive, and smallest market products, to the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the pyramid being the opposite of that. You know,

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Speaker 1: we live in the in the top third of that pyramid,

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Speaker 1: say um, and all of the brands essentially in that space,

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Speaker 1: you know, are committed to making great product. That's how

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Speaker 1: you you earn and retain your spot. Um kind of

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Speaker 1: in that stack, if you will. But um. But it

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Speaker 1: took the industry while to figure that out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we swapped notes with other competitor brands

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Speaker 1: and retailers in the space and and collectively sort of

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Speaker 1: put our heads together and rained in that supply chain

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Speaker 1: over a matter of years and today you know that

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Speaker 1: issue of hydrolysis as well understood, and you know you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be buying a quality tent or rain jacket or

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Speaker 1: anything else that's coated with your athan and seeing it

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Speaker 1: it's become really stinky and toffee like anytime soon, I see,

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Speaker 1: so that this isn't like a thing where the consumer

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Speaker 1: has to be like, all right, next time I'm going

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Speaker 1: tent shopping, I need to check which you're a thing

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Speaker 1: it was made with, because it's been figured out. It

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Speaker 1: has been figured out by the high end brands. But

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Speaker 1: it is the difference between you know, going into a

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Speaker 1: specialty store and spending a few hundred dollars on a

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Speaker 1: reputable tent brand and say, you know, buying a very

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Speaker 1: inexpensive tent from a box store. Can you give a

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Speaker 1: high level on the silicone coatings versus like a polly

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Speaker 1: that Paul, you're a thane. Yeah, yeah, So silicon is

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Speaker 1: great actually, and you know we try to use it

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Speaker 1: where we can um it actually will retain more of

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Speaker 1: the strength of the fabric. Like you can make a

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Speaker 1: an apples to apples compared us, and you can make

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Speaker 1: a stronger silicone coated fabric than than you're a thing

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00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 1: coated fabric, so that would you know, that's almost always

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Speaker 1: going to be very appealing. It's generally lighter to which

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Speaker 1: is great. The challenge of it, as we know about

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Speaker 1: silicone from other places in our lives, we see it

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Speaker 1: as nothing wants to stick to it, so you can't

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Speaker 1: seem tape a silicon tent. And over the years, some

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Speaker 1: brands like Hilleberg was really at the front end of

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Speaker 1: this many years ago, have developed stitching techniques kind of

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Speaker 1: combinations of threads and needles and and kind of folding

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Speaker 1: techniques for seams that will for the most part block

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Speaker 1: water from coming through stitches. And a lot of that

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Speaker 1: that that theory is actually shared with like the canvas

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Speaker 1: tent industry, where if you use a thread that will

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Speaker 1: absorb some water, actually it'll swell up and kind of

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Speaker 1: fill the stitch hole and stop water from moving through it.

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Speaker 1: Um But we have not found that too to be

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Speaker 1: as reliably waterproof as taping a tent, and so though

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Speaker 1: we've we've dabbled with it over the years, we generally

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00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 1: prefer to use your theme based coatings. Nice interesting, so

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00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 1: what about instead of seam taping. You just take the

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00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 1: what's that stuff like seem grip seems steal and just

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00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,920
Speaker 1: seal the whole thing. You can do that. It's it's

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00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 1: a you know, it's a pretty it's a pretty big

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00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,239
Speaker 1: burden on the consumer. Is kind of our outlook on that. Like,

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Speaker 1: if we can deliver to you a tent that right

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00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 1: off the shelf is going to be waterproof, we'd rather

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Speaker 1: without other significant downsides. We'd rather do that than give

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00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: you a tent and a tube of seam grip and

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00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 1: ask you to take your very expensive high intent and

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00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: try to do a halfway decent shoy. You know, so

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00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,360
Speaker 1: like you've tried this before, Jordan's it's a it's it's

348
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 1: it's tough to do well. Um, it's it has you

349
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: know a lot of v O c is. It's pretty

350
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: smelly stuff. I mean, if you're you know, doing it

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00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: in the house or the apartment, Um, it's it's pretty noxious.

352
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: So if you know, again, our our mission. We did

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Speaker 1: actually make a mountaineering town in the early days where

354
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 1: where you had to seem grip it, but as soon

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Speaker 1: as we figured out how to not require that of

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Speaker 1: the customer, we moved away from it. Well, and how

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00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: come how come a company you just can't do the

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00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: seam ceiling itself? Well, in a sense, that is what

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00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: we do. I mean by taking it, by taking it, yeah,

360
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and the truth is you honestly,

361
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: I think someday we'll look back and think stitching a

362
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: tent is a pretty silly thing. Stitching anything you want

363
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 1: to be waterproof is kind of silly because we're you know,

364
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 1: we're punching the zillion holes in it and then we're

365
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: having to go back and figure out how to cover

366
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: all the little holes. Um. So, you know, another thing

367
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 1: brands like us have work done over the years is

368
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: trying to just weld tense together. There are many welded products,

369
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: as we all know, out there at this point, but

370
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 1: the challenge we found there is is around weight by

371
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: the time you have enough coating or lamination on the

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Speaker 1: fabric to create a good weld, because it's not really

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00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: it's not the yarns that fuse together. It's it's either

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00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: the coating that gets knifed on or the lamination that

375
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 1: gets bonded to the fabric that becomes the glue. You know,

376
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 1: because like hut glue, you know, when you when you

377
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: put that steam through heat and pressure, that coating or

378
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: or film melts and becomes the glue that joins everything together.

