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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Is he finally gone? Can I quit paying for three

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Speaker 2: hots and a cot for confessed double killer Yourn van

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Speaker 2: der Sloot. Has he finally left us soil? Is he

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Speaker 2: where he's supposed to be, behind bars under a jail

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Speaker 2: in Peru. I'm not gonna believe it until I see

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Speaker 2: a certified photo of him behind bars, because this guy

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Speaker 2: has skated free so many times. Two women dead at

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Speaker 2: his hands that we know of, but we now learn

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Speaker 2: authorities in Aruba seek the US file on the extra

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Speaker 2: of Natalie Holloway's mother to the team of a quarter

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Speaker 2: million dollars. Why do they want the file? Do they

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Speaker 2: want your Vandersloot's confession that he and he alone murdered

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Speaker 2: American beauty teen girl honor student Natalie Holloway there in

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Speaker 2: Aruba on her high school senior trip. Do they want

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Speaker 2: that confession? If so, why is there any chance Aruba

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Speaker 2: will mount a murder prosecution? This was so many other

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Speaker 2: questions swirling. I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 2: and on Serious XM one eleven. Why Why am I

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Speaker 2: so glad he hopefully has finally left us soil because

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Speaker 2: of this. Hey, don't you don't have to trust me.

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Speaker 2: Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Listen.

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Speaker 3: Plus, she she has to go back to her hotel,

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Speaker 3: But I was just trying to get Trump off a

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Speaker 3: little bit further away from her hotel so we could

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Speaker 3: walk back to her hotel and I might still get

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Speaker 3: a chance to be with her. Okay, that's what I

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Speaker 3: was hoping for. Okay, So what happens, Yeah, b Puck

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Speaker 3: drops me off at a place a little right of

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Speaker 3: the Marriott Hotel known as the Fisherman's Huts.

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Speaker 2: I wanted a chance to be with her. Okay, that's

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Speaker 2: a load of let me see technical legal term bs.

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Speaker 2: He wanted a chance in the darkened night to rape

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Speaker 2: Natalie Holloway. Many people believe she had been slipped a

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Speaker 2: roofie GHB gamma hydroxy buterrate and a drink, because Natalie

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Speaker 2: Holloway would never have left that bar, Carlos and Charlie's

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Speaker 2: without her friends that she went there with. But she

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Speaker 2: did that night. Why After a couple of drinks, she

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Speaker 2: was completely out of it and he wanted her alone

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Speaker 2: with me. An all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now? Is he finally gone? Are

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Speaker 2: we rid of him with me? Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert

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Speaker 2: who traveled with me to Aru but with Natalie's mother

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Speaker 2: looking for more clues, Director of the Cold Case Research Institute,

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Speaker 2: star of a hitting new series Zone seven podcast, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to get her alone to rape her. That's

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Speaker 2: what he wanted. Didn't want to be with her and

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Speaker 2: find out her life story and her secret fears and

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Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings. He wanted to have sex with her.

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Speaker 4: He admitted to touching her, to feeling her up, to

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Speaker 4: getting her into a secluded play here are you.

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Speaker 2: Even saying that that was the molestation? She was out

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 4: It's a sectional assault. There's no question feel her up.

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Speaker 2: Who even says that anymore?

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Speaker 1: He did?

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Speaker 2: I'm quoting him now you're quote and you're on Vanderschlute. Okay,

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Speaker 2: Cyril's authority. Your man wanted to.

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Speaker 5: Have sex with her. He wanted to kill her. Sex

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Speaker 5: is just they wanted.

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Speaker 2: To have sex with her and it didn't work the

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Speaker 2: way he wanted to, and then he killed her. You're

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Speaker 2: hearing doctor Bethney Marshall.

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Speaker 5: What is sex?

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Speaker 2: With an instrument of power, A great listen.

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Speaker 3: This place. It's not so far from you know. The

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Speaker 3: next hotel is the Marriott in the next hotel after

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Speaker 3: that is another Marriott, which is a timeshare, and then

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Speaker 3: it's the holiday in Well. We we walk along the.

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Speaker 6: Beach, do deep hawk Alsati should get out?

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Speaker 7: Come with what happens?

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Speaker 3: The parking leave? They they leave, they go back to

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Speaker 3: their home. I assume they go back to their home.

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Speaker 3: They get in their car and they leave. I'm actually

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Speaker 3: with I'm actually with with Natalie. Walking along the beach,

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Speaker 3: I find the space before we get to the before

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Speaker 3: we get to the Marriotte hotel.

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Speaker 2: Where I lay her down there outside on the beach.

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Speaker 2: Natalie's completely out of it, I think because she's been

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Speaker 2: drugged and he quote lays her down. Gary Davison joining me,

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Speaker 2: high profile lawyer out of Miami, partner of ds rui's

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Speaker 2: international law firm and alliance. Gary, Why is it every

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Speaker 2: time I have ever interviewed a defendant or gotten wet

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Speaker 2: up on the stand, if the defense isn'tname is that's stupid?

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Speaker 2: They always somehow minimize their involvement. I lay her on

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Speaker 2: the ground, b s he knocked her down and raped her.

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Speaker 2: That is not laying her gently on the sand.

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Speaker 6: I always think of it as a self protection device

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Speaker 6: that witnesses and especially perpetrators of crimes undertake because they're

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Speaker 6: telling a story to an audience. And when you're telling

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Speaker 6: a story to an audience, you always want to make

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Speaker 6: yourself look good. It's just fundamental, and that's the reason

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Speaker 6: they do it.

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Speaker 2: I mean doctor Bethany Marshall, who was budding in earlier,

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Speaker 2: but hey, done it myself, doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile

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Speaker 2: psychoanalyst joining us out of La Dodgor Bethany. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the video from Carlos and Charlie's

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Speaker 2: she needed help walking. He had totally ruthied her, so

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Speaker 2: there's no lying gently on the sand for a session

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Speaker 2: of love making Bigs. He threw her down on the sand,

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Speaker 2: and Rachel.

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Speaker 5: Of course, this is a part of an offending pattern.

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Speaker 5: He did this many, many, many times with all these

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Speaker 5: students coming for their spring breaks. He was predating upon her,

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Speaker 5: He roofed her. He knew exactly what he was doing.

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Speaker 5: And when he said I laid her down, that's lingering passivity,

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Speaker 5: that is covering up a crime. That's that's being I

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Speaker 5: don't know, minimizing. That's the only way I can come

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Speaker 5: up with. Because your prior guest was right. He's thinking

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Speaker 5: about a defense and he lies all time, probably to

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Speaker 5: his mother's who is friends to the girls he meets

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Speaker 5: in the bar. So laying her down is just like

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Speaker 5: the least of all the life.

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Speaker 2: He tells, it's the beginning. You're absolutely right. The tip

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Speaker 2: has a very very large iceberg.

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Speaker 3: Listen this hand, and we start kissing each other. I start,

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Speaker 3: I get her to kiss me again. We start kissing

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Speaker 3: each other, and I start feeling her up again, and

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Speaker 3: she tells me no, She tells me she doesn't want

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Speaker 3: me to.

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Speaker 2: Feel her up.

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Speaker 3: I insist I keep feeling her up either.

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Speaker 2: Way, even in her condition, ruthied, drugged, inebriated, she fights back.

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Speaker 2: And don't you know, Cheryl McCollum, that if he is admitting,

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Speaker 2: she need him in the crotch, and she fought back.

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Speaker 2: There was a struggle, There was a war between the gods.

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Speaker 2: As best of a defense as she could mount in

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Speaker 2: her condition, she fought back. And he's admitting to this

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Speaker 2: much about an inch, when we know there was a mile.

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Speaker 4: And again I think it's really important that he's saying

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Speaker 4: I felt hurt up. That doesn't sound consensual. I laid

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Speaker 4: her down. She didn't lay down, he laid her down.

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Speaker 4: So again, nothing he's even saying, trying to make him

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Speaker 4: sound better, sounds consensual. And when you hear him even

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Speaker 4: describe her underwear, and I think it's extremely important for

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Speaker 4: people to remember when he first started this about we

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Speaker 4: were kissing, I was touching her, I felt her up,

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Speaker 4: and he describes the underwear down to the flowers embroidered

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Speaker 4: on them. He is talking to her father, her stepfather,

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Speaker 4: her mama, and several men from their church and community.

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Speaker 4: And he was seven years old.

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Speaker 2: Listen to more.

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Speaker 3: You mean the crotch. Once she needs me in the crotch,

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Speaker 3: I get up on the beach and I kick her

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Speaker 3: extremely hard in the face. Yeah, she's laying down unconscious,

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Speaker 3: possibly even even dead, but definitely unconscious. And I see

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Speaker 3: right next to her, there's a there's a huge cinder

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Speaker 3: block laying on the beach.

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Speaker 6: And when you say cinder block, looking at the walls,

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Speaker 6: this place isn't like those, the.

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Speaker 3: Exact same cinder blocks. I see a huge cinder block

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Speaker 3: laying on the on the beach. I take this and

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Speaker 3: uh I smash her head in with it completely. YEA,

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Speaker 3: her face basically, you know, collapses in. Even though it's dark,

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Speaker 3: I can see her faces collapsed in.

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Speaker 8: Uh.

