Speaker 1: I'm very, very focused on a resolution and on restoration,
Speaker 1: and restoration is something we need to do on an
Speaker 1: individual and mass social scale. And that's the only way
Speaker 1: we can now be helpful is to push for more
Speaker 1: love and grace in the world, because we are only
Speaker 1: going to continue to see a rise of evil if
Speaker 1: we are contributing to animosity in any way.
Speaker 2: This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
Speaker 2: your host, Meghan Devine. This week on the show, Jamila
Speaker 2: Jamil on looking back at past versions of yourself plus
Speaker 2: what cancel culture costs us. Stay tuned. There is so
Speaker 2: much fascinating territory coming up right after this first break.
Speaker 2: Before we get started, one quick note. While we cover
Speaker 2: a lot of emotional relutional territory in our time here
Speaker 2: to get whither. This show is not a substitute for
Speaker 2: skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or for
Speaker 2: professionals to provision related to your work. Hey friends, So,
Speaker 2: at first look, the subject of this week's show might
Speaker 2: seem like a stretch, but really it couldn't be more perfect.
Speaker 2: The tagline for this show is conversations with interesting people
Speaker 2: about difficult things. How we talk about difficult things, how
Speaker 2: we relate to each other, how we navigate conflict, and
Speaker 2: our needs for connection. Like that's everything. In a lot
Speaker 2: of ways, how we communicate is more important than the
Speaker 2: thing we're trying to say. Jamila Jamil is an actress.
Speaker 2: You might know her from the Good Place or legendary
Speaker 2: or she Hulk. She's the host of the popular podcast Eyeway,
Speaker 2: which explores mental health and relationships and chronic illness and
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other things. She's the host of
Speaker 2: the very funny, very not safe for work podcast Bad Dates.
Speaker 2: And she's an outspoken advocate on a big range of
Speaker 2: important issues, which makes her a frequent target for criticism,
Speaker 2: which we will get into a little later. I first
Speaker 2: started following Jamila Jamil a few years ago because of
Speaker 2: her comments on how we treat female celebrities. She broke
Speaker 2: things down so clearly, showing the very predictable ways we
Speaker 2: idolize and then demonize female celebrities, tearing them to shreds
Speaker 2: and the tabloids and on social media for reasons that
Speaker 2: are often entirely made up or taken out of context
Speaker 2: in order to generate outrage, which generates clicks. That pattern
Speaker 2: of adoration decimation is fascinating and horrifying once you start
Speaker 2: looking for it. It's a pattern that shows up in
Speaker 2: the ways that we talk about each other and to
Speaker 2: each other too, not just celebrities, especially when emotions run
Speaker 2: really high. Now, Jamila is one of the few people
Speaker 2: I have seen pointing at how we use our words
Speaker 2: and what that sort of vitriolic cancel culture communication style
Speaker 2: does to us, What it does to our own minds
Speaker 2: and nervous systems, what it does to our personal relationships,
Speaker 2: and the world that kind of communication creates as we
Speaker 2: work to build the world we want personally, collectively looking
Speaker 2: at the harm we cause through the words we say
Speaker 2: and how we say them like that is such a
Speaker 2: powerful thing to do. Now, we cover a lot in
Speaker 2: this episode, so be sure to listen for the questions
Speaker 2: to carry with you at the end of the show
Speaker 2: if you need some, like what do I do with
Speaker 2: all of this information? I also want to hear your
Speaker 2: thoughts about the conversation coming up with Jimmy Lajimil, So
Speaker 2: leave a review of the show on your favorite platform
Speaker 2: to tell me what you learned or the questions that
Speaker 2: you have from this episode, or you can tag me
Speaker 2: on social media at Refuge and Grief. Okay, let's get
Speaker 2: to it with my guest, Jimmy Lejimir. I'm ridiculously happy
Speaker 2: to have you here with me today. Like, there are
Speaker 2: so many places that we could begin today, Like today,
Speaker 2: I want to explore being human, which is what a
Speaker 2: strange thing to do, but like I want to talk
Speaker 2: about the ways that we talk to each other, because
Speaker 2: I feel like you've been bringing that up a lot,
Speaker 2: and I really.
Speaker 1: Love this about you.
Speaker 2: So recently you said I'm in a period of transition
Speaker 2: at the moment, trying to figure out how to show
Speaker 2: more grace and more hope in humanity and in people.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me what you mean by that.
Speaker 1: I think the last three years have revealed a lot
Speaker 1: about our society. And when I got into social justice
Speaker 1: at nineteen years old, you know, we were just so
Speaker 1: used to not being heard and so we used to
Speaker 1: have to scream. And so then when I kind of
Speaker 1: came into a position in social justice where I was
Speaker 1: also on one of the biggest TV shows around at
Speaker 1: the time, I was still screaming, but people were at
Speaker 1: listening to me, right, and so I didn't really need
Speaker 1: to be screaming I didn't need to be aggressive or
Speaker 1: shocking anymore. But I think I wasn't really aware of
Speaker 1: my own position and platform and power because it had
Speaker 1: happened so fast out of nowhere, and so we were
Speaker 1: in a culture, especially amongst liberals, of just being so
Speaker 1: tired and so angry that things were taking so long
Speaker 1: to get to a place of just basic equity. That
Speaker 1: my frustration was pouring out of me, and that impacted
Speaker 1: the way that I was delivering my frustration rather than
Speaker 1: through only fact and empathy for those who didn't understand me,
Speaker 1: which is hard to muster, you know, when you've been
Speaker 1: frustrated for a long time. My communication was what you
Speaker 1: would call like causing, according to like Martain Rosenberg, like
Speaker 1: violent communication is you did this like fuck you your assholes,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so in doing so, that seemed to
Speaker 1: garner me's support from other people who also felt pain
Speaker 1: and frustration and exhaustion, and there was a kind of
Speaker 1: hyper normalization of us speaking to each other that way,
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that what I was doing was
Speaker 1: contributing to what would grow to be a very fraught
Speaker 1: landscape of communication socially, politically, and over the pandemic. I
Speaker 1: took a step back and saw the way that people
Speaker 1: were talking to each other, even very young people, and
Speaker 1: the language they were using, and I was like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: this isn't going to get us anywhere. And I realized
Speaker 1: that I'm only now talking to the people who already
Speaker 1: agree with me and already feel the pain and frustration
Speaker 1: and empathy that I feel. And I'm not really reaching
Speaker 1: out now to anyone because they presume I don't like them,
Speaker 1: or that I don't think they're intelligent, or I don't
Speaker 1: think they're ademable because of the stances that I take,
Speaker 1: and I'm now an unhelpful presence. And the pandemic was
Speaker 1: kind of like cruelty on steroids in the way that
Speaker 1: all of us spoke to each other. And that was
Speaker 1: when I kind of took a back seat and started
Speaker 1: to become quieter. I started to listen more and pay
Speaker 1: attention and think, how fuck the kids are watching us,
Speaker 1: and now this is how they're going to talk to
Speaker 1: each other, not online but in the school in person.
Speaker 1: What am I going to do to I guess it's
Speaker 1: like a carbon footprint, isn't It's like, how do I
Speaker 1: how do I tone for anything that I would have
Speaker 1: helped contribute as to their impatient and graceless way that
Speaker 1: I would speak to the people that were oppressing me.
Speaker 1: And I know it's not popular to talk now about
Speaker 1: offering any kind of grace or empathy or understanding to
Speaker 1: those who are either sitting by while you're harmed, or
Speaker 1: who are participating in actively, you know, benefiting from harming
Speaker 1: people like you, But it is sort of the only
Speaker 1: way that we're ever going to make any actual progress
Speaker 1: is by appealing to those have power over us and
Speaker 1: getting them to empathize with us. And so I guess
Speaker 1: I've been doing a very public journey via my podcast
Speaker 1: and my Instagram of trying to shift the way that
Speaker 1: I talk, shift my understanding, and remind people that we
Speaker 1: are all a product of our environment. We are all
Speaker 1: a product of some form of trauma or fear, and
Speaker 1: that where most of our behavior on all political sides
Speaker 1: is coming from is trauma and fear. It's not all
Speaker 1: just ignorance. We always conflate ignorance and evil, and some
Speaker 1: people find me frustrating a week in some way for
Speaker 1: taking this stance, which is fine, But I feel the
Speaker 1: most certain of anything I've ever done. That leading people
Speaker 1: to a path of actual unity rather than any kind
Speaker 1: of vengeance is the only way out of this mess
Speaker 1: and the only way to really help the next generation.
Speaker 1: So that's where I'm at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my favorite things about you is your
Speaker 2: willingness to taggle really complex issues here. I want to
Speaker 2: pull out just a couple of things here. So that frustration,
Speaker 2: that irritation, that impatience. I think that's something that so
Speaker 2: many people feel like things have been screwed up for
Speaker 2: so long. There's this like pent up rage and print
Speaker 2: up frustration and back. You know, five years ago, ten
Speaker 2: years ago, fifteen years ago, we didn't have the public
Speaker 2: square that social media is. We didn't have that kind
Speaker 2: of visibility that social media is, and so you couldn't
Speaker 2: see the impact of less than skilled delivery of frustration.
Speaker 2: You couldn't see the impact of harm in your words,
Speaker 2: the way that we can see now. And I think
Speaker 2: that there was a little bit more solidarity in what
Speaker 2: you just described early on. I think about zene culture
Speaker 2: right like back in the nineties, like, yes, let's talk
Speaker 2: about our frustration and become a unified force in targeting
Speaker 2: harm coming at us from others. But that world no
Speaker 2: longer exists. It's changed.
Speaker 1: It's also the added thing of being a woman and
Speaker 1: never being heard anywhere your whole life, and then twenty
Speaker 1: fifteen happens, and it's the me too movement. And suddenly
Speaker 1: after especially if you're like a person in the public eye,
Speaker 1: after decades of us only ever being asked, so what
Speaker 1: are you eat in a day, suddenly we're being asked,
Speaker 1: so what do you think of these huge, complicated, historical
Speaker 1: social infrastructures that have harmed people like you? And unpack
Speaker 1: your trauma and bleed out your trauma so that we
Speaker 1: can believe you that you have a right to speak.
Speaker 1: So qualify your right to speak by telling us everything
Speaker 1: personal about you that then will be used against you later.
Speaker 1: And so it was a chaotic mess, like we didn't
Speaker 1: have practice. I didn't have practice of having this megaphone.
Speaker 1: But I also knew that, like, okay, I have the
Speaker 1: megaphone now it feels callous to put it down when
Speaker 1: I have an opportunity, and I know that I'm like
Speaker 1: a strong communicator, and I know I've seen myself be
Speaker 1: able to get shit done and change policy or get
Speaker 1: myself to Congress or you know, make an impact on people.
Speaker 1: So I just felt like it was my responsibility. But
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. I wasn't media trained,
Speaker 1: I'm not a politician. And while I don't regret the
Speaker 1: sentiment of what I've been trying to do, and I
Speaker 1: don't regret the positive impact I've had, I definitely feel
Speaker 1: very comfortable being accountable for the messy part of that.
Speaker 1: And I never think it's too late to change. I
Speaker 1: never think it's too late, because otherwise, what is the
Speaker 1: point of activism If we don't believe fundamentally in the
Speaker 1: change of human beings, in individual and social mass social change, Literally,
Speaker 1: what is social justice work? So I think, like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know what, I can recognize I haven't been perfectly
Speaker 1: helpful all the time. How do I remedy that? And
Speaker 1: how do I bring everyone along for the lesson? Because
Speaker 1: we demonize learning so much, we demonize mistakes so much,
Speaker 1: even though there's such a compulsory part of growth, And
Speaker 1: so if other people aren't willing to own up to
Speaker 1: their mistakes, I am, and they can just quietly privately
Speaker 1: join my journey because I've got nothing to lose, because
Speaker 1: I'm so deeply disinterested in other people's approval.
Speaker 2: There's something so powerful about being willing to go first,
Speaker 2: to be visible in the process that you are living in.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've been really open that at various times
Speaker 2: in your life, the things being thrown back at you
Speaker 2: did actual damage, right, Like this was from what I understand, like,
Speaker 2: this is part of why you started really talking about
Speaker 2: mental health issues and started talking about shame and started
Speaker 2: talking about the things that we do, particularly to women.
Speaker 2: Part of that was understanding what this vitriol did to
Speaker 2: you and seeing what that did to the people around you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you get dehumanized, very hard to stay
Speaker 1: capable of never dehumanizing anyone else. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: sort of it's a it's a trauma loop. And so
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing increasingly in society that I don't think
Speaker 1: I've been a part of is the last few years
Speaker 1: of like cruel and deliberate dehumanizing. I was just pissed
Speaker 1: off and speaking in a callous and sometimes rude way.
Speaker 1: I think you know when I called is more than
Speaker 1: a shit stains smeared across our country. I don't think
Speaker 1: I moved any great political needle. I was angry, but
Speaker 1: I also wasn't picking someone less powerful than me, and
Speaker 1: I wasn't I wasn't trying to like harm him, but
Speaker 1: it was still a rude and embarrassing thing to say.
Speaker 1: And I regret stooping to his low because that's how
Speaker 1: he communicates with other people in an unkind way. And
Speaker 1: I took the vitriol and I spewed it back, and
Speaker 1: that just creates a cycle of vitriol. Yeah, and what
Speaker 1: we're seeing now is just like an like a really
Speaker 1: odd comfort with dehumanizing each other, leading to it becoming
Speaker 1: easier and easier to do that. And we're seeing younger
Speaker 1: and younger people capable of it before their brains are
Speaker 1: fully formed. And that's really dangerous because the part of
Speaker 1: our brain that has empathy we can switch off. We
Speaker 1: do it every time we walk past a homeless person
Speaker 1: that we don't stop to help and get housing. We
Speaker 1: do it every time we scroll past after we've seen
Speaker 1: a terrible fire or a terrible earthquake in the world.
Speaker 1: If we were constantly giving out our empathy all the time,
Speaker 1: Clementine Morgan talks about this amazingly that like, you know,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be able to survive if we were constantly
Speaker 1: engaged in our empathy, and so you can choose when
Speaker 1: to switch it off. And we are teaching very young
Speaker 1: people who haven't yet neurologically fully formed, to switch it
Speaker 1: off far more frequently than is actually appropriate, which is
Speaker 1: going to lead to a desensitiz and increasingly desensitized, miserable
Speaker 1: and lonely generation. And I've always cared most about the kids,
Speaker 1: and that's what a lot of my diet work was,
Speaker 1: protecting the kids from diet culture and fat phobia. And
Speaker 1: I have social responsibility as an adult who can see
Speaker 1: it now and can see what it's doing to people
Speaker 1: my age and older, to try to raise the alarm
Speaker 1: about what our collective behavior is doing to them because
Speaker 1: they are innocent bystanders and all of this.
Speaker 2: Do you know the term process conversation? Hey, Before we
Speaker 2: get back to this episode, we have been talking about
Speaker 2: how we talk about things. Figuring out what to say
Speaker 2: to somebody when you need support or more space, or
Speaker 2: you need to clarify a boundary. That stuff is not easy.
Speaker 2: If you want some help figuring out what to say
Speaker 2: and how to say it, come chat with me once
Speaker 2: a month live Q and a clinic. You can come
Speaker 2: ask your questions on grief and love and relationships and
Speaker 2: communication skills. You can ask for a script that you
Speaker 2: can carry with you into a conversation that you really
Speaker 2: need to have but you've been avoiding or dreading because
Speaker 2: you don't know what to say. Come join me once
Speaker 2: a month, live Q and a clinic. All of the
Speaker 2: details are at patreon dot com, backslash Megan Divine, or
Speaker 2: you can click the link in the show notes. Process
Speaker 2: conversations are the conversations that we have around how we're
Speaker 2: talking to each other instead of what we're talking about. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: and what I've seen and heard you talking about actually
Speaker 2: for the last couple of years is without naming it,
Speaker 2: a process conversation, A process conversation, so bringing awareness to
Speaker 2: hold up everything is really inflamed right now. Can we
Speaker 2: stop and look at the ways that we're engaging with
Speaker 2: each other? Can we stop and look at the ways
Speaker 2: that we're talking to each other? You did this in
Speaker 2: your gaslighting highlight. I don't remember how long ago that was,
Speaker 2: but it was about three years ago? Was it that long?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, time is meaningless, So like about three years
Speaker 2: ago when you point.
Speaker 1: On, I've been constantly updating it. That's why I have
Speaker 1: you recent because we have endless new examples of the
Speaker 1: media in the world demonizing women, which is what it's about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll link to that everybody, so you know
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. But that gas lighting highlight was
Speaker 2: where you talked about can we look at the very
Speaker 2: predictable pattern, the very predictable system of what we do
Speaker 2: to women in the spotlight? We hold them up as
Speaker 2: these amazing people, and then the second they cross some
Speaker 2: invisible boundary, we cut them down. Like it is very
Speaker 2: predictable and expected and horrendous and all of these things.
Speaker 2: And like you have this habit of taking that step
Speaker 2: back and trying to see what is the pattern, what
Speaker 2: is the mechanism, what is getting repeated here over and
Speaker 2: over and over again. And you've applied that to the
Speaker 2: way that we treat celebrities, the way that we treat
Speaker 2: people of color, the way that we treat mental health issues,
Speaker 2: use right, and I love that you have been applying
Speaker 2: that to social justice and the ways that we panealize
Speaker 2: people for learning or needing to learn. You and I
Speaker 2: had a very brief conversation via DMS a while ago.
Speaker 2: You shared how you're hearing that people are afraid to
Speaker 2: ask questions about gender, or ask questions about race, or
Speaker 2: really anything they're interested in learning more about, because we're
Speaker 2: so quick to demonize and punish people who don't get
Speaker 2: things perfect. Can we talk about that a little bit,
Speaker 2: and also just what you see happening, because you are
Speaker 2: awesome at seeing that bigger picture. And also what's that
Speaker 2: risk if we don't start looking at how we talk
Speaker 2: to each other.
Speaker 1: My brain works in patents, and I am always looking
Speaker 1: for the patent in everything, and I think that's what
Speaker 1: kind of draws me to social justice, is that so
Speaker 1: justice feels very clear in that a lot is the
Speaker 1: same system of oppression just being used again and again
Speaker 1: for different groups all of the time, and then everything
Speaker 1: happens exactly the same way, and yet somehow we are
Speaker 1: always still surprised. And so I feel very strongly when
Speaker 1: I see these patterns occur again to just lay them out,
Speaker 1: because I believe people are very very intelligent generally, and
Speaker 1: I think that we're just in a lot of kind
Speaker 1: of deliberate chaos amplified by the media and social media
Speaker 1: algorithms that are just bombarding us with so much fucking
Speaker 1: information all the time that then we can't clearly see
Speaker 1: the patterns. And so that's why I'm obsessed with laying
Speaker 1: those out when it comes to because a few things
Speaker 1: were said there. When it comes to people feeling not
Speaker 1: safe to ask questions, that's something that I feel very
Speaker 1: passionately about, because you know, I think the old saying
Speaker 1: of treat others as you would wish to be treated
Speaker 1: yourself really applies to education, where we have to remind
Speaker 1: ourselves of the question, how do I best learn? Do
Speaker 1: I learn best when I am being fearmongered and shamed
Speaker 1: and ridiculed, or do I learn best when I have
Speaker 1: an open space to air what I think now and
Speaker 1: have it challenged in a way that doesn't undermine my
Speaker 1: intelligence or my nature. You know, I was talking to
Speaker 1: this lovely therapist online. We were dming about some of
Speaker 1: these issues, and she was telling me that a lot
Speaker 1: of the young people who come into her clinic are
Speaker 1: increasingly unable to separate opinion from identity. Like we grew
Speaker 1: up in an age where you had your identity who
Speaker 1: you were, and then you had your opinions and your beliefs,
Speaker 1: and those were considered transient because they are transient, because
Speaker 1: upon new information we change our mind. That's what we're
Speaker 1: supposed to do. But nowadays it is not transient. The
Speaker 1: opinion that you have now, however old you are, wherever
Speaker 1: you have grown up, whoever your family is, that is
Speaker 1: a tattoo. It is considered a tattoo of who you are.
Speaker 1: Even if you're related to someone who has those opinions
Speaker 1: and you are still speaking to that person in any way,
Speaker 1: then inherit the tattoo of that marking your identity. And
Speaker 1: it's very dangerous because then when people challenge your opinions. Now,
Speaker 1: if you are someone who's intertwined your opinions with your
Speaker 1: whole identity, then it feels like they're attacking who you
Speaker 1: fundamentally are, and they're not. They're disagreeing with your opinion,
Speaker 1: or they should be just disagreeing with your opinion. Far
Speaker 1: too often we are now saying you're a bad person
Speaker 1: for thinking that, whereas we're not taking into account that
Speaker 1: a lot of us are reacting to what we're seeing
Speaker 1: and we are all seeing different things based on algorithms.
Speaker 1: One of the most important well, it wasn't a perfect documentary,
Speaker 1: but documentaries that came out was the one I think
Speaker 1: it was called like the social what's it called social experiment? Yeah,
Speaker 1: where they explain that via whatever you click on, you
Speaker 1: are going to see a different version of the same
Speaker 1: world event to someone else. So we think we're all
Speaker 1: seeing the same exact thing, and that the other people
Speaker 1: who have a different take on it are just stupid
Speaker 1: or ignorant or evil. We're not realizing that they seeing
Speaker 1: a completely different narrative. So I did my own social experiment,
Speaker 1: and I decided to have two Twitter accounts, one in
Speaker 1: which I would click on leftist things and one in
Speaker 1: which I would click on centrist or right wing things.
Speaker 1: And I was seeing two completely different narratives and being
Speaker 1: exposed to completely different information on both platforms. I'm the
Speaker 1: same person's, same age, same gender on both in the
Speaker 1: same location, which was fucking terrifying because these are delivered
Speaker 1: these all these different arguments are delivered in often intelligent
Speaker 1: and convincing ways by smart and educated people who know
Speaker 1: how to manipulate and know how to communicate an idea.
Speaker 1: So if I at thirty six am looking at these
Speaker 1: two things being like, oh god, now, actually I don't
Speaker 1: know how I feel about this anymore? What the fuck
Speaker 1: are young people supposed to do? And they don't know
Speaker 1: that this is happening, They don't really understand, And of
Speaker 1: course social media suppresses I posted about this and my
Speaker 1: Instagram always gets several hundred thousand likes and millions of views,
Speaker 1: and it got like three thousand likes and very few
Speaker 1: people were able to even see it, And I was like,
Speaker 1: of course, this conversation is being suppressed by the very
Speaker 1: platforms that are perpetuating it. If you put this clip up,
Speaker 1: it won't get any vise, it will get suppressed, and
Speaker 1: then you your Instagram account will become less visible in general.
Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to figure out ways that I
Speaker 1: can communicate that we are all being manipulated to shout
Speaker 1: at each other, scream at each other, judge each other.
Speaker 1: We're engaging in very archaic tribalism. Because if we stop
Speaker 1: screaming at each other and pointing at each other and
Speaker 1: arguing and nitpicking over the smaller things in life, then
Speaker 1: we will be able to see that there are a
Speaker 1: very small group of people, very high up, who are
Speaker 1: not giving any of us, regardless of our political ideology,
Speaker 1: healthcare or clean water or enough food for the people
Speaker 1: who were here, or housing or in social and mental
Speaker 1: health support. We'll all look at them. They don't want
Speaker 1: us to look at them, because then they'll actually have
Speaker 1: to fix this. So they're better with us just trying
Speaker 1: to own each other and trying to humiliate each other
Speaker 1: and trying to categorize and segregate one another. And that
Speaker 1: to me is very disturbing, and I don't want to
Speaker 1: be a part of that. So I've taken myself out
Speaker 1: of all of this, and now I am I'm I
Speaker 1: think the most punk thing I can do is now
Speaker 1: moved towards love and unity. And I think we see
Speaker 1: these waves happen again and again in history, and so
Speaker 1: that's where I'm at now, and I hope that's where
Speaker 1: I'm always going to be at. I hope I never
Speaker 1: get dragged back into tribalism, because it's really bad for us,
Speaker 1: and it often historically has ended up in some people
Speaker 1: getting very badly hurt.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that This is the most punk thing
Speaker 2: we can do is moving that direction. It's like all
Speaker 2: of this noise has made us misidentify the enemy and
Speaker 2: enemy in very big air quotes here because the enemy
Speaker 2: isn't a person, right, It's that belief that we have
Speaker 2: to attack things that make us feel stuff. Right to me,
Speaker 2: everything is grief, right, we know this, but like that,
Speaker 2: we're having a feeling come up and we don't know
Speaker 2: what to do with it, and so we go on
Speaker 2: that offensive attack thing. And what I hear you calling
Speaker 2: for again and again and again is take a beat
Speaker 2: and check in with yourself and get out of social
Speaker 2: media where it's not going to help you learn better
Speaker 2: skills to communicate and to really listen to yourself. But
Speaker 2: take that step back to be thoughtful, to do what
Speaker 2: you need to connect and take care of yourself and
Speaker 2: ask questions and build those relationships and those communities where
Speaker 2: it is okay to not be sure.
