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Speaker 1: Hey, Doc, I've been thinking I need a new blood. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the animal blood it's not working. Yeah, I tried it.

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Speaker 1: It made me crash my car, made me feel you know,

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Speaker 1: about three feet thick. Well what about true blood? Just

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Speaker 1: hit the market? Headache, dry mouth, made my eyes too red. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's currently a clinical trial for something called day Breaker.

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Speaker 1: I'll stop you right there, Doc, I got some on

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Speaker 1: the black market. Made me vomit and explode. But what

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Speaker 1: exactly are you looking for? Well, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to go crazy with hunger. I don't want my

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Speaker 1: things too long. I also don't want it to spill

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Speaker 1: or come in a pill. Now, now you're rhyming again.

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Speaker 1: Have you been taking your syntho gore because that's one

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Speaker 1: of the withdrawal symptoms. I'm all out, Doc, and I

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Speaker 1: don't imagine you have anything else around here on tap,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. And

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Speaker 1: here we are covered in blood. That's right. Last year

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Speaker 1: we put out a Halloween episode titled I Drink Your

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Speaker 1: Blood Type, all about blood types. That you know humans have,

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Speaker 1: but with a vampire flavoring. I think we did a

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Speaker 1: fun skit at the beginning of that one. Um we

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Speaker 1: briefly mentioned synthetic blood in vampire fiction. In that one,

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Speaker 1: I remember we did reference true blood as well as

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Speaker 1: a nineteen thirty nine film titled The Return of Doctor X,

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Speaker 1: which I haven't seen yet. I still haven't seen this one,

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Speaker 1: but it stars Humphrey Bogart as an evil doctor with

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Speaker 1: this kind of like skunk streak in his hair and

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Speaker 1: round glasses who's been brought back to life with synthetic blood.

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Speaker 1: The hair suggests elsa Anchester like in bright A Frankenstein.

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Speaker 1: It does. Yeah, you definitely can see the Frenstein d

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Speaker 1: NA um maybe even the lazy Frankenstein DNA in this

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Speaker 1: costume design. Now, in that episode, like you said, we

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Speaker 1: mainly ended up talking about natural uh properties of blood types,

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Speaker 1: what evolutionary pressures drove the development of different blood types,

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Speaker 1: how that functions in medicine, and then I think we

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Speaker 1: also talked about some pseudo scientific beliefs about blood types

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Speaker 1: and personality and psychology. But I think we only briefly

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Speaker 1: mentioned the possibility of synthetic blood or using something other

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Speaker 1: than human blood in your veins. Yeah, that's right, we did.

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Speaker 1: We didn't get into the topic all that much, and

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Speaker 1: subsequently we had some listeners suggested for October twenty fair.

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Speaker 1: So here we are now, first and foremost, we should

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Speaker 1: really establish what blood literally is and maybe a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what it metaphorically is. So blood is technically

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Speaker 1: both a fluid and a tissue, since it's made out

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Speaker 1: of similar specialized cells bended in a liquid matrix of plasma.

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Speaker 1: It carries oxygen and nutrients to the cells and carries

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Speaker 1: off carbon dioxide and other waste products. The heart pumps

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Speaker 1: it through the body, but it's also part of the

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Speaker 1: larger circulatory system, so organs like the kidney and the

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Speaker 1: lung are also important to blood. And of course, if

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Speaker 1: we lose enough blood in a short enough period of time,

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Speaker 1: we die, as we all know. Yes, uh, And it's

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Speaker 1: it's amazing to stop and think how blood is not

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Speaker 1: just in your body, but constantly moving throughout it, you know,

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Speaker 1: like while you're alive, it never stops. This is one

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Speaker 1: of those ideas that sometimes makes me feel the you know,

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Speaker 1: the flame run under my skin. It's it's just a

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Speaker 1: little too creepy thinking about how even when I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: perfectly still and perfectly at rest, the blood is still going.

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Speaker 1: It's rushing through every inch of me. And that's true

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Speaker 1: for all of us, of course, And so one thing

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Speaker 1: I was wondering, actually is how long does it take

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Speaker 1: for each red blood cell to circulate all the way

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Speaker 1: through your body and make it back to the heart. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I was reading an interesting Q and A by the

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Speaker 1: Naked Scientists where they worked out the math on this,

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Speaker 1: and I thought this was pretty cool. So it depends

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Speaker 1: on a number of factors. But their estimate was that

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Speaker 1: for most people, the body performs a complete blood circuit

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Speaker 1: roughly every minute. And they found this because the average

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Speaker 1: adult has, you know, roughly five leaders of blood in

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Speaker 1: the body. The average heart pumps about seventy milli leaders

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Speaker 1: of blood every time it beats, and the average resting

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Speaker 1: heart rate is something like seventy beats per minute. And

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Speaker 1: if you multiply all these together, you find that the

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Speaker 1: heart circulates about four point nine are close to five

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Speaker 1: leaders of blood every minute. So on average, it probably

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Speaker 1: takes about one minute for your heart to circulate your

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Speaker 1: entire blood volume. And it does this minute after minute

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Speaker 1: after minute until you die. Isn't that crazy the longer

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Speaker 1: you look at it. Yeah, this idea of this endless

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Speaker 1: river of blood just circulating through your body. Now, blood,

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Speaker 1: of course, also has taken on various UH additional connotations,

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Speaker 1: connotations of heredity, class, race, violence, sacrifice, and more. I

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Speaker 1: was reading an article titled bio Securitization, the Quest for

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Speaker 1: Synthetic Blood and the Taming of Kinship by Cath Weston.

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Speaker 1: The author gets gets a bit deeper into the connotations

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Speaker 1: that will be discussing today, but there were several aspects

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Speaker 1: worth highlighting. First of all, just the idea of royal

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Speaker 1: blood and the divine right of kings, the idea that

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Speaker 1: there's like literally there's something in the bloodline, UM, the

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Speaker 1: idea of blood is a signifier of kinship, the idea

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Speaker 1: of the idea that your relatives are your blood relatives, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: and UH. An interesting thing that Weston points out to

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Speaker 1: is a historical tidbit is that blood transfusion UH during

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Speaker 1: its history has been objected to for both religious reasons

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into an example of that in a bit,

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Speaker 1: but also for reasons steeped in racist ideologies. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so the you know, the the metaphorical idea of blood

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Speaker 1: has often seemed to muddy our biological understanding of blood.

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Speaker 1: I think what this comes down to is that in

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Speaker 1: many ways, blood is seen as some kind of essence.

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Speaker 1: That it's not just a part of the body that

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Speaker 1: plays a particular role in um in energy and the

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Speaker 1: oxygenation of tissues and the removal of waste products and

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Speaker 1: the circulation of chemicals, hormones and things throughout the body.

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Speaker 1: But it also is somehow the soul of the thing.

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Speaker 1: It There are properties inherent to the animal or the

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Speaker 1: human that are represented by or borne through the blood

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Speaker 1: in particular. Yeah, it gets kind of weird when you

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Speaker 1: think about the fact that, like, on one hand, to

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Speaker 1: think that the blood is not us, that the blood

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Speaker 1: is just this this oil that we run on, Like

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Speaker 1: that's that's not completely correct. Like the blood we we

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Speaker 1: are blood, the blood is part of our body again,

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Speaker 1: it's it's tissue and a liquid. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: it were not just the blood. It's not like if

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Speaker 1: you drained our blood out and put us in a jar,

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Speaker 1: that's not us in the jar and empty shell over here.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm reminded of of myths, for instance, that

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Speaker 1: involve something like blood in other beings, like the the

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Speaker 1: episode we did on Tallos the Bronze automaton and the

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Speaker 1: idea that he had this I corp in his body

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Speaker 1: that was like the magical substance that that made him function,

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Speaker 1: and that that reveals a lot about how blood was

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Speaker 1: was considered in prior ages. Yeah, it's like the oil

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Speaker 1: and the car engine, but it's also the it's somehow magical,

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Speaker 1: it's somehow bearing the properties of godhood. And when you

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Speaker 1: take out the plug and allow all of the I

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Speaker 1: cord to drain out, he just kind of comes to

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Speaker 1: a halt. Yeah. So indeed, like the idea of taking

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Speaker 1: the blood from one person, the blood that is part

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Speaker 1: of that person, in putting it into another person, you

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Speaker 1: know that that that opens up the door for a

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Speaker 1: lot of you know, I guess, uh, you know, metaphorical

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Speaker 1: ideas about what that means. What does it mean that

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Speaker 1: that person is now in me um or what orient

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Speaker 1: in the when there's an injury, What does it mean

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Speaker 1: that a lot of me is an out like on

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Speaker 1: the pavement. That sort of thing. Now that brings us

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Speaker 1: to what we're mainly going to be talking about today

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Speaker 1: the idea of blood transfusions. Again, if you lose too

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Speaker 1: much blood in a short period of time, you can die.

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Speaker 1: One way that we know that that can be prevented

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Speaker 1: today is by adding more blood, assuming it is the

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Speaker 1: correct sort of blood. When a blood transfusion is done correctly,

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Speaker 1: can save lives. It's you know, this is I think

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Speaker 1: something that most of us are familiar with. UH and

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Speaker 1: as we detailed in last year's episode, which I think

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Speaker 1: we recently re ran in our feed UH, one does

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Speaker 1: have to get it just right to respect the different

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Speaker 1: blood types and this was a significant hurdle to overcome

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Speaker 1: in medical science totally. But the idea of synthetic blood

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Speaker 1: or a blood substitute, you know, the idea of there

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Speaker 1: being something other than blood that you could fill one

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Speaker 1: up with when you're you're facing a life threatening shortage. UM.

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Speaker 1: The key argument here would be, you know, something could

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Speaker 1: be manufactured it ahead of time and some degree kept

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Speaker 1: on a shelf for use in times of emergency. So

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Speaker 1: this was you know, just decreasing to some extent the

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Speaker 1: reliance on blood and tissue donation. UM. I think it's

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Speaker 1: also been argued that this would be ideal if you

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Speaker 1: were dealing with a very far flung situation. You can't

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Speaker 1: have a proper blood bank on hand, but perhaps you

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Speaker 1: have some sort of short term substitute that can be

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Speaker 1: used instead. But of course, the other side of the

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Speaker 1: scenario is that such blood would be a product not

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Speaker 1: unlike true blood from the TV show that we mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss where we are in our quest for a

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Speaker 1: true blood substitute, but first we want to explore some

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Speaker 1: of the earliest and really some of the weirdest and

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Speaker 1: grossest ideas for synthetic blood. It's really a wonderfully bizarre

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Speaker 1: bit of history. So one of the sources I was

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Speaker 1: looking at here is titled Artificial Blood by Suma and Sarkar,

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Speaker 1: and it was published in two thousand and eight by

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Speaker 1: the Indian Journal of Critical Care Medicine. And in this

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Speaker 1: the author points out that the notion of artificial blood

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Speaker 1: has pretty much stirred in the human mind for as

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Speaker 1: long as people have bled to death from their injuries.

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Speaker 1: Like we've we've realized that there's something and and this

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Speaker 1: can get kind of, I think, kind of vague and

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Speaker 1: magical as to the you know, the idea that blood

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Speaker 1: is important and if we lose it we can die,

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Speaker 1: and hey have its loss means death. Perhaps it's uh,

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Speaker 1: to add blood is to add life or to restore it. Now,

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Speaker 1: certainly there's a there's a mix of magic and myth

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Speaker 1: and early medicine here. Uh. Sarkar points to ink and

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Speaker 1: folklore depicting something arguably like blood transfusion. I've also seen

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Speaker 1: it pointed out elsewhere that Odysseus temporarily resuscitates underworld shades

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Speaker 1: by offering them um blood sacrifice in the Odyssey. The

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Speaker 1: idea of blood as if not a biological underpinning of life,

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Speaker 1: you know, something tied up with our conception of the

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Speaker 1: life force. That that passage in the Odyssey is pretty stirring.

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Speaker 1: I was looking at a Robert Fagel's translation of it,

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Speaker 1: and basically, Odysseus is instructed to um to to flay

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Speaker 1: and then burn these um the the the animals and

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Speaker 1: sacrificial rams or what have you, in order to like

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Speaker 1: draw in the spirits of the dead so that he

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Speaker 1: can commune with them. And then of course later on

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Speaker 1: he does it. Uh. And it's it's it's actually really

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Speaker 1: rather creepy. Yes, and I would say one reason is

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Speaker 1: that it contains this older Greek view of the afterlife,

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Speaker 1: sort of the pre Platonic view of the afterlife in

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Speaker 1: Greek thought, which is less the idea of you know,

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Speaker 1: places of possible reward or punishment, and more the idea

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Speaker 1: that everyone who dies just dwells forever. In this miserable,

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Speaker 1: confused dungeon of shades. All right, on that wonderfully spooky note,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with tales of early blood transfusions. Thank alright, we're

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Speaker 1: back now in talking about substitutes for human blood that

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Speaker 1: can be hooked up to your veins. One of the

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Speaker 1: easiest places you know, you can imagine people would have

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Speaker 1: looked is to the blood of other animals. That's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh and and this at this point, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: we're gonna move to around uh sixteen sixteen, because that's

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Speaker 1: when a man by the name of William Harvey described

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Speaker 1: blood circulation, which is going to be key just a

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Speaker 1: better understanding of like what's actually going on with blood.

