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Speaker 1: April twenty ninth, nineteen eighty nine, was prom night in

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Speaker 1: the small town of lake Ville, Indiana, and although high

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Speaker 1: school senior Jeff Pelly had been grounded, two of his

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Speaker 1: sisters and his girlfriend believed that his father's resolved had softened,

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Speaker 1: allowing Jeff to attend. But on the morning after the prom,

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Speaker 1: his father, stepmother, and two stepsisters were found fatally shot

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Speaker 1: in their own home. Then the state ignored the autopsy

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Speaker 1: findings his girlfriend, his sisters, and several other witnesses, along

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Speaker 1: with a compelling alternate suspect theory to argue that Jeff

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Speaker 1: had killed them simply to gain access to this teenage

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Speaker 1: right of passage. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this and all the

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Speaker 1: LoVa for Good podcasts one week early and ed free

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Speaker 1: by subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we have the story

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Speaker 1: of a teenager named Jeff Pelly who was accused of

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Speaker 1: killing his father, his stepmother, and two stepsisters in Lakeville,

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Speaker 1: Indiana in nineteen eighty nine. Unfortunately, Jeff was not available

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Speaker 1: to record, but this story needs to be told. So

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Speaker 1: to help us do that, we have one of my

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Speaker 1: absolute favorite investigative journalists, Delia Diambra, who dedicated an entire

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Speaker 1: season of her hit podcast Counterclock to this case. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be linked in the episode description. So Delia,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: And with her we have Jeff's post conviction attorney, the

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Speaker 1: president of the Indiana Innisis Project, Fran Watson.

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Speaker 3: Fran welcome, Well, thank you for Carrie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't shake this one. So this story acquires

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of background. So let's go back and

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Speaker 1: start where it all started. In Cape Coral, Florida.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy Bob Pelly met his first wife, Ava

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Speaker 2: Joy Armstrong and they got married and then their first child,

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Speaker 2: Robert Jeffrey Pelly. He's born in nineteen seventy one, so

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Speaker 2: Carrie is his dad's name, but goes by Jeff and

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Speaker 2: then they have their daughter, Jackie. They have a large

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Speaker 2: community at the Nazarene Church. Bob was working for a

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Speaker 2: bank called Landmark Bank as a data analyst. They're living

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Speaker 2: happily in Cape Coral, Florida, which at that time was

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Speaker 2: sort of underdeveloped as compared to the city that it

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Speaker 2: is now, But back then it was sort of wild

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Speaker 2: West in terms of real estate development, and I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of people from other states and even other

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Speaker 2: countries saw that as an opportune time to capitalize on

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Speaker 2: Florida's growth.

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Speaker 1: It's also rumored that there were organized criminal interests in

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Speaker 1: the area, either coming in from Miami or even as

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Speaker 1: far away as Detroit, and Landmark Bank was processing a

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Speaker 1: lot of the land deals being made as Cape Coral developed.

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Speaker 1: Two of the players in the market were a developer

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Speaker 1: from Michigan named Derek Dawson, as well as another Nazarene

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Speaker 1: parishioner named Phil Holly.

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Speaker 2: The Holly family attended the Nazarene church in Fort Myers

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Speaker 2: that the Pelly family also attended. The families knew one

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Speaker 2: another and spent time together.

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Speaker 3: Mister Holly called mister Pelly his best friend.

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Speaker 2: And yes, Phil Holly had several businesses, construction businesses, they

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Speaker 2: debt collection business some of which were later alleged to

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Speaker 2: be fraudulent businesses, and Phil had banking interests at Landmark Bank. Also,

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Speaker 2: Bob had done it work for Phil Holly.

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Speaker 3: There isn't any doubt that mister Pelly knew a lot

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Speaker 3: about mister Holly's business, and I don't think there's any

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Speaker 3: doubt that the Hollys were up to criminal activity.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward to nineteen eighty five, Joy Pelly had been

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Speaker 1: diagnosed with cancer and after fighting bravely, she tragically lost

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Speaker 1: her battle. And later on that year, Bob met a

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Speaker 1: widow named Dawn who had three daughters of her own, Jesse, Jannell,

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Speaker 1: and Joe Lene, and they soon married. And to add

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Speaker 1: to this tumultuous situation, Bob abruptly uprooted this newly blended

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Speaker 1: family from a comfortable life in Cape Coral and moved

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Speaker 1: to a very different situation in Lakeville, Indiana. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty six.

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Speaker 2: Bob Pelly was incredibly secretive and abrupt about the family's

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Speaker 2: move to Indiana. Jackie her words were, he showed up

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and said there was

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Speaker 2: money missing from the bank, and within either the next

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Speaker 2: day or the day after that, the family was gone

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Speaker 2: from Cape Coral and moved to Lakeville.

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Speaker 1: Later on, the pastor at Nazarene Church confirmed that Bob

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Speaker 1: was tormented by fraud that he'd uncovered at landmark, and

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Speaker 1: to add another twist, he didn't pick up another banking

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Speaker 1: or it job. He actually became a pastor at the

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Speaker 1: Olive Branch and I Brethren Church on Osborne Road in Lakeville, Indiana,

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Speaker 1: and the Pellys live next door in a ranch style

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Speaker 1: home owned by the church called the Parsonage. The kids

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Speaker 1: had to go to new schools, of course, and make

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Speaker 1: all new friends, all while still acclimating to new step

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Speaker 1: parents and siblings. So you know, they were in family

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Speaker 1: therapy and in April nineteen eighty eight, Jeff threatened to

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Speaker 1: commit suicide.

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Speaker 2: In the spring of eighty eight, when Jeff makes this

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Speaker 2: declaration that he was going to take his own life,

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Speaker 2: Bob gets all the guns out of the home. Thomas Kebb,

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Speaker 2: who's an individual who claimed to have received firearms from

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Speaker 2: Bob Pelly. Bob Pelly came to him and it's like, here,

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Speaker 2: take him out of our house.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, back in Cape Coral, the real estate developer from Michigan,

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Speaker 1: Eric Dawson, had gone deep into debt with the Hollys

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Speaker 1: and soon received cash infusions from their business on other

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Speaker 1: development deals. By late nineteen eighty eight, Dawson's body was

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Speaker 1: discovered in a Florida wildlife preserve.

