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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: If you've been moved by a documentary in the past

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Speaker 1: forty years, there's a chance you have Sheila Nevins to thank.

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Speaker 1: As head of HBO documentary Films since nine she's exerted

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Speaker 1: more influence on the medium than perhaps anyone in its history,

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Speaker 1: so much so that The New York Times says filmmakers

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Speaker 1: quote fret about her outsized power, but also worry about

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Speaker 1: what will happen when she's gone. Sheila Nevins has overseen

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Speaker 1: the production of literally hundreds of documentaries, which have won

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Speaker 1: dozens of Oscars, and she's credited or blamed for being

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Speaker 1: one of the creators of reality television through nineties hits

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Speaker 1: like Real Sex and Taxi Cab Confessions. Whether they're shot

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Speaker 1: in a war zone or the back of a taxi,

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Speaker 1: Sheila nevins productions are powerful, brazen, and unflinchingly honest. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to telling her own story, truth gets trickier.

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Speaker 1: Her new book, You Don't Look Your Age and Other

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Speaker 1: Fairy Tales blends fiction and reality. It's not a bio,

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Speaker 1: as someone said to me, it's a sly memoir. Who

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Speaker 1: counsel do you want? How to write the book? Who? Nobody?

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Speaker 1: Nobody nobody? You knew instinctively to do this this way.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what's right. I knew when to hide,

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Speaker 1: and I knew when to over here, and I knew

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Speaker 1: the names of the characters without ever some of them

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Speaker 1: are Sheila, and some of them are Priscilla or Melissa.

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Speaker 1: And I was going to do that in my book,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't maybe nicer than me, more honest, I

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Speaker 1: just felt that when I gave the character name, I

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Speaker 1: protected a lot of people, or when I overheard it,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't in it, and then I could write more

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Speaker 1: freely about the truth of it. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: I could have written certain things if it had been me.

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Speaker 1: In her book, Nevin's uses a few characters to paint

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Speaker 1: a portrait of the male dominated world she navigated. Only

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Speaker 1: one of those characters is named Sheila Nevans, but they're

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Speaker 1: all strong, smart women who fight and sleep their way

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Speaker 1: to the top. In a way, the sexual politics of

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Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies is a sideshow. Sheila nevans true

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Speaker 1: passion is to immerse herself in the lives of her subjects,

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Speaker 1: and like many passions, this one makes you suffer. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think if you're a surgeon, the person is anesthetized

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Speaker 1: when you're cutting out their heart, but when you're making

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Speaker 1: a documentary, the person is alive and kicking and they

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Speaker 1: stay with you. Um, you know, I can't explain it.

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Speaker 1: When you go to sleep at night, they they interrupt

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Speaker 1: counting sheep. You know, you see, you see sadness all

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Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of suffering in this world.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who have no way out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have a way out, We have a

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Speaker 1: way out, more options, we have more options, and without empathy,

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Speaker 1: there's no humanity. And I think docus are the last

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Speaker 1: resort for effective if that's the right use of the

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Speaker 1: word feeling for someone you didn't know. That's a great

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Speaker 1: thing about a document You turn it on, it's in

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Speaker 1: your living room. Okay, you didn't invite it. You thought

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Speaker 1: i'll try it, and then suddenly you're crying for someone

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Speaker 1: you never knew before, and they're not. It's not an

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Speaker 1: actor playing apart. It's not something that was scripted. It's

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Speaker 1: another human being trying to live in this country or

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Speaker 1: another country. And it stays with you. It's very difficult.

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Speaker 1: I mean you really, you really agonize. I agonize. I'm

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Speaker 1: not happy. Just squoke into that closet full of Emmys

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Speaker 1: and oscars. You have them, make you happy that you

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Speaker 1: should fall on your foot, and their doorstoppers for most

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Speaker 1: couple of I don't have them. But pick one if

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Speaker 1: you can, and tell us a bit about one that

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Speaker 1: really really just crushed you. What was the one that

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Speaker 1: was an extraordinarily difficult experience for you to bring that

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Speaker 1: film to the public. Maybe the one about even though

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Speaker 1: it was by far not the best documentary on HBO.

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Speaker 1: But because I had been there twenty five years before,

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Speaker 1: I was willing to come out as a parent of

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Speaker 1: a child who had Tourette's and my son David, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that with his permission, I was

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Speaker 1: able to write about it my book. But mainly I

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Speaker 1: was able to make a film for schools so that

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Speaker 1: kids that had Turets would not be bullied because it was, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're a fat you were bullied, If

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Speaker 1: you studded, you were bullied. But if you had Tourette's,

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Speaker 1: nobody knew what you had. They thought you were dopey,

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Speaker 1: they push you, they'd imitate you. This one was tough

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Speaker 1: because I had to go to my bosses and say,

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Speaker 1: I want to make this film about Turette's doesn't affect everybody.