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Speaker 1: And in the following years, numerous substances were tried out

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Speaker 1: as a stand in for human blood, and the list

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Speaker 1: provided by Sarkar in that article I cited earlier is

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Speaker 1: pretty horrific. It includes beer, urine, milk, plant resins, and

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Speaker 1: of course sheep blood. Now sheep's blood is at least blood, right,

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Speaker 1: so at least it has that going for it. And

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Speaker 1: and this is known as zeno transfusion. The first documented

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Speaker 1: zeno transfusion was conducted by French physicians Jean Baptiste du

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Speaker 1: Ni and Paul Imarez in sixteen sixty seven, and it

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Speaker 1: apparently successful between a fifteen year old boy and a lamb. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So this first one was largely reported as successful. I

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Speaker 1: think that could be defined in a number of ways,

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Speaker 1: depending on what you what you call success. At least

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Speaker 1: it was reported that the fifteen year old boy felt

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Speaker 1: good afterwards. But this whole saga of Jean Baptiste Denny

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Speaker 1: is actually I started looking into this a little bit deeper,

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Speaker 1: and the more I looked, the weirder and weirder. God,

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Speaker 1: So I want to take a digression here to talk

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Speaker 1: about Denny and his his historical context. So one of

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Speaker 1: the papers I want to look at is by Benjamin H.

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Speaker 1: Chin Ye and I N. H chin Ye, published in

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Speaker 1: the Canadian bulletin of medical history in twenty sixteen called

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Speaker 1: Blood Transfusion and the Body and Early Modern France. Now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of this paper is concerned with what medical

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Speaker 1: worldview guided the work of late seventeenth century physicians like

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Speaker 1: Denny and Denise contemporaries, and the authors argued that the

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Speaker 1: physicians of France in this time did not really have

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Speaker 1: a unified system of anatomical theory guiding their work, but

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Speaker 1: rather a somewhat contradictory patchwork of contemporary natural philosophy and

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Speaker 1: anatomical research with a received background of galenic humoralism. So

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Speaker 1: this is the system that you're probably pretty familiar with

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Speaker 1: by this time that views health issues as largely related

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Speaker 1: to the balance and status of the four humors blood, flim,

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Speaker 1: black bile, and yellow bile. This is received from uh,

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Speaker 1: not invented by, but sort of shaped and received by

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Speaker 1: the Roman physician Galen. Now, the authors of this paper

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Speaker 1: tell the story of the first documented zeno transfusion with

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Speaker 1: some quotes from the report at the time. As you said,

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Speaker 1: the patient was a fifteen year old boy and he

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Speaker 1: had already been through twenty round ones of blood letting.

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Speaker 1: This was in order quote to assuage the excessive heat

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Speaker 1: that was a result of the boy's violent fever. And

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Speaker 1: in galenic theory, blood is associated with heat and excitation.

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Speaker 1: This is part of the place we get the idea

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Speaker 1: of being sanguine, right, you know, having an excess of

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Speaker 1: blood makes you sort of a brilliant and excited and energetic.

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Speaker 1: But this could be bad in in uh, in galenic thinking,

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Speaker 1: by causing fevers, by causing mania, and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So they let this guy's blood twenty times, and after

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Speaker 1: the twenty bleedings quote, his wit seemed wholly sunk, his

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Speaker 1: memory perfectly lost, and his body so heavy and drowsy

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Speaker 1: that he was not fit for anything all right. So,

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Speaker 1: so basically a situation where the bathtub was too hot.

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Speaker 1: Uh let some of the bathwater out. Now it seems

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Speaker 1: a bit too cold, right. The problem is that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he's appearing sluggish. It seems something is wrong with

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Speaker 1: his brain. Maybe he doesn't have memories or much energy.

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Speaker 1: Uh So Denny counters this by starting a transfusion. He

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Speaker 1: draws blood from the carotid artery of a lamb, and

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Speaker 1: then that blood goes into the vein in the boy's arm. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: the boy received about nine ounces of lamb blood, and

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Speaker 1: then Denny wrote that quote afterwards, he hath no longer

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Speaker 1: that slowness of spirit nor heaviness of body, which before

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Speaker 1: rendered him unfit for anything. He grows fat visibly, and

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Speaker 1: in brief is a subject of amazement to all those

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Speaker 1: that know him and dwell with him. So Danny concludes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems like he's doing good. Uh, And this was

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Speaker 1: on June sixty seven. But blood transfusions can be unpredictable.

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Speaker 1: There can be wildly different reactions and different patients depending

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Speaker 1: on often how the host's immune system in particular responds

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Speaker 1: to what's being put into the veins. And as we've

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Speaker 1: been taught talking about, despite being on the cutting edge

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Speaker 1: of seventeenth century anatomy and new surgical techniques, Denny was

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Speaker 1: also still in the grip of Galenism, which had been,

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Speaker 1: you know, a dominant force in European medicine since the

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire, and which attributed the bulk of medical pathologies

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Speaker 1: to imbalances or corruptions in the four humors. And Deny himself,

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Speaker 1: he agreed with this. He believed quote, the greatest part

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Speaker 1: of our diseases are but results of the distemper and

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Speaker 1: corruption of the blood. Now he doesn't say quite every disease,

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Speaker 1: but you can imagine he thinks most of them. So like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: you've got arthritis. Uh, your problem is you've got bad blood,

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Speaker 1: or you know you've got oh a fever. I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's a blood issue. We've got to get some

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Speaker 1: of that blood out. And so as a result, he believed, quote,

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Speaker 1: the speediest and commonest remedy they have in practice is

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Speaker 1: to evacuate the same by phlebotomy. Phlebotomy means blood letting,

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Speaker 1: or else refresh it and cool it by juliah. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, if you know, for most diseases, the

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Speaker 1: cause is bad blood, and the best treatment is to

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Speaker 1: drain the blood out or possibly to give the patient julips.

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Speaker 1: The paper doesn't explain what julips means here, so I

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Speaker 1: tried to look this up. I think what julips refers

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Speaker 1: to here is a flavored drink, for example, rose water

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Speaker 1: sweetened with sugar syrup. All right, so this is when

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Speaker 1: we talked to say about a mint julip. This is

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Speaker 1: the same word. Yeah, I think it was. Later on

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Speaker 1: that julip came to often have alcoholic connotations. I think

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Speaker 1: at this time it just would have meant a flavored drink,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily with alcohol in it. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: that is thought to deal with corruption of the blood,

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Speaker 1: but that is amazing. You know. Can you imagine you

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Speaker 1: show up at the hospital with dingay fever or whatever

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Speaker 1: and they're like, you could use some rose water? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Or if the or the two possible treatments on the

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Speaker 1: table are bleeding or a sweet drink, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: essentially you're gonna have kool aid or they're going to

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Speaker 1: drain you into a bucket. Well, it seems like between

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Speaker 1: the two, didn't he kind of favored one over the other.

