1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Kristin and I'm Carolin, and today we have a super 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: red lady on the podcast to tell us all about 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: the new book she has written that you need to 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: get in your hands or on your device a sap. Yeah, 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: and that is award winning journalist Jessica Bennett, and she's 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: written a fabulous new book, Feminist Fight Club, an office 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: survival manual for a sexist workplace. Asterisk Uh, this book 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: is more expensive for dudes. That's not necessarily an official 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: part of the title, but there is an asterisk on 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: the front cover with a little disclaimer love a good 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: gender wage gap joke. Yeah, oh I I appreciate it. 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: And if that title sounds familiar, it might be because 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: you follow us on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: where we posted a while back our galley copy of 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club, which made us feel very special that 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: we got an advanced copy and we wanted to share 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: with you all, And judging by the Instagram excitement, y'all 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: are pumped to check this book out. And I'm really 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: pumped that we got to talk to Jessica Bennett, who 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: is a friend of the show and whom we've cited 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: so many times on the podcast. And before we get 24 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: into our chat with her about the Feminist Fight Club, 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: I gotta tell a little story, Caroline. Yep, I love 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: the story. Sorry time. Okay, So about six years ago, 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: we received a letter from a listener in New York 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: who was this fabulous, hilarious woman who was responding to 29 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: something I'd said about feeling guilty of out watching Bravos 30 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: Millionaire Matchmaker. And she was just a delight and made 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: me laugh. And it was podcast internet friendship at first email? 32 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: Is that what you call them? So time went on 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: and I was heading up to New York and this 34 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: lovely lady said, Hey, when you're up here, I'm actually 35 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: hosting a little secret get together of women I know 36 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: who are also in media, and we talk about sexism 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: in the workplace and aspirations and kind of workplace consciousness 38 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: raising in a way. And I was extremely flattered and 39 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: also incredibly timidated. Um, because you know, I'm this podcaster 40 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: from Atlanta going up to you know, hang out and 41 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: eat dinner with all of these badass skill getters and 42 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: uh law there was there a little bit of imposter 43 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: syndrome at work about your own awesomeness. Oh my god, 44 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: I was head to toe imposter syndrome. And I also 45 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: made the mistake of wearing these really tall heels, which 46 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: on my already tall body made me all of six 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: foot two and in small New York apartments, I learned 48 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: that night, when you are towering above the rest of 49 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: the group, but you're also feeling overwhelmed with imposterism and 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: no one knows who you are, it can really amplify 51 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: when social anxiety. I was gonna say, you just end 52 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: up in the fetal position in the bathroom very much. 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: In fact, actually I got uh lost in the bathroom 54 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: at one point. It was it was just a hot mess. 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: I think I basically just blacked out. Um had an 56 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: insecurity blackout, and then arrived on the subway like two 57 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: and a half hours later. We've all been there. You're like, 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: for some reason, I'm not hungry anymore, but I also 59 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: want to throw up. I don't know where I've been, 60 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: and I think I've had four glasses of peanut so 61 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to me, uh, this was what would become the 62 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: feminist fight club that Jessica Bennett centers, this office place 63 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: manual around and I'm so honored to I guess technically 64 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: be a member of this fight club. Caroline, I'm like, 65 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm like an adjacent member, you remember, by proxy? Yeah, yes, 66 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: that that's how that works. I vote, I vote long 67 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: distance when I need to mail in my vote for leadership. Well, 68 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: and in the sixth years since, it's been amazing to 69 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: watch these women's careers develop and also how you know, 70 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: they've been extremely supportive of stuff Mo'm never told you 71 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: over the years as well, Jessica Bennett in particular. Um, 72 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: So it's so it's just exciting to see all of 73 00:04:55,279 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: our real world situations now getting applied to all of 74 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: these tactics and strategies and hilarious puns that Jessica has 75 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: compiled that can help anybody in the workplace. So I 76 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: thought we're going to kick off a conversation with Jessica 77 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: talking about the origins of that first feminist fight club. 78 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. I write primarily for The New York Times, 79 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: and I cover a lot about gender issues and then 80 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: occasionally blending that with modern culture, pop culture and trends 81 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: that range from the tyranny of resting bitch face to 82 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: the plight of female pot entrepreneurs. So try to keep 83 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: it serious but also fun. And the idea was essentially 84 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: that I think there's a lot out there and a 85 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: lot of conversation about gender issues. There are some really 86 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: great books written by really inspiring women, and then there 87 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: are also a lot of fun, youthful, millennial style books 88 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: that are written as handbooks. His Hipster Handbook, the Zombie 89 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: Survival Guide, UH, these types, and what I wanted to 90 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: do was blend the two create something that was smart 91 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: and had real advice that was rooted in research and 92 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: backed up by fact, but also was really easy to digest. 93 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: It was the kind of thing you could shove in 94 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: your purse, maybe even stuff in your bra tear out 95 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: a couple of pages, put them in there when you're 96 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: going in to ask for a raise, and flip essentially 97 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: to the section that you needed the advice on. And 98 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: so that was the inspiration for the manual style. And 99 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of take that very masculine art 100 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: of war Mortal Kombat game type style and turn it 101 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: on its head to feminize it. And then of course 102 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: there's a story of the Fight Club, which, as you mentioned, 103 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: you may or may not be a member of. UM. 104 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: And this is the real life group of women who 105 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: have been meeting for almost the past decade talking about 106 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: our career trajectories and the struggles we face and sharing 107 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: with each other a lot of tips that we learned 108 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: around along the way. Now you go into more detail 109 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: on the origin story of the Feminist Fight Club, which 110 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite favorite stories of women coming together. UM. Maybe, 111 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: like you said, because I may or may not be 112 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: a member of said Feminist Fight Club. UM, but for 113 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: listeners who haven't read the book, can you talk about 114 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: the very first meeting, like how how did it happen? 115 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: How does one start a fight club? Well, so, the 116 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: way that it happened for this group was that there 117 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: were a lot of things happening in the culture that 118 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: made it kind of a perfect storm of us feeling 119 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: like we needed to do something. So I was in 120 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: Newsweek at the time as a junior reporter and was 121 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: really feeling like was struggling to get ahead. UM. The 122 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: men that I had come up with, we're getting promoted 123 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: more quickly than I was. I would pitch stories and 124 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: they would get rejected, but then I would notice that 125 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: they would be in the magazine under somebody else's byline. 126 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: I was facing a lot of frustrations, and I started 127 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: talking with other women in the office who were feeling 128 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: the same thing. This was at the time in late 129 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: two thousand nine, early when the David Letterman sex scandal 130 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: had just happened. He had been sleeping with his assistant. 131 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: There was a gender discrimination lawsuit at the New York Post, 132 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: and this giant report had come out from from the 133 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: Streiber Foundation run by Maria Streiber, pointing to the fact 134 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: that while we have made great strides in some places, 135 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: we were not anywhere near gender equality. So it felt 136 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: a bit like a perfect storm. And the original Fight 137 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Club members of which I was not one of the three, 138 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: started meeting in their workplace, which was another media company, 139 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: and they would gather often in their own offices and 140 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: sometimes outside of the office, often at a midtown McDonald's 141 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: over French fries and milkshakes and diet coke, and they 142 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: ultimately came to the collusion that they needed to do something. 143 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: They were feeling really frustrated, They felt stifled, they felt stuck, 144 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: They didn't know what to do. But what they could 145 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: do was form a group and talk about these issues, 146 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: which sounds a lot like on this old schools second 147 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: wave consciousness raising happening exactly, and I think that that's 148 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: essentially what we were doing. You know, we were meeting 149 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: every month or a few months. We were sitting around 150 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: in a circle, we were eating snacks and drinking wine, 151 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: and we were talking about the struggles we faced, and 152 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: we would literally go around the circle, much like old 153 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: school consciousness raising groups did. The difference was we didn't 154 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: necessarily call it that it was a modern version, but 155 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: it employed many of the same tactics. And I think 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: that the idea of raising consciousness, of real realizing that 157 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: this wasn't an individual problem but a collective one, was 158 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: ultimately one of the purposes that the club served well. 159 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: And something that's coming to mind as you're talking about 160 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: this is how one thing that we've noticed with our 161 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: work through stuff I've never told you, especially when we 162 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: go out and talk to younger audiences, is how the 163 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: workplace is usually for for a lot of women, their 164 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: first face to face, day to day confrontation with sexism. Um. 165 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering if if that's part if you 166 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: think that that's common for a lot of women to where, um, 167 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: you get your job and that's terrific, but then all 168 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're like, oh, wait, no, stuff is 169 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: really screwed up here, right right. I mean that was 170 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: certainly my experience, and the data would back that up. 171 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: You know, women excel in school. They're graduating from college 172 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and higher numbers are kind of outpacing their male peers 173 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: at every turn. They're getting more advanced degrees. And then 174 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: we leave academia and we go to the workplace and 175 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: it's not this egalitarian utopia. We're not getting ahead at 176 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: the same rate. And so for me, you know, I 177 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: had a privileged upbringing. I grew up in Seattle. It's 178 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: sort of a liberal utopia. My parents are feminist. Everyone 179 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: always told me I could accomplish whatever I wanted. And 180 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: so I think in a way because of that, I 181 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: didn't realize that feminism was something that I even needed 182 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: or identified with. And it wasn't until I got to 183 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: the workforce and began to experience these issues that I 184 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: was like, wait, oh, like this is what people talk about. 185 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: This is this thing that people talk about, and is 186 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: it sexism? Like is that really what this is? And 187 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: it took me a while to actually get to the 188 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: conclusion that, yes, it was. It was a systemic issue 189 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: and it's still one that exists. Well, and that's something 190 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me early in the book where 191 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: you say that recognizing sexism is harder than it used 192 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: to be. Um, so why is that? Do you think? 193 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: Like and and sort of what does that mean that 194 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: we need to be on the lookout for, right? You know, 195 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: I once had this conversation with Gail Collins, who is 196 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: the New York Times opinion writer who has a number 197 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: of amazing books about this issue, and she said something 198 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: to the effect of we were talking about generational differences, 199 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: and she said, you know, sexism of my generation was 200 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: worse in many ways. It was more overt, but at 201 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: least you knew it when you saw it. And that 202 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: really resonated with me, because while our generation is not 203 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: experiencing help wanted ads segregated by gender, or actually being 204 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: smacked on the ass in an office environment and it 205 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: being okay or accepted, we face things that have a 206 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: subtlety to them, and as a result, it's hard to 207 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: know is it sexism or is it just me so, 208 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: for example, being interrupted in a meeting. Women are twice 209 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: as likely to be interrupted in meetings as men, and 210 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: this happens all the times, has been happening for my 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: entire career, and it took me a long time to 212 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: realize that maybe this was actually a product of male 213 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: privilege and of a patriarchal system in which men believe 214 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: that they are entitled to speak more frequently, you know, 215 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: things like having your ideas attributed to somebody else. This 216 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: is also statistically proven, it happens commonly with women. And 217 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: these things I've heard it called sexism by a thousand 218 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: small cuts. They're small things, and taken individually, they can 219 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: seem like not that big a deal. But when you 220 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 1: experience this, all of these things over time collectively, they 221 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: can be really fatal. Well. And a lot of these 222 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: conversations around especially the gender wage gap and more of 223 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: the financial manifestations of workplace sexism, really start with negotiating 224 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: and the whole salary negotiation issue. And for so long, 225 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: the you know, um abiding claim was that, well, women 226 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: just aren't asking for money and that's the problem. But 227 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: there's so much more nuance to this negotiation issue. So 228 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, you know, 229 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: with all of this stuff, there's so much nuanced to it, 230 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, and even the negotiation things. So yeah, 231 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: we finally realized over the past few years that women 232 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: aren't asking as often, and so we've been trying to 233 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: solve that, and that's what I write in the book. Well, 234 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: last week a study came out saying that actually women 235 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: are negotiating. There, in fact negotiating and equal numbers too men. 236 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: So great, that's a good thing. We were halfway there, 237 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: but the caveat is that they're still not getting raises 238 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: with the same frequency. So, yes, you can tell women 239 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: to negotiate, you can encourage them to do so, but 240 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,239 Speaker 1: it's not that simple. They have to be able to 241 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: navigate these really complicated and deeply rooted biases when they 242 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: get there. And some of those say that, you know, 243 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: when a woman asked for a raise, she's more likely 244 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: to be deemed pushy, she's going to be less liked 245 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: when she does so, and she's less likely to get 246 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: the raise in a man who's asking. Another bit of 247 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: research advises that women should actually smile when they go 248 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: in to negotiate because women are expected to be nurturing 249 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: and maternal and nice, and so if you play into 250 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: that stereotype, you're actually more likely to be successful when 251 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: you ask. So it was tricky writing this chapter because 252 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to advise people to play into gender stereotypes. 253 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: But by the same token, if smiling when you go 254 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: and ask for the raison is going to get you 255 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: the money and get you in power, and then you 256 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: can lift other women up along with you, then I 257 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: think it goes towards this larger goal of smashing down 258 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: patriarchy and taking over. But these things are really tricky. 259 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: They're very nuanced, and there's a lot of subtlety to them. Well, 260 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: and speaking of smiling, what would you say to someone 261 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: listening and thinking, oh, but I am really over being 262 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: expected to smile all the time, especially for you know, 263 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: women who are working in service industry jobs. I've heard 264 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: this from women in healthcare a lot, being asked by patients, 265 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, why are you smiling? What would you say 266 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: to that? I mean, you know, Hillary Clinton just experienced 267 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: this with the head of the r NC. Like, contrary 268 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: to popular belief, women are not actually born with smiles 269 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: on their faces, and we are not required to smile. However, 270 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: there is this cultural expectation that we should be smiling 271 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: all the time, and if we're not, oh, then we 272 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: have resting bitch face. Then we're a bit Whereas the 273 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: exact same facial expression on a man would simply be 274 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: viewed as serious or authoritative. So there's a complete double 275 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: standard when we talk about this. At the same time, 276 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: if I have to in and Barrett literally when I'm 277 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: walking and to ask for a raise and it's going 278 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: to get me the money so I can get empower, 279 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: then on some level, I'm just like, I'm gonna do 280 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: it now. Not to get too personal, Jessica, but do 281 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: you have like I do, resting bitch face. I didn't 282 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: know that I had resting bitch face until I was 283 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: doing a television interview for an article I had written 284 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: and somebody screenshot at my face on the screen, and 285 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: it in fact ended up on Wikipedia as literally the 286 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: face of resting bitch face the definition. So it turns 287 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: out I do have restling bitch face, but I'm trying 288 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: to just own it. Yeah, I mean, you could probably 289 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: trademark that resting bitch face then, right, So yeah, my 290 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: boyfriend has it as his as my icon when I 291 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: call him listeners, are you hiring? Do you know where 292 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: to post your job to find the best candidates? And 293 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: we know that posting your job in one place isn't 294 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: enough to find quality candidates all the time. And if 295 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: you want to find the perfect higher, you need to 296 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: post your job on all the top job sites, and 297 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: now you can with zip recruiter dot com. Zip recruiter 298 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: lets you post your job to one hundred plus job sites, 299 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: including social media networks like Facebook and Twitter, all with 300 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: a single click, and you can find candidates in any 301 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: city or industry nationwide. 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Listeners can post jobs on zip recruiter 308 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: for free by going to zip recruiter dot com slash women. 309 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: That's zip recruiter dot com slash women one more time 310 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: to try it for free, go to zip recruiter dot 311 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: com slash women one thing I've been noticing more conversation 312 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: around in terms of what women can pay more attention 313 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: to in the workplace, things we have some more leverage 314 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: over than perhaps uh controlling all the variables in negotiation situations. 315 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: Is all of the unpaid labor that we tend to 316 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: do women in particular, and um, you talk a bit 317 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: about how there our whole overwork culture that a lot 318 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: of us are in right now, um does not benefit 319 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: women as much as men um. And also too, when 320 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: we're in the office in nine to five, we tend 321 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: to even be doing office housework. So what's going on 322 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: with all of this um on the clock but almost 323 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: off the clock work that we're doing right, Yeah, I 324 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: think this comes from two angles. So on the one hand, 325 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: there is what I call in the book the stenography, 326 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: and this is the guy who asked you to take 327 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: the notes in the meeting or grab the coffee and 328 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: just instinctively turns to a woman to do these tasks. 329 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: And what the research shows is that women are more 330 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: likely to be tasked with these things. I'm more likely 331 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: to be asked to do them, and at the same 332 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: time they are also more likely to volunteer. So the 333 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: reality is if you're always taking the notes in the meeting, 334 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: then you're probably not putting forth the ideas. And if 335 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: you're always grabbing coffee, then you're missing valuable face time. 336 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: And if you're the one who has to plan the 337 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: company holiday party or brings cupcakes for the birthdays, it's 338 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: taking time away from the higher productivity tasks that may 339 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: get you noticed. So, of course all this is within 340 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: the framework of assuming that a person wants to get 341 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: ahead at work, and maybe not everybody does, but at 342 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: the same time, most people, I think would probably prefer 343 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: to do more stimulating work than the menial tests. And 344 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: this is across the board. You know, this is not 345 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: just in an office environment. This happens. You can be 346 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: an hourly worker in a restaurant still be the one 347 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: asked to marry the catchups. Maybe that's industry speak from 348 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: my waitress days, marry the catchups or roll the napkins. 349 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: Like this stuff is taking time away from when you 350 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: could be bringing in tips. And so I think that 351 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: it relates to the overwork culture in the sense that 352 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: you spend hours doing this small stuff and then you 353 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: still have to do the regular work, the real job. 354 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: And so at the end of the day, you're working harder. 355 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: And for women who have children, they're already taking on 356 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: the quote unquote motherload of tasks at home. That's just 357 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: statistically proven. So at the end of the day, like, 358 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: how could you not be exhausted. You're doing the office 359 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: house work, you're doing the actual housework, and you're doing 360 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: your real job. So especially for someone in more of 361 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: service industry position who you know doesn't have a lot 362 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: of power in the workplace, or even for you know, 363 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: someone in a traditional office, if they don't roll the 364 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: silverware or they don't bring the coffee, then who's going 365 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: to you know what I mean, like, how do you 366 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: delegate those tasks out to ensure that you're not doing 367 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: all of this useless work all the time? Right? I mean, 368 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: one really simple thing to do is creating kind of 369 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: a spreadsheet type list or creating a rotating system for 370 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: people to do them. And I think anyone can probably 371 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: speak up and suggest that, like let's take turns. You know, 372 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: it's like the old chore chart that you had when 373 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: you're a kid, And that is one really simple way 374 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: to do it. And I don't think you have to 375 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: be in a power position to suggest that if you 376 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: are in a power position, it's important that you make 377 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: sure that these things are being distributed equally because you 378 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: don't want the women to get stuck with it. You know, 379 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: There's like the passive aggressive approach, which is like when 380 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: you'll get asked to do the thing, you're like, oh, 381 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: but what about Josh over here? Like Ash just great 382 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: at taking notes, So there's that, And then I've also 383 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: heard of people taking the direct approach, and this is 384 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: again in an office environment, but specifically saying when they're 385 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: in a meeting that is male dominated. And my one 386 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: friend who frequently does this happens to be a one 387 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: of color, saying directly, guys, you cannot ask the one 388 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: person of color and the one woman in this room 389 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: to take the notes and just approaching the elephant in 390 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: the room and being directed about it. So I think 391 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: that with all of the advices of nothing is going 392 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: to work for every situation. So I've tried to give 393 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: the direct approach, the indirect approach, the humorous approach, and 394 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: people can kind of choose what might work best for them. Well. 395 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: That also has me wondering that considering how more and 396 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: more people are working freelance or on a contract basis 397 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: sort of being their office of one. Um, do you 398 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: think that these situations apply? I mean, I work from 399 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: home as a freelancer and most of my work has 400 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: done over email these days, and I find myself dealing 401 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: with this stuff constantly, like I'm not getting audibly interrupted, 402 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: but I noticed subtle things like I respond to emails 403 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: in the most passive way possible, saying I feel like 404 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: and using language and exclamation points to try to soften 405 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: what I'm actually trying to say, whereas men I don't 406 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: think do that with the same frequency. So the idea 407 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: of free work and being asked to do free work again, 408 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: that's that's hugely common when you're a soul contractor or 409 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 1: an independent the employed person, because you have to decide 410 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: what's worth it for you, And you know journalism, it's 411 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: like everyone's asking you to write for free all the time, 412 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: and you have to decide, like when it's worth it 413 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: for you, Like what's the return on the investment? Are 414 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: I hate that chart so corporate, But I actually find 415 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: myself asking like, whats are a while on this? Is 416 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: it worth it for me to do this thing for free? 417 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: Or is it worth it for me to grant this favor. 418 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: Has this person done something for me in the past, 419 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: or do I just believe in this cause? So a 420 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: lot of it is just weighing things individually but thinking 421 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: strategically about it. So I want to go back to 422 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: what you said about emailing and using that hedging language 423 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: of just actually because this is I think such a 424 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: huge issue for um, women today in the workplace. There 425 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: have been so many conversations about it, so many you know, 426 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: viral pieces about words and phrases that we shouldn't use 427 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: as women that are undercutting our authority. But on the 428 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: flip side of that, there have been a lot of 429 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: arguments that, hey, people just need to get used to 430 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: the way women are talking. Right, So how do we 431 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: how do we navigate through this professional speech and gender quagmire. Yeah, 432 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: that's exactly what it is. I was gonna say, show, um, 433 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: it's impossible. This is impossible to navigate. And as I 434 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: was researching this chapter, there's a chapter on speech. Um 435 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: it's called get your Speak on the cluster of speaking 436 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: Wall Female, and that is basically what it is. It's 437 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: a cluster because from every avenue we have people telling 438 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: us that we shouldn't say like so much are the 439 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: tone of our voice isn't working. We are using up talk, 440 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: which is when you end up your statements in a question. 441 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: And certainly there are cases and research has shown that 442 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: these things can undermine you in a workplace. They can 443 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: undermine your confidence, and they can make it sound like 444 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're talking about. But at the 445 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: same time, I think it's important to recognize that we're 446 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: still judging all of this by a male standard, like 447 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: that you may think that somebody sounds like a valley girl, 448 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: but in relation to what in relation to men. So 449 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: my feeling is that if since the dawn of time 450 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: women had been running things, then actually maybe we'd be 451 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: telling men that they should insert more up speak into 452 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: the way they talk. And it's not just that these 453 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: are all learned behaviors. Women actually do lead linguistic trends, 454 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: like we set the trends as they exist in the 455 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: modern culture, and we the research shows that we actually 456 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: do more creative things. But the way we talk and 457 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: teen girls in fact that if you want to learn 458 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: about speech, just look at teen girls, Like eventually we'll 459 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: all be emoging in the same way. They are speaking 460 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: gifts or whatever it may be. But I think that 461 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: it's important to way these things knowing that most of 462 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: us are in male dominated fields, so they will be 463 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: interpreted a certain way, and recognizing that and perhaps trying 464 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: to solve for it, but also knowing that you know, 465 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like just speak the 466 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: way you want to speak, Like, we can't constantly be 467 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: changing the way we talk to fit into some larger struck. Sure, 468 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: how can women perhaps listen to women better and also 469 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: have each other's back better? Right? I mean, this is 470 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: something that I struggle with two And it's not just 471 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: that women are being competitive with each other. This is 472 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: a learned behavior and what helped me was understanding where 473 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: it came from. So we'll just try to explain that 474 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: men have been running things in the workplace forever and 475 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: so what that led to was competition. Competition among women 476 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: for perhaps the one place at the table, or the 477 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: one spot at the top, or the one position in 478 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: whatever workplace it was. And because there were so few positions, 479 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: of course you felt you needed to elbow the woman 480 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: next to you because you were competing for the same job. 481 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: My feeling is that if we are able to equalize 482 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: the workplace and there are an equal level of men 483 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: and women, then there will still be comp petitian, but 484 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: it will be equal opportunist competition. You will be competing 485 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: the same amount against the men as you are as 486 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: the women. And so I think that we may not 487 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: even realize it, but we have internalized that belief, and 488 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: that is part of the reason why we are so 489 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: competitive with other women. And I find myself doing this 490 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: so often. Immediately, if there's another woman who is pitching 491 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: a story or writing about a topic that's similar to 492 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: what I'm writing about, I will get competitive. And what 493 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: I've tried to do is just sort of stop myself 494 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: for a moment and take a step back and say, 495 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 1: why am I being competitive with this person? Is there 496 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: a way to actually become allies and help each other? 