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Speaker 1: Hey, Sanny and Smantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I never told you a production

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Speaker 2: by her Radio. And for today's classic, we are bringing

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Speaker 2: back part one of a two parter that we did.

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Speaker 2: It was an unexpected two parter which happens often with

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Speaker 2: Bridget about Hugh Hefner, and I felt that this was

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Speaker 2: important to bring back after our recent Sex and the

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Speaker 2: City happy hour that featured Hugh Hefner and how his

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Speaker 2: reputation has changed over the years. And it was a

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Speaker 2: big conversation and that's why it became two parter. So

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Speaker 2: please enjoy part one of this class episode. Hey, this

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Speaker 2: is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffone never told

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Speaker 2: you a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: And today we have a very special episode. I know

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Speaker 3: when we have episodes with Bridget and I feel like

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Speaker 3: this is a hint. We always talk about so many

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Speaker 3: things that we're always like, Okay, we have to come

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Speaker 3: back and we have to do an episode on it. Well,

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Speaker 3: today we are keeping our word and we have actually

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Speaker 3: brought back our fabulous friend.

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Speaker 1: I feel like she's.

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Speaker 3: An expert of all things like pop culture. I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: put that out there as part of your title Bridget,

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Speaker 3: I'll say that we are actually coming on a subject

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Speaker 3: that we were like, yes, we need to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So first and foremost, welcome Bridget.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: I'm so excited to be back. And this was like

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Speaker 5: the last time I was chatting with you too, we

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Speaker 5: were like, oh, we should talk about this, and I'm

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Speaker 5: happy that we are actually doing it. I'm having that

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Speaker 5: it's actually here. It is, it's happening, we're doing it.

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Speaker 1: It was too big. We could not do this.

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Speaker 3: And what we are talking about, we're talking about the

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Speaker 3: infamy and overall impact of who the legend who I mean,

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Speaker 3: we can't deny this of Hugh Hefner. So before we start,

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Speaker 3: we're going to put this at the very top of

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Speaker 3: content warning, trigger warning, so many warnings, and I don't

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Speaker 3: even know if I'm going to put all of the

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Speaker 3: things I should be tagged in here, so maybe we'll

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Speaker 3: have to come back, But just be aware we're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about rape. We're talking about exploitation, death, suicide, murder, grooming,

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Speaker 3: drug use, trafficking, and even human trafficking. So I think

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of big conversations to be had just

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Speaker 3: you know, adult topics. So if you're listening to this

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Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, this is a great listen on

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Speaker 3: a comute while I'm going to pick up my kids

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Speaker 3: and you have your kids in the car, I would

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Speaker 3: probably pause, definitely, because it's going to be explicit. I

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Speaker 3: do think the lessons that have been left in the

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Speaker 3: aftermath of Hugh Hefner and what he has done should

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Speaker 3: be talked about for generations of many marginalized people. I

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Speaker 3: think it's a big thing. And whether you want to

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Speaker 3: call it a warning label essentially, like you want to

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Speaker 3: warn others about practices like this, or whether you want

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Speaker 3: to talk about it as a historical context of how

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Speaker 3: it really influenced us, This is a conversation to be had.

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Speaker 3: So Bridget and I have two different perspectives, right, I

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Speaker 3: think we just talked about this earlier.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I agree that this is not the

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Speaker 5: episode to be in your car with the kids. But

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Speaker 5: what's funny is that so preparing for this episode was

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Speaker 5: honestly almost like a casthartic emotional personal experience because I

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Speaker 5: don't know about y'all, but I watched the show Girls

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Speaker 5: next Door on e about what's going on on the

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Speaker 5: Playboy when I was in like junior high, high school.

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Speaker 4: And so what's interesting to me is that.

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Speaker 5: That show took great pains to make the Playboy lifestyle

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Speaker 5: look kind of like wholesome and squeaky clean and fun

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Speaker 5: for the whole family.

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Speaker 4: So I don't think I was the only.

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Speaker 5: Junior high or high school girl watching that show as

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Speaker 5: a youth. But now the conversation really kind of looking

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Speaker 5: back and being like, well, what was going on in

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Speaker 5: that house? That conversation is very mature and adults and

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Speaker 5: has very mature themes, but it's so interesting how it

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Speaker 5: was framed us wholesome and squeaky clean then and now

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Speaker 5: the actual reality is like, oh no, this was not wholesome,

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Speaker 5: nor it could not have been less squeaky clean. And

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Speaker 5: it's interesting going back and looking to see, like how

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Speaker 5: big of an impact that had on probably a lot

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Speaker 5: of us.

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Speaker 1: Right, I agree with you. I will say, as I

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Speaker 1: was going to ask this.

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Speaker 3: Question to both of y'all, when did you learn about

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Speaker 3: or have your first encounter with Playboy magazine specifically or Playboy?

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Speaker 1: Did y'all ever have one? Or what did you become

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Speaker 1: aware of it?

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Speaker 2: I have never encountered a Playboy magazine. I think that

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Speaker 2: I was aware of it. Surprised to know one through

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Speaker 2: like pop culture of Hugh Heffner's appeared in a bunch

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Speaker 2: of like The Simpsons and things like that. I think

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Speaker 2: that was my knowledge of it, was that I was

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Speaker 2: aware that it was a big thing.

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Speaker 1: There are like multiple.

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Speaker 2: Instances of movies where women dress up as like Playboy bunnies.

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Speaker 2: I think that was much more my realm of knowing

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Speaker 2: what Playboy and all about Hugh Hefner was, his cameos,

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Speaker 2: his multiple cameos he did in several things, and then

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Speaker 2: I mean it was just embedded in so much of

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Speaker 2: our pop culture for a while, so like I knew

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Speaker 2: about it, but I never actually.

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Speaker 4: Seen a Playboy magazin or anything like that. I just

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Speaker 4: knew it was a big.

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Speaker 1: Deal, right right, Yeah, I think what about you weregid?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Similarly to Annie, I can't think of a I

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Speaker 5: can't conjure up a memory of me like holding a

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Speaker 5: Playboy magazine or stumbling across a Playboy magazine. But also

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Speaker 5: I can't think of a time when I was not

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Speaker 5: aware of it in the culture. And I think it

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Speaker 5: is such an interesting point Annie about the cameos on

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Speaker 5: family friendly shows and things like that.

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Speaker 4: How and the reference is.

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Speaker 5: How that creates a culture where it's commonplace, where I

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Speaker 5: can't even remember a time where it wasn't something that

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Speaker 5: was on my radar. But I yet I have no

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Speaker 5: idea the first time that it actually was on my radar.

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Speaker 4: It was just sort of always there.

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Speaker 3: Right Interestingly, like for me, I guess maybe coming from

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Speaker 3: South Korea, like literally being born and raised, I wasn't

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Speaker 3: really aware of all that. I came into the US,

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Speaker 3: and I knew porn existed, obviously, that was a thing.

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Speaker 3: I knew that there were probably there were magazines. And

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember when the big lawsuit happened in

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Speaker 3: which uh they made all of those types of magazines

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Speaker 3: be behind like either dark or black plastic, because it

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Speaker 3: was I think in my lifetime.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was in my lifetime.

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Speaker 5: I can confirm that it was because I have clear

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Speaker 5: memories of going into stores and being like, ooh, what's

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Speaker 5: that magazine right where they were.

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Speaker 3: Not so stuff like that was fairly new, like at

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Speaker 3: the point like oh okay. But I also do remember

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Speaker 3: I have a very clear like I don't think it

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Speaker 3: was a Playboy magazine. I can't remember because I've now

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Speaker 3: started to use some of like things that I've seen

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Speaker 3: on TVs, like is that my memory or is that

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Speaker 3: a TV? But I do have a very clear memory

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Speaker 3: of a friend of mine when I was in I

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Speaker 3: want to say, the second or third grade, in which

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Speaker 3: her dad, oh like had a subscription to the pay

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Speaker 3: per view channel of Playboy magazine, like specifically their channel,

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Speaker 3: and like turning it on because you know, when you're

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Speaker 3: at like each other's house, you're doing naughty things.

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Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, look at this, look what my

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Speaker 1: dad has.

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Speaker 3: And I was like officially scared of the man after

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Speaker 3: the back actually, but that has a whole different thing

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Speaker 3: of trauma for me.

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Speaker 1: But like he like it was there.

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Speaker 3: It existed in our movie, were like, wow, people watch

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Speaker 3: this because I came from a very like conservative Christian home,

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Speaker 3: so none of that existed in my world. So to

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Speaker 3: go to someone else's house. And by the way, he

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Speaker 3: was a very revered doctor in our town. I don't

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Speaker 3: think I told anybody I was very good a keeping

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Speaker 3: sickcrest apparently, but anyway, but that was kind of like

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Speaker 3: my first interaction of what this was. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: and this is when they were and we're going to

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Speaker 3: talk a little more about all the things started doing porn,

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Speaker 3: which they always denied was a thing for them, Like

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Speaker 3: that's something that they were like, Oh, we're not poor magazine.

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Speaker 3: We are a gentleman's magazine, which yes, we're going to

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Speaker 3: get into. But that's one of my first memories of like,

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Speaker 3: this is a big deal and what is this and

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Speaker 3: the level that they had, especially in a man's world,

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Speaker 3: and my view on the men the man after say that,

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Speaker 3: which is a whole different conversation.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 5: I mean, so, it's so funny that your first like

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Speaker 5: your first interaction with Playboy was actual like pornography that

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Speaker 5: was like watched on a channel that it's like a

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Speaker 5: pornographic channel, because I don't think I could tell you

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Speaker 5: that I understood that Playboy produced pornography until quite a

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Speaker 5: bit later, like.