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Speaker 1: I want to do it for my kid. And this

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Speaker 1: is a big place called HBO, and they said do it.

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Speaker 1: You've earned it, and I did it. Now for people

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Speaker 1: who don't understand Tourette's beyond you know, the outbursts, the

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Speaker 1: vocal outbursts and so forth, when did you when do

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Speaker 1: you first become aware of a child having that? At

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Speaker 1: what ages? And exhibit itself? Well, the vocal outbursts are

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Speaker 1: less than five percent, So the fact that that's called copperalia,

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Speaker 1: and um, that means that you yell four letter words?

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Speaker 1: Can I say them on this show? I think our

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Speaker 1: answers if you're here, they know, okay. So the kid

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Speaker 1: who yells funck shit, fuck you, fuck you in your

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Speaker 1: ask your motherfuck that is less than five percent, But

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Speaker 1: the media has it's the most it. First of all,

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Speaker 1: it gave the media chance to use the words and

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Speaker 1: bleep them and make it exciting. And secondly, it was

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Speaker 1: unfair to the kids. But people like Robin Williams. There's

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Speaker 1: also a very interesting part of Turetts, which is called

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Speaker 1: eiliad that yes, where imitative behavior is part of the affliction.

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Speaker 1: So in other words, you go to a movie, you

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Speaker 1: come back. The kid does the whole almost the whole movie,

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Speaker 1: and does the actual sounds of the voices of the

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Speaker 1: different people. But the film is difficult film. It was

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Speaker 1: very painful because, for one, I had to tell David

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Speaker 1: we were going to do it too. Um. He had

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Speaker 1: to be willing to come out as a kid who

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Speaker 1: had to read. We both agreed that it was a

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Speaker 1: necessary film. It wasn't great, but it was useful. You

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Speaker 1: know that there are different kinds of document What about

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Speaker 1: a filmmaker, meaning you have people coming in, they all,

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Speaker 1: you know, many of them want something from you, They

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Speaker 1: want you to help. But I cast I cast the

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Speaker 1: films the way you would cast a movie, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I try to find filmmakers who have a passion

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Speaker 1: for a subject, and then I try to put them

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Speaker 1: together with that subject. So if it's me a maximum

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Speaker 1: copa about abuses, let's say in the Catholic church, I'll

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Speaker 1: find someone who is a renegade Catholic to be able

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Speaker 1: to go after it both with the passion of being

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Speaker 1: a kid who's brought up that way and at the

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Speaker 1: same time someone who's able to look at it with

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Speaker 1: with the right amount of subjective involvement. And in that

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Speaker 1: case it turned out to be Alex Gibney. But it's

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Speaker 1: very different. I mean, Alexander Pelosi is doing a film

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Speaker 1: for us now on everybody says, let's do an anti

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Speaker 1: Trump film. Okay, I must get five pictures a day

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Speaker 1: about let's do this, Let's do who voted, Let's do

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Speaker 1: the Democrats who voted, Let's do the women the college

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Speaker 1: graduated every day, there's something. And so it occurred to

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Speaker 1: us that maybe what we should do is go back

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Speaker 1: to the founding fathers. Maybe we should go back to

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Speaker 1: the dream of what democracy was. And so this film

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Speaker 1: is about the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence in the

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Speaker 1: Bill of Rights. And I watched it last night, pretty late,

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Speaker 1: and I found myself getting weepy over the dream, you know,

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Speaker 1: not laughing at it, but weepy over the original, into

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Speaker 1: the beauty of it, the beauty of being free from

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Speaker 1: the king. And in the descriptions of breaking away from

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Speaker 1: the king, it was as if it was on you know,

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Speaker 1: CNN that night the king had just transmigrated into somebody else,

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Speaker 1: and it was terrifying and also illuminating about the prophetic

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Speaker 1: vision of the founding fathers. It's really extraordinarily interesting and

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you know complex, but you know,

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Speaker 1: this whole country was founded on getting away from from

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Speaker 1: a dictatorship. So who's someone and I'm being euphemistic here

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Speaker 1: when you have the agenda in the morning and you

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Speaker 1: come into the office and you see this name is

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Speaker 1: coming in to see you, and you got really excited.

