WEBVTT - Life After Surviving Stage-Four Cancer 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.996 Pushkin ring this bell three times. Well, it's told to 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:37.156 clearly say my treatment is done. This horse has run 0:00:37.196 --> 0:00:41.356 and I am on my way. Okay, here we go. 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:53.316 That's Scott, a thirty three year old software engineer, ringing 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:56.156 the bell on his last day at Dye Anderson Cancer 0:00:56.236 --> 0:01:00.476 Center in Texas. He just completed successful treatment for stage 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:03.756 four bone cancer. I first talked to Scott on an 0:01:03.756 --> 0:01:06.196 episode of A Slight Change of Plans called The Life 0:01:06.276 --> 0:01:09.716 Changing Diagnosis when he was roughly two is the way 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:13.636 through his treatment. I'm thrilled to share that today Scott's 0:01:13.636 --> 0:01:16.716 scans show no evidence of cancer and he's back at 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.876 home in California, adapting to life after treatment. When you're 0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:25.156 given the command by a very serious and well trained 0:01:25.196 --> 0:01:27.836 doctor that here's what you must do, it's obvious that 0:01:27.916 --> 0:01:31.756 you heed that call. But now now nobody's really telling 0:01:31.796 --> 0:01:35.716 you how you should be spending your time, how to 0:01:37.796 --> 0:01:43.276 relish and enjoy what you did fight for, and that 0:01:43.516 --> 0:01:49.236 is like that is a more challenging puzzle. On today's episode, 0:01:49.556 --> 0:01:52.516 living on the other side of a life changing diagnosis, 0:01:54.556 --> 0:01:57.436 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a Slight Change of Plans, 0:01:57.836 --> 0:02:00.196 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:00.476 --> 0:02:10.156 in the face of a big change. Before we dive 0:02:10.156 --> 0:02:12.756 into my recent conversation with Scott, here's a bit of 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:16.676 background on him. Scott's self proclaimed health nut who has 0:02:16.716 --> 0:02:20.236 been relentlessly trying to optimize for his future health. We're 0:02:20.276 --> 0:02:24.396 talking veganism, adding turmeric to his food, intermittent fasting, and 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:28.556 sleeping a specific number of hours every night. And so 0:02:28.956 --> 0:02:31.596 when Scott's ankle started bothering him in the fall of 0:02:31.636 --> 0:02:34.876 twenty nineteen, and he soon learned that he had stage 0:02:34.916 --> 0:02:38.876 four bone cancer, he was shocked. After all, he'd spent 0:02:38.916 --> 0:02:42.116 the majority of his adult life trying to avoid this outcome. 0:02:43.076 --> 0:02:45.516 When Scott and I first spoke, he reflected on how 0:02:45.516 --> 0:02:48.196 his self identity was changing. In the midst of treatment. 0:02:48.876 --> 0:02:51.196 He had had his right leg amputated below the knee, 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:55.076 a vertebra removed from his spine, and twelve rounds of chemotherapy. 0:02:55.876 --> 0:02:58.476 For this conversation, I asked Scott if he'd be willing 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:01.516 to pick up where we left off. The final part 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:03.876 of his treatment would involve six more rounds of chemo 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:07.156 and one additional surgery where doctors would need to operate 0:03:07.196 --> 0:03:10.596 on his other leg. Of that surgery, Scott was given 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:14.356 a choice. Option one, a surgery that would require Scott 0:03:14.396 --> 0:03:16.876 to stay off his leg for twelve months while it healed, 0:03:17.236 --> 0:03:19.996 but that could ultimately restore his leg to normal function, 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:24.156 or option two, a surgery where he could bear weight 0:03:24.196 --> 0:03:26.476 on his leg right away, but that would limit his 0:03:26.596 --> 0:03:29.396 use of that leg in the future. I wanted to 0:03:29.436 --> 0:03:32.796 know how Scott decided between these two surgeries. Given my 0:03:34.236 --> 0:03:38.716 youth in general inclination toward activity, most surgeons were thinking 0:03:38.756 --> 0:03:43.956 that the former was the better procedure. But as a 0:03:43.956 --> 0:03:46.756 part of this ensemble of things that were happening to me, 0:03:47.116 --> 0:03:51.156 I think I had to think pretty hard about whether 0:03:51.196 --> 0:03:56.596 I wanted to dig in for another twelve months or 0:03:56.756 --> 0:03:59.476 more or just move on with my life a little bit, 0:03:59.716 --> 0:04:02.836 accepting that I would have limitations for the rest of 0:04:02.876 --> 0:04:05.836 my life. And so I talked to a lot of 0:04:05.836 --> 0:04:10.116 people about it, and I think my wife and I 0:04:10.156 --> 0:04:12.636 were in agreement that I don't always have to do 0:04:12.676 --> 0:04:18.916 the hardest thing and opt for the slog that I 0:04:19.236 --> 0:04:21.316 could say, you know what, I need a break. I 0:04:21.396 --> 0:04:23.756 want this to be over sooner rather than later. And 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:29.076 even if this doesn't allow me to be a paralympian, 0:04:29.356 --> 0:04:34.716 I'm going to be able to get around. And it 0:04:34.796 --> 0:04:39.236 felt like when you're talking about this disease, it's quite 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:43.636 possible that things come back in twelve months, and if 0:04:43.756 --> 0:04:46.756 and if I wanted to enjoy the next twelve months, 0:04:46.796 --> 0:04:48.756 and it does feel kind of dark, but if if 0:04:48.756 --> 0:04:56.596 you want to think about well, time is short. Time 0:04:56.676 --> 0:04:58.356 may be short. It's short for all of us, but 0:04:58.436 --> 0:05:00.556 it may be particularly short for me. Do I want 0:05:00.556 --> 0:05:06.716 to spend the next twelve months of my life on crutches, 0:05:08.276 --> 0:05:13.196 crushing on it? Sthetic when there might not be that 0:05:13.276 --> 0:05:16.556 much more than that. Yeah, I mean your decision to 0:05:16.676 --> 0:05:21.436 go with the surgery that was easier in the shorter term, 0:05:21.556 --> 0:05:25.516 potentially more complicated and longer term, it strikes me as 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:29.916 as such a foreign decision for Scott, like, given everything 0:05:29.956 --> 0:05:33.636 I know about you, you are you are through and through, 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:36.596 like a suffer now live later kind of guy. You know, 0:05:37.556 --> 0:05:40.676 it does strike me. I mean, sometimes isolated decisions that 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:44.636 we make in life can represent more global shifts in perspective. 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:47.196 And I do wonder if this felt new to you 0:05:47.316 --> 0:05:50.996 in some way or represents something slightly bigger. Yeah, No, 0:05:51.036 --> 0:05:53.996 it's a good observation. I think I'm definitely a delayment 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:58.076 of gratification kind of guy, like I am an embodiment 0:05:58.116 --> 0:06:01.556 of the marshmallow test in that I haven't even when 0:06:01.596 --> 0:06:04.476 the researchers came back and gave you the two marshmallows 0:06:04.516 --> 0:06:06.356 to enjoy, you were like, Nope, I don't even want those. 0:06:06.756 --> 0:06:12.116 That's right, That's right. I think it did signal a 0:06:12.156 --> 0:06:16.676 little bit of self compassion, just a sense an acknowledgment 0:06:16.756 --> 0:06:19.676 of Wow, this has been a really hard year. I'd 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:23.716 like to get off the ride now. I guess tempted 0:06:23.756 --> 0:06:26.756 by an easier option. I feel skeptical of it because 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:31.956 it's a shortcut. It must be a half measure. But 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:37.196 in this case, I just felt, you know, maybe I 0:06:37.236 --> 0:06:41.676 deserve the shortcut. You know, I'm mindful of the fact 0:06:41.676 --> 0:06:46.396 that you were going through this entire experience against the 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:49.916 backdrop of a global pandemic, and I'm curious to know 0:06:49.956 --> 0:06:54.596 what it was like to navigate your treatment with this 0:06:54.636 --> 0:06:58.836 added layer of complexity. Yeah, I mean, there was something 0:06:59.596 --> 0:07:05.076 that was actually kind of fortuitous about it, because as 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:10.396 I was kind of receding from my normal life, everybody 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:14.156 else was sort of doing the same um and I 0:07:14.236 --> 0:07:17.956 was I didn't have to feel so self conscious because 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:21.996 people weren't out in the world really, like nobody could 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:28.316 see what was below the sort of the carnage below screen, 0:07:30.236 --> 0:07:34.836 which was kind of great. And so February March of 0:07:34.836 --> 0:07:39.956 twenty twenty one, vaccine started circulating, and I think there 0:07:40.036 --> 0:07:43.076 was a sense that the world was going to open 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:46.236 up and people were going to get back to real 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:50.836 life and start congregating. And I, while this was exciting 0:07:50.916 --> 0:07:57.676 to get my own inoculation, I also felt a little 0:07:57.716 --> 0:08:02.156 anxiety that, oh, you know, the gig is up, Like 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:06.796 now I'm gonna be expected to you know, present myself 0:08:07.036 --> 0:08:11.636 and out of the closet as you know, somebody who 0:08:12.436 --> 0:08:23.076 is now disabled in a way. And I think I 0:08:23.356 --> 0:08:28.436 certainly had mixed emotions about it. In some ways, the 0:08:28.476 --> 0:08:36.116 pandemic and everybody's reclusiveness was suiting my lifestyle, and I wasn't. 0:08:36.156 --> 0:08:37.996 I wasn't quite finished, and I felt like I was 0:08:38.036 --> 0:08:42.316 going to get left behind when everybody just suddenly marches 0:08:42.356 --> 0:08:48.756 into the streets and I'm sort of I wasn't quite 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:52.956 ready for that. Yeah. On the last day of your treatment, 0:08:53.356 --> 0:08:56.756 you participated in a ritual that MD Anderson has for 0:08:56.836 --> 0:09:00.596 patients where you read an inscription on the wall, you 0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:06.156 ring a bell. It's this incredibly joyous experience and you're 0:09:06.196 --> 0:09:12.036 surrounded by your caretakers. What what was that experience? Like? Yeah, 0:09:12.076 --> 0:09:16.076 I mean it was. It was It felt triumph it 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:18.396 in a way, I got to celebrate a little bit 0:09:18.516 --> 0:09:22.196 in the you know, such as it is in the 0:09:22.236 --> 0:09:25.036 cancer ward. It was a real pleasure to know that 0:09:25.076 --> 0:09:27.156 I wouldn't have to come through those doors again, at 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:33.996 least at least for a while and subject myself to 0:09:34.796 --> 0:09:38.036 that form of torture. You know. It's it's so weird 0:09:38.116 --> 0:09:45.116 that you're intensely grateful for the care and kindness, and 0:09:45.196 --> 0:09:48.596 yet at the same time you never want to see 0:09:48.636 --> 0:09:52.116 those people again because what they represent and what they 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:57.556 leave you with. So yeah, it's funny to, you know, 0:09:57.636 --> 0:09:59.716 to say say goodbye to these people that I've been 0:09:59.716 --> 0:10:05.036 seeing almost daily for months and say like, you know, 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:11.396 see you never and feel good about that and then 0:10:11.436 --> 0:10:14.156 correct me if I'm wrong. But is it a few 0:10:14.196 --> 0:10:16.236 days after the bell ringing that you get the final 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:21.636 body scan? Yeah. So in the first scan after treatment, 0:10:24.116 --> 0:10:30.596 everything looked good. I was clear of any overt signs 0:10:30.596 --> 0:10:34.836 of disease or tumor, with the one exception being a 0:10:35.076 --> 0:10:40.076 small little nodule that they saw in the lung, which 0:10:41.436 --> 0:10:44.876 they couldn't say much about except that there was something, 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:48.836 and all we could do was kind of acknowledge it 0:10:48.836 --> 0:10:52.836 and wait because it was too small to really interpret 0:10:53.436 --> 0:10:58.996 visually and not advisable to interrogate it any further. It 0:10:59.076 --> 0:11:04.116 was just well, well, we'll wait and see. And I mean, 0:11:04.236 --> 0:11:09.596 I was assured that was likely nothing. But that's kind 0:11:09.636 --> 0:11:12.836 of what I heard a year before, you know, when 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:15.676 my ankle hurt and it's probably just a sprain or 0:11:15.756 --> 0:11:24.156 probably just tendinosis or something. So obviously I'm concerned, but 0:11:25.676 --> 0:11:29.196 had to just sit with that feeling of concern and 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:34.196 understand that there's nothing to do. The the evidence that 0:11:34.236 --> 0:11:37.636 it's anything will only emerge in time if it does, 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:41.956 and that is the hallmark of cancer is that it grows, 0:11:41.996 --> 0:11:44.596 and so we have to wait to see if it grows. 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:49.836 And I think that's a hard thing to do, to 0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:51.516 just sort of shut it out of your mind, but 0:11:51.756 --> 0:12:00.076 I guess maybe, Yeah, I guess at that point I 0:12:00.156 --> 0:12:04.316 had a lot of practice disengaging from all the what 0:12:04.436 --> 0:12:09.396 if thinking, because you could really just spiral. Yeah, I mean, 0:12:09.796 --> 0:12:13.036 I think it's such an important characteristic of illness and 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:16.996 disease that we often have to redefine what it means 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:21.236 to actually cross the finish line, both physically and psychologically, right, 0:12:21.276 --> 0:12:26.236 I mean, essentially, Yeah, it's about learning to live with 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:30.516 this permanent feeling of unease, to come to terms with that. 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:34.956 And I hear you saying, you know, you had a 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:37.876 lot of practice, but I know listeners who are going 0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:40.436 through similar situations want to know, like, Scott, what is 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:43.636 your secret? How do you manage how do you manage 0:12:44.156 --> 0:12:46.556 the waiting game? Right? Like, how do you manage the 0:12:46.596 --> 0:12:53.356 anxiety that accompanies this kind of uncertainty? That's so interesting 0:12:55.716 --> 0:13:01.396 turning it over in your mind, Like unlike a rock tumbler, 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:05.756 it's not necessarily going to smooth out the gemstone. It's 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:10.116 just gonna, you know, make it spikier and scarier because 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:15.836 you simulate all the outcomes that are frankly terrifying, whereas 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:21.716 actually kind of just turning away from it with standard 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:24.836 you know, with a sane plan. It's not as though 0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:28.476 I'm going to ignore it, but we know that the 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:33.756 only thing to do is wait and see and kind 0:13:33.796 --> 0:13:36.836 of follow up when the time comes. I mean, I 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:45.956 think this whole ordeal Obviously, when trying to kind of 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:51.676 muscle through a treatment plan like this, which feels interminable, 0:13:52.596 --> 0:13:56.796 your whole psyche is organized around getting through it, getting 0:13:56.796 --> 0:13:58.636 to the other side. There's a finish line, and that's 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:01.876 what ringing the bell felt like. And now on the 0:14:01.916 --> 0:14:07.276 other side of that, you're kind of dumped into this 0:14:07.876 --> 0:14:12.796 ocean of of after time that that feels like it's well, A, 0:14:13.076 --> 0:14:17.356 it's of uncertain length, but b there's no there is 0:14:17.396 --> 0:14:19.596 no finish line now, and it's a little bit like 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:24.036 you know, graduating from school or getting your degree, and 0:14:24.076 --> 0:14:26.876 then you enter adult life and there's no there's no 0:14:27.596 --> 0:14:30.916 definitive hurdles or milestones. You kind of just have to 0:14:30.956 --> 0:14:36.636 make those up for yourself. And