WEBVTT - Getting Employees to Go “All In” on Leadership

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you hear it over and over again from CEOs.

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<v Speaker 2>The most important asset a business has is its people.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's the secret to building and maintaining a successful team.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a question that our next guest ventures to answer

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<v Speaker 3>in his latest book. Mike Mcalowitz is an entrepreneur who's

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<v Speaker 3>founded and sold two companies, OMC Systems and the data

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<v Speaker 3>forensics firm PG Lewis and Associates. He now owns seven

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<v Speaker 3>more businesses and he's written seven other books. His latest

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<v Speaker 3>book is called All In How Great Leaders Build Unstoppable Teams.

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<v Speaker 3>He joins us on Zoom from New Jersey. Mike, good

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<v Speaker 3>to have you with us this afternoon. Congratulations on the

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<v Speaker 3>new book. Why I'm curious why you've written six other books,

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<v Speaker 3>seven other books? Excuse me, why is this one your

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<v Speaker 3>eighth book? Because building the right team seems like one

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<v Speaker 3>of the most basic things an entrepreneur has to do

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<v Speaker 3>to get it right.

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<v Speaker 1>Carol, Tim is a joy to be with you, so

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me. The reason I wrote this book

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<v Speaker 1>now is particularly the COVID pandemic. It shifted what was

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<v Speaker 1>prior desires into expectations. We wanted a flexible work schedule,

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<v Speaker 1>we wanted the ability to work remotely, but now it's expected,

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<v Speaker 1>and as leaders, we need to change that in other dynamics.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, it's funny. One of the things I've

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<v Speaker 2>thought top of mind that I wanted to ask you is,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the first leadership mistake you've made in your life?

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<v Speaker 2>You've built, sold companies, you've got a bunch more. What

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<v Speaker 2>was the first big mistake that you made as a leader.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, it's embarrassing, so thanks for starting me off with this,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're welcome. What I did once when I had

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<v Speaker 1>my forensics business, we were going to achieve ten million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars in revenue if we pulled the right strings and

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<v Speaker 1>made the right moves. I spent a day calculating the numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>I came out of my office. We were brick and

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<v Speaker 1>mortar at the time, and there was thirty of my

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<v Speaker 1>employees there. I called everyone, and together, I truly did play.

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<v Speaker 1>I have the tiger in the background for this momentous moment. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and announced we're new ten million dollars of revenue, expecting

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<v Speaker 1>great fanfare, and there were silence, people slumped back to

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<v Speaker 1>their desks. My colleague Patty came up to me and said, Mike,

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<v Speaker 1>if we achieved ten million dollars, you get the bigger house,

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<v Speaker 1>you get the new car. But why should we care?

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<v Speaker 1>Don't you care about our dreams? And that became an

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<v Speaker 1>epiphany for me is that the vision for a company

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<v Speaker 1>is inevitably the vision for the leadership team or the leaders,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's rarely the vision for the colleagues that work there,

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<v Speaker 1>the employees. So to set that as an expectation is

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<v Speaker 1>unfair and unreasonable. What we have to know as leaders

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<v Speaker 1>is what is the individual dreams for our colleagues. I

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<v Speaker 1>have one colleague who wants to buy a house, another

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<v Speaker 1>one who wants to learn to play guitar, someone who

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<v Speaker 1>wants to spend more time with their family. And once

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<v Speaker 1>I started understanding their dreams and started prioritizing those visions,

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<v Speaker 1>then reciprocy kicked in and they prioritized my vision. So

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<v Speaker 1>we have to work on our goals in concert. It's

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<v Speaker 1>not just the company's goals, it's everyone's goals.

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<v Speaker 3>What would you say to somebody who said that all

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<v Speaker 3>sounds great in a company that doesn't exist and doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>make profits Because somebody who you know has a priority

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<v Speaker 3>or a dream of learning how to play guitar or

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<v Speaker 3>spending less time working. That isn't a goal that necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>aligns with you getting to ten million dollars in revenue.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it does sound a little kumbaya, admittedly, but

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<v Speaker 1>what I found is my job is not to facilitate

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<v Speaker 1>the guitar lessons. My goal is not to pay for

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<v Speaker 1>their home. It's just to remind them that dreams important

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<v Speaker 1>and that their job is a means to achieving that.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I do some block and tackling, I will be

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<v Speaker 1>flexible on schedules, But when I prioritize their dreams, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not expecting them to compromise their work effort. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>I find that most people double down their work effort

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<v Speaker 1>because they see that I know their work is not

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<v Speaker 1>just about caring for the company, It's about caring for

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<v Speaker 1>their dream. So it really is reciprocity, and that's human nature.