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Speaker 2: Eric Dawson was shot execution style and then sunk into

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Speaker 2: a makeshift concrete grave in the middle of a cypress clearing.

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Speaker 2: With the Florida conditions the way they are, that concrete

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Speaker 2: sort of broke open and allows, unfortunately odors of decomposition

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Speaker 2: to escape, and then the wildlife, a lot of wild

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Speaker 2: hogs and boars and snakes came in and began to scavenge,

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Speaker 2: and that ultimately allowed his clothing and things to come

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Speaker 2: out of that and was discovered.

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Speaker 1: Eric Dawson had been shot with a twenty two caliber pistol. Curiously,

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Speaker 1: Bob Paley had given Thomas keb a twenty two caliber

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Speaker 1: pistol which came in and out of his possession around

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Speaker 1: the time of Eric Dawson's murder.

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Speaker 2: It's back in the home by January of nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: nine and then subsequently disappears again before the April twenty ninth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine massacre in the home. So this twenty

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Speaker 2: two pistol, why was it going in and out of

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Speaker 2: the home? Where was it? And then when you look

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Speaker 2: at the case in late nineteen eighty eight in Florida,

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Speaker 2: with Eric Dawson. He was murdered definitively with a twenty two.

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Speaker 1: The Halies were suspected of that murder and police found

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Speaker 1: Landis that Dawson had signed over to the Hallies the

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Speaker 1: day before his disappearance.

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Speaker 3: If you look at what's happening in Florida the month

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Speaker 3: of Pelley family is killed, that's when they serve the

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Speaker 3: search warrants, and that's where they find clear evidence that

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Speaker 3: ultimately convicts the Hallies forging those documents. They're never able

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Speaker 3: to charge the Hallies or anyone with the murder of

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Speaker 3: the business partner, but they were able to charge and

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Speaker 3: convict the Hollies of the fraud tied to taking the asset.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Bob was in Lakeville and he was very much

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Speaker 1: aware of the danger. Just according to a person named

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Speaker 1: Tony Beeeler who was hired to take photographs for a

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Speaker 1: church directory, Bob made her swear on a Bible and

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Speaker 1: explained why he didn't want his picture taken and made public.

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Speaker 2: He expressed to her there are people from my past

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Speaker 2: in Florida that we'll find us and harm us. And

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Speaker 2: he was very resistant to their identities being out there.

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Speaker 2: And then they're all massacred like what.

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Speaker 1: Curiously, the Pellies were in touch with the Hawlies, who

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Speaker 1: knew that they'd moved to Lakeville, but Bob was certainly

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Speaker 1: afraid of someone. Meanwhile, in Lakeville, the police were investigating

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Speaker 1: a string of petty thefts, and Bob discovered that his son,

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Speaker 1: Jeff and his friends the Herzogs, were involved, So he

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Speaker 1: took away Jeff's Mustang and forbade him from attending the

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Speaker 1: prom or any after prime activities, including a day trip

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Speaker 1: the next day to Six Flags Raided America.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely part of the story is that mister Pelly

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Speaker 3: had told many people that Jeff was grounded from the prom,

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Speaker 3: and the fact we always cite in responses, Well, if

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Speaker 3: Jeff wasn't going to the prom, then how did Jackie

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Speaker 3: know to tell the police he'd be at Great America

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Speaker 3: this pre date cell phone. She'd not been home since

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Speaker 3: Friday nine. So if Jeff wasn't going to the prom,

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Speaker 3: how does Jackie think he's at Great America?

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Speaker 1: According to those closest to the situation, Jeff's sisters Jackie

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Speaker 1: and Jesse, and Jeff's girlfriend Darla, it appears that Bob

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Speaker 1: had softened his result as early as Friday, which was

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Speaker 1: the night before the prompt. Additionally, the Pellies had written

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Speaker 1: checks the week prior to cover Jeff's tuxedo and other

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Speaker 1: prom fees. Yet the state still contended that this punishment,

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Speaker 1: along with access to his mustang, was the motivation for

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Speaker 1: him to commit a quadruple homicide against his own family.

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Speaker 1: That happened sometime after five pm on April twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. So let's back up to earlier that

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Speaker 1: day so we can establish the timeline.

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Speaker 3: He worked at McDonald's that Saturday of the prom, starting

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Speaker 3: at five am, and then when his father picked him up,

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Speaker 3: the dad stopped at the gun store. Now, the state's

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Speaker 3: theory was the dad stopped at the gun store because

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Speaker 3: he was afraid of his son.

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Speaker 1: But if you know the context about Florida, this stop

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Speaker 1: makes more sense. According to the store, Bob inquired about

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Speaker 1: a gun for Dawn, but he didn't purchase anything.

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Speaker 3: Mister Pelly's kicked his son up at noon brought him home.

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Speaker 3: They all had lunch together and watch baseball. People came

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Speaker 3: over to show their prom dresses.

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Speaker 2: There was a girl named Kim and her date David.

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Speaker 2: A boy named Matt Miller came over at that same time,

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Speaker 2: so they're all there between four thirty and five o'clock,

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Speaker 2: maybe five after five at the most.

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Speaker 3: So the state's theory is that after this dear friend

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Speaker 3: and church people leave, he just goes into a rage

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Speaker 3: and kills everyone and then goes to the prom and

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Speaker 3: acts normal.

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Speaker 1: And according to the dear friend and church people, Jeff

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Speaker 1: had been wearing blue jeans and potentially a pink pin

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Speaker 1: striped shirt. And the promgoers left around five pm to

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Speaker 1: pick up Matt Miller's date.

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Speaker 2: Matt Miller forgets his corsage for his date, so he

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Speaker 2: goes back home. And as Matt is passing back on

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Speaker 2: Osborne Road headed to go meet Kim and David at

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Speaker 2: his date's house, he passes the parsonage and sees Jeff's

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Speaker 2: Mustang still park there. This is at right around five

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Speaker 2: point fifteen. And then there's I think one of Jeff's

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Speaker 2: friends that was mushroom hunting in the area. Here's Jeff's car,

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Speaker 2: the noticeable engine roar down Osborne Road a little after

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Speaker 2: five point fifteen. And then we have Dennis Nico Dimes,

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Speaker 2: who is the clerk at the Mco gas station, who

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Speaker 2: has an interaction with Jeff who says it's five p

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Speaker 2: seventeen when Jeff is at that gas station.

