WEBVTT - Addressing the Existential Threat of Climate Change

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<v Speaker 1>Well, he is the former CEO of a massive consumer

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<v Speaker 1>products company, well known brands in the personal care space,

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<v Speaker 1>food space. I mean we're talking dub We're talking Hellman's

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<v Speaker 1>lipped in Ben and Jerry's Seventh Generation, Save so many more.

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<v Speaker 1>Harvard Business Review recently wrote that he first save UNI

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<v Speaker 1>Leaver and now he wants to save capitalism. You had

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<v Speaker 1>me at Ben and Jerry's, don't We had everybody at

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<v Speaker 1>Ben and Jerry's. So nice to have with us. Former

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<v Speaker 1>Uni Leaver CEO Paul Pullman. He's got a new book

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<v Speaker 1>out net Positive, how courageous companies thrive by giving more

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<v Speaker 1>than they take. He joins us on the phone in

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<v Speaker 1>the UK. Paul, So nice to have you here on Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you? Thanks for having me. It's a great opportunity. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's great to have you here. You know, first I

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<v Speaker 1>want to ask you, I mean, you were CEO coming

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<v Speaker 1>out of the financial crisis. You know, what do you

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<v Speaker 1>remember that time and where you're kind of glad not

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<v Speaker 1>to have to deal with this crisis as CEO of

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<v Speaker 1>a major global company. Well, there's so many change is

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<v Speaker 1>happening right now. We see the speak of change and

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<v Speaker 1>of the technological volution and the scale of the Industrial revolution.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't think it's easy to be a CEO

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<v Speaker 1>any time in history. But the financial time crisis what

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<v Speaker 1>was particularly tough because we really saw a big contraction

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<v Speaker 1>in emerging markets and big interventions from governments that were needed.

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<v Speaker 1>But it was clear to me already then that the

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<v Speaker 1>economic system needed to evolve to something that was more

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<v Speaker 1>inclusive and frankly, more sustainable. That's what we set out

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<v Speaker 1>in Unilever to do already back in two thousand eight,

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<v Speaker 1>and over the ten years of my tenure, that has

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<v Speaker 1>helped us show that business can be done differently, but

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<v Speaker 1>that it ultimately is also good for the shareholds. Have

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<v Speaker 1>you been concerned that the current crisis that we're facing

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<v Speaker 1>as as a as a globe, as a global community,

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<v Speaker 1>the coronavirus pandemic is going to further set back those

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<v Speaker 1>those goals of being a more equal society, being more

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<v Speaker 1>just society. Well, if I may be honest, even if

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<v Speaker 1>the financial crisis we missed an opportunity and people felt

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<v Speaker 1>that banks were too big to fail and people were

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<v Speaker 1>too small to matter, and the governments did not really

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<v Speaker 1>use that opportunity to channel the funds into creating a greener,

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<v Speaker 1>more sustainable, more equitable society. COVID again is a stark

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<v Speaker 1>reminder and that we can't have healthy people on an

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<v Speaker 1>unhealthy planet. And I think it has brought to light

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<v Speaker 1>complexities of our system, the biodiversity destruction, climate change, inequality,

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<v Speaker 1>the racial dimensions as you've seen, especially in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>and that has uh put many of these things higher

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<v Speaker 1>on the agenda of the business community. And the reason

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<v Speaker 1>for the net positive is I think most people understand

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<v Speaker 1>what is happening now around climate change or inequality and

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<v Speaker 1>trying to move in the right direction, but collectively we're

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<v Speaker 1>clearly not moving at the speed and scale and recognizing

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<v Speaker 1>the difficulties that we see in many countries and developed

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<v Speaker 1>around governance or or global multilateralism if you want to.

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<v Speaker 1>The book would argue that it is in businesses interests

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<v Speaker 1>to step up and fill that point and healthy risk

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<v Speaker 1>that political process. How do we get here, Paul and

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<v Speaker 1>I asked, because look at the macro problems we have

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<v Speaker 1>right now. You know, inequities, incredible wealth gaps, We're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the energy crisis, We're talking about climate and the

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<v Speaker 1>impact that we've had, and maybe it's just getting too late, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>the inability and maybe food feed everyone. Did companies become

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<v Speaker 1>too greedy? Well, it is clear that the current economic

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<v Speaker 1>system that we've had with infinite growth on the finite

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<v Speaker 1>planet is really not sustainable and anything you can do

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<v Speaker 1>uh continuously is by definition not not possible. So we

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<v Speaker 1>need to change our economic system and be sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we are pivoted in a way that we take care

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<v Speaker 1>of planet Earth and also a fellow citizens. And the

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<v Speaker 1>most existential threat we now have, without any doubt is

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<v Speaker 1>climate change. But we and the other side of the

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<v Speaker 1>coin that we've seen is that when we kept these

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<v Speaker 1>issues nowaday after day, nearly on television or any other media,

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<v Speaker 1>it's again the poor that suffered the most. COVID has

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<v Speaker 1>put us back on the sustainable development goals probably fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years. So there is no doubt that we need

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<v Speaker 1>to work harder. The option of not doing anything and

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<v Speaker 1>and going to a crisis like COVID again at the

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<v Speaker 1>accelebrated phase and more often is simply not an option.

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<v Speaker 1>I've never really felt that to be reasonable, and unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>we still have a lot of the opportunities to address

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<v Speaker 1>it and to to figure out something better that would

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<v Speaker 1>serve us in future generations. Paul, I'm curious about your

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<v Speaker 1>path to becoming CEO, because I did read that you

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<v Speaker 1>were considering becoming a priest, you were in line of

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<v Speaker 1>to go join the priesthood or a doctor as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious how that impacts you're thinking, impacted you're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>as a CEO. Well, I was born in nineteen fifty six,

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<v Speaker 1>and I always thought there was a long time after

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<v Speaker 1>World War Two, but it actually was fairly short. And

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<v Speaker 1>I grew up in a family where my parents were

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<v Speaker 1>deprived education because of the war. So all they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>is peace in Europe. The communities to work ensure that

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<v Speaker 1>there's six children called education, and frankly had a better

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<v Speaker 1>life than than they did. So I think at the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the day, I was fortunate, um that I

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<v Speaker 1>had these parents and who put the interest of others

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<v Speaker 1>ahead of their own, and and they firmly believed that

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<v Speaker 1>they would be better off by doing that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's how I grew up and and it brought

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<v Speaker 1>me values of dignity, respect, equity, compassion that I've tried

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<v Speaker 1>to live my life was I've always realized that having

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<v Speaker 1>been born in the Mettlands. I've just been lucky. The

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<v Speaker 1>government paid for my education, I had a toilet at home,

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<v Speaker 1>I had some food, so I wasn't stunned that. Unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>that's only the case for five of the world population

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<v Speaker 1>that that privileged position, and yet they didn't do anything

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<v Speaker 1>for it. So I want the lottery ticket off verse,

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<v Speaker 1>if you call it that. And I've always felt it's

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<v Speaker 1>our obligation to put ourselves to the service of others,

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<v Speaker 1>to ensure that that in consumption for everybody, So priesthoods

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<v Speaker 1>or being a doctor or now being in business actually

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately is the same purpose. How can you have the

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<v Speaker 1>best impact who helped ensure the changes that are needed? Paul,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to be honest with you, and Tim and

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<v Speaker 1>I have been talking and people, you know, we get

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of feedback this whole idea that companies that

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<v Speaker 1>have got us into a predicament in some ways, have

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<v Speaker 1>contributed to climate change, have helped create wealth gaps, have

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<v Speaker 1>done a lot of things that have put us in

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<v Speaker 1>not a great way today. How how can we really

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<v Speaker 1>rely on them to be ethical, responsible and get us

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<v Speaker 1>out of it. Yeah, I don't disagree with that statement,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have that same skepticism. Obviously, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these issues that we know deal with have craft up