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Speaker 3: Afterwards, I don't exactly know uh what uh you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm scared. I don't know what to do. Uh

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Speaker 3: and I M I decide to to take her and

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Speaker 3: uh uh to put her into the ocean. So I

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Speaker 3: grab her and I I have uh half pool and

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Speaker 3: half walk with her into the ocean. I uh I

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Speaker 3: push her off. Uh I walk up uh up to

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Speaker 3: about my knees into the ocean, and i'd push her

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Speaker 3: off into into the into the into see. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: after that, I I get out.

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Speaker 2: I walk home that yeah, and then gosh, what should

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Speaker 2: I say next? So yeah, then I go home. That's

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Speaker 2: a complete lie. If he had put her body at

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Speaker 2: knee depth in the ocean, she would have washed right

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Speaker 2: back up, So all of that is a lie. On

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Speaker 2: earlier occasions, he states that his father helped him secure

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Speaker 2: a boat and they went out into the ocean. End

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Speaker 2: quote took care of it, that being her body. But

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Speaker 2: let's jump into the here and the now is your

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Speaker 2: Vanderslute finally out of our country. Take a listen to

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Speaker 2: our cut a ourfends at crimeonline dot com.

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Speaker 9: Your in vnder Slute is no longer on US soil.

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Speaker 9: The thirty six year old Dutch national was released from

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Speaker 9: the Shelby County jail Monday just after midnight, escorted by

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Speaker 9: US Marshals to the Birmingham International Airport. The plane that

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Speaker 9: was supposed to fly Vanderslute back to Peru experienced some

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Speaker 9: type of mechanical issue and take off was delayed by

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Speaker 9: twenty four hours. However, now the man who confessed to

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Speaker 9: killing Alabama team Natalie Holloway in Aruba is officially back

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Speaker 9: in custody of Peruvian officials to serve out the rest

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Speaker 9: of his sentence for the murder of Stephanie Flores and

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Speaker 9: his concurrent sentence from the US for extorting money from

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Speaker 9: the Holloway family.

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Speaker 2: Trying to extort a half a million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To Herb Brand joining US a Senior Inspector, US Marshal Service,

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Speaker 2: International Investigations, Chief Inspector, Department Justice, Office of International Affairs,

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Speaker 2: best selling author which I believe are based on his

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Speaker 2: travels around the world, apprehending felons, killers, drug lords, Solo Shock,

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Speaker 2: Curse of the Blue Stone, and Flying Solo Top of

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Speaker 2: the World on Amazon v Brandt. How long is the

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Speaker 2: flight from the US from the Hugo Black Federal Courthouse

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Speaker 2: where he pled guilty to kick extortion to Lima, Peru.

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Speaker 10: Well, Nancy, it depends this was a charter flight of

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Speaker 10: the United States Marshall Service charter to private jet, and

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Speaker 10: they don't announce the flight paths for security reasons. But

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Speaker 10: they're going to have to fly from Alabama to a

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Speaker 10: point most likely Miami, refuel then fly from there to Lima, Peru.

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Speaker 10: And total flight time you're looking at between twelve fourteen hours,

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Speaker 10: but sometimes you have weather delays, you're delays and refueling

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Speaker 10: things like that, so it could take up to a

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Speaker 10: full day, maybe a day and a half from to.

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Speaker 2: Finish a day and a half, So possibly, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out. Carol Robinson, senior investigative reporter for al

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Speaker 2: dot Com. Carol, thank you for being with us. Can

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Speaker 2: we confirm he has touchdown in Peru?

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Speaker 8: Yes, he touched down at five point fifty eight pm

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Speaker 8: Eastern time. And I don't know what that is in Peru,

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Speaker 8: but the United States Eastern time, five fifty eight pm

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Speaker 8: on Tuesday, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: He is in Peru where he is serving a twenty

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Speaker 2: eight year sentence for the murder of another young lady.

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Speaker 2: Same mo O meets srind A casino, lures her away,

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Speaker 2: she ends up strangled and bludgeoned dead, and then the

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Speaker 2: same callous treatment of her and Nalie's case, He's dumped

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Speaker 2: her body in the ocean. According to him. In the

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Speaker 2: case of Stephanie Tasciana Flores in Peru, he sat at

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Speaker 2: the foot of her body and had his coffee and

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Speaker 2: croissant and read the page while she's lying dead in

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Speaker 2: the floor, her body not even cold. Twenty eight years

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Speaker 2: on that. Plus he's using and dealing drugs behind bars.

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Speaker 2: She got another sentence for that. That's where he's headed.

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Speaker 2: It's about a twenty two I've been told our drive

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Speaker 2: from the Lima Airport across the mountains to this Peruvian

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Speaker 2: fortress of a jail. I want to talk about that

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Speaker 2: flight or Brandt joining us. You said it was a

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Speaker 2: charter flight. This guy gets a charter flight, of course,

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Speaker 2: I don't want I'm sitting next to me on a plane.

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Speaker 2: But explain what you mean by that.

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Speaker 10: Well, a lot of prisoners can't be taken by commercial

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Speaker 10: flights just for security reasons, and a lot of it

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Speaker 10: depends on how high profile of the case that it.

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Speaker 2: Is high profile or how dangerous.

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Speaker 10: Is both It could be both. And the Martiall Service

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Speaker 10: will doesn't own the planes. But what they do is

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Speaker 10: they take bids from companies for these flights. And typically

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Speaker 10: chartered flight is six thousand dollars a flight hour. I

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Speaker 10: would imagine the total cost.

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Speaker 2: Well, did you say six thousand per flight hour?

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Speaker 10: That's correct. It doesn't go by the time that you

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Speaker 10: have the jet. It goes by The cost is by

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Speaker 10: how many hours the jet is in the air, and

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Speaker 10: typically it's around six thousand dollars per flight hour.

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Speaker 2: This guy's costing us a mintoul.

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Speaker 10: It would probably cost this flight to Lima. I've done

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Speaker 10: it before. I've done it to Peru, I've done it

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Speaker 10: to Columbia, I've done it to different places in Europe.

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Speaker 10: It's going to cost about between one hundred and one

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Speaker 10: hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's kind of a big chunk to swallow. But

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Speaker 2: the alternative is what having him sitting beside your daughter

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Speaker 2: on the plane correct in no way, no way.

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Speaker 10: And if he makes a fuss or the trice to

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Speaker 10: fight or anything like that, the pilot is in command

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Speaker 10: of the plane. You want to allow him on the flight,

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Speaker 10: and so you could end up being stuck. That's why

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Speaker 10: they do a chartered flight where the only people on

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Speaker 10: the plane are the flight crew, the United States Marshall Service,

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Speaker 10: and the prisoner.

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Speaker 2: So is he inside like a regular plane.

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Speaker 10: It is like a regular plane, Nancy. It's just like

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Speaker 10: any person who chartered a flight to be chartered a

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Speaker 10: Gulf Stream, a private jet. It's configured in the same

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Speaker 10: the same way all.

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Speaker 2: The states saw the bathrooms. Can he go to the

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Speaker 2: bathroom on the plane?

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Speaker 10: He can? He can?

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Speaker 2: Isn't that a risk? You're on Vandersloet walk around the

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Speaker 2: plane when he's going to a life sentence in a

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Speaker 2: Peruvian jail.

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Speaker 10: As I said, the only people on the plane or

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Speaker 10: the prisoner and the US marshals, and they're going to

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Speaker 10: take him. He's going to be fully restrained at all times.

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Speaker 10: He's going to be leg irons, waist chain cuffed to

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Speaker 10: his waist. They would take him to the bathroom. They're

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Speaker 10: not going to allow him to close the bathroom door.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying triple restraints, arm, waist.

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Speaker 10: Legs, that's that's correct. And whatever he's fed he said

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Speaker 10: by the United States Marshals Service.

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Speaker 2: Right, are you actually telling me he gets a meal

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Speaker 2: on the plank? What beef? Your chicken? What?

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Speaker 10: No? No, it's it's not like if you if you

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Speaker 10: were chartering the jet or flying first class.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're kidding you actually think they give you food

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Speaker 2: on delta in first class anymore? Not from what I

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Speaker 2: spotted from my spot in economy. They got crackers and chips,

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Speaker 2: just like everybody else.

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Speaker 10: But go ahead, right, he would have he would have

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Speaker 10: gotten a meal that was brought over from the jail,

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Speaker 10: whatever he would have had jail where we've been incarcerated.

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Speaker 10: They're going to bring him a meal.

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Speaker 2: You're making me feel a little bit better. So he

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Speaker 2: gets to go to the bathroom, even though I consider

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Speaker 2: that to be a danger, a serious danger on a plane,

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Speaker 2: because he's finally heading back to a twenty eight year

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Speaker 2: sentence plus eighteen for the drugs. This is maybe his

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Speaker 2: last chance. Although you got that twenty two hour drive

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Speaker 2: from Lima to the fortress of a prison across the country,

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Speaker 2: over the mountains. That would be a good, a wonderful

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Speaker 2: opportunity for him to try to escape. And from what

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Speaker 2: we hear, he's in route right now from the airport

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Speaker 2: to the prison. That would be a more likely, a

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Speaker 2: more likely escape scenario in my mind, to jump out

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Speaker 2: of a van, as opposed to what are you going

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Speaker 2: to do once you overpower the air marshal jump out

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Speaker 2: of the plane? No, not a good escape route. So

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Speaker 2: he gets all the way there, and I assume he's

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Speaker 2: shackled and that the air Marshals or the US Marshals

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Speaker 2: are armed at all times.

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Speaker 10: Well, Nancy, the marshals would be armed on the plane.

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Speaker 10: They wouldn't. They're not going to escort him to the prison.

