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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you drive down your

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Speaker 1: suburban road, you very often see the garbage guys and

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Speaker 1: garbage ladies as they are doing the dirty work of

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Speaker 1: throwing your trash away. But imagine how they felt when,

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Speaker 1: instead of saying trash tumbling in and out of their truck,

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Speaker 1: they see the bodies of two tiny infants, newborns literally

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Speaker 1: thrown away like trash Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened?

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Speaker 1: That's the big question? Joining me right now and All

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Speaker 1: Star panel to make sense of it all. First of all,

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Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, renown criminal defense attorney, joining us out of LA.

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Speaker 1: You can find him on Twitter at at Troy Slayton,

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Speaker 1: Board certified clinical Psychologist, Professor of Behavioral Medicine at TRURO,

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Speaker 1: author of the Causes of Autism. You can find him

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Speaker 1: at doctor Jeff Gardere dot com. Genetic genealogist The gene

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Speaker 1: Hunter at the gene Hunter dot com. Sharat LaPoint joining US.

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Speaker 1: Forensics expert host of brand new hit podcast Shattered Souls.

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, doctor Kendall Crown's Deputy Medical Examiner,

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Speaker 1: Travis County, Texas. That's Austin joining us but first, Terray Caputo,

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Speaker 1: lead news anchor w DBO Ray, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us before we get started. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friend Angie Marie at True Crime. El management employee

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Speaker 1: was emptying trash bins in the forty one hundred block

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Speaker 1: of South Latrove Avenue in Sydney Township. This is when

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Speaker 1: she saw something odd mixed in with the trash that

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Speaker 1: was tumbling out of the trash can and into the

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Speaker 1: trash truck receptacle. Upon closer examination, she discovered an absolutely

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Speaker 1: gruesome scene, the lifeless bodies of two sweet, innocent newborn

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Speaker 1: baby boys. They'd been thrown out like they were trash,

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Speaker 1: thrown out literally as trash. Can you imagine what that

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Speaker 1: poor person went through saying that we'll stick with them

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Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives. Hold on, Troice Slaton.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I remember the moment

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Speaker 1: that I decided I've got to get any job in

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Speaker 1: the DA's office. It was I was prosecuting a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: We got him on one murder and very often as

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Speaker 1: a finale, either at the close of the day or

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Speaker 1: before the jury would retire for lunch, or at the

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Speaker 1: end of the trial, I would put on a slide show.

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Speaker 1: Typically the witness to identify each slide would be either

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner that's where you would come in, doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns, or the lead detective who can testify lawfully

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Speaker 1: to hearsay as to what went on in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: So the lights would be out totally, there'll be complete silence.

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Speaker 1: You know how many times I would practice at slide show,

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Speaker 1: Troy Layton, because there's nothing like a technical malfunction in

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Speaker 1: the middle of your slide show to kind of ruin

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Speaker 1: the moment lights off. I had walked up to the

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Speaker 1: screen to point out with my hand different things that

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Speaker 1: were evidentiary of evidentiary importance, and I came to an autopsy,

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Speaker 1: as I recall, and I was right there at the

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Speaker 1: screen in the dark, and I just looked at it,

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Speaker 1: and I remember it was a veteran trial judge on

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Speaker 1: the bench. He said, miss Grace, because I had stopped,

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Speaker 1: and I knew in that moment I needed to do

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Speaker 1: something else because the weight of all that literally thousands

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Speaker 1: of cases was just backbreaking. So when you get to

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Speaker 1: a moment like this in a trial or a case,

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Speaker 1: is something that sticks with you forever. Here we've got

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Speaker 1: these garbage guys. See two infants, newborns dead tumbling out

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Speaker 1: of the trash. It's a horrific incident and it's something

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Speaker 1: that will stick with them and everybody involved in the

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Speaker 1: case for the rest of their lives. And justice delayed

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Speaker 1: in a case like this does not always mean justice denied.

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Speaker 1: You're right, choice, Layton. Do you have cases that have

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Speaker 1: a moment in them, something you've defended or investigated that

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Speaker 1: you have never forgotten. There are some things in criminal law, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: as you well know that you can never unsee Judges

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Speaker 1: talk about in court that you can't unring a bell.