likewise, you know, I'm 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:41.596 fighting for survival, fighting to complete this treatment to give 0:14:41.596 --> 0:14:46.036 me a chance at at living a full life. And 0:14:46.116 --> 0:14:49.236 now that I'm in that, the question is, Okay, well, wait, 0:14:49.276 --> 0:14:51.596 what is a full life? Like it was clear that 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:54.956 a full life is something you want, and so I'm 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:58.356 very willing to fight for that, but now I have 0:14:58.396 --> 0:15:03.676 to sort of realize that life and you know, what, 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:07.196 what does make for a meaningful, full, happy life. If 0:15:07.716 --> 0:15:10.796 you no longer have this very concrete goal to save 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:14.156 your life, that is a more challenging puzzle. It's easier 0:15:14.196 --> 0:15:18.756 when you have marching orders. And I think that's why 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:25.036 there's a psychological kind of purity to war or something 0:15:25.156 --> 0:15:29.356 where where it's just so clear what you have to do, 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:39.916 whereas it's this kind of malaise of privilege, like a 0:15:40.036 --> 0:15:43.076 privilege of time and a concern that you might be 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:56.996 squandering it. We'll be right back with a slight change 0:15:56.996 --> 0:16:07.476 of plans. You through everything you had physically and emotionally 0:16:08.036 --> 0:16:11.276 into fighting for your life life, and now you're living 0:16:11.316 --> 0:16:15.356 that life, and it's up to you now to find 0:16:15.396 --> 0:16:19.956 clarity around what you want that life to look like. 0:16:20.396 --> 0:16:26.556 And it feels like an overwhelming and pressure filled process 0:16:26.676 --> 0:16:32.276 that maybe a person ought not to face in their 0:16:32.316 --> 0:16:36.676 lives because all of a sudden, the stakes feel so high, 0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:44.276 and maybe that's unnatural. Like I almost don't in this moment. 0:16:44.276 --> 0:16:46.596 I'm struggling to know whether it's like a good thing 0:16:47.436 --> 0:16:50.156 for you to feel like you have to fully reorganize 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:54.316 your life and your priorities and all that comes along 0:16:54.356 --> 0:17:01.516 with it. It's nice to feel enlightened. But I guess 0:17:01.516 --> 0:17:05.196 there's something lovely about also reclaiming a sense of normalcy 0:17:05.556 --> 0:17:09.916 and not feeling like there has to be or found shifts, 0:17:10.196 --> 0:17:13.556 you know, not feeling like you can't sweat the small 0:17:13.556 --> 0:17:16.756 stuff anymore and you can't begrudge the customer service agent 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:18.756 who's giving you a hard time, because oh my god, 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:22.836 that stuff doesn't matter, and so does it. Does it 0:17:22.836 --> 0:17:25.956 feel like a burden actually to have to to re 0:17:26.236 --> 0:17:28.516 enter life with like a new purpose and a new 0:17:28.596 --> 0:17:36.996 philosophical mindset. Yeah, that's a great question. I think certainly, certainly, 0:17:37.036 --> 0:17:41.356 I do crave a degree of normalcy, and it's like 0:17:42.196 --> 0:17:47.436 it feels like a triumph and a delight to go 0:17:47.516 --> 0:17:50.756 to bed and realize I didn't take a single medication today, 0:17:50.876 --> 0:17:53.196 Like I didn't have to swallow a single pill today, 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:57.076 or there was no point during the day in which 0:17:57.116 --> 0:18:00.156 I needed to lie down. I just sort of conducted 0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:08.436 a normal adult life, and I think that feels great. 0:18:08.836 --> 0:18:12.276 But I also do notice like there's a tinge of 0:18:12.316 --> 0:18:20.156 sadness at just resuming as if nothing happened, or like 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:25.036 noticing that I'm falling into patterns that I thought this 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:29.476 experience had helped me outgrow. One of the things that 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:31.556 I think I've gained from this experience is a little 0:18:31.556 --> 0:18:37.796 bit more flexibility in terms of my environment, what I eat. 0:18:38.236 --> 0:18:43.036 I just feel like less fussy about my physical circumstances, 0:18:43.076 --> 0:18:46.716 whether it's comfort or food or whatever. Not to say 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:50.436 I don't still seek those things out, But so when 0:18:50.476 --> 0:18:55.276 I find myself being picky or fastidious about something, I 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:59.676 notice like I can, I can chastise myself thinking, you know, 0:19:00.916 --> 0:19:03.436 have you learned? Nothing? Like, what do you you know? 0:19:03.636 --> 0:19:09.996 This is such a pre cancer pre illness thought. Yeah, 0:19:10.036 --> 0:19:13.956 it's interesting. I mean I think what I'm what I'm hearing, 0:19:15.756 --> 0:19:18.556 what I'm reflecting on in this moment, is that there 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:23.516 is a tension, right. I think it's very tempting for 0:19:23.636 --> 0:19:27.996 us to come out the other side from a very challenging, 0:19:28.036 --> 0:19:33.036 difficult episode and feel, Okay, I am, I am enlightened, 0:19:33.076 --> 0:19:34.916 I have a new perspective. Let this all not be 0:19:34.996 --> 0:19:37.356 for not you know, please let me have learned things. 0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:40.236 But then there's this pull from the other side, which 0:19:40.316 --> 0:19:44.716 is there's some value in feeling some of the more 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:49.436 familiar everyday feelings that I once felt, because it is 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:53.196 signaling to my brain that the old constellation of things 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:55.196 that I used to care about, that I used to 0:19:55.196 --> 0:19:59.716 get riled up about, whatever it is, still exists, and 0:19:59.836 --> 0:20:02.036 it's just like not knowing what the right balance is. 0:20:02.076 --> 0:20:03.556 I guess I don't know if you felt that way, 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:06.836 like you chastise yourself and yet at the same time 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:15.116 something very familiar and comforting potentially about worrying about what 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:20.716 you eat. Hmm, yeah, Like, how awesome is it that 0:20:20.756 --> 0:20:22.476 I have the luxury of worrying about what I'm eating 0:20:22.556 --> 0:20:26.276 right now? That's awesome that my brain has even the 0:20:26.276 --> 0:20:30.276 bandwidth to think about that, you know. Yet all said, 0:20:30.356 --> 0:20:32.436 I mean, it feels like getting my old self back 0:20:32.476 --> 0:20:35.396 in a way. Um, But then I think, oh, well, mate, 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:37.956 it was my old self that great. My old self 0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:40.676 was the person who got cancer. So what were my 0:20:40.716 --> 0:20:45.676 decisions all wrong? Or was it, you know, some karmic 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:51.276 retribution for for something. So it's like there's some aversion 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:53.396 I have to my old self because my old self 0:20:53.516 --> 0:20:58.476 was some was something that got me in the place 0:20:58.476 --> 0:21:02.716 of getting bone cancer, which I know feels like somewhat perverted. 0:21:03.916 --> 0:21:05.796 When I was a senior in high school and got 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:08.236 into Harvard, it was like validated everything I had done 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:11.876 up to that point is absurd. But that's that's a mindset. 0:21:12.116 --> 0:21:18.316 And by the same token, getting diagnosed with cancer calls 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:23.916 into question anything that's happened before. Was I doing something wrong, 0:21:24.716 --> 0:21:30.196 whether it's physically, nutritionally, spiritually, whatever, And so I do 0:21:30.276 --> 0:21:32.796 feel like at some distance from my old self because 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:37.596 that old self kind of faced judgment. This, This all 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:40.676 feels like weirdly spiritual and religious. And I don't I 0:21:40.716 --> 0:21:47.396 don't mean it. I'm implying no theology here. I'm just 0:21:47.916 --> 0:21:51.476 it's just I'm just noticing that my brain likes narratives. 0:21:52.476 --> 0:21:56.636 But if you think that, well, do the ends justify 0:21:56.716 --> 0:22:01.756 the means in some way? Or if I'm now more 0:22:03.156 --> 0:22:08.996 mature or have my personality has been smoothed out by 0:22:09.116 --> 0:22:12.716 this whole experience. This is just what I needed, was 0:22:12.716 --> 0:22:16.996 a good ass kicking in some way. Um, and I 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:19.916 certainly got that. I'm listening, and I guess I'm just 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:27.996 I'm lightly stunned by the agency you feel old Scott 0:22:28.076 --> 0:22:31.876 played in quote getting cancer, Like, why is old Scott 0:22:31.916 --> 0:22:39.116 carrying any moral responsibility for a physical outcome that old 0:22:39.156 --> 0:22:41.796 Scott didn't? I mean, how could that? How does that 0:22:41.836 --> 0:22:45.236 possibly work out logically? I don't do that even I 0:22:45.236 --> 0:22:48.236 don't think. I don't think it's rational, but it's feels 0:22:48.316 --> 0:22:50.756 feel it right. It feels like the other side of 0:22:50.756 --> 0:22:55.596 the coin of agency, to use your word, which is 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:03.636 that if if I feel like I can move the 0:23:03.676 --> 0:23:08.196 needle positively, then it seems like maybe I somehow move 0:23:08.236 --> 0:23:14.036 the needle net right if if it's within your power 0:23:14.076 --> 0:23:18.676 to but some things aren't within your power, you might 0:23:18.756 --> 0:23:24.436 not might biologically just have had like no defense against 0:23:24.516 --> 0:23:28.156 this cancer. There's no counterfactual world in which you defeat 0:23:28.196 --> 0:23:31.396 the cancer through any sort of intervention. You accept that 0:23:31.476 --> 0:23:35.476 as being at least one reality, right, Oh, I rationally, 0:23:35.516 --> 0:23:38.876 I completely accept that, even hearing you say it. It's therapeutic. 0:23:39.116 --> 0:23:41.876 And the reason I'm so interested in this, Scott is 0:23:41.916 --> 0:23:47.116 because that self blame is our way I think of 0:23:47.236 --> 0:23:51.076 subconsciously exerting control. It's like we need to feel like 0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:53.316 our past selves had control and our current day selves 0:23:53.316 --> 0:23:58.756 had control. And it is an interesting quirk of human 0:23:58.836 --> 0:24:03.196 nature to play this game with ourselves, you know. And 0:24:03.316 --> 0:24:05.436 I do wonder whether when you come out the other 0:24:05.476 --> 0:24:09.716 side of treatment successfully, it can seduce you back into 0:24:09.756 --> 0:24:11.956 that older mindset of thinking we are in fact in 0:24:11.996 --> 0:24:16.756 control of our outcomes because you saw some version of 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:21.876 an input output model play out in your favor. Right, yeah, 0:24:22.156 --> 0:24:24.956 I love everything you just said. I think it definitely 0:24:26.356 --> 0:24:29.516 is part of this illusion of control, which is somehow 0:24:29.636 --> 0:24:39.916 comforting and definitely in the throes of treatment, I am 0:24:39.956 --> 0:24:45.236 being kind of passed around from clinic to clinic, doctor 0:24:45.276 --> 0:24:48.036 to doctor, and I don't feel like I have much agency, 0:24:48.196 --> 0:24:53.516 and so and that was that's a little freeing. I 0:24:53.556 --> 0:24:57.436 guess now as I regain my own agency and contemplate 0:24:58.156 --> 0:25:01.756 how I want to direct that agency, I do feel 0:25:01.796 --> 0:25:05.756 more more prone to that narrative of control. But right, so, 0:25:06.076 --> 0:25:08.716 either it feels like you should own the good and 0:25:08.716 --> 0:25:12.596 the bad, and if you're entitling yourself to own the good, 0:25:12.876 --> 0:25:17.516 then you should take responsibility for the bad. However, the 0:25:17.556 --> 0:25:20.836 truth is probably more that you shouldn't take much ownership 0:25:20.836 --> 0:25:27.236 of anything, the bad or the good. But it feels better. Yeah, yeah, Okay, 0:25:27.276 --> 0:25:30.516 So I want to dig in a little bit on 0:25:30.516 --> 0:25:34.756 on this topic of identity because one of the most 0:25:34.756 --> 0:25:37.436 memorable parts of our first conversation is when we talked 0:25:37.436 --> 0:25:40.236 about your