WEBVTT - Chatelain on New Book 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.040 All right. We are, of course in the thick of 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:04.360 earning season this week, and McDonald's was one of the 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:08.800 companies that reported uh some disappointing numbers from the restaurant company, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:13.000 of course, because of COVID nineteen interruptions. In addition, the 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.600 company this week said it will step up efforts to 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.680 fight racism by addressing hiring biases and increase the diversity 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:23.080 of its leadership and doing more to attract diverse franchisees. 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.760 So on that note, we want to bring in our 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.000 next guest, Marcia Chatlin. She is a professor of history 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:33.839 and African American Studies at Jason's alma mater, Georgetown University. 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.880 There you go, who has written this wonderful book It 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.000 came out earlier this year called Franchise the Golden Arches 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.080 in Black America to really tie together how fast food 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.599 and civil rights and Black America came together in this 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.200 powerful way. Professor Chatlin, thank you so much for joining 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.560 us today. Just give us an overview here about how 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.960 and why McDonald's became so important to Black America and 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:02.440 in Black America. Well, the story of McDonald's and Black 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.520 America starts in Night After the assassination of Dr Martin 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.800 Luther King Jr. And essentially, at this moment, like our 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.440 moment today, people were really reflective about the various pressures 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.440 that were happening in predominantly African American communities that had 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.039 been cut off from resources. And in addition to many 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.040 of the concerns of communities, people said that they would 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.920 like to see more black owned businesses. And this was 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.120 a moment in which a lot of corporations were shifting 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.920 in that direction. And so McDonald was a leader in 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.760 the sense in recruiting African American franchise owners to go 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.640 into African American communities and to build McDonald's the brand 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.200 as well as use their restaurants as a way to 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.640 reinvest in communities. And so how did it come about? 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.280 I mean, because there must have been some sort of candidly, 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.800 you know, just knowing a little bit about the history, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.560 some tricky mechanics and politics around that at the time, 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.120 especially in the sixties, Dr Chatlin, help us understand those 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:08.400 right is a really pivotal moment because the mainstream civil 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.679 rights movement um is trying to decide what direction it 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.440 should take, and having having seen so many legislative victories 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.440 in the nineteen sixties, but not actually seeing this translate 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.560 into economic opportunity, better schools, better access to housing. A 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.920 number of leaders and civil rights movement really wanted to 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.720 work with business and corporations to bring in these opportunities. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.919 In addition to that, many white franchise owners no longer 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.400 wanted to do business in group in communities that were 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.680 becoming increasingly black, or were segregated and all black. And 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.840 so you see this convergence of an economic white flight 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.000 as well as the support of the civil rights movement. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.280 And then you have President Richard Nixon who is investing 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.960 in this idea of black capitalism where he's putting money 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.440 in business. But one of the things that I think 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.519 is important to note is that none of these approaches 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.560 necessarily get at the root causes of structural inequality. But 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.880 you start to see business becoming part of the conversation. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.399 Business becomes part of the conversation, and it becomes part 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.679 of the community. You write about how these black owned 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.840 franchises of McDonald's shape the community around them. They it 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.399 goes beyond providing jobs. They play a leading cultural role. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.600 Talk a little bit about that, right, So, African American 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.280 franchise owners take on the role that black business owners 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.680 have historically taken on, and that means that they're providing 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:42.240 other resources and communities because of the color line in 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:46.840 government services and opportunities. So they're underwriting youth programs at schools, 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.840 They're making sure that first jobs are actually being created 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.320 in the communities. They are sponsoring things like the early 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.280 Martin Luther King Jr. Holiday. So you start to see 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.000 their influence not just in the business sector, but for history, 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.680 really black colleges and universities for the creation of the 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:08.760 All American basketball team. And so these black franchise owners 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:14.120 become incredibly visible and incredibly popular in these communities because, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.960 as I say in my book, these communities are cut 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:21.839 off from federal resources and other types of opportunities in 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:26.080 order to have their needs met. So Dr Chaplin, how 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.039 far does it extend beyond McDonald's, because we do know 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:36.720 that today in the gap in wealth between Black Americans 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.719 and white Americans is massive. Why didn't this catch on 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.479 more beyond McDonald's. Well, I think that the reality is 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.680 is that you can't solve robust and complex and deep 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:54.200 social problems simply by um having business lead the way 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.200 that we have a public sphere, we have public policy, 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.159 we have public resources like taxes in order to do that. 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.520 But what it does reveal is that this moment that 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.880 McDonald's is in right now saying that they stand for 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.440 black lives donating to the c P, it's not new. 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.760 We have a fifty year plus history of McDonald's inserting 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.000 itself into the civil rights struggles so that they can 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.320 appear that they're on the right side of history. But 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.400 in this early period when McDonald's was extending the opportunity 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.960 for franchising, people did not have the full understanding of 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:31.159 the consequences of fast food on the American diet, as 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.920 well as the concerns about wages in the industry. Today, 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.400 supporting Black Lives visa v. McDonald's has more to do 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:44.520 with the quality of work and benefits and providing for 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.880 its people than some of these other solutions from the past. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.880 Very well said, and I'm struck also by the parallels 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.799 to today, this idea that um companies, the private sector 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.760 kind of pick up the slack when the government, the 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.600 government up is unwilling or can't provide a lot of 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:08.920 the funding. How did you come to writing this book, well, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.080 I was concerned about that very issue. I think that 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.200 this book is a story about how these relationships are complicated. 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.960 On one hand, we can't say that we're concerned about 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.960 the gap in nutrition and help outcomes and access in 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.720 African American communities without understanding the history of how fast 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.800 food became such a presence in certain parts of our country. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.240 And we can't say that it's simply a matter of 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:39.560 giving people food choices and then they'll follow without understanding 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.080 the other kinds of relationships that businesses have with communities. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.040 And we also have to remember that if we want 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.279 to solve problems, we have to invest in the public good, 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.800 the public sphere, and we can't allow corporations to lead 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:59.279 the way. So, Professor Challen, you've made a number of 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.800 references inviously. The book is set in many ways or 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.560 takes its uh takes its beginning from things that were 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.520 happening in the sixties, and he mentioned night there have 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.480 been so many parallels drawn, and we are just by 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.679 coincidence speaking to you on the day where the first 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:21.160 black president just eulogized someone who was deeply involved in 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.440 civil rights from the sixties on. You know talking about 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:29.840 the late John Lewis tell us the historical lens that 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.640 you used to look at in comparing and not just 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:40.280 limiting to to business n and there's so many parallels here. Well. 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.440 One of the things that I was struck. I had 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.640 the opportunity to serve on a panel with Congressman Lewis, 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.680 and he described the moment after the teen election as 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.239 some of the most challenging and trying of his life, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.480 which is an incredibly um poignant thing to hear from 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.240 someone who lived through so many times of turmoil. But 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.760 I think that at both moments sixty eight and today, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.600 we have a growing consciousness among a larger group of 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.200 people about the problems of racial injustice. We are also 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.120 in the middle of a serious crisis with COVID, but 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.640 in eight we also saw the escalation of war in Vietnam, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.160 and I think that the central question for all of 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.280 us is how do we step up and make sure 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.840 that communities get the resources they need. And like I 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:30.000 think today, there has been allowed of gestures on the 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.560 part of the private sector, but we're not seeing enough 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:40.480 in terms of again a government led public approach to 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:44.040 solving the problems of racial inequality. If sixty eight taught 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.720 us anything is that the businesses did not solve the 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.840 problems of racial injustice. It's on all of us in 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:54.120 communities in order to strategize to solve those problems. Yeah, 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.520 business can only go so far and should only go 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.800 so far because it's not their responsibility stimately, So as 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.520 we look ahead, um, at some point, the Trump administration 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.800 will end, whether it's after this November or four novembers 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.760 from now. What are you hearing from those who are 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.520 trying to run for office, whether it's the Biden campaign 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:20.360 or other political leaders that encourage you inter in so 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.920 far as thinking about how government is more committed to 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.840 ensuring more racial quality. Well, one of the things that 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.600 I think has been wonderful with the kind of what 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.160 they say the left wing party of the Democrats, the 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.839 Progressive Democrats, is that they're asking really good questions about 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.160 what does it mean for us to solve these problems. 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.920 They're not saying, um, simply all money should just be 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:46.720 poured into problems. It's being thoughtful again about wages, about 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.360 access to housing, about how we're going to make sure 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.400 that we have the best health care system possible. So 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.640 we don't see another tragedy like the ones that we're 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.200 living through. And so what I think is happening is 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:02.000 that people are becoming more critical of UM, how business 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.720 is conducted, there being more thoughtful about inviting problem solvers 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.240 who will really care about the quality of human life 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.560 and the dignity and the way people live. And I 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.360 think also in this you know, incredible moment, we see 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.800 the reinvigoration of the Poor People's Campaign UM with Reverend 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.880 William Barber who's saying that we actually have to have 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.520 the political will to solve the problems of poverty. And 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.920 so I think what we're having right now is this 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.240 incredible reckoning and it's up to all of us to 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.720 see it as a real moment to move closer and 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.560 closer to the kind of justice that John Lewis deserved 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.400 to see in his lifetime. Dr Chadlin, one last question 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.439 for you before we let you get back to it. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.440 I do wonder, you know, as someone who is teaching 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.320 these issues and we are all living through, you know, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.679 this moment in history, how does it change your curriculum? 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.480 What what are you gonna say to your students come fall? 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.679 And obviously I know enough to be angers about how 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.640 Georgetown is going to be organized. I know it's going 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.160 to be a hybrid uh situation, but but what do 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.480 you think about differently as you approach this next semester 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:12.920 while we just announced for going all online, and I 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.120 think right now for students, we need to see this 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.520 moment as not just a source of angst, but this 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:25.080 incredible opportunity because COVID and racial justice protests, all of 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.959 these things are giving us an opportunity to take a 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:33.360 closer look at where our society has failed. And we 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.960 have these incredible opportunities to really deliberate on how to 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.920 solve the problem. And so I think for my students, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.679 what I want them to understand is that another world 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.520 is possible that in people couldn't see around the corner, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.640 and so they do the best they could. But with 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.520 the knowledge of more history and with the knowledge um 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.160 that comes with more time, how are we going to 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:59.120 approach problems differently and how our generations in the future, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.319 how are they going to see us and are they 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.400 going to be empathetic or are they going to be 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.720 critical of the things that we did and the things 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.000 that we failed to do well? Said Marcia Chaplin. She 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.600 is a professor of history and African American Studies at 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:15.360 one of the best universities in the world. I'm just 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.480 Georgetown University. Also author of the terrific book franchise, The 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.320 Golden Arches in Black America, incredibly timely out now pick 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.360 it up. It's a great read. Gives you so much 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:32.320 perspective on the economics of the racial question here and 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.160 the history, the complicated history, and the troubling history of 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:37.240 Black America.