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Speaker 1: You can't unsee certain things. There are photographs that I

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Speaker 1: have seen that have never made their way into a courtroom,

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Speaker 1: that I've successfully kept out of evidence because their only

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Speaker 1: purpose for the prosecutor to show them to the jury

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Speaker 1: would be to inflame their passions and prejudices. Some pictures

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Speaker 1: that were so awful that the only purpose would be

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Speaker 1: to make the jury angry. Well, of course, according to you,

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Speaker 1: and if it's a photo a crime scene, then is

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Speaker 1: likely a truthful and accurate portrayal of what was saying

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Speaker 1: there at the crime but because it was so upsetting

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Speaker 1: it made you upset. You knew it would make the

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Speaker 1: jury upset, as it should have. But I get they said,

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Speaker 1: you don't just forget. Yes, But the purpose of showing

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Speaker 1: something to a jury is to get to the truth.

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Speaker 1: But that's why we have the standard in the law

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Speaker 1: where if some if something's probitive value is significantly outweighed

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Speaker 1: by its prejudicial effect, then it is not admissible. Aren't

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Speaker 1: you before the horse? Because we haven't even gotten to

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Speaker 1: if there were photos or any evidence other than the

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Speaker 1: testimony of these garbage guys. So you know what bring

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Speaker 1: it down a notch? Slaton back to Caputo. Ray, tell

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Speaker 1: me about this location, Stickney Township. I know it's a

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Speaker 1: little municipality in Illinois, right, Well, yeah, but it's a

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Speaker 1: part of Chicago, Nancy, And if you look at it

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Speaker 1: on a map, it's right there by Chicago Midway Airport,

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Speaker 1: like literally right on the outskirts of one of the

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Speaker 1: edges of the airport. If ever have lived in a

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Speaker 1: city by an airport, you kind of understand the industrial

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Speaker 1: type of area, and there are homes, but you know

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Speaker 1: there's an airport, there's a big mail facility, there's car

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Speaker 1: rental places, so I would consider it industrial. But also

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Speaker 1: there are homes around the area, a lot of homes,

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Speaker 1: a lot of residential areas. I'm looking at the town

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Speaker 1: square there in Stickney Township. It's a population of about

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Speaker 1: forty one thousand at the last census, which is a

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Speaker 1: small town, and that weighs into the investigation. I want

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Speaker 1: to go straight out to doctor Kendall Crowds, Deputy Medical Examiner,

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Speaker 1: Chaves County. That's Austin, doctor Crowns. How can you look

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Speaker 1: at an infant and immediately know it's a knee born.

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Speaker 1: There's a few things. Often with fetuses or brand newborns,

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Speaker 1: they still have the umbilical cord attached, and as the

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Speaker 1: baby develops, the umbilical cord actually drives up and falls out.

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Speaker 1: But when they're brand newborn, the umbilical cord is kind

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Speaker 1: of white and pearlish looking, so you know that they

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Speaker 1: haven't been out of the womb, so to say, for

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Speaker 1: very long. When you see that. Back to ry computer

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Speaker 1: at least news anchor WDB, what was the condition of

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Speaker 1: the bodies? Take a listen ray to Angie Marie a

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Speaker 1: true crime. One of the babies still had his placenta

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Speaker 1: attached to him and the other babies placenta was found

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Speaker 1: in a black shoebox near the baby. She immediately called

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Speaker 1: nine to one one and so a long and frustrating

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Speaker 1: investigation began. Authorities went around to everyone in the area

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Speaker 1: to see if anyone had seen or heard anything, but

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Speaker 1: nobody had. They spoke to several pregnant women in the area,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately this was just another dead end crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace for those of you just joining us

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation in series seem one eleven, imagine the

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Speaker 1: shock of this garbage person. It's a woman, a garbage lady.

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Speaker 1: When she sees not trash or soft drink containers or

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Speaker 1: boxes or newspapers, she sees two tiny bodies pouring out

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Speaker 1: of the trash, immediately calling nine one one, which leads

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Speaker 1: to a long and frustrating investigation. Back to you, doctor Kendall.

