1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Hey, lady, is doctor dim here. If you like this 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: show and you want to make your own, let me 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: tell you about the free platform Anchor. It's a creation 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: tool that allows you to record and edit your podcast 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: right from your phone or computer. You can add songs 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: from Spotify and create any type of content that you 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: are looking for. Anchor will distribute it all for you 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: so it can be heard on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Download the free Anchor app or go to anchor dot 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: fm to get started. 11 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: On this week's episode in her Space. 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: The person experiencing the loss just needs the language to say, 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: I'm experiencing a loss. And so even though today we 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: are going through and we're saying this is what ambiguous 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: loss is. A loss is a loss is a loss. 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: And if a person is saying that they've experienced the loss, then, 17 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: just like you pointed out, the key is to offer 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: that person empathy. 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: Today's episode is sure to provide you with motivation, inspiration, 20 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: or even a fresh perspective. If you have any AHA moments, 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 2: or if you feel comforted throughout the episode, lady, please 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: leave us a review and tell us what we're doing 23 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: right so we can stay on track. Also, we release 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: episodes every Friday, so be sure to subscribe on iTunes 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: and visit Herspace podcast dot com and enter your email 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: address to get updates about our live events and all 27 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: of the new beginnings that we have for this year. 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: Than Welcome to her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: women like you. We're your Costs Doctor Dominique Broussard, a 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: college professor and psychologist. 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: And Terry Lomax, a techie and a motivational speaker. In 32 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: a world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood, 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: please join us as we initiate authentic conversations on every 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: from fibroids to fake friends, and create a safe space 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: where black women can just be Hey lady, it's Terry 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: here from the Heirspace podcast and I have some exciting 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: news for you. I just published my self help book, 38 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: How to Glow Up as You Grow Up. Your go 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: to guide for overcoming obstacles and making lemonade. So if 40 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: you've ever experienced loss, childhood, trauma, a narcissistic partner, or depression, 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: this book is just for you. If you visit glowupbook 42 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: dot com again, that's glow upbook dot com, you can 43 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: order your copy today and you will surely be inspired. 44 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: So I hope that you decide to join me on 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: this journey and I'll see you soon. 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: Our quote of the day I wanted a perfect ending. 47 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: Now that I've learned the hard way, some poems don't rhyme, 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: and stories don't have a clear beginning, middle, or end. 49 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Life is about not knowing, having to change, taking the 50 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: moment and making the best of it without knowing what's 51 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: going to happen next tea. For me, that quote perfectly 52 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: sums up our topic for today, you know, discussing ambiguous loss. 53 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: It's spot on. This is an amazing quote, and you 54 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: know what it reminds me of as you were reading it. 55 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: It makes me think about remember the episode we did. 56 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: I think it may have been like a year in review. 57 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: It was the end of twenty nineteen, and I talked 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: about this new perspective that I was going to go 59 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: into the new year with, where instead of thinking about 60 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: the years like everything's going to be amazing, I was 61 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: going to be realistic and know that life is about cycles. 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: Do you remember that conversation vatically about Yeah, it's about seasons. 63 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: It's about cycles. So there may be lost there may be, 64 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: you know, something crazy may happen, And what a time 65 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: to shift that perspective, because we know the twenty twenty 66 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: was a goddamn hell of it here, right, And so 67 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: I think about this quote and it's like, our life 68 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: is about not knowing, having to change, taking the moment, 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: and making the best of it. And that literally speaks 70 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 2: to the topic of the day. Like you said, wow, 71 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: is this a new term for you, ambiguous loss or grief? 72 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: Because this is a new term, although I've experienced it. 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: Before, so putting a name to it is fairly recent 74 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: for me, but like you said, the experience of it 75 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: is not new. So interestingly enough, the term was first 76 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: coined by psychologist doctor Pauline Boss in the nineteen seventies. 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, And so she coined this term ambiguous 78 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: laws because she was working with military families and we 79 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: know that sometimes, like particularly like with PTSD, like a 80 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of psychological terminology comes from the work that psychologists 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: are doing with our military families because just their experiences 82 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: as a whole shed so much light on psychological functioning 83 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: in general. And so doctor Boss coined this term to 84 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: kind of differentiate between those feelings of not having any 85 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: verification of the death of a loved one, or not 86 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: having any certainty that that person will come back, or 87 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: that they will return the way they left, or how 88 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: a situation used to be right. And that's to differentiate 89 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: it from that we have a clear definition of right. 90 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: So speaking of it from like a military family perspective, 91 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: you have if someone is off at war and they 92 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: are killed in combat and their body is shipped back 93 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: to the family and the family gets to have a 94 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: funeral or whatever their religious practice is to say goodbye 95 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: to that person, and they get to either see that 96 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: person or if maybe that person's been cremated, they can 97 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: interact with the ashes. But there's some concreteness with that closure, 98 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: some closure, right, yeah, but with an ambiguous loss. Think 99 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: about that family member who their military family member was 100 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: killed in combat but they never found the body. So 101 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: this family gets this phone call that their loved one 102 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: was killed in combat, but they don't necessarily have to 103 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: get that closure, that same type of closure because they 104 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: don't get the person in the physical form, and so 105 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: they're still grieving and that's still a loss, but it's ambiguous. 106 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: Wow, that's tough. I mean, my heart definitely goes out 107 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: to folks that have had those experiences. I'm looking at 108 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: the list that we have of like types of ambiguous loss. 109 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: You have immigrants, missing home, country, addiction, divorce, aging parents, 110 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: terminal illness, incarceration, changing normal routine i e. COVID nineteen 111 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: and other natural disasters and pandemics, and then catastrophes like war, 112 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: slave region aside and again natural disasters, and it's just like, wow, 113 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: you know many of us had those experiences, but it 114 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: is really helpful to have terminology that kind of goes 115 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: along with what you're experiencing because there's difference, right, There's 116 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: a difference between a loss where and I say closure, 117 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: I use that lightly because oftentimes when we experience loss, 118 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you don't always get closure, even though you 119 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: have that concreteness there, right, Like even though you see 120 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: a body, there's still levels to it. But I love 121 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: this one sort of overview down of like ambiguous loss 122 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 2: and the two types just so we can kind of 123 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: further understand like really means right. 124 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So the first one is when there's a 125 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: physical absence with the psychological presence, right, So what this 126 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: means is like the situation I gave with someone who 127 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: is killed in combat. Right, So essentially what we're saying 128 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: is that the person is is physically missing or gone, right, 129 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: but psychologically we are still left with the impact. Right, 130 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: there's still this this psychological presence. So other examples of 131 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: this type of like physical absence that still has a 132 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: psychological presence would be terrorism. If we think about what 133 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: happens in other countries of and some might argue to 134 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: an extent happens here ethnic cleansing and genocide. What is 135 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: more likely for us to identify with here? More people 136 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: can definitely identify with this here is natural disasters, earthquake, flooding, 137 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: tsunamis right, divorce, option, or losing physical contact with a 138 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: family member or friend due to immigration, right. And so 139 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: what that really kind of looks like again, is that 140 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: the person or thing, because if we think about natural disasters, 141 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: some of it is not necessarily loss of life for people, 142 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: but it may be loss of their home, and so 143 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: that person or thing is not physically there, but their 144 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: presence is felt psychologically exactly. 145 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really grateful for this terminology and the research 146 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: done on this, because I think oftentimes when there is 147 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: no language, it's hard to understand. 148 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: Right, hard to have empathy. 149 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: It's hard to be compassionate towards so and when you 150 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: just don't get it. And so I love that we 151 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: have language for this takes us to the second type, 152 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: which occurs when there is psychological absence with physical presence. 153 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: And these are all just so tough my heart. I 154 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: feel like my heart strings are just being pooled thinking 155 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 2: about these because I know of personal experiences and things 156 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: that other people experience. And so this second type of 157 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: ambiguous loss, right, this speaks of a loved one that 158 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 2: is psychologically absent, right, so emotionally or cognitively gone right 159 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 2: or missing. So this occurs from Alzheimer's disease, other dementia's, 160 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 2: traumatic brain injury, addiction, depression, or other chronic mentor or 161 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 2: physical illnesses that take away a loved one's mind or memory. 162 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: And psychological ambiguous losses can also result from obsessions or 163 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: preoccupations with losses that never make sense, right, so infant depths, 164 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: some suicide. I mean, this is definitely a heavy, heavy 165 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: topic and I feel like now we should definitely transition 166 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 2: into story time because I know one thing about our 167 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 2: podcast is like it does help to just hear other 168 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: people you know who have coped with various losses, you know, 169 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: or just various experiences that you lady can relate to 170 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: as you listen to the podcast. And so one thing 171 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: that came to mind for me, dom I know we're 172 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: going to talk about a few instances. One was watching 173 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: my grandparents' age. So at this point in my journey, 174 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: I don't have any grandparents left, which is like so 175 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: heartbreaking to me because I was so close to my grandparents, 176 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: especially my maternal grandparents. And I remember my grandmother. She 177 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: was like, I don't tell nobody, but I may or 178 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: may not have been her face. 179 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 3: She was my fath Hey, I understanding, understand, And it's 180 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 3: funny you can relate because it's funny because some people, 181 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: like my family, they might listen, but everybody knew what 182 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: it was, like I. 183 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: Like, and she my grandma. She didn't. She don't play though, 184 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: because she was straight up to tell somebody like and 185 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh gosh, I kind of didn't like that, 186 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 2: because you know, people feel some type of way. But anyway, 187 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: that was my girl, right Lois. And so when I 188 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: think about memories of my grandparents, right, I would always 189 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: remind my grandmother about how when I was younger and 190 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: I was living with my grandparents for a portion of 191 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 2: my like adolescent years, I think I may have even 192 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: been a toddler. She would watch stories, and I never 193 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: liked stories. I don't know if it's because I was 194 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: forced to watch it as a kid, but she would 195 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: watch stories on the couch and I would sit behind her, 196 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: like you could plant with toys, and I just be 197 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: up under her. I know for some families this might 198 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: seem a little weird, but I used to sleep in 199 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: the bed with my grandparents. I would sleep right in 200 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: the middle, and even into adulthood, sometimes I would go 201 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 2: visit them from like college, and I would sleep in 202 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: the bed with my grandparents and we would just watch movies. 203 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: I was so close with them, and so for me. Dom. 204 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: You know, as a young person, you often hear about 205 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: growing up and you're like, oh, I can't wait to 206 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: grow up. I'm so excited. But the thing no one 207 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 2: told me about was as you grow up, so do 208 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 2: the elders. So I told you grandparents, and my grandmother 209 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: was such a feisty, fun independent woman, always driving around, 210 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: always doing her own thing, and don one thing that 211 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: was so hard for me was watching her in particular 212 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: age because she was always so independent and over the past. 213 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: After my grandfather passed away, she started losing a lot 214 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: of weight. She got really sick, and I remember going 215 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 2: home to visit her, and we would sit and we 216 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: would chat and I would do my you know, record 217 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: videos because I'm always trying to document moments. And I 218 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: used to have this internal frustration because I could sense 219 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: her like just disappearing, and I remember just like being 220 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: so pissed off because I was like, damn, Like she's 221 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: so much smaller, She's starting to look different, and I 222 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: was like, damn, like my grandmother, I never imagined a 223 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: world with her like not being here, you know. And 224 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: I used to always say to her, and she said 225 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: a lot of the grandkids used to say, like when 226 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: we were younger, my mom, make sure that you know, 227 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: let me pray that I die before you, because I 228 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: don't want to live without you. We used to always, 229 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: you know, say that, like as kids, we'd be like, 230 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: I hope I die before you because I did not 231 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: want to have to live without you, right, And so 232 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: I think about the ambiguous grief of watching her deteriorate 233 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 2: when I knew in my gut, like I need to 234 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: go home or because she's not going to be here. 235 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: And that's one of the instances that I think about 236 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: as it relates to aging parents, seeing her memory leave, 237 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: like her asking the same questions over and over. And 238 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: I believe she was experiencing earlier dementia, but I'm not positive. 239 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: But Dona was so freaking hard to experience and watch 240 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: what about you? 241 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: Yeah that, Yes, watching a grandparent age is hard. And 242 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: I think the thing is, I think that's what makes 243 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: it about like this and like makes it so ambiguous, 244 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: is that you know that it's happening. But how we've 245 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: been taught is you grieve the person when they're gone, right, 246 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: And so we're not necessarily given that space to grieve 247 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: or even think about it as loss because they're still 248 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: physically present. Right. 249 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: That's interesting. 