497 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: And as you know, we had these sort of silly 498 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: rules to the fight Club, but the most important one 499 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 1: was treating other women as allies not enemies. And I 500 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: repeat that to myself constantly because I still need to 501 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: hear it sometimes. But I think that knowing that we've 502 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: all been in that position, if of ninety if of 503 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: us have felt are crated by other women, then most 504 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: of us have probably been the person doing undercutting. So 505 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: we have to recognize that we're all in this together, 506 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: and that probably each of us has been part of 507 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: the problem at one point or another, Caroline, as you 508 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: and I both know well, to do lists can seem 509 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: out of control. There's so much stuff Mom never told 510 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: you ing to do in so little time to do it. 511 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: But there's one thing we can check off our to 512 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: do list, and that is going to the post office 513 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: thanks to stamps dot com. Because with stamps dot com 514 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: we can buy in print official US postage right from 515 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: our own computers and printers. Samps dot com will even 516 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: send us a digital scale automatically calculating the exact postage 517 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: we need for any letter package and any class of mail. 518 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: That's right. You can do everything right from your desk 519 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: with stamps dot com. And right now you can sign 520 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: up for stamps dot com and use our promo code 521 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: stuff to get a special offer. It's a four week 522 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: trial plus one dollar bonus software that includes postage and 523 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: a digital scale. So don't wait. Go to stamps dot 524 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: com before you do anything else. Click on the microphone 525 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: at the top of the homepage and type in stuff 526 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: that's stamps, dot com enter stuff, and now back to 527 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: the show. So it sounds like a lot of this 528 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: revolves around mindfulness really as we are going through our 529 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: professional lives in terms of helping other women and sort 530 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: of keeping our own unconscious biases in check. Um and 531 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: it almost sounds exhausting all of all of these things 532 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: that we have to do. I mean, it is, it is. 533 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: And I think that as I was writing the book, 534 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, providing these battle tactics, but then saying like, 535 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: oh well, actually if you use this one, then maybe 536 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: you should tweak it to do it this way, And 537 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: it's like it's enough to make your brand explode. So 538 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: the way that I try to think about this without 539 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: wanting to throw, without wanting to throw myself out my 540 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: window all day long, is I try to have fun 541 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: with it. And that's where the thinking behind the playfulness 542 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: with the book comes. Their illustrations. There are mad libs, 543 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: there's profiles of feminist fight clubs throughout history at the end, 544 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: and I just try to laugh. I try to use 545 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: humor as a way into these issues and something that 546 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: can keep me going and also open up the conversation 547 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: to a larger audience because it's easy to get depressed, 548 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: like the ship is hard and I don't have a 549 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: perfect dancer. But knowing that we're all in it together 550 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: and maybe we can laugh about it a little bit 551 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: has helped. Like fighting patriarchy can actually be fun, and 552 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: so I think we should try to do that more 553 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: often well. And I also appreciate the balance of the 554 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: book being completely hilarious and also full of puns. And 555 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: for anyone who listens to this podcast knows I love 556 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: a good pun, um, But so it gives readers the 557 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: permission to be angry, which we don't hear very much 558 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: at all. I feel like as women like, yeah, go 559 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: into the office and get pissed. Yeah, yeah, totally, And 560 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: I mean I'm pissed, I'm angry. Um, I can still 561 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: laugh about it, like I'm not a man hater. I 562 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: believe that men are allah's but like I'm angry, and 563 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: I think that is okay. And from a very from 564 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,239 Speaker 1: the standpoint of purely marketing a book and needing to 565 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: know that you have to sell this thing and you 566 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: need to get a publisher's buy in for it, I 567 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: was nervous first and foremost about the title. It is aggressive, 568 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: it is a fight title, and I wasn't sure that 569 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: that would go over well, but in the end it did, 570 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: and it's so rare. I think that, like you said, 571 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: women are giving permission to be angry. And in so 572 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: many cases when talking about the subject, you know, it's 573 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: all clouded and this empowerment speak. We have to be 574 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: so positive and it's all about inspiration and empowerment. Well, okay, fine, 575 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: that's not bad, but also we can be a little 576 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: bit pissed and anger can be a very useful emotion. 577 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: This is what my therapist tells. Think anger can be 578 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: a very useful emotion towards enacting change because it motivates you. 579 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: For women of color, however, they're going to be judged 580 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,919 Speaker 1: differently if they're perceived as angry, and that is something 581 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: that you talk about in the book. And I also 582 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: appreciate how you have brought a very intersectional focus um 583 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: to the advice that you give. So I guess I'm 584 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: wondering whether all of these fantastic tips and strategies that 585 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: you lay out are potentially more challenging for people who 586 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: are not white, able bodied, this gender, straight, college educated 587 00:34:54,200 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: women like you and I to uh to follow and enact. Yeah, 588 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: I think that's probably true, and especially to your anger point. 589 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, there's so many cases where the research looks 590 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: at women as a whole, but that is probably mostly 591 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: white women. And it says that you will be perceived 592 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: as aggressive or bossy in a certain situation if you 593 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: ask for something. Well, that is of course doubly difficult 594 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: if you're a woman of color, and if you're an 595 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: African American woman, you always have that fear of being 596 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: perceived as an angry black woman, and so it's really tough. 597 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: There needs to be more research in this realm. And 598 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that every single piece of 599 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: advice I gave them this book was rooted in data 600 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: and research, because I come from a journalistic background and 601 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: I don't believe in just giving bullshit advice. So I 602 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: hired a Harvard researcher to help me, and we literally 603 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: sifted through all of the studies that exists out there, 604 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: and I had her help me to make sure I 605 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: wasn't missing anything. And the reality is there is not 606 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: enough research on women of color. Things look at women 607 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: as a whole, but you can imagine that most of 608 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: at is white women, and so I think that certainly 609 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: some of these things are going to be much more 610 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: difficult if you're a person of color, and that needs 611 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: to be taken into account. I also think that this 612 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: is a subject we're talking about more of these days, 613 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: and there is new research coming out. I saw a 614 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: study recently about how African American women are actually more 615 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: ambitious than their white counterparts. And so the more we 616 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: talk about it, the more we research it, then hopefully 617 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: the more battle tactics we can come up with that 618 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: are specific to them, because you can't really solve all 619 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: of these problems with a one size fits all approach. 620 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: That's just not the way the world works. So you know, 621 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: I've done my best while trying not to white splain 622 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: what women of color should do in these scenarios while 623 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: also looking at all of the research. But at the 624 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: same time, I don't have all the answers, and there 625 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: needs to be more. Yeah, I mean, and it also 626 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of this could apply pretty equally 627 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: to men of color as well, who, at least from 628 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: what I see, are rarely spotlighted in these kinds of 629 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: studies totally, and all of the stuff about impostor syndrome 630 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: like that, for example, that affects people of color, as 631 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: with justice high rates, as it affects women, And the 632 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: idea is that it's impacting anyone who has the pressure 633 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: of being a first things like stereotype threat. You know, 634 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: a lot of these issues really do affect both women 635 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: and people of color. And so some of these tactics, 636 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, there are some like writing affirmations or power 637 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: posing to increase your competence that can work for anybody. 638 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: The research sex it really does. Um So, what stat 639 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: You've been knee deep in research and studies, which Caroline 640 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: and I love to do here on the show. Um So, 641 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: what stat would you throw out at a dude who 642 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: is like, that's all fake? You so emotional? Are you only? Period? 643 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 1: So while I was writing this book, I had this 644 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy anthology sitting at my desk that was written 645 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: by Robin Morgan. It's called Sister Who Is Powerful. It's 646 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: amazing and retro and it inspired me so much. One 647 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: of the things she has in that book is a 648 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: section called verbal karate, and verbal karate is just a 649 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: list of statistics. And I have learned over time that 650 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: people cannot argue with statistics. So while you can try 651 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: to appeal to a man or a woman who doesn't 652 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: believe this is an issue by saying this is the 653 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: right thing to do, you know, don't you want equality 654 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: between men and women, you can also hit them with 655 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: verbal karate or statistical karate, which is, guess what, companies 656 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: are more successful, more profitable, and more collaborative when they 657 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: have women in power. Our economy would be better off 658 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: if there were an equal number of men and women 659 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: in sations of power in politics and in businesses. The 660 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: g d P would actually rise by twenty scent were 661 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: their gender equality. So there are all these stats that 662 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: you really cannot argue with, and so I try to 663 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: just throw those in their faces and then sit back 664 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: and like man spread Oh my god, I love it 665 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: so much. Um. Well, especially as someone who has spent 666 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: so long reporting on issues related to gender and feminism, 667 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: was there anything that especially surprised you that you were 668 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: really not expecting? Um In the process of researching for 669 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: and writing the book, you know, none of the stats 670 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: really surprised me. It was surprising to me that nobody 671 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: had gone through and distilled the information in a way 672 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: that could be really tactical because a lot none of 673 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: this research is new. You know, a lot of it 674 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: has been out there, but it's very academic. It's hard 675 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: to sit through, and so a lot of what I 676 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: spent time doing was just reading studies and trying to 677 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: translate it into colloquial language and then like inserting a 678 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: bunch of cheesy puns, but that and also learning about 679 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: these underground women's collectives of the past. You know. I 680 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: have a section at the end of the book that's 681 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: called Feminist bike Clubs of your and I spent a 682 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: lot of time just digging through old manifestos from the 683 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and interviewing women who had been involved in 684 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 1: the women's movement, and learning about all of these amazing 685 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: underground collectives that are not in the history books. You know, 686 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: groups that banded together to fight for the rights of 687 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: women in color in prisons. There's a group called the 688 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: Subjournal Truths Disciples, you know, women like which the Women's 689 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: International Terrorists Conspiracy from Hell, which is the name that 690 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: they could never get away with today, But they used 691 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: to stage all of these crazy protests. They glued shut 692 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: the doors to the new York's Stock Exchange one time 693 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: and called the media so that they would be there 694 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: when the Wall Street bangers would show up and not 695 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: be able to open them. You know, all of these 696 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: really colorful protests that combined both humor and action. And 697 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: I think that at the end of the day, that's 698 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: what I hope that this book does. It provides humor, 699 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: but it also provides action. I think it absolutely does 700 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: um And while I am biased, I'm also journalists too, 701 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: so there's my objectivity. So aside from our original feminist 702 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: fight club, which one of those is the Nearest and 703 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: Dearest to your heart or that you you drew the 704 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: most inspiration from, I did really love which because they 705 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: were so colorful. They also released a hundred white mice 706 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: into a bridal fair in Times Square in the nineteen seventies, 707 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: which I thought was hilarious. And they would go into 708 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: Playboy clubs, which were popular at the time, and they 709 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: would put as liquid cement in their purse. They would 710 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: fill their purses with liquid cement and it was a 711 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: fast drying cement, so they would rush into the ladies 712 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: bathroom and dump it down the tobilet lolock up to 713 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: toilets so I love the women of which, um there 714 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: are the Lesbian Avengers who tried to bring attention to 715 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: lesbian causes in the early nineteen eighties and they would 716 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: go into Central Park and they would hand out her 717 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: She's kisses that would say you've been kissed by a lesbian. Um. 718 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: And then there's the modern day clubs that I found 719 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: out about, like the brew Husts, which are this group 720 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: of Latina skaters in the Bronx who are trying to, 721 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, break down male dominated skate culture and are amazing. UM. 722 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: So those are a few of my favorites, but there's 723 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 1: lots more. So is there anything that I haven't asked 724 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: you about that you would like to make sure that 725 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: listeners know about the book before we wrap up? I 726 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: think just that you know, this is the story of 727 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: my hour fumine a spike club. But anyone can start 728 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,879 Speaker 1: a fight club. There's no rules. You can make what 729 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 1: you want of it. It doesn't have to be women 730 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: all in your same industry or in your workplace, and 731 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: we're so much stronger together. So you know, forming a 732 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: fight club I think can be fun. But also you 733 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: know that these women have your back. What if guys 734 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: want to join a feminist fight club. I would love 735 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: for there to be an all male feminist fike club. Um. 736 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, invite men to join your feminist fight club. 737 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: Like anyone who believes inequality is going to be an 738 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: ally and I think we should welcome them all despite 739 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: the fact that they have to pay more for the book. Well, 740 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to hear about all the feminist fight 741 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: clubs that people listening are about to go off and start. Yeah, Jessica, 742 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show, and please 743 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: tell us where you can find more about the book. 744 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: Order the book, uh and learn more about you. You 745 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: can go to Feminist fight Club dot com um and 746 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of information there. We can find us 747 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: on Instagram. We post a new feminist fight club from 748 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: history every Friday. Find club Friday at Feminist fight Club. Well, Jessica, 749 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:20,919 Speaker 1: thanks so much, thank you, so thank you so much 750 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: to be absolutely delightful and bad talking with us and 751 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: sharing her awesomeness with our audience. So thank you so 752 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: much to the absolutely delightful and badass Jessica Bennett for 753 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: talking with us and sharing her awesomeness with our Sminty audience. 754 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: I hope you guys really enjoyed that interview as much 755 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: as we did. And if you did enjoy it as 756 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: much as we did, you should look for Jessica online. 757 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: You can find more about her book club com, and 758 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,720 Speaker 1: of course you can find and in addition to providing 759 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: the info, you could also find her on Twitter at. 760 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: Jessica and her team are doing a fabulous job too 761 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 1: of really collecting related news and current events happening around 762 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: sexism and the workplace and just feminist culture in general, 763 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: so be sure to check out everything that she and 764 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club are doing. So with that, listeners were 765 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 1: curious to know if you have a feminist fight club 766 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: of your own or if this is something it sounds 767 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: like you could seriously use in your life. Let us know, 768 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 769 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social 770 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and 771 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources. So you can learn even more 772 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: about fighting the man or the who man I don't know? 773 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 774 00:45:53,880 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: com so you can learn even more about biding the 775 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: man I don't know, full man, I don't know I 776 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: don't know avert of stuff I'll never tell you. For 777 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 778 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com.