1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ. You know, 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: we haven't had a lot of guests this season, but 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: when we do have them, they are worth listening to. 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have to make sure they are worthy of 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: the podcast. No, that is not what we're saying. However, 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: this robes. Look, we've had guests on. It's an honor 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: to me and that we have much respect and our 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: fans of There's a different lane that our guest today occupies. 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: For me and probably you, there's a time in your life, 10 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: rightly from probably junior high, high school through the end 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 2: of college. Whatever music you were listening to in that 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: lane is the music you will die with. And one 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 2: of those musicians and some of those songs hit in 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: that lane. And that's who we got in the studio epically. 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: And you also know that you've made it when you're 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: known by one name, right you know, there aren't a 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of artists that you can just say one name 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: and you know exactly who it is and why you 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: love them. 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 3: And that is our next guest. 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: Her name is Jewel, and she is in studio. 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 2: Please welcome, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Jewel. 23 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: It's funny we were talking before you walked into the 24 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: studio about how many of us had your cassette tape 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: or your CD. I was listening to your music all 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: through college. Uh, and it was just it was the 27 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: soundtrack of my coming up and just so much of 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: what you wrote about was so relatable to all of us, 29 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: but it still is today. 30 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: So we are so honored to have you here. I'm 31 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: sure you hear that all the time. Oh, it's always 32 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: nice to hear. Thank you. 33 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: Keep it coming. That's not a problem. 34 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: I know I'm going to visit you guys more, but 35 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: you know. 36 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: It's hard to continue your enthusiasm. I tried to play 37 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: cool when you walked in, but I was as nervous 38 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: as all get out because Jewel is walking and I'm 39 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: glad I still get excited like that, even as a 40 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: forty eight year old guy. I am so honored to 41 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: meet you. This is just absolutely cool. Now, when you 42 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: were writing all that stuff at the time and performing, 43 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: were you making it for anybody other than you? Did 44 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: you have an eighteen year old freshman at the University 45 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: of Arkansas in mind when you were writing that stuff. 46 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: No, I, you know, really wrote as medicine for myself. 47 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: As music that I needed, it was words that I needed, 48 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: and to see that they helped other people and affected 49 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: them the same that they needed thouse words the same way. 50 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 3: It was really humbling, you know that record. None of 51 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 3: my career has been to try and get popular, was 52 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 3: try and get healthy, and people helped me on that journey. 53 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: You know, it was a very unpopular style of music 54 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: when it came out. It was kind of the height 55 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: of grunge and moving into like space Girl's era, which 56 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 3: is I love all of that, but it definitely wasn't 57 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 3: what I was, and so the fact that people supported 58 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 3: it so passionately changed the course of my life. 59 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: A young girl with her guitar and singing truth. You know, 60 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I think that authenticity and those lyrics are what hit 61 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: And obviously you have incredible musical talent, but I think 62 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: that being so open and honest and vulnerable that is 63 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: what brought so many people along with you. And for 64 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: fans of yours, I think they probably know your story, 65 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: but we'll try to hit a few of what got 66 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: you to sitting in this studio here in iHeart, but 67 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: you were a young girl who grew up in Alaska 68 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: with no running water, and you were on an Alaska homestead. 69 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: We were just talking about how your family has had 70 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: a documentary, a long running documentary about their way of life, 71 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: but you ended up homeless and living out of a 72 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: van by the age of what was that sixteen seventeen 73 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: eighteen when you were just on your own and it 74 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: was music that saved you. Were you always musical or 75 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: was this just about you journaling your feelings that turned 76 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: into song lyrics that led you to music. 77 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: My family were musical. They were raised on this homestead. 78 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 3: My grandparents came from Germany, escaped the Second World War 79 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: and were raised in the middle of nowhere, and so 80 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: my grandmother had taught them all to write poetry and 81 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: to paint and to write. They were homeschooled, and so 82 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: I was raised in this very creative family, very rural 83 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: and isolated, but also very creative. And so I moved 84 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: out at fifteen, very young. I knew that statistically movies 85 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: don't end well for kids like me, and I wanted 86 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 3: to see if happiness was a learnable skill. Was it 87 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: a teachable skill. I didn't grow up in a very 88 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: happy home, and so I set off in kind of 89 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: an ambitious mission to see if I could change the 90 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 3: outcome of my life. 91 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Wow, you said you didn't grow up in a happy home, 92 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: and do you think that. Obviously we're here to talk 93 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: about you have done so much powerful work in the 94 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: mental health space, and certainly that's become thankfully a growing 95 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: topic of conversation, something that I think was avoided for 96 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: so long that now we're so lucky to be a 97 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: part of this era where we actually are okay to 98 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: discuss it, to speak vulnerably, and to let people know 99 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: that they're not alone, which is the challenge, not alone challenge. 