1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you From House top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. Caroline. Have you ever been to 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: a man cave? I mean, I guess that's what you 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: could call the dark, dank healthscape that is the basement 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: at my parents house where my father hoards all of 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: his personal belongings and things. But no, not like the 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: stereotypical like I've got race metals and Dale Earnhardt posters 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: on the wall type of place, you know, Now that 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: I think about it, Caroline, I don't think I have 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: been to an official man cave either, but maybe it's 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: just because we aren't allowed in man caves. Yeah, we 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: don't have the password. There's a secret knock well for 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: those listeners who might be confused and also a little 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: bit horrified. Might you might not have heard this term 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: man cave before. We do have a handy definition from 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: the esteemed website epic man cave dot net. Yes, there's 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: a whole there's a whole dot net dedicated to it. Uh. Yeah. 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: They define it as a space for men to kick 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 1: back and relax away from the annoyances of everyday life. 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: They can be decorated entirely by men without fear of 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: upsetting their partners, and are often used to show off 23 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: sports memorabilia. Man caves are also a great place to 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: have a quote unquote boys night, perhaps to play a 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: game of poker or watch a big sports event. I 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: love sports events without worrying about creating a mess in 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: the house. They are becoming a necessity. They are becoming 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: a necessity. This is like critical language that apparently they 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: haven't been one to every man's life and have been 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: widely dubbed as the last bastion of masculinity. So, Christen, 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: what does that tell you about a man cave? It 32 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: tells me that we have to talk about man caves 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: because anythinging that is dubbed the last bath the end 34 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: of masculinity, is essentially just a siren song for you 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and I to to do what we do here on 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you. And it tells me too 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: that there is some real intense gendering of domestic spaces 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: going on, which, not surprisingly, we've talked about this before 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: in our podcast not so Long Ago on interior Design. 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: We've talked about it before in the context of say, 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: kitchens and women's place being in the home um and 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: the fact that, especially in the twenty one century, we 43 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: now have this term man cave, also known as a 44 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: mantuary or a man space or just a manly retreat, 45 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: is notable that we are, rather than moving away from 46 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: gendering these spaces, it seems like, at least for some households, 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: it's becoming even more segregated in a way. If it's 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: funny because you mentioned the gendering of spaces in the house, 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: like kitchens, but it's not as if the kitchen really 50 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: equates to a man cave. I mean, yes, you might 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: like cooking whoever you are, man or woman or whatever, 52 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: but that's still a place of work where work has 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: to be done with a purpose to feed yourself and others. 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: Whereas this man cave concept is purely sort of an escape. 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a retreat. It's it's a place where a 56 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: lot of men in the study that will refer to 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: you later, a lot of these guys were interviewed and 58 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: said that it's a place they go to sort of 59 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: reflect on life and get away from the stresses of 60 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: both work and family. And I wouldn't say that any 61 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: female gendered space in the house is quite equivalent. And Caroline, 62 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: you also mentioned your dad having his basement quote unquote 63 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: man cave, even though I have a feeling your dad 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: did not call it a man cave. And my dad 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: had slash has a similar kind of thing. His office 66 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: is in the basement, and growing up, that's where he 67 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: would be if you couldn't find bad he was downstairs, 68 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: like that was his space. I think it was very 69 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: convenient for him for it to be in the basement, 70 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: so completely removed from the family. Not to say that 71 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: my dad doesn't love me and my family. Um so, 72 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: especially since this is Father's Day Week, we wanted to 73 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: dig more into the man cave thing because this term 74 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: is new. But the idea of men in particular having 75 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: these particular spaces in the home really isn't They just 76 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: gone by more generic names like office library is the 77 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: correct pronunciation of library library? Yeah, And I mean I 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: think I think what is new. What I would argue 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: is new is all of the stuff around, like shows 80 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: that you have on d I Y or hd TV, 81 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: specifically about man Case and having everything be like super 82 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: themed and like, oh my god, it's an indoor golf course. 83 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: With a cagarade with fifteen kegs in it, you know, 84 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and other like you know, quote unquote manly things like 85 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: I think that's a new concept. But yeah, the whole 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: idea of like having a masculine space to which you 87 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: can retreat to write your great American novel like that 88 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: is that's nothing new. Yeah. So Art of Manliness, for instance, 89 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: rounded up historical man caves in quotes that included things 90 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: like Hemingway's riding room and Key West Teddy Roosevelt's trophy 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: room in his house in or Oyster Bay in New York, 92 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 1: Mark Twain's writing hut, which, by the way, I want 93 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: a riding hut so bad now, Carolina. It's this beautiful 94 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: little like is it a hexagon shaped? But it's this 95 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: beautiful little hut with these huge windows that sits on 96 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: a hilltop and he's just got the countryside spread out 97 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: around him and I would right there. Yeah. He had 98 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: it built on his sister's property because he was like, 99 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm Mark Twain, and I've got important 100 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: things to write, but I need to be by myself 101 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: to do it. Hut of one zone, that's all I want. Yeah. 102 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: They also featured Thorow's cabin. All he had was a 103 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: bed and a desk with a chair and I think 104 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: a table with a chair and a big screen TV 105 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: with Netflix and HBO go on it. And even Winston 106 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Churchill's art studio where he would go to when he 107 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: felt the black dog of depression clothing and he would 108 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: go paint. Yeah. So again, these are not necessarily man caves. 