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Speaker 1: Crown's a deputy medical examiner in Austin. I know you

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Speaker 1: just heard what. Angie reported that the placenta one placenta

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Speaker 1: was a shoe box. One of the babies still had

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Speaker 1: his placenta attached to him to baby boys, what does

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Speaker 1: that tell you, doctor Kendall Crowns Well. Again, the fact

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Speaker 1: that the placenta is still intact are attached, it shows

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Speaker 1: that the child was just freshly born, because if you

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Speaker 1: leave the placenta attached, you will have continual hemorrhage from

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Speaker 1: the baby. Basically, when they take the baby out and

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Speaker 1: they clamp the cord, that's to stop the blood coming

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Speaker 1: out of the baby as well. So with the placenta

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Speaker 1: is still attached, you know that kid didn't survive very

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Speaker 1: long after birth. Again, it shows that these were offecially

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Speaker 1: born children. Two infant boys. Straight out to Karen Smith,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert, host of Shattered Souls podcast, now starting it's

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Speaker 1: season two. Karen Smith, so many directions to go right

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Speaker 1: now regarding evidence. For instance, your prints, a DNA on

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Speaker 1: the body, FIBERUS on the body, but the trash itself,

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Speaker 1: What garbage was used to hide these infant baby boys?

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Speaker 1: I mean, was it household trash? Was there a credit

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Speaker 1: card receipt? Was there a fingerprint on a soda can?

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Speaker 1: There's just what direction do you go in on a

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Speaker 1: scene like this, Karen Nancy, this is one of those

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Speaker 1: scenes that just gives me nightmares. No crime scene or

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Speaker 1: homicide investigator ever wants to get a call like this,

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Speaker 1: and you're right, you have a garbage can. You know,

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Speaker 1: who knows what was what was in there besides these

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Speaker 1: two poor little infant boys. But you have to start somewhere,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, that entire garbage can filled with trash needed

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Speaker 1: to be documented, collected, photographed, tag bag and placed into

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Speaker 1: evidence because you don't know if it's somebody from the

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Speaker 1: immediate area. You don't know if it was somebody, you know,

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Speaker 1: I would hardly think that they would put it in

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Speaker 1: their outfront trash can, but who knows. You know, people

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Speaker 1: don't think when they do things like this. So everything

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Speaker 1: in that trash can, right, I don't think they're really thinking.

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensic expert. As a matter of fact, doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns, what would the mother have gone through delivering

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Speaker 1: these children and cutting the umbilical cord and delivering the placenta?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what would she have gone through? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean the people give birth outside the hospital on you know,

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Speaker 1: not on a regular basis, but it does happen. So

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Speaker 1: she would have to birth the babies herself and then

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Speaker 1: of course remove the placenta herself, which she would have

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Speaker 1: had a lot of hemorrhaging associate or bleeding associated with that.

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Speaker 1: So she would go through the birthing process by herself.

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Speaker 1: It does it can be done, of course, It's been

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Speaker 1: done throughout time. She would have to, you know, take

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Speaker 1: the babies out on her own, and then make sure

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Speaker 1: that also took the placenta out as well. Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: placenta comes out on its own, but sometimes it can

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Speaker 1: get stuck. She would have had a lot of bleeding

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Speaker 1: associated with it. And then after that, if the cord

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Speaker 1: tour on one of the babies as she was trying

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Speaker 1: to get it out, the babies would be bleeding. There

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Speaker 1: would be screaming of the children, probably screaming of the parent.

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Speaker 1: It would be a kind of a bloody, screaming mess

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Speaker 1: at the scene. And I'm just not really sure how

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Speaker 1: you go about doing it all alone. I remember when

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Speaker 1: I gave birth, I was so out of it, Lucy,

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Speaker 1: and I almost died in the middle of all that.

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Speaker 1: So I just had a wonderful, wonderful doctor that saved

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Speaker 1: all three of us, you know, to doctor Jeff Gardier,

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Speaker 1: Board certified Clinical Psychologist, Professor a Behavioral Medicine at Truro college,

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Speaker 1: doctor Jeff, not only the physical requirements of giving birth,

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Speaker 1: but the emotional toll it takes on someone to give birth.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how would this woman have been in the

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Speaker 1: right mind? And doctor Jeff, as you recall, you and

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Speaker 1: I covered a case where an infant was found in

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Speaker 1: a dumpster, but the infant had been beaten dead, and

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Speaker 1: as it turned out, a co ed had given birth

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend beat the child. One of them beat

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Speaker 1: the child and discarded of the infant, discarded the infant

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Speaker 1: in a dumpster. So I'm trying to get into the

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Speaker 1: frame of mind of a mother during and immediately after childbirth. Yes,

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Speaker 1: of course, and it's a situation here where it can

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Speaker 1: be absolutely traumatic. But given what are the circumstances before

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Speaker 1: the birth, does she feel safe? Is there someone there

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Speaker 1: to assist her, does she want the baby or the babies?

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Speaker 1: What is her socio econom situation, what is her frame

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Speaker 1: of mind? Is she mentally stable before this has begun?

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Speaker 1: All of those things play into what the birthing process

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Speaker 1: will be. And so when we see something like this

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Speaker 1: where the fetuses are discarded in this way, it really

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Speaker 1: does speak to that there were some circumstances there where

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Speaker 1: these children were not wanted, or there were some very

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Speaker 1: dire circumstances going on where some very horrible judgments were made.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean to you, Karasmian forensic expert, that

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Speaker 1: this was residential trash, not industrial trash. Well, it tells

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Speaker 1: me that somebody probably lived in the area. You know,

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Speaker 1: I cannot imagine. I do not have children, but I

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine going far after giving birth to twin. I'm

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Speaker 1: regardless of the circumstances, going far to do this disgusting,

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Speaker 1: horrendous act of disposing them in a garbage can. So

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Speaker 1: it would have to be somebody local or close by.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, Guys, we were talking about a garbage

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Speaker 1: lady going about her routine. You know, I don't even

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Speaker 1: like taking the garbage out to the chute in our

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Speaker 1: apartment in New York, much less carting it out to

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Speaker 1: the street. So but you do it. It's a chore,

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Speaker 1: got to be done. Here is a lady minding her

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Speaker 1: own business, doing her job, and she sees two infant

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Speaker 1: boys newborns tumble out of the trash. First thing, secure

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Speaker 1: the scene. All the trash and that truck, all the trash,

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Speaker 1: and that garbage can. Has to be saved for evidentiary purposes.

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Speaker 1: Can we find a receipt, can we find a fingerprint,

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Speaker 1: can we find anything to identify who killed these babies?

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Speaker 1: Then there is a transport of the babies to the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner's office to take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at True Crime. The next day and autopsy was performed

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Speaker 1: which showed that the boys had been alive at the

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Speaker 1: time of their birth, but had died later due to asphyxiation,

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Speaker 1: and so because of this, their desperate ruled homicides. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: authorities were never able to determine the identity of the

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Speaker 1: boys or determine who the boys' parents were, and so

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Speaker 1: unfortunately the keys went called for many many years Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us,

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Speaker 1: two infant, knee born twins are found in the trash

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Speaker 1: by the garb lady. I want to go straight back

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Speaker 1: to Karen Smith, forensic expert Karen cop Sing go door

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Speaker 1: to door trying to speak to what neighbors have described

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Speaker 1: as pregnant women that goes nowhere. What was their purpose? Well,

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Speaker 1: they have to they have to just blanket the entire

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Speaker 1: neighborhood because, like I said, this is going to be

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Speaker 1: somebody local, Nancy, if they're not going to travel as

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Speaker 1: far distance. So they had to question everybody, family members.

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Speaker 1: Did you notice that one of your family members was

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Speaker 1: pregnant and is no longer pregnant? Um? You know, questioning

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Speaker 1: pregnant women. That was probably because you know, pregnant women

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Speaker 1: might talk with each other about their experiences. Did you

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Speaker 1: talk to somebody who was nervous or scared or or

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Speaker 1: you know, had questions about giving birth? All of those

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Speaker 1: things come into play, but unfortunately all of those leads

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Speaker 1: went nowhere. Well, of course, doctor Jeff, they were looking

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Speaker 1: for a potential killer. If a woman had been pregnant

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Speaker 1: and they go and interrogate her, they find out as

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Speaker 1: she's still pregnant or can't she produce the baby? That's

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Speaker 1: why they talked to the ladies. Absolutely and again we

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Speaker 1: talked about proximity. How much more proximity than can you

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Speaker 1: have than the person who actually gave birth to the babies?

