WEBVTT - HBO's Sheila Nevins Makes Docs Hot 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.399 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.400 If you've been moved by a documentary in the past 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.360 forty years, there's a chance you have Sheila Nevins to thank. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:23.760 As head of HBO documentary Films since nine she's exerted 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.280 more influence on the medium than perhaps anyone in its history, 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.800 so much so that The New York Times says filmmakers 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:35.200 quote fret about her outsized power, but also worry about 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.959 what will happen when she's gone. Sheila Nevins has overseen 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.639 the production of literally hundreds of documentaries, which have won 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.200 dozens of Oscars, and she's credited or blamed for being 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.960 one of the creators of reality television through nineties hits 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.480 like Real Sex and Taxi Cab Confessions. Whether they're shot 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.000 in a war zone or the back of a taxi, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:04.080 Sheila nevins productions are powerful, brazen, and unflinchingly honest. But 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.800 when it comes to telling her own story, truth gets trickier. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.679 Her new book, You Don't Look Your Age and Other 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.959 Fairy Tales blends fiction and reality. It's not a bio, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.679 as someone said to me, it's a sly memoir. Who 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:19.680 counsel do you want? How to write the book? Who? Nobody? 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.880 Nobody nobody? You knew instinctively to do this this way. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.559 I have no idea what's right. I knew when to hide, 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.080 and I knew when to over here, and I knew 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.160 the names of the characters without ever some of them 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.880 are Sheila, and some of them are Priscilla or Melissa. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.319 And I was going to do that in my book, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.840 and I didn't maybe nicer than me, more honest, I 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.560 just felt that when I gave the character name, I 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.600 protected a lot of people, or when I overheard it, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.000 I wasn't in it, and then I could write more 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.160 freely about the truth of it. I don't know that 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.360 I could have written certain things if it had been me. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.400 In her book, Nevin's uses a few characters to paint 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.240 a portrait of the male dominated world she navigated. Only 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.400 one of those characters is named Sheila Nevans, but they're 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.079 all strong, smart women who fight and sleep their way 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.200 to the top. In a way, the sexual politics of 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.920 the sixties and seventies is a sideshow. Sheila nevans true 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.280 passion is to immerse herself in the lives of her subjects, 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.840 and like many passions, this one makes you suffer. I mean, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.280 I think if you're a surgeon, the person is anesthetized 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.400 when you're cutting out their heart, but when you're making 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.520 a documentary, the person is alive and kicking and they 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.400 stay with you. Um, you know, I can't explain it. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.400 When you go to sleep at night, they they interrupt 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.600 counting sheep. You know, you see, you see sadness all 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.960 the time. There's a lot of suffering in this world. 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.680 There's a lot of people who have no way out. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.240 I mean, we have a way out, We have a 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.799 way out, more options, we have more options, and without empathy, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.720 there's no humanity. And I think docus are the last 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.960 resort for effective if that's the right use of the 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.679 word feeling for someone you didn't know. That's a great 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.120 thing about a document You turn it on, it's in 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.760 your living room. Okay, you didn't invite it. You thought 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.320 i'll try it, and then suddenly you're crying for someone 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.040 you never knew before, and they're not. It's not an 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.320 actor playing apart. It's not something that was scripted. It's 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.640 another human being trying to live in this country or 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.000 another country. And it stays with you. It's very difficult. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.880 I mean you really, you really agonize. I agonize. I'm 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.440 not happy. Just squoke into that closet full of Emmys 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.040 and oscars. You have them, make you happy that you 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.280 should fall on your foot, and their doorstoppers for most 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.800 couple of I don't have them. But pick one if 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.320 you can, and tell us a bit about one that 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.960 really really just crushed you. What was the one that 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.120 was an extraordinarily difficult experience for you to bring that 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.880 film to the public. Maybe the one about even though 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.480 it was by far not the best documentary on HBO. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.320 But because I had been there twenty five years before, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.960 I was willing to come out as a parent of 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.800 a child who had Tourette's and my son David, Yeah, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.920 and so I think that with his permission, I was 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:19.800 able to write about it my book. But mainly I 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.159 was able to make a film for schools so that 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.599 kids that had Turets would not be bullied because it was, um, 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.320 you know, if you're a fat you were bullied, If 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.960 you studded, you were bullied. But if you had Tourette's, 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.200 nobody knew what you had. They thought you were dopey, 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.680 they push you, they'd imitate you. This one was tough 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:39.760 because I had to go to my bosses and say, 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.599 I want to make this film about Turette's doesn't affect everybody. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.880 I want to do it for my kid. And this 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.560 is a big place called HBO, and they said do it. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.280 You've earned it, and I did it. Now for people 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:57.000 who don't understand Tourette's beyond you know, the outbursts, the 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.839 vocal outbursts and so forth, when did you when do 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:01.840 you first become aware of a child having that? At 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.840 what ages? And exhibit itself? Well, the vocal outbursts are 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.360 less than five percent, So the fact that that's called copperalia, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.320 and um, that means that you yell four letter words? 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.320 Can I say them on this show? I think our 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:18.040 answers if you're here, they know, okay. So the kid 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.000 who yells funck shit, fuck you, fuck you in your 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.359 ask your motherfuck that is less than five percent, But 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.839 the media has it's the most it. First of all, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.040 it gave the media chance to use the words and 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.200 bleep them and make it exciting. And secondly, it was 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:39.559 unfair to the kids. But people like Robin Williams. There's 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.520 also a very interesting part of Turetts, which is called 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:49.039 eiliad that yes, where imitative behavior is part of the affliction. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.200 So in other words, you go to a movie, you 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.960 come back. The kid does the whole almost the whole movie, 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.760 and does the actual sounds of the voices of the 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.920 different people. But the film is difficult film. It was 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.120 very painful because, for one, I had to tell David 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.320 we were going to do it too. Um. He had 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.600 to be willing to come out as a kid who 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.400 had to read. We both agreed that it was a 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.760 necessary film. It wasn't great, but it was useful. You 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.240 know that there are different kinds of document What about 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.240 a filmmaker, meaning you have people coming in, they all, 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.680 you know, many of them want something from you, They 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.560 want you to help. But I cast I cast the 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.040 films the way you would cast a movie, you know, 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.359 And I try to find filmmakers who have a passion 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.520 for a subject, and then I try to put them 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.440 together with that subject. So if it's me a maximum 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.880 copa about abuses, let's say in the Catholic church, I'll 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.960 find someone who is a renegade Catholic to be able 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.520 to go after it both with the passion of being 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.839 a kid who's brought up that way and at the 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.960 same time someone who's able to look at it with 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:53.000 with the right amount of subjective involvement. And in that 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.240 case it turned out to be Alex Gibney. But it's 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.680 very different. I mean, Alexander Pelosi is doing a film 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.480 for us now on everybody says, let's do an anti 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.280 Trump film. Okay, I must get five pictures a day 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.680 about let's do this, Let's do who voted, Let's do 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.960 the Democrats who voted, Let's do the women the college 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.440 graduated every day, there's something. And so it occurred to 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:13.920 us that maybe what we should do is go back 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.960 to the founding fathers. Maybe we should go back to 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.440 the dream of what democracy was. And so this film 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.680 is about the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence in the 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.400 Bill of Rights. And I watched it last night, pretty late, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.560 and I found myself getting weepy over the dream, you know, 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:34.200 not laughing at it, but weepy over the original, into 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.400 the beauty of it, the beauty of being free from 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.840 the king. And in the descriptions of breaking away from 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.120 the king, it was as if it was on you know, 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:47.480 CNN that night the king had just transmigrated into somebody else, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:52.560 and it was terrifying and also illuminating about the prophetic 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:57.240 vision of the founding fathers. It's really extraordinarily interesting and 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.320 at the same time, you know complex, but you know, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:05.080 this whole country was founded on getting away from from 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.640 a dictatorship. So who's someone and I'm being euphemistic here 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.240 when you have the agenda in the morning and you 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.760 come into the office and you see this name is 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.000 coming in to see you, and you got really excited. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.360 Who's a filmmaker? You thought, oh God, he's coming in today, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.680 or she's coming in today. Who's someone you just loved 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.800 working with. I love working with John Albert because he's fearless, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:31.080 because we send him to Baghdad, to the Green Zone 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.839 and um just to look at wounded gies. And he 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.640 called me up and he said, there's a real story 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.319 here of the camaraderie of the wounded to the wounded. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.400 Can I stay? And I was very moved by it 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.760 because I felt that I had earned the right to say, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:50.199 without checking through the hierarchy, stay there, just stay there 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.400 and tell his story. And you did, and we did 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.840 and we were able to stay there. It's called Baghdaddy 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.520 Are and it turned out to be about a hospital 0:08:58.080 --> 0:08:59.960 and in the process there was a young marine who 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.520 is dying. And he dies in the process of the 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.199 film and we film it and um he was a 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.120 marine and the Army, I guess you called. The army 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.640 said that we could use the footage provided the mother 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.080 would see the film. We called her. Turns out she 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:15.960 was an emergency room nurse and she said, may I 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.040 see this film. You know, at this point I'm not 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.439 intimidated by much, but I was intimidated by this woman 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.080 watching the death of her child. Paula came in to 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.640 HBO and she came with her husband and she said, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.480 may I see it alone? And we put it on 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.280 and I kissed her. I didn't even know her, and 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.640 I shut the door and we played it and she 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.960 watched her son die. She came out and she said, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:44.640 come here, and I thought, oh my god, what did 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.959 I do? What did I do just for this great scene? 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.200 I'm such a funk up. She came in, she said, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.520 my son got the same care there that he would 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.320 have gotten in a hospital in New York City. There 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.000 was a priest Overraymo's cathol and he said a prayer 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.960 and she said, do me one favorite, sweetheart, just cover 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.200 his face. I don't want his friends to see him go. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.680 And she became the associate producer of the next film 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.240 because a year later I called her. This is the 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.120 thing when something stays with you, because all you can 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.320 think of is what if it was my son? And 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.520 a year later I called her up and I said, Paula, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.320 how are you. She said, I'm with Robert. Robert was 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.400 the name of her son. So I said, you know, 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.040 I think she was in church. What do I I 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.760 didn't know her that well. And she was in Arlington. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.280 She was in Section sixty of Arlington where the wounded 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.240 that didn't make it, you know, the young men and 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.600 women who died um and if Afghanistan and Iraq were buried. 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.800 It's a special section. And I said, you're with Robert. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.840 She said, yes, I'm at Arlington. And I said what 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.040 are you doing there? She said, I'm talking to Robert. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.640 And I said are you alone? She said, Now, there 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.560 are lots of people here. There are relatives, there are children, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.640 there are friends. You know. I called up John Albert 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.000 and I said, John, I said first. I said, Paula, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.280 how long will you be there? She said, I'm going 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.920 to stay till tomorrow. And I said, would you mind 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.040 if John came, because she had known him from Bagdaddy 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:17.640 Are and John went it hid in a tree and 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.640 they watched the full house of people coming to be 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.319 with their lost children. There was a guy there. I 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:26.840 think it's one of the best films we ever did. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.000 There was a guy there. I'm sorry all you other 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:30.880 people who made films, they're good too, but this one 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.800 really got me. There was a guy there who was 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.839 the uncle of a dead soldier, and he brought him 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.160 his favorite drink and he spilled it on the grave. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.360 And it was a chilly day in June, and Paula 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.560 had taken off her coat and put it over Robert's 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.439 grave so he wouldn't be cold. It was a surreal, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:56.439 amazing experience. And um, you can't drive by Arlington anymore 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:01.400 without that resonating in you. They'll tremendous lowsome sorrow. And 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.400 then there was a kid there who came to put 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.720 flowers on it. A little, tiny little girl maybe three 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.320 or four, putting flowers on her daddy's grave because it 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.920 was her birthday and she wanted to know that she 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.079 missed him. And then so in the midst of all, 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.920 there is the drink being poured, the coat on the grave. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.840 You couldn't write this. There's no way you could write this. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.480 If somebody wrote it, they think it was Schmaltz. Let 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.720 me ask you this, which is maybe some kind of 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:28.160 a stereo track. You can um you can try to 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.160 paint a picture from me what the what the company 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.360 was like when you started, because when I always joke 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.960 with people that HBO. When I was first living in 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.160 New York in the early eighties, HBO would come on 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.080 and they had that theme song that sounds like an 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:45.720 ISRAELI played the same like MTV. They played Billie Idol 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:47.840 and Flock of Seagulls all day long. They had the 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:53.040 same two fucking videos over and over again. An HBO show, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.679 An HBO showed what was that show? Brian ben Ben 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.400 dream On, Brian ben Ben dream On, the husband of 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.560 Madaline Stough, the Great Medal and Stow And so in 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.040 that time, how was it changed, and how was it 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.080 changed for you as a woman in the business. Since 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:08.840 in your time, I'm not sure how much has changed 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.800 I really argue, I don't think so. I don't really 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.800 think so. I think I was an anomaly. So I 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.280 was not a threat because who else was going to 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.920 work twenty hours a day, have a sick kid, take 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.400 all the jokes, do the whole thing. I've had nine 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.880 bosses in thirty five years. It's pretty hard because each 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.160 one was a magic slate, so anything you've done before 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.360 was unknown or not necessarily valid to them because I 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.120 had to re establish themselves. So it was Listen, I'm 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.040 not complaining. I've had the greatest job in the world, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.400 but I was an anomaly. Who what woman wanted to 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.920 work twenty hours a day? Who wanted to do docues? Anyway? 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.679 It was an eight hour services So it was tough 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.480 for you as a woman. What was hard not getting pinched. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.959 That's the great advantage to getting older. You're from the neck. Yeah, 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.040 it's nick up now, But do I do don't do 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.600 with that In the early days, maybe okay, I want 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.760 to keep mind job, Okay, but not even yes. Of 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:06.920 course I had to do deal with that. Of course 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.160 I did, and I dealt with it readily and aggressively 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.800 and happily because I didn't know any better and I, 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.120 I mean, I've discussed this with Gloria Steinum. It was 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.400 the only thing I knew. I wanted that job badly. 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.120 I wanted to make something of it. And if it required, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.040 you know, a hand on a knee or whatever else, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.440 you overlooked. I looked, but then I turned away. I 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.880 wouldn't say I overlooked. I felt it deep down, but 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.040 I you weren't compromise in some in some extreme way. 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.280 People just took it was the rules of the game. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:41.880 I thought it was the rules of the game. Why 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:43.760 would I know it was like shooting a gun. You know, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.880 I don't like it, but I need to learn how 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.040 I knew that was the way I did what I 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.840 had to do. You didn't want me to not get 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.520 this job, did you. I'm glad that you were as 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:57.120 open minded to the benefit of the documentary, happily slutty, 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.640 happily so because I didn't know anything else. The job 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.600 was worth more than my sexual identity. There were no 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.520 human resources to protect me. There was nothing, and I 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:15.000 was pretty you had no exactly, you had no protector, no, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.120 no protector, and I wanted to do it and to 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.480 give it away. Yeah, I just had just gotten married. Yeah, 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.520 at the time, would you go home and like, did 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.320 your husband know that you were enduring all this groping 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.600 in those crap? No, because I could brush it off. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.480 You know, I've done a lot of shows with hookers, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.720 and I've done a lot of stuff. At cat House 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.400 in Las Vegas. Were the men being taken advantage of 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.120 all the women? Have you ever seen our Catouse show? 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.040 They bought a hundred books the cathouse, you see. I 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:49.840 don't have anyone else probably giving it out now, the book. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.480 When you make films and you get involved, you're giving notes, 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.240 you're telling them. I'm watching the clip of you from 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.800 Alexandra's thing where you're saying I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored. 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.200 And what you were looking for in a film, what 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.800 you're expecting of a filmmaker of a film. Did you 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.760 expect the same of yourself when you wrote this book? 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.080 You did? Okay? Talk about that? Why? Because in a 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.680 strange way, I wrote the book in a very selfish way, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.440 and when I'm in an editing room, I don't think 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.360 I'm particularly selfish. I wrote it because I didn't want 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.400 to be the legend of documentaries. I didn't want to 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:25.960 be a docu diva. What did you want to be? 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.760 I wanted to be a person. Like everybody? Are you 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.120 in this book? I think so? Would you say that 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.120 there's some writing here that's the equivalent of the plastic 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.760 surgery of writing without questions? There's a lot of plastic 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.800 surgery in this a lot. There's enough. I mean, you 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.080 said I looked good, so it must be enough. And 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.160 if the book sells, good for you. If the book 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:49.520 doesn't realis as you look. So the plastic surgery in 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.880 the writing as well part of it, that's only part 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.400 of it. Why does everybody pick up the plastic surgery? 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.800 I remember the lawyer from UM McMillan asking me if 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.960 there was someone named Melissa, Melissa van Holden boss sleeps 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.320 with her boss. It's the sixties and she can't get 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.160 ahead any other way. And um he called and he said, 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.960 do you know anyone named Melissa? And Mr Penny Broth 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.560 is the name of the boss? Now, who is named 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.240 Mr Penny Broth? Let's be real, he said, is, but 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:23.200 it just came. The name came, Um, Mr Penny Broth, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.520 you know, fuck Melissa? And Melissa got a promotion and 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.000 it was three. It wasn't her fault and that's the 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.880 way that was. Were the rules of the game? Right? Well, 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.520 I mean they drove me crazy. Is there anyone named 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:38.440 Melissa at HBO? I said, I'm sure there are a 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.520 number of women named Melissa? Here? Is there? Mr Pennybroth? 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.480 Have you ever worked for Mr? Penny Broth? I said, 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.679 nobody would have the name Mr Pennybroth. They said, you 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.280 never know. So then I looked in the you know, 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.679 I typed it into my iPad. I couldn't find a 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.400 Penny Broth similar. But I don't know where those names 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.439 came from. So is it really am I hiding? If 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.000 there's nobody by that name, then is it there must 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:05.119 be me? Right? I don't know the answer, but I 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.840 mean I don't still don't know. It might not be 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.080 the bravest riding in the world, but it's very interesting. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.800 Brave I never would say I was brave. I'm honest 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.359 about adultery. It's also about I don't care about falling 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.679 in and out of love. It's also about anti Semitism. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.800 It's also about your heart being broken. Can we pick 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.080 let's stop there. Can we pick one topic? Are you 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.520 talking about adultery. Who's adultery? Certainly not my own? Okay, 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.360 not your own. How do I know those eyes of yours? 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.719 You've got those wonderful eyes, and in the morning they 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.439 don't I don't want to know what they looking at 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.679 the more, that's not my business. Is not my business. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.040 You've been happily married to Sydney all these years, of course, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.919 And did you ever describe what it's like for you 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.680 to fall in love? Because you're pretty tough broad, You're 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.320 a pretty no nonsense woman. You're tough, well, I mean 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.679 in a good way. Would it like to fall in love? 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.760 Love redefines itself as you get older, when you fell 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.080 in love with him? What did you fall in love with? Sydney? 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.480 Or my heartbreak? In my book both take sax to 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:13.000 Sydney first. No, my heartbreak first, my heartbreak. This is 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.160 my show. No, it's my show now, I mean, where 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.040 would you be without me sitting here? You'll be talking 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:25.760 to yourself. Heartbreak happens once, I believe real heartbreak. What happened? 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.760 You don't repair describe the situation? We'll do what you do. 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.840 In your book, the woman in the third person meets 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.960 who Sometimes I'm myself. Sometimes I'm not. I'm really quite 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.800 crazy though. It's a young girl who goes to the 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.200 Yale Drama School. She falls in love with a guy. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.119 She goes home to his very fancy house in Connecticut 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.879 with initials on the thing and Gilbert Stewart pictures and 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.080 all that. He goes to Harvard. They meet at a 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.399 law school moot court thing, and um, the mother says 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.480 to her, aren't there any interesting Jewish men in the 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:02.320 law school? And you never see him again? That's heartbreak, 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.440 that's heartbreak. You liked him, care about him, I loved him. 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:12.800 How long were you with him? Semester a year of 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:14.800 you know, sort of make believe in thinking that life 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.560 made sense. Semester is a big chapter of your life 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.520 when you're young, big chapter of your life, especially when 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.960 you've never really been in love before. You don't get 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.920 over that. You don't get over that hurt. It takes 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.280 a long, long, long What did you fall in love with? 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:36.040 About Sydney? Comfort? Kindness and good partner, good partner friendship, intelligence. 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.320 But I'm not sure he could have ever broken my heart. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.639 I think you break your heart one time, do you? 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.240 I think if you're someone who becomes other people. Then 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:52.440 you become capable of other stages of a rocket and 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.520 pretty much the same. I'm pretty the same, much the 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.240 same person. So you mean you change. I'm the same 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.080 person I was fifty years ago and just don't coming up. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.719 Sheila Evans talks about being raised by a communist. Sheila 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:11.639 Nevans has nurtured many documentary filmmakers. Joe Burlinger, creator of 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.800 HBO's Paradise Lost, is one of them. His films tell 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.560 a shocking story of justice denied three boys in the 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:24.160 Bible Belt, wrongfully convicted of ritual sexual abuse and murder. 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:28.080 Burlinger said the story haunted him. You know, my first 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.439 kid was born while we were editing this film, and 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.960 I would be sitting, you know, at the editing bay 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:38.960