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Speaker 1: From then on, Jeff is accounted for wearing a black

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Speaker 1: Hawaiian shirt and blue jeans, followed by his tuxedo. So,

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Speaker 1: according to the state, Jeff committed this quadruple homicide between

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Speaker 1: five and five sixteen pm. But there's the specter of

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Speaker 1: this black pickup truck, which wasn't mentioned by the promgoers

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Speaker 1: either while they were there as they left, or by

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Speaker 1: Matt Miller as he drove by, but rather by a

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Speaker 1: woman named Lois Stansbury who saw Bob Pelley after the

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Speaker 1: prom goers left and potentially after five sixteen PM.

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Speaker 3: She's probably part of the reason Jeff wasn't charged in

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Speaker 3: eighty nine. She was a local, good standing citizen who

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Speaker 3: said she'd been to kmart. She came back up the

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Speaker 3: road to visit her father and saw mister Pelley talking

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Speaker 3: to someone in a black truck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, her purchase at kmart was documented and on her receipt.

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Speaker 2: I want to say like four thirty to four forty,

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Speaker 2: and where that kmart was located the Osborne Road. I

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Speaker 2: think we drove it and it was like maybe ten

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Speaker 2: or twelve minutes, so based on her movements and that receipt,

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Speaker 2: and like one other pit stop she made on the way,

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Speaker 2: she's got to be seeing him to be generous a

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Speaker 2: little after five to five twenty.

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Speaker 3: And according to the witness, mister Pelly had a shovel

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Speaker 3: in his hand, and he looked a bit circumspect, in

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Speaker 3: other words, he wasn't his normal waving self.

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Speaker 2: And when she came forward to law enforcement a week

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Speaker 2: or so after the crime, she provides that receipt to them,

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Speaker 2: saying like, Hey, here's how I know when I saw

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Speaker 2: Bob from five to five twenty. So if Bob's alive

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Speaker 2: standing in his driveway talking, is someone in a black

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Speaker 2: pickup truck, He's not getting murdered by his teenage son

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Speaker 2: in the home.

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Speaker 1: Mysteriously, that receipt later went missing, and the state contends

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Speaker 1: that it must have been earlier and the prom goers

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Speaker 1: just missed it somehow. Now after this sighting, we aren't

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Speaker 1: sure what happened with the Pellies. At five point thirty,

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Speaker 1: Bob was expected at the home of another prom goer, Crystal,

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Speaker 1: Easter Day, but when he didn't show up, she and

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Speaker 1: her date came over to the parsonage between five pointy

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Speaker 1: five and six pm, and they found the Pelly station

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Speaker 1: wagon in the driveway and the curtains drawn, and there

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Speaker 1: was no response when they knocked on the door.

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Speaker 3: She made later statements that the doors were locked in

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Speaker 3: her earliest statements, there's nothing that suggests she tried to

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Speaker 3: determine whether they were locked or not. But that was

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Speaker 3: a strong fact the state used because their claim was

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Speaker 3: that the Pelly family had already been slain inside that home.

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Speaker 2: Everything that happened after Jeff is accounted for by witnesses.

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Speaker 2: You don't know what's then happening with Bob and Don

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Speaker 2: and the girls. They're either already deceased or they're potentially

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Speaker 2: still at home for whatever reason, didn't fulfill their plans

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Speaker 2: for the night. Were they taken somewhere and then brought

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Speaker 2: back to the home. That's obviously a possibility, a little

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Speaker 2: bit more involved, because you would think that someone would

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Speaker 2: have seen that were they being held at their home

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Speaker 2: that evening, potentially through the early morning hours.

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Speaker 3: I think mister Pelly got in that black truck myself.

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Speaker 3: If mister Pelly's got some inklingess is going on. What

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Speaker 3: if mister Pelly left in the black truck and said

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Speaker 3: to the family, prom goings over. Lock the house, don't

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Speaker 3: answer the door.

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Speaker 1: No one saw anyone coming or going for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the night, although there's mention of a limousine with

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Speaker 1: Florida plates nearby. Additionally, the next door neighbor, Sheila Saunders,

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Speaker 1: noted that the Pelly's basement light was on at nine

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Speaker 1: to fifteen PM and two am, but when Bob didn't

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Speaker 1: show up for Sunday service and the scene was discovered,

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Speaker 1: it was noted that the basement light was off.

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Speaker 2: So Sunday morning, April thirtieth, around nine fifteen, already in

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Speaker 2: the morning, a man named Dave Hathaway, who's sort of

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Speaker 2: like an elder at the church, realized that Bob wasn't

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Speaker 2: in the sanctuary. His stepdaughters weren't running around anywhere. Don

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Speaker 2: was not there, and so Dave eventually walks over he

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Speaker 2: needs a spare key. Dave walks in through the garage,

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Speaker 2: gets a couple steps in to go let the other

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Speaker 2: elder in, and before he even gets there, he kind

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Speaker 2: of looks over into this hallway that leads into the

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Speaker 2: bedrooms and sees what he recognizes as Bob Pelly's kind

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Speaker 2: of thicker glasses on the carpet, some blood, realizes something

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Speaker 2: is very wrong, and then obviously, law enforcement is called.

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Speaker 1: Dave Hathaway initially mentioned that the blood was still wet,

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Speaker 1: but he later recalled it differently and said that the

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Speaker 1: blood was dry. Now clarity on that would have been

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Speaker 1: very helpful when establishing the timeline. But let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the scene.

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Speaker 2: I think the thought always was initially by law enforcement,

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Speaker 2: that Bob Pelly died first in the hall way upstairs,

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Speaker 2: and then the killer or killers completed the crime downstairs

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Speaker 2: with Dawn and the girls unfortunately with their bodies sort

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Speaker 2: of positioned on or next to one another, and I

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Speaker 2: think that would indicate that they all died at the

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Speaker 2: same time or in very quick succession.