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<v Speaker 1>When we care for someone else, they inherently will care

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<v Speaker 1>back for us.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, like, how important is compensation in this equation slash

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<v Speaker 3>equity in a company that you're building?

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<v Speaker 1>So compensation of course is important, but often money is

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<v Speaker 1>a demotivator, which is kind of surprising. And what I

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<v Speaker 1>mean by this is if someone feels they're being shortchanged,

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<v Speaker 1>not paid equitably, they're going to resist that and they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be frustrated. I've never found though I can't

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<v Speaker 1>think one case teim or I've given someone a raise

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<v Speaker 1>and as a result of the raise, their work performance increased.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe for a week or two, they put a little

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<v Speaker 1>more effort in, but we go back to this thermostatic homeostasis,

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<v Speaker 1>we go back to our own standards. What I found

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<v Speaker 1>is we need to compensate people fairly and appropriately for

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<v Speaker 1>the work they do competitively, without a question. But the

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<v Speaker 1>real motivator is are we helping them achieve their own visions?

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<v Speaker 1>Are they doing something of significance that maybe speaks meaningful

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<v Speaker 1>or meaningfully to their life, maybe part of their life's mission.

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<v Speaker 1>And it made it sound kind of weird. You could

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<v Speaker 1>have a business that manufactures toilet paper and you know

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<v Speaker 1>who whom name who wants to associated with that. But

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<v Speaker 1>maybe some of the employees are concerned about the ecology

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<v Speaker 1>and the environment and the impact that has there. And

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<v Speaker 1>if we can correlate what we're doing to be of

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<v Speaker 1>service to that greater mission. Those are ultimately the greater motivators.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Mike, would you be cool like if an employee

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<v Speaker 2>came in and I'm listening to what you're saying, because

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<v Speaker 2>I have actually a brother who says this. He's like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't live to work, I work to live. He's

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<v Speaker 2>done very well and he's been like a stellar employer

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<v Speaker 2>employee throughout his life. But it's kind of interesting he'll

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<v Speaker 2>say that I don't work to live, I live to work.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I was at a conference once I was presented.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh right, no, yeah, not live to work, I work

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<v Speaker 2>to live.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, I know, I understand what you're saying. I was

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<v Speaker 1>at a conference once and I was presenting there there

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<v Speaker 1>was a couple hundred folks in the audience. I asked

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<v Speaker 1>the audience to say, who here is an A player?

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<v Speaker 1>People who work to work? And every single hand went up.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I said what percentage of population are A

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<v Speaker 1>players to the same group, and two percent was shouted out.

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<v Speaker 1>Five ten percent was the most gracious number. And isn't

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<v Speaker 1>this a strange statistical anomaly? Everyone in this room is

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<v Speaker 1>an A player, yet almost known in the population is

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<v Speaker 1>how could this be? And what I wanted to reveal

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<v Speaker 1>there is everyone is an a player in waiting. I

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<v Speaker 1>believe that everyone has a talent of some sort inside ourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>It may not be with my business, it may not

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<v Speaker 1>be in the company that I lead. And when the

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<v Speaker 1>talent doesn't reside within my company, that I can't help

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<v Speaker 1>them flourish. It is my responsibility to pointment and direction

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<v Speaker 1>that will serve them. At the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>we're all here on a human journey, and yes, we

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<v Speaker 1>want to have a profitable, healthy business. It's absolutely a priority.

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<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, we can be of service

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<v Speaker 1>to people. And sometimes someone may not be sued for

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<v Speaker 1>our organization, but I will help find them somewhere where

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<v Speaker 1>they're more suitable. It will have a more joyous, more

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<v Speaker 1>fulfilling work experience.

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<v Speaker 2>If we may go back to also what you were

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<v Speaker 2>talking about, if you give somebody a raise, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>like that all of a sudden there were working more

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<v Speaker 2>are giving more. Having said that, it's an interesting time.

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<v Speaker 2>We've spent a lot of time talking about the labor

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<v Speaker 2>market because of a lot of data points that have

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<v Speaker 2>come in as of late, and it's interesting. Sometimes the

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<v Speaker 2>dynamics of people saying, well, wait, we're paying workers more,

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<v Speaker 2>and like it's a bad thing because it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>cost companies more. It's going to hurt their margins. And

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like for a long time, workers who have

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<v Speaker 2>helped create really wealthy companies have kind of been shortchanged.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I'm trying to understand the balance of really

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<v Speaker 2>appreciating your workers, not just paying the minimum or what

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<v Speaker 2>have you, but really letting them share in the gains

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<v Speaker 2>of a company financially.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I one hundred percent agree. In fact, our own

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<v Speaker 1>organization here we do profit sharing. Twenty percent of the

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<v Speaker 1>corporate profits go out on an equal distribution to every employee.

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<v Speaker 1>What I mean by that is, if you work part time,

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<v Speaker 1>or you work full time, or your salary is different

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<v Speaker 1>than someone else's, you're still getting an equal piece of

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<v Speaker 1>that high and it can be pretty significant. But I

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<v Speaker 1>also found that when it comes to conversation and bonuses

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<v Speaker 1>and the monetary component, we have to realize that there's

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<v Speaker 1>additionally something that serves satisfaction if you will in their job. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>we have to offer a competitive salary. We have to

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<v Speaker 1>care for people, there's no question about that. But there's

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<v Speaker 1>something more that's often left out, and it's giving people

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<v Speaker 1>a degree of autonomy, a sense of control, the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to personalize their work. I think the traditional mindset for

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<v Speaker 1>business was we were matching people's talents to titles, meaning

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<v Speaker 1>we're putting them in the silo. You are the receptionist

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<v Speaker 1>or you are the salesperson, and you have to fit

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<v Speaker 1>in all these roles. But what I found is people

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<v Speaker 1>are good at specific talents or tasks I should say,

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<v Speaker 1>but not naturally everything that fulfills a title. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think organizations should look at a more dynamic structure. I

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<v Speaker 1>considered a web like structure as opposed to the traditional

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<v Speaker 1>pyramid structure of an organizational chart. And we should match

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<v Speaker 1>people's talents to tasks. And so now someone that maybe

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<v Speaker 1>is serving in your sales role and is great at

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<v Speaker 1>closing the deal right, also can serve a part of

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<v Speaker 1>the reception component of greeting customers and so forth, And

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<v Speaker 1>maybe that person was in the reception area can also

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<v Speaker 1>be helping fulfill some area in the space in the

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<v Speaker 1>accounting space, because that's where they have talent. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's what we need to do in addition to paying competitively.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure, interesting all right, hey, Mike, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>continue the conversation. We do a little bit of news

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<v Speaker 2>and come right back to you. Mike mccallowitz is with

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<v Speaker 2>us his new book, All In, How Great Leaders Build

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<v Speaker 2>Unstoppable Teams. Will continue in just a moment.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to get back to Mike mccallowitz, an entrepreneur

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<v Speaker 3>who's founded and sold a couple companies. He owns seven

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<v Speaker 3>more businesses. He's written seven other books. His latest book

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<v Speaker 3>is called All In, How Great Leaders Build Unstoppable Teams.

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<v Speaker 3>He joins us once again on Zoom from New Jersey.

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<v Speaker 3>MIKEL want to ask We're going to ask about some

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<v Speaker 3>leaders in a minute, but before we get to that,

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<v Speaker 3>I just want to ask about building a team like

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<v Speaker 3>you described to us earlier in an environment of hybrid

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<v Speaker 3>and remote work. How do you do that?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we have to give that tactile experience whenever we can.

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<v Speaker 1>We're missing out on that. And they talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>water cooler's conversations, and what was so important about those

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<v Speaker 1>was not necessarily ideation or concepts or business ideas that

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<v Speaker 1>came out of that, but trust came out of that.

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<v Speaker 1>You and I would talk at the water cooler and

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<v Speaker 1>share stories and that builds connection. So when people are

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<v Speaker 1>in a remote environment, we need to bring that about.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it's not always possible to bring people in. If

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<v Speaker 1>you can orderly have a meetup, that's a wonderful thing,

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<v Speaker 1>but otherwise encourage that social time, actually make that part

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<v Speaker 1>of the agenda, because without that connection, we won't have

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<v Speaker 1>the trust. Trust fosters growing a business together, collectively ideating,

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<v Speaker 1>brainstorming and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's interesting you lay out, you know, ideas

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<v Speaker 2>and you talk about strong leadership and different things that

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<v Speaker 2>a great leader needs to be doing. Can this apply

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<v Speaker 2>to all kinds of companies? Mike and I ask that

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<v Speaker 2>because I think when you run a small business, which

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<v Speaker 2>we often talk about being the backbone of our economy,

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<v Speaker 2>you know you're just getting by. So when you think

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<v Speaker 2>about this, is this for small, mid sized companies, large

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<v Speaker 2>capca is it for everybody? Or would you concede that

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be a little bit harder if you're

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<v Speaker 2>running a two or three man operation.

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<v Speaker 1>It's different. I don't know if it's harder. I worked

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<v Speaker 1>with everything from the University of Chicago doing research on this,

0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.560
<v Speaker 1>their Medical Center, which is a larger organization, down to

0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.920
<v Speaker 1>micro enterprises. A laundry mat that had two employees that

0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.040
<v Speaker 1>were just managing the machines and so forth. But we're

0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.680
<v Speaker 1>wearing multiple hats. What happens in larger businesses we can

0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.920
<v Speaker 1>have a more defined role, and in a small business

0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.520
<v Speaker 1>we need more flexibility. At the end of the day,

0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.400
<v Speaker 1>we want to invoke a concept called psychological ownership, and

0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.400
<v Speaker 1>this works in businesses of the most smallest size, the

0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.240
<v Speaker 1>micro enterprise, to the largest businesses. And psychological ownership is

0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.080
<v Speaker 1>the feeling that we own the business even if we

0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.840
<v Speaker 1>legally don't. So just just a quick riff on this,

0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.119
<v Speaker 1>I own some stock and Ford not a stock tip necessarily,

0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.400
<v Speaker 1>but when I drive buy the Ford factory, I don't

0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.719
<v Speaker 1>feel like I own that factory, at least a part

0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.120
<v Speaker 1>of it. I don't point to the bricks on the

0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.840
<v Speaker 1>wall and say their mine. Conversely, I own a car

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.920
<v Speaker 1>and I treat that like it's my quote unquote baby. Now,

0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 1>the funny thing is I don't legally own it. The

0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.120
<v Speaker 1>bank does. I'm making installments. And when it comes to

0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.360
<v Speaker 1>our employees, we can invoke that sense of ownership without

0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.200
<v Speaker 1>necessarily having a legal ownership. And how you do it

0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.319
<v Speaker 1>is you give people, Autonomy, the ability to give direction

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.079
<v Speaker 1>and control over the outcome of the roles. So instead

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.760
<v Speaker 1>of micromanaging, we need to move to outcome management. Where

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.640
<v Speaker 1>do we want to go? And encourage our colleague to

0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.560
<v Speaker 1>help navigate the path there. Yes, we may have best practices,

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 1>but they can navigate their own path. Also the ability

0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.120
<v Speaker 1>to personalize it, make it their own. And lastly, gain

0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.760
<v Speaker 1>intimate knowledge about what they're doing. If we can facilitate

0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.920
<v Speaker 1>the three elements, they will excel in big or small companies.

0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>All right, So we're listening to what you're saying. We

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>were thinking you must have some thoughts on you know,

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 2>good leaders, good companies. We're gonna throw some names at you.

0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Elon Musk good leader.

0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.520
<v Speaker 1>Maybe maybe not my type of leader, but you know,

0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:16.160
<v Speaker 1>getting results. So there's the statistical measurements and the data

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.920
<v Speaker 1>doesn't lie. But there's also the humanness and all my

0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.680
<v Speaker 1>research points too. You want to be a you want

0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 1>to be a human to lead humans, and the more

0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>humanness you bring to the table, the better the long

0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 1>term impact.

0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 3>What about someone like Read Hastings, who is the founder

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:38.200
<v Speaker 3>and co CEO now of Netflix. Netflix is known for

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 3>having a very strange culture. I think for a lot

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 3>of outsiders, Read Hastings has talked a lot about treating

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:50.440
<v Speaker 3>employees like they're on an elite professional sports team and

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.800
<v Speaker 3>then cutting those employees every season who don't actually make

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.679
<v Speaker 3>the cut. Yeah, what do you think of that?

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well it does sound ruthless, But I do want

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.959
<v Speaker 1>to share that cutting does not mean destroying. I think

0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 1>when we hear that someone gets cut, that we've cut

0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 1>off their opportunity. But sometimes someone does not fit even

0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.559
<v Speaker 1>my little company here, I won't have twenty employees my

0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 1>current organization, and we at least recently let someone go.

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 1>They weren't performing well as organization, but her dream was

0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.680
<v Speaker 1>to be a firefighter, and so we moveles on and

0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.920
<v Speaker 1>we helped her pursue that. One year later, she's performing

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.680
<v Speaker 1>extremely well in her new role as a firefighter in Georgia,

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 1>and she even came back to our office during one

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 1>of our retreats on our own dime to help us out.

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 1>So I can't speak to Read Hasting's nature of why

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 1>he's terminating people. I don't know necessarily if it's as

0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.800
<v Speaker 1>ruthless as we see. Sometimes letting someone go is the

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.520
<v Speaker 1>best thing you can do for them to find what

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 1>they really are called to do. Yeah.

0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 2>No, I think that's a really really smart point and

0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.160
<v Speaker 2>something very thoughtful that sometimes you got to just let

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>somebody go. Having said that, I'm not going to ask

0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:59.080
<v Speaker 2>you to say like, dislike, but sorry. When we look

0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 2>at the political life landscape, and one of the things

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 2>that is definitely on global investors' minds is what happens

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.520
<v Speaker 2>in our November political race. So when you think about

0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 2>what are likely to be a race or what is

0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.160
<v Speaker 2>likely to be a race once again between Joe Biden

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and Donald Trump, what are some thoughtful things about each

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 2>of them, maybe as leaders that you think might be

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.960
<v Speaker 2>helpful to our audience or just the audience at large.

0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.680
<v Speaker 2>And just got about a minute or so left hair

0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:26.040
<v Speaker 2>a minute.

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's great influence out of concise, clear statements and goals.

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 1>So the leader who speaks clearly, even though it may

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 1>not speak to the desires of everyone, the clearer the presenter,

0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.640
<v Speaker 1>the clear the speaker, usually the more we trust them. Ironically,

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.640
<v Speaker 1>I think the leader who also shows a humbleness has

0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.920
<v Speaker 1>an advantage to show that they aren't perfect. So this

0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 1>perception of being pristine and we get nothing wrong. Ultimately

0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 1>people say there's something hidden behind that, and we become

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 1>we question that individual. So there's this balance, and I

0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 1>think those leaders could represent not collectively, but independently parts

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.680
<v Speaker 1>of that. This curt concise way to present, but also

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>another one maybe shows a humbleness or a humanness that's

0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 1>very appealing. The person who packages the combo wins.

0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.040
<v Speaker 2>And I would just to build on that. Because your

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 2>book is about great leaders building unstoppable teams, I think

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.960
<v Speaker 2>it's fair to extrapolate off of what you just said

0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.080
<v Speaker 2>that to also look at candidates and their teams around

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.600
<v Speaker 2>them to kind of get an idea of what an

0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>administration would look like or leadership would like. That just

0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.280
<v Speaker 2>ten to fifteen seconds. I hope I'm not putting words

0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:37.800
<v Speaker 2>in your mouth.

0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 1>You're not, and that's absolutely right. The people that stay

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 1>engaged with a leader are representative of that leader. So

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.000
<v Speaker 1>look at who the long term followers are, and there's

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.120
<v Speaker 1>a good way to judge what that leader's character is

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:49.560
<v Speaker 1>all about.

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Mike, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much,

0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 2>really appreciate it. Mike mccalowitz joining us here, as we said,

0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.800
<v Speaker 2>has sold companies, still owns a bunch and runs a

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 2>bunch of businesses, his new book out All in, How

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Great Leaders Build Unstoppable Teams. Joining us on Zoom in

0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:06.160
<v Speaker 2>New Jersey,