Speaker 1: My name is Andrew. I live in Pennsylvania and I've
Speaker 1: been a registered nurse for about four and a half years.
Speaker 1: I work on a respiratory focused I see you, and
Speaker 1: shortly after the pandemic hit we became the designated COVID
Speaker 1: unit for the hospital. We saw many patients, but one
Speaker 1: question always hovered in our minds. Why do some people
Speaker 1: get it worse than others. This was never more poignant
Speaker 1: than when we had a husband and wife couple on
Speaker 1: our floor. Each patient on my unit has a single
Speaker 1: room with no roommate, but we had these two patients
Speaker 1: visit each other for as long as possible every day,
Speaker 1: coordinating with respiratory physical therapy or technical partners and our
Speaker 1: doctors to make it happen. Their status ebbed and flowed
Speaker 1: for quite a while, but eventually, on one really tough
Speaker 1: tape for the staff and obviously the patient's, a decision
Speaker 1: was made to put the husband on what we call
Speaker 1: comfort measures only, where we switch our goal from treating
Speaker 1: the disease to treating the symptoms and making the patient comfortable,
Speaker 1: and we removed the high flow oxygen that was keeping
Speaker 1: him alive. His wife was wheeled into his room hooked
Speaker 1: up to her own high flow oxygen the whole time,
Speaker 1: and she held his hand while he passed. She survived
Speaker 1: and transferred out of our unit a while later. On
Speaker 1: a day previously where I had been taking care of her,
Speaker 1: she had told me that the only thing she wanted
Speaker 1: was for both of them to have the same outcome,
Speaker 1: either both live or both die, and COVID decided differently.
Speaker 2: My name is Heather. I work in theater and film
Speaker 2: and TV as a costume designer and assistant costume designer
Speaker 2: in New York and across the country, where I did
Speaker 2: every single arch job I know, I've stopped due to COVID.
Speaker 2: New York is an expensive place to live. I personally
Speaker 2: had to leave and move my whole life into a
Speaker 2: storage unit. I'm lucky and I'm able to live with
Speaker 2: friends in DC. Everyone I work with a suffering. Many.
Speaker 2: Many of my friends and coworkers got sick very early
Speaker 2: in the pandemic. Some world told not to get tested
Speaker 2: because there were not enough tests. Everyone has been watching
Speaker 2: their bank account's strain with very little possible work on
Speaker 2: the horizon. Recently, some work has restarted in TV and film. However,
Speaker 2: it's not enough work for everyone to get back at it,
Speaker 2: not to mention that TV and film is an incredibly
Speaker 2: exhausting experience at its best of times, and now, with
Speaker 2: limited contact with coworkers, isolated lunchhowers and pod work groups,
Speaker 2: much of the joys of the job are gone. All
Speaker 2: socializing and most of the collaboration, the heart of arts
Speaker 2: work has been restricted. It's also not a guaranteed safe space.
Speaker 2: You don't have a lot of space between you and
Speaker 2: five hundred background actors. It's not just your personal health
Speaker 2: you have to worry about. It's your family and your neighbors.
Speaker 2: It's a dense city that takes its civic duties seriously.
Speaker 2: No one wants to be part of the spread, But
Speaker 2: how can we earn our rent money? Theater, my primary
Speaker 2: source of work, is still completely gone. Broadway is dark.
Speaker 2: All of the beautiful and kind people I work with
Speaker 2: on stage and backstage are living on pennies and hoping
Speaker 2: for some kind of magic to restore our safest and
Speaker 2: most sacred space, the art. It's our local, national, and
Speaker 2: international community about coming together and telling the truth, whether
Speaker 2: it's funny, serious, secary, or satirical. Bearing witness to someone's
Speaker 2: truth is essential to our human condition. How much TV
Speaker 2: have you binged? How much music have you listened to?
Speaker 2: How much has it helped to soothe your anxiety and
Speaker 2: lift you out of your depression? Not just during this
Speaker 2: pandemic but always. The arts affects you every day. We
Speaker 2: want to come back. Often our industry is painted as worthless. However,
Speaker 2: Winston Churchill himself said when asked if he should cut
Speaker 2: arts funding during World War Two, If we cut the arts,
Speaker 2: then what are we fighting for? We want to work.
Speaker 2: We want to do it safely for ourselves, our loved ones,
Speaker 2: and our local and global communities.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and I'm Aaron Allman. Updyke and
Speaker 4: this is this podcast will kill you.
Speaker 5: Yay, Welcome back to our Anatomy of a Pandemic series.
Speaker 4: Yes, it has been nearly nine months.
Speaker 6: Is that right that since.
Speaker 4: We like first did that big drop of episodes.
Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah, a lot has happened in that time period,
Speaker 5: so much so we thought that for a number of
Speaker 5: different reasons, it's about time for an update.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, I think like reason number one is that we've
Speaker 4: learned so much more about SARS Kobe two, the disease
Speaker 4: that it causes, how it's transmitted, and the steps that
Speaker 4: we have or have not taken that seem to best
Speaker 4: control it's spread.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: The second reason is that right now, especially cases are
Speaker 5: enormously and terrifyingly on the rise.
Speaker 6: Yes they are.
Speaker 4: And the third reason is that the mistrust in science
Speaker 4: and the disinformation that has been spread by the Trump
Speaker 4: administration and some other elected officials has already done unfathomable damage.
Speaker 4: And so you know, let's inject a bit of rational,
Speaker 4: science based thinking back into our lives.
Speaker 5: That's let's do that. I think that sounds really great,
Speaker 5: aren Yeah. For this new batch of episodes, we'll be
Speaker 5: revisiting some of the topics that we covered earlier this year,
Speaker 5: including aspects of the disease virology, the epidemiological characteristics, and
Speaker 5: of course the one that everyone wants to know about, vaccines.
Speaker 6: Yes, vaccines.
Speaker 4: But we want to get these episodes to you as
Speaker 4: fast as we can get them ready, which means that
Speaker 4: the schedule for their release might look a bit wonky.
Speaker 4: So definitely subscribe to us through your podcast app and
Speaker 4: on social media to see when we drop a new
Speaker 4: episode exactly.
Speaker 5: You don't want to miss anything, and if there are
Speaker 5: additional aspects that you'd like to see us cover, or
Speaker 5: particular questions that you have, feel free to send them
Speaker 5: to our email This Podcast will kill You at gmail
Speaker 5: dot com or through the contact us form on our
Speaker 5: website This Podcast will kill You dot Com.
Speaker 4: And of course we are still soliciting first hand account
Speaker 4: for these episodes, so if you would like to share
Speaker 4: your story, please head to our website and click on
Speaker 4: the COVID nineteen first hand tab, which will take you
Speaker 4: to a Google form that you can fill out. And
Speaker 4: also a huge thank you to everyone who has already
Speaker 4: filled out this form and shared your stories with us.
Speaker 4: We are honored to get to read them or hear
Speaker 4: them and wish that we could share every single one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, as with our earlier Anatomy of a Pandemic series,
Speaker 5: these episodes are not going to replace our normal season episodes,
Speaker 5: which will still be coming out every other Tuesday like
Speaker 5: they always do, and on those episodes, we'll be keeping
Speaker 5: the COVID talk to a minimum as much as we can,
Speaker 5: because we know that sometimes an escape from the COVID
Speaker 5: reality is necessary for our collective mental health.
Speaker 6: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: So okay, now onto the important bits. Aaron, what are
Speaker 4: we drinking this episode, Well.
Speaker 5: Of course we're drinking QUARANTINEY twelve.
Speaker 6: Such a descriptive name.
Speaker 5: I love it, such clever Quarantini names for these COVID episodes.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm actually secretly very glad that we did
Speaker 4: not decide to get like super punny and like we.
Speaker 5: Would have had to stop making episodes quite honestly.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 6: So what is in the Quarantine E twelve?
Speaker 5: It's basically a Campari sprits Oh so good.
Speaker 4: I mean, you could use aperal if you prefer. I
Speaker 4: like the bitterness of Campari me too.
Speaker 5: Plus I happen to have it and I don't have Apperal.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like I use Campari much more in
Speaker 4: other drinks as well, So I always have Campari.
Speaker 6: I rarely have apperl yep anyway, exactly.
Speaker 4: Anyways, so onto what we are covering this episode. This episode,
Speaker 4: we're talking all about control, as in, how do we
Speaker 4: control the spread of this virus? But most of that
Speaker 4: we already know, and we have known.
Speaker 6: It since the beginning of this pandemic.
Speaker 4: So what we really wanted to get at in this
Speaker 4: episode is what we have learned works and what maybe
Speaker 4: doesn't work as well as we thought, or isn't as
Speaker 4: important nine months into this thing, because we've learned a
Speaker 4: heck of a lot, and some of that knowledge, like
Speaker 4: the benefits of wearing masks, both for those around the
Speaker 4: mask wearer as well as the mask wearer themselves, has
Speaker 4: played a large role in the shifting guidelines that we've
Speaker 4: seen from public health departments. Controlling the spread of this
Speaker 4: virus takes action at both the individual as well as
Speaker 4: the regional or community level, and so in this episode,
Speaker 4: we wanted to examine both what we can do to
Speaker 4: protect ourselves and those around us from this disease, as
Speaker 4: well as understand why certain restrictions are being put into
Speaker 4: place as this pandemic surges.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for this episode, we were so lucky to chat
Speaker 5: with doctor Saskia Popescu, who answered our many many questions
Speaker 5: about control and also she was just a phenomenally fun
Speaker 5: person to get to chat with and interview.
Speaker 4: It was like such a fun this is such a
Speaker 4: great like, this is such a great start to our Friday,
Speaker 4: no wonderful.
Speaker 5: Well and also she mentioned a Zoom happy hour and
Speaker 5: I'm not really jealous that we're not invited, but anyways,
Speaker 5: so anyways, We recorded this interview on Friday, December fourth,
Speaker 5: so keep that in mind whenever we're talking numbers. Okay,
Speaker 5: we will let her introduce herself and dive into the
Speaker 5: interview right after this break.
Speaker 7: So my name is Oskia Propescu.
Speaker 8: I'm an infectious disease epidemiologist, an infection preventionist, and i
Speaker 8: am an assistant professor of biodefense at your Mason University.
Speaker 5: Awesome, excellent. So our first question for you is kind
Speaker 5: of we're now what over eight months, I think, into
Speaker 5: this pandemic, and we've learned a lot about different control
Speaker 5: measures for preventing the spread of this virus, like mask wearing,
Speaker 5: that indoor dining needs to be restricted, contact tracing, all
Speaker 5: these different things. So we wanted to first talk to
Speaker 5: you about, like the policies at the regional or statewide
Speaker 5: level that seem to actually be the most effective at
Speaker 5: reducing transmission. What have we seen so far that like
Speaker 5: really works well.
Speaker 8: We've seen in several states that widespread mask mandates have
Speaker 8: actually made a considerable difference, but those have also really
Speaker 8: come with conservative efforts to emphasize distancing, reduce the number
Speaker 8: of people indoors and provide more accessible testing. So on
Speaker 8: a national level, though, I think there's been more attention
Speaker 8: from the CDC on masking more recently. They emphasize that
Speaker 8: it does protect the person wearing it and not just
Speaker 8: those around you, but also on limiting gathering. So if
Speaker 8: you look at California, they have a rule about not
Speaker 8: gathering beyond ten people. But I think what we've really
Speaker 8: learned in all of this is that there's no single strategy.
Speaker 8: Really we have to take communication above and beyond and
Speaker 8: focus on risk reduction being additive that Swiss Cheese approach,
Speaker 8: because early on we noticed that when we were emphasizing
Speaker 8: six feet, people really got stuck on that nuanced thing
Speaker 8: and they thought that's beyond six feet. If you were
Speaker 8: a six feet and two inches, it was this almost
Speaker 8: invisible force field. So we really learned a lot about
Speaker 8: communication and that and you'll see that a bit reflected
Speaker 8: in the policies. But then the truth is it's so
Speaker 8: varied by states in the United States. I mean, we
Speaker 8: really do see some states that have taken this above
Speaker 8: and beyond, like Washington State, Washington d C. Even in
Speaker 8: New York. But then you have the Florida governor who
Speaker 8: extended his order that essentially barred towns, cities, and counties
Speaker 8: from enforcing local mask mandates. In Arizona, where I'm from,
Speaker 8: the governor issue very little state efforts and only allowed
Speaker 8: local leaders to implement mask mandates this summer when we
Speaker 8: were starting to really see a surge. So to be
Speaker 8: quite honest, there's not a lot of national control measures
Speaker 8: outside of the guidance the CDC is emphasizing, and in
Speaker 8: many ways, the national approaches kind of fizzled out really
Speaker 8: a way to summer, leaving the onus on local leaders.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think it's it's been interesting to see
Speaker 4: sort of the outcome of that. I think I saw
Speaker 4: a report about I can't remember which state, but the
Speaker 4: state had different county by county measures for mask mandates.
Speaker 7: It was Kansas.
Speaker 6: It was it Kansas.
Speaker 4: Yeah, uh huh yeah, and the counties that had mask
Speaker 4: mandates had the lower infection prevalence or lower infection incidents
Speaker 4: than the counties that had.
Speaker 6: No mask mandates. And it's like, well, of course, but you.
Speaker 4: Know, how does this translate into actually, like, you know,
Speaker 4: increasing mass mandates overall?
Speaker 6: But anyway, yeah, no, I.
Speaker 8: Mean in that Kansas example, I think was so spot
Speaker 8: on because the counties that had no mask mandates saw
Speaker 8: a one hundred percent increase in cases, and I think
Speaker 8: that's such a telling sign of the importance of masking.
Speaker 8: But I know for Arizona, you know, there was an
Speaker 8: MMWR that came out and you really focused on masking,
Speaker 8: but it was like, well, we did all of these
Speaker 8: other things. So it's really important that we don't just
Speaker 8: focus on one intervention, because I think that was the
Speaker 8: mistake we made very early on, like just masking or
Speaker 8: just distancing, and that's not given people the awareness and
Speaker 8: the understanding of how the transmission dynamics work.
Speaker 6: That's a really good point. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So here in the US, on the national scale, we've
Speaker 4: seen no clear, consistent you know, not only policies, but
Speaker 4: even like messaging pro science messaging from Donald Trump that
Speaker 4: would have led to perhaps a reduction rather than an
Speaker 4: increase in cases, which is what we've seen.
Speaker 6: So playing a bit with hypotheticals, how.
Speaker 4: Do you think something like a national mask mandate or
Speaker 4: even just fact based rational messaging might have changed the
Speaker 4: course of the pandemic.
Speaker 8: Truly, I believe this would have made a huge effort
Speaker 8: the lack of pro science leadership and combative approaches to
Speaker 8: those recommendations coming from local leaders or even public health
Speaker 8: figures like doctor Fauci really promoted partisanship within control measures
Speaker 8: and masks should not be a political statement their public
Speaker 8: health strategy. So had we emphasized some things earlier on
Speaker 8: like this is going to take a while to get
Speaker 8: under control, guidance will likely change as the science improves,
Speaker 8: and that we need community based efforts for masking, distancing,
Speaker 8: limiting at risk activities, these things would have likely changed course.
Speaker 8: I also think national efforts to enhance public health communication
Speaker 8: would have really been impacting and could have combated that
Speaker 8: false dichotomy of public health versus the economy or the
Speaker 8: US versus the WHO. So when we focus on support
Speaker 8: services for people to stay home and the rational messaging
Speaker 8: that really emphasizes harm reduction and reduce a stigma and
Speaker 8: provides pragmatic guidance, we can really make a different. So
Speaker 8: what we are seeing with President elect Biden and Vice
Speaker 8: President elect Haris is that emphasis on adequate communications, science
Speaker 8: based messaging and masking mandates. I think it was proposed
Speaker 8: for about one hundred days really to kind of curtail.
Speaker 8: What we're seeing is uncontrolled transmission right now. So we
Speaker 8: need not just fact based, but rational, pragmatic. How can
Speaker 8: you translate this to people to get them to understand
Speaker 8: why it's important for them?
Speaker 7: You know, you can't just.
Speaker 8: Talk at people, you have to talk with them, And
Speaker 8: I think that's a huge failure we've had in the US.
Speaker 5: Oh Man, Yeah, I love too what you said about
Speaker 5: like telling people that guidance might change. I think that
Speaker 5: that's been a really big sticking point for a lot
Speaker 5: of people where they just kind of can't get over
Speaker 5: how much things have changed as we've learned more. And
Speaker 5: I think that that's something that like part of the
Speaker 5: scientific process that people just haven't seen play out in
Speaker 5: real time before.
Speaker 8: No I mean, if you think about it, this is
Speaker 8: outside of you know, SARS, Kobe and Mers. This is
Speaker 8: really one of the first large scale I mean, obviously
Speaker 8: it's a pandemic, but it's the first novel disease we've
Speaker 8: really had to face in the US. Right Ebola in
Speaker 8: twenty fourteen. We know we know how to handle ebola.
Speaker 8: We might not be good at it, but we know
Speaker 8: what to do. This is so novel, and I keep
Speaker 8: reminding people, you know, we identified this in January, you know,
Speaker 8: late December, early January, so we're not even a year out.
Speaker 8: And sure the mask expectations were different in March than
Speaker 8: they are now, but that's because we're getting better. In
Speaker 8: my opinion, I want the evolution of guidance that means
Speaker 8: we are learning more, we're getting better. So I always
Speaker 8: tell people lean into those changes because that means we're
Speaker 8: getting better at control mechanisms.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So kind of looking more globally, there's been a large
Speaker 5: amount of variation in the way that different countries have
Speaker 5: handled this pandemic and kind of responded. Could you highlight
Speaker 5: some of the patterns in either the policies or the
Speaker 5: practices of countries where COVID nineteen has been pretty well
Speaker 5: managed in your opinion, like, what are some other places
Speaker 5: doing better than us?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 8: So I think the shining example we've seen is really
Speaker 8: New Zealand. They have taken very early on a pro
Speaker 8: science message that explained what transmission looked like, what was
Speaker 8: high risk, and they really prioritized contact tracing. So I
Speaker 8: was on a call when they were recently sharing how
Speaker 8: a single case was identified and how rapidly contact tracing
Speaker 8: occurred and how everybody was notified and they provided support
Speaker 8: services so people could go to a hotel, they had
Speaker 8: areas where they could stay if they were supposed to
Speaker 8: be in quarantine. So I think we've learned a lot
Speaker 8: in that approach, where it's not just as simple as
Speaker 8: throwing a bunch of money at testing and in you know,
Speaker 8: healthcare services. We know that's really important. But countries like Germany,
Speaker 8: New Zealand, you know, I think really.
Speaker 7: Have taught us a lot. And there's a lot that.
Speaker 8: Have done, you know, really really amazing work, But more
Speaker 8: and more I find those that emphasized early communication that
Speaker 8: was simple and understandable to the public really did better.
Speaker 8: Japan did really amazing early on billboards, I think about
Speaker 8: things to avoid, and that was crowded areas, indoor spaces,
Speaker 8: you know, very simple messaging, but got the point across.
Speaker 8: And I think those measures have been such role models
Speaker 8: for us to learn from that we have to invest
Speaker 8: in communication to the public. Because we can ramp up
Speaker 8: testing all we want, we can buy more ventilators all
Speaker 8: we want, but if the general public doesn't understand how
Speaker 8: transmission works and what they need to do to stay safe,
Speaker 8: then we failed them. I mean, the simple messaging of
Speaker 8: mask up or stay home is very limited, right, you know,
Speaker 8: and I think that was something that we've really struggled
Speaker 8: with in the US.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. So moving now from sort of this
Speaker 4: regional practices and and measures or nationwide practices and measures
Speaker 4: to the individual things that we can do for ourselves
Speaker 4: or we can put into place to help both protect
Speaker 4: ourselves and those around us. What are some of the
Speaker 4: things that have shown to be the most effective or
Speaker 4: that you think might be the most effective.
Speaker 8: Well, we're in a really pivotal time right now with
Speaker 8: the state of the pandemic in the US. You know,
Speaker 8: we're seeing the highest case counts and hospitalizations ever coupled
Speaker 8: with the winter months and the holidays. But what we
Speaker 8: do know is that things like masking and distancing hand
Speaker 8: hygiene and avoided crowded and especially indoor spaces are important.
Speaker 8: But honestly, what I think is the most important is
Speaker 8: being cognizant that risk reduction is really additive. And as
Speaker 8: we discussed earlier, the studies in Kansas and even Arizona's
Speaker 8: shown a lot of impact on masking, But those requirements
Speaker 8: also came with a lot of concerted community education and awareness,
Speaker 8: but more so it's not just one thing, it's all
Speaker 8: of them. So just like testing before a flight is helpful,
Speaker 8: but it doesn't eliminate risk. So more and more with
Speaker 8: the amount of transmission in the community, I really just
Speaker 8: encourage people to try and stay home when they can,
Speaker 8: but avoid those high risk activities or areas like bars
Speaker 8: and indoor dining gatherings where there's a lot of people.
Speaker 8: But I try to really emphasize that Swiss cheeze approach,
Speaker 8: that additive measure to control efforts, because I have found
Speaker 8: that when we say, well, you need to wear a
Speaker 8: mask when you're outside your house outdoors is protective, people think, well,
Speaker 8: if I'm outdoors and you know, I'm around other people,
Speaker 8: but I'm outdoors, so that's helpful, so I don't need
Speaker 8: to wear a mask. And we know that if you
Speaker 8: are within close contact of people outside your household, even
Speaker 8: if you're outdoors, you still need to be wearing a mask.
Speaker 8: So what I have really found is that discussing that
Speaker 8: additive approach has been the most helpful, and that it's
Speaker 8: not just the masking, it's not just the distancing and
Speaker 8: trying to be outdoors and the hand hygiene. It's all
Speaker 8: of those things together because all of them, you know,
Speaker 8: work together. One is imperfect, but together they help reduce risk.
Speaker 8: Nothing is going to eliminate risk right now, So you know,
Speaker 8: how can we give people the tools to think critically
Speaker 8: and make informed decisions?
Speaker 7: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: Yeah, if we could focus a little bit on masks,
Speaker 5: since that's been a large part of the conversation. We
Speaker 5: know that not all masks are the same. Could you
Speaker 5: maybe break down some of the different types of masks
Speaker 5: and explain which ones seem to be doing a pretty
Speaker 5: good job of helping to slow down transmission and which
Speaker 5: ones might not be quite as effective.
Speaker 8: So, really, what we see are three things cloth face coverings,
Speaker 8: surgical masks, and respirators. Now, respirators are n ninety fives
Speaker 8: and those half face respirators that can be reprocessed, and
Speaker 8: they're very specific to healthcare settings where we're doing aerosol
Speaker 8: generating procedures. They require actually fit testing to make sure
Speaker 8: that you have a good seal and a good fit
Speaker 8: and that you don't have a medical contraindication because they
Speaker 8: filter out about ninety five percent of the particles that
Speaker 8: are point three microns in size are larger, so very
Speaker 8: highly protective, very helpful masks for healthcare workers, but they're
Speaker 8: very dependent on the fit and making sure you have
Speaker 8: the right seal below that we have masks those are
Speaker 8: more loose fitting, they're disposable. We often use these for
Speaker 8: the physical barrier around your mouth and your nose, and
Speaker 8: that's for larger droplets and splashes, but not those smaller
Speaker 8: particles or aerosols.
Speaker 7: So next you.
Speaker 8: Would see the most common one we're seeing in the
Speaker 8: community right now, and those are cloth face coverings. These
Speaker 8: do act as more of a source control. We are
Speaker 8: more and more learning that they do have some variable
Speaker 8: level of protection for the person wearing them. But part
Speaker 8: of the problem is that you did see for a
Speaker 8: while people wearing cloth face masks with an exhaust valve,
Speaker 8: and that's the exact opposite of what we want because
Speaker 8: you're basically exhausting potentially infectious air. So that's something that
Speaker 8: we really don't want to see people doing, whether it
Speaker 8: is a cloth face mask or any kind of other
Speaker 8: mask that has an exhaust valve without a filter on it.
Speaker 8: So research has really shown that both surgical masks and
Speaker 8: the unvented k and ninety five, So if you heard
Speaker 8: about K ninety fives, those are the Chinese masks that
Speaker 8: have been granted emergency authorization for use in the United States.
Speaker 8: Early on, these were just for healthcare workers, but they
Speaker 8: became more widely available for the public. I always tell people, though,
Speaker 8: if you're going to buy some, make sure you check
Speaker 8: the CDC in the niosh website, because there have been
Speaker 8: some issues with counterfeits, so just check the manufacturing number.
Speaker 8: But they do offer a higher level of filtration and protection.
Speaker 8: They're a little bit more fitted around the face, so
Speaker 8: they fit more snugly, and they do actually between them
Speaker 8: and surgical masks, they can reduce the outward emission up
Speaker 8: to ninety percent. So we know that filtration though is
Speaker 8: lowest for the cloth mask. That's lower than a surgical
Speaker 8: mask and a respirator. But they do offer varying levels
Speaker 8: of support. More so, we found that people wearing multi
Speaker 8: layer cloth masks that are fitting a little bit more
Speaker 8: snugly around the face have a better fit. Water resistant
Speaker 8: fabric is always great, finer weaves and higher number of threads.
Speaker 8: They do offer some reasonable protection. So I think the
Speaker 8: moral of the story is those higher level and ninety
Speaker 8: fives are really for healthcare workers, and I've seen a
Speaker 8: lot people wear them, but unless you have a proper
Speaker 8: fit test and a seal, they're not giving you the
Speaker 8: protection you might think. So you know, it's it's I'm
Speaker 8: a fan of the surgical mask when I'm out in public,
Speaker 8: or K ninety five if it's not a counterfeit one
Speaker 8: and you've validated that. But we've seen some good success
Speaker 8: with cloth masks. I just really encourage people to make
Speaker 8: sure it's fitted around the face. You have multiple layers,
Speaker 8: and it's covering your nose in your mouth.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's one of the most important parts that you're
Speaker 5: actually wearing it to cover your nose and mouth.
Speaker 7: Buy one that fits.
Speaker 8: It's so much about masks is about the seal and
Speaker 8: the level filtration they offer.
Speaker 6: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: So as we've talked about, you know, in this conversation,
Speaker 4: we've talked about how the risk of infection is this
Speaker 4: moving target and it's additive, like you can control sort
Speaker 4: of the different levels of risk that you have. You know,
Speaker 4: it depends on things like where you live, what your
Speaker 4: health status is, and you know, most importantly what risk
Speaker 4: behaviors you engage in. And our knowledge of transmission and
Speaker 4: how transmission happens and where it happens has become a
Speaker 4: bit more nuanced as the pandemic has progressed. So going
Speaker 4: into sort of the breakdown of this, you know, large
Speaker 4: gatherings are likely to be more transmission than you know,
Speaker 4: small gatherings or is that the case our grocery store.
Speaker 6: Visits and outdoor runs.
Speaker 4: How do they compare to things like indoor dining or
Speaker 4: working out in a gym? You know, what are we
Speaker 4: seeing as hot spots of infection that we may not
Speaker 4: have seen at the beginning of this or may not
Speaker 4: have identified as hot spots earlier on in this pandemic.
Speaker 8: Yeah, So I think that's a tough one because there's
Speaker 8: the environmental aspect of what is the environment? You know,
Speaker 8: are you in an office building or are you at
Speaker 8: a park ramata? And then there's the human factor's aspect
Speaker 8: of it. So anything can be unsafe if a bunch
Speaker 8: of people come together, right, So we know that the
Speaker 8: riskiest place are indoors where there's a lot of people
Speaker 8: for a prolonged period of time, they're close together, and
Speaker 8: in some cases they're even far apart. But we know
Speaker 8: that you know, if you've got a lot of people
Speaker 8: inside they're not wearing their masks, ventilation might be iffy.
Speaker 8: So that to me means bars, restaurants, right places where
Speaker 8: you are not wearing your mask consistently, even if you
Speaker 8: are space six feet apart. That automatically though, puts kind
Speaker 8: of those environments into our contacts of high risk. But
Speaker 8: if you had a huge office building and people very
Speaker 8: very spread apart, less risky, but more and more we
Speaker 8: are just emphasizing that indoors. You know, we have seen
Speaker 8: some cases where people along the air conditioning line right
Speaker 8: where it's venting out, it's blowing out, are higher risk
Speaker 8: than people that aren't. So we've seen clusters and even
Speaker 8: super spread or events stem from house parties, weddings, choir
Speaker 8: practices early on a gym, and events like the nomination
Speaker 8: of Amy Coney Barrett at the White House. So when
Speaker 8: we look at those other areas like grocery stores, I
Speaker 8: think so much of the early emphasis on grocery stores
Speaker 8: and even gyms put a lot of attention on the
Speaker 8: infection control measures. And it was interesting because for the
Speaker 8: grocery store especially, those interactions are very brief, but so
Speaker 8: early on in this pandemic because there was so much
Speaker 8: attention to those areas, they put in so many wonderful
Speaker 8: control measures like limiting the number of people inside, everybody's
Speaker 8: got to wear a mask, hand hygiene, you know, barriers
Speaker 8: for the cashiers, and all of these little pieces, and
Speaker 8: I think that's really made a big difference. We have
Speaker 8: found that there have been some outbreaks associated with gyms,
Speaker 8: but a lot of that is because they weren't taking
Speaker 8: the necessary precautions. And you know, it's simply that we
Speaker 8: weren't ensuring that those measures were in place. And part
Speaker 8: of it, I honestly believe, is it's really hard for
Speaker 8: a business to suddenly have to implement all of these
Speaker 8: infection control measures without a little bit more guidance. So,
Speaker 8: you know, when we look at gyms, I've also seen
Speaker 8: many take great precautions to ensure spacing, masks, disinfection, open windows,
Speaker 8: and outdoor exercises. And it's funny because even doctor Fauci
Speaker 8: said he wears his mask under his chin when he
Speaker 8: runs and then pulls it over his mouth and knows
Speaker 8: when he sees someone coming near him. And I think
Speaker 8: that's a great strategy for what we've been emphasizing with
Speaker 8: outdoor activities that you can be distancing but might come
Speaker 8: into contact with others. So really what it comes down
Speaker 8: to is what are you doing in this activity? Are
Speaker 8: you unable to wear a mask? Are you indoors, are
Speaker 8: you around others? Or are you able to be outside
Speaker 8: distance and mask. I do think the challenge we see
Speaker 8: now is that people get fixated on one piece of
Speaker 8: the recommendation, like outdoor dining, and forget the rest, which
Speaker 8: is why we're seeing people create basically indoor dining experiences.
Speaker 7: Outdoors Oh yeah, a.
Speaker 8: Little igloos or they put up walls all around, and
Speaker 8: it's kind of defeating the purpose of those recommendations.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: So we are unfortunately very much in the middle of
Speaker 5: a massive surge in case and COVID related deaths here
Speaker 5: in the US. And even though we know a lot
Speaker 5: more now than we did at the beginning of the
Speaker 5: pandemic about like the fundamentals of the virus transmission and
Speaker 5: the ways that we can control it, a lot of
Speaker 5: these haven't really changed, right, Like, even though we've learned
Speaker 5: a bit more. So, where do you think this surge
Speaker 5: is really coming from?
Speaker 8: Well, you know, I do think We've learned more about infectiousness,
Speaker 8: so we know that people are more contagious a couple
Speaker 8: of days before their symptoms and for about five days after.
Speaker 8: We've learned more that people can shed cultural virus for
Speaker 8: up to ten days after their symptoms, so now we
Speaker 8: know really isolating people for ten days is super important,
Speaker 8: and that they can shed non cultural virus and BPCR
Speaker 8: are positive for like eighty to ninety days. We've also
Speaker 8: learned more about like situational airborne transmission, and that while
Speaker 8: most transmission is through close contact, we've seen cases where
Speaker 8: people were further than six feet apart indoors, then eletion
Speaker 8: may not have been great, and there were no masks.
Speaker 8: So you know, all of these really contributed to transmission,
Speaker 8: which really emphasizes the use of masking when you're indoors
Speaker 8: and outside your home. But ultimately, I think the surge
Speaker 8: that we're seeing right now is a product of.
Speaker 7: A few things.
Speaker 8: First of all, cold weather that moves people indoors. I
Speaker 8: know that there was a lot of questions about the
Speaker 8: seasonality of COVID nineteen. For the most part, virologists have
Speaker 8: really said this isn't about seasonal you know, warmth, or air.
Speaker 8: It's about human factors, right, virus needs a human and
Speaker 8: it's all about our habits. So cold weather moves us
Speaker 8: all indoors. We tend to be more social creatures around
Speaker 8: the holidays, and with that plus pandemic fatigue and people
Speaker 8: honestly just deciding that this is going to be around
Speaker 8: for a while, So why are we taking it that seriously?
Speaker 8: This is why we're seeing over two hundred and ten
Speaker 8: thousand cases a day and one hundred thousand people are hospitalized.
Speaker 8: This is such a serious inflection point in the US.
Speaker 8: I feel like we keep saying this, but the impression
Speaker 8: I've really gotten from many, and the one that scares
Speaker 8: me the most, is that they're just tired of COVID
Speaker 8: nineteen and the lack of leadership and efforts in the
Speaker 8: US means it's either not serious or it's going to
Speaker 8: be around for a while. So why should that impact
Speaker 8: their activities moving forward? You know, if this is going
Speaker 8: to be with us, why shouldn't they have a normal
Speaker 8: Thanksgiving or you know, get together with friends at a barbecue,
Speaker 8: and those those little nuances worrying me on top of
Speaker 8: what we know is pushing transmission. You know, people moving indoors.
Speaker 8: More people are traveling now on holidays.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And so that kind of brings me to
Speaker 4: ask whether you know, with this, with this COVID fatigue
Speaker 4: that you know, I think probably everyone is feeling. Do
Speaker 4: you think that these lockdowns or increased restrictions that are
Speaker 4: being put into place in some high prevalence locations, do
Speaker 4: you think that they'll have the same effect in flattening
Speaker 4: this third wave as they seem too earlier in the pandemic,
Speaker 4: when there was perhaps a bit less of the fatigue.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I mean, I think we've learned a lot about restrictions
Speaker 8: not being binary, right, It's not a closure or open.
Speaker 8: It's more of a light switch dimmer, so more targeted.
Speaker 8: I do think they will help, but it's honestly hard
Speaker 8: to tell right now because we're dealing with the holidays
Speaker 8: in cold weather, plus a lot of these interventions take
Speaker 8: weeks to see the results, right. I think we're more
Speaker 8: aware of the importance of communication and strategic with it
Speaker 8: and being incremental and very targeted, and knowing that we
Speaker 8: need to focus on things like bars and indoor dining
Speaker 8: and large gatherings and focus on those so that we
Speaker 8: can prioritize school openings. We know, things like tournaments and
Speaker 8: weddings and gatherings or at risk for transmission, so there's
Speaker 8: been a lot of focused efforts around those. The issue though,
Speaker 8: is that we're still seeing a lot of politicization of
Speaker 8: masks and public health measures. So in Arizona where I live,
Speaker 8: the city of Phoenix recently just said we're going to
Speaker 8: close the parks to turn because they had had hundreds
Speaker 8: of people gathering for tournaments, which is a huge risk
Speaker 8: for transmission, and that was met with a lot of resistance.