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Speaker 1: Straight out to special guests joining us the gene hunter,

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Speaker 1: and I don't mean blue chains, I mean ge n

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Speaker 1: e hunter. Her name Cheryl La point Janetta. Genealogists found

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Speaker 1: her the gene Hunter at the gene hunter dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl a point, we're just old trial lawyers here, so

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Speaker 1: you're going to have to speak to us in terms

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Speaker 1: we can understand. I will never forget the first time

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Speaker 1: I tried to explain to a jury de ox a

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Speaker 1: ribo nicolaic acid. I finally just sat down and let

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Speaker 1: the expert describe it. But at the time these children

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Speaker 1: were found ed in the trash, two infant boys, Kneeborn's twins,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have anything called mitochondrial DNA right at the

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Speaker 1: time that the babies were found. DNA was taken at

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Speaker 1: the autopsy and about seventeen years ago, the only system

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Speaker 1: that was available to try to find who the parent

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Speaker 1: was was the system law enforcement uses, that is, the

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Speaker 1: CODAS system. So the markers in the DNA were actually

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Speaker 1: run against the CODAS system and there was no masses found,

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Speaker 1: which basically means that the parents of these babies had

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Speaker 1: never committed a crime and their DNA was not in

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Speaker 1: the only system that was available to try to find

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Speaker 1: who this parent was. To Troy Slayton, criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: joining us side of LA, if you could briefly describe

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Speaker 1: in regular people taught not Latin phrases you picked up

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Speaker 1: in law school. What is codis. A CODIS is a

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Speaker 1: law enforcement database. It's a national database where law enforcement

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Speaker 1: agencies from all over the country enter the DNA from

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Speaker 1: people who have been typically arrested or convicted of felony

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Speaker 1: offenses in their respective states. And the purpose is for

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Speaker 1: exactly this type of situation where some DNA is found

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Speaker 1: from a rape kit or from an autopsy, and it

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Speaker 1: is then run against the database of all the people

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Speaker 1: who have been arrested or convicted of significant offenses all

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Speaker 1: over the country. Very often you don't see DNA get

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Speaker 1: taken on a misdemeanor, but definitely on felonies. Is SAPA

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Speaker 1: standard operating procedure. Now to doctor Kennel Crowns, Deputy Medical

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Speaker 1: exam or Chows County, Texas, Austin, Doctor Crowns, when we

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Speaker 1: see the DNA didn't match up in CODIS, how do

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Speaker 1: you get DNA? How do you extract DNA from a

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Speaker 1: newborn baby twin? So the DNA is extracted in a

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Speaker 1: we what has done at autopsies. They take a blood

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Speaker 1: sample and they place it on what we call a

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Speaker 1: DNA card, which is a special card. It's coated with

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Speaker 1: a fixative and then those cards are sent to the

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Speaker 1: crime one a card or a piece of glass. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean a card? A card? It's actually like

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Speaker 1: a paper card with a special card. Similar. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: you take what blood? Saliva? What blood? They take a

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Speaker 1: samples of blood from the decedent and place it on

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Speaker 1: the card. But with a needle you extract blood like um,

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Speaker 1: you went at the doctor's office. Well, so it's similar.

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Speaker 1: But what we do is we remove the chest plate

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Speaker 1: and then directly get blood from the heart with a needle. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what I asked the question. I deserve that.

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Speaker 1: Why you would just get it with a needle like

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Speaker 1: at the doctor's office, I don't know, but thank you

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Speaker 1: for that detail. I'll have that in my head tonight.

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Speaker 1: So you remove the baby's chest plate and take the

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Speaker 1: blood directly from the heart. May I ask why that's

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Speaker 1: necessary when you could just do a pin prick. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you're doing an autopsy and you do the blind

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Speaker 1: stabbing with the needle, you could cause damage to the

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Speaker 1: internal organs. That then you would have to explain once

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Speaker 1: you got in there to do the autopsy from an arm.

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Speaker 1: Taking blood from the baby's arm would do more damage

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Speaker 1: than opening up the breastplate. You can't take blood from

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Speaker 1: an arm in a dead body because there's no pressure leaps.