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Speaker 4: In junior high.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if how it was in y'all's school,

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Speaker 5: but like you, people had the Playboy symbol on there,

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Speaker 5: like like girls smoked around with the Playboy symbol.

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Speaker 4: On their shirt, right, it was it was a common

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Speaker 4: thing for the white girls to like tan.

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Speaker 5: And then like I guess I don't know if they

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Speaker 5: were like putting like a cutout, it was a different

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Speaker 5: to almost make it look like a tattoo in their skin.

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Speaker 5: And so it was such a big part of the culture,

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Speaker 5: but yet removed from the pornography. And it's so funny

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Speaker 5: that for you it was like, oh, it was my

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Speaker 5: first interaction with it was like that's photography.

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Speaker 1: Leg and you're a dirty dude. That's my memory.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, So this is, as we've already said, we

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Speaker 3: are talking about the legacy of Hugh Hefner. When I

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Speaker 3: say legacy, we're putting this in like all of it's

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Speaker 3: like good and bad. We're not talking about uh again,

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Speaker 3: I think before, even in the last ten years, we

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Speaker 3: didn't even talk about him as a a like a

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Speaker 3: like a bad dude essentially, like people really wanted to

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Speaker 3: play out his all these things that he did for

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Speaker 3: society and for our culture and not really talking about

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Speaker 3: what was happening in the depth of it and what

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Speaker 3: he was truly truly doing, like this was all so

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Speaker 3: self serving.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 5: So I know we're gonna get to it, and I

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Speaker 5: don't want to derail us, but plus like plus plus

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Speaker 5: plus a thousand to that and that's the thing that

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Speaker 5: I want to like. My opinion on the topic is,

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Speaker 5: I think that is very much with intention. I think that,

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Speaker 5: you know, when I that's one of the reasons why

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Speaker 5: I'm obsessed with reading the memoirs and listening to podcasts

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Speaker 5: of the women who were part of this orbit is

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Speaker 5: I think from the free speech crusades and racial justice

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Speaker 5: crusades and talking about sexual liberation and feminism, to the

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Speaker 5: public PR culture image of like, oh, I'm a nice

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Speaker 5: grandpa in a robe and this is all very squeaky

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Speaker 5: clean and like it's all wholesome, I think all of

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Speaker 5: that was manufactured with intention for us the public to

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Speaker 5: not think about Hugh Hefner and his legacy in a

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Speaker 5: way that is frankly realistic to what it actually looked like.

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Speaker 5: I think that, you know, and so I don't want

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Speaker 5: to make it seem like he didn't do these things

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Speaker 5: for free speech and racial equality. But when people are

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Speaker 5: talking about like, oh, it's complicated legacy, I even think

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Speaker 5: that doesn't get at what we're actually talking about, which

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Speaker 5: is using the dark arts of PR to obscure wrongdoing,

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Speaker 5: some of which is criminal, you know.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, And I think we have to put this.

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Speaker 3: I was saying earlier that Bridget and I have kind

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Speaker 3: of a two different perspective because she has done the

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Speaker 3: intellectual thing and read all the things, while I went

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Speaker 3: down the true crowding level of watching the Secrets of

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Speaker 3: Playboy or the Secrets of the Mansion on A and E.

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Speaker 3: None of this is a sponsor because I was like,

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Speaker 3: all right, I'm not gonna read books, but I'll watch this.

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Speaker 3: But the amount of shock that I had watching this

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Speaker 3: and really like having to cleanse my soul after the

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Speaker 3: fact of like, oh, everything's the worst. So with all

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Speaker 3: of that, he has never been convicted of anything. So

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Speaker 3: we need to go ahead and put this here. When

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Speaker 3: we were talking about this, we have to say that

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Speaker 3: all of this is alleged because nothing has been proved

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Speaker 3: in the court or any way like outside of these

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Speaker 3: people's experiences. So we are doing that. But you also

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Speaker 3: know here that we believe women in a story. So

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Speaker 3: all of that to say, we're trying to put like

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Speaker 3: trying to frame it in a way of like, this

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Speaker 3: is what was told in these things, whether it's the memoir,

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Speaker 3: whether it's biographies from whatever, or whether it is this documentary. Yes,

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Speaker 3: at this point we have to say it's alleged for

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Speaker 3: the documentary in itself. It was released after his death,

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Speaker 3: and there are a lot of people who were very upset,

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Speaker 3: and they're very upset at the women who are writing

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Speaker 3: writing these memoirs. Those moments I was screaming at the

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Speaker 3: TV from some of the people defending Hugh Efner. So

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Speaker 3: I did have moments of me like you are full.

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Speaker 1: Of sh oh and I really don't.

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Speaker 5: Like that, my God, like can we get it? So

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Speaker 5: like that is a thing that I both from the

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Speaker 5: memoirs and from what I've watched at the doc like

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Speaker 5: how many people, many of whom were like on the

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Speaker 5: doll or involved in some way, are like how dare

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Speaker 5: these women try to tarnish his legacy? But I just

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Speaker 5: want to be like you would say that you were

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Speaker 5: being paid, you were part of this, Like it's like.

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Speaker 4: You would say that, right.

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Speaker 3: Part of this thing was like Annie, you might not

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Speaker 3: want to watch this is super gross.

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Speaker 2: I did get a text from Samantha that was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe don't do this, so I read about it.

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Speaker 6: I did the in between yes and documentary.

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Speaker 3: She researched in that way, she's like without having to

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Speaker 3: listen to everything that is happening according to because they

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Speaker 3: which the documentary itself, I have to go ahead and

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Speaker 3: put this in there. For the first few episodes, I

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Speaker 3: was like, Oh, this is interesting because they did it

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Speaker 3: where they like had like playbacks or you know, reenactments.

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Speaker 3: But then like towards the end of them, they had

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Speaker 3: a journalist who was on a Playboy as well come

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Speaker 3: in and do an actual sit down interview with people.

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Speaker 3: So it was very like shocking, like the way they

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Speaker 3: decided to do this. It wasn't like an aftermath thing

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Speaker 3: is she like she just sat and talked with different

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Speaker 3: people about their different experiences, And it was an interesting

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Speaker 3: dichotomy of how they decided to do that documentary. Just

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Speaker 3: on a like overall review of the documentary, So for.

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Speaker 5: People wondering I picked up on exactly what you're talking about.

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Speaker 5: There were like some editorial choices that I was like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, interesting, okay, this is how we're doing and like

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Speaker 4: it is a little jarring, I guess how I felt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was like, wait, okay, okay, but with that,

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Speaker 3: we're going to do a very brief talk about who

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Speaker 3: he was, who Hugh Hefner was, and he was actually

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Speaker 3: born April ninth, nineteen twenty six, in Chicago to a

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Speaker 3: very conservative family which he talked about quite a lot,

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Speaker 3: who had hopes of him being a missionary, which I

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Speaker 3: was like, huh, that's sounds about right. He served in

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Speaker 3: the military for a couple of years as a writer

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Speaker 3: of the military newspaper, so he's good at this. Went

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Speaker 3: to school at the University of Illinois at a Bonanno

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Speaker 3: Champaign with a bachelor's in arts and in psychology and

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Speaker 3: creative writing and art.

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Speaker 1: He worked as a copywriter for Esquire.

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Speaker 3: Which I was like, huh, but eventually left to start

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Speaker 3: Playboy magazine, which he was going to originally name Stag Party,

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Speaker 3: which when I out hear things like that when I'm

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Speaker 3: like the original idea, I was like, yeah, that was

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Speaker 3: not gonna work.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Stag Party.

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Speaker 5: I'm glad you rebranded because stag Party is just not

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Speaker 5: a good name.

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Speaker 4: It's not a good brands.

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Speaker 3: Such a different connotation too, like very like Playboy is

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Speaker 3: weird enough, but like stag Parties, like you're excluding women altogether,

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Speaker 3: so what's the point, right, But it's anyway, And it

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Speaker 3: was published in nineteen fifty three, and I think We

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Speaker 3: actually had a recent conversation about this, right when we

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Speaker 3: were talking about the fact that the first cover was

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Speaker 3: featured Marilyn Monroe, who never actually consented or approved of this.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and she I would argue that, like she was

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Speaker 5: not appropriately Like she had done a photo shoot for

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Speaker 5: a calendar company. The person who ran that calendar company

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Speaker 5: was like, Oh, nobody will ever see these photos.

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Speaker 4: It's fine, you know.

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Speaker 5: So she believed that Hugh Hefner then bought those images

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Speaker 5: without her consent and put them on the cover of Playboy,

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Speaker 5: and like that became me a big part of.

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Speaker 4: The Playboy empire.

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Speaker 5: So I would actually argue that the entire legacy is

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Speaker 5: kind of has its foundation in trickery, coercion, and economic

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Speaker 5: exploitation of women's sexuality.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't begrudge anybody.

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Speaker 5: Who wants to take off their clothes and be photographed

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Speaker 5: for money, But I would not argue that Marilyn Nrue

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Speaker 5: was not properly compensated or could not consent to the

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Speaker 5: way that image would go on to be used. This

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Speaker 5: came up in the episode that we did around the

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Speaker 5: Lena image was a Playboy model whose image went on

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Speaker 5: to like really shape the Internet, and I think we

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Speaker 5: see this again and again with like the foundation being

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Speaker 5: the exploitation of women, right, Yeah, As in fact, in

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Speaker 5: a biography dot com article, they talked about how she

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Speaker 5: was given fifty dollars too, and she did this before

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Speaker 5: all of her fame happened, because she needed to do

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Speaker 5: a car payment, supposedly, and she was like, all right,

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Speaker 5: as long as it's not going to show my face,

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Speaker 5: it blurs my image out great. And then this company

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Speaker 5: bought it for nine hundred dollars, and then he Hefner

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Speaker 5: came through and bought the rights with five hundred dollars

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Speaker 5: and then used it. And like, there's this whole conversation

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Speaker 5: about the fact that he had never met Marilyn Monroe,

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Speaker 5: as in fact he alleges, and no one has verified

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Speaker 5: that he had a phone conversation with her about it.

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Speaker 1: Again, we don't know that for sure.

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Speaker 3: And also he bought the plot next to her grave, yeah,

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Speaker 3: because he felt like he had some kind of I'm

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Speaker 3: going to say ownership of her, but more so in

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Speaker 3: his refrain was like we have a connection.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 5: I read a quote of him talking about this and

359
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Speaker 5: he was like, this is a paraphrase but it's something

360
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Speaker 5: along the lines of like, I can't imagine anything sweeter

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Speaker 5: than an my smitting my eternity resting on top of

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Speaker 5: Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 1: Gross.

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Speaker 3: Gross, I will say, I did not look into the fact.

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Speaker 3: Do we know did he actually do this?

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Speaker 4: Yes, he is real, Yeah, that's been verifact.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean he buried like he's actually married.

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Speaker 3: Yes, oh, or Marilyn Monroe, she's been so taken advantage

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Speaker 3: of even after death.

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Speaker 1: No, leave Norma Jean alone anyway.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but just other like little facts, because I'm not

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Speaker 3: doing a big long thing if Hefner was arrested in

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three for promoting obscene literature, but the case

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Speaker 3: ended with a hung jury, so nothing happened with that.

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Speaker 3: Hefner eventually gave up the seat as being the face

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Speaker 3: of Playboy to his son Cooper in twenty twelve, who,

377
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Speaker 3: by the way, is very loud about saying nothing of

378
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Speaker 3: none of this is true. All of these allegations aren't

379
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Speaker 3: true when unfounded. And I believe he has actually four children,

380
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,639
Speaker 3: two by his first wife he married before Playboy. I

381
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Speaker 3: believe he married before he went into military. And Cooper

382
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Speaker 3: wasn't one of those, but his daughter, Christie Hefner, was

383
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 3: one of like I believe she was some kind of

384
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Speaker 3: big CEO or key player in the nineteen nineties.

385
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Speaker 5: Yes, like she shows up in his close sort of

386
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Speaker 5: protecting his legacy.

387
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Speaker 3: Right when they originally brought her in. And like many

388
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Speaker 3: companies today, they were trying to show face us like, see,

389
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Speaker 3: we're about women. We want to put women in leadership roles.

390
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Speaker 1: Here's my daughter.

391
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Speaker 3: Look at her, who shut down many things and mad

392
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Speaker 3: sure women suffered allegedly.

393
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Speaker 4: Allegedly put that in here.

394
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Speaker 3: And then he died in twenty seventeen at the age

395
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Speaker 3: of ninety one. I mean, people celebrate him. And I

396
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 3: did find this article because all of the articles, if

397
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Speaker 3: you put Playboy now, it's all about these documentaries and memoirs,

398
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Speaker 3: which I'm kind of glad about. But this was an

399
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 3: interesting rite of Hefner in twenty eleven, while he was

400
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 3: still alive, in The New York Times by Charles McGrath

401
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 3: titled How hef Got his Groove Back Why They got

402
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 3: to still Things Anyway, it says Hefner is a little odd, certainly,

403
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: but not a sleesbag. He has none of Bob Guccione's

404
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 3: oiliness or Larry Flint's leering vulgarity. His manner is open

405
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 3: and direct, and his language is as clean as a

406
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 3: Midwestern rotarians. By his own lights. Having purged himself of

407
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 3: the shame and hypocrisy that is a part of most

408
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,719
Speaker 3: Americans sexual baggage, he leads a life that is exceptionally

409
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 3: honest and moral. It's also a life that is exceptionally

410
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 3: well documented. He has been written about so often and

411
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 3: for so long that in interviews now he tends to

412
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 3: recycle himself, saying the same things over and over again,

413
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 3: not in a bored wrote fashion, but as if they

414
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 3: had just occurred to him. He complains a lot about

415
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 3: America's puritanical, contradictory attitudes towards sex, and likes to say

416
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 3: that he is a quote, one eyed man in a

417
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 3: blind world. He also thinks that most men would kill

418
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Speaker 3: to be in his place. I feel like the only

419
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: true line to that is that last line.

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Speaker 4: I don't even think.

421
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 5: That's true because when you read, because when you read

422
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 5: some of these memoirs, it's like it actually doesn't sound

423
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Speaker 5: that great.

424
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Speaker 4: For anybody who was in that mansion, it's probably.

425
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 5: Going the best for hef but it doesn't even sound

426
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 5: like it's great.

427
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 4: For him in some regards.

428
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Speaker 5: And I will say, like, you're so spot on that

429
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 5: this is all lies. And having read what some of

430
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,479
Speaker 5: the women have to say about what it was like

431
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 5: to be required to have sex with him nightly, he

432
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 5: is not someone who sounds like he is free of

433
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 5: sexual baggage at all. Is not someone who is like

434
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 5: sexually free and like a libertine.

435
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 4: If you read these.

436
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 5: Accounts of what it was like to have sex with

437
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 5: him and be required to do so regularly for your

438
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 5: room and board, he sounds like somebody who had quite

439
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 5: a few sexual hang ups that were playing out in

440
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 5: the bedroom.

441
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 4: So even that's not true. Even this, even this.

442
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,959
Speaker 5: Very carefully manufactured persona of how he was as a

443
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 5: lover or as a sexual person, is a house of lies.

444
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: Right in that article they do say.

445
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 3: Because he talks this is in the era of the

446
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: Girl's next Door and how it really did do a lot.

447
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: Because I'm with you, Ritchard, when you were talking about earlier,

448
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 3: I watched this thinking that it was a cute show.

449
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: It was like, oh, this is like the real housewife

450
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 3: of so and so like in this timeframe and really

451
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 3: set up these three playful girls who all like had

452
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 3: different characters to play, and then him in the background

453
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 3: as just being that wise old man taking care of

454
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 3: his girls literally, like that's what it seemed, and they

455
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 3: all made sure that it felt like they were all

456
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 3: immature and doing things and he was keeping them in

457
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 3: line or at least keeping them safe.

458
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: Right.

459
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: But he talks about the fact that what did these

460
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: girls get out of it? And he says a mentor

461
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: at one point, a friend, and then just the key

462
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 3: to success.

463
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: So again, but that of course plays it back on

464
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: to the women.

465
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 4: First of all, a mentor. That's I don't that's so.

466
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 5: Deeply insulting when you when you read the way that

467
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 5: the women describe their own experiences, that's just not true.

468
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 5: You know, A key keys to success? I guess it's

469
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 5: when we were when I was like kind of preparing

470
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 5: and thinking about this episode. That's something that I'm really

471
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 5: grappling with and I don't have the answer there of

472
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 5: Like a lot of these women, their association with Playboy

473
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 5: is what gave them public attention and public profiles and platforms.

474
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 5: So the question is like, is that success, is that

475
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 5: a successful life? Is that a full life? If these

476
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 5: women are happy, more power to them. That's great. But

477
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 5: then you read these memoirs and many of them did

478
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 5: not sound happy.

479
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 4: Many of them did not seem to be happy with

480
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 4: what was going on.

481
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 5: And they thread that runs from all of the memoirs

482
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 5: that I have read is like I didn't feel like

483
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 5: I had a lot of other options.

484
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 4: I needed a place.

485
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 5: To live, I needed money, whatever, whatever, And like I

486
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 5: think it comes down to, like, like what is success

487
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 5: as defined by our culture and defined by each and

488
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 5: every one of us, Like I don't.

489
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: Know where I sort of.

490
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 5: Stand about like whether or not this was something that

491
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 5: was actually good for these women.

492
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, And I think that's something I grapple with

493
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: a lot too. Is you know, for one, that there's

494
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: no he was.

495
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: Not a mentor.

496
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: I just refuse to believe that.

497
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: But it's like I've been I've seen this happen where

498
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: it's a man who will be like I can get you,

499
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: I can get you to the top, kid like making

500
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: you all these promises like I can you will find

501
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 2: success with me and being feeling like Okay, this is

502
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: what I have to do to get success, and just

503
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: the systemic issues with that. But I also think like

504
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 2: we've been talking about this a lot. We just did

505
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: an episode about Bumble and what their ad campaign that

506
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: was men Bumble.

507
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 6: Yes, it's I feel there.

508
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: Is this thing that is more nuanced than people are

509
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: trying to make it where it's like, oh, you're sexually empowered,

510
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: you want to do this, right, but it's still men

511
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: like manipulating women into doing this thing. And if that's

512
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: what you want to do, more power to you. But

513
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: I feel like it's so often presented as Oh, I'm

514
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: going to empower you so that men can look at you.

515
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, there's a lot of questions of ethics.