250 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: Like I think about like, so, my grain grandfather had 251 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: Parkinson's and towards the end of his life he started 252 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: to have memory issues. And I remember like asking because 253 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: at this point I was in graduate school and early 254 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: in my graduate training, and just like asking, like, okay, 255 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: are these signs of dementia? Has he been diagnosed? And 256 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: no one could give me like concrete answers at least, 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: not that I'm recalling right now, right, But I can't 258 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: even begin to imagine what that was like from Like, 259 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: I know what it's like for me to see it, 260 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: but I can't even begin to imagine what that was 261 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: like for my grandmother, who had known my grandfather since 262 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,359 Speaker 1: they were like late teens, right, Oh my gosh. 263 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: Wow. 264 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: And so to spend over fifty years of your life 265 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: with someone, I can't even imagine what that's like to 266 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: be in that space of seeing, like remembering who they 267 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: were when you first met, right, seeing how you grow 268 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: and evolve over time, and then getting to this point 269 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: where you see it. You know it's inevitable that they 270 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: are going to die, because we know that we all will, right, 271 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: but because of their current physical and mental capacity or 272 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: physical and mental state, you know that it's probably happening 273 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: sooner rather than later. Yeah, And so it's almost kind 274 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: of like, do you get into a space of thinking 275 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: about the loss or focusing on those moments that are 276 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: right there? 277 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: That's so tough, right, right. I will say I think 278 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: that talking about it definitely helps, and that was one 279 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: thing I did with my grandmother. I remember visiting her 280 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: and like crying about like the fact that I don't 281 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: want to lose you, like I don't want to leave. 282 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: I want you to be here and be able to 283 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: see me have children and you know all these things. 284 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: And I think that talking about it is really helpful. 285 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: And also I don't know, dom, I don't think there's 286 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: a longer right way to do this right whatever's going 287 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: beat for you with But I found that grieving the 288 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: loss while also being grateful for the present moment, Like 289 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: I'm grateful that she's still here, like I would say 290 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: this in the moment when she was here. I'm grateful 291 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 2: that she's still here, and I'm also grieving the parts 292 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: that we no longer get to do. She doesn't drive anymore, right, 293 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: Like I'm bribing that while simultaneously being grateful, right. So 294 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: it's definitely multifaceted. Any other examples you want to share 295 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: before we dive into our tips. 296 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: Well, I think about not necessarily for me, but for 297 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: other folks who are listening. I want to talk about 298 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: addiction and divorce because I think that those are things 299 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: that impact people in ways like long reaching, long lasting 300 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: of fact, and we don't acknowledge it as loss. Right, Right, 301 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: So I think about particularly for children. Okay, you're in 302 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: the household and you have a parent, family member, caregiver 303 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: who has an addiction. And when I say addiction, usually 304 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: i'm referring to, like I'm generally referring to like some 305 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: type of substance, right, whether it be alcohol or drugs. 306 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: This person in your life is you're experiencing that type 307 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: two of ambiguous laws, right, that person psychologically is not there, 308 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: but they are physically present, you know, just thinking about 309 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: the negative impact that that has, Like I couldn't imagine 310 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: being a child in a home boom where my caregiver 311 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: is physically there. Like I can look at them, I 312 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: can see them, but mentally I can't engage with them. 313 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: They can't provide me with the things that I need. 314 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: So then I become a parentified child, or maybe I 315 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: end up in emotionally or psychologically abusive relationships because I 316 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: haven't seen what it's like to have someone be physically 317 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: and psychologically present for me. 318 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 2: Right, you're just gonna tell my business on the podcast. 319 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: I'm like, damn, now you speaking to me girl that 320 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: your own point. This is the truth. It's the truth, 321 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: and I'm sure, you have your own experiences as as 322 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: both being parentified children, but dan Don, this is deep. 323 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: Right, and think about it from that perspective of as 324 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: a child, Ye, not necessarily having the language to express that. 325 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: That's what you're experiencing, the language, and also not being 326 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: able to depend on the grown up that's in your life, 327 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: Like that's not a good feeling. And I remember, you know, 328 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: dealing with that, like right, like wow, yeah, this is 329 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 2: the person I'm supposed to depend on and I know 330 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: that they're not dependable. So that's a loss. 331 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: Yes, there's levels to that loss because it's like like 332 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: you said, like you're a child, so you're in that 333 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: moment and you have this loss, right, And normally when 334 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: a child is experiencing a loss, who do they go to? 335 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: So the person that they should go to to help 336 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: them cope with that loss is actually the person who's 337 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: causing the loss. So there's layers to it. Now it 338 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: becomes complex. 339 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: Layers, and you know what, it has me thinking about 340 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 2: two Don, this is a little a bit of a detour. 341 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: You're not like. 342 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: At yeah, yeah, no, I'm a lover right, all. 343 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: Right, girl, let's go. It makes me think about how 344 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: and I feel like there's a damn therapy session now. 345 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: Don you got me on the couch now, y'all. She 346 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: didn't tricks me onto the couch, y'all. So it makes 347 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: me think about how when you I remember being caught 348 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: up in this dysfunctional cycle with my mom growing up, right, 349 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: and of what we're talking about right now, and as 350 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 2: a child, you don't have a choice, right, so you're like, 351 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 2: this is this is where I'm raised, this is these 352 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 2: are the parents I've been given, and so being in 353 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 2: this dysfunctional cycle and then thinking to yourself that this 354 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: is how I'm supposed to this is what it's like. 355 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: You know, some people who have been abused say, well, 356 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: this is what love is, right, this is the customer 357 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: good moments, and then it confuses you because you also 358 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 2: have bad moments. But then it's a cycle of good 359 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: and bad and you're like, this is this is the 360 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: cycle that it is. And then it makes me think 361 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: about how we get into relationships, like you said, where 362 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: we are comfortable with that cycle, that dysfunctional cycle of 363 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: love and pa and then we may even behave that 364 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: way in relationships because of what we've seen, but then 365 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: also into adulthood. Sometimes we'll continue the cycle and we 366 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: don't realize that we have a choice now, and so 367 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 2: sometimes you have to set a boundary and may have 368 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 2: to in communication with your parent or parents. They're continuing 369 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: to do that into adulthood because now we have a choice, 370 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: we have power right that we did not have as children. 371 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: So this is like ooh, girls is deep. 372 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there are layers on this, right. 373 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 2: I'm surprised that we didn't see abortion and miscarriage on 374 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: the list. I know that there was infant loss, but 375 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: I think about. 376 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: No, that's real. That's an excellent point because actually, as 377 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: you this is how I know that, Like we just 378 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: be in single right, because when you were reading like 379 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: some of the examples, when you said infant death, like 380 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: I immediately thought about, yeah, I didn't think abortion, but 381 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: I did think miscarriage. 382 00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 4: Right. 383 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading off the list and I was like, oh, 384 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 2: that's so crazy. As we began to read deeper into these, 385 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: it made me think about and I share this on 386 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: the podcast about having a miscarriage, and it's like that 387 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: is the physical absence with the psychological presence, like it's 388 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 2: very much still with you after the lasses. I remember, 389 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 2: in my instance, which I talked about on the podcast, 390 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: I had so many feelings around this, right, trying to 391 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: get pregnant for so long, and then having an honest 392 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: moment with myself, I'm like, God, so wait, you're telling 393 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 2: me this is the life that I have. I raised 394 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: my younger siblings. When my mom was back and forth 395 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: to jail, I was like, I'm using air quotes a 396 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: good girl. Right, I was in school. I was focused. 397 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: Now in a place in life where I am ready 398 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: to have a child with my husband, I'm having a 399 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: hard time. First, I was just like, Okay, what is 400 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 2: going on? Like why is this the hand I've been dealt? 401 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 2: I was being honest, right, Sometimes you got to limit 402 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: to those honest feelings. But then getting pregnant, finding out 403 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 2: the day after Mother's Day and the day before my 404 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: husband's birthday that I'm having a miscarriage, and then my 405 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: body is still producing all the pregnancy. 406 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: Hormones, knowing me knowing. 407 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: In my mind that my body is not aware that 408 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: we're about to miscarry. So that just seemed like a 409 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: very It was a very It felt like a very 410 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 2: fucked up situation to be in. And I healed from it, 411 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: and I was able to turn that pain into purpose 412 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: after feeling all those emotions and being honest with myself. 413 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: But that is for sure ambiguous loss right there. 414 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 4: Right? 415 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: Ah, but see, you know, I wonder if that would 416 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: be ordinary loss? 417 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 2: What makes you say that? 418 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: And I want to be careful with my words, I 419 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: think because there is concreteness and finality, right, so, like 420 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: you know that it's happening, and you know the end 421 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: is like you there's an end, right, And so I 422 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: wonder if that is more of an ordinary loss, because 423 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: there's more concreteness to it, if that makes sense. 424 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, dom go ahead. 425 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: This, you know, I think this is this is interesting though, 426 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: that we're having this conversation, you know, because then but 427 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: then I also think about like sometimes with ambiguous loss, 428 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: it's about the process leading up to it, right, So 429 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if maybe it's the space leading up to it. Yeah, 430 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: is the ambiguous part right right? Because going through that 431 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: process is like you don't know for sure what's what's happening, 432 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: like you know what the final step is. 433 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would definitely say it's complex. I think it 434 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: could it's complex. Yeah, I would say maybe a combination 435 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 2: because I think there is an element of was it 436 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: ordinary grief? Was that the term? I think there's definitely 437 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: an element of ordinary grief. I think what brings up 438 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: the ambiguous loss for me is I'm thinking about type 439 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: one the physical absence, right, so there's no baby at 440 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: the psychological presence, still processing the psychological aspect of that, 441 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: and like I had a child. Why did this happen? 442 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: Because there are no answers. You know. One of the 443 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: things I was struggling with was unexplained infertility. So although 444 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: the doctors they did all the tests on both of us, 445 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: they were like, y'all healthy, there's nothing going on. We 446 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 2: don't know what's going we don't know why this is happening. 447 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: So I think for me, based on this situation, it 448 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: was that it was that psychological presence that was like 449 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: still lingering because after the miscarriage, is still like, okay, 450 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: we still want to have a baby, So why isn't 451 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: this working? 452 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 4: Right? 453 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: So I think it was more so the whole process 454 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: of that just infertility in general. Yeah, but it's complex. 455 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: So that's why I would say it's complex, right, because 456 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: the infertility piece is ambiguous loss, right, there's no full 457 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: explanation about the infertility. You know what it means, right, 458 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: So there's a psychological presence there. But the thing with 459 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: ordinary loss, and I don't like that word ordinary right 460 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: right right, it kind of gives them a different value 461 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: to it. That's not that's not fair, like, oh, it's 462 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: just ordinary. Yes, So, but I think the thing with 463 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: if we're going to keep using that actual the actual terminology, 464 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: the thing with infertility, the combination of the infertility and 465 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: then the miscarriage, is that what we don't like with 466 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: or we didn't define ordinary loss, right, So with ordinary lass, 467 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: there is the finality and you're able to grieve. Right. 468 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: So I think that when the actual miscarriage happened, like 469 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: having the actual miscarriage, that would be to me, I 470 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: when I step back and think about it based on 471 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: the definitions, like that would be ordinary loss. But the 472 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: combination of adding in the infertility and the loss of 473 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: grief you experience leading up to the actual miscarriage itself, 474 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: the combination of it all I think makes it complex. 475 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: For sure. It's definitely complex. And I think that one 476 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: thing I love this conversation too, Dom because I think 477 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: that this is a conversation where we can disagree agreeably 478 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: because you know someone may be listening and say, well, 479 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: I have this type of grief, but this is what 480 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: it feels like to me. Because it's so complex, I 481 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: feel like there can be variations, like it could be 482 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 2: one of those situations where it's like a little bit 483 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: of this, a little bit of that. I think the 484 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: main thing for us to remember is that like, it's 485 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: okay to experience these things and to feel the emotions 486 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: and like all rus and it's important to have it validated. 487 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 4: Right. 488 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: So regardless of like which one you think it might be, 489 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: like the person that you're with, the people that are 490 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: around you, they should be empathetic, right, they should be compassionate, 491 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: they should feel you on whatever level it might be. 492 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: But I think it is powerful to have language so 493 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: that you can try to figure out how can I 494 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: cope better with this based on what type of strategy 495 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: right might be associated with each loss? Right. 496 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: I think you summed it up perfectly, And I want 497 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: to be clear. I hope that I wasn't coming across 498 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: as empathetic when you and I were conversing about this topic, 499 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: as you were like explaining your experience, and because I 500 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: want to be clear that that was not my intention, 501 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: but if that was the impact, then I want us 502 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: to fix it. 503 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: Well, let me just say, Dom, you've been with me 504 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: part of this whole infertility journey and you have been 505 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: extremely supportive. Yeah, extremely empathetic. And No, this was great. 506 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 2: I think this is a good conversation for us to have. 507 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: And I think that there are times where one thing 508 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: I love about our connection Dom and what we do 509 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: on the podcast is that we've had an episode about conflict. 510 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: This I wouldn't categorize this conflict that an episode about conflict, 511 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: And I think that we do a good job of 512 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: marrying how you can have a conversation and even though 513 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: there may be a differing opinion, like it's okay, like 514 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: that those can live in the same space. So No, 515 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: I think you were absolutely empathetic and I love that 516 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: you shared your perspective when we were able to say, hmm, 517 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: that's interesting, get curious and like, I think I might 518 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: have a different opinion here, but at the end of 519 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: the day, like we're getting the information out and we 520 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: get to model how to have a good conversation when 521 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: there is something that comes up where you're like, I 522 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 2: don't know if I agree with you on that one, 523 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 2: but this is still interesting to hear and I'm glad 524 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: to hear your perspective because I mean, I'm sure you've 525 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: had situations like this down where you might share your 526 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: situation or something about yourself and someone else may categorize 527 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: it differently or believe yes, go ahead, Well. 528 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna share. I wasn't. I didn't have like 529 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: an immediate example that came up, but I just was 530 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: thinking about like, just yeah, just having your story minimized 531 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: is problematic, right, And I think that the biggest message 532 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: that and you pointed this out, is that the person 533 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: experiencing the loss just needs the language to say I'm 534 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: experiencing a loss. And so even though today we are 535 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: going through and we're saying this is what ambiguous loss 536 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: is a loss is a loss is a loss? Yeah, 537 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: And if a person is saying that they've experienced a loss, 538 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: then just like you pointed out, the key is to 539 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: offer that person empathy. 540 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think because we're having a Lady, I'm 541 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: so excited that you get to be in on this conversation. 542 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 2: I think because we're having this conversation on the podcast, 543 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: and because we're discussing this new term that someone may 544 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: listen and say, wait, well, domb I don't know. It 545 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: felt like you know, she was minimizing, but it's like, no, 546 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: we're just literally having a conversation about these different experiences. 547 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: And so I'm glad. I'm grateful for you, Dominate. You 548 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 2: were like, wait, let me just make sure it was 549 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: I being empathetic and make sure that my intent matches 550 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: the impact. I think if this were like an everyday conversation, 551 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 2: And again, Dominson is so supportive throughout this whole process 552 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 2: with me. But I think if like someone were to 553 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 2: come to me in real life and say like, oh, 554 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,239 Speaker 2: this is this type of situation I'm experiencing, even if 555 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: I don't agree with it, I probably just be like, Okay, 556 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: sometimes it is important to kind of guide someone to something, 557 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 2: depending on the relationship, right, guide into something that might 558 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: be more suitable. But no, you did a good job 559 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: down I think this is spot on, and I'm just 560 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: glad that we have this space where we can have 561 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: these conversations. 562 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: Yes, me too, me too, I like and I love 563 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: how we can authentically flow with it. Right Because as 564 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: we were prepping for this episode, like we didn't anticipate 565 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: like diving in in this way, right, Like, I'm sure lady, 566 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: as you're listening, sometimes you probably wonder like is the 567 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: show scripted? No? No. We may generally have an outline 568 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: of the things that we want to cover, the topics 569 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: that we want to cover, and the points that we 570 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: want to make, but the actual conversation itself always flows naturally. 571 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: Like when you're listening, you're getting that in the moment 572 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: dialogue that we're having about the topic. 573 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: That's right. 574 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: So, t are you ready for us to dive into 575 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: those tips on how to navigate and understand ambiguous loss? 576 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: I am. I'm excited. Let's do it, Dom. I think 577 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: you should take the first one. 578 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: What you think, yeah, okay, So the first one is 579 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: utilizing both and thinking. So what that means is going 580 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: the opposite of the black and white either or perspective. Right, 581 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: So saying okay, I can going back to the example 582 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: about like our grandparents, I can grieve that my grandparent 583 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: is aging, right, I can mourn that I am potentially 584 00:34:53,440 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: losing a grandparent and appreciate them while still here. Right, 585 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: I don't have to choose one or the other. 586 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: I can have both and not beat yourself up when 587 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: you have those feelings. I feel like sometimes down you know, 588 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: in the moment, many of us, we might be like, damn, well, 589 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: they are still here, so I should be grateful for that. 590 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you could do both, okay, but I 591 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: can do both the same damn time it is okay. Yes, 592 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: the second is set aside time to not think about 593 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 2: the loss. I think that's an interesting one, and I 594 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: think sometimes that's helpful to just like set time aside. 595 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: And sometimes the way I look at it, what I 596 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: like to say, is like I'll write down whatever loss 597 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 2: or situation I'm dealing with, and I sort of like 598 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: put it on the shelf, and I'm like, Okay, we 599 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: know we're gonna come We're gonna come back to this 600 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: because it's still very much prevalent. I'm still thinking about it, 601 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: but for the time being, let me do something that 602 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: brings me joy. Like, during you know this time, I 603 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 2: purchased a coloring book, and so I'm like, literally, I've 604 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: sat down like a little kid and I've been coloring, 605 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: and it's it's been so therapeutic, it's been so fun. 606 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to color line. Yeah. I also got 607 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 2: a yo yo and some silly buddy I'm trying to 608 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 2: get into when my inner child, and I feel like 609 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: those are like just doing something that makes you happy 610 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 2: and then the's to that and like knowing that, Okay, 611 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: I'll give myself space to come back to this, but 612 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: right now I'm just going to do this other thing. 613 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, just giving yourself that space and being 614 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: okay with it. The next tip is to reassign family roles, 615 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: and I think that you can look at that in 616 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: multiple different types of ambiguous loss that someone might experience. Right, 617 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: So if we think about divorce, so parents are no 618 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: longer living in the same household, So then what that 619 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: means is things that one parent used to do, they're 620 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: no longer in the house to do. So let's figure out, 621 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: let's have a kind conversation and figure out who's gonna 622 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: take on those tasks now, right, Or you know, we 623 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: think about the aging grandparent. Okay, so the things that 624 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: this grandparent used to do, who's gonna take that on? 625 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: Or maybe you're the person who has been the caregiver 626 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: for this for this aging parent or grandparent and you 627 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: are needing more space to grieve. So then some of 628 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: the things that you're doing may need to be assigned 629 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: to other family members to allow you that space to grieve. 630 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 2: I love that, and that takes us to our next one, 631 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: which is family. There pe slash interactions, and I was 632 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: trying to think of, you know how they say a 633 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: family that prays together stays together. I was trying to 634 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 2: think of a real cool like slogan for this one. 635 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 2: The only thing that came to mind for me was 636 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: a family that heals together, chills together. That was it. 637 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 2: That's all that came. But I'm basically saying, like, if you, 638 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 2: you know, have these conversations with your family, I think 639 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 2: it could be really healing for everyone involved, you know, 640 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: because there's so many emotions that come up and if 641 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: we deal with it. Of course, it depends on what 642 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: type of family you have, because I know there are 643 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: some interesting folks in my family where I'm like, I 644 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: well need do None of that could just too much, 645 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. 646 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:19,959 Speaker 1: But folks that are. 647 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: Willing and able to participate in something that's productive like this, 648 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: it could be really healing for everyone because many of 649 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 2: us may be feeling the same emotions right and even 650 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 2: if or not, we can still hold space to have 651 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: those conversations. So family therapy and interactions. 652 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: Yes, and then that brings us to our final tip, 653 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: which is engaging with your community or group therapy or 654 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: group interactions. Right, So that may mean looking for support group, 655 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: and I know that a lot of hospitals now all 656 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: for various support groups for caregivers of age, parents, people 657 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: with varying types of mental illness, people with cancer, people 658 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: with varying types of terminal illness, and so, ladies. Depending 659 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: on the community that you're in, a local hospital could 660 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: be offering that support space for you to be around 661 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: other people who can truly identify with what you are 662 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: going through. And I know that also a lot of 663 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: hospitals offer similar spaces for children so that they can 664 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 1: interact with people with their peers who may be dealing 665 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: with similar things. 666 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 2: I love it. Should we do a circle back. 667 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: Around, yes, ma'am. So Tip one utilize both and thinking. 668 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: Tip two set aside time to not think about the loss. 669 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: Tip three sign family roles. Tip four engage in family 670 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: therapy or family interactions, and Tip five engage in community 671 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: or group therapy and interactions. 672 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 4: Hey, lady, it's doctor Dom here from the Herspace Podcast. 673 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: Do you have a burning question you're dying to get 674 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 4: feedback on. Do you want an unbiased perspective on a 675 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 4: situation you're facing. If so, visit herspacepodcast dot com and 676 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 4: click ask doctor Dom under the start here option. Every Tuesday, 677 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 4: I'll choose a few questions and answer them at random. 678 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us today in her Space. Please note 679 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 4: that our show may contain conversations about self help, advice, 680 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 4: self empowerment, and mental health, but it is by no 681 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 4: means meant to be a substitute for an ongoing formal 682 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 4: relationship with a trained mental health provider. If you are 683 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 4: someone you know is in need of mental health care, 684 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 4: please visit the Therapy for Black Girls directory Psychology today 685 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 4: or contact your insurance provider. 686 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard and want to keep 687 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: the conversation going, connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and 688 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 2: Twitter at her space podcast, or check out our website 689 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: at herspacepodcast dot com. And before we meet again, repeat 690 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 2: after me. Although my plans may change, I will stay 691 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 2: committed to my purpose. 692 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week, Lady