Speaker 1: And also, like I said, you know at the beginning
Speaker 1: of that very long runt of mine that you should
Speaker 1: try to if you wish to educate others or inform others,
Speaker 1: inform them in a way that you would be able
Speaker 1: to actively receive and implement that information. It is almost
Speaker 1: never from shouting and finger pointing, it really isn't. I mean.
Speaker 2: I think also if we look at just from a
Speaker 2: transactional point of view here, like if your goal is
Speaker 2: to reduce harm. If your goal is to help people
Speaker 2: change policy or change their hearts or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: to make the world a safer, more just, an equitable place,
Speaker 2: is what you're doing making that more likely? Right? I
Speaker 2: think we get so like we conflate things like constantly
Speaker 2: frustration that how dare you do you realize what's at stake?
Speaker 2: How dare you get it wrong and not be perfect?
Speaker 2: Like that is not somebody getting it wrong is not
Speaker 2: the enemy. That kind of nuanced conversation is really difficult
Speaker 2: when we're being fed very specific information and not getting
Speaker 2: the whole story. It's like that impulsive hit of I
Speaker 2: feel so helpless, attacking somebody is the only action I
Speaker 2: can take.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it feels empowering for a moment, you know.
Speaker 1: And there's also like there's so many kind of like
Speaker 1: basic childlike psychologies in our behaviors of like, let's all
Speaker 1: point at them so that no one looks at me.
Speaker 1: Or this thing has been said in the group or
Speaker 1: publicly online a thousand times, but I'm going to reiterate
Speaker 1: it loudly as I can so that everyone else knows
Speaker 1: that I'm in the tribe. I'm one of the don't
Speaker 1: don't ostracize me, keep me inside. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it not really to make an impact on the
Speaker 1: person that I'm trying to chastise or criticize. I'm doing
Speaker 1: it to make myself safe so that I will be
Speaker 1: included in the tribe. Because the safety in numbers, you know,
Speaker 1: we have our brains haven't updated in thousands of years.
Speaker 1: So we still think that we are out in the wild,
Speaker 1: that negative tweets or negative comments or text messages at
Speaker 1: school even are a saber tooth tiger. We have the
Speaker 1: same physical and chemical reaction to emotional psychological threats that
Speaker 1: we do to actual, tangible, immediate physical threats. And so
Speaker 1: this is a very stressful time and I just cannot
Speaker 1: help but believe that it is deliberately stressful. I think
Speaker 1: this is more organized chaos than we realize. Because division
Speaker 1: sells newspapers outrage. You know that when I was young,
Speaker 1: sex used to sell, But now sex has been so
Speaker 1: oversaturated by social media and by the Internet because pornography
Speaker 1: has kind of bled into every art, every area of art,
Speaker 1: that sex is kind of like, yeah, I've seen one, tip,
Speaker 1: I've seen them all, you know, like we've We've just
Speaker 1: seen it. I've seen it all, and so I'm no
Speaker 1: longer shoptalized nudity, and nor is anyone else. And younger
Speaker 1: and younger people are taking their clothes off, and so
Speaker 1: we're kind of hyper normalized to that. Outrage is what
Speaker 1: took over as the new sex. I think Donald Trump
Speaker 1: was when the media realized, oh, this is our comeback.
Speaker 1: The media was dying. That was the conversation. As you know,
Speaker 1: everyone was going out of business, everyone was going out
Speaker 1: of print. Donald Trump comes in, outrage, starts to sell newspapers,
Speaker 1: moral superiority starts to sell newspapers, fear starts to sell newspapers,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, like seven years ago, all
Speaker 1: these new publications were suddenly popping up out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: hundreds of new publications. People were starting their own quote
Speaker 1: unquote media brands. And it was all based on terrifying people.
Speaker 1: And again, it's very easy to have power and control
Speaker 1: of the people that you have terrified. It is easy
Speaker 1: to manipulate people who are afraid, who need a leader,
Speaker 1: who need a guide, who need somewhere to feel safe,
Speaker 1: who need a group, And tribalism is a very easy
Speaker 1: way to make people feel safe, but they're not because
Speaker 1: no one's coming to help you. Doesn't matter how good
Speaker 1: you were on Twitter, or who you poke your finger out,
Speaker 1: or who you've ostracized in your life, or if you
Speaker 1: have the right or wrong opinion, it doesn't matter. None
Speaker 1: of you have healthcare if you need it, that's free.
Speaker 1: None of you have healthy food, none of you have
Speaker 1: healthy water, none of you like there's just you don't
Speaker 1: have appropriate healthcare, social care. Crime is going up. Unhoused
Speaker 1: people are going up in numbers. Children are involved in that.
Speaker 1: It is so naive for us to think that finger
Speaker 1: wagging on social media is going to make any of
Speaker 1: us sofa. All it's doing is pushing us far apart.
Speaker 1: The reason the Me Too movement was so powerful is
Speaker 1: because a bunch of people I'm talking about women in particular,
Speaker 1: had been turned against each other from the beginning of
Speaker 1: this industry, and kind of from the beginning of time
Speaker 1: we taught that we're all each other's competitors. But in
Speaker 1: this industry that was a really big part of the
Speaker 1: journey is that she's going to take your place, and
Speaker 1: there's only room for one. There's a room for thousands
Speaker 1: of member only one woman, so you look out for her.
Speaker 1: And that was an amazing way to keep us all
Speaker 1: separated from each other because we didn't open up with
Speaker 1: each other. We didn't share, we didn't share experiences. We
Speaker 1: thought of everything as like a resource that we have
Speaker 1: to hoard, and there was a very big scarcity mindset.
Speaker 1: And I say we. I wasn't really in this industry
Speaker 1: until post Me Too, but this is what I've heard
Speaker 1: from people. I've been around, you know, from the beginning,
Speaker 1: and I've definitely still like felt traces of it. Me
Speaker 1: Too brought everyone together and for the first time, everyone
Speaker 1: said what they'd experience out loud, and then we realized,
Speaker 1: oh shit, this wasn't just me. I thought it was
Speaker 1: just me or long, this was everyone. This is a
Speaker 1: huge pervasive culture and system. And then we organized together
Speaker 1: against the infrastructure that was allowing that was creating a
Speaker 1: perfect a perfect environment for us all to be abused
Speaker 1: without telling anyone and without seeking justice because we had
Speaker 1: no power and protection and safety in numbers. So that's
Speaker 1: how I know from lived experience that the only way
Speaker 1: we can fix the huge social infrastructure problems that harm
Speaker 1: everyone of both political or all political ideologies is if
Speaker 1: we come together and start speaking about what we have
Speaker 1: in common rather than our very minor differences. If we
Speaker 1: really boil it down to the big things in life,
Speaker 1: it's so.
Speaker 2: Easy, I think, for people to like, be with you,
Speaker 2: be with you, with everything you're saying, until you get
Speaker 2: to that end part where we have to start listening
Speaker 2: to the people we disagree with. And then people are like, no,
Speaker 2: you don't understand what's a risk here, And I feel like,
Speaker 2: you do understand what's that risk here?
Speaker 1: Yes, But I also think we have conflated being upset
Speaker 1: by someone or triggered by someone with being as bad
Speaker 1: as actually having your rights taken away. Right. We've become
Speaker 1: so hyperbolic around the words like trauma or triggered. And
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not a psychologist, it's not my
Speaker 1: place to say this, but I do know that we
Speaker 1: are being actively moved away from resilience as a generation.
Speaker 1: We're being told no one must upset you, no, no one,
Speaker 1: you know, we must have boundaries. And these are all
Speaker 1: things that I subscribe to and I believe in, like,
Speaker 1: we should have boundaries, we shouldn't be actively traumatized, we
Speaker 1: should practice self preservation. But we are making people feel
Speaker 1: afraid to feel anything now, and that is stopping them
Speaker 1: from engaging with people who might say something very upsetting.
Speaker 1: And so we're bowing out of the conversation and we're saying,
Speaker 1: nobody platform them, nobody talk to them. And I understand
Speaker 1: where that comes from. I've definitely engaged with and felt
Speaker 1: that way before. But if we become too afraid to
Speaker 1: talk to the people that we disagree with because we
Speaker 1: are afraid they're going to make us feel very uncomfortable feelings,
Speaker 1: it's understandable to fear that we are not going to
Speaker 1: have a single chance at changing their mind. We're going
Speaker 1: to look like we don't have an argument. We're going
Speaker 1: to look like we don't have anything meaningful to say.
Speaker 1: We are not going to engage their humanity and their empathy.
Speaker 1: Segregation is not the way. Refusing to platform people you
Speaker 1: disagree with is not not actually the way. They are
Speaker 1: the people we most need to engage with right now,
Speaker 1: so we can all figure out that we have a
Speaker 1: lot in common, or we have bigger shit to deal
Speaker 1: with together, and then we can get to the smaller shit.
Speaker 1: And I'm very concerned at how we are being taught
Speaker 1: to not speak to anyone who's upsetting in any way.
Speaker 1: You know, I was talking to Dotor Sirach Traveler, who's brilliant,
Speaker 1: brilliant human being, on my podcast, and she was telling
Speaker 1: me that universities. Now, if someone is coming to speak
Speaker 1: to you a university who you do not like or
Speaker 1: find triggering, someone who you're not being forced to listen to,
Speaker 1: but just knowing that they're coming to your university and
Speaker 1: they might spew words that could incite things that you
Speaker 1: find dangerous or upsetting, then you're offered a safe space
Speaker 1: which has bubbles and cookies and milk and coloring books.
Speaker 1: These are for young adults. It is a literal infantalizing
Speaker 1: of the next group of our next leaders and thinkers
Speaker 1: and voters, et cetera, our society. That's not how we
Speaker 1: need to be teaching resilience. We do need people to
Speaker 1: learn how to create their own inner safe space, but
Speaker 1: we also need to teach the next generation how to
Speaker 1: tolerate someone's ignorant not because they need to then accept it,
Speaker 1: but tolerate listening to it and coming back with a
Speaker 1: well thought out critical response. We need to bring back debate.
Speaker 1: We are discouraging debate. We are demonizing, debate, or engaging
Speaker 1: with the opposition, and if we do that nothing, I
Speaker 1: promise you, nothing will ever change. And I know that
Speaker 1: you know that. But unfortunately, if you look back through history,
Speaker 1: no minority ever just magically gained the right to what
Speaker 1: they wanted. They did have to fight for it, they
Speaker 1: did have to go to extreme measures, sometimes of either
Speaker 1: harm or self harm. But ultimately it was always when
Speaker 1: the oppressor, the enough people on the side of the
Speaker 1: oppression went you know what, this is actually fucking crazy.
Speaker 1: I don't stand by this anymore. They lost power and
Speaker 1: they relented. We will stop that from happening. If we
Speaker 1: demonize and ostracize everyone on the opposition, then there'll be
Speaker 1: no one on that side to stop and say, you
Speaker 1: know what, this is fucked and it's not fair, and
Speaker 1: it is annoying and it is exhausting. But we couldn't
Speaker 1: have more historical proof to know that that's the only
Speaker 1: way we can ever get anything back. And we know
Speaker 1: that this way isn't working, because I feel like we
Speaker 1: are losing rights at speed that is terrifying, and I'm
Speaker 1: deeply concerned that's going to keep happening. And then there's
Speaker 1: so much work to undo for young people forever.
Speaker 2: When you say we need to let people say whatever
Speaker 2: they want at universities in a public sphere, people get
Speaker 2: really upset about that because they're like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: these are violent people. The whole reason that fascism is
Speaker 2: rising is because we're allowing it to take so much
Speaker 2: of the public attention and so much of the public sphere,
Speaker 2: and like letting these people say the quiet parts out loud.
Speaker 2: I think that this gets so confus using because we're
Speaker 2: not condoning violence. We're not condoning any of that stuff.
Speaker 2: What I just heard you say was it's not in
Speaker 2: our best interest to soothe ourselves away from our outrage
Speaker 2: with bubbles and coloring books. It is in our best
Speaker 2: interest to think about, how do we want to talk
Speaker 2: about this, What is actually making people attracted to these
Speaker 2: ideas that are so divisive and so hatefilled and so
Speaker 2: fear filled. How are we going to talk about this
Speaker 2: and how are we going to come together in this
Speaker 2: so that violence isn't running all over the place. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this very well partly because I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: I love everything you're saying here, It's hard for me
Speaker 2: to find my brain.
Speaker 1: But no, But I think it's fair. I think I
Speaker 1: think you're kind of like agreeing with me and challenging
Speaker 1: me at the same time, which I think is fair.
Speaker 1: And I agree. I agree that we shouldn't have to
Speaker 1: be in this situation. But if you do not learn
Speaker 1: how to convincing engage people, you're never going to have
Speaker 1: a chance at changing their mind. Yes, And I think
Speaker 1: you know, the Trump situation was so shocking because a
Speaker 1: lot of these people had felt all these thoughts all
Speaker 1: along and just hadn't said them. He didn't create racism.
Speaker 1: He unearthed what had been sitting there hiding during the
Speaker 1: entire Obama presidency. But because the mainstream narrative became very left,
Speaker 1: a lot of people felt like, well, I can't say
Speaker 1: how I really feel, and then it burst out of them. Right,
Speaker 1: So it was there all along, and lifting the lid
Speaker 1: and it's seeping out. Isn't the problem. We don't need
Speaker 1: to just always be like on defense for the symptoms.
Speaker 1: We need to figure out the cause of this fear, right,
Speaker 1: and we need to work on that together as a
Speaker 1: giant group of people who can say I'm scared or
Speaker 1: I'm angry or I'm this, that and the other and
Speaker 1: unpack that because we're all just grown up children, right
Speaker 1: We're all just like operating from the same kind of
Speaker 1: like five fundamental feelings. And I think that's just getting
Speaker 1: lost on us. And I think that we forget that
Speaker 1: just because we push for public obedience, that doesn't change
Speaker 1: the way someone privately votes. And that is a very
Speaker 1: very very important thing to get across to young people
Speaker 1: right now, to all people right now, is that just
Speaker 1: because we are pushing people into silence or obedience, it
Speaker 1: does not actually impact what they are going to do
Speaker 1: when they are alone in a voting booth. And we're
Speaker 1: seeing that via lots of outcomes, political outcomes that we
Speaker 1: find very surprising, and we find it very surprising because
Speaker 1: we've managed to silence people into a kind of like
Speaker 1: obedient state without actually changing their mind, and then when
Speaker 1: they have the freedom and the privacy, they going to
Speaker 1: do whatever they want or they don't engage at all,
Speaker 1: which is almost as bad.
Speaker 2: I think that not engaging at all is something that's
Speaker 2: happening so often. And this is true on a social scale.
Speaker 2: It's also true on a really intimate scale, right like,
Speaker 2: because we're afraid of saying the wrong thing to a
Speaker 2: friend of ours who's going through a hard time. We
Speaker 2: don't say anything at all, and then if they say,
Speaker 2: you know, you not saying anything doesn't feel good to me,
Speaker 2: then we're like, okay, well then I'm really not saying anything.
Speaker 2: Like for me, what I hear you saying, you know,
Speaker 2: foundationally is like, this all comes down to how scared
Speaker 2: we are, how much pain we're in, and how much
Speaker 2: we're afraid of loss and irrelevance and losing connections and
Speaker 2: losing the people we love or the worlds that we love.
Speaker 2: And what I hear you saying over and over and
Speaker 2: over again through so many different things that you tackle,
Speaker 2: is can we please start talking about how hard it
Speaker 2: is to be human and how scared we are and
Speaker 2: how much pain we're in, because not talking about it
Speaker 2: is killing us personally, collectively, communally globally. Now, those might
Speaker 2: not be that might not be a frame that you
Speaker 2: apply to yourself. From from where I like, this is
Speaker 2: what I have watched in following you for the years
Speaker 2: that I've followed you is continually coming back to hold up. Please,
Speaker 2: we are a human and can we talk about how
Speaker 2: hard that is? Sometimes because literally, not talking about it
Speaker 2: is killing us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people are committing suicide. We're killing ourselves. But
Speaker 1: also I'm just you know, going back to the patterns,
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the pattern. I'm obsessed with the solution.
Speaker 1: I was always obsessed with the solution. This was never
Speaker 1: something that I was doing just to have an outlet
Speaker 1: for my pain, because I'm quite a detached person. I
Speaker 1: feel the frustration and the rage and all that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, but I've always wanted to just fix it,
Speaker 1: And so now I might not be having the emotionally,
Speaker 1: you know, party approved reaction in saying like this isn't working.
Speaker 1: And demonizing and ostracizing people, even if they are the
Speaker 1: people that demonized and ostracize us, isn't working. But I'm
Speaker 1: very very focused on a resolution and on restoration. And
Speaker 1: restoration is something we need to do on an individual
Speaker 1: and mass social scale. And that's the only way we
Speaker 1: can now be helpful is to push for more love
Speaker 1: and grace in the world, because we are only going
Speaker 1: to continue to see a rise of evil if we
Speaker 1: are contributing to animosity in any way. And I slip,
Speaker 1: my temper gets the better of me. It's okay, it's
Speaker 1: okay to slip. I use foul language sometimes, especially for politicians,
Speaker 1: because I do dehumanize them because they have an unhuman
Speaker 1: level of power. But it's still not okay to use
Speaker 1: the language that I use sometimes because when a kid
Speaker 1: or a teenager sees that and sees that going viral
Speaker 1: because it's on social media and it was vitriolic, and
Speaker 1: so therefore it's going to get the most attention more
Speaker 1: so than anything reasonable. I say, They're not going to
Speaker 1: look at that in the context of me telling truth
Speaker 1: to the highest level of power. They're just going to
Speaker 1: see me talking to another human being like that, and
Speaker 1: they're going to go home and talk to their sibling
Speaker 1: or their friend at school that way. And the last
Speaker 1: time I did that, I was like, this is the
Speaker 1: I hope the last time I'm ever going to do
Speaker 1: this where I let my temper get the better of
Speaker 1: me because I'm not around children, I don't want children.
Speaker 1: I forget about the children. And now that my friends
Speaker 1: are all having kids, they've all had babies since my
Speaker 1: last outburst, and suddenly I have this like tangible example
Speaker 1: of the next generation where I can actually see them,
Speaker 1: and I can see their little minds, and I can
Speaker 1: see how fast they're learning and how fast they're absorbing
Speaker 1: everything around them. It has given me a complete shift
Speaker 1: without needing to be a parent, as to my sense
Speaker 1: of responsibility in this world, and as to how my
Speaker 1: carelessness is something that I cannot condone once I'm aware
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: I love this point that like with such a grace
Speaker 2: that you offer yourself while also being responsible, Like looking
Speaker 2: back over a few decades here, it's like I did
Speaker 2: what I thought was the most powerful and effective way
Speaker 2: to use my voice back then, and I can see
Speaker 2: what I was doing, But I look back now and
Speaker 2: that wasn't appropriate, And I'm going to do what I
Speaker 2: can now to make things better. And like, this is
Speaker 2: literally how we grow and develop as human beings. It's
Speaker 2: not that we get things right once and we're done.
Speaker 2: That is actually death. But looking at the impact on yourself,
Speaker 2: on others, on the world. How am I doing this?
Speaker 2: How am I voicing this?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It's constant incremental progress. Yeah, that's all life is.
Speaker 1: Life is supposed to be constant incremental progress. It's not
Speaker 1: supposed to be perfection. Pushing for perfection is the enemy
Speaker 1: of progress. It is ridiculous. It is utopian, and it's
Speaker 1: literally getting the opposite of the desired effect and result.
Speaker 2: I think cooking things back to understanding what we're longing for,
Speaker 2: and on a biological basis, we are all longing for love,
Speaker 2: connection and safety. And the question to ask is, is
Speaker 2: what I'm doing right now contributing to that?
Speaker 1: It's really not. And you know, your work is a
Speaker 1: lot in grief and the area of grief and the
Speaker 1: impact of that, and I think what we are feeling
Speaker 1: as a collective grief we are feeling. You know, we
Speaker 1: have statistics, hard statistics that proves that loneliness is at
Speaker 1: the highest numbers we've ever seen it, Like people have
Speaker 1: a lack of community, especially in the West. You know,
Speaker 1: people at something like sixty or seventy percent of citizens
Speaker 1: of these huge countries that feel so connected and active
Speaker 1: and cosmopolitan are saying they feel desperately, desperately lonely. That
Speaker 1: is not just because of the fact that they may
Speaker 1: not have a lot of people physically in their life.
Speaker 1: There is a general culture of hyper individualism and a
Speaker 1: lonely feeling of I can't tell anyone who I really
Speaker 1: am because if I'm not perfect, I will be ostracized.
Speaker 1: We have to make space for people's mess. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about hatred, I'm talking about mess, misunderstandings, mistakes. We
Speaker 1: have to because people are killing themselves, and even the
Speaker 1: people who aren't actively hurting themselves. Loneliness is being proven
Speaker 1: to now be more dangerous for you than alcohol or
Speaker 1: cigarettes as an impact on your physical health and your
Speaker 1: stress levels. You know, there's hormone regulation that is needed
Speaker 1: from physical touch. We're not going near each other, so
Speaker 1: we're just afraid. Everyone feels like a potential enemy, and
Speaker 1: so the kind of social contagion of who do I
Speaker 1: have to ostracize next? Leaves us individuals also feeling very
Speaker 1: lonely because if you're looking for perfect people, you're not
Speaker 1: going to find them. You're going to end up pushing
Speaker 1: everyone away, and then all that's left is you, and
Speaker 1: that worries me. And that's the collective grief that I
Speaker 1: think we are all feeling. And that's what I'm pushing
Speaker 1: against because if my work is in mental health, I
Speaker 1: want everyone to be happy, regardless of how they grow up,
Speaker 1: regardless of what their family's political ideology is, or even
Speaker 1: their current or former political ideologies. I want everyone to
Speaker 1: be happy and healthy. That's how we make a happy,
Speaker 1: healthy society.
Speaker 2: You've said, we're all on the same side here, the
Speaker 2: side of love, which I think really encapsulates everything you've
Speaker 2: said and everything that you're trying to do, is to
Speaker 2: call people back into their humanity and look at the
Speaker 2: way they are relating to themselves and relating to each
Speaker 2: other and relating to the world from there, which is
Speaker 2: not perfection, it's process.
Speaker 1: And listen, we might not all love each other, but
Speaker 1: everyone loves someone, and that someone is going to be
Speaker 1: impacted by a culture in which we are against each
Speaker 1: other and vitriolic, or they are going to be impacted
Speaker 1: by a lack of safety in our society, like active
Speaker 1: physical safety, Or they're going to be impacted by pollution,
Speaker 1: or they're going to be impacted by dirty water or
Speaker 1: sickness or not being able to pay your healthcare bills
Speaker 1: because they're so exploitative in this country. Someone you love
Speaker 1: is going to be hurt. You might not love everyone,
Speaker 1: you might not love whole groups of people. You cannot
Speaker 1: ever escape the fact that someone you love is going
Speaker 1: to get hurt by all of these massive crises. If
Speaker 1: we don't all work together and fix this shit and
Speaker 1: create space for tolerance, and create space for equal rights,
Speaker 1: and create space for people to be allowed to be themselves.
Speaker 1: And so that's where I'm coming from. You know, like
Speaker 1: when I talk about abortion, I've stopped just coming from
Speaker 1: a place of like, my body, my choice, and fuck
Speaker 1: you if you want to tell me what to do
Speaker 1: with my body. You know, I think we all got
Speaker 1: a bit on that. You know. I'm someone who's a
Speaker 1: very loud abortion advocate. Now I'm like, hey, all right,
Speaker 1: let's just talk to you in a way you can
Speaker 1: understand you're very worried. A lot of you politically who
Speaker 1: are against abortion are also politically against immigrants coming in.
Speaker 1: Those are citizens who can work, who can contribute to
Speaker 1: our economy, and who can pay taxes. They're not dependents.
Speaker 1: They're hugely independent, highly skilled. A lot of the time
Speaker 1: afraid of those people coming in, but you're not afraid
Speaker 1: of that. A million babies a year that you are
Speaker 1: now wanting to force to be born, who are dependents
Speaker 1: for the next eighteen years, who are going to grow
Speaker 1: up without the necessary mental health stability. If they're not
Speaker 1: wanted or if they can't be parented, they might end
Speaker 1: up in a foster system which is very well intentioned
Speaker 1: but deeply broken. In this country, they are more likely
Speaker 1: to have their parents or themselves have to go into
Speaker 1: crime of some sort in order to be able to
Speaker 1: pay the bills because we have a cost of living crisis.
Speaker 1: So have you thought about what the uptick in crime
Speaker 1: and the medical resources being even more thinly spread, and
Speaker 1: a million dependents a year pouring into this country with
Speaker 1: no social infrastructure to help young parents, especially young mothers,
Speaker 1: with childcare or paying for formula. We have a shortage
Speaker 1: of baby formula in this country. Is that a society
Speaker 1: that you definitely want to live in? Do you definitely
Speaker 1: want to vote in favor of a society that is
Speaker 1: even more crowded forcibly crowded in huge unsustainable numbers with
Speaker 1: not enough resources for everyone? Are you going to enjoy
Speaker 1: what that society looks like? Because you took this one
Speaker 1: moral stance about something that was never really going to
Speaker 1: affect you, because you weren't going to adopt those kids
Speaker 1: who are You are in no way impacted by the
Speaker 1: decisions of another person as to what they do with
Speaker 1: their own body and their future. But you are very
Speaker 1: much so impacted by the society you create with the
Speaker 1: decision you make regarding this. Of course, I'm angry that
Speaker 1: people want to take away other people's body rights, but
Speaker 1: you can't explain it like that because that's not where
Speaker 1: they're coming from. They're coming from a place of fear
Speaker 1: and scarcity and moral superiorities. You have to appeal to
Speaker 1: that with logic and break down what the world looks
Speaker 1: like if they vote the way that they are voting,
Speaker 1: And that's how you get through to people. And when
Speaker 1: I said it like that on the view got ten
Speaker 1: million likes and then went completely fucking super viral, and
Speaker 1: more people listen to me than if I was just
Speaker 1: scolding them about their morals and their you know how
Speaker 1: archaic the behavior is. And after that I felt very
Speaker 1: like sure of my path.
Speaker 2: That's such a powerful example because again I think that
Speaker 2: we're such a binary culture, right like for us are
Speaker 2: against us kind of thing here, and the stakes are
Speaker 2: so high you have to burn't do all this stuff.
Speaker 2: But that example that you just gave is perfect because
Speaker 2: we're not saying don't try to change policies, don't try
Speaker 2: to change behavior that impinge on others rights, Like all
Speaker 2: of this stuff. It's like, listen for the pain at
Speaker 2: the root of the choices they're making, at the root
Speaker 2: of the policies they're voting for, because if you don't
Speaker 2: hear their very human pain, we're not going to change
Speaker 2: the policies that get enacted. There's something ferocious in that
Speaker 2: for me, that the way that we create the world
Speaker 2: that we most want is not by demonizing the people
Speaker 2: who would take it from us, but by hearing their
Speaker 2: humanity and answering that and helping them see what you're
Speaker 2: voting for is actually creating what you're afraid of. Can
Speaker 2: we talk about that? And that that is a million
Speaker 2: times more effective. It's a million times more effective in
Speaker 2: getting the world that we want, but it's also a
Speaker 2: million times more effective in our own health and our
Speaker 2: own relationship and the stability of our own nervous systems
Speaker 2: because we're not continually stoking that outrage machine that might
Speaker 2: feel good in the moment but doesn't carry us. We
Speaker 2: have to be willing to feel a little bit of
Speaker 2: discomfort in order to deepen and grow our relationships. It
Speaker 2: just reminds me of what you were talking about earlier,
Speaker 2: is that we are so intolerant of discomfort, that we
Speaker 2: will not listen for what is needed to strengthen our relationships. Right, So,
Speaker 2: if you're trying to if you're trying to help somebody
Speaker 2: who's going through any kind of hard time and they say, actually,
Speaker 2: what you're doing is not helpful, if you're having a
Speaker 2: reaction of well, I have good intentions, my heart is
Speaker 2: in the right place, cut me some slack, Like, neither
Speaker 2: of us are going to get what we want, right,
Speaker 2: Like that person wants to be truly wants to be helpful,
Speaker 2: Their intentions are good. The person who's having a hard
Speaker 2: time truly wants to feel supported. But if we can't
Speaker 2: have a dialogue about what's true because we're afraid of
Speaker 2: that discomfort, because we're afraid of our feelings, then nobody
Speaker 2: is getting what they want. So to me, like, that's
Speaker 2: the microcosm, that's the intimate level of what you've been
Speaker 2: talking about all along. Is it is okay to have
Speaker 2: conflict and relationship. It is okay to have discomfort, It
Speaker 2: is okay to fail each other. What isn't working for
Speaker 2: us is demonizing each other for failure, for not getting
Speaker 2: it right, because that makes us not willing to have
Speaker 2: conversations about what would feel healing, what would feel like growth,
Speaker 2: what would feel like connection, because that is actually what
Speaker 2: we all want, and what I hear you doing is
Speaker 2: taking that out onto a much wider scale.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we also just don't really have enough conversations from
Speaker 1: a young enough age around rejection, so we take rejection
Speaker 1: very badly. And I also think that this is generation
Speaker 1: and this is you know, this is maybe going to
Speaker 1: sound a bit like me reaching for something, but we
Speaker 1: are a dopamine deficient generation because there are so many
Speaker 1: ways in which our dopamine is being exhausted because we're hypersimulated,
Speaker 1: and there's also things in our social environment, our food
Speaker 1: that are impacting our dopamine receptors. Right, So people who
Speaker 1: don't have enough dopamine are massively, massively impacted extra hard
Speaker 1: by rejection. It feels physically painful to them. And if
Speaker 1: no one's even being taught at a baseline, even someone
Speaker 1: with normal dopamine levels how to receive rejection and that
Speaker 1: rejection is okay. It's just a sign that you need
Speaker 1: to move differently in some way, either move on to
Speaker 1: a different person or a different job, or move on
Speaker 1: from this action. That you thought would be the correct action,
Speaker 1: that's not, in fact the correct action. Rejection feels so
Speaker 1: awful and like this terrible stain on us, because again,
Speaker 1: we demonize mistakes, we demonize learning, we demonize growth. We
Speaker 1: look at it as a pathetic thing. And that's incredibly sad,
Speaker 1: because it's the most noble thing as being willing to change,
Speaker 1: being open to change, being open to hearing someone. And
Speaker 1: so I do think that that is a big problem
Speaker 1: is the fact that we just don't know enough about rejection.
Speaker 1: We don't understand dopamine, we don't understand the human psyche,
Speaker 1: and we speak in ways that don't account for that
Speaker 1: at all. So we need how to learn how to
Speaker 1: effectively give rejection and tell someone what you're doing is
Speaker 1: not right or this is not right for you, and
Speaker 1: we need to learn how to receive rejection more appropriately.
Speaker 1: I'm very good at receiving rejection. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I think it's because I'm asc likely and tice person, perhaps,
Speaker 1: but I just I'm logic based, and so when I
Speaker 1: know something isn't working, I would like to learn how
Speaker 1: to fix it or whether I should just cut my
Speaker 1: losses and you know, move away. And I think that
Speaker 1: I would love to be able to share the peace
Speaker 1: that I have in life of being okay with rejection,
Speaker 1: social rejection, whatever, rejection for my own group, rejection of
Speaker 1: another group. I would like to share that piece because
Speaker 1: it's a much nicer way to move through the world,
Speaker 1: is looking at rejection as pointers rather than an attack
Speaker 1: or a death sentence, a social death sentence, or a
Speaker 1: death sentence of a relationship.
Speaker 2: Yes, and we come back to you like this is
Speaker 2: the way that I frame that is that process conversation.
Speaker 2: But I love that you put this in learning that
Speaker 2: rejection is not a moral judgment, it is a boundary
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 1: It's about self protection, not rejection of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also like rejection is in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways a bid for a deeper connection.
Speaker 1: These things sound like their high concept because they're about
Speaker 1: big social things, but really it all boils down to
Speaker 1: the same things that babies need, right. Babies need love,
Speaker 1: Babies need to be allowed to express when they need
Speaker 1: love or a cuddle or a shit or some milk.
Speaker 1: We're all just massive babies who just have been taught
Speaker 1: to no longer advocate for ourselves. We've been taught from
Speaker 1: the age of two onwards, not to advocate for our needs,
Speaker 1: to bury our needs, to find our needs embarrassing and pathetic,
Speaker 1: to find it embarrassing to reach out and say I'm lonely,
Speaker 1: to find it embarrassing to say I'm sad, to be
Speaker 1: embarrassed to say I need a cuddle, I need more.
Speaker 1: You know, Oliver Twist taught us the shame in asking
Speaker 1: for more. But my point is is that I think
Speaker 1: that we need to get back to the innocence that
Speaker 1: got robbed from us when we were taught to stop
Speaker 1: telling the truth about how we feel and to stop
Speaker 1: advocating for what we need. Because when we don't tell people,
Speaker 1: they don't know of expect them to psychically intuit what
Speaker 1: we need. But that's not possible because we're all so different.
Speaker 1: We're all products of such different experiences. Even if we
Speaker 1: have the same skin color and the same age and
Speaker 1: same gender, life shapes us all in such different ways,
Speaker 1: and so we can't all into each other's needs because
Speaker 1: we all each have such different needs and different approaches.
Speaker 1: We just need to learn how to fucking communicate. If
Speaker 1: we can all just learn how to communicate our needs
Speaker 1: and the needs of others. With some more kindness in
Speaker 1: humanity on all sides, we can get out of this
Speaker 1: mess before it's too late.
Speaker 2: I love that everything comes down to the ability to
Speaker 2: communicate and to listen, which is what you've pointed out
Speaker 2: again and again and again through so many different facets
Speaker 2: of this life, and being willing to take the heat
Speaker 2: for that in the service of the world that we
Speaker 2: long for, which is incredible. Thank you for that so much.
Speaker 1: That's all right. I'm like a teflon person, you know.
Speaker 1: I was one of the first people to really come
Speaker 1: out swinging the way that I did about diet culture
Speaker 1: and eating disorder stuff and going up against the media
Speaker 1: and going up against the bullying of different people. And
Speaker 1: I took a lot of heat when I did that.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just all collaps and clicks. I took a
Speaker 1: lot of heat, a lot of death threats, a lot
Speaker 1: of rape threats, a lot of criticism. I lost a
Speaker 1: lot of work, a lot of you know, opportunities for
Speaker 1: doing so. But now I'm willing to be to take
Speaker 1: the onslaught of rage because I'm now moving in the
Speaker 1: opposite direction. I feel like I was built to maybe
Speaker 1: be that crush test tummy for society, and I'm so
Speaker 1: obsessed with accountability because I think it's really healing. And
Speaker 1: so I'm moving forward the way that I did before,
Speaker 1: with just as much accountability I could muster, and trying
Speaker 1: to show people that I a real piece of shit
Speaker 1: in some ways who left school at sixteen and is
Speaker 1: also isn't educated therefore, and it's very flawed, and was
Speaker 1: very mentally ill and raised a little bit by wolves
Speaker 1: at times because my family were also very ill. It's
Speaker 1: like I'm a deeply problematic person. I have deeply problematic
Speaker 1: thoughts and beliefs and behaviors at times. And so if
Speaker 1: I can change and keep being willing to change, even
Speaker 1: so publicly, then you can too. But I'll be the
Speaker 1: one that takes the flames and you can get behind me,
Speaker 1: and then we can figure this shit out together. That's
Speaker 1: not because I'm some great hero. I think there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with me, but it has made me kind of
Speaker 1: perfect for this position, and so until it takes my
Speaker 1: health away, or my mental health, I'll keep doing it.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you if you think there
Speaker 2: is any hope for us, but I think you just
Speaker 2: answered that I'm.
Speaker 1: Full of hope. I'm full of hope all if everything
Speaker 1: is based in optimism, my approach has just changed to
Speaker 1: a far more hopeful one. I love that.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great spot for us to wrap up.
Speaker 2: I am obviously gonna link to iway. I'm going to
Speaker 2: link to your Instagram. I'm going to point people to
Speaker 2: the gaslighting highlight on your Instagram because I think that's
Speaker 2: a really good introduction to the ways that you take
Speaker 2: that step back and talk about the systems in which
Speaker 2: we operate. We will be right back, everybody, with your
Speaker 2: questions to carry with you. I have several to share
Speaker 2: with you right after this break. Each week, I leave
Speaker 2: you with some questions to carry with you until we
Speaker 2: meet again. Okay, my list of questions and comments on
Speaker 2: this episode is very long, and I am not going
Speaker 2: to subject you to all of them, so I'm just
Speaker 2: going to pick one from my list. Jamila and I
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time talking about social movements, which, honestly,
Speaker 2: social movements are just personal individual losses, personal needs multiplied
Speaker 2: at scale. Right, think about that, Social movements are just
Speaker 2: personal individual losses, personal needs multiplied at scale. I love
Speaker 2: that Jamila spoke right into that right into those individual
Speaker 2: fears and those individual desires inside social change itself, like
Speaker 2: we fight for the things that we're trying to protect.
Speaker 2: Her example was, if you want to protect bodily autonomy,
Speaker 2: then screeching at people that they have to respect bodily
Speaker 2: autonomy isn't going to be effective because it's not an
Speaker 2: issue they care about. If they care about other perceived
Speaker 2: threats to their survival, that's what we need to engage with.
Speaker 2: That's what we need to address. I mean, basically, what
Speaker 2: Jamila was saying there is what are their fears? Where
Speaker 2: is their human soft spot? Where are they scared? Can
Speaker 2: we listen for that and speak to it. Can we
Speaker 2: listen for their pains that we might all join together,
Speaker 2: maybe from different starting points, and arrive at the same
Speaker 2: destination In this case, in Jamila's example, it was safeguarding
Speaker 2: bodily autonomy, but this really does apply to anything. Listening
Speaker 2: for pain and speaking into it, addressing the pain in
Speaker 2: the room. I mean, it's the whole foundation of this show, right,
Speaker 2: It's the whole foundation of the work that I've been
Speaker 2: doing for the last ten years. This world that we
Speaker 2: are trying to build here together, how do we listen
Speaker 2: for pain and shift up the ways we respond to it.
Speaker 2: It is kind of accurate, right that, like so much
Speaker 2: of activism, so much of cancel culture is kind of
Speaker 2: just unskilled yelling right now. And it's like we, of
Speaker 2: course we need boundaries and all of that stuff. This
Speaker 2: isn't like a free for all where everybody gets to
Speaker 2: do what they want. But that practice of listening for
Speaker 2: pain and using the ways that we speak to each other,
Speaker 2: that's scaffolding of the ways we communicate, using that to
Speaker 2: build the world we want. Like, there's just so much
Speaker 2: power in that. That's one of the things that I'm
Speaker 2: going to carry with me from this conversation is that
Speaker 2: reminder of how much power there is in the ways
Speaker 2: we listen and the ways we communicate, and whether we
Speaker 2: build a world or destroy a world by the ways
Speaker 2: we choose to communicate. Yeah, So I'm carrying that with me,
Speaker 2: and I am carrying one more thing with me because
Speaker 2: it feels important whether it is okay.
Speaker 1: To make mistakes.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm not going to go into this because that
Speaker 2: would be like a whole other thing, another like two
Speaker 2: hours of me doing a recap here, but I'm going
Speaker 2: to be reflecting on whether it is okay to make mistakes.
Speaker 2: I'm curious what stood out for you in today's show.
Speaker 2: I know we touched on a whole lot of things.
Speaker 2: Everybody's going to take something different from the show, but
Speaker 2: I do hope you found something to hold onto. Also,
Speaker 2: if you did, I would love to hear about it.
Speaker 2: You can leave comments on social media at Refuge and Grief.
Speaker 2: You could leave a review for the show on your
Speaker 2: favorite platform. I want to know how this conversation affected
Speaker 2: you and what you're thinking about and if it sparked
Speaker 2: any interesting conversations with the people in your life. Let
Speaker 2: me know. You can follow the show at It's Okay
Speaker 2: Pod on TikTok and Refuge and Grief everywhere else. To
Speaker 2: see video clips from the show, use the hashtag It's
Speaker 2: Okay pod on all platforms, so not only I can
Speaker 2: find you, but others can too. None of us are
Speaker 2: entirely okay, and it's time we start talking about that together. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's okay that you're not okay. You're in good company.
Speaker 2: And seriously, these process conversations, these conversations around how we
Speaker 2: talk about the things we care about, the things we need.
Speaker 2: They are so important and I'm really glad you're here.
Speaker 2: That is it for this week. Everybody, remember to subscribe
Speaker 2: to the show, leave a review, get your own conversations
Speaker 2: going by sharing the show with your people. Coming up
Speaker 2: next week, it is the lead vocalist for one of
Speaker 2: my all time favorite bands, Margo Timmins of the Cowboy Junkies.
Speaker 2: Now you do know their music. Even if you're not
Speaker 2: sure you recognize the name, Google it. Follow the show
Speaker 2: on your favorite platforms so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 2: It's okay that you're not okay. The podcast is written
Speaker 2: and produced by me Megan Devine. Executive producer is Amy Brown,
Speaker 2: co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, with logistical and social media
Speaker 2: support from Micah, Post production and editing by Houston Tilley,
Speaker 2: music provided by Wave Crush and Background Noise, and a
Speaker 2: slightly delayed production schedule provided by the sudden road construction
Speaker 2: outside my house, which is yes, improving the infrastructure.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad they're here too,