1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. All Right, 2 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Rivals, the show about music rivalries, beefs, feuds, 3 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: long simming resentments between pop stars. I'm your host, Stephen Hyden. 4 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm your co host Jordan Runt Talk, and today we're 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about two of the greatest pop stars 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: of all time. You square it off, dearly beloved, or 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: gather here today to get through this thing called Michael 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: Jackson and Princes so smooth, Just like the record just 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: I was like, am I listening to? Uh, Let's go 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: crazy right now? I felt like that for a minute. 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: Available for parties, weddings. Yeah, we're gonna talking about Prince 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: versus Michael Jackson. Okay, let's dive into this battle. A 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: lot of twist and turns in this story, and you 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: may know some of them. You probably don't know all 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: of them, though. It's like these are two of the 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: most famous people ever. I feel like we all know 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: something about Prince and Michael Jackson. We all love their music. 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: We might feel complicated feelings about one of these people. 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: Maybe we don't like them as much as we used to. 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: We can get into that later in this episode. But 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: you can't talk enough about just the impact that both 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: of these men have had. And you know, when you 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: talk about their early lives, there are some parallels. I mean, 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: they're both born in ninety eight in the summer of night. 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson's born in June. Prince towards the end of August, 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: so about two and a half months or so separates them. 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: Both born in the Midwest, Michael Jackson was he born 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: in Gary, Indian. Prince of course, born in Minneapolis, Minnesota, 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: which is where I live. By the way, we used 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: to be sort of neighbors for a while, which is 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: one of the great prides of my life. You get 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: his newspaper sometimes stuff like that. Well, yeah, sometimes it 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: was occasionally some times like the assless Pants would come 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: to my house and like, these don't look like the 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: assles pants I ordered. They're a little too small for me. 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: I'll run him over to Prince's house with maybe a 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: play the Brownies or something and maybe you'll let me 38 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: hang out. Um after that, I mean, their lives obviously diverge. 39 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: I mean, by the end of the sixties, Michael Jackson 40 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: is already one of the most famous pop stars on 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: the planet. He's the lead singer of the Jackson Five. 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: You know, the Jackson five. They kind of just come 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: barreling out of the shoot right away with you know, 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: on Motown. They're putting it out I Want You Back. 45 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: Their debut single, one of the greatest debut singles for 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: any group ever. I would say, incredible song, Number one song, 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: many many hits after that. ABC. So Michael Jackson, he's 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: in the Jackson five, He's a huge star. He's a kid. 49 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: He's growing up in the public eye and it's crazy. 50 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he will be one of the most famous 51 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: people on the planet for like the rest of his 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: life at that point, like starting at age like eleven 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: or so. By the end of the seventies, he started 54 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: to spread his wings outside of the family. In seventy 55 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: puts out Off the Wall, a blockbuster solo record, one 56 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: of the greatest pop records of all time. I would say, 57 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: the best Michael Jackson record. I had to. That's kind 58 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: of the cool kid pick because it's like the slightly less, 59 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: which is what smart people do. Revolver is better than 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: Sergeant Picker. Off the Walls is better than Thriller, But 61 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, he puts out Thriller in eighty two, the 62 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: biggest pop record of all time. I mean, he is 63 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: at that point probably the biggest music star of all time. 64 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: My my perspective is skewed because I am older than you. 65 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: I'm older than you by ten years. So I remember 66 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: that time. I was about five years old when that 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: album hit. Thriller was the first album I had on vinyl. 68 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: I think if you were born in the seventies and earlier, 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, around that time. I was born in seventy seven, 70 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: if you were born around that time, it's one of 71 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: those albums that, like, literally anyone from the age of 72 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: five to eighty you bought Thriller. It just appealed to 73 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: such a wide demo graphic of people. So Michael Jackson's 74 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: huge early eighties. Let's go back to Prince. He doesn't 75 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: become famous at age eleven. He's just the kid. His 76 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: father is a musician. He's sort of a prodigy himself. 77 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: He's learning how to play different instruments. He's learning how to, 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, sing and perform. He's studying, he's listening to records. 79 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: Puts out his first record, I believe it was seventy eight, 80 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: self titled record, has his first number one R and 81 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: B hit in seventy nine with I Want to Be 82 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: Your Lover. In eighty he puts out Dirty Mind, which 83 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: is I think his first sort of acknowledged masterpiece album. 84 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: It's the album that makes him a critic darling at 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: that time. His next record, I think, his controversy. And 86 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: then he puts out In nine, which is like a 87 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: blockbuster record. You have the title track a month before Thriller, 88 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: a month before Thriller, and by any other standard, would 89 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: be a blockbuster pop record. Of course it's not as 90 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 1: big as Thriller, but it's a big record, all these hits. 91 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: And then a few years after that he puts out 92 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: Purple Rain, the album and the film, and that is 93 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: what shoots Prince into the upper echelon of pop stars 94 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: in that company with Michael Jackson, Madonna, Bruce Springsteen around 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: that time with Born in the USA is a big star. 96 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: He's like on the Mount Rushmore eighties pop stars. Because 97 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: of Purple Rain. This is the point where Michael Jackson 98 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: and Prince are kind of in the same world. And 99 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting, like when you read magazine profiles from that time, 100 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: because you know, we think of Michael Jackson and Prince 101 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: is always being in the same context. Now, you know, 102 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: you think, oh, they're both huge eighties stars. But at 103 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: the time, as Prince was ascending, the narrative and a 104 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: lot of the stories was about him being an outsider. 105 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: He's from Minneapolis. He maintained a base in Minneapolis. That's 106 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: where he worked and lived in Minneapolis at that time. 107 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it had no national profile at all. You 108 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: might as well have been living on the moon as 109 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: far as like the major media centers in New York 110 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: and l a Are concerned. He's, you know, basically in 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: these albums by himself, playing all the instruments, producing, mixing, engineering, catering. 