379
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: By the time you have enough of it on there,

380
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: you become uncompetitive in weight, you know. And if you

381
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 1: think about like we're making two person tense, we and

382
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: other high end brands are making two person tense in

383
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: the realm of two pounds. I mean, that's that is

384
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: not a lot of material, you know, you spread that

385
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: out over a whole floor and canopy and I and

386
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about gossamer thickness stuff and and just having

387
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,719
Speaker 1: to really optimize everything. What's that term? You just use

388
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 1: gossamer thickness. Yeah, like you know, just like really really thin,

389
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: airy kind of stuff at this point. Interesting. Yeah, that's

390
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: a that's an interesting point that even though it can't

391
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: really be done today, that in probably ten years, there

392
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: might not be a rain jacket that has stitching it anymore. Huh.

393
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: We'd all love to move that way. I mean, it

394
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: would it would deliver more value to the customer in

395
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: a couple of regards. I mean, there's a lot of

396
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: labor time in the stitching and seam sailing of a tent.

397
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: You know, so welding, it would skip at least one

398
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: step there, so it presumably could reduce some cost for

399
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: the consumer. And then at the end of the day again,

400
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: you know, if you're not punching a zillion holes and

401
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 1: you don't have to go back and patch holes, and

402
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 1: we do find you know, over the very long term,

403
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: the seam tape is still kind of the Achilles heel

404
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: of the tent. You're you're basically taping over holes. It's

405
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: it's not the mechanical connection of a stitched seam that

406
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: tends to get it's usually the tape over that um

407
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: that's the first victim. So we'd love to get rid

408
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: of seam tape in them in the future. I'll be

409
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: looking forward to it, Jordan. I have a lot of

410
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 1: questions just about these techy questions, but I really want

411
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 1: to do get to like a real concrete example of

412
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: something that like the listener can take home or the

413
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: next time they go, you know, shopping at ARII or

414
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: Sportsman's or whatever, and they're just like trying to figure

415
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: out if the quality is there and if they're like

416
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: it's worth it to pay that extra money when they

417
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, a range jacket that's you know

418
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: fo bock versus the rain jacket that's a hundred, or

419
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: you know the same thing, intense and sleeping bags. Like,

420
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: is there just some sort of like tips or like

421
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, red flags you can like give to for

422
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: people to look out for when they're doing their shopping

423
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: to to you know, when they're looking for better quality gear. Yeah,

424
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: for sure, you know. And before I before I say that,

425
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: I just want to say too that, um I I

426
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: still you know, all these years into our industry, I've

427
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: accumulated a pretty good gear closet because you know, within

428
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: our industry, we tend to swap gear with each other

429
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: and offer you know, deals to each other and things.

430
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: So I'm not for want of gear, and it becomes easy,

431
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: I think, to get a little spoiled and complacent about

432
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: just how expensive gear is. And you know, when we

433
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: when we've met new friends over the years and you know,

434
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: introduced them to the outdoors and they've got excited about camping,

435
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: is always a moment when I realized, like it's it's

436
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: pretty darn expecting, like you know, setting up the family

437
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: and a couple of kids to to really do camping

438
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: and do it with good quality gears is a big investment.

439
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: And um, so I want to say in the first place,

440
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: I think really the way to think about it is

441
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: is you know, finding value, you know, for yourself based

442
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: on what your needs are. And you know, it's kind

443
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: of like if if you're just commuting to work, Um,

444
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: then an ordinary car does a great job. You want

445
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: to raise F one you need you need a Formula

446
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: one car, And there's a pretty big difference in price,

447
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: and there's a very big difference in the materials and

448
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: engineering and design and construction and both are a value, right.

449
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: It depends on the performance you're looking for. So you know,

450
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: I think if you know, if you're going way out

451
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: into the back country on a regular basis as a

452
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: back country hunter, and you're needing to be self sufficient

453
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: and you're you know, you're going to face some pretty

454
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: rugged conditions, Um, that's justification I think for investing as

455
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: much as you can and and and really gear that

456
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: not only will perform again, but will also last. I mean,

457
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: when when I think about my moto jacket and the

458
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: fact I've had it for eighteen years, let's say it

459
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: was a thousand bucks in the first place, which it

460
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: wasn't that much, but it was quite expensive. How many

461
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: lousy jackets I'm hight of bots to replace one after

462
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: the other in eighteen years, and how quickly it would

463
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: be a lot more than a thousand bucks. So I

464
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: think that's that to me, that's sort of the framework

465
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: through which to look at look at it um back

466
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: to sort of the cues. You know. One that I

467
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: note is just having been in our industry a long

468
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: time and looked at a lot of we calm bombs

469
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: or bill of materials because we're developing a product. You know,

470
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: we're formulating a list of every single component and every

471
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: every labor hour that's associated with building that, and that

472
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: you know ultimately drives what the retail price needs to

473
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: be based on, you know, what margin we need as

474
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: as a business to support our business, and then the

475
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: margin that the retailer needs plus you know, potentially paying

476
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: sales commissions and import duties and other factors. Um. So

477
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: I've looked at a lot of bombs over the years,

478
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: and I know where are the places that you spend

479
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: money and if you were a brand looking to sort

480
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: of cut costs and have that not be super apparent

481
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: to the customer, where you would likely do that. And

482
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: you know, of course the obvious place you would look

483
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: is is the stuff that's not going to be real

484
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: apparent on the shelf, you know. So a great example

485
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: for me, and again I'm just going to highlight, you know,

486
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: a couple of brands as we're talking that you know,

487
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: or products. I think that it really have been exemplary

488
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: over the years. I've always since their early days of Arterics,

489
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: I've been a fan and appreciator of of Arterics stuff.

490
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: And and one of the things I actually became good

491
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: friends with with one of the early employees of arc

492
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: Tereks who's in our industry now rent some ex sales

493
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: agency that we do some work with, and he told

494
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: me many years ago that about fifteen per cent or

495
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: so of the cost of making Artek's clothing. Now this is,

496
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, called ten fifteen years ago, but I presume

497
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: it's still true today, will never be appreciated by the customer.