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Speaker 1: There's also a gun shot in the stairwell heading down

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Speaker 1: into the basement that appears to have been a near miss,

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Speaker 1: which may support that theory of succession. Interestingly, the shooter

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Speaker 1: must have collected the shell casing, so all they found

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Speaker 1: were the spent twenty gage shotgun slugs, and watting, which

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Speaker 1: is either a paper or plastic part of the bullet

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Speaker 1: between the gunpowder and the slug.

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Speaker 2: This watting usually falls or flutters to the floor, and

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Speaker 2: in this case some of it is in the wounds

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Speaker 2: or on the clothing of the victim, which just goes

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Speaker 2: to show how close in proximity the shooter was to them.

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Speaker 2: There is watting discovered from two different types of shotgun

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Speaker 2: shell casings by different manufacturers, which begins to open the

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Speaker 2: door of was there one shooter? Was there two shooters?

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Speaker 2: It just raises a lot of questions, and.

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Speaker 1: Establishing the time of death would have gone a long

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Speaker 1: way to answering them. Unfortunately, the coroner lost that information

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Speaker 1: when he refrigerated the bodies before determining it. But there

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Speaker 1: were some interesting findings at autopsy.

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Speaker 2: We do see popcorn in Bob's stomach. Jackie Pelly always says,

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Speaker 2: like her dad's evening snack before he'd had to preach

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Speaker 2: a message the next day, it was popcorn. So it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: why would he have been eating that in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the afternoon or late afternoon. He didn't really have

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Speaker 2: opportunity to do that because we know he was visiting

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Speaker 2: with parishioners all throughout the afternoon on Saturday, right up

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Speaker 2: until about four o'clock. And then all these kids come

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Speaker 2: over to get their pictures taken. So it's like, did

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Speaker 2: they eat those things either right up until they were

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Speaker 2: killed or later that night? But how could they have

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Speaker 2: eaten them if they were already dead? And so it

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Speaker 2: really begins to kind of throw off the timeline.

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Speaker 1: Episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD Now.

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Speaker 1: convicted receive the care they need to heal and reintegrate

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Speaker 1: erase PTSD now dot org for more information and ways

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Speaker 1: to get involved.

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Speaker 2: When they first began processing the scene, there was a

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Speaker 2: Indiana State trooper who came to the scene and was

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Speaker 2: familiar with Jeff and Bob Pelly because he was in

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Speaker 2: a community club with Bob and had gotten to know Bob,

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Speaker 2: and Bob had opened up to him a little bit

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Speaker 2: about his sort of parental struggles with Jeff and some

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Speaker 2: thefts and people that Bob didn't like that Jeff was

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Speaker 2: hanging out with, and bad attitude and things like that,

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Speaker 2: the lamenting of a father of a teenage son, and

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Speaker 2: so the state trooper came into the crime scene investigation

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Speaker 2: with that sort of back history.

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Speaker 1: Even though the autopsy findings Lois Stansbury and Sheila Saunders

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Speaker 1: all suggest that the murders happened later on that night,

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Speaker 1: it appears that tunnel vision had already set in and

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Speaker 1: the state turned him into some sort of master criminal

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Speaker 1: with prowess that would be something out of a spy

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Speaker 1: thriller or something.

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Speaker 2: The lack of physical evidence says a lot in this case,

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Speaker 2: because it's not just someone would have had to clean

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Speaker 2: themselves up from the biological material, but they would have

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Speaker 2: had to get all those shell casings. Be careful not

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Speaker 2: to step in any blood, because there's no tracking of

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Speaker 2: blood or footprints or shoeprints or sock prints. There's no

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Speaker 2: smearing on the floor of any sort of transfer like that.

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Speaker 2: So this is someone who is being extremely careful, extremely methodic,

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Speaker 2: picking up shellcasings and then able to close curtains and

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Speaker 2: lock doors get rid of all incriminating evidence.

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Speaker 1: All between five and five sixteen pm.

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Speaker 2: Law enforcement and even the prosecution over the years has said,

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Speaker 2: it's tight, it's a tight window, it is a hard cell.

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Speaker 2: We get that. But we believe that he did it

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Speaker 2: because we believe that he pre planned to do it.

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Speaker 1: And so they located as surviving Pelly children. Jesse and

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Speaker 1: Jackie were each at their friends' homes, and they said

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Speaker 1: that Jeff was at Great America, so that dispels the

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Speaker 1: state's motive. But then Jackie and Jesse disagreed about whether

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Speaker 1: or not the family's twenty gage shotgun was in the home.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, she says that before she left for her sleepover

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Speaker 2: on Friday, that the gun was there, that the gun

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Speaker 2: was on the rack. That's her memory. She's obviously young, idea,

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Speaker 2: don't know how often she went in there and like check,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know if that's a memory from a

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Speaker 2: pre existing entry into her parents' room or not.

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Speaker 1: But according to both Jackie and Thomas Keb that shotgun

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Speaker 1: was not in the parsonage. Next, Lakeville PD went to

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Speaker 1: get Jeff near Great America. They searched his car, found

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Speaker 1: a paper grocery bag containing his black Hawaiian shirt and

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Speaker 1: blue jeans, which also had a dollar bill and thirty

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Speaker 1: four coins in the pocket, and there was also a

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Speaker 1: legible receipt in the bag. Jeff was then brought back

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Speaker 1: to Lakeville for an interview with the cops in the

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Speaker 1: company of his grandparents.

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Speaker 3: So five am Monday, he waives his rights and he

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Speaker 3: gives a statement. It's recorded. When they ask him, can

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Speaker 3: you think of anyone that would do this, he readily

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Speaker 3: says the only thing I can think of is it

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Speaker 3: could be the herse ags And I'm paraphrasing. My dad

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Speaker 3: was investigating a theft ring. These kids are mad at

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Speaker 3: my dad. You need to go talk to Detective Center.

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Speaker 1: Who confirmed what Jeff said. Now without a confession, police

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Speaker 1: began to say speculate about Jeff's reaction to the news,

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Speaker 1: which is never convincing evidence of guilt or innocence, but

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Speaker 1: people do it anyway. Now, they also inspected his body

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Speaker 1: for any injuries and they took pictures.