112 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: And you can trust that with someone like Michael Jackson, 113 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: who literally went through the Motown factory. I mean five 114 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: debut album was I think it was Diana Ross Presents 115 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: Dot Dot Dot the Jackson five. We had everything going. 116 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: And that is the contrast that was set up by 117 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: critics at that time that Michael Jackson was like this 118 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: legacy star, the epitome of born to do this. He 119 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: is like, you know, he is Coca Cola, he is 120 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: IBM McDonald's, you know, just the epitome of like mainstream 121 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: pop music commerce. And then you have Prince. You have 122 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: the upstart, the guy coming out of nowhere. He's kind 123 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: of a weird guy. He's he's an eccentric. He's writing 124 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: these incredibly catchy and infectious pop songs. But they also 125 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: have kind of a weird sensibility to them. They sound 126 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: a little bit different, their experimental there's a sort of 127 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: weird sexual undercurrent to them. He's very provocative and transgressive, 128 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: and that's how it's kind of set up at that time. 129 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: But they're also both sort of regarded as these genius musicians, 130 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: and at some point they're going to come into opposition. 131 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: There's four big conflicts as I see it, between them, 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: like four incidents, Am I right? Or there are other ones, 133 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: because there's like a big four. There are a couple 134 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: more than that I found, But yeah, there's the big 135 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: four that you so hopefully outlined in your absolutely incredible 136 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: book Your Favorite Band is Killing Me? Take a Drink 137 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,559 Speaker 1: Everybody at All Fine bookstares, Yes, my book, Your Favorite 138 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: Band is Killing Me, Take a drink Everybody about pop music? Ravalries, 139 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: I wrote about this Ravelry because that's one of my 140 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: favorites of all time. I said four. Well, first of all, 141 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: what before we get to the four that I talked 142 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: about my book. Your favorite band is killing me. Take 143 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: a drink. That's three drinks, by the way, our audience 144 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: is wasted already. If you could just say anything at 145 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: this point, what were some of the ones that I 146 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: didn't mention that you'd want to just mention because like 147 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: they come into because because again, like they're both huge 148 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: pop stars, they're both like alpha dogs, and they I 149 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: think grudgingly respect each other absolutely. I mean the things 150 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: that it was very interesting friendly was friendly, but like 151 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: they know that the other guy is really good. Yeah, 152 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: but they also feel like I have a huge ego 153 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm the man, I'm number one, and this 154 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: guy standing in my way. So when Prince is putting 155 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: together the Purple Rain tour, he went to UH to 156 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: watch I think several shows that the Jackson's within the 157 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: Victory tour and kind of took notes. And also after 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: Thriller came out and made UH some adjustments to UH 159 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: Purple Rain, which was then just to work in progress. 160 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: And then Michael kind of repaid the favor by I 161 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: guess when the Purple Rain tour went to l A 162 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: at the Forum. Did four nights at the Forum. I 163 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: think he was there every night, was what I read. 164 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: I think it was the interview with the Quest level 165 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: he said something about and he confirmed that. Um, but 166 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: sort of the big first public showdown between the two 167 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: that wasn't you know in the charts was the famous 168 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: James Brown performance at the Beverly Theater in Los Angeles 169 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: three and I feel like, people, you should almost pause 170 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: the show right now. You got you have to see 171 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: that and go watch this for for context, because it's 172 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: an incredible video. I mean not only because James Brown 173 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: looks like he's dressed as Jackie. Oh. I mean, it's 174 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: it's like, really, yeah, you have James Brown. You know, 175 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: early James, early eighties James Brown. I'm sure there was 176 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: there was no cocaine in the system at all at 177 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: that point. I'm sure he's clean as a whistle because 178 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: this concert from three's at the Beverly Theater in Los Angeles, 179 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: James Brown Concert. He brings Michael Jackson up first and 180 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: like Michael Jackson's kind of doing like James Brown dance 181 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: moves he's doing. But then he also when he takes 182 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: the mic and He's dressed in his like you know, 183 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: sergeant peppery kind of military a with the sunglasses, and 184 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: he just sings I Love You over and over again, 185 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: just rings every bit of emotion he possibly can of. 186 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: It just doesn't every different cadence. And and then he 187 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: whispers in James Brown's ear, and then and then all 188 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: of a sudden, like Prince just kind of materialized thin air. 189 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: It's like he's conjured like like Candy Man, like from 190 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: the movie Candy Man. And like the footage isn't great, 191 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: like it's it's grainy, and like you know that I've 192 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: been on YouTube has probably been like taped like twenty times, 193 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: so you can't make out things totally clear. But like 194 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: you said, like everyone is kind of dressed in like 195 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: the prototypical way that you'd expect them to see them, 196 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: Like James Brown looks like James Brown. Michael Jackson has 197 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: like the Sergeant Pepper outfit on, and Prince has like 198 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: the Prince hair, the whole ghet Austin powers, he the 199 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: frilly shirt kind of thing. Yeah, and he comes out 200 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: and like Prince just starts like wailing on the guitar 201 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: like he's he's playing on guitar. He's like dancing around 202 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: and he's just like, to me, he looks awesome. I'm like, 203 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: Prince is killing it. It's like I thought James Brown 204 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: was cool. I thought mj looked great. And then Prince 205 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: comes out and he's like he's owning this. But like 206 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: that wasn't the take a lot of people he I mean, 207 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: he's handed the guitar. Apparently the guitar was strong left handed, 208 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: I'd read that, and so he kind of fumbles a 209 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: little bit at least when you know what Prince is 210 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: capable of. I mean, especially if you've seen that video 211 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: of him at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 212 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: where he does while my guitar gently weeps and he 213 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: just like, if you put it against that, it's it's 214 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: absolutely no compar Harrison. You can see, especially at the 215 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: beginning when he first gets it, he's trying to like 216 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: find his way. But yeah, no, he's he's fine. And 217 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: then so he does this sort of half herded guitar 218 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: solo and then gyrates a bit with the guitar and 219 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: then strips off his shirt and then contrasting, you know, 220 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson says I love you into the mic, Prince 221 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: just kind of moans a totally and then dance is 222 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: a bit more and then he's kind of done. He's 223 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: sort of like wanders off the stage and with what 224 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: I can't tell if it's just incredible nonchalance or a 225 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: genuine accident. He just kind of brushes against this oversized 226 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: lamp street lamp prop and just knocks it over. As 227 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: his final like mic drop, Like the ultimate mic drop 228 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: is this massive street light prop, like you know, ten 229 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: ft tall. It's a huge thing, and it kind of 230 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: looks intentional, but I think it was an accident, but 231 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: he plays it off incredibly well. It just looks like, yeah, 232 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: it's like it's again, I'm done. I just destroyed this stage. 233 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: And you know, like you watch the show and you're 234 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: like there is a sense that like maybe Michael Jackson's 235 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: like paying homage to James Brown, whereas Prince is like 236 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: from paying amas to James Brown since he was six 237 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: years old. Yeah, I mean, but it's like there's like 238 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: sort of like a reverend thing to MJ's presence there. 239 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: And then Prince comes out and it seems like his 240 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: mission is just disrupt and to to disrupt and to 241 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: destroy and like I'm the man, and I'm taking both 242 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: of you out because James Brown, you had your day, 243 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: You're done. M J. You and are contemporaries, but I'm 244 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: the man. I'm better than you. And at this point 245 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: he hadn't put up Purple Rain yet, about a year 246 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: away from Purple Rain. But you could just you get 247 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: that sort of divide and conquered mentality from Prince and 248 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: it's beautiful. I watched that, and I'm like, well, they're 249 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: they're all cool, but I kind of lead towards Prince 250 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: in that regard. It's like that Prince is so cool 251 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: in this video. People associated with Prince later said that 252 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: that he, you know, I was sort of unhappy with it. 253 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: Um and his friends were giving him a hard time. 254 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: He said they made an ass of himself, but Michael 255 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: Jackson apparently thought that he looked bad. He apparently u 256 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: el A reads memoir uhl I said that Michael invite 257 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: him over to his house and was given him a tour, 258 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: and then they went into a screening room and Michael 259 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: put on the clip of him and laughed his ass off, 260 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: and then to cap it off, put on under the 261 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: Cherry Moon and laughed his ass at some of the 262 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: says so just he said he had this like queued 263 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: up to play guests of just Prince making, you know, 264 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: and his I guess there's famous audio that was done 265 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: I think when he was when Michael Jackson was writing 266 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: his memoir in eight Moonwalker, and the audio surface I 267 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: think after his death not too long ago, and there's 268 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: a clip when he's talking about it and he's saying like, 269 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: oh my god, he made such a full of himself, 270 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: Like oh, you know, it was everybody was screaming when 271 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: the thing fell over. It was like so Michael Jackson 272 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: took great delight in and apparently, you know, for the 273 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,479 Speaker 1: rest of his life felt that this was an incredible 274 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: humiliation and he relished it. Now, on the flip side 275 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: of that, let me preface this by saying, early Quincy 276 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: Jones gave a bunch of interviews I think too Echo two, 277 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: I should say, to run epic run of two to 278 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: New York Magazine and g Q, where he just he 279 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: just quick giving a damn about anything. He just you know, 280 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: he's talking about you know, who killed JFK, And you know, 281 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: trash and the Beatles and all this incredible stuff. One 282 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: of the greatest two interviews ever by anybody, and in 283 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: I forget which interview, I think it was. G q uh. 284 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: He claims that Prince was waiting in the parking lot 285 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: after the James Brown Show in his limo and tried 286 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: to run down Michael Jackson. Tried to get his driver 287 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: to run down Michael Jackson because he was so irate 288 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: about this this humiliation. Now again, I preface that by 289 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: saying that this was, you know, when Quincy Jones was 290 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, they're being Basis on the moon 291 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: and stuff, like I was gonna say, like Quincy was 292 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: like on his second bottle of champagne in the middle 293 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: of the interview. So yeah, that was I think the 294 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: same one where he talked about, like, you know, dating 295 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: Ivanka Trump and stuff. So you know, I make of 296 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: that what you will, but that's it's a very interesting 297 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: code of that, you know what. I'm gonna just choose 298 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: to believe it because it's because it's so cool. I'm 299 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: gonna choose to believe that Prince almost ran Michael Jackson 300 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: down on a limousine. Yes, we're gonna take a quick 301 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: break to get a word from ours sponsor before we 302 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: get two more rivals. So the second big encounter between them, 303 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: or it's sort of a non encounter, is the recording 304 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: session for We Are at the World Now We Are 305 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: the World. Michael Jackson is like one of the primary 306 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: drivers of this. You know, he co wrote the song, 307 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: He's featured in the video. He's you know, literally out 308 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: front in the videos, out front. He wasn't known as 309 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: the king of pop at that point, but he is 310 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: the King of Poppy's like that, you know. And again 311 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: he has the Sergeant Pepper I would fit on, so 312 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: you feel like he actually is part of the pop 313 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: military and he's the general um or the or the yeah, 314 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: the the admiral. I think admiral would be more fitting 315 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: to him. Um. Anyway, everyone is there at the at 316 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: the We Are the World sessions. You've got Bob Dylan there, 317 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: You've got Huey Lewis. There, got Cindy Lapper Rodgers, Billy 318 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: Joel h Simon, I think Paul Simon's there, is boy 319 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: George there. I can't I'm getting that and um and 320 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: live Aid confused. Yeah, and everyone is there except Prince 321 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: and Madonna wasn't there either, But Madonna didn't get a 322 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: heart of a time, like people gave Prince a really 323 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: hard time for not being there, and like the excuse 324 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: that Prince ended up giving for not being at the 325 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: Weird the World recording session was that he was in 326 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and he got into a fight in a 327 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant with the photographer, right, with a photographer. Yes, 328 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: not that the best excuse, Not the best excuse. And 329 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: like you know, at the time, people depicted Prince as 330 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: this sort of conceded self involved jerk basically because he 331 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: wasn't involved in this altruistic project about feeding starving kids 332 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: in Africa. Said he was beating down photographers in a 333 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant, which is about as far from exactly. Maybe 334 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: he was picking up some Mexican food to take to 335 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: Africa to to feed these kids, you know, and then 336 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: he got sidetracked by this photographer. Maybe that maybe that's 337 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: what was happening. And I don't know if you've ever 338 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: seen this, I feel like somebody probably like buried this clip. Crystal. Yes, 339 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: there was a Saturday Night Live Scotch where Billy Crystal 340 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: played Prince in black Face. By the way, and uh 341 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: sang a song called I Am the World I Am 342 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: the World exactly kind of impression, and that just shows you, 343 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: like what the world was like that it was more 344 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: offensive for Prince not to sing on we Are the 345 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: World than for Billy Crystal to don blackface and make 346 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: fun of Prince, like that's that's how That's how it was. 347 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: And you know, the thing is too, is when we 348 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: look back on we Are the World. You know, at 349 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: the time it was this historic single, it was a 350 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: big deal. Now we look back on it, and you know, 351 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: the good cause and good intentions aside, people tend to 352 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: make fun of that song. It's kind of a corny song. 353 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: It kind of epitomizes this idea of like self important 354 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: pop stars who sort of self aggrandizing their own nobility, 355 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: you know, in a song. So in a way, it 356 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: like it was good for Prince in retrospect to not 357 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: be involved, because you don't see Prince standing next to 358 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: holl Of Notates and Kim Karnes singing you know, these 359 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: sort of you know, mawkish lyrics. You know, like Prince 360 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: still has some mystique from that time because of that. 361 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: And he did contribute a song to the the album 362 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: that it was on, too. It was for the tears 363 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: in your eyes. I think for the album that that 364 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: came out, that Havy of the world on it, the 365 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: lp uh, he did, you know, try to make up 366 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: for it, up for it. But at the time it 367 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: was a huge r disaster for him, and it kind 368 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: of fed into this idea after Purple Rain, you know, 369 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: the sort of backlash against Prince that he was this 370 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of like a self involved weirdo, Like that's how 371 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: people depicted him at the time, And there was still 372 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: this idea that Michael Jackson was this humanitarian, humanitarian you know, 373 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: and like just the epitome of like virtue mass entertainment. 374 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: Everyone loves Michael Jackson still. In eight five, then we 375 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: get to the third classic incident between these two and 376 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: this might be my favorite, is yes, is my favorite. 377 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: It's Michael Jackson and in Prince playing ping pong, the 378 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: single greatest ping pong matchup. This is like the Ali 379 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: Frasier of ping pong. You know, like, if there's ping 380 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: pong fans out there listening to this podcast, you can 381 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: you can tweet at us, let us know and you know, 382 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: educate us on ping pong history. I don't know of 383 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: any other ping pong matches. I can't imagine any other 384 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: ping pong match being more historic than Michael Jackson Prince. 385 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: This would have been I guess six or so. I 386 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: think so. I think I think it was that. The 387 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: version that I heard was that it was at a 388 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: the Samuel Goldman studio in West Hollywood, and uh, Prince 389 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: was finishing up under the Cherry Cherry Moon, and I 390 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: think Michael Jackson's doing Captain EO the Disney you know 391 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: clip yeah, which, by the way, m J giving Prince 392 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: shipped for Under the Cherry Moon, and like you're the 393 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: star of Captain EO. It's like, come on, glass houses, 394 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: my friend Prince is playing. It's like, hey, you know 395 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: my come you want to play? And Michael kind of 396 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: timidly goes over and said, I don't really know how 397 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: to play, but sure, Michael Jackson not much of a jock, 398 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: not even probably, I'm not that skilled princess, you know, 399 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: trying to get him to to really see, you know, 400 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: come on, Michael, get into it, come on, let's go 401 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: for you. And I imaginely Prince like hitting the ball hard. 402 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, he's not letting up now, he's spiking 403 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: it over the net. I mean, I'm sure it's bad, 404 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: and then so and then Princess Sam do you want 405 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: me to slam it? And Michael at this point drops 406 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: his paddle, apparently by mistake, and covers his hands his 407 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: face with his hands to shield himself from the ball 408 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: that Prince is about to spike. Prince spikes it and 409 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: it hits Michael Jackson squarely in the crotch. Michael, this stuff. 410 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: You can't write this stuff, man. He turns around, walks away. 411 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: Prince apparently starts, you know, dance around almost like a 412 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: peacock or like a rooster, and turns to one of 413 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: his assistant said, did you see that he's playing like 414 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: Helen Keller, which, by the way, Prince trash talk. I 415 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: gotta say, Princes, you know a little problematic there. You know, 416 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to stigmatize Helen Keller in that way, 417 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: great American. But having said that hilarious, I wonder, like, 418 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: you know, to what degree he was motivated by that 419 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: James Brown incident? Do you think that I astely think 420 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: that was in his head because he probably felt humiliated, 421 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: even though he shouldn't have been. I think he was cool, 422 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: but he might have felt humiliated and like, this is 423 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: my chance to literally hit Michael Jackson in the balls. Well, 424 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: you know how how Michael Jackson got revenged? Right? I 425 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: guess after the game was over, he went over and 426 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: started flirting with um with Prince's girlfriend at the time, 427 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: Shrylyn Fenn Uh some interview that I think, Oh yeah, 428 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: that's why. Oh my god, I guess it was when 429 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: he was dating her. UM And there's some interview that 430 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: Prince's recording engineer game. He said that was sort of 431 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: the you know how how Michael got got his his revenge. 432 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: After that, Prince get mad about that. I mean, history 433 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: has not recorded his reaction to that, but apparently a 434 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: lot of Prince's associates said that. I don't know. I 435 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: think the Princess drummer Bobby Z gave a an interview 436 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: where he said that, um, Michael would come to Paisley 437 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: Park and they played a little basketball. I mean, there 438 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: were apparently that that's what he said. I mean, I 439 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: don't know how true that is, but there have been 440 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: instances cited interviews where they had other athletics. Because Prince 441 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: was a great basketball player. Absolutely, I wonder, like I 442 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: just I can't imagine Michael being a good basketball player, 443 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: but he could have been. He was good. I mean, 444 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: he's obviously actual. He knows how to move his body, 445 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: and I mean I made that joke about him that 446 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: being a great athlete. He's obviously a great athlete though, 447 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: because he's a great dancer. He's one of the best 448 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: dancers in pop history. Well, you know, you know the 449 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: great story about Michael dancing. I guess it was when 450 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: they were preparing for the This Is It tour in 451 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: um in two thousand nine. Kenny Ortega I think, went 452 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: and had a meeting with him, and because Michael kept 453 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: wanting to change, he was like, man, he kept having 454 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: all these ideas for the show that he wanted to add. 455 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: He one to add all these little vignettes and stuff, 456 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: and he wasn't sleeping. And Michael was saying like, well, 457 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: you know, I can't sleep because God, God gives me 458 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: is at night, he channels through me at night. And uh. 459 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: And Kenny's like, well, yeah, great, Michael, but but can 460 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: you please just give it a rest, like we we 461 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: got to get the show on the road. And Michael said, no, no, 462 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: I I can't rest because if I don't God's gonna 463 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: give these ideas the Prince. I think that proved to 464 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: be the case ultimately for those two. So we get 465 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: to seven, and this is like the fourth kind of 466 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: great story about Michael Jackson and Prince intersecting, which is 467 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: that Michael Jackson he's about to put up Bad, the 468 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: follow up to The Thriller, and he wants to record 469 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,239 Speaker 1: the title track as a duet with Prince, which you 470 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: think of that. You think of Prince and Michael Jackson 471 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: on the same song in on Paper, You're like, where 472 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: do I take this and get my like one billion 473 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: dollar pay out? I mean, this is just like incredible, 474 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: incredible idea. Everyone would love it. The song is perfect 475 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: for it. It's a showdown. It's like, yeah, you get 476 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: to be tough in this song. It's a really good 477 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: song too, And you're like, who wouldn't love that? You know, 478 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: that is Alien versus Predator, that is you know, uh, 479 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: that's Hobbs and Shaw, that's every you know, that's every 480 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: great duo coming together. But Prince declines he really didn't 481 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: like the opening line you're but his mine, and he said, 482 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: there's an interview with Chris Rock I think in then 483 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: he's just saying, like, you know, who's going to sing 484 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: that to who? Because you're not saying that to me, 485 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: and I'm not singing that to you. And I think 486 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: it's hilarious that Prince much. I know that Prince is 487 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: like one of the great sort of like gender bending 488 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: rock stars pop stars of all time. That he was 489 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: a guy that sort of subverted the idea of like 490 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: traditional masculinity in music. And you know, he wasn't afraid 491 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: to be to appear androgynous or even feminine, you know, 492 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: in his public persona, that he was fearless in that way. 493 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: And he did that at a time you know, well 494 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: before that was sort of in fashion and pop music. 495 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: I mean famously, he had that tour opening for the 496 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones and like one where people were like throwing 497 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: garbage at him literally because they didn't know what to 498 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: make of him. I think it's funny that he would 499 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: give such like a traditionally macho answer to that that 500 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: he was like afraid macho? Was it just ego? Is 501 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: it just I never thought of it as like a 502 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: sexual thing. I just thought of it as like, you know, 503 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: you're he doesn't want someone to say that you're you're 504 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: better than me, or but he wouldn't want to say 505 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: that to Michael Jackson. No, either wanted he didn't want 506 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: to be in the dominant role either. I was assumed 507 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: that it was sort of like a macho thing that 508 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: he didn't want. He didn't want it to be implied 509 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: that he was like wanting Michael Jackson's butt, or that 510 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson would want his butt like that. To me, 511 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: that's how I read that, but I could be wrong. 512 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: It probably was an ego thing that he was not 513 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: going to appear on Michael Jackson's record, that he wasn't 514 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: going to help move copies of Bad. He offered him 515 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: another song he was He was offered him when You 516 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: Love to Love Me. It was like an updated demo 517 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: of one of his own songs, and Michael passed on that, 518 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: and apparently, uh to be how Prince was. He rerecorded 519 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: Bad and sent him a version of Bad back to 520 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: Michael after all this went down, just to be like no, yeah, 521 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,479 Speaker 1: that's just how it should be. This is like the 522 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: final like you know, kiss off. I didn't hear that story. 523 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: I like that story all right hand. We'll be right 524 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: back with more rivals, you know, it's weird. I mean, 525 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: we've we've gone this deep into this episode talking about 526 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson and Prince without talking about the elephant in 527 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: the room with Michael Jackson, which is he achieved the 528 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: level of fame so great that it made him greater 529 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: than human to a lot of the people that loved him, 530 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: and it just allowed him to act at a level 531 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: of like impunity, uh that the average person wouldn't be 532 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: able to do so, Like that's why he was able 533 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: to convince parents for a stance to let their kids 534 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: sleep at his house because this was Michael Jackson. This 535 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: was a person that had been in their lives for decades, 536 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: someone that they loved, so you trusted him, even though 537 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: you would never trust any other adult man, you know, 538 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 1: to host your kid at your house. And how that 539 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: connects with Prince. I just think it's interesting because they 540 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: have two very different approaches to fame. That Michael Jackson 541 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: at his peak was someone who was very invested in 542 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: making himself as huge as possible at all times. I 543 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: don't know if you've heard this story, but like when 544 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: he was making bad he put a piece of paper 545 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: on his bathroom window where it's aid a hundred million. 546 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: It was his goal to sell a hundred million copies 547 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: of Bad And you think of that and you're like, 548 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, the normal average pop star, you know, who 549 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: had an album like Thriller or any other sort of 550 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: mega selling album, I think it'd be I think a 551 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: normal person would look at look at that and go, 552 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: this is a fluke. And I think most people would 553 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: say I can never replicate that, you know, it would 554 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: be insane for me to try. So what I'm gonna 555 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: do instead is I'm just gonna make music that appeals 556 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: to me. And if I follow my own path, then 557 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: my core fans, the people who really love me, they'll 558 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: stick with me. And yeah, I'm not gonna sell sixty 559 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: million records again, but no one's gonna sell sixty million 560 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: records more than once. Like I've done it once, I 561 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: kind of have a blank check now to do whatever 562 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: I want. The Prince did well, I was gonna say 563 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: to me, that is the sort of crux of this 564 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: ravelry and what it signifies two different approaches the pop stardom. 565 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: Are you gonna just try to be as big as 566 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: you can be at all times, or are you gonna 567 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: be the person who becomes a superstar, and then it's like, 568 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: now I'm going to be a great artist, and I'm 569 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: gonna focus on that. Because if you look at Prince's 570 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: career in the eighties after Purple Rain, he puts that 571 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: around the world in a day, puts it out pretty 572 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: soon after Purple Rain. If it was a year, it 573 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: might have been like less than the calendar year it was, 574 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: but it was very close, you know, Whereas Michael Jackson 575 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: waited five years to make Bad because he was I 576 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: think he spent like two years and like two million 577 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: dollars making that record because he was trying to make hits, 578 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: and by the way, he was very successful at making hits. 579 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: That record had five number one singles and sold eight 580 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: million records. It's the first record to have five number 581 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: ones on exactly, and by any standard, that is a 582 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: blockbuster record. But like it was as big as Thriller, 583 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: so public perception and even I think in Michael Jackson's 584 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: own mind that record was considered a failure, which is 585 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: an insane thing to do. Prince is like, I'm not 586 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: going to try to make Purple Rain again. I might 587 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: even gonna try to make pop hits in the style 588 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: of the songs that have been on my previous two records. 589 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go into this sort of like psychedelic, weirdo 590 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: experimental phase where I make around the world in a 591 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: day and then he makes Parade with is a brilliant record, 592 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: but like is so unusual and like anti pop in 593 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, even though Kiss was the big 594 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: single off that record, and it's like one of the 595 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: greatest Prince songs ever, one of the most beloved hits. 596 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: It was a number one pop hit, although when you 597 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: listen to it, it sounds like a demo that someone recorded. 598 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: It's so spare and so unusual. And then you know, 599 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: the same year that Michael Jackson puts out Bad Prince 600 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: puts out The Sign of the Times, which is this 601 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: double record ambitious social commentary. On that record, there's like 602 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: intensely sort of autobiographical songs on there. There's like songs 603 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: like I Wish I was Your Girlfriend, which is like 604 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: this sort of psycho sexual drama going on. You know, 605 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: just very unusual, very ambitious record. Of course, after that 606 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: he did like the Batman soundtrack, which kind of throws 607 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: this theory into whack. But I think if you look 608 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: at ambitious pop stars all that. You know, whether you're 609 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: talking about Janelle Monet, you're talking about Frank Ocean, they're 610 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: following the Prince model. Like Prince kind of invented the 611 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: modern pop star in the mid eighties, although at the 612 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: time those decisions that he was making were often maligned, 613 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: and Michael Jackson was like the mainstream pop star. He 614 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: was the beloved guy, and he was the one that 615 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: people thought was doing what you should be doing. Although 616 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: we look back at that now and it's sort of like, 617 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of weird that he was doing that, and 618 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: maybe he was compensating for horrible things in his personal 619 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: life by doing that. Well, so I mean it's it's 620 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: you reference in your book too. It's not cool to 621 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: set out to be an insider, you know, I mean 622 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was. I mean, you couldn't think of a 623 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: better example of what is mainstream music industry in you know, 624 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: the eighties and early nineties, and Michael Jackson and he 625 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: was the cool guy in high school. He was the 626 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: one who was you know, born to do this seemingly perfect. 627 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we know now that that's very much 628 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: not the case, but you know, and then someone would 629 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: Prince who did it all in his bedroom as a kid, 630 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: and you know we had trash thrown at him. I 631 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: mean it was just, you know, the polar opposite from 632 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: Michael's experien are it's of being you know, literally brought 633 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: up by Diana Ross, you know, a huge star um 634 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: and and it's it's interesting now about just sort of 635 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: more contemporary artists now looking back about their careers aside 636 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: from all of the reputation Michael has from all the 637 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: the court cases in the HBO documentary, just the artistic 638 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: route of kind of doing your own thing and be 639 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: I feel like Prince has been sort of embraced almost 640 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: like David Bowie is being kind of the patron saint 641 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: of weird and like doing your own thing, expressing yourself 642 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: in whatever way you want, like as a quintessential artist. 643 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: I feel like, I feel like if you are a 644 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: recording artist, you Prince is one of the people you 645 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: look to as a model, Like that's what you want 646 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: to have, where you can have massive popular success that 647 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: affords you this space to be your own person and 648 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: to follow your own path you wanted to make art. 649 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a famous story Michael Jackson called up 650 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney and said, you know, do you want to 651 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: make hits? And I think that the choice of that, 652 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: we're not you want to write songs? Not you do 653 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: you want to make some hits? And I think that's 654 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: very telling. Michael Jackson wanted to make hits, Prince wanted 655 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to make art, I think, And I mean that's just 656 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: we want to make hits and and art. I think 657 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: you I think Prince wanted to do everything. I think 658 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: what Prince did is that he realized that because he 659 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: had hits, it created a space for him to do 660 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do. It's like Michael Jackson looked 661 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: at Thriller and said, I need more of that. Prince 662 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: looked at Purple Rain and said, I don't necessarily want 663 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: to be as huge as this album has made me, 664 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: but I can use the capital from this to kind 665 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: of do whatever I want, Like I can build Paisley Park, 666 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: for instance. Like that was a direct result really from 667 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: him being so fantastically successful and rich. You know that 668 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: he could build his own compound, and he could do 669 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: it in his hometown. He didn't have to do it 670 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: in la or New York. He could build his Wonderland, 671 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: his Zanna Do in Minneapolis and kind of create his 672 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: own world, and it created space for him to make 673 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: the music that he wanted to make. I want to 674 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: go back to something you said before, because I think 675 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: it's a really good analogy. You compared to Michael Jackson 676 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: to like the popular kid in school, and like the 677 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: cliche about those people is always that they ad just 678 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: or that they have a faciite odd of perfection and 679 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: and and and popularity that is hiding something darker, and 680 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: that there's something that that is sort of compensating for. 681 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: And when I look at this rivalry, I really kind 682 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: of think of it in those terms that I think 683 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: Prince was able to live honestly in a way in 684 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: his art in the eighties that Michael Jackson wasn't able 685 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: to do that. I think Michael Jackson was creating sort 686 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: of a version of himself everyone could love in the eighties, 687 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: whereas Prince was someone who this is who I am. 688 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: This is who I am, And I have contradictions, and 689 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: I have eccentricities, and there's things about me that you're 690 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: gonna love, and there's gonna be there's things about me 691 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: that you're not gonna get but this is who I am, 692 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: and I'm unapologetic about it. If you conduct your career 693 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: like that, in the short term, they're going to be 694 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: consequences of that, And for Prince there were. And this 695 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: is something I think again that gets forgotten about Prince, 696 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 1: you know, in light of his death, because Prince now 697 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: is again I think, one of the most revered, if 698 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: not the most revered musician of his generation. I mean, 699 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: everyone loves Prince, everyone respects his legacy. You know, no 700 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: one's gonna say anything bad about Prince, you know, at 701 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: this point. But there were long stretches of his career 702 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: where he was questioned, he was maligned, he was ignored. 703 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: Especially in the last half of his career. He put 704 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: a ton of music that people didn't really care about 705 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: it at all. I mean, it was my first impression 706 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: of Prince growing up in you know, the mid the 707 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: late nineties was you know, the artists formerly known as 708 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: print It as a punch line, really and I mean 709 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: he didn't have a top forty hit after, I think, 710 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: and so, you know, growing up in the sticks out 711 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: in in you know, New England, where weren't a lot 712 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: of record storts and stuff, I mean, if he wasn't 713 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: playing in the radio, you didn't really hear it. So 714 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: I didn't hear a lot of Prince music unless it 715 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: was at like, you know, a wedding or a dance 716 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: or something, and it was always sort of in retrospect, 717 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: played alongside like a Rick James song or like love 718 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: Shack or something like that. So it was it was interesting, 719 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of my first impressions of him being this kind 720 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: of like strange, you know. I remember hearing Dan rather 721 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: like talk about like, you know, the artist Princess now 722 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: changed his amul unpronounceable symbol and just thinking what that 723 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: was this, which a lot of people laughed about that. 724 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: But there was also tied in with him wanting to 725 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: have creative independence from his record label. He was protesting 726 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: what he felt were unfair treatment, that he wanted to 727 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: own his own art basically, So even that was sort 728 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: of tied up in his sort of artistic journey at 729 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: the time, and all these things that made him difficult 730 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 1: when he was alive or alienated him from the public 731 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: at various points in his career, we now look back 732 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: on it and we're like, that's what makes him so cool. 733 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: It's like This is what's so great about him that 734 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: he was always his own man. He didn't care what 735 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: the consequence, where he didn't appear to care anyway, and 736 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: he was able to kind of win out in the end, 737 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: whereas Michael Jackson. There's this sort of weird undercurrent now 738 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: to everything that he did because you feel that Michael 739 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: Jackson was able to do these things because of the 740 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: public uh status that he had, his celebrity, and even 741 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: if he didn't know about it as a fan, there's 742 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: still some sort of connection that you feel to this. 743 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: And it's the most extreme example of it, maybe, but 744 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: it's a very kind of disturbing commentary on like the 745 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: cost of celebrity and our culture belief between the joy 746 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: we feel from the music and the whole the repulsion 747 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: we feel for what he apparently did is just so 748 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: huge that it's hard to wrap our minds, right. I 749 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: think that's the reason that it was just so you know, compartmentalized. 750 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,479 Speaker 1: So if we're getting down to like making a case 751 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: for each person, is there a case you can make 752 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: from Michael Jackson at this point or is he just 753 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: automatically canceled? Do we just declare it's almost two I 754 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: mean his music and influence is part of the pop DNA. 755 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: I mean I think that you can't you can't turn 756 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: that back. I think, I mean, look at so many 757 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: stars from Britney Spears, Bruno Mars, just Temberl. I mean, Jesus, 758 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: you just keep going. Uh, it's that is tough. And 759 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: then plus our own personal memories. I mean, everybody has 760 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: at least one Michael Jackson's song that makes you think 761 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: of a personal moment, and it you know, it's it's 762 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: it's a wedding, it's a school day, it's it's this 763 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: or that, and it's inextricably bound with popular culture. And 764 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: I I obviously, yes, now it's very very tainted. Um, 765 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't I don't really know how to reconcile. I 766 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: don't think there is a simple answer. Yeah, and I 767 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think in practical terms, like 768 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: you said, he is so ingrained in popular music that 769 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: if you're going to cancel Michael Jackson, do you cancel 770 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: Bruno Mars, do you cancel Justin Timberlake? Do you cancel 771 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: any of the dozens of pop stars that have made 772 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: sound alike songs to Michael Jackson. That a clear lineage 773 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: to what he's doing the weekend, you know, all those 774 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: weekend hits that sound like Michael Jackson songs. I think 775 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: what you do is you just make sure that you 776 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: don't whitewash the story. You know. It's like this guy, 777 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: he's a part of America, he's a part of American culture, 778 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: but we also know other parts of him and that 779 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: should be also represented, and when we talk about him 780 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: that we don't just bury the other parts of it. 781 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, it's it's sort of easier 782 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: just to just pretend that this person was never a 783 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: part of our history. But that would be a lie. 784 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: You just have to try to tell the full history 785 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: with someone like that. If we talk about Prince, that 786 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: the pro Prince argument, I mean, we've kind of already 787 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: made it. I mean again, I feel like he is 788 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: the prototype of the modern pop star, or at least 789 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: the idealized version of like what every pop star in 790 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: their mind wants to be. If Michael Jackson won the 791 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, contemporary cultural influence argument of you know, eighties 792 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: and nineties, I I think that Prince will absolutely win 793 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: the long game for long term cultural influence that you know, 794 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: so many artists, the ones you mentioned, I mean, Money Outcast, 795 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: Frank Ocean all seemed to be following in that, you know, 796 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: in that more greater creative freedom, just sort of following 797 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: your own muse sort of type. And also, and maybe 798 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: this is because I live in you know, a coastal city. 799 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 1: Maybe this is age group. I don't know. I feel 800 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: like I don't know many younger people that are grown 801 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: up saying, you know, oh my god, I want to 802 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: be I'm just like Michael. I love Michael Jackson. I 803 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: but you see Prince. I mean there's you know, my 804 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: cousins or young kids have like Prince patches on their jeans, 805 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: jackets going to high school and stuff. And he against 806 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: following in sort of the Bowie mode of like, no, 807 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: it's cool to be different, it's cool to be who 808 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: I am, it's cool to be unique. And I think 809 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: that that message is going to carry on forever. I 810 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: think that that's really something that's gonna I mean, it's 811 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: a crude way. I have been age really well, and 812 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: may I think so too. I mean, it's interesting. I 813 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: think I think what Michael Jackson Prince did is that 814 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: I think they both try to ignore genre tags. Especially 815 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,479 Speaker 1: the type of genre distinctions that get imposed on black 816 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: artists that like, if you're black, you're automatically grouped into 817 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: like the R and B category, And especially in the eighties, 818 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: and like how Michael Jackson in Prints both made overt 819 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: moves to making like rock songs, you know, like Michael 820 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: Jackson would beat it, you know, having Eddie Van Hill 821 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: and play on that song. I mean, that's like a 822 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: rock and roll song, you know, by any definition, Like 823 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: if if a white person were singing that song, it 824 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: would have been playing on f M rock station in 825 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: the in the eighties. Same with Prince, like Let's Go 826 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: Crazy is unquestionably a rock and roll songs guitar songs ever. 827 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: But I think Prince was the most successful at being 828 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: an artist that would not be confined by any classification whatsoever. 829 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: That and like when he died, a genre anything, and 830 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: what was amazing after he died. You know, a lot 831 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: of great rock stars and pop stars have passed away 832 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: in the last several years, but with Prince even more 833 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: than David Bowie. I think Bowie had a similar sort 834 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,839 Speaker 1: of reach across many different demographic groups. But you really 835 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: saw all kinds of people paying tribute to Prince and 836 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: kind of paying tribute to him in their own way. 837 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: Like there were guitar aficionados who worshiped him as a 838 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: guitar player, you know, there were sould music officionados who 839 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: worshiped him as like one of the great like purveyors 840 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: of of R and B and soul music in history. 841 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: There were pop fans talking about him as a pop 842 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,280 Speaker 1: star that you know, all the way down the line, 843 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: and it just showed the many, many different ways that 844 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: you could appreciate him and have an entry point into 845 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: his music, even though he was working at times in 846 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: a very sort of narrow way. It seemed like during 847 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 1: his career, like in a way that it seemed almost 848 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: selfish at that he wasn't trying to why aren't you 849 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: making pop hits? Why don't you making these mass appeal records? 850 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: And he's like, no, I'm gonna do my own thing. 851 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: And then you know, thirty years later, people look back 852 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: and they go, he kind of did a little bit 853 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: of everything. So it's like, I really like this record. 854 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: I like this record and it kind of has a 855 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: little bit for everybody, which is kind of amazing how 856 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: that worked out. Um, But yeah, it's the wisdom of 857 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: following your own mus versus trying to please everybody, you know. 858 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: I think that's what this story is ultimately. And I 859 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: also feel like, you know, if we're going to make 860 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: a case for like them coexisting, it's how their stories 861 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: complement each other and that they each other inspire each other, 862 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: and that they came from you know. Again, they were 863 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: very similar beginnings, very similar beginnings. They went in very 864 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: different ways, but they kind of showed the full spectrum 865 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 1: of how you could act as an artist and as 866 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: a human. Dan as he it's a human being, uh, 867 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: in the best ways, in the most monstrous ways, the 868 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: full range of human expression a man. Well, it's always 869 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: fun talking with you, Jordan. Talking about Robbert is always 870 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: fun talking Thank of you at home, Thank you all 871 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: for listening to this episode, and we'll talk to you 872 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: guys next week. Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. 873 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown. 874 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: The supervising producers are Taylor Scogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm 875 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: Jordan's roun Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what 876 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: you heard, please subscribe to leave us a review. For 877 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: more podcast for my heart Radio, visit the i heart 878 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or ever you listen to your 879 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows.