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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. How many of us,

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Speaker 1: at some point in time have heard the term needle

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Speaker 1: in a haystack. Now, for those of you that have

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Speaker 1: never been around a haystack, it's quite dense. It's overwhelming

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Speaker 1: when you begin to look at it from the perspective

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Speaker 1: of trying to find something as tiny as a needle.

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Speaker 1: But let's take that idea and expand it out a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Let's think about an island, an island that

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Speaker 1: we've heard about all of our lives. It's one hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighteen miles long and at its greatest north south

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Speaker 1: width I guess we could say twenty three miles and

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Speaker 1: that comes up to just over seventeen hundred square miles.

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Speaker 1: That's a big number. That's a very big number. Oh oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I forgot. We also have to add another island,

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Speaker 1: an island that in addition to the one I just

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Speaker 1: previously mentioned. This island is thirty two miles in length,

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Speaker 1: and they sit on the edge of one of the

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Speaker 1: largest bodies of water in the world, the Atlantic Ocean.

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Speaker 1: We're going to discuss today the identification all of these

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Speaker 1: years of Karen Forgatta. Otherwise known as Jane Doe Number seven.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We've

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about everything that's happened with gilg Beach. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's discuss Karen Forgatta.

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Speaker 2: Fire Island. Jane Doe was identified as thirty four year

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Speaker 2: old Karen Virgatta, who actually was last seen on Valentine's

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Speaker 2: Day in nineteen ninety six, her legs found April twentieth

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Speaker 2: of ninety six and her skull found in twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: fourteen years later. This story, Joe, I do not see

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Speaker 2: that we're at the ending. We're talking about people that

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Speaker 2: were murdered. We're talking about women that were murdered and

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Speaker 2: one man and trying to find the purp who did this,

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Speaker 2: and are we looking for more than one? I mean,

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Speaker 2: right now we've got one man and reality here three

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Speaker 2: women identified as his victims, and of course the possible fourth.

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Speaker 2: And now we have the identification of yet another possible victim,

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Speaker 2: Fire Island, Jane Doe.

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Speaker 1: It's important I think that this is how it fits

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Speaker 1: from me at least, because it comes down from a

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Speaker 1: forensic standpoint to dismemberment, and my gosh, how many times

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Speaker 1: have we talked about dismemberment on body bags, But in

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Speaker 1: this case in particular, it's that the horrible nature of

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Speaker 1: Karen's case and also the idea that looking back through time.

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Speaker 1: This stepped off in nineteen ninety six, man I was

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Speaker 1: I was still you know, working in Atlanta as a

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Speaker 1: death investigator. A matter of fact, that's the year that

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Speaker 1: the Olympics rolled into town in Atlanta, nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 1: that's when they actually found down in Fire Island. A

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Speaker 1: couple was walking along the shore and this is not

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Speaker 1: on the ocean side of the island, just so everyone

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Speaker 1: understands that it's on the bay side, so it's more

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Speaker 1: of a protected area. They were, you know, walking along,

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Speaker 1: can you imagine, and they see a partially open plastic bag,

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Speaker 1: and contained within that bag are a couple of legs,

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Speaker 1: a couple of human legs, and I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: their shock, you know, at that discovery. But you know,

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Speaker 1: part of what you do when you're trying to understand

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Speaker 1: the case is kind of the geography, the lay of

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Speaker 1: the land. That's that's why it's so important, you know,

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Speaker 1: because there's been a lot of mention. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to ignore the elephant in the room here.

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Speaker 1: All right, there's been a lot of mention about connectivity

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Speaker 1: between all of these cases relative to you know, the

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Speaker 1: so called Gilgo four now, and you have to you

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Speaker 1: have to, I think any right thinking person would have

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Speaker 1: to sit here and try it to see if there's

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Speaker 1: any kind of connectivity. But when you start to talk

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Speaker 1: about this thirty two thirty two mile long island, fire Island,

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Speaker 1: that it's not part of Long Island, it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: not like you need to hop in your car and

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Speaker 1: drive along the shore and there's some because where it's

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Speaker 1: going to take you over the fire, it's not the

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Speaker 1: way it works. You have to go up and inland

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Speaker 1: and back around and then back down. But here's here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, Dave, that back in nineteen ninety six, when

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Speaker 1: that couple was walked walking along you know, their pathway there,

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Speaker 1: and they look down and they see this partially open

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Speaker 1: bag and it's in water, it's in a water environment,

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Speaker 1: and there's what appears to be human legs sticking out.

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Speaker 1: That's connected in time. You have to go all the

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Speaker 1: way back. You have to go all the way back

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Speaker 1: to nineteen ninety six, and you wind up connecting a

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Speaker 1: skull that's found in twenty ten along Ocean Parkway, and

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Speaker 1: it's not too far away from Gilgo Beach a skull,

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Speaker 1: and these two things are connected.

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Speaker 2: The area where her skull where Fire Island, Jane Doe's

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Speaker 2: legs were found and the skull found on Gilgo Beach.

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Speaker 2: Was it found in the same area as the gil

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Speaker 2: Go Beach four or was it found because I know it.

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Speaker 2: Gilg Beach four were four women who were actually found

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Speaker 2: or actually recovered in a very similar manner with the gunnysack,

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Speaker 2: and their bodies were similar so that they could be

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Speaker 2: tied together based on them. But the other bodies and

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Speaker 2: we're talking about six other people here, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: five let's see six other people. So we got four women,

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Speaker 2: a toddler and one man dressed as a woman, and

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Speaker 2: they were not in the same way treated as the

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Speaker 2: Gilgo four.

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Speaker 1: Correct, correct? Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely right. And the skull

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Speaker 1: of Karen that was recovered was actually recovered not too

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Speaker 1: far away from those areas of deposition, but they're they are.

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Speaker 1: The skull itself was in kind of briars and brambles

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Speaker 1: at another location called Tobey Beach, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: adjacent to Gilgo Beach, it gets kind of complicated because

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Speaker 1: you've got.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is where it comes into being four miles.

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Speaker 2: Tobe Beach is four miles from the site of the

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Speaker 2: Gilgo Beach four area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're right, and it is. It is some

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Speaker 1: distance in the sense of you and I were out walking,

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Speaker 1: you know, gee whiz, we've got to walk four miles.

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Speaker 1: But love, man, when you're talking about the depositing of

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Speaker 1: human remains, and specifically women that all seem to have

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Speaker 1: this kind of commonality, you begin to think, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're putting together in your mind, you know, what do

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Speaker 1: these things have in common. Well, we've got female remains,

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Speaker 1: we've got kind of a an area that would lend

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Speaker 1: itself to a protected area from view in order to

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Speaker 1: facilitate this, and then not just the go gofore, but

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Speaker 1: in another area, we've also got more dismembered remains that

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Speaker 1: had been found. And so you're looking at a pattern

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Speaker 1: that's kind of developing in and that's something that I'm

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Speaker 1: very interested in exploring in this case. And the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing for me, if we just look at Karen's case,

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing thing for me is this, why why

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Speaker 1: is it? Now? I got to ask this, why is

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Speaker 1: it that you would choose if you're the perpetrator to

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Speaker 1: bag up and it takes time after you have done

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Speaker 1: a dismemberment to bag up legs? Okay, drive all of

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Speaker 1: this distance to this location, assuming that the perpetrator in

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Speaker 1: Karen's case was not domiciled around Fire Island, driving all

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Speaker 1: the way out there, searching out a location that's not

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Speaker 1: on the beach but inland, okay, on the bayside, and

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Speaker 1: put it in that body of water, and then then

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Speaker 1: many many years later you find her skull, which is

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Speaker 1: essentially on another island away from that. And why is

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Speaker 1: there this delay? And why was the skull not found

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Speaker 1: in a protected state, and why is it found on

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Speaker 1: what you know? Seemingly I'm sure that it's gone through

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Speaker 1: the rising and falling of waters and all those sort

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Speaker 1: of things. But they're describing the area where her skull

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Speaker 1: was recovered as being found in briers and brambles. So

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Speaker 1: that tells me that it's it's a deposition of a

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Speaker 1: human skull and a completely different type of environment, certainly

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Speaker 1: topographically from where the legs are found.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that the killer was in a boat

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Speaker 2: and threw the legs in the bag over the side

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Speaker 2: of the boat and they just washed up on the shore,

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Speaker 2: and that he's traveling down the coast with the head

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Speaker 2: and just decides I'm going a chunk this thing out.

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Speaker 2: You know, Is that possible that he's just tossing stuff

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Speaker 2: and arbitrarily landed an area where a serial killer had

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Speaker 2: also picked a place to bury bodies or to get

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Speaker 2: rid of bodies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure it's possible, And it's also possible how likely, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, And it's also possible at lightning

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Speaker 1: constriking people can win win the lottery.

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Speaker 2: This is crazy, Joe. We've got legs on Fire Island

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Speaker 2: in ninety six and a skull found in and around

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Speaker 2: Gilgo Beach in twenty ten, when, by the way, there

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Speaker 2: is also an area where two other bodies were discovered

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Speaker 2: that have been dismembered. That's also generally speaking, in the

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Speaker 2: same area, you know, within a thirty or forty five

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Speaker 2: minute drive, and those parts of bodies also appearing in

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Speaker 2: the same general vicinity as long as Fireyron Jane Doe,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've got we've got bodies that are dismembered.

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Speaker 2: We've got bodies that aren't dismembered. We've got a toddler

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Speaker 2: and a mother that we know are connected, and we've

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Speaker 2: got to do dressed like a woman. Are these the

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Speaker 2: victims of one serial killer Joe? Or is there some

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Speaker 2: kind of a club going on that is built on

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Speaker 2: terrorizing people or is.

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Speaker 1: It one person? Or is it one person? Yea, yeah,

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Speaker 1: doing it all and has a taste for it and

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Speaker 1: is growing in their expertise. When you're talking about dismemberment

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Speaker 1: and you know these these cases of dismemberment, you have

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Speaker 1: to think back where they occurring. Is there any is

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Speaker 1: there any chronological tie backs to in the dismembered remains

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Speaker 1: are found as opposed to the intact remains are found.

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Speaker 1: And how long had those intact remains been found when

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Speaker 1: compared to those that have been dismembered. Do you have

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Speaker 1: an individual that is mixing things up, if you will,

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Speaker 1: as to their form and function. Maybe maybe they didn't

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Speaker 1: have enough time with the individuals that they wrapped, that

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Speaker 1: they wrapped up and deposited somewhere, as opposed to with

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Speaker 1: the dismembered remains, they had much more time in order

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Speaker 1: to facilitate this. And here's another kind of very ominous thing.

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Speaker 1: We've got a lot of shoreline here. We've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of this bay area and itself, and I beg

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Speaker 1: anybody that's not familiar with this area just to take

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Speaker 1: take a look the birds out view, you know, go

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Speaker 1: to one of the maps functions on your computer and

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Speaker 1: take a look at all the little inlets, these little

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Speaker 1: cozy coves that are through there. You have these little

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Speaker 1: islands of grass that occupy these spaces out there. You know,

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Speaker 1: access and oppertunity. You mentioned boat. Did this individual have

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Speaker 1: a boat that they were depositing these bodies in maybe

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Speaker 1: so okay, But if they have a boat, were they

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Speaker 1: trailering the boat or did they have a place where

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Speaker 1: they put in with their boat? Was there a common

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Speaker 1: boat ramp anywhere? And you know, you think about the

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Speaker 1: case up up in Fire Island with Karen was you know,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's in a watery environment. Did the individual

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Speaker 1: put in at a location up there and have her

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Speaker 1: body in the boat and decided to disperse the remains,

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Speaker 1: Because yeah, we've got a skull that's later found in

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Speaker 1: ten at Toby Island. And then we've got these legs

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Speaker 1: that were found back in ninety six, We're still missing arms,

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Speaker 1: We're still missing the torso where is it? Was it

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Speaker 1: scattered along the way? My thought relative to this, particularly

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Speaker 1: when it comes to dismemberment, the one forensic tie back

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Speaker 1: that we can look at all of these cases on,

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Speaker 1: and I mean all of them at is that. And

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Speaker 1: I've said this before, Are there any or is there

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Speaker 1: any evidence of tool marks, specific tool marks that are

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Speaker 1: used to dismember all of these individuals? What kind of

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Speaker 1: tool mark? If you're talking about somebody that's a hunter.

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Speaker 1: There are handheld bone saws that are out there. I

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Speaker 1: see them all the time where people can feel dressed

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Speaker 1: to deer with. Is that the type of saw that's

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Speaker 1: being used to take the body part? Is that a

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Speaker 1: power saw? Because if it's power saw, that changes your

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Speaker 1: dynamic Unless it's an electric saw. Well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how popular electric saws were and how robust they were

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety six. I know certainly they are now.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that would have been used because if

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Speaker 1: you use a power driven saw like with you know, electricity,

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Speaker 1: that's going to limit your ability to facilitate it as

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Speaker 1: opposed to something that's gas driven, like a chainsaw. Well,

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Speaker 1: if it's chainsaw, those marks in these bones are going

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Speaker 1: to be very, very distinctive. And I think finally kind

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Speaker 1: of as we you know, kind of shut this down

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Speaker 1: because there's going to be more to calm day. There

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Speaker 1: is the one thing I would have I would really

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Speaker 1: be curious about, particularly as it comes to skulls, because

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Speaker 1: in forensics and death investigation, skulls are significant in the

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Speaker 1: sense that when people attack individuals, the skull symbolizes something.

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Speaker 1: The head symbolizes something. First off, it is a point

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Speaker 1: of attack where if you're going to do great bodily

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Speaker 1: harm to someone, you would take a headshot, or you

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Speaker 1: would hit in the head with something. It's the center

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Speaker 1: of all that we do as humans, you know, because

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Speaker 1: our brain is contained in there. And to that point,

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Speaker 1: some people view the head as being a very powerful

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Speaker 1: element of the body. I think that somebody that's particularly

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Speaker 1: fixated on things like this might see the head as

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Speaker 1: something of a trophy, you know, just like we do

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Speaker 1: with deer. Here's the question, and given the amount of

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Speaker 1: time between when Karen's legs were found back in ninety

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Speaker 1: six and when her skull was discovered, had that skull

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Speaker 1: always been out there, or had it been something that

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Speaker 1: was retained for a number of years. And in forensics,

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Speaker 1: that's something that we can kind of figure out, because

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Speaker 1: a bone that's left to be out in the elements

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Speaker 1: begins to on the nature of the environment in which

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Speaker 1: it's found. However, if an individual has taken a skull

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Speaker 1: and they put value to that skull, for instance, maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe they strip it of all of its tissue, there

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Speaker 1: will be tool marks relative to that, little beings, little

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Speaker 1: cuts on the surface of the skull as tissue is

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Speaker 1: peeled away. And then did it sit in a box

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Speaker 1: somewhere on somebody's shelf where people would go back periodically

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Speaker 1: a person perhaps and hold it and fantasize it about it,

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Speaker 1: and then finally they got tired of it and they

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Speaker 1: went to a location and tossed it, maybe back in

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Speaker 1: twenty ten, and now it's just being discovered or has

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Speaker 1: that skull been sitting there since nineteen ninety six. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags