WEBVTT - Killing Ray [9] 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.560 Welcome to the MLK Tapes, a production of I Heart 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.400 Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:10.559 this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.280 individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent those 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.759 of I Heart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. Listener 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:25.960 discretion is advised. Mr Larson, Yes, Sir William Pepper, I'm 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.200 calling you from good morning to you. Good morning. How 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.880 are you? You're about twenty minutes We're going to Corrida again? 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.400 Sorry I am, yes, sir. I got a couple of 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:39.400 hearings over there this morning. Uh. I have a client 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:45.600 who has imparted some information to me and he assures 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.040 me that he can back up everything. He has told 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.559 me that quite frankly, could prove that James are already 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.760 did not shoot Dr King, and I think could probably 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:06.040 prove who actually did it. Yeah. I called the Union Hall. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.200 I said it's a matter of life and death. I said, 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.880 I think these people are planning to kill Dr King. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.520 The authorities were parade. Oh, we found a gun that 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.600 James ol Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Dr King. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:24.320 Except it wasn't the gun that killed Dr King. James 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:30.640 Lvey was upon for the official story from My Heart 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.640 Radio intended for TV. The plan was to get King 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.319 to the city because they wanted it handled in memphisfore 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.200 Dead and in cat Hamon. And I've lived with it 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.959 so long, my sion, and they scared for me. The 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.200 Lord told me to not the word. I've been wanting 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.840 to tell it all my life. I'm Bill Claiburg, and 0:01:52.920 --> 0:02:02.600 this is d MLK Tapes. I'm sitting with Bill Pepper 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.960 in his cluttered study, listening to a phone conversation that 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.880 Bill had recorded in I found the unlabeled cassette in 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.959 a box with others that Bill had stashed at the 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:17.200 King Center in Atlanta, a hundred tapes, ninety minutes each. 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.360 I was doing triage. I was about to set this 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.200 tape aside because it was just ordinary phone calls. But 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.480 then some lawyer comes on and tells Bill that he 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.680 is a client who, thirty years after the fact, can 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.760 prove that James Earl Ray did not shoot Martin Luther King, 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.520 the very thing that Pepper had been trying to prove 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.680 for twenty years. That, of course, it's very exciting. Uh, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.720 it's not in the best of hell. And he had 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.520 quite frankly believed that the King family deserves to know 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.520 what actually happened. Right. Ah, he has known that great 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.600 for many years. Apparently they at one time we're imprisoned 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:01.520 together in Southeast Missouri when they were both young. Uh. 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:03.839 And I'll be quite honest with you, and you could 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.920 care less about James all right. You know he thanks 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.359 the Kings deserved to know what happened, and that's why 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.119 he has come forward. If you're Bill Pepper, you get 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.080 phone calls like this every once in a while. People 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.040 who know things reach out often as they approached the 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.120 end of their lives. I was fascinated by what I 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.880 heard on this tape, and Bill had agreed to sit 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.480 and listen to it with me. So that's what we're 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.959 doing in a study. And at times you can hear 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:37.760 the Harlem Street noise from below. So Bill, you're living 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:39.920 in England and you get a call from this guy, 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:45.400 attorney Larson, and you call him back and he spins 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.880 you this tale. Um, what do you think about that? 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.720 What was your initial reaction? Well, my initial reaction was 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:58.000 of interest. I had an open mind with respect to 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.400 witnesses potential with as is coming forward, and here was 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.320 a guy who was represented and represented himself as to 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.880 be a lawyer. Seemed to be a lawyer. So I 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:13.120 was interested in, uh opening that door and having a conversation. 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.680 Why would Bill Pepper say that this man on the 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.200 phone represented himself to be a lawyer. It's an odd 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.000 way to put it. The answer is because over the 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.000 years Pepper has been approached by a few people who 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.960 are not who they said they were, or otherwise offered 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.880 false information. Bill did agree that this Mr. Larson seemed 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.160 on the up and up, but there was still the 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.120 matter of the client. Was he for real? Mr? Larson 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.560 said he was. He worked for the federal government for 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:48.039 many years. He did considerable undercover work, a lot of 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.200 it through my understanding the U. S. Attorney's office in 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:58.480 County Ryan. And have you known this client, Mr Larson 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.960 for quite a period of time. I have known him 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.000 for probably seven or eight years. He has several business 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.479 operations in Tennessee and I have done work for them. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.920 And quite honestly, it was stunned when he called and 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.719 said I need a visit with you. I had no 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.960 idea that he had the involvement that he did. I 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.920 see and have you found it to be a reliable person. 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.359 If he were to tell me that it was going 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.520 to snow on the fourth day, I would probably laugh 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:34.880 that I'd get a cop just in case. I'm Lustralian, 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.440 for instance. Now, because he said that he has ever 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:43.400 met me at any time, Telser, he did testify several 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:48.400 years ago an executive session of the Subcommittee on as 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:53.440 the Congressional Committee. Yes, yesterday he testified in executive session. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.360 Apparently he and Mr Stokes did not hit it off immediately. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.360 And I'm sure that will come as no great shot you. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.840 Attorney Larson has just dropped a bomb. He said his 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.240 client had been called to testify before the House Up 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.839 Committee on Assassinations a full twenty years earlier. Not just 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.640 anybody gets called before the h s c A. An 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.919 executive session was reserved for people who had things to 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.560 say that would be kept secret for fifty years. So 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:28.080 who was this guy? Bill Pepper didn't know at this point. 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.360 He didn't know the guy's name. Back to the phone call. 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.560 He's a he's a white with the Southerner, Yes, sir, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.960 he is from southeast Missouri. Now live isn't another state 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.320 that I am in contact? With him. How do you 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.279 suggest we've received as Larson. I mean, I certainly would 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:50.080 like in your presence to um to meet with your client. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.160 Does he have any any concern about his own situation 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.000 in terms of prosecution or anything of that sort, But 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:03.880 not not a whole bun, because basically his knowledge came 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.400 after the fact. I mean, he is not extraordinarily concerned 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.480 about it, although he is well aware that it's possible 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.240 because of all the other things that had transpired in 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:22.240 this case. Uh, what he had suggested to me, and 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.000 I'll throw this out in you, he had suggested, perhaps 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.440 if there were some injuries in talking with him, everyone 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.880 meeting in Atlanta, perhaps at the Key Museum, and he 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:40.200 could then basically explained to the sign is what Dexter gets. Okay, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.920 that's that's a that's the good starting point suggestion. I 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.320 think the center is probably too my profile, and I 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.320 think but I think the idea of having Dexter there 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.520 is a very good one. I'd very much like to 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.200 have you president, if that's if that's if you don't 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.080 object to it, and if that's uh, you know, I 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.440 think I think my client would prefer that also, is 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.920 it is we we meet internally outside of Tennessee. I mean, 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.400 would would Nashville be a possibility for UM? I think 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.720 Nashville would be a possibility. Yeah. Would he mind on 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.800 recording this session? I don't believe. So I'll clarify that 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.240 with him that I certainly would expect you to do that. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.280 Quite frankly, we would like to do that. We'll give 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.600 you a company his information as arson such that it 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:28.400 could be um it could be produced in court if 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.400 he were willing to do that, or is it a 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.920 portion of it would be admissible? There would be some 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:40.240 that I think would be perhaps hearsay, you know. But 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:46.440 the circumstances I found to be somewhat chilling. Ye, And 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.880 what what troubled me, especially as I grew up down 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.640 in Memphis, right and I was in high school where 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.520 the murder occurred. Right now, I remember the cast of 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.679 characters and all of a sudden names were coming back, right. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.920 So I based on that, I think that there's there's 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.840 something there. Listen. I do thank you very much, UM, 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.160 and please tell your client I'm I'm very grateful to 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.760 him at his late point in his life. We're coming 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.200 forward because he wish that his name not be known 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.679 to me or Dexter prior to any meeting that we uh, yes, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.880 or he would prefer not to have that done just yet. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:32.959 That's one that's fairly fine. And how your telephone lines secure? Yes, sir, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.280 far as I know I have, well, I have your number. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.160 You don't even need to lose that. You could just 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.400 say it's Rusty calling, okay, And but I will come 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:47.000 back to you fairly quickly, and I look forward to 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.480 meeting you and your client, and I'm sure Dexter will 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.960 as well. All right, sir, I thank you very much, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.240 my pleasure, very forward to meeting you, and thank you, yes, sir. 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.840 When we were listening to this tape, neither Bill Pepper 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.120 nor I knew if the lawyer or his client were 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.959 still alive. And when Bill hung up the phone on 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.520 the original call, he didn't even know the name of 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.000 the guy, the one with this new information. But we 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:18.760 know it now. His name was Green, Jim Green. According 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.120 to his story, Green had led a life of crime 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.480 when he was young and spent time in prison more 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.760 than once. Then he served some years with law enforcement, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.960 after which he opened a couple of topless bars. But 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.160 he was just twenty one when He says he was 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.679 picked or more or less told to kill James L. Ray. 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.760 According to Green, whose voice we will hear right now, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.080 he didn't know that doctor King was to be murdered 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:50.400 the people and took the money. That may have been 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.400 difficult to hear, as the recording of this phone conversation 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.800 between Jim Green and Bill Pepper is of poor quality. 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.319 Jim Green said, I've been told that he, referring to 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.439 James Earl Ray, double cross some people and took their money. 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.280 Now here's the rest of that statement from the Coalst 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.200 transcript as read by a voice actor. They knew that 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.319 Ray was going to perform a robbery in Memphis. We 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.840 were going to kill him after the robbery. We don't 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.439 even know King is in town as far as we're concerned. 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.440 We're told that when he turns the corner that if 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.480 the policeman don't get him, I get him. I was 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.360 the backup shooter and the cop was late, and then 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.000 Ray turned and walked the other way where I couldn't 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:35.440 get him. Jim Green died about ten years ago, but 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.800 as you just heard, we have a tape of him 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.600 talking to Bill Pepper, and we will play that tape 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.280 in a bit. But Green's lawyer, Rusty Larson, the man 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.040 you heard on the phone with Bill, is very much 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:51.479 alive and still practicing law in Jackson, Tennessee. We contacted 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.360 Larson and asked if he would tell us what he 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.960 knew of Jim Green and the plan to murder Ray. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:19.800 We'll hear from Larson after the break. Attorney Larson, Yes, sir, 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.720 Bill Claibor here, Yes, sir. How are you Bill? Good? Good? 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:28.120 How you doing? I'm doing good? Did did our engineer arrive? 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.959 He has gotten here and he has more equipment than 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.080 you say, Grace over. I'm at home in upstate New York. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.800 An attorney Russell Larson, better known as Rusty Larson, is 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.400 sitting in his law office in Jackson, Tennessee, where he 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.120 has practiced law for forty years. Larson grew up in 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.000 South Memphis in an area called fittingly white Haven, and 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.240 he was a junior in high school when King was shot. 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.679 I asked him if he was aware of the desperate, 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.600 deepening divide in his city. Of course, I was aware 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.840 of the sanitation strike because that had gone on for 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.520 quite a while. My dad, being in the restaurant business, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.120 was adversely affected by that. But you know, it was 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:18.200 just business as usual basically in my world. But business 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.320 as usual was about to change in Memphis when Dr 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.719 King was shot. The National Guard troops came in and 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.680 downtown Memphis got shut down, and he got a little 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.319 scary at that point, the first time I had ever 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:39.760 been around or have much exposure to armed military people 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.559 with real life guns. Kind of a coming of age time. 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.640 Larson went to college and got his law degree at 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.000 Memphis State. Upon graduation, he landed a job with an 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.839 appellate judge in Jackson, just an hour and a half 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.840 of the road from Memphis. A few years later, he 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.480 went out on his own as a criminal defense attorney, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.280 which is the work he has done it for since. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.400 I asked Larson how this led to Jim Green. Mr 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:14.440 Green opened a adult entertainment establishment here called the Doll House, 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.480 and needless to say, when the topless bar came to 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.760 town with scantily clad women dancing, it upset a lot 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:30.520 of folks and the police department tried to shut them down. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:37.720 I was hired by Jim Green two represent them, and 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.520 we danced off to Federal Court and all of a 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:46.040 sudden we had a federal judge who understood that dancing 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.160 was really speech and it was protected by the Constitution. 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.080 And so that's how I got involved with Jim and 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.520 some of his operations. He often would come to town 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.240 and would dropped in the office and we would talk 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.560 for hours of a time, because Jim had plenty of 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:11.360 stories to tell, what kind of stories, scary ones about 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.120 his life of crime and then his life in law enforcement, 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.200 things that Green had seen or done, and enough that 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.280 Green himself began to write them down for a book 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.840 he hoped to publish. The unfinished manuscript was titled Blood 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.600 and Dishonor, and it was his account of his life 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.160 on both sides of the law and his role in 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.480 the murder of Martin Luther King. The book had been 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.000 kept in a safe by Attorney Larson, who was kind 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.320 enough to copy its pages and send them to me 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.720 with an associate reading for us. The book begins this way. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.840 I was raised in Carruthersville, Missouri, on the west bank 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.280 of the Mississippi. The town had bars, whorehouses, drugs, gambling, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.120 and about one killing a week. If you wanted anything, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.000 all you had to do was ask. But even in 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.480 a town like that. People live normal lives. I played 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.560 baseball and football. You might ask, how could I be 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.800 that normal and end up doing all the things I did. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.000 It was easy look at what was around me. As 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.160 he tells it, Jim Green was fourteen the first time 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.000 he was put in jail. He had driven someone's truck 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.120 from Tennessee to Florida to see a girl. When the 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.520 cops pulled him over, they found a kid without a license. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.480 While they were still in high school, Jim and his 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.720 friend Butch started running moonshine from Missouri into Tennessee and Alabama. 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.080 They made good money. They also got busted a bunch 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:34.760 of times. According to Attorney Larson, Jim was very young 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.720 when when all this was taking place. I know that 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:43.720 his career started when he was was pretty young, maybe 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.840 even as a juvenile, and then he graduated to adult facilities. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.720 He had spent some time behind bars, and he knew 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:59.040 the routines, and his personality was such that he had 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:04.800 a great way of asking questions and getting people to 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:10.040 talk to him. Inside the walls, you had punks, snitches, 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.160 the ones who ran the drugs, the money, and finally 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.280 the guards that thought they were cons This is where 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.960 my education really began, or should I say where I 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.240 found out what the world was really made of. Prison 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.760 is a world with rules of its own. You either 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.320 abide by the con rules or die. That's how simple 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.959 it is. One of the people Green met in prison 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.120 was a fellow named James Earle Ray. Green remembers him 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.679 as a quiet guy who worked in the kitchen. That 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.520 was about it. They weren't friends or anything, but Green 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.800 thinks that is Knowing Ray, however, casually, was a reason 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.240 he was picked for the job of killing him, because 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.160 Green knew what Ray looked like. I asked Lawson how 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.080 we found out about Green's involvement in the killing of King. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.639 I got the impression that Jim just needed to talk 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:02.280 to somebody who didn't know a lot of the people 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.080 that Jim knew. You know, sometimes you just need to 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.080 talk to somebody and and if it's somebody that has 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:16.120 a confidentiality situation, that your semi safe and talking and 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.280 getting things off your chest. And I got the impression 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.000 that there were a lot of ghosts that Jim was 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:27.119 dealing with. When you reached out to Larson, Green was 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.200 out of place in his life where he no longer 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.560 wanted to carry his and everybody else's secrets about the 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.679 murder of Dr. King, and both he and Attorney Larson 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.760 thought that Bill Pepper was the person to talk to, 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.080 so they each talked to Pepper on the phone and 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.640 then made plans to meet with him and Dexter King 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:48.800 in Memphis. Can you remember anything of what was said 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:55.040 when Jim met Dexter King. Nothing as far as great substance. 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:04.119 Mainly it was Dexter King trying to ascertain who was involved, 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.840 what was it all about. Although Larson was representing Green 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.800 and had grown up in Memphis, he really wasn't up 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.240 on the complexities of the murder of Martin Luther King. 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.720 So Larson was hearing a lot of stuff he hadn't 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:22.040 heard before. It really kind of opened my eyes that 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.399 there was more of a conspiracy than I thought there was. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:32.480 I think my idea probably developed fairly late in the game. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.680 The more I was involved in criminal defense work and 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.600 got to know some of the cast of characters in 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.479 Memphis and the Memphis Police Department, I got the feeling 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.159 that there were some what we call them suits, the 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:59.040 investigators who were involved in either the timing, the surveillance, 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:05.520 maybe the planning. I had prepped for my interview with 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.280 Rusty Larson by reading Jim Green's manuscript Blood and Dishonor, 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.600 And since Green was no longer alive, I thought Larson 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:14.679 and I might enter his story by way of the 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.800 book and talk about the intrigue or the characters like 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.760 Buster or j Bird, for whom crime was simply a 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.880 way of life. I had some paragraphs that I intended 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.600 to read to Larsen as springboards into Jim Green's story. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.000 There was one character in particular who had a powerful 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.760 position in the Missouri crime mosaic. Yet to Jim Green, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.359 he seemed different from the others. His name was Paul, 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.239 and one evening, Jim and Paul were alone together at 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.120 the back of the pool hall. This is how Green 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.600 describes the situation in his book. Paul reached inside his 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.520 jacket and pulled out what looked like a wallet. He 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.560 flipped it open, and all I could see were the 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:58.000 letters FBI. Paul smiled at me and said, don't worry. 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.560 I'm your friend, not your enemy. He said. Everybody had 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.560 to make a little money, even cops. I knew we 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.959 had worked with the local cops before, but I had 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.080 never known of the FEDS being crooked. When I left, 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.040 I drove straight back to Carruthersville. I told j Bird 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.399 what had happened, and he started laughing and said, I 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.960 bet you shape your pants. I asked him what he 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.440 would do if he saw that kind of badge. Jay 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.199 Bird said not to worry, because he needed us and 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.920 we needed him, and that I was never to say 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.520 anything about his badge where we would all end up 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.320 being dead. I was eager to talk to Attorney Larson 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.879 about this guy Paul and Paul's boss, who he called Rochi. 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.399 I thought the book would be our springboard, but I 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.000 would be disappointed because although Larson had read the manuscript, 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.960 it had been over twenty years ago and little of 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.919 it was still in his head. But there remains something 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.920 important that I wanted from Larson, because if Jim Green's 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.520 story is true, it points straight back to those who 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.959 planned the murder of Dr. King. And in our phone conversation, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.800 I had found Rusty Larson to be smart, funny, and perceptive, 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.720 and I wanted to apply those qualities to the question 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.199 at hand. What did he think of Jim Green? Was 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:12.960 Green the sort of man who would have gone to 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.960 enormous trouble to invent an elaborate, self incriminating story. Why 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:22.000 would he want to for attention? Larson didn't think so. 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:28.760 He was not the type that needed the attention. He 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:34.119 made a good bit of money in his various topless 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:39.760 operations and kind of enjoyed that type of life. So 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.760 I never had the impression that he would have to 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:50.240 make up some story just too elevate himself and appear 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:55.720 to be something that he wasn't. If anything, Jim just 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.439 really didn't give a flip. He was who he was 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.240 and if you like him, great, and if you don't 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.760 like him, go screw yourself. Yeah, it was real simple 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:11.280 with him. How simple. We'll let Jim Green tell you himself. 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:32.679 I would run we come. This is Jim Green talking 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:36.680 on the phone in late to Bill Pepper in London. Again, 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:39.760 because of the tape's quality, this statement will be read 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.680 by a voice actor. I was running moonshine and stolen 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.480 cars with the mob out of St. Louis. I was 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.480 working for Buster Workman Jim Michaels and then boys out 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.760 of Gaslight. We ran money from the vending machine companies 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.040 back and forth. Because my cousin was an owner of 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:58.080 one of the companies, and I got tied in through them, 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.680 and that's how I met the agent. I was told 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:02.800 to go to this place in St. Louis with Butch 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:06.520 and meet this guy. He told me we work hand 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.480 in hand. They help us, we help them. Back in 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:14.399 the sixties, that was the way of life. The agent 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.480 Jim Green speaks about is a guy named Paul, who 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.280 had FBI identification. But we're closely with organized crime in 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:25.159 the southern US. They help us, we help them, is 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:28.720 what he was told. From this point forward, we're going 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.760 to forego the voice actor and play the original tape. 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.639 We highly recommend wearing headphones. While some of it may 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:38.520 be difficult to hear, we feel it's important that you 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:43.120 hear Jim Green make the statements himself. According to Green, 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:45.399 Paul was the one who recruited him for the upcoming 0:24:45.480 --> 0:25:01.879 job in Memphis. Our crowd they robbery as members. We 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.639 were looking. He had to the robbery. This is what 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:08.439 we're doing. That's what you were trying. And I'm told 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.560 that the mender of polices go back and up. We 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:15.760 only no key and then right as far as we're concerned, right, 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:21.120 we're told that when Ray turned this corner, then it's 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:25.640 the police, and don't get him when he turns upoint 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:29.159 when he draw his driving. So when he's walking, I 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:31.680 was a bag of pater in case and the cop 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:34.879 was k and then Ray turned and walked the other 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.640 way where I couldn't get what I would have done 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:39.959 it or night, I don't know. I say the end. 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.680 As a kid, I would have been to see. There's 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:47.639 one other thing my lower my son told me. I 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.800 was like, right, he didn't he didn't mention that that. 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:53.919 I don't know when Ray will remember me, because I 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:56.960