100 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: We'll get into all of that, but I wanted to 101 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: get into some of the backstory. Do you think think 102 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: you were situationally affected in the fact that your depression 103 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: or any of your mental health instability came from the 104 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: situation you were in, or do you think. 105 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 3: It was inherited? 106 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: At what point did you realize I need help or 107 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: I need to do something about this. 108 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I realized that I was unhappy, you know, 109 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 3: before I moved out. Moving out at fifteen is a 110 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 3: pretty extreme thing to do, to take on the responsibility 111 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: of paying rent and getting yourself to school and those things. 112 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 3: But for me personally, I realized I could live in 113 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: a cabin, you know, with you know, my mom left 114 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 3: when I was eight. My dad took over raising us, 115 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: and he had a very traumatic childhood. You know, as 116 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: you grow up, you learn more about your parents and 117 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: you can grow more empathy for what they lived through. 118 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: My dad raised me a lot better than he was raised, 119 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: but it still wasn't fun, you know, And so I 120 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 3: still decided to go ahead and move out. And see, 121 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: I realized that, you know, we learned these emotional languages 122 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 3: in our households, and I was very fluent in the language, 123 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: that emotional language by the time I was fifteen. And when, 124 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: you know, I realized, as much as you have a 125 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: genetic inheritance that might give you a predisposition to heart disease, 126 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: I had an emotional inheritance that gave me a predisposition 127 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: toward whatever addiction or abuse or all kinds of things, 128 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 3: and that this was sort of a legacy. And we're 129 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: learning so much more about epigenetics and how trauma can 130 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 3: be actually passed on generationally. I think for me, it 131 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: just was when I decided to stop making excuses of 132 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: I had a lot of reasons to be unhappy, but 133 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: I stopped wanting to have any excuses that I couldn't 134 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 3: be and taking on that responsibility and that mantle of saying, 135 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 3: there's if I put my mind to this, if I 136 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: make this the most important thing in my life, I 137 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 3: think I can get a change. 138 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: What age were you when that happened at that time? So, 139 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: but what happened? How did you get that? Maybe it 140 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: was just experience, but the idea of a fifteen year 141 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: old figuring that out and taking that on seems impossible 142 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: these days. What was it for you? Was it just 143 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: your upbringing? 144 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: Probably? I think being raised in nature. You know, I 145 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 3: was outside and it sound's funny, but I was taught 146 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: a lot. I was taught how to be a human 147 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 3: by watching nature. I can tell you, like lesson after 148 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: lesson that really guided me on my path and gave 149 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: me sort of a role model, if you will. And 150 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: reading a lot. I read a lot of philosophy and 151 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: just kind of learned to think critically through what I 152 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: was reading. And I also think it's kind of nice 153 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: when you don't have a safety net. There can be 154 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: perks to that, you know, if you can figure out 155 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: and realize, Like for me, when I realized nobody's coming 156 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: for me. Am I going to come for me? That 157 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 3: was a big moment. 158 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: You know. 159 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: Am I willing to do that? Am I willing to 160 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: step up? Or do I just want to complain that 161 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 3: I don't have a safety net, and so I didn't 162 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: take a lot of the same I don't know. I 163 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: didn't have the safety net other kids had, and so 164 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: I didn't experiment with drugs. I didn't. I was careful 165 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: in ways that some kids don't have to be because 166 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 3: you do have some margin of error there. You know, Wow, 167 00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 3: that's wild. 168 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: I was just saying, someone told me once, I'm successful 169 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: because I never had a plan B. This was it. 170 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: This was my one option, and I knew I had 171 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: nothing else to fall back on. That scared the hell 172 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: out of me because even sitting here, I feel like 173 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: I have some kind of a safety net. But that's 174 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: interesting to hear that at that age to figure that out. 175 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny you use that term because my daughter, 176 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: who just left the nest at twenty two, I have 177 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: said to her multiple times when she starts to get 178 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: anxious or worried because she's in and she's in an 179 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: artistic field as well, and that doesn't necessarily always pay 180 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: all the bills. And I told her, hey, I'm I'm 181 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: I am cutting you off. But obviously if you got 182 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: into a really difficult situation, I'm your safety net. 183 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: And it's funny. 184 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: Now I'm rethinking maybe I shouldn't have told her that. 185 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: No, it's important for us do better for it. It's 186 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 3: not fun. You always have just like do or die situations, 187 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: but it is motivated, like highly motivated. 188 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: But he could also go the other way if you 189 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: felt if you feel that alone and you feel that desponded, 190 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: was there a human at all who helped along the way. 191 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: Gosh, you know, a lot of my safety and how 192 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 3: I learned to survive was going alone. Being alone, it 193 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 3: was much harder for me, and I had to work 194 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: a lot harder when I was older to like trust connection, 195 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: trust relationship. So yeah, I'd say in those early years 196 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 3: it was reading a lot that helped it. And then 197 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: just introspection. I again, being raised without a television causes 198 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: you to enjoy being alone, thinking, sitting in silence, and 199 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 3: so I learned a lot of my behavioral tools and 200 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: like how to stop shoplifting, how to handle my panic 201 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: attacks just through introspection and kind of through trial and error, 202 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 3: and you know, if you can learn to channel your 203 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: stubbornness into a way that works for you, you know, 204 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: that helps build your life instead of tear your life down. 205 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: That again, like it kind of became a superpower, became 206 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 3: stubbornly focused on like one thing at a time. I'm 207 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 3: going to learn how to stop shoplifting. So what is it? 208 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 3: Why am I doing it? When do I do it? 209 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 3: What helps me to do it? And then starting to 210 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: get very curious that way. 211 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: You are describing something that people are spending thousands of 212 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: dollars in therapy trying to figure out. Right, what in 213 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: the world I think of a fifteen year old sixteen, seventeen, 214 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: eighteen figuring all this out. And I know you helped, 215 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: and mental health advocacy has been a huge part of 216 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: making sure young people and folks get access to help. 217 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: What was your other option in terms of mental health 218 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: help at that time, if you didn't just figure it 219 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: out on your own, did you have another option for 220 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: getting some type of healing and help. 221 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, there wasn't any kind of support. You know, I 222 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 3: was the type of kid that fell through cracks. I 223 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: made it through high school, I got a job in 224 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: San Diego taking I was taking care of a sick 225 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: relative and I had a job answering phones, and my 226 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 3: boss proposition to meet one day and you know, you 227 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: wouldn't give him a paycheck if I wouldn't sleep with them, 228 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: And luckily, being raised on a homestead, I was like, 229 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 3: I can live in a car. Thanks, you know, I'll 230 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: be on the street. I'm good, you know, And so 231 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: I think that was really helpful, just like going my 232 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: own way. And it was like while I was homeless 233 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: that I was like, oh my gosh. When I was fifteen, 234 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: I said on this ambitious mission to not be a statistic, 235 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 3: and here I am homeless in shoplifting, Like I'm still 236 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: a statistic eighteen yeah, despite like how hard I worked 237 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: to not be a statistic. And so I had to 238 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 3: really again look in the mirror and go I think 239 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: I remembered a stoic quote that was, happiness doesn't depend 240 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: on who you are, what you have, It depends on 241 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 3: what you think. And I was in this position where 242 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 3: I didn't have things, but I had what I thought, 243 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: and so I decided to see if I could turn 244 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 3: my life around one thought at a time, and that's 245 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 3: when I started tackling, like I call it a pain point, 246 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 3: one pain point at a time, and when I got successful, 247 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: I you know, misery is an equal opportunist. It doesn't 248 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: care if you're rich, white, black, poor, homeless, famous. It's 249 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: an equal opportunist. But to learn not to be miserable 250 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: is an education, and education costs many So therapy at 251 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 3: its best should be a re education and not everybody 252 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: has access to that, and that's unacceptable. There are real 253 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: tools that help, whether you're seeking professional guidance or not. 254 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 3: There are things you can do by yourself. And I 255 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 3: encourage connection and seeking help from other people, but if 256 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: you don't have that, there's still not a reason that 257 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 3: you can't find improvement. 258 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: Wow. May I ask what books you were reading, because 259 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,119 Speaker 1: they seem to have been incredibly powerful. 260 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: I didn't read self help books. I mean it was 261 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: I don't ever talk about the books I was reading, 262 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: but I was reading, yeah, a lot of philosophy. I 263 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 3: liked physics a lot. I liked reading about quantum physics 264 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: because I was like, gosh, if there's such a thing 265 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 3: as particle non locality, like the world is listening, Like 266 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 3: maybe I can make a difference in my life. It 267 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 3: made me feel empowered physics for some reason. Yeah wow, 268 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: And then oh sorry, how did that? How did you? 269 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: Then? I'm curious go from living in a van trying 270 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: not to be a statistic to becoming the world famous musician. 271 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: I mean, what was that timeline like? 272 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: And can you give us a sense of how that developed? 273 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? So when I was eighteen living in San Diego, 274 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: got propositioned by the boss, turned him down, started living 275 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 3: in my car, My car got stolen, I was homeless 276 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: for about a year. Started singing in a coffee shop, 277 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 3: not to get discovered, but because I was raised singing. 278 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: I grew up bar singing with my dad and we 279 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: got paid for it. And so I was like, I 280 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 3: couldn't hold a job down. I had bad kidneys. You 281 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: start looking homeless, you know, you don't have an address 282 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: to put on your application even like and it's just 283 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: it's hard to describe how tiring being homeless is, and 284 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: just looking for food, water and safety is a full 285 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: time job. And so I was like, what if I 286 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: could find a gigs singing. All the venues in town 287 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 3: wanted to charge me to sing there because people were 288 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: getting signed at that era was like the height of 289 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 3: the nineties, kind of gold rush of brunch, and I 290 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 3: was like, I'm not here to get discovered, Like I'm 291 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: here to just try and get a house. And so 292 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: I found a place going out of business, and I said, 293 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: can you keep your doors open for one month? Give 294 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 3: me one month, and I get to keep the door 295 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: money and you can keep the coffee and you know, 296 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: food sales. And so I started to get like two people, 297 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: and then twelve people, and then twenty people, and then 298 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 3: it was standing room only, and then it was two 299 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: shows a night, and then record labels started coming. It 300 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: was it was crazy. It was like it was really 301 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: living in a like being a Cinderella. 302 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: It was something sounds almost overnight, like how what was 303 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: that timeframe? You know? 304 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: It was interesting. I think it was about a year, 305 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: so that a year being homeless by the end of that. 306 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: And during that time I did develop tools to stop shoplifting, 307 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 3: to get a grip on my panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. 308 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: I got a real change in that. And so when 309 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: I got discovered again, I just looked at it really 310 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: practically and I was like, this probably isn't a great 311 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: idea for someone like me, because you read any autobiography 312 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: or watch any movie about a musician, they're all the same. Like, 313 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: fame doesn't seem to work out well for people, you know, 314 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: it leads to drugs and often death. And I was like, 315 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: I'm a real candidate for that, and I didn't want 316 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: to sacrifice the mental health ground that I had gained 317 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 3: to do something that I thought might be really risky, 318 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: which is God forbid I ever get famous. So I 319 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: almost turned it down. You know, I was offered a 320 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 3: million dollar signing bonus. I turned that down because I 321 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 3: read a book called Everything You Need to Know About 322 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: the Music Business, and I learned that that was in advance. 323 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: It was alone, basically, and it was alone against a 324 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 3: product I hadn't even made yet, which seemed ludicrous to do. 325 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 3: And so I made myself a promise one day on 326 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: the beach, I was like, my number one job is 327 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 3: to learn. I wrote to be a happy, whole human, 328 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 3: not a human full of holes, and that had to 329 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: be auditible and I had to have a system in 330 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 3: place for knowing like how do I know I'm doing better? 331 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: How do I know I'm doing worse? And being really 332 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: intentional about that and then my number two job was 333 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: to be a musician, and under that I wanted to 334 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: be an artist more than famous, and so armed with that, 335 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: I felt like if I could be loyal again, like 336 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: stubbornly loyal to that concept, I felt like I might 337 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: have a shot at handling whatever might get thrown my way. 338 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: Turned the money down, took a really big back end 339 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: so that if I ever sold albums, I would be rewarded, 340 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: and that really de risked me that way. A label 341 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: wouldn't drop me if I didn't sell records. You have 342 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: a big million dollar bounty, they really could drop you. 343 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: In sight, it's not worth it. Cutter losses, cutter loose, 344 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: And so I kind of started that way and then 345 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: went on to fail for several years. It's a very 346 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: good thing I didn't take that advance. And then slowly 347 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: things started to turn around. Bob Dylan took me out 348 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: on tour, and then Neil Young, and that's kind of just. 349 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: A few picked up, just you know, lesser known artists 350 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: out there. 351 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember when Bob took me out. I was like, 352 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 3: nobody knew me. But I was like Bob k new man. 353 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: I'm like, we're good I'm good. That's amazing. 354 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: Were there steps though you mentioned it you were concerned 355 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 2: about what being famous in the industry could do with 356 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: all the work you had done. Did you feel like 357 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: you took any steps back once the fame did come. 358 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: You know, life kept throwing things my way. I had. 359 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 3: The drama in my life continued. I wrote a book 360 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: called Never Broken, and people can kind of see at 361 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 3: a really difficult relationship with my mom that ultimately didn't 362 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 3: really come. I didn't come to terms with until I 363 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: was really thirty, and so I had a lot of 364 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 3: rough roads ahead of me. Still, fame I found to 365 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: be very traumatic. It is difficult to manage and handle 366 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 3: that much attention, that much energy, especially if somebody as 367 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 3: shy as me. I didn't know where it's like trauma 368 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 3: trigger But like one of my big triggers is like 369 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 3: strangers touching me. And when you're famous, people grab you. 370 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 3: They they turn you around, they like I hated it. 371 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: It's hard and it's hard to describe to people, but 372 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 3: it's and especially for a shy, introverted writer. I was like, 373 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: after my second album, I had to I had to 374 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 3: keep that promise to myself I made. I was like 375 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 3: this doesn't actually make me happy. I'm so thankful. I mean, 376 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 3: I've reached heights that were just impossible, and I love that, 377 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: and I love being an underestimated dark horse and winning, 378 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 3: like I'm for it. But it made me incredibly unhappy 379 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: and uncomfortable, and I realized I don't have to I 380 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: don't have to be this famous, and so I took 381 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: two years off and my fame went way down. I 382 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: could grocery shop, I didn't have to have bodyguards, and 383 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: I was like, okay, I actually do like music. I 384 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 3: just don't like the level of fame. And I gave 385 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: myself permission to not be that famous. And so that 386 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: just meant like changing genres, doing what I wanted creatively, 387 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: being willing to be hated, you know, or being told 388 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: you're washed up because you're not as popular as you 389 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: once were. All worth it. That's amazing. 390 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: It's funny because literally two weekends, I believe it was 391 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: tjes and like people touching him and he is more 392 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: introverted or people, so he just someone had just kind 393 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: of come up and touched us. And then he was like, man, 394 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: I just don't like it when people come up and 395 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: touch me. 396 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: Five four three two one. 397 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: A woman comes up from behind and bear hugs like 398 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: puts her arms around him, and he just bristled. But yes, 399 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: I and we only know a fraction of the fame 400 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: you experience, experience, but it is one of those moments 401 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: where you do feel like a piece of meat, like 402 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: a piece of property. And people do view you if 403 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: they like you, especially if they love your music, they 404 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: feel like they own you that way. Did you get 405 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: you have that experience and that that is not a 406 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: good feeling to have. 407 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's it's isolating to be adored when 408 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: they don't know you. And it's not that it's I mean, 409 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: of course it's flattering, I guess, but they don't know you. 410 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 3: They don't know if you're a good person. You know, 411 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 3: they don't know if I'm kind my child. So it's oddly, 412 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: it's hard to describe it. It's kind of an isolating thing 413 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: to be adored when you haven't earned it. And I 414 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 3: think it's equally isolating to be hated when you haven't 415 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 3: earned that either, And so it's kind of a singular 416 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 3: thing to live through. And for me, it just really 417 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: staying grounded and like I care about being a good human. 418 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 3: I'm going to task myself every day to be proud 419 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: of myself and you know, be on this journey till 420 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: the day I die. And then the rest was, like 421 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 3: my fans have to say, like I was really able 422 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 3: to communicate to them, like you guys can't touch me. 423 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 3: And I was able to talk to my fans always 424 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 3: on the internet and it's really helpful because they really 425 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 3: would listen to me. And then so this day, if 426 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: you see one of my fans that really follow me, 427 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 3: they put their hands up in a gusture of safety. 428 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: It's amazing. And they go Jewel and they say, about 429 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: this far from me, and they say, I just want 430 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 3: to tell you it's so household in me, like I 431 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 3: can handle that. 432 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: We walked in and now. 433 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: He did because my hand was out. That is funny. 434 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: I can't tell if I don't remember meeting people the 435 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: same way. 436 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 2: We're huggers here, we're huggers there. 437 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 3: That is a great chace to see exactly I can't remember. 438 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: And we'll have much more. With our conversation with Jewel. 439 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: We just couldn't stop talking and so we have a 440 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: lot more to get to. We're going to talk about 441 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: her Not Alone Challenge, something that began as something very 442 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: simple and turned into now a major event and awards 443 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: show in Vegas.