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Speaker 10: They're only taking him to Lima. Then they'll turn them

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Speaker 10: over to the police at Nationale and then they'll escort him.

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Speaker 10: The marshals would would never get off the plane armed.

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Speaker 10: If they had to leave the plane for any reason,

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Speaker 10: they'd lock their weapons up on the plane.

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Speaker 2: I don't trust the local police at all. They're the

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Speaker 2: ones allowing him to have booze, drugs and conjugal visits

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Speaker 2: behind bars. What else will they do while they're transporting

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Speaker 2: him twenty two hours on a drive? Would they let

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Speaker 2: him go? I don't know the answer to that, But

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Speaker 2: you have taken these flights. What happens on the flight

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Speaker 2: or brand, Well.

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Speaker 10: It's pretty much like any other flight. Once you get

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Speaker 10: the prisoner on the flight, and like you said, he's

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Speaker 10: full leasures string you're going to put them in the seat.

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Speaker 2: You're going to Is he shackled to the seat?

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Speaker 10: No, he's shackled by leg irons. He's shackled by a

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Speaker 10: waste chain where his hands are cuffed to his waist.

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Speaker 10: Then he'd be strapped into the seat and there's going

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Speaker 10: to be at least four deputy US marshals on the flight.

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Speaker 10: He's not going to overpower for deputy US marshals while

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Speaker 10: restrained by his waist and his life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, doctor Bethany Marshall. It's not like he's

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Speaker 2: with a defenseless teen girl who he's just drugged with GHB.

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Speaker 2: This time is for air marshals, US marshals, you know.

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Speaker 5: And the thing that makes me laugh about that I

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Speaker 5: think of the crime with Natalie Valloway. Of course that's

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Speaker 5: nothing to laugh about, but sex and aggression get fused.

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Speaker 5: They're one and the same. That that's part of the

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Speaker 5: m of the crime. He's not going to get away

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Speaker 5: with that on this plane, right this is the first time,

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Speaker 5: well yeah, the first time. This guy could have come

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Speaker 5: up with bullies bigger than him. Not that a US

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Speaker 5: Air Force marshals are bulliefs, That's not what I'm saying,

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Speaker 5: but people who are stronger, people who are more powerful.

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Speaker 5: He has never experienced that in his life. It's like Murdoch.

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Speaker 5: When Murdoch went to jail, no one had ever gone

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Speaker 5: against him. So this is kind of a disorienting experience

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Speaker 5: for soocio paths.

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Speaker 11: They don't think that.

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Speaker 5: The other person is more powerful, so they will try

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Speaker 5: to fight them, and then they will realize that they

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Speaker 5: have that they have met a greater folk.

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Speaker 2: So right now we believe that you're on. Vander Slute

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Speaker 2: is probably already in a transport van, which I certainly

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Speaker 2: hope is heavily guarded and has all the safety features

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Speaker 2: we have in the US. But what now, Carol Robinson,

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Speaker 2: I understand that Aruba wants the US file, including your

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Speaker 2: Vanderslut's confession. Correct.

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Speaker 12: Yes, they told us that within you know a day

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Speaker 12: of all of the confession being released and his guilty plead.

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Speaker 12: We spoke with the prosecutor's office there said it would

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Speaker 12: take some time to review it.

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Speaker 2: Of course they haven't already had twenty years. Also with

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Speaker 2: me right now two incredible guests. TJ. Ward is joining

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Speaker 2: us from TJ. Ward and Associates. He is the private

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Speaker 2: investigator that worked on the Natalie Holloway case. And Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, like Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, Professor of forensics

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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 2: and host of a hit series Body Bags. First to you, TJ.

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Speaker 5: Ward.

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Speaker 2: I have another problem, and that is I know that

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Speaker 2: Yourn van der Sloot killed a sedated girl, a teen

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Speaker 2: American girl in Aruba, and he has never been brought

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Speaker 2: to justice for that murder. I know that he murdered

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Speaker 2: Stephanie Tasciana Floydes. He has been brought to justice on that.

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Speaker 2: He got a in my mind, a light sentence twenty

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Speaker 2: eight years. I know that he island hopped and from

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Speaker 2: Aruba and along the Netherland Antilles. You can go from

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Speaker 2: one spot to the next very easily. But you and

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Speaker 2: your team uncovered in the search for Natalie's remains crushed

390
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Speaker 2: dog bones, and in those dog bones were crushed human remains.

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Speaker 2: What was the gender of the human bones?

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Speaker 13: They were a female that was later learned that it

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Speaker 13: was not Natalie Holloways, but it was a female's bones.

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Speaker 2: Of European descent. Female bones of European descent. Okay, who

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Speaker 2: is she? Who is that? Do we have any idea

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Speaker 2: who that woman is?

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Speaker 13: We have no idea. When the bones were turned over

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Speaker 13: to the Reuben authorities, they claim the Ruben authorities claim

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Speaker 13: that the bones were all animal bones. The bones were

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Speaker 13: turned over to Dave Holloway and I and we sent

401
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Speaker 13: those bones to Washington, d C. To be tested, and

402
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Speaker 13: we learned that one of the bones was human and

403
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Speaker 13: it was a white. It was a female European, but

404
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Speaker 13: it was not Ali Holloways. To this day we do

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Speaker 13: not know whose bones they were, and Aruba is denying

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Speaker 13: that there was a human bone within those remains.

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Speaker 2: Is nobody worried that in some way your vander Slout

408
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Speaker 2: is connected to a third set of human female remains.

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Speaker 2: Okay to you or Brant, help me, help me? I mean,

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Speaker 2: how easy is it for your Vanderslute to go from

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Speaker 2: Aruba to the Netherland, Antilles to Dutch homeland? He hops

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Speaker 2: from place to place with impunity. How many women are missing?

413
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Speaker 2: How many women could be dead? And there remains here

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Speaker 2: and we've never found Natalie's remains. Now we've got this

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Speaker 2: third set of remains that is connected to they are

416
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Speaker 2: connected to your Vanderslute. They've got Stephanie Tossi outa Florida's

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Speaker 2: how many more are there? Or Brandt? What's the possibility?

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Speaker 10: There's no way to tell, Nancy. It's like you said,

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Speaker 10: he is a Dutch citizen. He can go from island

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Speaker 10: to island island. There could be victims all across those islands.

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Speaker 10: We have no way to know.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, is nobody worried about this third set of

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Speaker 2: amaze but me? And how many other victims could be

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Speaker 2: out there?

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Speaker 4: I think everybody's concerned. I know when we first started

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Speaker 4: talking about the human bone mixed with a dog bone,

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Speaker 4: we're like just stopped. Nobody went the extra mile to

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Speaker 4: try to figure out who is this girl? Has anybody

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Speaker 4: reported somebody else missing? It's also being ignored because we

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Speaker 4: know what the Ruben authorities did with Natalie. If it

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Speaker 4: had not been for Beth Holloway, we wouldn't be here today.

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Speaker 2: To Joe Scott Morgan, help me out, Joe Scott, what

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Speaker 2: if anything can be done?

434
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 10: Now?

435
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: It's like this woman doesn't even exist, just like Cheryl said,

436
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: oh dog bones mixed with the human female? What human

437
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: female bones remains crushed in with a dog remains And

438
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: no one is investigating. No one's calling on a ruba

439
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: calling them out going, No, this is female remains. Why

440
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: aren't you doing anything?

441
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 7: Here's the deal. They, by virtue of what we've heard,

442
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 7: have already developed some kind of DNA profile. It would

443
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 7: sound like. So here's the question. If you have this profile,

444
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 7: which Fitz, we have one category female, We have European.

445
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 7: Now you can delineate between they can between Western European

446
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 7: and Eastern European and that's called phenotyping. Here's the thing.

447
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 7: How many other people are missing on the island. Have

448
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 7: they had track, you know, just a cursor research and it.

449
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: Could be a tourist as well. So they might not

450
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: even have a record of that person.

451
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 7: If you go back, for example, this woman Robin Gardner

452
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 7: who went missing back in I think twenty eleven on Aruba.

453
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 7: You know, if you have profiles of individuals like that,

454
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 7: you take the profile that you have, okay, that you

455
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 7: actually possess from this questioned bone that was co mingled

456
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 7: with these animal bones, and they have living relatives that

457
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 7: are out there. You do a comparison between those living

458
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 7: relatives and the sample that you do have to try

459
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 7: to narrow the field down. And you know, as you

460
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 7: well know, Nancy, you know the leaps and bounds that

461
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 7: they're going to with, you know, forensic genealogy. At this point,

462
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 7: it's advanced so much further now that I think that

463
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 7: they could put a fine point. The question is this

464
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 7: Aruba has shied away from anything that is going to

465
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 7: give them even a bigger black eye. I don't know

466
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 7: how much bigger it could get. But are they willing

467
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 7: Are they willing to tear down those barriers and say, listen,

468
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 7: we're going to put We're going to put families ahead

469
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 7: of what our bottom dollar is here.

470
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: Its not going to happen.

471
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 7: No, I don't think it is. I really am.

472
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

473
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: The fact that there are other victims actually ties into

474
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 5: his confession the way Jordan Vanderslute did the confession. It's

475
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 5: like an addict, a sex addict, reliving and retelling a

476
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 5: story that he has lived in his mind many, many,

477
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 5: many times in jail. When sex addicts come to my office,

478
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 5: they tell about their exploits in a way that they're reliving,

479
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 5: like they're getting aroused while they're telling the story. And

480
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 5: I usually send them right back out of my office

481
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 5: and say I can't treat them. But his confession was

482
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 5: something he relieved I believe as a master pory fantasy

483
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 5: in the jail. And what that tells me is this

484
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 5: is not his first time at the rodeo. He did

485
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 5: this many many times with women. If you think of

486
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 5: him maybe first as a serial killer, secondly as a

487
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: sex addict. Third is somebody who was so compulsive he

488
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 5: was on the prowl all the time. There have to

489
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 5: be other victims.