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<v Speaker 1>on us, and our incredible wealth creation and lifting so

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<v Speaker 1>many people out of poverty over the last four or

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<v Speaker 1>five decades has been incredible and we should be rejoicing

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<v Speaker 1>in that. Unfortunately, though, we've done that in a linear

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<v Speaker 1>production pattern that is giving us enormous pressures on the

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<v Speaker 1>planetary boundaries. This year, World over shoot Day was July

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nine, which is the day that we use up

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<v Speaker 1>more resources then the world can be planets. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>after that day, we're stealing from future generations. Now, increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>businesses are starting to understand that that is an unsustainable

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<v Speaker 1>way of running businesses. The financial market seas that has

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<v Speaker 1>an increasing risk. The employees that worked for the companies

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<v Speaker 1>want to live in a better weld, The citizens are

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<v Speaker 1>speaking up, So I think there's a ground swell of

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<v Speaker 1>action happens to be. Fortunately still that in today's well

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<v Speaker 1>the business community has held at a higher level of

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<v Speaker 1>trust than governments. And whilst we in our book deliberately

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to get into finger pointing, we say the

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<v Speaker 1>first thing that businesses have to do is to own

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<v Speaker 1>the problem. If you break it, you own it is

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<v Speaker 1>what we call it, just like happens in the store

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<v Speaker 1>when you break a couple uh that you wanted, that

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<v Speaker 1>you didn't buy or whatever. So businesses need to go

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<v Speaker 1>look at their total impact and take responsibility for that,

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<v Speaker 1>and that takes leadership, That takes courage, and then they

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<v Speaker 1>look at the negative consequences of some of their business

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<v Speaker 1>models and try to work very hard, first alone, then

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<v Speaker 1>in their value chain, then at industry level, or finally

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<v Speaker 1>at societal level to drive the needed chances. And that

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<v Speaker 1>is starting to happen. You look at climate. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's now undeniable that we have an issue of climate chance.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's also clear that the costs that society are

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<v Speaker 1>incurring five point nine trillion all of us, according to

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<v Speaker 1>the I m F significantly hired. And actually what it

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<v Speaker 1>would cost us two attack it partners would be the

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<v Speaker 1>photom to realize that, Paul, are the incentives aligned though,

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<v Speaker 1>Because here we are, we're in the fourth quarter of

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<v Speaker 1>the year, We're about to start getting earnings from companies,

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<v Speaker 1>and the numbers that move the company's stock are revenue

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<v Speaker 1>and UH bottom line forecasts and how the companies did

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<v Speaker 1>in the previous quarter. There's nothing in there about environmental impact,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what investors are focused on. Well, yes, I

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<v Speaker 1>know what we now see in the shareholder proxy season

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<v Speaker 1>that you just close that most of the questions are

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<v Speaker 1>around E s G. You ask. You see shareholders asking

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<v Speaker 1>uh x on to change board members. You see shape

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<v Speaker 1>from being attacked. You see ninety tillion dollars of money

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<v Speaker 1>on the management now in the financial markets asking for

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<v Speaker 1>disclosure on carbon you see Larry Pink writing is letters

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<v Speaker 1>friend guard. I think we're past that point. We also

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<v Speaker 1>see that if companies make announcements, significant announcements to do

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<v Speaker 1>something about it, that that actually their share price gets

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<v Speaker 1>positively affected. We've looked by industry sector, just comparing within

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<v Speaker 1>a sector companies and companies that more aggressively attack these

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<v Speaker 1>externalities actually seem to get a higher market value now

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<v Speaker 1>as well. So we would argue just the opposite that

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<v Speaker 1>if you want a longer term shareholder return, short term

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<v Speaker 1>you can always speculate, but if you want a longer

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<v Speaker 1>term shareholder return, it is now better to do that

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that also deals with the environmental and

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<v Speaker 1>social issues. That will say some unfortunately, more and more

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<v Speaker 1>CEOs are understanding that. It is just that I think

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have to spend too much time anymore on

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<v Speaker 1>the why, which is really your question, but more on

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<v Speaker 1>the how. And this is where they struggle. Well, when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to how. You write in the book about

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<v Speaker 1>a net positive world right, and you talk about redefining

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<v Speaker 1>the corporation, that the corporate world is zeroing in on

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<v Speaker 1>better metrics with a sup of new initiatives and acronyms

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<v Speaker 1>are popping up. And you know, in this section you

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<v Speaker 1>talk about, you know, what would it mean if companies

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<v Speaker 1>had to pay for the natural capital and resources that

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<v Speaker 1>they used for free? None of the biggest industries would

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<v Speaker 1>be profitable. And then you also ask what what would

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<v Speaker 1>a company look like if citizens, not shareholders were the focus.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we need new metrics, whether it's from the SEC

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<v Speaker 1>or European regulators or Asian regulators in terms of what

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<v Speaker 1>really is a successful company? And I do wonder how

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<v Speaker 1>the capital markets, the financial markets that Tim and I

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<v Speaker 1>report on minute by minute every day, makes it complicated

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe impossible for new metrics to be created. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>there is a lot of effort going on around the

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<v Speaker 1>globe actually to create these methods, measures because people increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>see that these environmental issues like climate chains, or these

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<v Speaker 1>social issues like resilience in your value chain or employee

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<v Speaker 1>engatesment eutchet uh are actually of material importance, and increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>the financial community is asking for it. Unfortunately, until now

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<v Speaker 1>we have not had governments that were in some countries

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<v Speaker 1>conclusive to put in that direction, and as a result

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<v Speaker 1>we have a little bit of an alphabet soup. Assion

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned was about six hundred different efforts to put standards

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<v Speaker 1>out there. Fortunately someone has thought about it, and on

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<v Speaker 1>climate were increasingly rolling out the standards of financial Disclosure

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<v Speaker 1>for Climate related risks, which are called TCFD. We now

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<v Speaker 1>have over two thousand, three hundred companies supporting that. We

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<v Speaker 1>have about forty five companies countries implementing that, and that

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<v Speaker 1>is from basically zero a year ago. We have the

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<v Speaker 1>SEC getting increasingly interested in looking at some of these

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<v Speaker 1>measures for matt reality reasons. Europe has the European Taxonomy,

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<v Speaker 1>and last but not least, the i f r S

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<v Speaker 1>is working quite aggressively on creating the sustainable standard boards.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are things happening on that front, and rather

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<v Speaker 1>sooner than later. Hey, forgive me thirty seconds quickly. Is

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<v Speaker 1>there a company other than you know Leaver that you

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<v Speaker 1>think is getting it right with this and just quickly

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<v Speaker 1>if you could, Oh, No, there are many companies that

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<v Speaker 1>get it right. We see now companies like Google wanting

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<v Speaker 1>to put their system to the use of consumers and

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<v Speaker 1>helping consumers make better choices in purchasing or investing in companies.

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<v Speaker 1>We see companies like Belta Order Airlines now making commitments

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<v Speaker 1>to be net zero by twenty fifty. We see companies

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<v Speaker 1>now trying to go to the net positive direction. Walmart

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<v Speaker 1>restoring forests, protecting oceans, Salesforce replanting forest, Microsoft trying to

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<v Speaker 1>capture govern or Juice since their inception Noah, the trainers

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.000
<v Speaker 1>left the station. We just need to get more companies

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<v Speaker 1>and then as these companies work together with governments to

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<v Speaker 1>change some of the frameworks that are out there. Well, Paul,

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<v Speaker 1>nice to get some time with You really appreciate pop

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<v Speaker 1>Home and former you know Leaver ceo his book Net Positive,

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<v Speaker 1>how courageous companies thrive by giving more than they take.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of problems to solve, a lot of problems

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<v Speaker 1>to solve um WA's optimistic phil Yeah, I'm gonna be

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<v Speaker 1>optimistic to have a great evening. Everyone