109 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: These are simply offices, library studios, huts, billiard rooms, trophy rooms, 110 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: places where these very famous and successful men would go 111 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: to do their work or maybe take some time just 112 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: like out of the day hang out relaxed, as in 113 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: the case of like a billiards room. Um, but at 114 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: the time when these guys were hanging out there, I 115 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: doubt they were, you know, having to tell their friends, Uh, yeah, bro, 116 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't hang out this weekend. I'm gonna man cave 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: it up. Although I don't know that anyone has ever 118 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: had that phone call before. It would be more like 119 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: a man caving it up. You should come over exactly 120 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: and and we'll we'll we'll foster some homo sociality. Yes, well, 121 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: and speaking Caroline of homo sociality. This is something that 122 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Florida named James B. Twitchell 123 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: wrote an entire book about He teamed up with a 124 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: photographer to create this book called Where Men Hide, and 125 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: it focuses on not so much on the man cave idea, 126 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: but on the more men only, homo social places, these 127 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: gathering spaces for men. In Twitchell in the book argues 128 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: that men have been hiding away, as he puts it, 129 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: for forever, whether it is kind of in the more 130 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: isolated setting of a workshop, garage, home office, or in 131 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: more fraternal spaces like Masonic lodges, pool halls, barbershops, or 132 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: strip clubs, and in the sort of nostalgic look at 133 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: these all male spaces. He Twitchell does more in the 134 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: loss of the more traditional spaces, you know, not so 135 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: much the garage dude still have their garage or you know, 136 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: like our dad's with their basements, But he does more 137 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: in the loss of those communal man spaces. And I 138 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: do think though, that it's important to put Twitchell's book 139 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: and this idea of mourning the loss of these spaces 140 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: in the context of it coming out around the same 141 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: time as this book called Bowling Alone by Robert d. Putnam, 142 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: which I had to read in journalism school. Caroline, I 143 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: don't know if you had to read it, I didn't. 144 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: I have had it on my shelf since two thousand seven. Well, 145 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: it's so dated now because it really focuses in on 146 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: this time of I guess in the late nineties really 147 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: where you see this erosion of more communal life, and 148 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: we're now, rather than being on bowling teams, were just 149 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: bowling alone. So it's sort of rides a similar kind of, 150 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: uh so more kind of theory about how like men 151 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: used to have these spaces to be together and hang 152 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: out and foster their home a sociality, but now they 153 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: they're alone, and they're just alone alone, they're not even 154 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: in like necessarily their own spaces. But I also do 155 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: think it's worth noting that Twitchell isn't really framing these spaces, 156 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: whether it is a home office or whether it is 157 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: a barbershop or whatever. It's not that it's so exclusionary. 158 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: It's more the result of what he says is social anxiety. 159 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: In a review of Twitchell's book, the reviewer rights, when 160 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: women want to get together, they just do it. When 161 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: men get together, it's a production and that that would 162 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: be like the Hey, I'm I'm man caving it up tonight. 163 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: Why don't you come over, Like we're gonna watch sports 164 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and we're gonna play video games and new other stereotypical 165 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: male things because we're getting away from the wife. Yeah. 166 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: So in that sense as well dig into later in 167 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, it's that is seen as a point in 168 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: favor of man caves of well, we used to have 169 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: these spaces outside the home. Those are gone because everybody's 170 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: quote unquote bowling alone. So yeah, I am gonna build 171 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: my mini golf course with my cagurator to be so large. Um. 172 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: And there was an academic paper that we found about this, 173 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: God bless you Academia called man Caves and Masculinity, And 174 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: in it the author charts a little bit of history 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: in terms of the development of these kinds of fraternal spaces, 176 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: and she notes that ProtoMan caves for just the everyday dude, 177 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: not necessarily the Winston Churchill or Teddy Roosevelt, who would 178 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: have like their own private estates that they could run 179 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: off to. This really started in the post World War 180 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: two era, when you have middle class American men coming 181 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: home from these violent brotherhood oriented battlefields to what some 182 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: considered very emasculating suburban homes, because of course we have 183 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: you know, with that Rosie the riveters all going home, 184 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: you have advertisers really pushing you know, the domesticity women. 185 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 1: You know, even with the fashions, it becomes more hyper feminized, 186 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: and then the guys come home and it's it's a 187 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: ladies palace. Well. Yeah. In this study, the authors also 188 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: point out that when you're a homeowner, part of your 189 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: identity is tied up in that house, and then you 190 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: sort of reflect your own identity, uh in the way 191 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: you decorate it. And so that's a theme that runs 192 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: throughout this whole paper and ties in a lot with 193 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: the idea of men having their own spaces, because if 194 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: the home, the internal workings of the home are all feminized, 195 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: and so then the house has this feminine identity that 196 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: men are returning to. It seems natural in that line 197 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: of thinking that they are carving out their own space 198 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: that is more masculine, but in the process doing some decoration, eating, 199 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: doing some space planning, things that are traditionally feminine, but 200 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: they are sort of validating their own space in the 201 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: house by putting their stamp on it. Yeah, and you 202 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: see that first happen in with the rise of post 203 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: World War two suburbia with things like garages and barbecuing. Uh. 204 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: The study author writes about barbecuing specifically that it quote 205 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: reasserted the post war males position outside the public sphere 206 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,239 Speaker 1: as a hunter, as well as offering men a refuge 207 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: in a traditional and stable identity. So you get this 208 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: balance of what I really am grappling with my masculinity. 209 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: I need to, you know, figure out how to kind 210 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: of exercise that and assert it. But at the same time, 211 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: I am still invested in this domesticity. How do I 212 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: make domesticity my own? So I'm going to go out 213 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: into the garage because also keeping in mind our podcast 214 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: on men and Cars and how that was marketed and 215 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: marketed in such amount askualing kind of way, it makes 216 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: sense that the garage would become, you know, the the 217 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: first man cave. Yeah. Well, I mean my dad when 218 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: I was growing up, my dad grilled a ton and 219 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: it was kind of that he was straddling that line 220 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: because when he went outside to grill, he was just 221 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: it was just him and the meat and the fire. 222 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: But he was making it for his to his two 223 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: gals inside the house. The exact same thing happened Caroline 224 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: when I went home to see my parents for Mother's Day. 225 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: Funnily enough, since this is a Father's Day podcast, when 226 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: my dad was grilling some chickens, and while I was 227 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: inside helping my mom, you know, prepare sides and all 228 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: that and hang out and catch up, he was outside 229 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: the whole time. And he had a book and he 230 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: had his chair, and he you know, he did not 231 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: need to be out there. Those chickens were fined on 232 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,599 Speaker 1: their own. And at one point I asked her, what, 233 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: what's what's that up to? Where is he? She said, Oh, 234 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: he's just outside. He's washing the chickens, got his book. Look, 235 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: he's happiest can be. It was kind of like a 236 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: let him, let him be, Let him be alone if 237 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: he wants to be. Yeah, well he's Maybe he's given 238 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: you in your mom's space too from Mother's Day. Yes, 239 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: but I think he really take pride in that act 240 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: of grilling, of watching over the meats, you know, in 241 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: such a concerted, if slightly unnecessary kind of way. Yeah. 242 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: Well so, I mean moving from the garage and the 243 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: grill pit as sort of traditional male spaces. We've also 244 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: got plenty of pop cultural references. Um, like Tim Allen's 245 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: garage on Home Improvement, there's another garage, Al Bundy's and 246 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: Archie Bunker's chairs, uh, Fred Flintstone's elk Lodge. But also 247 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking that the dude's apartment on Friends could 248 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: count as a man cave because everybody was always over 249 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: at Monica and Rachel's apartment that was like the main hangout. 250 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: But then the guys had their own apartment across the 251 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: hall that was kind of like a man cave. Yeah, 252 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: because they had their matching leather. Lazy Boy said they 253 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: would recline at the same time and it wasn't that funny, 254 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: and they had completely different decor. I mean, Caroline, you 255 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: and I could do an entire podcast just on lazy 256 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: boys and recliners and the idea of it, as was 257 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: pointed out in this paper, as a different kind of 258 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: throne for the man of the house. Yeah. Well, I 259 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: mean one other one that I thought of was the 260 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: bat cave, which is literally a cave for for a man. 261 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: Mr Batt, Yeah, for the We're Mr Batt and is 262 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: that Batman Friends hang out? Bill Bettman His Cave. If 263 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: you guys haven't seen Bill Batman, it's a great show. 264 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: So it is interesting though, to see how pop culture 265 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: in the decades since World War Two has really fostered 266 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: this idea, which leads us into this twenty century resurgence 267 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: of the man cave with all this new man cave lingo. 268 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: Because that's the thing about all of this, it's not 269 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: new ideologically, it's just new linguistically. We just now have 270 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: this this twenty very two thousand's era language for it. 271 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: And in two thousand six, for instance, there was a 272 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: publication of Sam Martin's book called man Space, A Primal 273 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: Guide to Marking Your Territory, and the Chicago Tribune did 274 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: an interview with Sam Martin about his book, and a 275 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: quote really jumped out to me. So he says, keep 276 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: in mind when this is happening, because I think the 277 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: interview was taking place maybe in two thousand seven, and 278 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: he says, quote, men have had an identity problems since 279 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: the Women's movement. They've tried to figure out who they're 280 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: supposed to be. For a while, women wanted them to 281 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: be more sensitive, so they were more sensitive. Then women 282 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: wanted them to be more manly. One of the things 283 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: I discovered is when men have their own man space, 284 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: what they put inside of it is really expression of 285 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: who they are. Man space is about establishing an identity 286 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: for a man. And that's exactly what we read about 287 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: in that paper, man Caves and masculinity. It goes all 288 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: the way back to when people were first moving to 289 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: the suburbs and droves around and after World War Two. 290 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: But Martin would argue that it was really women's fault. 291 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 1: It was women wanting, making too many demands, and you know, 292 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: you know how women are flighty and can't take up 293 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: their mind all the time. That finally, you know, men 294 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: are pushed to create these so called man spaces. So 295 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, in two thousand seven you have the premiere 296 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: of the show Man Caves, where you have it's the 297 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: home renovation thing where dude gets a man cave. Yeah, 298 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: and I love I love just how I mean baldly 299 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: like out there stereotypical chest not thing male it is. 300 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm being sarcastic when I say that I 301 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: love it. And I remember my boyfriend and I saw 302 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: commercial for this show and we both just sort of 303 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: rolled our eyes at each other because I mean, he 304 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: definitely is the type of person who he needs his 305 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: own space at the house, but that's because he works 306 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: there like he works at home, and so he needs 307 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 1: his own space, just like I need my own space. 308 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: And they don't have to be gendered though necessarily, they 309 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 1: just have to be spaces that allow us to actually 310 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: be productive. Yeah, I mean, and I watched a brief 311 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: clip of man caves, and Caroline, I was doing just 312 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: as much I rolling as you were when I watched 313 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: some man caves clips, because you know, I gotta I 314 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: gotta do more research. And the description of one segment 315 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: was his office became a nursery, so Mike gets a 316 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: basement speakeasy man cave. And Mike, by the way, like 317 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: in the voiceover for the beginning of this segment, they're like, well, 318 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: Mike was even able to sneak away from the hospital 319 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: where his wife was to come plan out the man cave. 320 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: It's cool. No, that's that's where That's where I think 321 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: there's a problem, when when the space is actually keeping 322 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: you from being with your family. Well, later they brought 323 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: the wife in show her to show her what she 324 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: will never be able to use well with this man cave. 325 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: It can double as a family room, but with the 326 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: speakeasy theme. They're hidden bars. They're hidden bars, They're hidden 327 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: like photos of scantily glad ladies. There's a really unfortunate 328 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 1: portrait of Mike smoking a cigar wearing a fedora on 329 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: the wall. What is it? What is it about suddenly 330 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: having a family, whether it's you've just gotten married or 331 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: you've just had kids, that suddenly entitles you the man 332 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: person to a cave? Why why does the lady not 333 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: get a space? Why would you want one? Well, yeah, 334 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: well because he got kicked out of the office because 335 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: the office became the nursery, Caroline. So this is happening 336 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: though in two thousand seven, and one of the things 337 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: I was most tickled about with this research was how 338 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: much the Wall Street Journal latched on and has not 339 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: let go of the man cave trend. They have an 340 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: entire man cave beat, I kid you not people, and 341 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: they reported on it so feverishly, and and perhaps because 342 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: really in the late two thousands, a man cave industry 343 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: was born. I mean you have uh something called man 344 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: cave LLC that one article reported on which is quote 345 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: modeled after Mary Kay cos medics where guys hold barbecue 346 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: parties dubbed meetings. That's m E A T I n G. 347 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: To sell steak in cave a coutrement such as bacon 348 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: scented candles and beer pagers to locate lost brew. Caroline 349 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: is just bowing her head in disbelief. But I love 350 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: it's modeled after Mary Kay, because do you think they 351 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: could like a bacon print Cadillac if they sell enough accouterment. Listen, 352 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: if they do, I might shine up to become a sale. Well, 353 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: I guess I don't think you're allowed. Yeah, I don't 354 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: know that I'm allowed. And they're also online retailers like 355 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: man Cave market dot com and the man Cave Outlet 356 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: Store because apparently it's so big now that they're outlets 357 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: for it. Um So I mean, considering how this has 358 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: ballooned into revenue streams, I mean I think it says something, well, yeah, 359 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: and so like once we see we've seen it on TV, 360 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: we've seen it written about in books, But once we 361 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: see it on the big screen and movies like I 362 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: Love You Man and once, paint companies start making money 363 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 1: off of man Cave paint with names like beer, Time, 364 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: bro Code and zombie Apocalypse. We're not making this up. Listeners. 365 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: There is a Canadian paint company called c I L 366 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: that did just that in two thousand eleven. Yeah, so once, once, 367 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: this is happening, and in the Wall Street Journal circles 368 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: back around this year in and starts reporting on how 369 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: man caves are getting lucks. Like this is not just 370 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: like I'm going to carve out a space in the basement. 371 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my old recliner that the old lady 372 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: won't let me keep in the living room anymore, and 373 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a big screen TV. This is 374 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: like I'm going to spend thousands upon thousands upon thousands 375 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: of dollars to have a room of my own. Yeah. 376 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: I mean this clearly profiled incredibly wealthy men, one of 377 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: whom is just a single guy who built himself what 378 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: they called a tech layer that cost over a hundred 379 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. It's like, oh, you know, he can have 380 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: movie night. He has all these bells and whistles, um, 381 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: there are TVs in the bathroom and then things like that. 382 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: But it was so funny when like by the end 383 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: of it, they were like and he lives alone. So 384 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: it's like, does that still constitute a man cave if 385 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: our man cave is just now becoming a catch all 386 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: term for well, it's like a Russian nesting doll. It's 387 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: like his whole apartment is like the huge man cave, 388 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: the bachelor path. Yeah, it's a bachelor pad, and then 389 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: you get within it, you get the man cave, and 390 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: then and then the bathroom, the man the mathroom, the 391 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: mathroom where you don't have to do any math fellas, 392 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: thank goodness, unless you really want to. Well, so what 393 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: what is going on? Like, what is this cultural push? 394 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: Why are man caves exploding? Why? Well, I guess they 395 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: have been exploding since the forties and fifties, But what 396 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: is this cultural focus on it now? Well, Caroline, we're 397 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: going to talk about that when we come right back 398 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: from a quick break. So the basic explanations for this 399 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: so called man spacing are pretty much what we have 400 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: touched on already. The idea that the domestic space is 401 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: hyperfemineis and men need these specific places they can go 402 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: and really not have to see all of the fru 403 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: fruit decor and also signs of children. These are the 404 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: two main things that come up a lot what you 405 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: talked about earlier in terms of the decoration conflict of 406 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: feeling like your aesthetic is not being reflected anywhere around 407 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: the house. You walk in and it's just a foreign environment. 408 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: And then also walking in and seeing the you know, 409 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: the evidence of little people, little little toys and play 410 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: pens and such. Yeah, and then also revisiting the idea 411 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: about that darnal women's movement that made men also feel 412 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: like they needed to carve out a space where they 413 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: could sort of reaffirm their masculine identities. Yeah, it was 414 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: really interesting to see how often feminism was referenced in 415 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: these pieces that the ones that we're asking like, well, 416 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: why was this going on? Um, because it does seem 417 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: to bear a lot of the quote unquote blame for it, 418 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: because it's not only with the feminism argument. It's not 419 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: so much about I hate your design aesthetic, please let 420 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: me put up my packers framed jersey on the wall, 421 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: but rather I need a space where I can go 422 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: and not have to worry about offending you with not 423 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: only my my comments about about ladies bodies, but also 424 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: my cursing and also too farting. Farting comes up a 425 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: space to fart, and I'm not joking. Space took fart 426 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: also comes up a lot as like, do people not 427 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: know that women fart all the time? What, Caroline, I 428 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: just did? No, I didn't. I try not to do 429 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: it and try not to hot. But it's weird. It's 430 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: weird that glitter has a smell. Well, but this is 431 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: the same stuff that you here ticked off when people 432 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: are worried about women getting certain jobs in certain industries. 433 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, And it like reminds me too of our 434 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: pin Ups episode where you see the decline of those 435 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: Nudi girl calendars that used to be up in you know, 436 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: more all male workspaces because all of a sudden, the 437 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: seventies came around and women don't want to see sexy 438 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: women on the walls. It's not okay anymore, Lyan, And 439 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure all of this is related because 440 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: as you have more women entering the workforce, suddenly the 441 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: workforce is no longer a purely male space, and so 442 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: it's like, how am I ever going to get away 443 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: from women? Yeah? I mean like, well, thankfully, Caroline, we do, 444 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, have an entire study to discuss 445 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: and it was. It was honestly fascinating reading. So it's 446 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: called man Caves and Masculinity, as we mentioned earlier, by 447 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: Risto Moisio and Miriam baruchus Villi published in the Journal 448 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: of Consumer Culture, and essentially they did was interview a 449 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: lot of guys, all white, middle class, midwestern married guys, 450 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: about man caves and the idea of man caves. Not 451 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: all of them had man caves, but most of them did, 452 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: and and all had thoughts on man caves. And they 453 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: pointed out in the beginning of the paper that previous 454 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: research on these kinds of masculine gendered spaces really focused 455 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: outside of the home, places like golf courses and barbershops, 456 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier and more recently ESPN Zone and Caroline, 457 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: I really want to now read that study about men 458 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: and ESPN Zone, um, but they really wanted to look 459 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: inside the home, right because, like we said earlier, the 460 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: house is part of the homeowners identity, and your identity 461 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: is shaped in part by its decoration. And so, like 462 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: Christoper was saying, if you walk into a space and 463 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't reflect who you feel you are what it 464 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: should look like, there's a sort of discomfort there and 465 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: so inside the home, man caves join garages, den's, game rooms, 466 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: and even barbecue pits as these masculine defined domestic spaces 467 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: that are employed to affirm these ideals of masculinity. It's 468 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: where you can go and fart to your heart's content. Yeah, 469 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: and the study focuses more on what they call the 470 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: therapeutic uses of man caves in relationship to men's jobs, families, 471 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: and marital relationships. And what they really conclude is that 472 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: these spaces are helpful for managing what they call identity pressure, 473 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: essentially of being a dude living in today's world. And yeah, 474 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: where what does domesticity mean today? What does masculine gender 475 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: role mean? What does marriage mean? What is being a 476 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: father mean? There are a lot of like valid questions 477 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: that we ask about ourselves, you know, reverse everything and 478 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: insert feminine pronouns, like we think about these same kinds 479 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: of theme things too, And a couple of predominant themes emerged, right, 480 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: and so it keep part of these man caves that 481 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: was found throughout the research was that they're dominated by 482 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: super dudedly possession sports memorabilia, the old lazy boy cagurators, 483 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: which I kind of want a cagurator. Um. Also video 484 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: game consoles. That's a big thing too, for sure. Well, 485 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: my boyfriend and I are planning our future people cave 486 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: together and we totally want ski ball. Okay, we want 487 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: this to happen. You're invited over. Oh yeah, well I'm 488 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: a person. Yeah, you are a person, so you're welcome 489 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: to come over with the bill also for real. Um, 490 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: but this is sort of like it's a it's a 491 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: dude form of nesting. You know, they're picking their own decor, 492 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: they're picking their special comfy chair. Um. And it really 493 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: serves to legitimize and validate that space. Well, no, like 494 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: I need the space because I have this chair and 495 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: I need to watch this this sporting event. Yeah. And 496 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: it's where you feel the most comfortable and you're surrounded 497 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: by all of your things and uh and I totally 498 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: I can get that, for sure. I feel that way 499 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: when I am in my office at home. I love 500 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: it because it's all of my things and it's I 501 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: can close the door. Yeah, exactly, a room of one's Yeah, 502 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: well but these are these spaces. Also, the theme also 503 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,959 Speaker 1: involved productive consumption, so you know, whereas you might validate 504 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: your space by saying well, no, like I need a 505 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: place to put all this this, you know, ugly man 506 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: stuff that you don't want in the living room. They 507 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: also justify the space as well, this is where I 508 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: come to fix my broken motorcycle, fix the kids broken bikes. 509 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: It's it's productive leisure time. Yeah. And I gotta say though, 510 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: pro tip getting that motorcycle through the living room. That's tough. 511 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: That's a tough move. Yeah, you've really got a shampoo. 512 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: Those rugs pretty often put down some tarps before yeah. Um. 513 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: And In these interviews, though, the researchers highlighted a number 514 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: of primary man cave functions, the first of which was 515 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: preventing work stress from tainting family life. Okay, so it's 516 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: your place to decompress. You had a rough day. You 517 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: don't want to take it out on the wife and 518 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: if their kids around too, you don't want to do that. 519 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: You're just gonna go hang out. You're gonna play a 520 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: little call of duty and then pick back up when 521 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: dinner time. It's like it's like the airlock, the decompression 522 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: chamber in the in the old spaceship. Yeah, if you're 523 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: an astronaut, you'll know exactly what I mean by that, 524 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: we've got a lot of astronauts in the audience, Caroline, 525 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if they have space lazy boys. But then 526 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: in the same token, it's also used as a space 527 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: to help prevent that family stress and pressure that you're 528 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: feeling from then cycling back out and affecting your family exactly. 529 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: And the researchers note at the guys who cited this 530 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: function for their personal man caves of having the space 531 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of away from families when they're driving them up 532 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: the wall. They see isolation rather than communication as a 533 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: productive tool to whether those kinds of familial challenges doesn't 534 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: work like that, relationships don't work like that? Right, Well, 535 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: I would argue it's important. I don't. I don't want to, 536 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, like get too far ahead, But I will, 537 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: I will say for now, it is important to at 538 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: least to be able to call time out over a minute. Sure. 539 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: But on a brighter note though, it can also provide 540 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: a space to interact with kids in and this is 541 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: interesting in a less emotionally forward way. So this is 542 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: where the video game console comes in. There are a 543 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: number of guys talking about how you know, I'm not 544 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: really you know, a lovey dovey, touchy feely kind of dad. 545 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: But I want to bond with my son, and so 546 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: we hang out and my man cave together and we 547 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: play video games and that's how we end up catching 548 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: up on the day and just being together. Yeah. And 549 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: one one guy they interviewed, like over and over again 550 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: was repeating the fact that like, this is how I'm 551 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: going to get my son into sports. This is gonna 552 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: be how I teach my son about sports. This is 553 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: how I teach my son to be a sports fan. 554 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: It's like, all right, dude, jeez, we get it. You 555 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: want your son to like sports. I get it. But 556 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: it kind of goes back to what's the saying that, like, 557 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: when women do things together, they're facing one another, when 558 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: men do things together, they're facing out or side by side. Right, 559 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same thing, the same idea with 560 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: how they want to bond with their kids. Yeah, yeah, 561 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and and also bond with their friends, because 562 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: that's another that the last big function of these spaces 563 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: is to preserve male friendships that homer sociality after marriage 564 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: and kids happen. And that's you know, again understandable once 565 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: you get involved in your LTR long term relationship. Sometimes 566 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: casual friendships and the regularity of interacting face to face 567 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: with your friends can definitely follow the wayside. Yeah, but 568 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: not all men, Not all men are are interested in 569 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: this traditional idea of a man cave, of escaping the family, 570 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: of getting away from conflict, or just communication period. There 571 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: were some guys that the researchers talked to who were like, 572 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: I actually think that's kind of regressive, and would actually 573 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: like to share a space with my family, or my 574 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: wife and I have an office together and we're not 575 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: necessarily in there at the same time all the time, 576 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: but it's a shared space. Um So I think my 577 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: boyfriend would fall into this category of I don't want 578 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: to deliberately isolate myself if it might negatively affect my relationship. 579 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: And perhaps we should have said this earlier, but by 580 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: focusing this episode on man caves, we are not, then, 581 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: by extension, assuming that all guys are really into man cave. 582 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: Because I gotta tell you, Caroline, in every conversation I've 583 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: had with a fella, some of my best friends are guys. 584 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: Every conversation I've had with a guy, and I've tried 585 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: to talk to some married dudes with kids about the 586 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: man cave idea too. Before we came into do this podcast, 587 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: we're a little like, oh god, really man caves. Oh no, 588 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: because I think pop culturally right now, maybe it was 589 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: different before decades and decades before, but right now man 590 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: cave is having a moment as like the crazy out there, 591 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: like to the extreme. It's basically the the house equivalent 592 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: of pent my ride. It's like, do you really need 593 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: a popcorn maker in your car? Pent my basement? Pent 594 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: my Basements the same thing. Yeah, And then we could 595 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: get into some gender e stuff about pimp being used 596 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: in such casual way. Well no, but I mean I 597 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: think that for some people that that that out there 598 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: man cave that we're talking about, the whole stereotypically like 599 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: super male space. I mean it has it does have 600 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: its female equivalence, and and there are women who want 601 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: an equally super uber feminine space to sort of get 602 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: away from any and all masculine things. Yeah, like a 603 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: kitchen with a door, right exactly. Yes, although, in all seriousness, 604 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: referencing my parents again, my mom does have a sewing 605 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: room and that growing up was her woman cave of sorts. Well, 606 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: if you remember on the Cosby Show, Cliff built Claire 607 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: her own mom cave and he literally like, I I'm 608 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: not kidding, I I am not kidding. I still think 609 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: about this as an adult person that I wish I 610 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: had it, because he insulated it so well that he's like, 611 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: once you close that door, you won't hear any thing. 612 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: You won't hear the kids yelling. There was like fresh 613 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,439 Speaker 1: new carpet. She had her own balcony, Like I would 614 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: just go in there and lie on the floor and nap. 615 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: It sounds wonderful. I remember that now that you mentioned it. Yeah, 616 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: maybe Clara Huxtable had the original she shed, because yes, Caroline, 617 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: that is a term. Yeah. When we posted this to Tumblr, 618 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: I was so entertained by the responses because it was 619 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: it was split. Fifty half of the responses were like, Oh, 620 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,479 Speaker 1: this is so cool. I want one of my own, 621 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: Like I would put my music stuff in there, or 622 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: my art stuff, or I would sew in there, or 623 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: just nap away from the children. The other half of 624 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: the responses were like seriously, basically the response that we 625 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: hear a lot to man caves. It was like, seriously, 626 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: you need your own hyper gendered space away from your family. 627 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: Here's a thing, Caroline. So speaking of hyper gendered spaces, 628 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: I do want to mention that in there was an 629 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: incredible trend a piece yet again in the Wall Street Journal. 630 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. They have the man cave beat covered up, 631 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: down and sideways, and this piece was about how man 632 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: caves are getting so nice, so we're about to reach 633 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: like peak man cave that their wives, these guys wives 634 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: wanted to use them too, but only for things like quilting. 635 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: And the reporter quotes a woman in the story named 636 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: Maria Butterfield who talks about hanging out in her husband's 637 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: NASCAR themed man cave, and she said, I enjoy being 638 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: in there because it's kind of like a little getaway 639 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: from the rest of the house. When I'm in there, 640 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm not reminded about dishes or laundry that I mean 641 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: plug to our episode on the Division of household labor episode. 642 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um but that's really though not as bad 643 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: as what A guy named Dan Cunningham, also interviewed for 644 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: that Wall Street Journal piece, said he's the owner of 645 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: the Michigan based man cave market dot com. He said, 646 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: quote a chick cave, that's what the rest of the 647 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: house is Oh, Dan, Dan, if you're Dan, if you're listening, No, 648 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: you're not listening. Well, there's there is no equivalent. You 649 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: can't draw a parallel between the whole house and the 650 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: man cave because in the whole house, like, that's still 651 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: real life, where chores have to happen and bills have 652 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: to be paid and things have to be vacuumed, unfolded 653 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: and whatever. It's communal spaces. Yeah, the man cave is 654 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: it's well, it's for the man and that's where things 655 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: are escaped from. That's where you can go and you 656 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: can play video games or or if you're marked Twain right, 657 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, it sounds wonderful to be able to escape. 658 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: There was one guy quoted in that study of man 659 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: caves and masculinity, and he's a stay at home dad 660 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, you know, I just I really 661 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: needed a space to escape. You know, my kids have 662 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: of the house and I just have like ent And 663 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, okay, sixty, so that means your 664 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: wife has ten. Did you save the kitchen, like, because 665 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: that's not really a lady space. I mean traditionally it 666 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: has been gendered as such, but to claim that you 667 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: get to escape in the house as your own and 668 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: the and the wife or your partner doesn't have the 669 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: same Uh, it doesn't get to enjoy a space in 670 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: the same way. You can't. You can't equate a communal 671 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: space with a man cave. Yeah, I mean, granted, my 672 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: kitchen is a relaxing space for me because I enjoy 673 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: cooking while drinking wine and listening to fresh air because 674 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: I am apparently a thirty year old in the body 675 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: of fifty year old. Um, but yeah, it's not. I 676 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: don't consider it though my my Kristen cave in my apartment, 677 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: and even the idea though of of the she shed 678 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: of this follow up question of like, well what about 679 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: women caves? Like to me, it's it's almost beside the point, 680 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: because why are we so focused now on these hyper 681 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: gendered spaces. Why can't we just say that regardless of 682 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: what kind of relationship you might be in, whether you're 683 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: living with another woman, whether you're living with another man, 684 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: whether they are kids there or not, at some point 685 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: pretty much everybody needs some space of their own, if 686 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: if it is at all possible. And this is also too, 687 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: by the way, highly socio economic privileged conversation to be 688 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: having because it's like, oh really, oh you've got extra 689 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: space and extra money to turn it into something. Well, 690 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: bully for you. Um, but I I just I don't 691 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: understand why it's so controversial for someone to just say 692 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to go in the other room. Yeah you know, 693 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: well that's why. I mean. You mentioned whether you're living 694 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,839 Speaker 1: with another woman or you're a man living with another man. 695 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm super and I know we will, and 696 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,439 Speaker 1: I'm super interested to hear from our listeners who are 697 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: living in the same sex living situation, romantic or or not. Um, 698 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: it might just be a roommate situation. I'm interested to 699 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: hear if our listeners do have these spaces, because it 700 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: doesn't like I said about my boyfriend needing his space 701 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: in the house to work and me needing my space 702 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: in the house to work. It doesn't always have to 703 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: be this hyper gendered like like you're the man and 704 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: so you get the race car room. Sometimes it's literally 705 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: just like, well, no, I work from home, or I 706 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 1: craft or I would work, and so I need a space. 707 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: So I'm interested to hear from all all different types 708 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: of people basically what those spaces look like, and honestly, 709 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 1: I think it's healthier to enjoy having those spaces. Well, 710 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: with that, let us hear from you, what do you 711 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: think about all this man cave? She shed rooms of 712 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: one's own ideas. Mom's house, stuffworks dot com is our 713 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: email address, you know, so to us at Mom's podcast 714 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of 715 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. Well, I've got 716 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: to let her hear from Kathleen with a question, what 717 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: the heck our dad bods? She writes, thank you so 718 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: much for the last two podcasts on yet another way 719 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: women's bodies are objectified. I've not yet had children, but 720 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: having the information at the back of my mind will 721 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: really come in handy if people ever inquire about when 722 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: I will get my pre pregnancy body. Back on that note, 723 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: I was taken it back this morning when my fiance 724 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: started discussing the new trend of dad bods and how 725 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: it's okay for men to be letting themselves go so 726 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: that women will feel better next to them. I was 727 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: honestly shocked about the articles I read and their justifications. 728 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: I thought that this would be a great additional piece 729 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: to the Mother's Day series about what I guess could 730 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: now be called the mom bod. If this is a 731 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: new trend now, then maybe you're too great and a 732 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: little of cool driven minds might be able to explain it. 733 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: I would also like to put in a request for 734 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: the Politics of Maternity lead. Why is the US so 735 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: far behind other developed countries? Well, Katie, yours and so 736 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: many other listeners wishes are coming true because the next 737 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 1: episode this week is on dad Bods, and believe me, 738 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: we've got lots to say, so stay tuned for that. Well, 739 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Christina about well mom bods. Honestly, 740 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: she says, I just listen to your Babyweight episode and 741 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to offer a thought on the get your 742 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: body back concept. I haven't had a baby as of yet, 743 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: that several of my friends who have had babies have 744 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: expressed the idea of wanting their body back during the 745 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: end of their terms rather than the idea of looking beautiful. 746 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: It's more of a I've had this house guest inside 747 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: of me, kicking me, eating my food, et cetera, and 748 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: I am ready to be done and just be me again. 749 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: So with that in mind, I could see the idea 750 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: of getting your body back being a reclamation of freedom 751 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: to make choices for your body that aren't constrained by 752 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: having a baby inside of it, rather than just an 753 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: oppressive enforcement of beauty norms. And speaking of oppressive enforcement 754 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: of beauty norms or lack thereof Dad Bod, I think 755 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot to be said about the virality of 756 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: it and the myriad opinions on it, and I would 757 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: love to hear you guys tackle it. She says personally, 758 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm kind of horrified by the phenomenon, but I can't 759 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: really put my finger on why. Well, so there you go, Christina, 760 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: Uh like christ and said one will be coming up 761 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: an episode becoming about dad bods next. Yeah, And I 762 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,720 Speaker 1: have a feeling that there are listeners who waited aren't 763 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast right when it came out, and 764 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: you've already got dad Bods in your queue, so binge 765 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: listen to that. And in the meantime, we want to 766 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: hear from you. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot 767 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: com is our email address, although I am thinking of 768 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: changing it to dad Bod's podcast at household works dot 769 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: com and re link to all of our social media 770 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 771 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: including this one with all of our man cave sources, 772 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 1: so you can and really should check out that man 773 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: cave and masculinity study I don't know. Over to Stuff 774 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 775 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it How staff Works 776 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: dot com