516
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, when I was looking into all of the different

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 5: things that people say is part of Hugh Hefner's legacy

518
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 5: around things like equality and racial equality, Like it's like, oh,

519
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 5: he had the first trans playmate in his magazine, he

520
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 5: had the first black playmate, and then a black woman

521
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: who was photographed on a cover of Playboy with an afro,

522
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 5: And I understand why people are talking about this in

523
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 5: a in the frame of equality. Like when Hefner died,

524
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 5: Caroline Tulakasi said that, you know, she was the first

525
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 5: transgender woman in the magazine and she tweeted rip U

526
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 5: Heffnerd thank you for allowing me to share my story

527
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 5: and for your support and platform that helped my campaign

528
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 5: her trans rights and visibility. So I get that, but

529
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 5: it makes me a bit sad that the equality that

530
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 5: we're talking about is having underrepresented people being served up

531
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 5: to be sexually consumed in this way, and that part

532
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 5: and parcel of that with Playboy has always been giving

533
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 5: the women less economically, right, Like even that first story

534
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 5: that you that you shared Sam about Marilyn Monroe, the

535
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 5: person who got the least amount of money in that

536
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 5: exchange was Marilyn Monroe.

537
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 4: Everybody else was getting more money for her body. And

538
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 4: so yeah, I.

539
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 5: Just it is it is complicated in that is that

540
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 5: really equality?

541
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 4: You know?

542
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: Right?

543
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 3: And in the in the Marilyn Monroe in that article

544
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: at biography dot com, she talks about the fight that

545
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: they've made millions of dollar off of me and I

546
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: have not seen a sin, Like she literally talks about

547
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: the fact that she knows how much money that they

548
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 3: have made off of this, and how he really did

549
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: advertise me like first time news that with people have

550
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: talked about never seen like he made sure to blow

551
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 3: this up in a way that it was going to

552
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: sell and launch him into being a millionaire. But I

553
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 3: find it interesting that when we come back, because at

554
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 3: the end, I do want to have this conversation because

555
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: Playboy Hugh Hefner touts this whole ideal of allowing women

556
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 3: to be a part of these conversations and being whatever

557
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 3: they want to be through this access, and it's all

558
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: about sexual liberation and for women as well. We want

559
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: to give you the freedom to choose and enjoy sex

560
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: and say that you like sex. But when it comes

561
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: down to that being the fact that women have to

562
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: pay in order to be able to say that, but

563
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: they're not able to say that because they can't say no. Like,

564
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: there's so many conversations to that, And at what point,

565
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: in what platform is there a possibility Is there a

566
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: true way that women can be sexually liberated where they

567
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: have all of the power to have the consent that

568
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: they deserve and to be able to profit off it

569
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 3: if they want to, Like, do they have equality in

570
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: a field that has been abused and used to abuse.

571
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: Women for so long?

572
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: Like there's so much like depth to that because they're like,

573
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 3: we want it to be and Playboy made money off

574
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: of that idea, right, So where do we get that?

575
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 5: And I would argue, like that is a great question

576
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 5: and a great conversation to have, But I can't look

577
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 5: at the legacy of Playboy and say that they were

578
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 5: actually offering women that in a meaningful way, right, Like,

579
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 5: just let's look at some of the things that we

580
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 5: know about what went on in the mansion, you.

581
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 4: Know, right, selling pictures of women that were taken without

582
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 4: their consent.

583
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: In all the memoirs, the women talk about how they

584
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 5: did not know, but there was cameras in Hugheffner's bedroom,

585
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 5: and so in these required nightly orgies, they didn't know

586
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 5: that they were being filmed.

587
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 4: And if your whole thing, if your whole.

588
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 5: Platform is around sexual freedom, sexual liberation, that has to

589
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 5: that can't happen if there's also coercion and a lack

590
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 5: of informed consent, those things cannot co exist. And so

591
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 5: if you are not getting consent from women, and women

592
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 5: are being coerced into things that they don't know that

593
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 5: they're doing and certainly they are consenting to, there is

594
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 5: no sexual liberation.

595
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 4: You're selling a lie. And so I'm not going to

596
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 4: say that there is not a model.

597
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 5: Where women can truly have like meaningful sexual liberation that

598
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 5: also does not involve like coercion or exploitation or something.

599
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna say that, but I can certainly look

600
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 5: at this model and say this wasn't in it.

601
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: You know, right, absolutely absolutely.

602
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: In fact, we're going to talk about the fact that, yes, overall,

603
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner's legacy is a roller coaster and doing a

604
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: steady decline.

605
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: And I think we're all here for that.

606
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: From an NPR article by Scott Simon, he writes, Hugh

607
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: Hefner saw the sexual revolution as a companion to the

608
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: movements of sovil rights and free speech. But this leading

609
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: figure of the sexual revolution couldn't see the feminist revolution.

610
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: Heff went from being acclaimed an icon of cool to

611
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: being denounced and oppressive pick and he also goes on

612
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: to say that Hefner's reputation for many of the women

613
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: in Chicago was actually pretty good for some. He says,

614
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 3: when I was growing up in Chicago, the formidable women

615
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: who were my mother's friends considered Playboy a good place

616
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: to work for a single woman. Women at the Playboy

617
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: Club were well paid, got chauffeured home in cabs and customers, stars, politicians,

618
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: even it was rumored spoiled by Middle Eastern princes were

619
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: thrown out if they weren't gentlemen. My Auntie Abba trained

620
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: playboy bunnies. When Gloria Steinem and others said the bunny

621
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: costume which wrenched a woman's bodice upwards so her chest

622
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: resembled ice cream scoops or exhibit a in the way

623
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner made women into idealize sex objects, my Auntie

624
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: Abba sniffed and said, well, they wear some pretty ridiculous

625
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 3: costumes at the Metropolitan Opera too, So it was interesting.

626
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: And he is not in favor, Like, he's not talking highly.

627
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: He's just talking about what he had experienced as a

628
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: child in Chicago who had connections. And you know what

629
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: I will say from the documentary, it starts off that

630
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 3: way in this conversation. And of course when we talk

631
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: about the Playboy clubs, the legacy of the clubs and

632
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: the magazines, though they were related, were still two different

633
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: money makers, right, Because I think it's interesting to note

634
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 3: that as Hugh Hefner was like, I'm about equal equality,

635
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: I am about all these things. The little ratio of

636
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: marginalized people in the magazine is.

637
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: Very low, like real real, real, real, real low, right, real.

638
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 5: Low, And yet he's like a celebration, like, yes, it's

639
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 5: super low.

640
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 4: It's super white, super conventional.

641
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 5: And it's like, oh well, he did have a black

642
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 5: woman with an afro on the cover, right.

643
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: Once or twice, Like it's like, how is it this low?

644
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 5: And you're also being like heralded as a pair of.

645
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: Gone of racial quality, right, And just like the level

646
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: of like how many black women were featured is like

647
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: single digits, and one of them happened to be LaToya Jackson,

648
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 3: who was there as a celebrity essentially, And the way

649
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: he showed I think some of his diversity is hiring

650
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 3: them at clubs, is what it sounds like. So they

651
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: weren't necessarily featured on the magazine. You weren't good enough

652
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 3: for that, but you're good enough to make me money

653
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: this way.

654
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 5: Oh yes, that is That is a tension that still

655
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 5: existed and still ran as.

656
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 4: An undercurrent through a lot of them.

657
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 5: The memoirs that I've read of like parts of the pape,

658
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 5: the Playboy Enterprise, or these coveted things like getting a cover,

659
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 5: being a playmate. So it's like, Oh, I'm good enough

660
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 5: to like be at your trashy parties and like make

661
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 5: you money in some ways, but in other ways I'm

662
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 5: not good enough. Like like that dynamic is very much

663
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 5: an undercurrent of the Playboy, the Playboy that we were

664
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 5: watching like in the Girls next Door era too.

665
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 3: And you know, we're going to kind of talk about

666
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: a little bit of what he has legacies are and

667
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: when these contain. And one of the big things that

668
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 3: people always spout is about free speech.

669
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 5: Oh yes, so this the free speech thing definitely is

670
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 5: a kind of a part of his legacy. And as

671
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 5: you mentioned him, like part of it is because as

672
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 5: a person who makes and distributes pornography, he had to

673
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 5: defend his own work in his own business from censorship

674
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 5: and like government censorship and all of that. Him and

675
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 5: his ex wife established the Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Award,

676
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 5: which is still given out today. It creates it which

677
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 5: I think I find like very funny. It started in

678
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy nine to honor individuals who have made significant

679
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 5: contributions in the vital effort to protect and enhance First

680
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 5: Amendment rights for Americans. According to the BBC, in nineteen

681
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 5: fifty four, he won a legal battle against the United

682
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 5: States Postal Service when the Postmaster General, Arthur Summerfield, refused

683
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 5: to deliver copies of Playboy.

684
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 4: On the grounds that it was obscene.

685
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 5: Hefner told the court, we don't think Postmaster Summerfield has

686
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 5: any business editing magazines. We think you should stick to

687
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 5: delivering the mail. And Playboy actually won that case, right.

688
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 3: And didn't he he had the again, we talked about

689
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 3: the fact that the mess Act which happened, and one

690
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: of the big whistleblowers is one of the people in

691
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: the documentary.

692
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: Uh. She was a higher up.

693
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: She was an original Playboy Bunny. She was on the centerfold. Uh,

694
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: she was the first Latina uh Playboy Bunny to be featured.

695
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: And then she just like went up the ranks in

696
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: the corporation, really thinking she was going to be doing

697
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: something like she was so excited that she was a

698
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: part of something that she can really work for women's rights.

699
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: But at one point she finally had enough after so

700
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: much abuse. I believe with the murder of one of

701
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: the Playboy uh playmates of the year, I believe, Uh,

702
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: she kind of just had enough and she couldn't figure

703
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: out how to help the bunnies, as you said, or

704
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 3: the models. And so she came out as a whistle blower,

705
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 3: testifying in front of the court about the acts that

706
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: were happening on the Playboy executives and that Hugh Hefner

707
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: was very aware. And this included things that didn't necessarily

708
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 3: happen in the mansion but happened under their watch, whether

709
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 3: it was at these clubs or whether it was at

710
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: these like they had like lodges which I was like, oh,

711
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 3: I didn't know that existed, Or they had like incidents

712
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 3: where they were sending models out and it wasn't actually

713
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 3: for a modeling job.

714
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: It's literally trafficking them out totally.

715
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 5: So this is something that I want to like be

716
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 5: super clear about, which is that people really talk a

717
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 5: lot about Hugh Hefner as this champion of free speech,

718
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: but the women in his orbit tell a very different

719
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 5: tale about the actual role of free speech for women

720
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 5: in his empire, right, Like it kind of almost reminds

721
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 5: me of Elon Musk, who is like, oh, free speech,

722
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 5: free speech, and less you're somebody who works for me,

723
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 5: and you're the speech that you are talking about is

724
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 5: starting a union right. So, Sondra Theodore, a former Hefner

725
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 5: girlfriend who was accused Hefner of grooming young women and

726
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 5: keeping tapes on them to silence them, said, there is

727
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 5: no freedom of speech in the world of Playboy. Playmates

728
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 5: have been kept quiet since the beginning. Unless you're singing

729
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 5: his or Playboy's praises. Of course, no way the celebration

730
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 5: can go interrupted. It's a farce. She added. This was

731
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 5: after Hugh Hefner died and everybody was rushing to be like, oh, well,

732
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 5: he was a real champion of free speech, and yeah,

733
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 5: I just don't. I don't believe that you should be

734
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 5: lifting up somebody as a champion of free speech, even

735
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 5: if they do have awards, even if they did have

736
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 5: to defend themselves, if they are maintaining and benefiting and

737
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 5: profiting from an empire that relies on silencing women's speech

738
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 5: to do that, those two things are completely and deeply

739
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 5: incompatible to me, right.

740
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: Right, there's the majority of what Playboy was representing was

741
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: incompatible to.

742
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: Just human rights.

743
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: Let's just be very glad like the overall freedoms and

744
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: like protections of individuals point blank. So yeah, what I'm

745
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: talking about is actually the mis Report, which was published

746
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty six. It was under the Ronald Reagan,

747
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: which I hate him, I don't love him, but like

748
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 3: the things did happen, but it was done under his administration,

749
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 3: and they did.

750
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: They went after.

751
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: Playboy in which I think like twenty three several like

752
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 3: convenience store chains stopped publishing and Playboy countersuit saying that

753
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 3: they had lost millions of dollars in revenue. And also,

754
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 3: you're taking away the freedom of speech from retailers as

755
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: well as individuals who want to purchase these magazines, so

756
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: so many things, and this kind of led way to

757
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 3: what I was talking about with the covering up of

758
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: the magazines.

759
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: All you could see this as a title and you

760
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: can't look at it.

761
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: And I think eventually we'll eventually lead to like the ratings,

762
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 3: the TVMA type of things as well.

763
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: But this is like something that he went after.

764
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: And because he did go after this, people were like, yeah,

765
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 3: he's definitely championing for our eyes, not a capitalist wanting

766
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 3: all his money back, because again it did hurt him

767
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 3: pretty badly. But during that time is when we saw

768
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: one insider come out and talk about why Playboy is

769
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 3: not what you think is not about this, and these

770
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 3: are things about like harassment and doing under the rest

771
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: talking about because we're talking about this later, like women

772
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: being drugged, women being pressured, because we know that several

773
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 3: of the models talked about the fact that they came

774
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 3: in with the strong understanding that all they would do

775
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: is show their movies there, show some breasts and that's fine,

776
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: and then eventually being talked into or co warced or

777
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: told that they would not get this job unless they

778
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: were fully, fully naked, and so many things. And then

779
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: I know, like I fleeve with most of them, they

780
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: were all filmed, and they were told and promised that

781
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: they none of this would be publish. It was just

782
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: for them, It was just for our works, and everything

783
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 3: is quote unquote going on the cutting room floor. We

784
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: just want to do a behind the scenes type of

785
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: very classy, which I love it that that's what they

786
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: talk too, is like it's very classy. Is a girl

787
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: next door type of shoes, so don't worry about it.

788
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it goes back to that manufactured, pr

789
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 5: crafted image of this being somehow wholesome as opposed to

790
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 5: what it actually is, which is the exploitation of women,

791
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 5: both sexually and economically that is being maintained by surveillance, coercion, lies,

792
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 5: and drugs. I almost feel like if that was the

793
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 5: kind of enterprise that they were running and profiting from.

794
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 4: Like Okay, well that's what it is.

795
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 5: But I guess where I sort of take issue more

796
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 5: broadly is like why did we all have to believe

797
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 5: that it was really wholesome and like good for the women?

798
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 6: Right?

799
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 4: Why can't it just be what it is?

800
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 5: The bit about where we all come into it of like, oh,

801
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 5: we should all be like seeing the behind the scene

802
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 5: and like thinking it's really like.

803
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 4: Actually good for the girls.

804
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 5: That's what I kind of tick issue with, or you know,

805
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 5: seeing the way that these women who spoke up about

806
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 5: what they saw, like you were just talking about Sam,

807
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 5: like seeing them be silenced and then also having to

808
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 5: praise you Hefner as a paragona free speech, right, Like

809
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 5: that's what I can abide.

810
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And as you were saying, people who were

811
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: wanted to tell their story were being told you can't

812
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: tell this story and being silenced by you Hefner and

813
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: his team.

814
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

815
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 5: Another voice that was in that documentary Jennifer Sagnor, who

816
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 5: wrote this tell all book about her childhood, which she

817
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 5: largely spent at the Playboy Mansion in the nineties and

818
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 5: two thousands. Her dad was Hefner's live in doctor. Like

819
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 5: kind of a doctor. It sounds like kind of a doctor,

820
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 5: feel good, kind of sitch. But she wrote a memoir

821
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 5: about the things that she had seen and about that experience.

822
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 5: She wrote, quote, I was silent when my memoir Playground,

823
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 5: came out. I believe there is truth to the hypocrisy

824
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 5: that should be noted by all. The irony of being

825
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 5: silenced by the being of the First Amendment demonstrates the

826
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 5: true nature of our culture and abuse of power in

827
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 5: our society. And her book was all about like really

828
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 5: gross things like grooming of underage girls, girls being given drugs,

829
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 5: sometimes without their knowledge. I heard memoir Allegen's behavior that

830
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 5: is criminal, and she was silenced by Hugh Hefner when

831
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 5: she tried to speak out about this in her book.

832
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 3: Right, her story alone in the documentary was horrifying.

833
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 1: I was very confused from job. Like she was there.

834
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: She's moved into the Playboy Mage and had her own

835
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: room at the age of seven, like her dad brought

836
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: her there. She talked about how she would sit in

837
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner's lap during their game days, and she really

838
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: saw him as a father figure, really thought he was

839
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: so amazing. And then at the age of fifteen, she

840
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 3: realized she was kind of infatuated with one of the

841
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: playmates who happened to be Hugh Hefner's girlfriend at the time,

842
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 3: and they started having a relationship. And by the way,

843
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 3: this woman was an adult I believe she was twenty

844
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: twenty one. Yes, she was also groomed into that. But

845
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 3: they started a sexual relationship, and in that she alleges

846
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: that Hugh Hefner tried to get the girlfriend, brought her

847
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 3: into his bedroom and then they started playing about I

848
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: apologize and the girl, the girlfriend started crying and ran out,

849
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: and he allegedly said to her, well, I guess this

850
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 3: is not happening now. I can't do this while she's crying.

851
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 3: So he was ready to have a sexual relationship. And

852
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 3: this was when she was at the age of seventeen

853
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: with someone she considered him being a father figure and

854
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 3: his best friend's daughter.

855
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, there is a lot of blurring, like you like

856
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 5: you were saying earlier that like, oh, what do these

857
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 5: girls get out of it, Oh, well, a mentor figure.

858
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 5: And it's like, well, if you're having sex with your men,

859
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 5: Like there's a lot of blurring of roles here where

860
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 5: if you can you really have a mentor and be

861
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 5: having sex with him, should you be having sex with

862
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 5: somebody that you said that you considered a father figure.

863
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 5: And also if you're like not of the age of consent,

864
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 5: you obviously shouldn't. Like that's you know, a different thing.

865
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 5: But yeah, a lot of what was it sounds like

866
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 5: a lot of what was going on in the house

867
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 5: was this kind of real blurring of lines and boundaries

868
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 5: and the line of consent and legality, and it kind

869
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 5: of being sold back to us as like not this

870
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 5: big of a deal, like a fun party and environment

871
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 5: as opposed to an environment that is actually really toxic.

872
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 4: That's right.

873
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, it is wild. I mean, I don't want

874
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 5: to like cast dispersions. It is wild to me that

875
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 5: this guy moved his kid into that house, right, It

876
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 5: is just like I have to have to say.

877
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 3: That, like there's so many things that I was confused

878
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: by that this situation. And I know this was like

879
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: the early like sixties, seventies, fifties, I don't know, like

880
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: sixty seventies.

881
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: I think actually that I was.