498
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: It's completely invisible to them, you know, is in seam

499
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: tolerances and codings and specs of of materials and findings

500
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: like the little zippers and chords and things like that

501
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: that the customer is never gonna it's not it's not

502
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: sold on the hang tag, it's not on the website

503
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: as a bullet points, and most customers will have no

504
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: idea and it's just their unprincipled you know about trying

505
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: to make the best quality thing possible. Um, if you

506
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: don't have those kind of values and you're looking to

507
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: deliver a lower price point, um and sort of hide

508
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, maybe have a lot of bells and whistles

509
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: and a product, but kind of hide that you've cut corners.

510
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: An easy place to do that is in webbing. And

511
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: it's very hard to convey the difference between nylon and

512
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: polyester and poly pro polypropol and webb webbing over a podcast. Um,

513
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: we'll tell I think the easiest way too though to

514
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: explain it the webbing is um because to me too,

515
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like webbing. What's webbing? You know? And

516
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: I can think of like a a strap that's made

517
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: of webbing. But like, tell me where you would find

518
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: where webbing in outdoor product? Yeah, yeah, good point. I

519
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: sort of take for granted that term. But yeah, so

520
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: webbing is like the exactly as you said, you honest,

521
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: it's it's like a heavy strap and it comes in

522
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: different forms from down to like a shoelace, you know,

523
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: to ah to the seat belt in your car. And

524
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, there's a number of different ways to weave it.

525
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: It can be flat, it can be tubularum. But it's

526
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: it's a very ubiquitous detail in the outdoor gear right

527
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: like it's it forms the handles on things. It forms

528
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: the the tie down straps on say, like on a

529
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: lid of a backpack. You know where you would clip

530
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: that in and then pull a strap. You know, that's webbing.

531
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: Every strap on a backpack, every stall in this category,

532
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: every strap, so you really, with with very few exceptions,

533
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: you want those straps to be nylon. Nylon is is

534
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: the strongest of the the polymers from which webbing is

535
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: typically made. There's exotic stuff, aramids and things like that,

536
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: but generally speaking, um nyline is going to be the longest, lasting,

537
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: strongest choice. Polypropylene floats, which you know in some boating

538
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: applications is interesting like it. It can make great lines

539
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: for like a painter on a dinghy. It can be

540
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: useful for it because it floats on water. Um but

541
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: it's much weaker than nylon. It's also a lot less expensive.

542
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: So I've seen so many bags, you know, on the

543
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: floor of retail that are meant to to look awesome.

544
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: You know, they've got all the bells and whistles, tactical

545
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: looking stuff, pockets everywhere, straps everywhere, and you get up

546
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: close and because I know that the tactle and visual differences,

547
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: I can see right away that is not nylon webbing.

548
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: That's polypro webbing. So that's that's just one of many examples.

549
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: So is that something though that if you're say, you're

550
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: looking at backpacks and I guess you could call the company,

551
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: you know that if they haven't good enough customer service

552
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: where you know, someone real answers the phone, or if

553
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: you're on the floor, let's say it Sportsman's warehouse, if

554
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: you're like asking the sales associate, Hey, is that nylon

555
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: or polly pro webbing? Are they even going to have

556
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: an answer for you? You know, it's it's a good

557
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: question and maybe not right, which is sort of part

558
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: of the problem. Um, you know, I think it reminds

559
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: me of home improvement, you know, and you and I

560
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: were talking to this recently, but just the difficulty these

561
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: days of finding really skilled, reasonably priced labor. You know,

562
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: just the challenge today of um finding quality work. I

563
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: think there's just and this sort of back to the

564
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: point I was trying to make in the beginning. It's

565
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really high quality stuff still out

566
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: there in the world. I mean, you know, there are

567
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: many brands committed to making great stuff that will last,

568
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: but there's there's a lot of noise around that. And

569
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: I think it's it's, you know, if you want to

570
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: to really get the right equipment for yourself, there's kind

571
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: of no choice today but too to put a little

572
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: time into becoming somewhat of an expert, to try and

573
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: accumulate some of your own knowledge, because I think you're right, Um,

574
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's you're not necessarily going to find that

575
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: on the sales floor. Um, you know. I mean I

576
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: think of you know, just all the furniture out there

577
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: in the world, and I won't name any brands in

578
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: a disparaging way, but you know there's some some popular

579
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: expensive furniture brands charging thousands of dollars for things that

580
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: doesn't have joinery, that doesn't you know, that's not it's

581
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: not built to last. The optics are nice, but that

582
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: old world skill of making something that will last for

583
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: generations is harder to come by. And with that, I

584
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 1: think the customer is less trained to look for it.

585
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: And uh, And that's I think what we're getting at

586
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 1: here too, is a lot of times customers aren't asking

587
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: those questions, so sales staff don't have to have that knowledge.

588
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: It becomes sort of a negative feedback loop. Insert this podcast,

589
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: why we wanted to do this whole thing, Try to

590
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: throw knowledge out there right now? Yeah, I would. I

591
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: would hope that if you called, say, out of the

592
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: backpack companies that we've been messing with recently, like Stone, Glacier, Excel, Gear, Kfaru,

593
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: Mystery Ranch, if you called them, I'd imagine that someone

594
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: on the phone will be able to give you a

595
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: solid answer to that question, right, I think without it,

596
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: with the brands you just named, I'd be very surprised

597
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 1: if they couldn't answer that question, you know. And I

598
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: think that's sort of back to what I was saying before,

599
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: where I think what I'm getting at is kind of

600
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: wanting to justify for your listeners why we continue as

601
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: consumers to to buy from brands like that, right because

602
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: you can get on Amazon right now, and finds a

603
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: backpack for a whole lot less money than the brands

604
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: you just named. And I think it'd be a rational

605
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: question to say, why would I spend three d bucks

606
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: on on a mystery ranch bag as opposed to thirty

607
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: bucks on you know, this thing on Amazon that's got

608
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: five great reviews and you know, And I think that

609
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: the most generalist way to answer that is nobody in

610
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: today's world, no brands makes an outsized margin. I mean,

611
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: if you tried to to come to market, I'm making

612
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: an enormous margin on things. With how accessible supply chains

613
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: are now and how easy it is to sell things online,

614
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: someone's going to undercut that price tomorrow, you know, like

615
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: we're We're all like it is more and more of

616
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: the case for companies like Nemo and every other consumer

617
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: brand out there. It's, um, it's a hyper competitive world.

618
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: UM it's a very transparent and very flat world. UM So,

619
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: no one's robbing you and making like some ridiculous margin,

620
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: um and just pocketing that. UM So. I think my

621
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: the thesis I'm trying to to to share with your

622
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: listeners is um is sort of why generally speaking, it's

623
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: still worth worth it too to buy the higher quality

624
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: gear and support the higher and brands. It's because it

625
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: is turning into I think, with very few exceptions, those

626
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: dollars are going to the ingredients that you need to

627
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: have a piece of equipment that will do the things

628
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: that we all as backup traanders want to do. Yeah, Okay,

629
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw this out there because I just can't

630
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: like let you go without asking this. I know we'll

631
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: have you on another time, but give me like the like,

632
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: seriously the thirty second answer too, because right on the

633
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: heels or there's probably people listening right now going like, yeah, right,

634
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: that's why you guys make it in China or Thailand

635
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: or wherever overseas, and you can't tell me that you can't.

636
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: You're not making it for super cheap and making a

637
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: bunch of money on it. So if possible, try to

638
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: give me like the thirty second answer that and we'll

639
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: leave the deep dive to another day. But go ahead. Yeah,

640
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: I mean, great question. Um, And when we have faced

641
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: and and and wrestled with many times over the years,

642
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: it's gonna be slight and more than thirty seconds. I

643
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: was expecting it when when I when I started an

644
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: email I I really I was actually really determined to

645
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: do the manufacturing in the US. UM in in part

646
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: out of just sort of pure kind of patriotism, but

647
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: but all so in in large part because I wanted

648
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: to be able to easily travel to to the factories

649
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, do development, um closely with

650
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: them and learn, you know, learn from being able to

651
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: be there, you know, in the chemistry factory, you know,

652
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: in the yarn factory. UM. And and we have done

653
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: actually a fair amount of manufacturing in the States over

654
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: the years. We've had a pretty strong business with special

655
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: operations UM. Kind of peaked around the bin laden Mission

656
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: era UM. You know, and for a lot of those

657
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: contracts we we had to UM to so items in

658
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: the US. Yeah that might not be known to everybody,

659
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: but like basically, if you do gear for the US military,

660
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: it has to be made in the US of a

661
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: correct Yeah, it's enough quantity it does. UM. That's called

662
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: the very amendment UM. Yeah. So we you know, we've

663
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: got some real experience with that in the category of

664
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: cut makes so and I think that's a really important distinction.

665
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: So there there are many items, many types of manufacturing

666
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: where America leads the way UM and and unequivocally you know,

667
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: still makes the best stuff. And and there may be

668
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: little reason to to to source those items anywhere else

669
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: in the world, except perhaps to to cut costs. But

670
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 1: the reality is what we found, UM and what other

671
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: high end brands UM and our space have found, is

672
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: there aren't any Americans that want to sit at a

673
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: sewing machine anymore. UM. That kind of work that cut

674
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: makes so work, the skill set, the talent, the investment,

675
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: and it has just moved to other parts of the world,

676
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: and frankly in many cases other parts of the world

677
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: that haven't sort of developed past. Wanting to say, I mean,

678
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that if you look at our

679
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: sort of global value chain, that the jobs that are

680
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: American in our value chain are the ones in my

681
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: office in southern Hampshire, which are design, engineering, development, testing,

682
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, where we're innovating, we're adding value.

683
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, they're great, they're well paying jobs where you know,

684
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: we're we're adding a tremendous amount of value in that process. UM.

685
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: The parts sort of further upstream that involve I'm dealing

686
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: with tough chemistries, you know, and doing manual work like

687
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 1: at a sewing machine. UM. Those have moved off shore,

688
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: and the reality is ecosystems have been built up around

689
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: those skill sets and other parts of the world that

690
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: even if we wanted to say, move some piece of

691
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: that to somewhere else, including sort of restoring it back

692
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: to the US, it would be difficult to do it

693
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: without moving that whole supply chain with it. And so

694
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't do a lot of manufacturing in

695
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: China that per se. We've actually UM in the past

696
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: done more than we do today. We've we've migrated out

697
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: of China for various reasons over recent years. Um Uh.

698
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: But by and large, that Pacific RIM region is the

699
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: best place in the world to make high end product

700
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: like ours. In every high end brand, essentially, UM goes

701
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: to those places, you know for the best quality sewing,

702
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: the best quality fabrics coming out of you know, Korea,

703
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: Japan and so on. UM. So it's really good right there.

704
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: You just nailed that. That was your ten second answer

705
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: right there. And I know that a lot of people

706
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: are gonna still shake their heads and you know, call

707
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: you lie or whatever. We're going to have enough people

708
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: on this show that will corroborate your story that I

709
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: hope that down the line we will sort of maybe

710
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: change you know, move the needle a little bit and

711
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: people will go, Okay, I understand why they make that

712
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: gear over there. Now, well, can I throw one more

713
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: thing at that? So some years ago we actually appealed

714
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: to UM Armies, the Army's Mann Tech Division Manufacturing Techniques Division,

715
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: for funding to try to develop an alternative to selling

716
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: this kind of back to something we're talking about earlier,

717
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: and how I think someday we'll move past punching a

718
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: whole bunch of holes, you know, in our waterproof products

719
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: and then patching over them. UM largely for the reason

720
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 1: that that that we could restore that. Like I think

721
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: if we could replace sewing with more like a CNC

722
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: kind of process, UM, that's that's a higher paying, more technical,

723
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: skill oriented, sitting at a computer kind of job, which

724
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: I think could be very viable and very competitive in

725
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: the States. So I don't think for the long run

726
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: there's no future in making products like this in the US.

727
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: But I think as they're made today, they're actually not

728
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: the most that the spice inside, it's not the most

729
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: desirable jobs in American sides. Thank you. For doing your best,

730
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: the best, a good job explaining it, and for trying

731
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: to keep it short, because I know we could talk

732
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: for hours and hours of why people make stuff over there,

733
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: all right, So Jordan I both landed on this topic

734
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: is something that we wanted you just to talk about

735
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: because it's interesting to us. And I think that a

736
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: lot of listeners, whether you're back country hunter or maybe

737
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: if not a bad country hunter, but if you're you know,

738
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: a camper, backpacker or whatever. But the new thing in installation,

739
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: it's not that new. It's probably five or six years old,

740
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: I guess, and at least, but it's like water proved

741
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: down right. Yes, I'm always I'm always I want to

742
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: just talk in general about insulation. But let's start with

743
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: with down and well let's let's compare waterproof down to

744
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: regular down, and then we can compare down to synthetics.

745
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: But I was always I was thinking, well, that's the

746
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: best thing ever. It's gonna be like waterproof down right.

747
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: It's like you don't even need synthetics anymore. But then

748
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: it's sort of kind of came about. People started, there

749
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: were some whispers and everybody's like, yeah, but what if

750
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: the codings on that on the down are actually like

751
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: limiting how well performs. So give me the breakdown of

752
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: of the waterproof down thing and then and then compare

753
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: waterproof down and regular down like in the environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

754
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: a classic um and and great question. Um So down

755
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: just continues to be this totally amazing thing, Like if

756
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: you get the chance to, and you can google searching

757
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: and see it. But if you look at a down

758
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: feather under a microscope, pretty amazing little structure. And we

759
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: haven't yet been able to kind of replicate, um, the

760
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: fractal nature of that structure in a manufacturing process. I mean,

761
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: what makes the the down feather such an effective insulators?

762
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: You know, it has this kind of relatively rigid little

763
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: spine which holds some volume, like it pushes some things away,

764
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: It declares a little bit of airspace for itself, and

765
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: then it fills that airspace with all these little teeny

766
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: microscopic tendrils which which restrict air flow. And it's that

767
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: restriction of airflow that that produces that insulating effect, and

768
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: synthetic insulations come a long way. It's it's closer than

769
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: ever to to to replicating the insulating power of the

770
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: down feather. But but it is not. It does not

771
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: match it UM. And so for that reason, you know,

772
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: as you said, you honest, I'm brands and their suppliers

773
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: have wanted to figure out how to overcome the one

774
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: weakness of down, which is when it gets wet, all

775
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: of that goes away. That little structure takes on water

776
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: and kind of all those little tendrils that would stick

777
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: out there and stop air from moving, they kind of

778
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: fold in on themselves and ball up. So and I

779
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: lose track of time now, but it was probably something

780
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: like ten, ten fifteen years ago we started to see

781
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: the first available treated down and Nemo is an early

782
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: customer that, and it's it's proven to be I'M quite effective.

783
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: As you said, anything you do that sort of adds

784
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: some mass or chemis street to that down feather is

785
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: inherently going to have a trade off. So you do

786
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: see some very marginal decline and the dry performance of

787
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: a down feathers as you treat it with things. But

788
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: original so I'd say, by and large it treated, and

789
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,959
Speaker 1: it's and I should say to there, they don't become

790
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: water proof. It's really a water resistance UM. But treated

791
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: down feathers have have performed well, and I think is

792
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: is it is a good choice. There's also you know,

793
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: a whole universe of synthetic materials and and you know,

794
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: and I think what it really comes down to for

795
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: the consumer when making this choice is is really the

796
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: amount of water you're going to be exposed to? And

797
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: I think the tricky part with hunting is we're out

798
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: at the worst time of the year to be able

799
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: to answer that question reliably, because it's like, do you

800
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: do know for sure that this fall it's not going

801
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: to rain ever when you're out, you know, or even

802
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: when you get into November and December, right, I mean

803
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: at least where we are. I mean it's it's very well,

804
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: might you know rain in December here? Um? But the

805
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: question is, you know, is your even if it rains,

806
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: is your bag really likely to get soaked? You know?

807
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: And I think if it is, you know whether in

808
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: your pack it's going to get soaked or in your tent,

809
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: then synthetic remains the This this sort of safer choice.

810
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: I think if if you have can have some confidence

811
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: that you'll be able to keep your bag relatively dry.

812
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: Thin downs natural properties are still tough to beat. So

813
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: it's it's a hard still answer of a hard question

814
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: to answer in absolutes the synthetic installation. Why does it

815
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: perform so well when it's wet. It's hydrophobic, so it

816
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't want water, It doesn't want to absorb water. Okay,

817
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: So therefore you still, even if you soak your bag,

818
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: you're still going to have some heat retention value with that,

819
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: Whereas if you were even the treated down, if that

820
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 1: was to get completely soaked, um, it would not retain

821
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: any here. Yeah, correct, you know, and we've all experienced this, right,

822
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: like been get caught out, you know, in the rain

823
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: and a puff jacket, say, and a down puff jacket,

824
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: and it just the puff is gone when it's wet, right,

825
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: And you know, again what creates insulating value in clothing

826
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: and sleeping bags is air is just trapped air. So

827
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, if you're if you're down, puff jacket just

828
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: completely loses its loft. It's essentially lost its insulating power.

829
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: And on the other hand, you know, we all have

830
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: been out there in a synthetic jacket and had it

831
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: got wet and still had you remained kind of remarkably

832
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: lofty and and that ability to retain some loft when

833
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: wet is where you're getting some warmth when wet from

834
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: a from a synthetic insulation. Yeah, I certainly as far

835
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: as my is like personal plan for that migrated and

836
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: this is a while ago, but definitely away from synthetics,

837
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: even when I was going to Alaska a lot and

838
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: just being like, you know what, I can use a

839
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: completely waterproof stuff stack. Then it can be in my backpack,

840
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: which can have another waterproof lining or maybe a rain

841
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 1: cover over it, and it just doesn't come out until

842
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: it's inside of the tent, you know. And that's kind

843
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: of been the way that I've I've handled that situation

844
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: and mostly just doing it going that route because of

845
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: the weight. But I think now, is it true? Can

846
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: you almost get just as light in a synthet in

847
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: some of the new synthetic materials as you can in

848
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: the high end down? Yep? It gets closer all the time,

849
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: you know, But I think a way maybe to look

850
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: at it, as you know, if you sort of go

851
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: out to the extreme, what what does a high altitude

852
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: not in her carry today? And it's still a down bag.

853
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: So if you're looking for you know, minus four d

854
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 1: degree performance. In other words, you know, end you want

855
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: the smallest packing, lightest weight bag at those kind of temperatures,

856
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: down is still leading the way out in those extremes.

857
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: But you know, again, just thinking about it in terms

858
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: of value for the consumer, um down is expensive and

859
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: uh and if you don't need minus forty degree performance

860
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: and you know you want um, you know, want to

861
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: hedge the bat a little bit around things getting wet,

862
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: like you know you're not you know, you you're worried

863
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: that maybe that you know you're gonna forget to seal

864
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: the roll top on that on your stuff sack, you honest,

865
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: or or or you know, water is gonna you're sleeping

866
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: with a tarp, you know, or you're in a floorless

867
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: tent and in a super ultra light kind of situation

868
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: or something, and groundwater may get on your bag. Synthetic

869
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: can be a great versatile and and a little bit

870
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: less expensive alternative. Yeah, I just bought sleeping bags for

871
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: my two kids and they were synthetic. Saved me a

872
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: couple hundred dollars at least, you know, could could you

873
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: give a quick run down of like Phil powers A

874
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: lot of times you'll see like you whichever. I was

875
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: looking at a UM sleeping bag the other day and

876
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: it comes in different options of phil powers and I'm like, well,

877
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: can you give a quick Yeah, that's a good question,

878
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: because I like, just because I sold sleeping bags, I

879
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: have a good understanding of it. But I think right

880
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: on the heels of phil power too, you can roll

881
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 1: into sort of like temperature ratings and uh, that would

882
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: be a good way to finish this out. Yeah. So

883
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: so philip power is is kind of back to what

884
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: I was saying about that this. So, first of all,

885
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: it applies to down although personally I would love to

886
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: see the industry move to more of a universal standard

887
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: there that included synthetic um and we're actually contemplating that

888
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: a little bit and how we might go about that.

889
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: But you know, phil power applies to down feathers and

890
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 1: kind of comes back to that that stiff little spine

891
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: that's in the down feather and kind of its ability

892
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: to create some volume around itself. So the most desirable

893
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: down feathers are the ones that occupy the most amount

894
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: of airspace with the least amount of weight. You know,

895
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: So if the airspace is what makes insulation UM that

896
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense, right You You want the

897
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: the lightest weight bag possible that has the most loft possible,

898
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: so I'm you know, simultaneously a lot aloft very little weight.

899
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: So and then the way the foot power numbers work

900
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: is the higher the number, the higher that ability to

901
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: kind of make volume per weight. So when you get

902
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: into the seven fifty eight D and above, which gets

903
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: pretty exotic range, that's a pretty special and pretty rare

904
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: little down feather that is creating this awesome little volume

905
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: of air around it with very little weight, you know.

906
00:52:54,560 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: And and because those those feathers are relatively special, um,

907
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: that drives up the cost quite a bit because that's

908
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 1: you know, hand picking out the most perfect little down

909
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: feathers and uh and then organizing them by their ability

910
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: to sort of create volume. And the ones you'll end

911
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: up the most with the most of are you know,

912
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: at the lower end of that range. And that kind

913
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: of range. A good way for me to understand it's

914
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: always worked is like, if you imagined three, let's just

915
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: take three different film powers. And if you took three

916
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: glass jars, say like a court sized jar, and you

917
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: took um, just pick your favorite unit of measurement. But

918
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: let's just say like an ounce each different type of feather.

919
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: You had an ounce of six fifty and ounce of

920
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: seven fifty and then ounce of nine hundred. It's the

921
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: same amount of weight. But when you put them into

922
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: that glass jar and separate ones, the six fifties gonna

923
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: go up. I'm just making these numbers up. But let's

924
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: just say two inches, the seven fifties gonna go up

925
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: four inches, and then the nine is gonna go up

926
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: six inches. It's still weighs the same, but you've got

927
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: literally three times the amount of loft or fill in

928
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: that n jar versus the six fifty jar. And again

929
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: those are hypothetical, made up numbers, but that's basically how

930
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: it works. Like for the same amount of way, you're

931
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: getting a whole bunch more loft, which should make the

932
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: bag warmer, right, yes, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, And

933
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: just remembering that that that loft is exactly what your

934
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: insulation is, that's what makes warmth to the question of

935
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: the ratings, So that gets pretty wonky. And this is

936
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: another rare area where Nemo and other specialty brands, UM

937
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: and some of our retail partners are really trying to

938
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: think if there's a if there's a better wave for

939
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: the customer to to kind of organize this stuff. But today,

940
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: UM we rate temperatures by three different scales, T comfort,

941
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: T limit, and TE extreme And this is pretty nerdy,

942
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: but essentially it's it's related to your metabolism and how

943
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: you sleep at night. So a tea comfort rating is

944
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: is based on you having to say, a slower metabolism

945
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: and more likely to sleep cold, and a te limit

946
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: is you tend to sleep a little warmer, and T

947
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: extreme is actually the temperature at which it's believed is

948
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of the minimum temperature that a human being is

949
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: going to survive. So you know, if if you know

950
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 1: point being, if you know that you tend to sleep cold,

951
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: then you want to be shopping on a tea comfort scale.

952
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: That that's the scale that sort of correlates to to

953
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: focus and you're saying that all bags now will kind

954
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: of have three different numbers on them, it's it gets dicey.

955
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: It's different, it's different by brand. UM in many cases

956
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: two or three of those numbers will be indicated. In

957
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: some cases it's only the T limit. Typically right now,

958
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: men's bags are rated on a temp at scale, and

959
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: women's bags are rated on a T comfort scale, and

960
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: a brand may or may not sort of declare that. Um,

961
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 1: but it's a pretty safe assumption that you know, if

962
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: you're shopping for a men's bag, the rating is based

963
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: on tea limit, and if you're shopping for a woman's

964
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: bag today, um, it's based on tea comfort. And there's

965
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: about it depends where you are in the temperature range.

966
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,919
Speaker 1: This is where it gets just ridiculously walky, but um,

967
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: but generally speaking, it's it's about a ten or fifteen

968
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: degree difference in temperature. So a woman's bag, say, rated

969
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: at thirty degree, is that same exact bag would be

970
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: rated at twenty or a fifteen degree bag for a

971
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: for a quote man um. And you can see where

972
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 1: this gets sticky too, because you know, some women's sleep

973
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: hot at night or cold at night. Some men's sleep

974
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: hot or cold at night. Um. So so correlating it

975
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: to gender doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

976
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 1: It really should be the whole system should be based

977
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: on just kind of how you sleep. Would be a

978
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: lot easier for customers to kind of land in the

979
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: spot where they end up comfortable. Yeah, I've definitely had

980
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: you know, different zero degree bags, and I can I

981
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:11,399
Speaker 1: can tell you from a fact that I sleep way

982
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 1: hotter and some of them than I do the other ones. Yeah,

983
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: it gets, it gets, it gets real sticky. Um, i'd say, all,

984
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, and this is sort of back to something

985
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: we were saying earlier, where you have your placing trust

986
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: in a in a brand when you spend your money, right,

987
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: And I think in any of the brands you named,

988
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: honest or any of the brands, we would all agree

989
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: or kind of you know, iconic especialty brands in this space,

990
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: I think you can trust that they're testing at a

991
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: reliable test agency and those are good. Um, those are good,

992
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: honest published results. But you know, another thing that happens

993
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: is no two bags are exactly the same, and no

994
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: one publishes, including Nemo, no one publishes their bag temperature

995
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: as sixteen point seven nine degrees. You know, we all

996
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: they're all ten degree, fifty degree, twenty degrees. So there's

997
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: a certain amount of rounding that's happening there as well. Um.

998
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: You know, depending on the construction of the bag in

999
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: the insulation down for example, can settle within a bag.

1000
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: You know, so unless you construct a bag to handle that,

1001
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: and unless you take care of your bag and kind

1002
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: of fluff it up and pay attention to this, you

1003
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: can easily have cold spots. You can put a sleeping

1004
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: bag on a pad that doesn't match the insulating value

1005
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: of the sleeping bag, and that you know is an

1006
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: integral part of that sort of insulating envelope around you.

1007
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: So you could have a you could be in a

1008
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: minus forty degree bag and then laying on a sleeping

1009
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: pad that has in our value of one. You're squishing

1010
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: all the insulation below you in that sleeping bag, so

1011
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: it's basically doing nothing below you. And then you've got

1012
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: a in our value that doesn't match that minus four

1013
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: degrees and it could be zero degrees out and you're

1014
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: freezing your butt off. Right, You're thinking, what's wrong with

1015
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: this minus forty degree bag, But it's really a matter

1016
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: of having to pad the matches so it gets it

1017
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: gets wonky. Yeah, yeah, you gotta know how to how

1018
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: to use all that stuff together. Yeah, system, All right,

1019
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a fix it segment. You're gonna throw

1020
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: out a hypothetical scenario. Um, you get to camp, you

1021
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: pack in, you blow up your sleeping pad. You know,

1022
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: you cooked dinner or whatever, you go to get back

1023
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: on your sleeping pad and it's deflated a little bit,

1024
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: So you've got some kind of hole or something in it. Um,

1025
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: where would you start? I guess, you know, let's do

1026
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: a hole first, and then maybe let's say it's leaking

1027
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: from the like the vowel stem type situation. What do

1028
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: you do? God, it's a great question and certainly a

1029
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: real world question. So the first thing I'd want to

1030
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: do is make sure that the valve is in fact

1031
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: operating correctly and closed all the way. It's pretty easy,

1032
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: depending on There's lots of different kinds of sleeping pad

1033
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 1: valves out there, but pretty easy to get a piece

1034
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: of grit, you know, stuck say under an oh ring

1035
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: or caught kind of in the interface of a cap.