490
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 11: There's no way.

491
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.

492
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: I want to follow up on what Joe Scott Morgan

493
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: and doctor Anthony Marshaller is saying to IRV and Gary Davison.

494
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: First with you, Gary Davison and TJ. Warp, please jump in,

495
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: Gary Davidson, as you know, partner Diez lewis international law firm.

496
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: Take a look at the map. Aruba is situated right

497
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: there between Venezuela, Colombia Panama. You think they've got a

498
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: cracked police force that even care about tourists. No, they're

499
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: too busy with the drugs trade in Colombia. So you

500
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: got Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Kirosou bon Air, which is it's

501
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: a puddle jumper from Barnair to Aruba, and Barnair is desolate.

502
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: There is like goats. They're going to find a dead

503
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: body there. No, it will decompose before anybody even knows

504
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: it existed. Not too far from Puerto Rico, Dominican Cubas.

505
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: That's a stretch. To the US, that's a stretch. But

506
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: there are so many places he could have gone.

507
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 14: Gary Davidson, Yes, and tracking that down could be difficult,

508
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 14: particularly in connection with the Dutch Islands because as you.

509
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 6: Know, that very often when you have a passport that

510
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 6: allows you free reign in neighboring affiliated countries like uh

511
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 6: would be the case with Bonair and put us out.

512
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: He may have.

513
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 6: Gotten in and gotten out without having to have a

514
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 6: date stay, a stamp put on, or any record of

515
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 6: his of his visits, so you're searching for a needle

516
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 6: in a haystack. It's extraordinarily difficult. Without a concentrated effort

517
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 6: to determine his whereabouts at various particular points in time,

518
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 6: it would be almost impossible to trace this, especially given

519
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 6: the amount of time that's transpired since since since the

520
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 6: murder of Natalie Island A TJ.

521
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: Ward with me private investigator that worked on the Natalie

522
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: Holloway case from TJ. Ward and associates, TJ. When you

523
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: first saw the bones crushed as they were specifically crushed

524
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: so hopefully nobody could figure out that there were human

525
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: female bones included, what did it look like? TJ?

526
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 13: Well, what was surprising when there was First when the

527
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 13: bones were first found, there was only three bones in there.

528
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 13: And then when the bones got turned over to law enforcement,

529
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 13: when Gabriel turned the bones over, when I called the

530
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 13: chief of police, there were four bones and so we

531
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 13: knew something wasn't right. And the Uruba authorities claimed after

532
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 13: three weeks that they had the bones tested and they

533
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 13: were animal bones. And I questioned them, I said, well,

534
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 13: what kind of animal bones were they? Oh, they were

535
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 13: just animal bones. Well, after the bones were turned over

536
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 13: to me and we took had those bones tested in Washington,

537
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 13: d C. They came back and said there was a

538
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 13: human bone in the mix of all those bones, so

539
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 13: we knew something was bad back wrong. The rub authorities

540
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 13: did not test those bones.

541
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: Why are they still dying with me? TJ. Ward, who

542
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: was on the scene in Eruba saw these bones had

543
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: he personally had them tested in DC and they are

544
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: in fact human female bones mixed in with dog bones

545
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: or brant If Aruba won't follow up, would never follow

546
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: it up on Nali Hollway. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, you

547
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: know what happened, best mother and I got detained by police,

548
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: threatened with the rest. If they're going to do that

549
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: to us, Cheryl, you really think they're going to follow

550
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: up on this third murder victim.

551
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 4: There's not a chance. But I say depending on where

552
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 4: who has the bone? Now, let's get it to offer them,

553
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 4: Let's go to ourselves.

554
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 13: We have we still have possession of some of the bones.

555
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 13: They are stored and put away in Washington, DC right

556
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 13: now with the company that and the investigator that had

557
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 13: the bones test for us. We still have copies of them.

558
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 13: So we still have the bones so that.

559
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: Could be tested for instance, at ath Ram Labs, who

560
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: specializes in very difficult to analyze DNA data. I mean,

561
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: they can identify DNA that's been underwater, that's old, that's

562
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: been mixed with other DNA just like this, So it

563
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: is possible. Or Brent, why is there no motivation for

564
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: Aruba to do the right thing?

565
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 10: Aruba doesn't want to open that can work. They don't

566
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 10: want to look into this any further. They want this

567
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 10: case to be over. They want people to quit talking

568
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 10: about it. If they start investigating one case, that will

569
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 10: lead just like everyone on your panel is saying, if

570
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 10: you start investigating one case, it's going to open other

571
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 10: cases that's been very soon. It's going to be all

572
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 10: over the news of all these murder cases, of all

573
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 10: these people disappearing. And that's the last thing in the

574
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 10: world they want.

575
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious about what's going to happen to him

576
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: in a room. But now, Cheryl McCollum was sitting with

577
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: me in the courtroom when jord vandersleyt was sentenced by

578
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: the judge and the Hego Black Federal Courthouse a little

579
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: over a week ago. Cheryl McCollum I noticed the judge

580
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: kept saying, if for any reason, you're released early in Peru.

581
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: I did not like that. I mean, she was correct,

582
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: of course, she's a brilliant judge. By the way, it

583
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: made me think that she believes he could be released

584
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 2: early in Peru.

585
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought she would get a beautiful job. And

586
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: several times she was looking right at him and his

587
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 4: attorney and she clarified, do you understand what I'm saying?

588
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 4: Do both of you agree? Have both of you signed this?

589
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: So I think she was making sure that he knew

590
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 4: if you think you're going to go back there and

591
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: come up with some you know, ogie dope to get

592
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 4: out of here, some scam, some con, you're going to

593
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 4: come right back here and see this whole thing through.

594
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: But if they released him in Peru or Brent, how

595
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: are we going to get him back here?

596
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 10: The Office of International Affairs will work with the Peruvian government,

597
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 10: and if he comes up for release, the US Marshal

598
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 10: Service will go back down there and they'll bring him

599
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 10: back to the United States so he can serve his

600
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 10: twenty years in federal prison. If he is to your question,

601
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 10: if he is released without Office of International Affairs being

602
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 10: notified then it would become a fugitive investigation and he

603
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 10: would be the Marshall Service would track him to whatever country.

604
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he'll get tracked. You know, we were talking

605
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: about him puddle jumping between islands and countries. The wake

606
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: of pain he's left behind him everywhere he goes is unimaginable.

607
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: I want to circle back to the possibility, the remote

608
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: possibility that Aruba asked for the US file, including his

609
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: confession to murdering Natalie, so a prosecution can go forward.

610
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: Gary Davison, It's so hard for me to believe that

611
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: Ariba actually has a twelve year statute of limitations on murder.

612
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 2: Is this true?

613
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 10: Yes, they do.

614
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 6: Have a uh that limitation. It's interesting under and and

615
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 6: you know remember there their system is a civil law system,

616
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 6: it's not a common law system. Uh So the view

617
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 6: on these sorts of things is a little bit different

618
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 6: in those sorts of jurisdictions. For example, uh the the

619
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,959
Speaker 6: Dutch don't have the death penalty. The most of any

620
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 6: any any victim can expect, or a family of a

621
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 6: victim can expect, is life imprisonment for someone who murders

622
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 6: one of their family members.

623
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: And Aruba is a Dutch territory.

624
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 6: Correct, yes, yes, yes it is, and it's incorporated many

625
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 6: of the the Dutch civil law approaches to its church pridence.

626
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 6: Interestingly enough, the Dutch are very as you probably know

627
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 6: from historical reference, the Dutch are very sensitive to particular

628
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 6: issues like genocide, crimes against humanity and so forth, and

629
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 6: their laws reflect that. And interestingly enough, the Dutch do

630
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 6: not have estati of limitations for such crimes.

631
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: Then, if it's a Dutch territory, why does the room

632
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: have a twelve year statute?

633
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 6: Well, remember that the crime against humanity in genocide are

634
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 6: defined terms in international law, and they form what is

635
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 6: considered to be a concept called us cogens and it's

636
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 6: spelled jus space cog e n s, He's coach and

637
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 6: another that concept in international law. Any violation of a

638
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 6: use coach and standard can lead to imprisonment.

639
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I still don't know why ruby is a twelve

640
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: year statute on murder, but a photo has just emerged.

641
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: Orn Vandersloot, Nowie Holloway's killer, who confess an open court

642
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: to killing Natalie being handed over to Peruvian police. He

643
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 2: still is shackled at the waist, the hands the wrists

644
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: and the legs triple shackle. He's wearing a bulletproof vest

645
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: from Enterpol and he's smiling at the Peruvian authorities. The

646
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: Peruvian authorities do not look amused at all. So as

647
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: we go to air now he is en route to

648
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: his Peruvian fortress jail. Everyone was claiming, Oh, he wants

649
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: to stay in the US for the great treatment. No

650
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: he doesn't, because in Peru he gets booze, drugs and

651
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: unlimited conjugal visits behind bars, So he wants to go

652
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: back to Peru. My only question is will he be

653
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: released early and will we be ready? We wait as

654
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 2: justice own faults. Goodbye Saint