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Speaker 1: So when they're taking your blood at the hospital, you

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Speaker 1: have blood pressure that allows blood to flow into the tubes.

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Speaker 1: When the body's dead and there's no heart beating, everything's stagnant.

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Speaker 1: So what you have to do is you have to

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Speaker 1: get into the body cavity to get the blood itself.

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Speaker 1: You can't just stick it in an arm because nothing's

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Speaker 1: pumping anymore, so you wouldn't be able to get any

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Speaker 1: blood at all. And Troy's Laton veteran criminal defense attorney,

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Speaker 1: I've just displayed for everyone why A you try not

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Speaker 1: to get into an argument with an expert not in

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Speaker 1: your field because they will win. And number two never

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Speaker 1: at trial ask the question you don't know the answer to.

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Speaker 1: And number three because it'll make you look like an agent.

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Speaker 1: And number three prepare, prepare, prepare, because at trial, if

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Speaker 1: I already knew what Crowns was gonna say, I would said,

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Speaker 1: I would have said, And isn't it true, Doctor Kindla Crowns,

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Speaker 1: you had to open the breastplate to get the blood

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Speaker 1: for a very specific reason. You couldn't just take the

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Speaker 1: blood from the arm like at the doctor's office. Explain, right, Troy,

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Speaker 1: I mean there you go, be prepared and don't ask

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Speaker 1: the question you don't know the answer to. That's true.

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Speaker 1: But when I'm asking questions, usually as a criminal defense,

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Speaker 1: it's attorney. Most of my questions are what are called

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Speaker 1: leading questions, where I'm asking the question that pretty much

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Speaker 1: has the answer in the question. In other words, you're

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Speaker 1: making an argument in front of the jury question my question, Like,

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Speaker 1: isn't that right, doctor Crowns. Yes, I know you're I

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Speaker 1: know your style. And as for a reason, so doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns, you take the blood directly from the heart,

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Speaker 1: you put it on something like an index card, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure seal it so people like Troy Slayton cannot

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Speaker 1: then argue with the chain of custody that somebody put

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Speaker 1: somebody else's blood on the card. And then you get

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Speaker 1: to someone like Shara LaPoint, the genetic genealogist. Once the

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Speaker 1: lab gets the blood sample, the dot. It really only

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Speaker 1: takes a dot, right Shara, what do they do? Yes, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: they have a dot of blood and they run they

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Speaker 1: get a profile. Now the profile that was obtained when

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Speaker 1: these babies were found was not able to be used

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Speaker 1: in the system we as genetic genealogists used. It's a

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Speaker 1: different process. So you actually have to get this DNA

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Speaker 1: now in a file that can be uploaded to sites

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Speaker 1: that we use to compare DNA matches. So that had

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Speaker 1: to have been done with a sample of DNA that

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Speaker 1: was degraded that the lab actually stored for about seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: And in a nutshell, what is ge dmatch dot com?

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Speaker 1: What is that? So that is a site that was

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Speaker 1: developed by two gentlemen who were genealogists, and we like

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Speaker 1: to compare our results with people that we match. But

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Speaker 1: you may have tested at one company and I may

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Speaker 1: have tested at another company. So we can upload our

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Speaker 1: results no matter where we test to jed match and

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Speaker 1: we can compare our results. We can see how we

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Speaker 1: match to each other, or we can compare ethnicity results.

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Speaker 1: There's a fine pools that we use crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace and now in the search for who left

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Speaker 1: these infants purposely throwing them in the trash to die.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to WGN nine Chicago's Rob Snead, Cook

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Speaker 1: County Sheriffs of instigators reopened the investigation and used DNA

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Speaker 1: from the scene to attempt to identify the birth mother.

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Speaker 1: It's called it's investigative genetic genealogy where a familial DNA

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Speaker 1: profile is developed from DNA and uploaded into a database.

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Speaker 1: It's an open source database called jedmatch dot com. We

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Speaker 1: had contracted pairabon Nanilabs to assist us with finding the

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Speaker 1: first mother of these babies. Investigators travel to Holland and

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Speaker 1: obtain a discarded item containing Briley's DNA, and the DNA

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Speaker 1: was a match. According to authorities, I discarded item. I

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Speaker 1: had cases where a cop saw a target eat a

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Speaker 1: pizza and they went in after the pizza was discarded

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Speaker 1: and got DNA off the crust of the pizza. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen again to WG and Chicago. Nine authorities say

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Speaker 1: a national case inspired the handling of this case paras

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Speaker 1: a Golden State killer case broke through genetic genealogy. It

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Speaker 1: was the first case it was solved through genetic genealogy,

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Speaker 1: so I had I had approached the W two investigation

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Speaker 1: Sean Gleason after that happened and after if we could

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Speaker 1: open the case. He said yeah, and they did. Reopen

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Speaker 1: the investigation, and that investigation led them to near by

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Speaker 1: Holland take a listen to our friends at crime online

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Speaker 1: dot com. Antoinette Briley was born and raised in the

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Speaker 1: Chicago area. She's a forty one year old single mother

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Speaker 1: of a daughter. She currently lives in Holland, Michigan, and

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Speaker 1: works very long hours at a local factory. Riley doesn't

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Speaker 1: have any criminal history, and she's described as a productive

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Speaker 1: member of society. A forty one year old single mom

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Speaker 1: of a daughter who we've learned is age twelve. Antoinette

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Speaker 1: Briley Terray Kaputo. How did the cops id Antoinette Briley

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Speaker 1: through DNA? Yeah, Nancy through DNA. What they did was

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Speaker 1: they went to Holland, Michigan, which is a state over

428
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: from where she used to live where all this happened.

429
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: And you can understand why she slipped below people's radars

430
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: because this is a woman leading a relatively mild wife,

431
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: no you know, raising a child, working a job. But

432
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: they ended up finding a cigarette butt that she had smoked,

433
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: and they picked it up from her unwittingly, and she

434
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: became a match. The DNA matched her, So that's how

435
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: she ended up getting picked up. So mommy'spect cigarette throws

436
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: down the butt. Cops are watching. They get the cigarette

437
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: butt under the law. If you abandoned properties, throw it

438
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: in the trash, throw down a cigarette butt, leave across

439
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: the pizza. It's fair game. They don't need a warrant

440
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: if you abandon the property or the cigarette butt. But

441
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: to you Cheryl LaPoint Genetic genialis the gene hunter dot

442
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: com Shara, How did they find Briley to start with?

443
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: When they look through the matches, the shared matches of

444
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: DNA once the DNA from the twins was put into jedmatch,

445
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: they sorted groups of matches and they found shared ancestors.

446
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: And they use typical genealogical tools like birth certificates and

447
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: historical records, and they build family trees to find where

448
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: this all leads to. They look at an area where

449
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: the families are from. They look at married couples and

450
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: see if you have DNA on both of those lines,

451
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: and they continue to build a family tree until they

452
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: get to an area where you have a suspect, where

453
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you can give law enforcement names and say these are

454
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: possible suspects, finding let's see if they match. So to

455
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: get a match on geed jedmatch. It doesn't mean you

456
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: have a criminal history that would show up in codas.

457
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: This woman does not have a criminal history. She's holding

458
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: down a job and raising a twelve year old little girl.

459
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: She's forty one years old now. But what the DNA

460
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: from the baby shows with modern technology called familial DNA,

461
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: is a match to somebody in Briley's family. Therefore, they

462
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: don't know it's Brile yet. They go all the way back,

463
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: and in fact, they could go back as far as

464
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, and you follow the family trade down, down, down, down,

465
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: down down until you find a woman who would have

466
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: been in childbearing age seventeen years ago. Then you look

467
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: in this area and then you narrow it down. They

468
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: go to Antoinette Briley's home and work. They watch her,

469
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: which they are allowed to do under the law. They

470
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: see her discard a cigarette butt. They get it. They

471
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: compare the DNA, and then they know who the birth

472
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: mother is. Take a listen to our friends at WG

473
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: and Chicago nine. I thought, do you say that mother

474
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: is forty one year old? Answer one, Ed Briley. They

475
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: say that she's of Holland, Michigan. Now they say that

476
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: they use DNA to link her back to her twin

477
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: boys that they say she threw away like trash. I'm

478
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: happy that they're closer for the twinn you know, there

479
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: was nobody fighting for them, so I am happy that,

480
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, we identified who did this to them, and

481
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of a surreal feeling. The announcement came seventeen

482
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: years after a waste management employee found twin brothers in

483
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: a Stickney township Alley Andre will Jones ABC seven. A

484
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: trash collector discovered their bodies while emptying a garbage bin

485
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: in Stickney Township that been belonged to Don Pechnic. Was

486
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: indescribable that someone would do that. Investigators say Briley lived

487
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: about a mile and a half away from the crime scene.

488
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: Pechnic remembers detectives questioning her and others in the neighborhood.

489
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't tears, I didn't and Clinton was in chuck.

490
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: We did multiple interviews off and down the block, you know,

491
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: checking doing canvases, but we didn't get anything back then.

492
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: That's why this case now jump in that way is

493
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: so good. Detectives have not released a motive for the murders.

494
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: They say Briley does have a daughter. Pecnic says she

495
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: has always thought about the twins and what happened to them?

496
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: What was going through her mind? And no, I think

497
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: it is I think of them. Then Briley is arrested.

498
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fourteen ABC seven. Cook

499
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: County Chrieff's police say through genetic genealogy they were able

500
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: to eventually connect DNA evidence recovered from the scene to Briley.

501
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: As part of the investigation, Riffs police detectives traveled to Holland, Michigan,

502
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: and obtained discarded items Briley's DNA, which was then matched

503
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: to DNA from the victims. On Thursday, detectives learned Briley

504
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: was in the Chicago area. She was arrested joining a

505
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: tra stop in Oaklawn. Riley was transported to the Sheriff's

506
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: police headquarters here in Maywood, where she admitted post Miranda

507
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: who were involvement in the birth, death, and disposal of

508
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: the two deceased infants. But why why? Take a listen

509
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: to our friend Joy Barge and our cut eight at

510
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: crime online dot Com. Reports say that Antoinette Briley, then

511
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: twenty four, is alone at her grandparents home on the

512
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: day of June six, two thousand and three. She notices

513
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: bleeding and is having cramps, so she gets into the

514
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: shower and she starts giving birth to the first baby.

515
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: Riley then describes that she felt more pressure and realized

516
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: she was giving birth to a second baby. After delivery,

517
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: she sees that both infants are mail and are crying,

518
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: but not loud enough for neighbors to hear. She describes

519
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: the sound as whimpering, and then Ray Kimputer ol news

520
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: anchored WDBO. How do they go from her bathtub, her

521
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: grandparents bathtub to a trash can? Oh, this is really,

522
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: said Nancy. She puts them in a duffel bag, these

523
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: newborn kids, wondered them. The placenta is still attached. Puts

524
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: them in duffel bags and she gets into her car

525
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: and she says that she's going to go to the hospital.

526
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: Now I'm looking at a map. In the hospital where

527
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: these children were left was only blocks and blocks away.

528
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't too far. But she decided at some point

529
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: that she was going to dump them in a garbage

530
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 1: can in an alley, So she took him out of

531
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: the bag, and she did just that. She threw them

532
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: in that garbage can with trash. Doctor Jeff Guard, you,

533
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: let's get real. If you were taking babies to the hospital,

534
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: why would she stuff them in a duffle bag? Absolutely

535
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: well with them being suffocated in the duffel bag, and

536
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: it shows that possibly not only was she emotionally unstable,

537
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: but not at all invested in this, and that she's

538
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: not holding them, she's not nurturing them. She puts them

539
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: in a duffel bag in order to take them away.

540
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: You're saying emotionally unstable. That is not insanity under the law.

541
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: She knew very well what she was doing. She put

542
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: him in a duffel bag, put the placenta in a

543
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: cardboard box, through it all in the trash. Even said

544
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: I thought about taking them to the hospital, but then

545
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: change my mind. This is a case a murder one.

546
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: I hate to see a single mom of a twelve

547
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: year old girl go to jail. She ran, that's true,

548
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: she hid, but you cannot hide. For a modern day science,

549
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: we wait as just as a holes. Nancy Grace Crime

550
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: Story signing off, Goodbye friend,