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Speaker 3: Those photographs show that Jeff has not a single mark

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Speaker 3: on his chest. So the theory is he took that

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Speaker 3: family twenty gauge and he fired it at least six

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Speaker 3: times within the confines of a small hallway in a

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Speaker 3: small basement area without at all one bruce. That's Monday morning.

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Speaker 3: So later the grandparents agree to bringing back Monday evening

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Speaker 3: for a polygraph. And at this point they agree they

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Speaker 3: purposely separating from his grandparents for the purpose of getting

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Speaker 3: him to admit this, and you know what, he didn't confess.

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Speaker 1: But in between interviews they discovered something that Jeff hadn't

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Speaker 1: mentioned in his first that he'd stopped at two gas

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Speaker 1: stations on the way to Darla's house. So he explained why,

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Speaker 1: an issue with the car and access to tools that

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Speaker 1: he needed to work with the car, and they said

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Speaker 1: that discrepancy made them doubt his story that he must

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Speaker 1: have done it all while the threat of the death

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Speaker 1: penalty loomed large and importantly, the second interview was not recorded,

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Speaker 1: just some of his answers were jotted down, and the

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Speaker 1: detective alleged that Jeff said something that sounded incriminating.

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Speaker 3: They say, he says something like if I tell you

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Speaker 3: what I know, well I get the death penalty or something.

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Speaker 3: They testify at trial that he said that, Well, maybe

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Speaker 3: that's related to the her songs he told you about them.

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Speaker 2: I think that statement on its face is certainly like

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Speaker 2: what who would say that? But you also just have

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Speaker 2: to know where it's coming from, and also how people

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Speaker 2: respond to questions they're asked, and if only their response

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Speaker 2: is written down and the context of the question is

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Speaker 2: not included. I mean, I've done this with now multiple

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Speaker 2: wrongful conviction claim cases where it's like, wow, okay, now

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Speaker 2: that I know what was asked, that changes how I

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Speaker 2: see the response.

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Speaker 1: Without a recording, we don't even know what exactly was said,

434
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,479
Speaker 1: let alone why. And it also seems that misrepresentations aren't

435
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 1: exactly outside the realm of possibilities in this case. And

436
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to get to that later, but for now,

437
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 1: we do know that Bob Pelly and the Herzogs were

438
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: at odds.

439
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: People in the beginning in the community thought it was

440
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: about this thievery. Mister Pelly was trying to shut down

441
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: at the funeral home. One of the her Sogs showed

442
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: up and if people got into a fight, we put

443
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 3: on Jackie. At the PCR hearing to say, the her

444
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 3: Sogs came over to our house to threaten.

445
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: Jeff, and we only raised the Herzogs to give potential

446
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: context around what was allegedly said in this unrecorded interview. Meanwhile,

447
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: in addition to the clothing from the paperbag in Jeff's car,

448
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: the police retrieved clothing from the Pelly's washing machine. According

449
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: to records they sent to the FBI, there was a

450
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: pink pin striped shirt and tube socks with no biological

451
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: material found, which became sort of a running theme.

452
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: I think the state they just kept hitting walls with

453
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: this physical evidence piece, even down to to the point

454
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: of analyzing the washing machine for blood and biological material.

455
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: The lumina went kind of wild on the floor or

456
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: in the retention of the washer, I think. But right

457
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: away the experts say it's probably from the detergent, which

458
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: like absolutely picture it.

459
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 3: Picture it. You go to a washing machine after killing

460
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 3: four people, trying to get out of those clothes to

461
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: wash away the biological material of the dead. You take

462
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: your clothes off. What happens. It falls where you're just

463
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 3: robing where was that. You'd have to clean it up

464
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: and that would leave a pattern when they sprayed that luminol,

465
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: there were no patterns, so nobody wiped anything up.

466
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: Also, importantly, if Jeff had done this, his blue genes

467
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: should have held onto some biological material. But the FBI

468
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: confirmed that there was no blood on the jeans and

469
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: that they had not been washed. The police even found

470
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: a bloody T shirt in a nearby field that they

471
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: asked the FBI to try to compare it to the

472
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: clothes found of the paper bag to try to find

473
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: a connection, but to no avail. And between Thomas cab

474
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: Lois Stansburg, Sheila Saunders, the autopsy findings, and the lack

475
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: of a confession or physical evidence, the state couldn't charge

476
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: Jeff the prosecutor.

477
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: The subsequent prosecutors who were elected, none of them would

478
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: bring charges. The case, in their eyes, lacked what it

479
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: would need to have a successful prosecution, and so.

480
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: Life moved on for the surviving Pelly children. For now.

481
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: Jackie went to live with her grandparents in Kentucky, came

482
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: into adulthood, and got married, and she's kind of moved

483
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 2: all over with her husband and their family. Jesse goes

484
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: to live with I believe Don's family, and then kind

485
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 2: of just carried on life.

486
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: And remember, Jeff was fifteen when they left his friends

487
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: in Florida, and he had no clue about anything that

488
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: was going on between Phil and his dad. Plus he

489
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: was close with Phil's youngest son, Martin.

490
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: Jeff obviously was getting a little bit older. He graduated

491
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: high school. He then moved to Florida in the Fort

492
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: Myers area, he started working for Phil Hawley. Jeff then

493
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: married Phil Hawley's daughter so could have merit into that family.

494
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: And it was kind of throughout that mid nineties timeframe

495
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: that Phil Hawley and his sons are all on trial

496
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: for not Eric Dawson's murder, but the fraud that they

497
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: had committed against Eric Dawson.

498
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, back in Lakeville, one of the assistant prosecutors from

499
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, Christopher Tough, ran for Saint Joseph's County

500
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: prosecuting Attorney, promising to open a cold case unit. He

501
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: was elected in November nineteen ninety eight and they began

502
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: reinvestigating the Pelly case. But the situation didn't really change

503
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: until two thousand and two, when the blue jeans from

504
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: the paper grocery bag with thirty four coins, a dollar bill,

505
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: and a legible receipt were viewed again, but this time

506
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: in a different light.