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Speaker 1: It seems like he was a bleeder. And yeah that

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Speaker 1: that kid had not had twenty julips prior to the lamblood.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, I don't know how many julips he had,

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Speaker 1: but they did bleed him twenty times. Uh, maybe you

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Speaker 1: got a julip every time, who knows. It's like the

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Speaker 1: brownie they give you and the when you go to

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Speaker 1: donate blood, you know you get brownies. Oh man, I

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00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: get um like peanut butter crackers. Sometimes I get what

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Speaker 1: is it? There's a special treat, oh Nutter butters. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: there are no I've seen the Nutter butters. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: confirmed in my experience. Like it it forces me to

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Speaker 1: equate peanut butter with the blood. Like basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking about the same thing here. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I lost some blood, gotta get some peanut butter in there.

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Speaker 1: That taste of the Nutter butter or the what is

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Speaker 1: it's I was trying to remember the name of the

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Speaker 1: little brownie that's got the colorful sprinkle on top that

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Speaker 1: they give you sometimes, and Seth chimed in there called

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Speaker 1: cosmic brownies. We think, yeah, I've never heard of that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like space I believe Seth space cakes. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think you should have one of those after

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00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: blood donation. You should have some space shrimp cocktail after

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Speaker 1: blood donation. But anyway, okay, So, so bleedings, bleedings, all

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Speaker 1: those bleedings obviously that Denny loves. They can really take

355
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Speaker 1: a toll. As described. You know what happened to this

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old so Denise saw blood transfusion from animals

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Speaker 1: as a perfect compliment to blood letting, and in his words,

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Speaker 1: It's quote the old and corrupt being first evacuated, could

359
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 1: then make room for the new and pure. So in

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Speaker 1: the case of the June sixteen sixty seven transfusion, this

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Speaker 1: teenage boy, he's blood twenty times to bring down his fever.

362
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Speaker 1: He's pretty low after that, and then lamb's blood is

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Speaker 1: used to revive him with a fresh, clean, non corrupted supply.

364
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 1: But Denny did not stop there with the xeno transfusions.

365
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 1: Later that same year, Denny also transfused sheep's blood into

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Speaker 1: the veins of a healthy forty five year old sedan chairman.

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00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: Now that means he was one of those guys who

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00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: carries fancy people around in the litter, you know. So

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Speaker 1: if you're fancy and you don't want to get your

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00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 1: boots wet, you can ride in a box where four

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00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 1: guys carry you on poles. So you have to imagine

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Speaker 1: if if this guy is a professional sedan chairman, he's

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Speaker 1: probably pretty fit, right, Yeah, he's got to be kind

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Speaker 1: of a hoss. And for that reason, I've seen this

375
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Speaker 1: case and the idea that there's no identified cause for it,

376
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 1: it seems like this was maybe a negative control, just

377
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Speaker 1: like seeing what a transfusion does into a healthy guy,

378
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: and reportedly this guy was fine. And then after that,

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Speaker 1: Denis performed a transfusion of Calf's blood on a Swedish

380
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: and nobleman who was dying of an unspecified illness in Paris.

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Speaker 1: And the first transfusion this guy got seemed to sort

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Speaker 1: of enliven him, bringing him back a bit freshen him up,

383
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Speaker 1: but then he died while in the middle of receiving

384
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: his second transfusion. We don't know why he died. But

385
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: then finally the authors tell the story of how Dennis

386
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: performed again a similar operation on a thirty four year

387
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Speaker 1: old man named Antoine Moroy in an attempt to treat

388
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Speaker 1: a supposed mental illness. I read this case described more

389
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 1: fully in another paper by James G. Chandler, Teresa L. Chin,

390
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: and Max V. Wool Hour called direct Blood Transfusions in

391
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Speaker 1: the Journal of Vascular Surgery from and I was having

392
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Speaker 1: trouble finding out exactly what Moroy's symptoms were. The main

393
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: report about him. The main symptom that is described is

394
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: that he would quote intermittently disappear from his suburban home

395
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: to indulge in paris Is sensual pleasures. I'm not sure

396
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: if that's actually a symptom of an illness, but right,

397
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: I mean, because certainly that that could go along, that

398
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: could certainly be the practice of one who's suffering from

399
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: a true mental illness. But you know, this could also

400
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: just this could also be a case of sexual addiction

401
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 1: or they or it could just be you know, merely

402
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: this person had a very you know, exciting sex life,

403
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: and whether they decided to treat yeah, so I don't know,

404
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: but it is widely reported at the time. Everyone says

405
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: he was a known madman. So without any other we

406
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: just have to assume that there is something else going

407
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: on with him, I guess. So. Denny, of course, attributed

408
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: this supposed insanity to humorl imbalance. Deny's solution, well, you've

409
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: got to remove this man's blood and replace it with

410
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: calf's blood, and din he believed that the sweetness and

411
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: freshness of the calf's blood would temper the ardor and

412
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: the boiling of the man's existing blood. So Denny tries

413
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: this out. They bled him of two d ninety milli

414
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: leaders of his own blood, and then they put about

415
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: a hundred and seventy five milli leaders of blood from

416
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: a calf's femoral artery into a vein in Moroy's arm,

417
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: and it was reported that his temperament became more subdued

418
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Speaker 1: by the process. So it was repeated in the presence

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Speaker 1: of a number of observing physicians a few days later,

420
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Speaker 1: and the second transfusion did not go as well as

421
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: the first one. Maroy reacted first by he said he

422
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: had lumbar pains, a pain in the lower back, and

423
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: tightness in his chest, and he presented an irregular pulse.

424
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: And then the next day this progressed into vomiting and

425
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: a nose bleed, and maybe most alarmingly, h to quote

426
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: from Denise report, he produced a tall glass of urine,

427
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: as black as if it had been deluded by my fireplace.

428
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: I want to be clear here that it may sound,

429
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: it may come through a little bit like I'm I'm

430
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: purely laughing on my side, but um, this is I'm

431
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: feeling an immense sense of revulsion here. This has just

432
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: giving me the all over. Yeah god, uh So you

433
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: would think this would suggest the transfusion was a bad idea, right,

434
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: that this guy's he's experiencing chest pain, back pain, he's vomiting,

435
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: his nose is bleeding and he's peeing black. Yes, but

436
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: Denny considered it a success, And the reason he considered

437
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: it a success was he interpreted the results of into

438
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: humorl theory. He believed that the black urine was an

439
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: evacuation of excess black bile from the body, which he

440
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: wrote is known to send vapors up into the brain

441
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: which disrupt its function. So, according to Deny, he had

442
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: been mistaken that the problem was too much corrupted blood. Instead,

443
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: the problem was too much corrupted black bile, and the

444
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: transfusion had caused the body to evacuate at all, and

445
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: Dinny believed that his transfusion had somewhat succeeded in curing Moroy.

446
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: It's such a the The history thus far is is

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: very fascinating because you know, if you're not familiar with it,

448
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: and you hear about, okay, the first blood transfusion and

449
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: it's going to involve a human and um and and lamb,

450
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: you just assume it's going to end and just disaster

451
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: and just to end in death, and that that will

452
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: be a stumbling block. But then it's not, or seemingly not.

453
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: And then in this case, something that seems like a

454
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: firm warning, um, do not proceed, rethink what you were

455
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: doing is interpreted as a success. Yeah, exactly, though not

456
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: by everyone. I should note because the paper by chin

457
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: Ye and chin Ye notes that there was a rival

458
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: Parisian physician named Guillome Lamie who he disagreed, and he

459
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: argued that the black urine was a negative reaction to

460
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: the calf's blood. But the reason, he said was that

461
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: it was indicative of the body's attempt to purge the

462
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: contamination of a substance that was against its nature, which

463
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: sounds kind of close. But I think this opposition is

464
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: being infused with, you know, ideas of sort of like

465
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: spiritual essential is um that are not really proper in medicine. Uh.

466
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: It sounds to me like Mroy was probably suffering from

467
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: what is now called an acute hemolytic reaction, which is

468
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: a widely known rare side effect of a blood transfusion,

469
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: I guess, more common if it is not a properly

470
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: controlled blood transfusion, and this is where the recipient's immune

471
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: system interprets the donor red blood cells as invasive pathogens

472
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: and attacks them hemolysis in in the name acute hemolytic reaction.

473
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: Hemallysis means the destruction of red blood cells, and then

474
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: the red blood cells under attack release a substance into

475
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: the blood that the body has to try to purge,

476
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: and this substance can cause severe damage to the kidneys.

477
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: And this will sound pretty familiar now. Symptoms of an

478
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: acute hemolytic reaction include, among other things, chest and lower

479
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: back pain, nausea, and dark urine. But then there is

480
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: an even stranger epilogue to the Moroy story. Uh So,

481
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: picking up with what's covered in the Chandler at All paper, Denny,

482
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: of course considered Moroy somewhat cured, and I guess this

483
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: meant that he was no longer a seeker of sensual pleasures,

484
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: at least at first after what happened. And the authors

485
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: here say that at first Maroy behaved as his wife wished,

486
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 1: but then he became truculent again, and they say this

487
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: was quote prompting her to insist st on another transfusion.

488
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: Moroy refused to cooperate and received no blood, so he

489
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: was going to get a third transfusion, but it didn't

490
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: go forward, and then quote he died that evening, and

491
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: his wife perhaps with the encouragement of some physician critics,

492
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: accused Denny of killing her husband. Denny was tried for

493
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: manslaughter but exonerated when it was discovered that Mrs Moroy

494
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: was poisoning her husband with arsenic and then the following year,

495
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: the French Parliament enacted a ban on transfusion of blood

496
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: into humans, so he tries to do this third transfusion

497
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: doesn't work out. Maroy dies, his wife is found to

498
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: have been poisoning him, or at least is believed to

499
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: have been poisoning him, and then we get a ban

500
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: on on transfusions in France. But it also doesn't stop

501
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: there because while you can imagine it's common enough for

502
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: a person to be murdered by a spouse, the story

503
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: gets even more complicated. I was reading about a book

504
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: by a Vanderbilt University historian named Holly tuck Her that

505
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: argues the case for a conspiracy of rival physicians to

506
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: intentionally murder Antoine Mouroy and framed Deny fore causing his death. Now,

507
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: I haven't read this book. That sounds extremely interesting, but

508
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: I want to give you the gist, mostly based on

509
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: a review in the Journal of Clinical Investigation by Neil Blumberg. So,

510
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: to start, we know that Denise galenic humor theory was

511
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: hopelessly misguided. Right, This is not a good basis for

512
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: medical intervention. There is no reason to think that blood

513
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: from a docile lamb will treat mania and humans mental

514
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: illness doesn't work that way, and there's no way to

515
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: predict or prevent which of these would result in a

516
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: severe or life threatening rejection of the donor blood. But

517
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: despite how misguided and dangerous Denise treatments were, Denise rivals

518
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: opposed them for almost equally misguided reasons. A lot of

519
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: these I think some were probably just sort of motivated

520
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: by ambition, you know, they were kind of temporal and

521
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: political rivalries. But many of Denise opponents had extreme religious

522
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: and conceptual opposition to blood transfusions. For example, some of

523
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: them believed that the transfusion of blood from an animal

524
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: could turn a human into a type of chimera or

525
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: some kind of animal human hybrid. You might become a

526
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: subhuman ware lamb or a ware calf, which is very

527
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: Gary Larson uh. And some also believed that the ingestion

528
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: of foreign blood through transfusion was a slippery slope to cannibalism.

529
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how you get there, but that

530
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: at least was was argued. Yeah, because it's I mean,

531
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: it's not like the humans we're talking about here weren't

532
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: already eating meat, right, Yeah, I would think that the

533
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: eating of meat would more likely give way to cannibalism

534
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: than the transfusion of blood from animals. Yeah. Yeah, And

535
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: this might sound kind of outlandish, like, well, how could

536
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: you get to that, you know, how could you have

537
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: this kind of opposite sh into blood transfusions? But uh,

538
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: I know, the case is made in Holly Tucker's book,

539
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: and Bloomberg himself brings up as a point of comparison

540
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: that quote. One might consider that current disagreements about stem

541
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: cell therapies are similar in nature, as some find it

542
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: impossible to separate considerations of religious belief and scientific approach.

543
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: So even today, we certainly do have, you know, bioethical

544
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: debates that are largely prompted by religious beliefs. That's true,

545
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean, you know, I certainly think to

546
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: any number of of chimerical um uh studies that have

547
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: come out, you know, there's always going to be that

548
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: that voice of criticism. That's going to raise the specter

549
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: of some sort of uh, you know, man goat hybrid

550
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. Right, this is against nature,

551
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: This is a perversion. Yeah, yeah, the shadow of Frankenstein there.

552
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: At the same time, it's interesting looking at all this

553
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: and thinking about like the sort of spirit that the

554
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: spiritual and religious ideas that are kind of a tribute

555
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: it to the idea of of first and foremost, you know,

556
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: the draining of the blood, the bleeding of the patient,

557
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: but then the idea of well it looks like, uh,

558
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: looks like your treatment didn't take You're still running, trying

559
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: to run off to Paris. We need to replace that

560
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: blood again. It reminds me of some of the criticisms

561
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: leveled at so called young blood transfusion that we've uh

562
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: we we've seen in in in recent years. You know,

563
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: the idea that an an older person could receive the

564
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: transfused blood of a younger person, uh, with some sort

565
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: of health benefits. And I believe this is this is

566
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: largely seen as pseudo scientific um. But but but I

567
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: can I can see some of the same energy in

568
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: young blood transfusion that you see kind of attributed to

569
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: the the you know, the poorly understood nature of blood

570
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: transfusion at the time in the UH the seventeenth century. Yeah,

571
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: I can totally see that, like this view of there's

572
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: some kind of unholy experiment that's being done in in

573
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: dark rooms that we don't have access to. And by

574
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: the way, anyone who watched the television series Silicon Valley

575
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: you might remember the the the young blood UH thing

576
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: being a part of the plot as the Holy Founder. A.

577
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Gavin Belson at one point has a quote unquote blood

578
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: boy who was responsible for providing him blood transfusions to

579
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: UH as as a as a believe like a life

580
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: hack to keep him young. Home man. Well, it's interesting

581
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: again to compare to the case of Dennis and his rivals.

582
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: I mean, well, maybe I should finish it first and

583
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: then say this. So. In the end, Holly Tucker's book

584
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: makes the argument that it was denise opponents, especially a

585
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: physician named Henri Martin de la Martiniere, who arranged the

586
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: murder of the patient of Antoine Mouroy by giving arsenic

587
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: to Moroy's wife and encouraging her to poison him. Ultimately,

588
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: she argues this was in an attempt to discredit Denise

589
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: medical theories, and it's a it's a case where there's

590
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: really no good guys because if you know, if Holly

591
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: Tucker's theory is correct, and they really did this, it

592
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: was a case of two camps that were both entirely

593
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: wrong fighting over this conceptual biomedical space. Oh wow, this

594
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: is such a wonderful bit of a bit of history. It.

595
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: I wonder if this has been adapted in any kind

596
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: of historical drama, because it's perfect for that sort of thing. Yeah,

597
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Anyway, that that is the very weird story

598
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: of early zeno transfusion in sixteen sixties France. Now, xeno

599
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: transfusion is technically still on the table today, but it's

600
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: generally not practiced with humans today because generally human blood

601
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: is much more forthcoming. Um but uh, but yeah, this

602
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: this strange history of of of blood, not just as

603
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: zeno transfusion, but again, thinking of the idea of like

604
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: beer and urine or or milk being used. Uh, this

605
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: brings to mind the various alternative bloods you often encounter

606
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: in humanoid beings in sci fi and fantasy. You know,

607
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: I instantly think of the milk white blood in Ridley

608
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: Scott's various androids or the yellow blood that you see

609
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: in Phantasms the Tall Man, or in the The Androids

610
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: of Halloween three, one of my favorites. Yeah. Um. Now,

611
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: on the subject of milk, Sarkar rights that indeed, in

612
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, milk was injected into the veins of

613
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: patients with the asiatic cholera, thinking that it would help

614
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: regenerate white blood. Sells, Oh, maybe is it like a

615
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: color match thing. That's what it sounds like. Now. The

616
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: thing is enough patients survived that they kept trying it.

617
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: They're like, well, nobody's dying. It seems like they're eventually

618
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: getting better. Let's just keep doing it. And there's a

619
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: lot of skepticism about the practice even at that time,

620
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: and this never really took off. There is so much

621
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: of medical history in a way, it's almost it's amazing

622
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: that medicine exists at all, because I don't know what

623
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: the year was, where on the whole medicine became more

624
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: helpful than harmful. It's like shockingly recent. If you go

625
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: not even all that far back into the past, it

626
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: seems like the majority of medical interventions were just like

627
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 1: painful and terrible and did nothing to help and maybe

628
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: it would kill you. Yeah. Once again, I come back

629
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: to that that that excellent Soderberg television series The Nick,

630
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: which takes place in New York City and nine D

631
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: and it's just portraying just the cutting edge of medicine

632
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: at the time, and even you know then you see

633
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: like just the catastrophic ways they get it wrong at times. Uh,

634
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, be at things like blood transfusions or drug

635
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: interactions or the use of X rays. Now, in terms

636
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: of other potential blood substitutes, things you can put into

637
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: the body in place of at least some of the blood, uh,

638
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: sailing solutions seemed to promising, uh solution for a bit

639
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: fair as doctors found that you could give a frog

640
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: a complete transfusion of sailing and it would survive, though

641
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: only for a short while. Um. However, that this is

642
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: the stuff was stally developed as a plasma volume expander. Now,

643
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: Sarkar does not go into detail about the beer and

644
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: the urine um tidbits, but they certainly don't highlight them

645
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: as successes. So UM, I assume they were not, you know,

646
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: huge medical successes. Now, in the eighteen hundreds, hemoglobin and

647
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: animal plasma seemed promising, but there were technical hurdles to

648
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: isolating enough hemoglobin, and animal blood um often contain toxins

649
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: that we're challenging to remove at the time. In eighteen

650
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: eighty three, the creation of Ringer's solution. This is named

651
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: for Sydney Ringer, who lived eighteen nine. UH. This changed

652
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: things a bit. Uh. So this is a solution of sodium,

653
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: potassium and calcium salts that was found to restore healthy

654
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: blood pressure after blood volume loss, and it's still used

655
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: today as a blood volume expander, but it does not

656
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: actually work as a blood substitute. Again, we have to

657
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: think of all the things that that blood does, and

658
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: this particular solution it doesn't, for instance, do anything that

659
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,959
Speaker 1: red blood cells do, such as carrying oxygen. Because again,

660
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: the human body is not just a big blood balloon.

661
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: You know, It's not just about warm volume. It's about

662
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: the vital function of the blood. So you can boost

663
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: the volume, but you still need something in the veins

664
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: doing the things that blood does. Now, as we discussed

665
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: in our previous episode on blood types, UH, the Austrian

666
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: UH immunologists and pathologist Carl Landsteiner, who of eighteen sixty

667
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: eight through ninety three discovered the primary a bio blood

668
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: groups around the years nineteen hundred or nineteen o one.

669
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: At the time, doctors knew that many blood transfusions caused

670
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: adverse reactions in their recipient, mainly agglutination, which is where

671
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: the red blood cells clumped together. Blood transfusion technology advanced

672
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,479
Speaker 1: a great deal from from that point on, and um

673
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: an interest in blood substitute was renewed, especially during the

674
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: World Wars of the twentieth century. I think I said

675
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: this in the Last Blood episode, but I can't see

676
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: the name of Carl Landsteiner without thinking of him as

677
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 1: Carl landst Er. Alright, So fast forward to nineteen sixty six.

678
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: This is when um per floro chemicals or PFC was

679
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: explored as a potential blood substitute. Doctors found that a

680
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: rat's blood could be completely removed and replaced with the stuff,

681
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: but only for a few hours at a time. Uh.

682
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: This stuff then had to be replaced with actual blood,

683
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: but a full recovery was possible. So obviously you can

684
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: see the possibilities there. You know, something something that's not blood.

685
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: We could at least get in there for a little

686
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: bit to stabilize the patient until actual blood can be

687
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: made available. Star Car writes that while there was renewed

688
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: interest during the AIDS epidemic and during Vietnam, for the

689
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: most part, advances in blood banking itself has, you know,

690
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: has resulted in less research for the idea of a

691
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: true blood substitute, because ultimately, nothing takes the place of

692
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: human blood quite like human blood. But if we're going

693
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: to have synthetic blood, star Car points out that there

694
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: are a few key uh points that must be met. Okay,

695
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: like what so, First of all, it has to be

696
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: safe and compatible with the human body. Ideally, it should

697
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: also be universal for all blood types. You know, that's

698
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: not an absolute requirement, but certainly, if you're talking about

699
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: something that is just on a hand, say in a

700
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: field hospital situation, to hold the patient over until an

701
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: actual blood bank can come into play, it would be

702
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: nice if it just took care of all humans and

703
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: you didn't have to to deal with type. On top

704
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: of that, it needs to be able to transport oxygen

705
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: throughout the body, and it needs to offer more robust

706
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: shelf stability, such as lasting a year rather than a

707
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: mere month as with donor blood. As such, there are

708
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: basically two major areas of research under way. First of all,

709
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: per floral carbons, these are inexpensive, they're devoid of biological

710
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: materials that could spread infection. However, they're not water soluble

711
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: and they carry much less oxygen compared to hemoglobin based products. Second,

712
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: you have hemoglobin based products, so these are oxygen containing.

713
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: They're involved in oxygen transport with our own red blood cells,

714
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: so it's a great place to start. Now. The downside

715
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: to this direction is that raw hemoglobin would break down

716
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: into toxic compounds, and there are solutions stability issues as well.

717
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: Quote the challenge and creating a hemoglobin based artificial blood

718
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: is to modify the hemoglobin molecule so these problems are resolved.

719
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: So you could depend on either isolated hemoglobin or synthetically

720
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: produced hemoglobin. If it's isolated, the product is actually made

721
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: from human blood, typically blood for transfusions that has already expired.

722
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: Animal blood is another option, apparently, but in this case

723
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: the hemoglobin would need to be modified before use. Hemoglobin synthesis, however,

724
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: is a process that involves the use of a strain

725
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: of E. Coli bacteria that has the ability to produce

726
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: human hemoglobin. There's a process involving bacterial destruction, fermentation and

727
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: isolation in a centrifuge, then final processing via the addition

728
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: of water and electrolytes, so farming it from bacteria. I

729
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah. Yeah. Now, as as for limitations, again,

730
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: as of this paper's writing, most of the hemoglobin based

731
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: products were lasting no more than twenty to thirty hours

732
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: in the body hold. Blood transfusions last thirty four days

733
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: for comparison. Also, this sort of blood substitute wouldn't bring

734
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: clotting or disease fighting to the table, so that leaves

735
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: its potential again more as a short term solution, something

736
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: to get in the body, uh, while you're waiting to

737
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: access the fruits of blood bank. And of course this

738
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: is not even getting into some of the issues concerning

739
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: biosecurity and privatization of synthetic biology as it concerns ethical dimensions, etcetera.

740
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: Oh wait, so you could have like, uh, somebody's got

741
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: a patent on the blood that's in your arteries right now,

742
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: and yeah, well that's the well, that's the kind of

743
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: thing that's often brought up in these discussions. I mean, however, obviously,

744
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: the way I do, I do think it is important to,

745
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, stress that it would be great if there

746
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: was if we were to develop a pure, you know,

747
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: blood substitute that, even if it only worked for a

748
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 1: short time, could be kept on hand. You know, that's

749
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: something that that was universal, something with with a decent

750
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: shelf life. Uh, you know, even if it wasn't a

751
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: permanent solution, if it wasn't quite as good as human blood,

752
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: if it could just serve as a as as a patch,

753
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, until a proper blood transfusion can take place,

754
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: that would be immensely helpful. Totally. Should we take a

755
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: break and then come back to talk a little more, Yes,

756
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: thank alright, we're back. So I was looking around for

757
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: for more recent work. I was looking at a two

758
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen study by Wing at All published in Bio

759
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: macro Molecules, and they point out that hemoglobin on its own,

760
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: like we discussed this toxic, but that a chemically modified

761
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: version forms um methemoglobin, which doesn't bind oxygen. Uh, this

762
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: decreases the oxygen in the blood. In the generation of

763
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: methemoglobin produces cell damaging hydrogen peroxide. So the researchers in

764
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: this case looked into packaging hemoglobin in a quote unquote

765
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: benign envelope in this case um polydopamine or p d A,

766
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: which is already understudy for biomedical applications. Their findings showed

767
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: promise with the package delivering oxygen while preventing the formation

768
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: of meth, methmoglobin and hydrogen peroxide, and this resulted in

769
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: minimal cell damage. I mean, you can see pretty easily

770
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: why you wouldn't really want too much hydrogen peroxide in

771
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: your blood right now on the xeno transfusion front. Uh,

772
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: this was interesting. I came across a case report in

773
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: Clinical Case Reports by Rubinstein at All which discusses the

774
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: case of a fifty seven year old Jehovah's Witness with

775
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: a form of pure red cell um aplasia or pr

776
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: c A. Now, this is a type of anemia that

777
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: impacts the patient's ability to produce red but not white

778
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: blood cells. So blood transfusions are an important form of treatment.

779
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: But the individual in question turned down these transfusions for

780
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: religious reasons. And I believe the stems with the Jehovah's

781
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: Witness faith is an interpretation of abstaining from blood in

782
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: the Bible. I think this is from Leviticus. Yeah, there

783
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: are multiple passages cited by the Jehovah's witnesses. I think

784
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: the most common one is this one in Leviticus chapter seventeen,

785
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: where it says, Uh, for the life of the flesh

786
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: is in the blood, and I have given it to

787
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 1: you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls.

788
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: For it is the blood that makes the atonement for

789
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: the soul. Uh. And he says, therefore, to the children

790
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: of Israel, you shall not eat blood. And this and

791
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: some other passages are sort of interpreted in a in

792
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: a way to say, well, to be safe in following this,

793
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't receive blood transfusions either. But I was

794
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: actually this is this is interesting. There's a whole Wikipedia

795
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: page on the Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions that has

796
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: this gigantic of what types of procedures are allowed and

797
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: what are not allowed according to Church doctrine, because there

798
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: are there's not just one type of blood transfusion. They

799
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: are all kinds of blood related products that you can

800
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: have put into your body, and so there are some

801
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: that they accept and some they don't. In this case, however,

802
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: it seems like it was it was pretty much. A

803
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: don't on the idea of more human blood being put

804
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: into the patient for this treatment, but in this case,

805
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: the physicians used a quote bovine hemoglobin based oxygen carrier quote.

806
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: The patient received more than twenty units of HBOC two

807
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: oh one and was showing early signs of red blood

808
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: cell count recovery. Although the patient did not survive, administration

809
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: of the HBOC two o one did sustain her long

810
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: enough to allow for administration of immunosuppressive therapy, which ultimately

811
00:46:54,239 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: improved erythropoesis. Thus, administration of alternative hemoglobin based oxygen carriers

812
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: in the setting of red cell at plasia associated with

813
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: thy momus warrants further investigation. And that's interesting. So this

814
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: is a product that is derived from the hemoglobin, the

815
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: oxygen carrying protein that would be found in the red

816
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: blood cells originally of cows or some of their bovine

817
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, And I think this is in line

818
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: with a lot of the stuff I was seeing about

819
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: Jehovah's witnesses beliefs that um often that they will receive

820
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: certain types of blood products, but the objection more often

821
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: is to whole blood. Now, leaving medical research and uh,

822
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: and religious beliefs. Maybe we should come back to our

823
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 1: vampire introduction because I think you were hypothesizing that vampires

824
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: might might find themselves rather picky over what types of

825
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: synthetic blood are are tasty or or go well with

826
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: their I don't know what it would it be the

827
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: digestive system, what system receives the blood vampire? Well, I

828
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: guess that's the tricky thing about vampires, right, is that there,

829
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: of course create is a fantasy and interpretations of their

830
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: their blood drinking. It's going to range from the biological,

831
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: the biologically grounded, to the utterly magical. So what like,

832
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: what is the nature of the blood that the vampire

833
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: is drinking? Are they drinking like the magical life force

834
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: of a being, you know, the splendid iy core of

835
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: the Sons of Adam? Or is it like actual blood?

836
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: Are they an actual sangovore much like a vampire bat?

837
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: And obviously, depending on what your answer is is going

838
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: to be, you know, entirely different, and certainly you could

839
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: have You can imagine a situation where you have a

840
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: synthetic blood that is certainly helpful treating individuals who who

841
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: who need it, but is going to be kind of

842
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: useless or at least not all that desired by blood

843
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: drinking supernatural beings. But I thought, you know, what's what's

844
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: the one thing we can definitely do. We can definitely

845
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: look to the vampire bats. We can look at blood

846
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: drinking in the natural world and see if there's anything

847
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: out there that at all relates to this question. So

848
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: I was looking at wanted blood for vampire bats by

849
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: Lynn Laws, writing for the Iowa State University College of

850
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: Agricultural and Life Sciences. So, vampire bats we've discussed in

851
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: the show before typically feed on fresh cow blood and

852
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: only rarely bite humans. Typically for captive vampire bats, and

853
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: like a laboratory or a zoo environment or some sort

854
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: of enclosure, cow blood does the trick um, but in

855
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: zoo conditions, especially, an anticoagulant is added to the blood

856
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: to keep it fresh enough for feeding via little peachy

857
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,919
Speaker 1: dishes that are placed out in the enclosure. Oh I see,

858
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: So like, if you don't add an anticoagulant, you could

859
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: have the same problem you get where you leave the

860
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: soup out and it forms a skin. Yeah, one imagines, yeah,

861
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: that you need to keep you want the blood obviously,

862
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: vampire bats are not going to go around in their

863
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: natural environment drinking blood out of little puddles. Uh, you know,

864
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: so you need to keep it fresh. You need something

865
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: to fresh it up, an anticoagulant see ms to do

866
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: the trick. There apparently have also been experiments with freezing

867
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: the blood, and there's hope that we could eventually create

868
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: a dried powder that could be reconstituted at zoos for

869
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: the bats. So you add water to it and you

870
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: got blood, you know, sort of like a kool aid powder,

871
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: but for blood drinkers. Oh yeah, um, this brings me back.

872
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: I think there's a part in Guillermo del Toro's Blade

873
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: to where like Russian vampires are like snorting lines of

874
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: of like crystallized blood or something or something. You know,

875
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be crystallized blood. Um. So, I don't know,

876
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: maybe they ran across the same sort of research when

877
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: they were putting together to that film. That's funny. Would

878
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: it be different snorted than it would be just drank? Um? Well,

879
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it doesn't really, it doesn't

880
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense that the psychological difference. Yeah,

881
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. You get the idea. It's like, as vampires,

882
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: they just like blood. They'll take it anyway they can

883
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: get it. They'll drink it, they'll snort it up their nose,

884
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: they'll freak a bath in it. Yeah, paste the blood,

885
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: smoke the blood. Um. Uh. You know, well whatever serves

886
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: as a useful metaphor for you know, for us to

887
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: use in creating a vampire, like the vampire has addict

888
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: the vampire as as you know, a moral themed etcetera. Now,

889
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 1: going back to what we're discussing though, in the possibilities

890
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: for for a synthetic blood, if you end up with

891
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: a blood substitute that is actually made from human blood,

892
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, that's the that's depending on the hemoglobin. Uh.

893
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: That would be an interesting scenario, right, because you could

894
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: potentially have fake blood for the vampires to keep the

895
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: vampires at bay, that is actually made from human blood,

896
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: but maybe is like you know, it is the the

897
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: result of of blood bank blood that has not been

898
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: fully utilized. So the vampires might not be really all

899
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 1: that happy about it. But maybe you know, you wouldn't

900
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: behave be having to just bleed yourself dry for the vampires.

901
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: You would you would have like a secondary product that

902
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: makes them mostly happy. Yeah, they'd be helping us deal

903
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: with medical waste. Yeah, so that would that things kind

904
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: of like a very very much a reduced stature for

905
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: something like Count Dracula. You know, it's like, I know,

906
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: you want to be the Lord of the night and

907
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: you know, drink our blood and have a serview, But

908
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: what if you just gobbled up our medical waste? Are

909
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: you on board? Yes? All right. On that note, we're

910
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and close it out here. We're gonna

911
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: remind everybody that if you want to support the show,

912
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: of great thing to do is to rate, review and subscribe.

913
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: If you want to go to stuff to Blow your

914
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: mind dot com, you'll go to our I heart page.

915
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,840
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916
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Speaker 1: our t shirt shop and check out some cool designs there.

917
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Speaker 1: That's another way you can support the show. Buy a

918
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Speaker 1: shirt with a monster on Huge. Thanks as always to

919
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would

920
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

921
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

922
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email

923
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 1: us at contact That's stuff to Blow Your Mind dot

924
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:11,680
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925
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,680
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