1036
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: You know, and that's happened to me before. So I,

1037
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, as much as you can want to kind

1038
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: of disassemble that, inspect it, make sure that it's not

1039
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: just a valve issue. Um, if you're sort of Once

1040
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: you move past that, the challenge then would become trying

1041
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: to locate where that leak is. And I find I

1042
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: have found over the years that most of the time,

1043
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: if I have a puncture in a in a pad

1044
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: in a pretty quiet, quiet environment like out in the

1045
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: back country, if you get everyone to be quiet around you,

1046
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: you just take a minute and sort of move that

1047
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: pad past your face. The combination of kind of feeling

1048
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: the air draft on your cheeks and listening carefully with

1049
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: your ear, I'm usually able to find that. So I

1050
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: kind of do a careful inspection all around see if

1051
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: I could kate where that hole was. Fixing that then

1052
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: will become a matter of do you think you can

1053
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: actually like pinpoint the whole or do you have to

1054
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: then maybe put on some water something to actually see

1055
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: the bubbles you can do that you have like a

1056
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: little soapy water can be great because then you know

1057
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: you've got soapy water on stuff. In my case, I've

1058
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: had pretty good luck. And really it's as much about

1059
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: your ear as it is about the little hairs and

1060
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: nerves on your cheeks. Um, if you kind of move

1061
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: that pad across your face, um, you're going to feel

1062
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: that little draft of air. And actually I find them

1063
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 1: usually able to really kind of zero in on that.

1064
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: And then most of the time, or say many times,

1065
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to when it comes down to

1066
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: once you're in the zone, you're going to be able

1067
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: to visually see, oh, there's a little slice that came

1068
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: from the pocket knife I left in my pocket or

1069
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: my keys or whatever you know, or the or the

1070
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: thorn on the ground or whatever it was. And then

1071
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: you're down to the matter of how you seal that up,

1072
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: and hopefully your pad has with it um some means

1073
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: of doing that, whether that's you know a little bit

1074
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: of like a your thane adhesive or a self adhesive

1075
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: style patch, which would make that pretty straightforward as long

1076
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: as it's small. Otherwise your best bet is going to

1077
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: be hopefully in your kit you've got some other manner

1078
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: of tape, like maybe some duct tape that won't be

1079
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: any sort of tape solution is very unlikely to be

1080
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: a permanent solution, you know, so you're you're still gonna

1081
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: most likely get air seeping out kind of through the

1082
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: yarns of the fabric underneath whatever that. Unless you can

1083
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: get a glue down in there to kind of seal

1084
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: that up, you're going to get a slow leak. So

1085
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, that night might be about sleeping for a

1086
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: couple of hours putting a little bit more air back in.

1087
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: I'd probably want to to bolster that pad with taking

1088
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: some extra kit, like maybe take the foam out of

1089
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: your pack, or take some extra clothing, find some pine bows,

1090
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: some other things you know, that you could put under

1091
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: your pad, And particularly if you know it's late season

1092
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: and you're on frozen ground, on can kind of shore

1093
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: up the insulating power of the pad when you're applying

1094
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: the adhesive or tape or whatever you're doing. Would you

1095
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: do that with the pad completely inflated or deflated. No,

1096
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna want very little air pressure in it because,

1097
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: particularly if it's like an adhesive, it's gonna be pushing

1098
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: air up through that. You know. So if you if

1099
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: you try to put a like a seam and grap

1100
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: like euthane adhesive over that and you have any air

1101
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: persian there, it's just going to be making little air

1102
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: bubbles up through that and sort of spoiling that connection.

1103
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: If you can do all those things, by the way, um,

1104
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: that's pretty sweet too. If you can get a little

1105
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: dab of some manner of glue on there to kind

1106
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: of lock up around where that hole is and then

1107
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: shore that up with some tape. There's no harm in

1108
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: kind of overdoing it. You'd probably have a permanent fix

1109
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: at that point. You may have a permanent fix. Yeah,

1110
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: and you'll know, I mean if you you know, if

1111
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: you make it through the night with you know, no

1112
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 1: very little apparent loss and air pressure, you're probably good

1113
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: to go, right because the next night, um, you know,

1114
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: you only let's say, you only need a pad really

1115
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: to hold air for eight or ten hours at the

1116
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: next Jordan likes to sleep about fourteen hours for most

1117
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: of us. Uh, that tenacious tape from gear Ade is

1118
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: a good uh is goo good tape ye that I

1119
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 1: carry with me that patch pads with before and uh

1120
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Still if you can seal that underneath that

1121
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: just because if you think of the fabric as a

1122
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: we've there's still little air gaps, like through those yarns

1123
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: and things. So even as great as a tape like

1124
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: that is, it can't get kind of down in there

1125
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: to seal up around to all those little yarns. So

1126
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: the best thing is if you can get a glue

1127
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: in there in addition to that. Well, Cam, thank you

1128
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: so much, man, We appreciate your time. We'll let you

1129
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: get out of here. But that was great. I learned

1130
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 1: a lot and uh hopefully Jordan did and everybody else listening,

1131
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: so uh, thank you, and um yeah, let's let's keep

1132
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 1: email on back and forth and come up with another

1133
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: list of fun, you know, techy gear topics to talk

1134
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: about and we'll have you back on here in a

1135
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: little bit. Sounds great, Well, thanks so much, guys. Truly

1136
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: an honor and a lot of fun. All right, thanks

1137
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: camp here camp cheers