507
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: And as the court agreed, they clearly confused the blue

508
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 3: jeans and make an assumption that the blue jeans were

509
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 3: what were in the washing machine having been washed. When

510
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: that police officer made that assumption, he sent those blue

511
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: jeans away again for testing, and in two thousand and

512
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 3: two the FBI said they were heavily stained, found no

513
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: blood on them.

514
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: If it's established that the genes weren't in fact washed,

515
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: had coins in the pocket, and there's a receipt in

516
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 2: the bag that they pulled from an evidence storage, then

517
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: it means that law enforcement can't say he committed the

518
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: crime and then covered up and washed his clothes.

519
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: They never asked themselves. Thirty four coins stayed in the

520
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: pocket of a pair of jeans washed off, thirty four

521
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: of them? What are you talking about?

522
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: Not to mention that evidence, especially wet physical evidence, typically

523
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: would never be placed in a paper grocery bag. Now

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: it's unclear where exactly Detective Whitfield's belief falls on the

525
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: scale of honest mistake to pure evil, but either way,

526
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: no one along the way ever questioned the belief, and

527
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: he obtained an arrest warrant, which was executed at Los

528
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: Angeles International Airport. Jeff was arriving from a business trip

529
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: with his wife and Jackie, who then found him a

530
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: California attorney named Alan Baum to handle the arraignment. After

531
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: seeing the facts of the case, Allen State on board.

532
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: But even more information came to light after Jeff's arrest.

533
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 3: Tony Baylor, she comes forward once there's a trial date,

534
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: and she goes to the police department, not to mister

535
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: Pelly's lawyers, to the police department and they record her

536
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: statement and she describes this encounter with mister Pelly and

537
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: the church in which he expresses fear for his family's

538
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: safety from his experiences from Florida following him to Indiana.

539
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: Which obviously doesn't really point in Jeff's direction. So that's

540
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: like not super great for a prosecution.

541
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 3: And that particular tape of Tony Baylor never made it

542
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: into the jury trial because mister Pelly's lawyers never knew

543
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: of her.

544
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: I really don't think, based on what the records show,

545
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: that it was a reinvestigation to try and solve the homicides.

546
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: I believe it shows that the reinvestigation was to ultimately

547
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: clear or not clear Jeff Pelly as a suspect, and

548
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: those are two very different things. And ultimately I don't

549
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: think they pursued really avenues of clearing him. I think

550
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: they pursued more avenues of arrest.

551
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: From two thousand and three, Jeff was held in pre

552
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: trial detention with no bond until his attorney finally got

553
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: one set in two thousand and five, and he wasn't

554
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: tried until two thousand and six.

555
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: From nineteen eighty nine to like two thousand and three

556
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: is a huge delay.

557
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: That's a very cold case, right.

558
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: I think his attorneys have argued like that in itself

559
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: could have been prejudicial or was prejudicial? Do you then

560
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: have all the way until six before you get a

561
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: trial because of different clocks in the court going at

562
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: different speeds, and then you know, in that timeframe from

563
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 2: the arrest of the trial, the state pauses for like

564
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: over a year to say they need these family counseling records,

565
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: and then they get them and they never use them.

566
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: Maybe they were just stalling because the case was so weak.

567
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Frank Shaeffer, even admitted to the jury that

568
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: they had no physical evidence.

569
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: There's no blood found on Jeff for his belongings. There's

570
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: nothing of his found on the victims way in which

571
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: that would indicate he was present for the crime. They

572
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: don't find the firearm, they don't find the shellcas things,

573
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 2: they don't find a bundle of clothing and a dumpster

574
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: somewhere that was somewhere he made a stop. Nothing physical

575
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 2: evidence wise connects Jeff to the crime.

576
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: It was a circumstantial case. The investigators described the scene

577
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: and then they established their timeline with the prom goers,

578
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: which was countered by Lois Stansbury. But her Kmart receipt

579
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: had mysteriously disappeared, just vanished, so the state was able

580
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: to explain her away, along with other aberrations like the

581
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: popcorn in Bob's stomach and the light that was on

582
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: in the basement at nine to fifteen pm and two am.

583
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: So then the stage was set for between five and

584
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 1: five sixteen pm.

585
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: The prosecution was relying on individuals that knew Jeff and

586
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: Bob Pelly to talk about their tumultuous relationship and the

587
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: issue of a prom Could he go, could he not go?

588
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: Could take a car? Could he not take his car?

589
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: And so even though the state doesn't really have to

590
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: prove motive. They knew that was the only way they

591
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 2: were going to be able to convince jurors that Jeff

592
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: had done it.

593
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: The problem with that is Jackie and Jesse both testified

594
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: that Jeff was allowed to go, but they disagreed about

595
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: whether the family's twenty gage shotgun was in the house,

596
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: which could have been cleared up by Thomas Kebb.

597
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: Thomas Kebb never testifies at the trial. Obviously the defense

598
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: would have wanted to use him because he's saying, no,

599
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: there was no guns in the Pelly home. All the

600
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: guns came to me before the murder, which sort of

601
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: takes away the state's point of there was a shotgun

602
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: hanging on a rack in the bedroom and that's what

603
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: Jeff grabbed and killed his family with. Well, if the

604
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: gun isn't there, then Deff can't do the crime. But

605
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: Thomas Keb was problematic because I pointed out in the

606
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: show that the defense got into why he had the guns.

607
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: They had to go into the point that Jeff had

608
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: threatened to take his own life the year before, and

609
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: I think Jeff's trial attorney saw that as does that

610
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: paint Jeff as a stable.

611
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: But an unarmed Jeff can't shoot his family, unstable or not.

612
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: And to make matters worse, that wasn't his team's only failure.

613
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 3: The initial claim in the proble cause Affidavid says that

614
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: the blue jeans were washed. The defense attorneys never looked

615
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: inside the brown bag to know that the blue jeans

616
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: themselves were dirty.

617
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: He just accepted the prosecution's established fact that the jeans

618
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: had been washed.

619
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: So the state's misrepresentation that the jeans had been pulled

620
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: from the washing machine went unchallenged, and the jury was

621
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: left with the impression that Jeff covered his tracks by

622
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: washing those Jens.

623
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: What I found absolutely unbelievable is that Craig Whitfield, the

624
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: investigator who took up the case that reinvestigated and ultimately

625
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: submitted the arrest affidavit and arrested Jeff Pelly, was never

626
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: called to testify at his trial. So the absence of

627
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: Craig Whitfield, I think says a lot as far as

628
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: how the prosecution potentially saw downfalls of his work.

629
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: But it appears that the defense may not have prepared

630
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: cross examination anyway.

631
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: The evidence was so weak that I think the defense

632
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: they weren't as prepared as they needed to be to

633
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: attack some of the state's points and totally missed the

634
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: Florida stuff. Totally missed that at the point that the

635
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 3: families killed is right when the Holy Famili's getting arrested.

636
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: But it's not like the defense didn't try to raise

637
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: the specter of Bob's past.

638
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 3: So at trial, the defense is trying to go into

639
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: the Florida facts without witnesses that have firsthand knowledge, and

640
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: so the defense attorney says someone saw a limousine with

641
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: Florida plates. The defense attorneys never found the person who

642
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 3: actually saw the limousine.

643
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: And without a witness with firsthand knowledge, the Florida facts

644
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: were denied. Unfortunately, Tony Bieler's video statement appears to have

645
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: been unavailable as well.

646
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: The defense attorneys testified at the post conviction hearing, had

647
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: they known about that statement, they would have talked to

648
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: that witness.

649
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: So the jury never heard about the danger from Florida.

650
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: But the defense did continue down that alternate suspect road,

651
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: presenting the shotgun wadding evidence suggesting there may have been

652
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: multiple shooters.

653
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: And if there's more than one shooter, that kind of

654
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: takes Jeff off the chessboard, right, because it would just

655
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: be sort of illogical to think that he had a

656
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: co conspirator that's been quiet like all these years. So

657
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: the difference in the wadding types means two types of

658
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: AMMO were used, but same gauge. So either it's two

659
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: different shotguns or one gun is loaded with different types

660
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 2: of AMMO, same gauge, but you know, just different types

661
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: of AMMO, which like, okay, that's not impossible, but it

662
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: would be odd.

663
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: But again, it's not impossible that one shotgun was loaded

664
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: with the same gauge made by two different manufacturers. So

665
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: the evidence fell flat without the Florida facts. And then

666
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: the defense tried to raise doubt about the state's timeline,

667
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: put on an expert who had done studies on the

668
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: rate at which different materials dry and testified that the

669
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: washcloths which were alleged to have been used by Jeff

670
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: at five PM on the day prior would have been

671
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: drier by the time they were collected as evidence.

672
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that really fell flat for the defense because their

673
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: expert that they had hired from out of state was

674
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: just not very thorough with his sort of recreation of

675
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 2: figuring out what rate they would have dried at and

676
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

677
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: Plus, the expert had conducted his experiments in Arizona, a

678
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: totally different and obviously much drier climate than Indiana, which

679
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: made the evidence easy to impeach. The state also played

680
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: the recorded interrogation in which Jeff did not confess, but

681
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: then the state put on the stand the detective who

682
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: had conducted the second unrecorded interview, who testified that Jeff

683
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: had allegedly said, if I tell you what I know,

684
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: will I get the death penalty? And then the defense

685
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: didn't raise the context of that response and what it

686
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: could have meant about the Herzogs that, along with Tony Bieler,

687
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the Florida facts, photos of Jeff's unbruised chest, as well

688
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: as the truth about the blue jeans, well, they simply

689
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 1: were not available to the jury.

690
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: And deliberations, and they're saying, hey, we need more on this.

691
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: We'd like to hear one of those.

692
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: It's the blue jeans and some curiosity about Florida and

693
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: Bob Pelly's past, which is super interesting that the jurors

694
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 4: at trial are.

695
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: Like, well, that seems like there's something there. Can we

696
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: know more? Can we hear a witness or whatever, and

697
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: of course, you know, it just that never happens. After

698
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: she was interviewed as an adult Jesse, she began to

699
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: look back on her experiences and memories about Jeff and

700
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: began to have serious doubts about whether or not someone

701
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: else committed the crime. And he did. And so by

702
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: the time she is that trial, you know, she was

703
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: very convinced that Jeff had committed the crime and that

704
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: he was trying to continue to get away with it,

705
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: so to speak. She was pleased by the verdict and

706
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: there was some closure, but you know, it was never

707
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: one hundred percent closure for her because she genuinely just

708
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: missed her sisters and her mother and she felt so

709
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: much had been taken from her. I know, for Jackie,

710
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: she never thought that Jeff did it. She had no

711
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: reason to think that he did. At his arrest and

712
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: at his eventual trial, she was one hundred percent supportive

713
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: of her brother. She thought he did not do this

714
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: and that he should not have been convicted for it.

715
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 2: She was obviously upset with the verdict, but she's also

716
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: a very determined individual. So really, from the moment it

717
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: was read, it was like, Okay, what's next. What's the

718
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: next phase, what's the next fight? When are we getting

719
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: back in court?

720
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: If you recall, it took about three years to take

721
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,479
Speaker 1: him to trial once he was finally arrested, thirteen long

722
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: years after the crime. So his direct appeal attorney argued

723
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: that a number of issues that caused that delay had

724
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: violated Jeff's right to a speedy trial, which was then

725
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: ultimately prejudicial.

726
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: The Indiana Court of Appeals reversed the four murder convictions

727
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 3: and said that there was a speedy trial violation, the

728
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: state had wasted too much time, And the Indiana Supreme

729
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: Court put those four murder convictions back and said that

730
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: there was no a speedy trial violation.

731
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: So his sentence of one hundred and sixty years remained.

732
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 3: Then, after that decision, I agreed to represent him in

733
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 3: the post conviction action, where, for example, you allege an

734
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: effective assistants, a council, and constitutional speedy trial violations. Let

735
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 3: me say this to you that no one, not the

736
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: defense team and not the Saint Joseph County prosecutor, according

737
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: to the evidence, had the FBI file. I got the

738
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 3: FBI file because there's no way I believe you could

739
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 3: wash a pair of blue jeans sufficient to remove every

740
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 3: piece of blood, but leave thirty four coins in the pocket.

741
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: There's no way I'm going to believe that. Look at

742
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: the coins, they're dirty. Look at the jeans, they're dirty.

743
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 3: The FBI said they were dirty. So I start from

744
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: the premise this is not right.

745
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: Frand made it clear that the defense completely neglected to

746
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: explore how the blue jeans had not been retrieved from

747
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: the washing machine or how they were falsely represented as

748
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: evidence of guilt. Then the defense neglected to show how

749
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: photographs and a lack of bruising showed that Jeff had

750
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: not likely fired a twenty gage shotgun. Plus there was

751
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: the failure on the Florida facts.

752
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: There were ways he could have gotten it in at trial,

753
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 2: even the judge threw him a bone, so to speak,

754
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: at times in sidebar conversations like well, you need to

755
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: do X, Y and Z. If you want to get

756
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: this in this way, you gotta do this. You got

757
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: to give me something to get these facts in that

758
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: you want to argue about Florida and Bopelly in an

759
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: ultimate suspect that didn't happen is also those that knew

760
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 2: his attorney and had hired him for Jeff said, he's

761
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: out in California, He's doing his thing. He's not as

762
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: engaged with the trial. He's doing other trials like those

763
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: sorts of allegations. And I think that his attorney has

764
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: even come bored and said, yeah, could I have done

765
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: a better job on all fronts? Absolutely, I did what

766
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: I thought was best at the time. But now that

767
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: I am being told and shown all these things, I

768
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: agree an IAC complaint is completely valid and let's go,

769
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: which is I think kind of rare.

770
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: So they filed the post conviction motion raising ineffective assistance

771
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: of counsel and speedy trial violations, and they were granted

772
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: a hearing in twenty twenty two in which they presented

773
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: evidence of those claims, along with other evidence supporting his innocence,

774
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: including Tony Bieler.

775
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: So, she testified at the post conviction hearing that conversation

776
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: with mister Pelly was in the weeks before the family

777
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 3: was murdered, and she didn't come forward in eighty nine.

778
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: She was afraid, and she testified about that conversation with

779
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 3: mister Pelly. And if you look, the state didn't ask

780
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 3: her one cross question. We called a lot of witnesses

781
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 3: about the actual Florida facts. We believe that the jury

782
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: should have heard from the mouths of witnesses, including Detective Kopinski,

783
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: who believed that the Hawleys had murdered their business partner.

784
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: So we put in lots of evidence about what was

785
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: going on in Florida that would have caused mister Hawley

786
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 3: to want to foreclose any witnesses from coming forward. And look,

787
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: if you're a father and you've incloves your sons in

788
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: a business enterprise that's criminal, and you've ratcheted up to murder,

789
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: I imagine you'd do a lot to protect your.

790
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: Sons, laying the groundwork for the danger from Florida and

791
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: a potential professional hit. They also hired a cold case

792
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: investigator to take a fresh look at the crime scene evidence.

793
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 3: We presented an expert, mister Sopoli. He testified about the

794
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 3: lack of proper investigation and how the state's theory wasn't

795
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: consistent with the forensics. I mean, there's a lot of

796
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: the crime scene, as our expert witness to Poli testified,

797
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: that would cause one to question whether it was the

798
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 3: actions of a seventeen year old on his way to

799
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 3: the prom.

800
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: Or where mister Sopoli lands that this crime was so

801
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: clean that it likely was a professional hit.

802
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 3: So Poli says, they took big trash bags and they

803
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 3: just step in him to take their clothes off. That's

804
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: how professionals do it. But we tried the case and

805
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 3: then it took the judge well over a year to rule,

806
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: and the judge ruled on the anniversary of the murders,

807
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: which felt harsh. Jeff suffers the deaths of his family,

808
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 3: he mourns them. So we lost, and now we take

809
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: an appeal of the denial of state post conviction relief,

810
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 3: which if we lose, will be a prelude to federal

811
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: habeas and our hope is that the courts will see

812
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 3: that the constitutional speedy trial rights and the right to

813
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: the sixth Amendment effective assistance of council we're violated.

814
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'll link ways to reach Jeff's legal

815
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: team in the episode description, So if anyone has information

816
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: about this case, please reach out. You just might be

817
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: the person that could make a difference here. So with

818
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: that and with a heavy heart, we're going to go

819
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: to closing arguments, where I thank you both for helping

820
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: us tell this harrowing story. And now I'm just going

821
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: to kick back in my chair and close my eyes

822
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: and listen to any closing thoughts you may have. We'll

823
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: start with Delia and then close it out with fran.

824
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: I've really landed, based on what I know and what

825
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: I've learned, if Jeff Pelly committed this crime, which is

826
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: a huge if based on what we know now, but

827
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 2: even if you look at that scenario, he did not

828
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 2: do it in any of the ways that the state

829
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,959
Speaker 2: and investigators came to conclude that he did. It does

830
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: not hold up against what we know about the physical evidence,

831
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: and even with some of the circumstantial testimony, And so

832
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: then you really have to really switch gears and be

833
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: open to the possibility of Okay, let's take him off

834
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: the board. Now what do we look at? And in

835
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: most criminal cases, you would say, here, here, that's kind

836
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: of thin, that's hard. But in this case, there are

837
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: so many credible and legitimate pursuits of investigation that show

838
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: that other individuals or another individual could have committed this crime.

839
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 3: I would close by saying thanks for your interests, thanks

840
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 3: for the willingness to look at the facts without a

841
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 3: bias and with some neutrality. I think this is a

842
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 3: case of injustice in which the state pursued the charges

843
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: against Jeff without evidence that was truthful in terms of

844
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: the Blue Jeans and in terms of the allegations even

845
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 3: about the twenty gage. So I appreciate your audience and

846
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: their interest, and again, as you said, if there's information

847
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: out there that would help Jeff, I more than one

848
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 3: to know that the Pelly family cares that people believe

849
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 3: in his innocence, because that can be sustaining when you

850
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 3: have these court battles, and in all of these cases,

851
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: when we incarcerate the innocent, we let the bad guy

852
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 3: go free. Nobody wants that.

853
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

854
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

855
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

856
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

857
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

858
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliber.

859
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

860
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

861
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

862
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

863
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

864
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

865
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

866
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

867
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: by the individuals featured in this show are their own

868
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: and do not necessarily reflect those of Love of for

869
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: Good