changing relationship with your identity. You said that 0:25:40.276 --> 0:25:42.556 the things that you felt had to find you like 0:25:42.636 --> 0:25:47.676 your physical fitness were perhaps more quote negotiable than you thought, 0:25:48.396 --> 0:25:51.636 and that you said something so evocative like, you know, 0:25:51.716 --> 0:25:55.836 even though I can't do handstand, I'm still me. And 0:25:56.156 --> 0:26:00.196 I want to know what's your current understanding of what 0:26:00.316 --> 0:26:04.476 makes you you? What are those defining traits? Yeah, yeah, 0:26:04.476 --> 0:26:11.156 what makes me me? Every report that I can do 0:26:11.196 --> 0:26:13.916 a nice hand stand again is at the opposite of 0:26:13.956 --> 0:26:22.996 the point. Um that's awesome, though, yeah, um yeah, maybe 0:26:22.996 --> 0:26:24.996 I've become a little less me, which might be for 0:26:25.076 --> 0:26:29.996 the better. With this weird experience where we went up 0:26:29.996 --> 0:26:32.076 to the Russian River a group of friends, and we 0:26:32.076 --> 0:26:35.156 stayed in a house and it was supposed to be 0:26:35.196 --> 0:26:41.716 this sort of quiet get away, and it turned out 0:26:41.796 --> 0:26:47.756 that in the open meadow across the street that weekend 0:26:48.156 --> 0:26:52.876 was scheduled a rodeo. The rodeo was in town, and 0:26:52.956 --> 0:26:55.916 like the front yard was essentially a parking lot for 0:26:55.956 --> 0:26:59.156 this rodeo, and I think there were there were sort 0:26:59.196 --> 0:27:03.356 of two camps in responding to this. Half of the 0:27:03.356 --> 0:27:11.276 folks were annoyed that it was disrupting the intended vibe. 0:27:12.036 --> 0:27:17.116 And I think two years ago I certainly would have 0:27:17.156 --> 0:27:26.356 been in that camp, just outraged and indignant and feeling 0:27:26.916 --> 0:27:34.236 sort of this urban smugness at the rodeo. But for 0:27:34.276 --> 0:27:39.956 some reason, I found myself I was viewing it like 0:27:39.996 --> 0:27:45.196 a as if I was a sociologist, like I was 0:27:45.316 --> 0:27:49.876 curious about, I guess, the treatment of animals. Notwithstanding, I 0:27:49.996 --> 0:27:54.876 was interested in the cultural novelty of it and kind 0:27:54.876 --> 0:27:59.356 of wanted to explore it and understand it more rather 0:27:59.436 --> 0:28:03.636 than just feeling a need to flee. And I do 0:28:04.036 --> 0:28:06.556 think that was a that's a shift in my personality 0:28:06.596 --> 0:28:08.796 that I'm grateful for. I think your life is just 0:28:08.836 --> 0:28:13.276 easy when you're less pissed off by stuff. It's interesting. 0:28:13.316 --> 0:28:16.436 I mean, you said you're you're less pissed off right 0:28:16.436 --> 0:28:19.116 in the face of things you would have coded as 0:28:19.156 --> 0:28:22.436 disturbances before, right, But it seems like there's more there. 0:28:22.876 --> 0:28:25.316 It's not simply being less pissed off. It seems like 0:28:25.676 --> 0:28:33.636 there's some exploratory side of your personality that's well. Your 0:28:33.636 --> 0:28:35.676 show is called a slight change of plans, you know, 0:28:35.756 --> 0:28:37.876 sometimes you get curveballs, and I was just sort of 0:28:37.916 --> 0:28:46.116 curious about what was in store, and it's like, yeah, 0:28:46.156 --> 0:28:48.356 who's to say that my plans would have gone out 0:28:48.396 --> 0:28:50.996 without a hitch anyway, Right, I've had this experience in 0:28:51.036 --> 0:28:54.276 the past where things got off track despite my best intentions, 0:28:54.276 --> 0:28:57.596 and so maybe it matters less that things are executing 0:28:57.636 --> 0:29:01.836 according to plan. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's so 0:29:01.876 --> 0:29:05.676 fascinating what you've just said, because you can easily imagine. 0:29:05.716 --> 0:29:07.796 I mean, I think that the common narrative would be, 0:29:08.756 --> 0:29:14.836 after are a wildly unexpected stage four cancer diagnosis, we 0:29:15.076 --> 0:29:19.436 cower in the face of slight changes of plan. Right, 0:29:19.516 --> 0:29:26.636 we were fearful of unexpected, unexplored terrain because you know what, 0:29:26.716 --> 0:29:28.756 last time we went there, we didn't like it. But 0:29:28.836 --> 0:29:32.716 what you're saying makes me think from a totally different perspective, 0:29:32.756 --> 0:29:38.396 which is you're coming at this from having so carefully 0:29:38.476 --> 0:29:44.036 crafted your plans and and like you said, despite your 0:29:44.036 --> 0:29:47.796