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Speaker 1: Who's a filmmaker? You thought, oh God, he's coming in today,

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Speaker 1: or she's coming in today. Who's someone you just loved

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Speaker 1: working with. I love working with John Albert because he's fearless,

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Speaker 1: because we send him to Baghdad, to the Green Zone

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Speaker 1: and um just to look at wounded gies. And he

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Speaker 1: called me up and he said, there's a real story

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Speaker 1: here of the camaraderie of the wounded to the wounded.

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Speaker 1: Can I stay? And I was very moved by it

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Speaker 1: because I felt that I had earned the right to say,

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Speaker 1: without checking through the hierarchy, stay there, just stay there

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Speaker 1: and tell his story. And you did, and we did

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Speaker 1: and we were able to stay there. It's called Baghdaddy

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Speaker 1: Are and it turned out to be about a hospital

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Speaker 1: and in the process there was a young marine who

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Speaker 1: is dying. And he dies in the process of the

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Speaker 1: film and we film it and um he was a

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Speaker 1: marine and the Army, I guess you called. The army

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Speaker 1: said that we could use the footage provided the mother

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Speaker 1: would see the film. We called her. Turns out she

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Speaker 1: was an emergency room nurse and she said, may I

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Speaker 1: see this film. You know, at this point I'm not

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Speaker 1: intimidated by much, but I was intimidated by this woman

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Speaker 1: watching the death of her child. Paula came in to

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Speaker 1: HBO and she came with her husband and she said,

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Speaker 1: may I see it alone? And we put it on

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Speaker 1: and I kissed her. I didn't even know her, and

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Speaker 1: I shut the door and we played it and she

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Speaker 1: watched her son die. She came out and she said,

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Speaker 1: come here, and I thought, oh my god, what did

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Speaker 1: I do? What did I do just for this great scene?

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Speaker 1: I'm such a funk up. She came in, she said,

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Speaker 1: my son got the same care there that he would

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Speaker 1: have gotten in a hospital in New York City. There

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Speaker 1: was a priest Overraymo's cathol and he said a prayer

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Speaker 1: and she said, do me one favorite, sweetheart, just cover

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Speaker 1: his face. I don't want his friends to see him go.

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Speaker 1: And she became the associate producer of the next film

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Speaker 1: because a year later I called her. This is the

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Speaker 1: thing when something stays with you, because all you can

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Speaker 1: think of is what if it was my son? And

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Speaker 1: a year later I called her up and I said, Paula,

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Speaker 1: how are you. She said, I'm with Robert. Robert was

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Speaker 1: the name of her son. So I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think she was in church. What do I I

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Speaker 1: didn't know her that well. And she was in Arlington.

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Speaker 1: She was in Section sixty of Arlington where the wounded

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Speaker 1: that didn't make it, you know, the young men and

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Speaker 1: women who died um and if Afghanistan and Iraq were buried.

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Speaker 1: It's a special section. And I said, you're with Robert.

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Speaker 1: She said, yes, I'm at Arlington. And I said what

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Speaker 1: are you doing there? She said, I'm talking to Robert.

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Speaker 1: And I said are you alone? She said, Now, there

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Speaker 1: are lots of people here. There are relatives, there are children,

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Speaker 1: there are friends. You know. I called up John Albert

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Speaker 1: and I said, John, I said first. I said, Paula,

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Speaker 1: how long will you be there? She said, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to stay till tomorrow. And I said, would you mind

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Speaker 1: if John came, because she had known him from Bagdaddy

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Speaker 1: Are and John went it hid in a tree and

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Speaker 1: they watched the full house of people coming to be

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Speaker 1: with their lost children. There was a guy there. I

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Speaker 1: think it's one of the best films we ever did.

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Speaker 1: There was a guy there. I'm sorry all you other

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Speaker 1: people who made films, they're good too, but this one

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Speaker 1: really got me. There was a guy there who was

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Speaker 1: the uncle of a dead soldier, and he brought him

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Speaker 1: his favorite drink and he spilled it on the grave.

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Speaker 1: And it was a chilly day in June, and Paula

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Speaker 1: had taken off her coat and put it over Robert's

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Speaker 1: grave so he wouldn't be cold. It was a surreal,

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Speaker 1: amazing experience. And um, you can't drive by Arlington anymore

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Speaker 1: without that resonating in you. They'll tremendous lowsome sorrow. And

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Speaker 1: then there was a kid there who came to put

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Speaker 1: flowers on it. A little, tiny little girl maybe three

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Speaker 1: or four, putting flowers on her daddy's grave because it

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Speaker 1: was her birthday and she wanted to know that she

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Speaker 1: missed him. And then so in the midst of all,

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Speaker 1: there is the drink being poured, the coat on the grave.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't write this. There's no way you could write this.

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Speaker 1: If somebody wrote it, they think it was Schmaltz. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you this, which is maybe some kind of

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Speaker 1: a stereo track. You can um you can try to

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Speaker 1: paint a picture from me what the what the company

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Speaker 1: was like when you started, because when I always joke

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Speaker 1: with people that HBO. When I was first living in

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Speaker 1: New York in the early eighties, HBO would come on

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Speaker 1: and they had that theme song that sounds like an

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Speaker 1: ISRAELI played the same like MTV. They played Billie Idol

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Speaker 1: and Flock of Seagulls all day long. They had the

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Speaker 1: same two fucking videos over and over again. An HBO show,

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Speaker 1: An HBO showed what was that show? Brian ben Ben

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Speaker 1: dream On, Brian ben Ben dream On, the husband of

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Speaker 1: Madaline Stough, the Great Medal and Stow And so in

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Speaker 1: that time, how was it changed, and how was it

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Speaker 1: changed for you as a woman in the business. Since

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Speaker 1: in your time, I'm not sure how much has changed

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Speaker 1: I really argue, I don't think so. I don't really

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Speaker 1: think so. I think I was an anomaly. So I

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Speaker 1: was not a threat because who else was going to

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Speaker 1: work twenty hours a day, have a sick kid, take

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Speaker 1: all the jokes, do the whole thing. I've had nine

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Speaker 1: bosses in thirty five years. It's pretty hard because each

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Speaker 1: one was a magic slate, so anything you've done before

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Speaker 1: was unknown or not necessarily valid to them because I

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Speaker 1: had to re establish themselves. So it was Listen, I'm

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Speaker 1: not complaining. I've had the greatest job in the world,

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Speaker 1: but I was an anomaly. Who what woman wanted to

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Speaker 1: work twenty hours a day? Who wanted to do docues? Anyway?

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Speaker 1: It was an eight hour services So it was tough

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Speaker 1: for you as a woman. What was hard not getting pinched.

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Speaker 1: That's the great advantage to getting older. You're from the neck. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's nick up now, But do I do don't do

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Speaker 1: with that In the early days, maybe okay, I want

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Speaker 1: to keep mind job, Okay, but not even yes. Of

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Speaker 1: course I had to do deal with that. Of course

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Speaker 1: I did, and I dealt with it readily and aggressively

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Speaker 1: and happily because I didn't know any better and I,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've discussed this with Gloria Steinum. It was

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Speaker 1: the only thing I knew. I wanted that job badly.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make something of it. And if it required,

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Speaker 1: you know, a hand on a knee or whatever else,

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Speaker 1: you overlooked. I looked, but then I turned away. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say I overlooked. I felt it deep down, but

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Speaker 1: I you weren't compromise in some in some extreme way.

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Speaker 1: People just took it was the rules of the game.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was the rules of the game. Why

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Speaker 1: would I know it was like shooting a gun. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it, but I need to learn how

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Speaker 1: I knew that was the way I did what I

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Speaker 1: had to do. You didn't want me to not get

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Speaker 1: this job, did you. I'm glad that you were as

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Speaker 1: open minded to the benefit of the documentary, happily slutty,

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Speaker 1: happily so because I didn't know anything else. The job

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Speaker 1: was worth more than my sexual identity. There were no

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Speaker 1: human resources to protect me. There was nothing, and I

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Speaker 1: was pretty you had no exactly, you had no protector, no,

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Speaker 1: no protector, and I wanted to do it and to

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Speaker 1: give it away. Yeah, I just had just gotten married. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at the time, would you go home and like, did

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Speaker 1: your husband know that you were enduring all this groping

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Speaker 1: in those crap? No, because I could brush it off.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've done a lot of shows with hookers,

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Speaker 1: and I've done a lot of stuff. At cat House

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Speaker 1: in Las Vegas. Were the men being taken advantage of

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Speaker 1: all the women? Have you ever seen our Catouse show?

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Speaker 1: They bought a hundred books the cathouse, you see. I

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Speaker 1: don't have anyone else probably giving it out now, the book.

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Speaker 1: When you make films and you get involved, you're giving notes,

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Speaker 1: you're telling them. I'm watching the clip of you from

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Speaker 1: Alexandra's thing where you're saying I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored.

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Speaker 1: And what you were looking for in a film, what

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Speaker 1: you're expecting of a filmmaker of a film. Did you

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Speaker 1: expect the same of yourself when you wrote this book?

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Speaker 1: You did? Okay? Talk about that? Why? Because in a

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Speaker 1: strange way, I wrote the book in a very selfish way,

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Speaker 1: and when I'm in an editing room, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'm particularly selfish. I wrote it because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be the legend of documentaries. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: be a docu diva. What did you want to be?

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a person. Like everybody? Are you

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Speaker 1: in this book? I think so? Would you say that

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Speaker 1: there's some writing here that's the equivalent of the plastic

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Speaker 1: surgery of writing without questions? There's a lot of plastic

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Speaker 1: surgery in this a lot. There's enough. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: said I looked good, so it must be enough. And

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Speaker 1: if the book sells, good for you. If the book

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Speaker 1: doesn't realis as you look. So the plastic surgery in

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Speaker 1: the writing as well part of it, that's only part

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Speaker 1: of it. Why does everybody pick up the plastic surgery?

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Speaker 1: I remember the lawyer from UM McMillan asking me if

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Speaker 1: there was someone named Melissa, Melissa van Holden boss sleeps

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Speaker 1: with her boss. It's the sixties and she can't get

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Speaker 1: ahead any other way. And um he called and he said,

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Speaker 1: do you know anyone named Melissa? And Mr Penny Broth

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Speaker 1: is the name of the boss? Now, who is named

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Speaker 1: Mr Penny Broth? Let's be real, he said, is, but

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Speaker 1: it just came. The name came, Um, Mr Penny Broth,

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Speaker 1: you know, fuck Melissa? And Melissa got a promotion and

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Speaker 1: it was three. It wasn't her fault and that's the

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Speaker 1: way that was. Were the rules of the game? Right? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean they drove me crazy. Is there anyone named

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Speaker 1: Melissa at HBO? I said, I'm sure there are a

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Speaker 1: number of women named Melissa? Here? Is there? Mr Pennybroth?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever worked for Mr? Penny Broth? I said,

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Speaker 1: nobody would have the name Mr Pennybroth. They said, you

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Speaker 1: never know. So then I looked in the you know,

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Speaker 1: I typed it into my iPad. I couldn't find a

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Speaker 1: Penny Broth similar. But I don't know where those names

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Speaker 1: came from. So is it really am I hiding? If

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Speaker 1: there's nobody by that name, then is it there must

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Speaker 1: be me? Right? I don't know the answer, but I

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Speaker 1: mean I don't still don't know. It might not be

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Speaker 1: the bravest riding in the world, but it's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Brave I never would say I was brave. I'm honest

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Speaker 1: about adultery. It's also about I don't care about falling

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Speaker 1: in and out of love. It's also about anti Semitism.

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Speaker 1: It's also about your heart being broken. Can we pick

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Speaker 1: let's stop there. Can we pick one topic? Are you

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Speaker 1: talking about adultery. Who's adultery? Certainly not my own? Okay,

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Speaker 1: not your own. How do I know those eyes of yours?

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Speaker 1: You've got those wonderful eyes, and in the morning they

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Speaker 1: don't I don't want to know what they looking at

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Speaker 1: the more, that's not my business. Is not my business.

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Speaker 1: You've been happily married to Sydney all these years, of course,

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Speaker 1: And did you ever describe what it's like for you

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Speaker 1: to fall in love? Because you're pretty tough broad, You're

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Speaker 1: a pretty no nonsense woman. You're tough, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: in a good way. Would it like to fall in love?

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Speaker 1: Love redefines itself as you get older, when you fell

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Speaker 1: in love with him? What did you fall in love with? Sydney?

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Speaker 1: Or my heartbreak? In my book both take sax to

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Speaker 1: Sydney first. No, my heartbreak first, my heartbreak. This is

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Speaker 1: my show. No, it's my show now, I mean, where

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Speaker 1: would you be without me sitting here? You'll be talking

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Speaker 1: to yourself. Heartbreak happens once, I believe real heartbreak. What happened?

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Speaker 1: You don't repair describe the situation? We'll do what you do.

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Speaker 1: In your book, the woman in the third person meets

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Speaker 1: who Sometimes I'm myself. Sometimes I'm not. I'm really quite

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Speaker 1: crazy though. It's a young girl who goes to the

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Speaker 1: Yale Drama School. She falls in love with a guy.

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Speaker 1: She goes home to his very fancy house in Connecticut

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Speaker 1: with initials on the thing and Gilbert Stewart pictures and

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Speaker 1: all that. He goes to Harvard. They meet at a

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Speaker 1: law school moot court thing, and um, the mother says

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Speaker 1: to her, aren't there any interesting Jewish men in the

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Speaker 1: law school? And you never see him again? That's heartbreak,

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Speaker 1: that's heartbreak. You liked him, care about him, I loved him.

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Speaker 1: How long were you with him? Semester a year of

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of make believe in thinking that life

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Speaker 1: made sense. Semester is a big chapter of your life

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Speaker 1: when you're young, big chapter of your life, especially when

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Speaker 1: you've never really been in love before. You don't get

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Speaker 1: over that. You don't get over that hurt. It takes

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Speaker 1: a long, long, long What did you fall in love with?

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Speaker 1: About Sydney? Comfort? Kindness and good partner, good partner friendship, intelligence.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not sure he could have ever broken my heart.

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Speaker 1: I think you break your heart one time, do you?

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Speaker 1: I think if you're someone who becomes other people. Then

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Speaker 1: you become capable of other stages of a rocket and

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Speaker 1: pretty much the same. I'm pretty the same, much the

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Speaker 1: same person. So you mean you change. I'm the same

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Speaker 1: person I was fifty years ago and just don't coming up.

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Speaker 1: Sheila Evans talks about being raised by a communist. Sheila

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Speaker 1: Nevans has nurtured many documentary filmmakers. Joe Burlinger, creator of

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Speaker 1: HBO's Paradise Lost, is one of them. His films tell

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Speaker 1: a shocking story of justice denied three boys in the

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Speaker 1: Bible Belt, wrongfully convicted of ritual sexual abuse and murder.

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Speaker 1: Burlinger said the story haunted him. You know, my first

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Speaker 1: kid was born while we were editing this film, and

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Speaker 1: I would be sitting, you know, at the editing bay

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Speaker 1: looking at the most horrific autopsy photos and crime scene footage.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would go home at night after having

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Speaker 1: these images like emblazoned on your brain and I would

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Speaker 1: drop the you know, the door of the crib and

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Speaker 1: pick up my new infant, who was just arrived a

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Speaker 1: few months ago. And every hallmark that my child would

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Speaker 1: go through, you know, kindergarten, middle school, high school, I think,

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Speaker 1: my god, these guys are still rotting in prison. I

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Speaker 1: just felt we had a you know, we had a

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Speaker 1: moral obligation to keep telling the story. Listen to the

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Speaker 1: full conversation, and here's the thing, Dot Org. I'm Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to here's the thing. Sheila and Evans.

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Speaker 1: Nearly four decades stewardship of HBO documentaries has helped usher

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Speaker 1: in a golden age for the form. But when she started,

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Speaker 1: the very word documentary could doom a project to obscurity.

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Speaker 1: I think that documents have become hot. What I began

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Speaker 1: in this business, we didn't even want to use the

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Speaker 1: word documentary. When we did promos for films, we would

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Speaker 1: call them docutainment. We invented this lultic word because we're

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Speaker 1: afraid that if we said documentary, people would feel that

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Speaker 1: it was for the elite and that it was about politics,

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Speaker 1: and that it was not going to be about human stories.

423
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: And so we we hid behind this word docutainment. And

424
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: then slowly but surely it took a good years we

425
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: began to say, well, maybe it's not such a dirty word,

426
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 1: and reality programming sort of said real people can be

427
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: interesting in a trivial way. Now, how do we take

428
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: that real people think and bring it back to real

429
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: stories that have heart and soul. So then somehow it

430
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: went docutainment, reality TV. Yeah, documentary, go for it. Say

431
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: that real people, people without celebrity, people who are trying

432
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: to survive in a complicated world, and say it in

433
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: their own words and not either have to have scripted

434
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: or apologize for it, but let it go for itself.

435
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: So if a woman would be living on a minimum wage,

436
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 1: for instance, UM, we would almost cast that woman to

437
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: be someone who could tell that story. I got three kids,

438
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: I'm working in a nursing home. I'm making seven dollars

439
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: an hour. I gotta have three job jobs. My husband

440
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: is on drugs, he's left me. We we felt we

441
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: could tell those stories with real people. We didn't have

442
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: to use narrative, all due respect, but we could. We

443
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: could elevate the common man's story and use the word documentary.

444
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: And I think they became somewhat precious and difficult um

445
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: and and had parody at festivals. Began to have parody

446
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: at festivals with narrative. So suddenly Toronto would have a

447
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: whole section on documentary. Sundance was actually the first but

448
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: docums at that time were hot docs. They had their

449
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: own festivals. They were not part of festivals that had

450
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: actors and famous people, and you know, they were sort

451
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: of an offshoot. I think now docums have gotten parody.

452
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: But is it safe to say, I'd love to hear

453
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: your viewpoint about this that and not that it's a

454
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: seller's market now. But is it tougher for you to

455
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: find what you want? It's so competitive, horrifying. Your job

456
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: is harder than it was. Job is much harder because,

457
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: first of all, of people have monopoly money and I'm

458
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: still playing with real cash, so I really can't play

459
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: the well. Netflix has tons of dollars and they don't. No,

460
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: not for docues. No. Why why is that the company?

461
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: Is the company's mission or what happened? I can't speak

462
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: for the company peon I would say that, um, it's

463
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: not a high priority. Stars rule and series still feel

464
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: themselves as almost like a studio. I think so. I

465
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: think the development of a series is where the money's at.

466
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: It's where the sales are at. Want to shut they're

467
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: chasing that, that's where they're there. They're not there. If

468
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: you took docues off HBO, I think they have a

469
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: million places to go. Ten years ago, if you took

470
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: docums off HBO, you wouldn't have a place to find them.

471
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: So it's tough. It's really tough. Let's talk about benzos.

472
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: You say dependent but not addicted. I know it's complicated.

473
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: Isn't it help us understand that? I'm not sure it's

474
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: that curate, but I know that I have never changed

475
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: the dosage in forty years. It still help you. I

476
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: don't know whether it helps me in the sense that

477
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: I color is working or whether it's a police but

478
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to know because I can't sleep. And

479
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: if I take two oranges, one blue and one white,

480
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 1: I go to sleep. So what then do I want

481
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: to step to clon and do you fear? Because I

482
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 1: was told that that's like that and will beautron are

483
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: like really heavy heavy, and he well, beautron is an

484
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: antidepress and clonopin is a benzone. See. I believe that

485
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: one day they'll discovered that anxious people like myself are

486
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: missing whatever that chemical is. Why should anxiety be different

487
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: than epilepsy or diabetes. I don't really understand it. I

488
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: made peace with it because I don't think I could

489
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: have functioned that it was. I don't think I could

490
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: have talked back. I don't think I could have flown

491
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: as much as I did. I don't think I could

492
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: have kind of stress of your career. I don't think

493
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: I could have done it. Can I tell you about

494
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: my audio book? Um, let's pause for a moment for

495
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: Sheila to tell us about her audio book. Now. The

496
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: reason I'm doing that is because I'm a salesman and

497
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: I'm a hook I'm aware of that to distance myself

498
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: even further from from some of the characters in this book.

499
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: I was writing a poem about Larry Kramer, who I love,

500
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: and Christine Bransky came to my house in the country

501
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: to celebrate Larry's eightieth birthday. And I had never read

502
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: Larry this poem. It wasn't really a whole book yet,

503
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: and so I gave him the poem to read and

504
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: he kissed me, and then Christine sat on the couch

505
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: next to him, and I thought it was a u

506
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: week a moment, I thought I got it. I'm going

507
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: to get well known people to read my book and

508
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: that will distance everything even further. And I said, Christine,

509
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: would you read the Larry Kramer, and she said, of

510
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: course I would. I said, would you read on an audiobook?

511
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: Of course I would. So did you play in the

512
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: usual studio executive game start calling everybody and say, Christine's in?

513
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: Are you in? No? I didn't do that. I sent

514
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: the alleys of the book, and I texted people like

515
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: Alan Alda and Whoopee and Meryl Streep and and I

516
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: would say, never went to an agent. I never went

517
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: to a manager. I just went direct, and absolutely everybody

518
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: pretty much said yes. Meryl Street wrote me a letter.

519
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't even know that. Well, she said, um, you

520
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: wrote a great book. I want to read this story.

521
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: Tell me where and when? Well, I mean, I went

522
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: running up and down the halls of HBOC. But then

523
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: I thought it's a joke. Somebody sent it and that

524
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: was just you know. But sure enough when I called,

525
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: we made an appointment. She came in. It was pouring,

526
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: no entourage. Read the story. It was about my mother.

527
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: When she said my mother's voice, I heard my mother.

528
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, your childhood and how you grew up.

529
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: We were a movie. No. I wasn't allowed to watch television, No, no, no.

530
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: My mother was a communist. She had gone to school

531
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: with Ethel Rosenberg, and so when Ethel Rosenberg was assassinated

532
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: or whatever the word is, in the electric chair, I

533
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: thought any minute they were coming to take my mother.

534
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: My best friend was Billy and his father was the

535
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: editor of the Daily Worker. And I came home one day,

536
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: Second Avenue in sixth Street. My father was a postman

537
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: on the lower side. Yeah, I'm a poor girl. See

538
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: that's why I wrote the book. Because everybody thought I

539
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: went to Barnard. I went to Yale, I went to

540
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: performing arts. Ritzie, titsy, titsy TITSI doorman. You claud your

541
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: way to the top. You're the Jewish Eve Harrington. Wow. No,

542
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: I was very good. I didn't call my way. I

543
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: was fucking good. And I'm still good. I'm really smart,

544
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: and I'm smart about what people might watch, and I'm

545
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: smart about self criticism. And I'm happy to be wrong

546
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: as long as i'm right. So how did you end

547
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: up in this business? What did your father do for

548
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: a living? My thought it was a postman in a bookie?

549
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: How did you end up in this business with? No?

550
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: Because you went you went to drama school. No, but

551
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: I made you in directing it. Yeah, because I knew

552
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: I was not a good actress. I thought that I

553
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: would and I was a terrible to answer. I thought

554
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: that I would have been good at storytelling and knowing

555
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: when it was wrong and when it was right. I

556
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: had a great teacher at Yale who we also had

557
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: to take acting classes, and she said to me, you

558
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: had the perfect director because you're always watching. And I thought,

559
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: that's true. I'm always I'm always looking in, I'm always watching.

560
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: Taxicab Confessions, which we did, was an example of a

561
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: show that came from observations like I found that when

562
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: I was in a taxi, I knew I'd never see

563
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: that person again. I could tell them things I wouldn't

564
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: tell anybody else. I thought, if I'm doing this, other

565
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: people can be doing this. Why don't we do Taxicab

566
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: Confessions and take the car out at five and go

567
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: through the night. And then we did it. And they

568
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: were great stories, great secret stories that people tell, and

569
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: then we would ask them to sign a release and

570
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: met very often they didn't. Some of the best stories

571
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: are hidden in the lock and key. Now here's the

572
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: last thing I want to say to you. He went

573
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: to Barnard and you went to Yale, and you've had

574
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: this great career and you've won all these awards and

575
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: your name is synonymous with the highest level of documentary filmmaking.

576
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: Them the last you deliver my memorial service, I'm available.

577
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: You have to get paid now. I appreciate your career,

578
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: that's why you're here. Okay, But last, but not least,

579
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: there's something about you. There's this woman thing about you.

580
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: You go when you make this effort in the the

581
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: beautification and the kind of corrections and all this other stuff,

582
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: and you look phenomenal, by the way, But I just

583
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: want to say, there's a thing about you. You know,

584
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: you bathe in this world of the stark and the reel.

585
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: But there's a part of me that I think you

586
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: want to be in love again. I see you in

587
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: a bathrobe on a terrace in Paris and you're just

588
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: having the longest kiss in the world. Is that what

589
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: you want? Is you do you want to fall already

590
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: that I don't really want to be in a bathrobe

591
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: on a terrorist and it's too good to get out

592
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: my second you don't know you don't want to be

593
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: in love again and have a passion, no romance, No

594
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: you don't. I want to make the best documentary in

595
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: the world. That's it. That's it, that's it, that's all

596
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: I want. I just offered romance. You would rather that

597
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: I want to make a document wins a prize. We're

598
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: going to stop right there, because that's why you're the greatest.

599
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: I don't want that to make I want Alexander's docu

600
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: to win awards. I wanted to make people know about

601
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: the beginning of the founding fathers and the dream of

602
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: the country. That's what I want to do. I mean,

603
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: I'm not square and stupid and idealistic more than anything,

604
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: more than anything, what do I want? What do you

605
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: want us to make great movies? Yeah? I think that's true.

606
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: It makes me almost want to cry when you say that,

607
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: because isn't that sad? No, and I should want something

608
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: else or a piece of something. I don't want anything.

609
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: I don't even go I don't even like. I mean,

610
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: they ask anyone, I don't want anything. You're clear, I'm

611
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: very clear. What's the best thing in this life that

612
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: as we get older than to be clear? I said

613
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 1: when I looked at my wife and as people say

614
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: to me, what do you want to go? I want

615
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: to have kids, and I want to have a family.

616
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: And I'm fifty nine years old and I have three kids,

617
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: three and older than you. Who gives a funk about

618
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: how old you want? If a flower pot falls on

619
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: your head and your twelve, it's over anyway. I mean,

620
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's today, it's now, it's this moment, and

621
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: it's the doc you you make. Fair enough, the work

622
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: is all Sheila Nevans wants to be remembered for. Asked

623
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: what she'd like carved on her tombstone, she responded, quote,

624
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: she should have gone on forever. I'm Alec Baldwin and

625
00:33:39,720 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: you're listening to here's the thing ewo