882
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 3: Like, yo, why would you you know, you take part

883
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 3: in this and you're okay with bringing your daughter in there.

884
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: And then also I don't know if her father knew

885
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: that that situation happened, but like that, they didn't remove

886
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: her from the situation. She remained there until she left,

887
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 3: I believe. And when she wrote the book, she had

888
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 3: some publicity, and then she was supposed to go do

889
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 3: a few more. According to her.

890
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner called her. I was like, I'm so proud

891
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: of you for doing this book. Great job.

892
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 3: Can you tell me who else you were going to

893
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 3: go see? And then when she found out and she

894
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: told him, he called all of them and they all

895
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: canceled on her. So like that was essentially like, not,

896
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: you're done this, this book is over.

897
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 4: We're not a free.

898
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 5: Speech everybody a champion express herself right.

899
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: And the woman that I was talking about earlier was

900
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: Mickey Garcia. She was the one that really came in

901
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 3: the eighties and came in and testified saying, I have notes,

902
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 3: and she actually in the documentary pulls out boxes of

903
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: notes and memos and all the things of all the

904
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 3: complaints that she was getting from women, all the rape

905
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 3: allegations that were happening, all the situations where they were

906
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 3: not correctly protected, all of these things, and then all

907
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 3: them being swept under the rug.

908
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: But she was the one that really came through. It

909
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: was like, nah, this is bad. Y'all are doing some

910
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: bad things.

911
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 3: And she alleges also that she was told that she

912
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 3: was in the rankings for being Playman of the Year,

913
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 3: which the way they pay is that you get a

914
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 3: substidentinal amount, well not even substantial. During her time, it

915
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 3: was fifteen thousand, and that was like you get five

916
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: thousand for the picture, and it being published, you get

917
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: another five thousand, uh after it's run for a year,

918
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 3: and then get another five thousand like three years later.

919
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: So literally you got five thousand a year for like

920
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: the next four years.

921
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: Maybe like it was an absurd way of holding money

922
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 3: over their head for this instead of just being paid upfront,

923
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 3: which they couldn't say no to that. They were like,

924
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 3: oh that at that point, that's not a lot of money,

925
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: not really in comparison to how often you got that, but.

926
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 5: And what they're making from that from that, so it's

927
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 5: like when you put it in context, it's really not

928
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 5: that much money.

929
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 3: Right, And as well as so, she was told that

930
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: she was in the running for being Playman of the Year,

931
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: which was going to be like a double if not

932
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 3: more than that, and that was a huge deal and

933
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 3: really big thing. But she had to go meet up

934
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 3: with Hugh Hefner for a personal appointment in order to

935
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: make that and when she refused to do so, they

936
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 3: didn't say she was like. The person who was trying

937
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: to arrange all this, which was a woman, was like, okay,

938
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: that's on you.

939
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: You do you.

940
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: When she announced who the Playmate of the Year was,

941
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: it definitely wasn't her, And of course Garcia came back

942
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: was like, I don't. I'm not saying that the other

943
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: woman did do any of these things and had this

944
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: personal meeting in a way, whatever whatnot. But I'm just

945
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: saying that I was told this is what I would

946
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: need to do, or it was implied to me that

947
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: this is what I needed to do to get to

948
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: this point.

949
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely clear that a lot of the machinations

950
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 5: of how this inner world worked is through things being

951
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 5: held over women's head, false promises that never come to

952
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 5: fruition really kind of pitting women against each other, like

953
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 5: it's so diabolical and toxic the inner machinations of how

954
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 5: this whole system sustained.

955
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 3: Itself, right, And it was interesting to me just like

956
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 3: the timeline when you see things progressing and how gross

957
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: things got and the level of toxicity that remained. And

958
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 3: it really was like mad Men era type of thing.

959
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 3: And then the sixties seventies, but it was also butting

960
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 3: heads with the feminist movement at the same time, which

961
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 3: is a whole different conversation, and again with the racial

962
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 3: equality movement. So he had so many other things that

963
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: he could point to. It felt like a distraction of

964
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 3: like I'm so great at this that I can do

965
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 3: these things too, Like it seems like.

966
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: That kind of balance.

967
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 5: I mean, again, this is where it gets complicated in

968
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 5: that he did have concrete things that you could point

969
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 5: to and be like, oh, that was a good way

970
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 5: to push the conversation on race Ford, right, Like he

971
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 5: published very sort of like at the time, Progressive Conversations

972
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 5: about race you know. One of the first ever interviews

973
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 5: they ever published was an interview between Alex Haley, who

974
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 5: was the author of the book Roots, with the jazz

975
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 5: musician Miles Davis, and It's all about This was in

976
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty two, and it's all about like racial equality

977
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 5: and sort of the future of race in America. Martin

978
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 5: Luther King's longest print interview appeared in Playboy in January

979
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 5: of nineteen sixty five. Cooper Hefner, Hugh Hefter's son, told

980
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 5: The Telegraph that the last article ever written by MLK

981
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 5: before his assassination was published by Playboy. He added that

982
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 5: a special edition was published in braille for musician Ray

983
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 5: Charles was blind. So he also was a big backer

984
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 5: of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition, which was like a

985
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 5: big racial justice organization back in the sixties. Hefner donated

986
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 5: twenty five thousand dollars as a reward in order to

987
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 5: help the comedian Dick Gregory uncover the bodies of slain

988
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 5: civil rights activists. So like he definitely did these things

989
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 5: that pushed the conversation around race forward.

990
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 4: I would argue that.

991
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 5: These things might have been done out of genuine desire

992
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 5: to shape conversations about race, But when he died, the

993
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 5: way the conversation was about these things makes me also

994
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 5: suspect that they were done with intention to make sure

995
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 5: that some of his less savory things would be drowned

996
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 5: out by these things, these good things that he actually did.

997
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: Do right right, And that's like that big part is

998
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: that he gave like this credence to the magazine. Insane

999
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 3: is not just naked women. Look at these articles. Look

1000
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: at this like boundary pushing conversations we're having. We're talking

1001
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 3: about LGBTQ rights, we're talking about racial equality, we're talking

1002
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 3: about all these things that you want to hide, but

1003
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 3: we are for the people, like he really yeah, but.

1004
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 5: It's so funny that when you were at your friend's

1005
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 5: house and watching the Playboy channel, it wasn't like, we're

1006
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 5: gonna put on the Playboy channel. What is this Alex

1007
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 5: Haley in conversation with Miles Davis about racial equality.

1008
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: This is bad, let's watch it.

1009
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's become of a movie. Was like, no,

1010
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: I get Playboy for the article. That's that like joke

1011
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: that people have about it.

1012
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 3: Honestly, the first time I realized people, and maybe because

1013
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 3: I was out of the world, out of that world

1014
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 3: like that was very I was very religious and so

1015
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 3: like that was all that anyway, because it was naked

1016
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: women in general, bad bad, bad, but like having the

1017
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 3: Like the first time I think someone talked about the

1018
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 3: articles was something with George Clooney related like he had

1019
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: published something and I can't even remember, or about about

1020
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: some depth of a conversation that seemed really political. And

1021
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 3: then I think John Mayer wrote an article in there

1022
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 3: or was interviewed in there talking about how he was

1023
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 3: getting his sobriety and how he made all these mistakes,

1024
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 3: like he was first like slamming the women and then

1025
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 3: he came back later with now I'm sober.

1026
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 6: Sounds like it's very interesting, very interesting to me that

1027
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 6: it's like, look at these women naked the articles from

1028
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 6: what I'm hearing, and mostly men.

1029
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: I don't think you're wrong.

1030
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 3: I think he's probably right about That's what I was thinking, too,

1031
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 3: is like when he talked about giving equal rights, not

1032
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: that it's not because we need more voices obviously, but

1033
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,439
Speaker 3: it was more black women doing their investigative reporters when

1034
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 3: they were talking about it. Also, they did send one

1035
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 3: and I think it's that same comedian to a neo

1036
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 3: like the newly founded American Nazi Group to interview them

1037
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 3: who had a gun.

1038
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: The entire interview with him to threaten him.

1039
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 3: I'm like, really, like that's what you decided that was

1040
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 3: really gonna be cool?

1041
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I do think like we could do

1042
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 5: a whole, like like a whole conversation on the way

1043
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 5: that Playboy understands and creates journalism and media, like apart

1044
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 5: from the pornography. I actually the only copy of Playboy

1045
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 5: magazine that I actually have in my house is one

1046
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 5: from the seventies with an interview with Gore Vidal, the novelist,

1047
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 5: and so like, they certainly weren't like publishing I think

1048
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 5: with intention trying to publish sort of high minded, serious

1049
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 5: writing like Norman Mail or things like that. I think

1050
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 5: to again like manufacture this idea that if you had

1051
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 5: a Playboy in your home, you weren't just looking at

1052
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 5: pictures of breasts or whatever. You were reading like serious,

1053
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 5: serious men writing about serious topics.

1054
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 3: And I think like when we talked about like who

1055
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 3: he was in the legend that he left behind, and

1056
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: we we're probably talking about a lot of big insinuations

1057
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: in this, like the when we talk about any of

1058
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: the good things that he does, there's always a butt

1059
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: like there's there this conversation cannot have that. So it's

1060
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 3: like if you looked at our outline the way like

1061
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 3: we had placed it was like, oh, we're gonna try

1062
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 3: to talk about these things, but then we'll come into

1063
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 3: the scandal of it all.

1064
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: But then like not, it just kind of all sits in.

1065
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: It can't do that.

1066
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 3: There's no real way of like this is what he

1067
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: did in the legacy, like blah blah blah, but this

1068
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 3: is the legacy, and this is a part of his legacy,

1069
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 3: Like the bad is also a part of his legacy,

1070
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 3: and we have to forget it. It just because it's

1071
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 3: newly sought out or at least uh women have now

1072
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 3: or people marginalized people have finally come about to talk

1073
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: about it doesn't mean that it wasn't always there, you

1074
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like this is a conversation which

1075
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: again this is a side note of the thing that

1076
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 3: I saw so much of in this documentary, the back

1077
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 3: and forth even from the victims themselves and the survivors themselves,

1078
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 3: talking about I know I should have done all these things.

1079
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 3: I know I should have gone out. I'm smarter than this,

1080
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: I should not done this. This is my fault. The

1081
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: many times I heard them say this is my fault

1082
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: made me want to throw up. To be honest, like

1083
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: I was like, this is irritating, even to the point

1084
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 3: that one of the ones who was Hugh Heffner's friend

1085
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: and work and defends him to this day, like she

1086
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: had a group for support for Hugh Heffner on different

1087
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 3: pages and whatnot. She talked about the fact that not

1088
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner, but one of his like ringleaders kind of

1089
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 3: set her up to be raped by one of the

1090
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 3: photographers that worked close in hand with Hugh Hefner, And

1091
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: she came out getting mad and yelling at that and saying,

1092
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 3: don't you should never like she had told her, you know,

1093
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 3: I'm leaving with you, don't leave me here because she

1094
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 3: knew something bad would happen, and said, don't, like, you

1095
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 3: should never do that to a woman.

1096
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: You never do that to another woman.

1097
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 3: But previously, if you like had a cut two moment

1098
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: in my head in which she had like went after Holly,

1099
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 3: who was one of the girlfriends from the Girl next Door,

1100
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: probably the lead girlfriend, probably the most famous of the ones.

1101
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 3: Like people who know nothing about Hugh Hefner or the playboy,

1102
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 3: I knew who she was Holly Madison had written her

1103
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 3: memoir and in the documentary, she's like, how dare she

1104
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 3: She was not unhappy?

1105
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: Why was she stay there? Why would she do these things?

1106
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: Why is she's.

1107
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 3: Lying now because she's she's taking his name like she

1108
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 3: was mad? But she was also the same person who

1109
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 3: had an experience that just wasn't Hugh Hefner personally related,

1110
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 3: but losing that connection that there's a reason that culture

1111
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 3: was okay, there's a reason another woman who worked very

1112
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 3: closely with Hugh Hefner literally set you up to be raped,

1113
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 3: and she could not connect that even today. And that's

1114
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 3: kind of that conversation that we like, it's so jarring

1115
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 3: to see.

1116
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: And I don't know if she noticed it.

1117
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 3: I doubt she did after I don't know if you

1118
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 3: watched the entire thing, but like herself, the woman that

1119
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 3: was on the documentary, but that's the level of like

1120
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 3: conversations that people really really forget that there's a connection here.

1121
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 4: Oh my god, totally. So the way that you clocked

1122
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: that is so insightful.

1123
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 5: And from listening to a lot of The Girl's Next

1124
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 5: Level podcast and from reading a lot of the memoirs

1125
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 5: that I think that is still an undercurrent where I

1126
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 5: do think a lot of the women who were in

1127
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 5: this orbit, whether they believe that something coercive happened to

1128
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 5: them or not, I think a lot of them are

1129
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 5: still doing currently doing the work of like processing that

1130
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 5: and put and like contextualizing it. And I think that

1131
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 5: when you are steeped in this world that is really

1132
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 5: about putting women against each other, surveillance and exploitation, like

1133
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 5: a lot of the women talk about, everybody in their

1134
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 5: orbit is also kind of like vying for their job,

1135
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 5: and so you don't know who to trust a lot

1136
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 5: of surveillance.

1137
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 4: I think that that.

1138
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 5: Kind of environment would make any would be tough for anybody.

1139
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 5: And I really see the ways that, like even today,

1140
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 5: I'm not sure that they have truly processed what that

1141
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 5: has done to them and how that has colored their

1142
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 5: own internal understanding of what happened, because I really see

1143
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 5: a lot of them sort of doing a lot of

1144
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 5: that work in public, And I think for anybody that

1145
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 5: would be really.

1146
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 3: Tough, right absolutely, that what really was the back and

1147
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 3: forth of like them not being able to fully blame

1148
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 3: the perpetrator and not fully understanding the depth the things

1149
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,439
Speaker 3: that have gone through because again, this is that same level,

1150
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 3: and I really want to highlight for conservative people or

1151
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: at least like those who would be very like conspiratory people,

1152
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: like this is groomy, this is trafficking. If you want

1153
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 3: to know what we are talking about and what rooming

1154
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 3: and trafficking truly looks like, this is it because these

1155
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 3: women have been told and in like till today, like

1156
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 3: people still find Playboy as a mecca or the all

1157
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 3: like final realm of being sexy and a professional. Like

1158
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 3: you see so many athletes coming into like I can

1159
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 3: be both these things and these are going to meld

1160
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 3: my image into this beautiful way of whatever whatnot, which

1161
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 3: you know, we'll come back to the fact that that's

1162
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 3: taken a long time to get to there. And they

1163
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 3: want to credit Playboy for this, this level of acceptance

1164
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 3: as being a feminine woman, because that's what Playboy chouts

1165
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 3: as well as an athlete like these things as a

1166
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 3: way of opening up their image. But what we're looking

1167
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 3: at here is that young women being told, oh my god,

1168
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 3: you're so pretty, you're so beautiful. We really want to

1169
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 3: help you grow your career, We really want to help

1170
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 3: you do these things. If you want to do these

1171
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 3: test shoes. We're only going to do things that make

1172
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 3: you felt comfortable. Oh you're uncomfortable. Here, let me give

1173
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 3: you some a little bit of a little bit of vodka. Here,

1174
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: it'll be good. You gonna will helps you put to ease.

1175
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 3: We're gonna get you here.

1176
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: Look at this picture. Isn't this beautiful of you? Oh

1177
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: my god? We want here to meet somebody, meet so

1178
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: and so.

1179
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 3: And the love bombing, which one of the older playmates

1180
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 3: who she was like the star essentially of the first season,

1181
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 3: Sonya Theodore, who was one of first girlfriends in the mansion,

1182
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 3: talked about that this level of like conversation and grooming

1183
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 3: and coming into being like, Oh, you're so loved, You're

1184
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 3: so adored, You're the best thing for me, and everybody

1185
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 3: talking about how she was so in love with with

1186
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: how hef was so in love with her. Again, U,

1187
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 3: these people would be like they should have gotten married.

1188
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 3: He truly loved her, She truly loved him and all

1189
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 3: these things to the point that her daughter was like

1190
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,439
Speaker 3: mad at her mom at first for doing these types

1191
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 3: of documentaries because she didn't understand the depth of abuse

1192
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 3: that she because she was told by her mother that

1193
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 3: has really changed their life, really put them into such

1194
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 3: a better place, really loved and cared for her. But

1195
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 3: in her story she talks about like really like loving

1196
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: him and really wanting to do these things for him

1197
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 3: and being there for him and experiencing these new things

1198
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 3: and getting away from her ugly past into all of

1199
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 3: a sudden being like, oh, I have to recruit other

1200
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 3: girls to be a part of this, begging other girls

1201
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 3: to be a part of this, so she didn't know

1202
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 3: she didn't have to suffer alone, Like she talks about that,

1203
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 3: to the point that she also talks about like being

1204
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 3: handed over to his guy friends and her telling him,

1205
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 3: this hurts me.

1206
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: This dude hurts me.

1207
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 3: I don't make me do this, and he just laughing

1208
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 3: at her and moving on like stuff like that, Like

1209
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: this is like, this is trafficking. This this is screaming.

1210
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 3: Let me show you what this is. And this is

1211
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 3: happening to what you see as a quintessential you know victim,

1212
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 3: this white woman who has like it and but many

1213
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: people when after her saying she chose this.

1214
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: Life so like those who's.

1215
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 3: Spout trafficking and blad trafficking is awful. We need to

1216
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 3: stop trafficking. Also doesn't believe that this is trafficking.

1217
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 5: Oh my god, So you're talking about the experience of

1218
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 5: his first girlfriend. I have read the memoir of I guess,

1219
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 5: like his last girlfriend, the woman who was married.

1220
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 4: To him when he died.

1221
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: Yes, she just released that.

1222
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,479
Speaker 4: I recommended it was a very good read.

1223
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 5: I know that when her memoir was released, people in

1224
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 5: the Playboy Ordbert were like, Oh, she's just lying, Like

1225
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 5: she shows this life but toward the end, I mean,

1226
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 5: you're talking about trafficking. Toward the end of the book,

1227
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 5: so she describes what it's like to be in the mansion,

1228
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 5: which it just sounds awful. I want to give some

1229
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 5: tidbits about it, but it just it just sounds awful.

1230
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 5: But when she decides like I don't want to do

1231
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 5: this anymore. I want to leave, the way that she

1232
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 5: has to get out because of the way money works

1233
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 5: within the mansion, but women are given an allowance of

1234
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 5: a thousand dollars a week. It's this stop ritual where

1235
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 5: they have to go to hef and ask for the

1236
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 5: money and he's like, well, I guess you've been a

1237
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 5: good girl. Here you go, and they it's a thousand

1238
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 5: dollars cash. They're not allowed to really do work to

1239
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 5: earn money outside of Playboy. Every now and then they

1240
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 5: can do like appearances or something, but all of that

1241
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 5: really has to go through Playboy unless they do like

1242
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 5: a centerfold or an image, and then they get like

1243
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 5: a little bit of a talent, a little bit of

1244
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 5: a talent feed side note, the women who were on

1245
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 5: Girls next Door did not get paid.

1246
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 4: Didn't get paid.

1247
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 5: The first person to bring up what like they should

1248
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 5: be paid was Kendra and that was after the second season.

1249
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 5: Hugh hefter got four hundred thousand dollars an episode and

1250
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 5: was barely in the show. And to like, you know,

1251
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 5: the only way that these women could really make money

1252
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 5: was through Playboy. And so Crystal when she was like

1253
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 5: I've had enough of this, she basically started kind of

1254
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 5: like scurolling away her money and saving it up and

1255
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 5: like moving her stuff out of the house little by little.

1256
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 4: And the way that she has to get out.

1257
01:02:58,320 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 5: Is the way that you would have to get out

1258
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 5: of such a that you are not really in consensually.

1259
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 5: Before I read her memoir, I was like, oh, it

1260
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 5: does sound like this is coercive or whatever.

1261
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 4: Whatever.

1262
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 5: She was being low key kept against her will when

1263
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 5: she had finally had enough. At one point, she recounts

1264
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 5: that when she was trying to like physically leave, she

1265
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 5: had to be like, Oh, I'm just going to the

1266
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 5: store to get some tampons, and then she had to

1267
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 5: like get in her car and like split and that

1268
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 5: when they realized that she was trying to leave, Hugh

1269
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 5: Hefner was like, don't let her leave, And then it

1270
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 5: occurs to her She's like, oh, I'm actually genuinely being

1271
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 5: held against my will a little bit. And so when

1272
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 5: you say when you use words like trafficking, I think

1273
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 5: people think that we're using it as a euphemism.

1274
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 4: But if you are in a living situation that you have.

1275
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 5: You can only leave via secretly hiding money away and

1276
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 5: lying about where you're going, and when you try to leave,

1277
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 5: somebody physically restrains you.

1278
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 4: You tell me what that sounds like, you know, right?

1279
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 3: But that's the problem is like when we talk about

1280
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 3: exploitation here, an exploitation, by the way, is a nice

1281
01:03:56,560 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 3: word for this, Like I really wish like a we

1282
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 3: will I think actually go deeper into it, because like again, kidnapping,

1283
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 3: coercal trafficking, those were the things that were happening, rape,

1284
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 3: sexual assault, drugging, all of these things were happening in

1285
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 3: this era and in connection to so I think this

1286
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 3: is the biggest thing, is like part of the conversation

1287
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 3: that people want to have is that it wasn't him.

1288
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: He didn't know what's going on.

1289
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 3: But this dude was a control free because the camera's everywhere.

1290
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 3: In fact, Tony Curtis, who legendary actor part of that,

1291
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 3: didn't know and actually came in and I.

1292
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: Believe, I don't know if he sued him.

1293
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: I think he did sue him to get any video

1294
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 3: that would have of him because he freaked out, did

1295
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 3: not realize what was happening. Like, so we know those

1296
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 3: were there. That has been accounted for. That is a fact.

1297
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 3: Every single person that worked there, every single person that

1298
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 3: went there for a long period of time, knew those

1299
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 3: who existed after a certain amount of time, not at first,

1300
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 3: not at first. It finally came out and people started

1301
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 3: figuring out, oh, oh, he's keeping tabs because there was

1302
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 3: a power play. There was a kink and a power play.

1303
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 3: And it's interesting that when we talk about the exploitation,

1304
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 3: because it can range from anything to just using photos

1305
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 3: of women to make money off of it. Two, which

1306
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 3: is bad enough to once again sending them to a night,

1307
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 3: remote isolated area to a man who has asked to

1308
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 3: essentially buy them.

1309
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: Which included Trump by the way.

1310
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 3: And to use them allegedly allegedly, and to the fact

1311
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 3: that women not knowing this was happening. So when they

1312
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 3: got there, thinking they're going in for a modeling job.

1313
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 3: And the story with Trump was she was told that

1314
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 3: she was going to the Tropicana campaign, was gonna be modeling,

1315
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 3: shows up and she's like, oh, sitting and talking to him,

1316
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 3: having dinner with him, doing all those things, and he

1317
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 3: was like. She was like, okay, so let's when why

1318
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 3: I start this and he was.

1319
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: Like, look, that's not happening. That's not a thing. You're

1320
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: not here for modeling.

1321
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 3: And she was like, excuse me, and she called somebody

1322
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 3: and said I'm not doing this and she immediately left.

1323
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 3: She did say, nothing happened, but that was the setup,

1324
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 3: Like he she had gotten set up to be a

1325
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 3: sex thing for Trump against her will, like being co warced,

1326
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 3: like hoping that they could just scare her into it,

1327
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 3: and that happened.

1328
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 4: And we have a word for that.

1329
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 5: Someone who is being coerced against their will into doing

1330
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 5: sexual activities with somebody that they don't want to do

1331
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 5: that with.

1332
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 4: The law has a word for that. It's trafficking.

1333
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 5: That's that's not like us being hysterical or something.

1334
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 4: That's that's the word. And so I feel like when.

1335
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 5: We yeah, I just I think it's easy to make

1336
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 5: it seem like we're like like talking about this in

1337
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 5: a way that is exaggerated. But you tell to me

1338
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 5: what that sounds like.

1339
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 3: Right exactly, And that's exactly the conversation is, like, y'all

1340
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 3: never really say it, because I don't really think they

1341
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 3: mention trafficking in the documentary, and I'm freaking out of

1342
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 3: the social worker going, that's the epitome.

1343
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: This is what's happening.

1344
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 3: You have bought yourself a group of women through a

1345
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 3: promise of fame and money to do your bidding to

1346
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 3: get power or money from other beings, and they have

1347
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 3: no controller say except they are owed to this to

1348
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 3: you in their minds, in the minds of the power

1349
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 3: to be that they owe this to you because you're

1350
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 3: trying to do these things for them.

1351
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 1: Maybe right, they play the game.

1352
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 5: And within the context of the women like Holly Bridget, Kendra, Crystal,

1353
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 5: the twins Christina and Crisa. It's a lot more explicit

1354
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 5: that this is an exchange of sex for money within

1355
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 5: the context of like the girl's next door ecosystem, like

1356
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 5: the like all of the girls are clear we are

1357
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 5: expected to have nightly orgies on film with Hugh and

1358
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 5: we are paid one thousand dollars a week allowance for that,

1359
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 5: and we get room and board for that. Like that

1360
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 5: is that is much more explicit for the women who

1361
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 5: are living.

1362
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 4: In the house. And it's curious to me how.

1363
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 5: People would then have trouble believing that outside of the house.

1364
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 5: For the women who were just sort of in the

1365
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 5: orbit in a perferal way, how's that kind of same

1366
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 5: dynamic would still be there, Like I'm like, this is

1367
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 5: the drill.

1368
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,719
Speaker 4: Obviously, this is the drill. The women who lived within

1369
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 4: the house say, this is what happened.

1370
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 5: They had a very clear understanding of this as a

1371
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 5: kind of job where the thing that they had to

1372
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 5: do was sexual favors. Why would that Why would that

1373
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 5: not be the case for the women who were just

1374
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 5: modeling or the women who were peripherally in the Playboy.

1375
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 3: Orbit, right, right, Uh, so, I was saying that I

1376
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 3: had the names of the girlfriends, and I have to

1377
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 3: tell you that the title of the article, which is

1378
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 3: how from Hollywoodlife dot com puts it, Hugh Hefner and

1379
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 3: the women who loved him, And I think the chunk

1380
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 3: of them were like, we didn't love him. We were

1381
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 3: just told that we would get money. Yeah, which I'm like,

1382
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 3: why would you posted that way then? And I say

1383
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 3: they actually write that for the twins. By the way,

1384
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 3: the twins were nineteen years old when they were flown there.

1385
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 3: They had like sure they were They had sex before,

1386
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 3: but they never had sex together, and being with Hugh

1387
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 3: Hefner was the first time because they were living his fantasy.

1388
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 2: Oh so, I think we're gonna have to turn this

1389
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 2: into a two parter. It's clear that we have a

1390
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 2: lot to say surprise, surprise, feminists have a lot to

1391
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 2: say about Hugh Hefner. So we'll come back with the

1392
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: part two. But in the mean time, Bridget, where can

1393
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:33,879
Speaker 2: the good listeners find you?

1394
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 5: You can find me at I Hate Hugh Hefner dot

1395
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:40,839
Speaker 5: org just kidding, you can listen to my podcast.

1396
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 4: There are no girls on the internet.

1397
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 5: It's important to deconstruct all of the ways that media

1398
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 5: and technology has been used to exploit. And we do that,

1399
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 5: and so I'm thankful that you all do that too

1400
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 5: and gave me the space to really lay that bear

1401
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 5: when it comes to Playboy and Hugh Hefner and listeners.

1402
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 2: If you would like to contact us, you can. You

1403
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: can email it Stephanie and moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

1404
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:02,879
Speaker 2: You can find it's on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,

1405
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff when Never Told You.

1406
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 2: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store,

1407
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you

1408
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina,

1409
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 2: our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey. Thank you

1410
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:17,640
Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never Told You,

1411
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 2: the productive of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on my

1412
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,

1413
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,440
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.