Speaker 7: So, you know, ultimately, I think.
Speaker 8: It's important to note that this is this massive wave
Speaker 8: really across the entire US that we're seeing is it's rolling.
Speaker 8: You know, the US is such a massive country and
Speaker 8: it's very siloed and how it's approached this. So what
Speaker 8: we saw this spring in summer was a rolling wave
Speaker 8: from the northeast to the sun Belt. So in some
Speaker 8: ways this is very new. You know, we've not seen
Speaker 8: what we're kind of experiencing right now, and yet we're
Speaker 8: trying to apply the lessons we know we should learn.
Speaker 8: So I do find that a strategic approach often is
Speaker 8: more beneficial and often gets more public support, which is
Speaker 8: what we need for interventions to be successful. I think
Speaker 8: we've learned that lesson versus the first time, where it
Speaker 8: was everybody's got to close down, and now it's let's
Speaker 8: be a little bit more specific, a little bit more targeted,
Speaker 8: but really emphasize and take the time to communicate with
Speaker 8: the public so that we can get their buy in,
Speaker 8: because if people don't agree with or understand why you're
Speaker 8: closing certain things, it's not going to be successful. And
Speaker 8: that's been really confusing for people, like why are we
Speaker 8: closing schools but bars and restaurants are still open.
Speaker 7: I am hopeful that these.
Speaker 8: Targeted efforts are going to be more successful, but I
Speaker 8: always stress with people it takes time, and it's going
Speaker 8: to take that much more time when we are seeing
Speaker 8: just such uncontrolled transmission in the community right now. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Do you think or maybe have we seen yet
Speaker 5: so far any kind of reduction in other seasonal respiratory
Speaker 5: infections kind of overall because of at least in places
Speaker 5: where risk reduction strategies are being implemented. Do you think
Speaker 5: have we seen or do you think that we could
Speaker 5: see a reduction in other infections?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm really hopeful.
Speaker 8: So you know, we did see historic lows in the
Speaker 8: southern hemisphere like Australia, Chile, and South Africa for flu
Speaker 8: as a results of the interventions that were developed for
Speaker 8: COVID nineteen and that big emphasis on flu vaccines. So
Speaker 8: I think a big piece of this is testing last year,
Speaker 8: I should say early this year. Technically, suddenly we saw
Speaker 8: this massive drop and tests being done for influenza. And
Speaker 8: I can tell you just having like worked in health
Speaker 8: care during that time, it felt like everybody stopped testing
Speaker 8: for flu.
Speaker 7: Suddenly.
Speaker 8: If you came in with a cough and a fever,
Speaker 8: you were getting COVID nineteen testing. You were not getting
Speaker 8: flu testing. So now I think we're so hyper aware
Speaker 8: of the potential for it to be a double whammy
Speaker 8: that there is going to be a lot more emphasis
Speaker 8: on testing. So hopefully we'll have a better understanding of
Speaker 8: the flu activity. But overall, we know that these interventions
Speaker 8: for COVID nineteen are the same for other respiratory infections,
Speaker 8: masking distancing, hand hygiene cleaning and disinfection social distancing, those
Speaker 8: all will have a positive impact. So I'm very hopeful
Speaker 8: that we'll see what occurred in Australia happen here. You know.
Speaker 8: I think a lot of that though, is going to
Speaker 8: be for us to test appropriately for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so public health officials have made it pretty clear
Speaker 4: that non essential travel should not be conducted, especially during
Speaker 4: this holiday season and maybe especially during this incredible surge.
Speaker 6: But of course people are.
Speaker 4: Going to travel anyway, and so you know, knowing that,
Speaker 4: what are the steps that they can take to be
Speaker 4: as safe as possible if they are committed to traveling, Well.
Speaker 8: First, I'm always going to go back to risk production
Speaker 8: being additive. So it's not just the mask or the
Speaker 8: distancing or the pre travel testing that many people do.
Speaker 7: It's everything.
Speaker 8: So I always encourage people to do a few things,
Speaker 8: and this is stuff I practice when traveling for work.
Speaker 8: You know, I'm never going to give guidance that I
Speaker 8: couldn't follow myself. And first and foremost is don't travel
Speaker 8: if you're sick or you've recently been exposed. And I
Speaker 8: hate that I have to say it, but I've unfortunately
Speaker 8: seen it. So try to build in some quarantine before
Speaker 8: and after you travel. Be mindful of where you're going
Speaker 8: and where you're coming from. Are you going to an
Speaker 8: area of high prevalence from an area of low prevalence,
Speaker 8: and vice versa. Because it's not just about the traveling,
Speaker 8: it's also about the places you're going in the activities
Speaker 8: you're doing. When you're at the airport, I tell people,
Speaker 8: you know, on the airplane, try to sit at a window.
Speaker 8: Airplanes have wonderful ventilation and air exchanges. Try to get
Speaker 8: that window seat. That way, you're around less people. Wear
Speaker 8: your mask at all times, clean your hands frequently, and
Speaker 8: avoid touching your face or under your mask. One of
Speaker 8: the biggest things that I personally have seen is that
Speaker 8: we tend to not be mindful of when we're eating
Speaker 8: and drinking. So look at those around you. If you're
Speaker 8: on an airplane, when they hand out the water and
Speaker 8: the snacks and these little baggies, everybody does the same
Speaker 8: thing at the same time. They tug off the masks,
Speaker 8: drink some water, and they eat a snack. It's the
Speaker 8: same time. And so I always, you know, and I
Speaker 8: think it's really fascinating because we've developed these wonderful little,
Speaker 8: you know, snack bags, but we're handing them out at
Speaker 8: the same time to everybody, So everybody is then engaging
Speaker 8: in masks a time of eating and drinking, So I
Speaker 8: try to be super mindful of that, and I just
Speaker 8: kind of stagger when I eat and drink based off
Speaker 8: of those around me. And I see a lot of
Speaker 8: complacency at the baggage claim and at the gates. It's
Speaker 8: kind of like people think they got to the finish line.
Speaker 8: So please make sure you're still wearing your mask and
Speaker 8: distancing then and moreover, I really think the biggest thing
Speaker 8: is that, you know, you really need to ask yourself,
Speaker 8: do I need to travel or can I make this
Speaker 8: a safer approach through a virtual visit. Just because you
Speaker 8: test pre travel does not mean you are not potentially
Speaker 8: sick when you travel. Testing is one moment in time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's so important. And I love those
Speaker 5: the graphs that I've seen of like you know, when
Speaker 5: certain tests might become positive based on when you were exposed,
Speaker 5: and like how how variable that can be?
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, it's and you know, it's so interesting to me.
Speaker 8: There was a study I think that just got a
Speaker 8: lot of attention, or a case study where somebody was
Speaker 8: tested a few days before they traveled internationally and became
Speaker 8: infectious on the plane and it led to subsequent cases.
Speaker 8: But nobody mentioned that the test was five days before
Speaker 8: the travel. Oh and so you know, it kills me
Speaker 8: because especially as we start to see testing delays in
Speaker 8: the US, with everybody going to get tested before the
Speaker 8: holidays or before they travel. No test is perfect, right,
Speaker 8: and even if you get tested the day of, there's
Speaker 8: still a percentage that it might be inaccurate or that
Speaker 8: you know, you could become positive like the next day.
Speaker 8: So I really stress that testing is very reactionary, it's
Speaker 8: a secondary form of prevention, and that it should not
Speaker 8: be used as a means for engaging and you know,
Speaker 8: less safe behavior.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, So. I think our last question is something that
Speaker 5: you have mentioned and we've kind of touched on a
Speaker 5: little bit, and that is COVID fatigue. I think that's
Speaker 5: a very real thing that so many people are experiencing.
Speaker 5: What would you like to say to someone that is
Speaker 5: experiencing COVID fatigue?
Speaker 7: I mean, it's real. COVID fatigue is real.
Speaker 8: I think we all need to appreciate that we're living
Speaker 8: and working in a pandemic. And this is coming from
Speaker 8: somebody who has studied, you know, and lived pandemic preparedness.
Speaker 7: My entire life.
Speaker 8: It's something that I'm passionate about, and it is exhausting,
Speaker 8: you know. It's a true pandemic, something you don't see
Speaker 8: very often, and this one is really bad, and especially
Speaker 8: in the United States.
Speaker 7: So coupled with the.
Speaker 8: Fact that we're in the middle of an election year
Speaker 8: with a lot of politicization of basic public health, we're
Speaker 8: all just trying to get by. So I really encourage
Speaker 8: people just be safe, keep going, and try to preserve
Speaker 8: some semblance of mental health. Reach out to people, you know,
Speaker 8: I say that this will eventually get better, though, Instead
Speaker 8: of focusing on what we can't do, try to pivot
Speaker 8: to what we're able to do and creative way to
Speaker 8: have holidays or normal activities. Ultimately, we're all in this
Speaker 8: together and we need to support each other. So that
Speaker 8: looks like a lot of different things, from not stigmatizing
Speaker 8: or using shame, to checking in on people and taking
Speaker 8: time for yourself and honestly not being so hard on yourself.
Speaker 8: Right now, this is such It's been the longest year,
Speaker 8: you know. I think there's a joke for a lot
Speaker 8: of us that if you look at COVID symptoms, one
Speaker 8: of them is a headache and it's like, well, we've
Speaker 8: all had a headache for twenty twenty.
Speaker 7: We're all tired.
Speaker 8: So but the truth is that, you know, it's it's
Speaker 8: hard working in it, but it's just hard living in it.
Speaker 8: So I try to preserve that hope and that it
Speaker 8: will go away at some point. It might not be immediate.
Speaker 8: I think that was a mistake we made early on,
Speaker 8: was giving people a date. And it might take a while,
Speaker 8: but we will get ahead of this, you know, whether
Speaker 8: it's through vaccine development or just getting better at community
Speaker 8: interventions or both, but we will get there. So now
Speaker 8: it's just about protecting yourself and those around you and
Speaker 8: trying to you know, focus on your mental and physical
Speaker 8: and just well being.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 8: People keep saying I just wanted to get back to normal.
Speaker 8: Normal is what got us here. I want us to
Speaker 8: honestly get to a new point where we prioritize public
Speaker 8: health and pandemic preparedness, but also support services that make
Speaker 8: it possible for people to be safe and stay home.
Speaker 4: That was such a great interview. Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 4: so much for taking the time to chat with us.
Speaker 6: Saskia. Yes, and there was.
Speaker 5: So much great information and I feel like she explained
Speaker 5: it so well, and I learned so much. Absolutely, And
Speaker 5: because there's so much that we learned, just like with
Speaker 5: our earlier episodes in the series, we wanted to close
Speaker 5: out with a recap of five key things that we
Speaker 5: feel like we learned in this episode.
Speaker 4: Number one. This one doesn't come as much of a surprise,
Speaker 4: but communication is key, and we can see the effect
Speaker 4: that different types of communication or different messaging has had
Speaker 4: on the spread of the virus by comparing, for instance,
Speaker 4: places that issued a mask mandate compared to those that
Speaker 4: did not. Early on, messaging about the pandemic should have
Speaker 4: included things like, hey, this is going to take a
Speaker 4: while to get under control, and we need community based
Speaker 4: efforts for masking, distancing and limiting at risk activities. And crucially,
Speaker 4: guidance is likely to change as we learn more about
Speaker 4: the virus in its transmission. Yeah, and I liked that.
Speaker 6: Last point especially.
Speaker 4: I thought it was super important because when we change
Speaker 4: our policies or practices based on new information that we receive,
Speaker 4: that means science is working. That's what is supposed to
Speaker 4: happen in life. When you're presented with new information, you adapt,
Speaker 4: you incorporate that YEA like science is happening in real time,
Speaker 4: and it's frustrating and it's kind of confusing, But we
Speaker 4: are putting into place the policies and practices that we
Speaker 4: believe are best at the time, based on the information
Speaker 4: and knowledge we have at that time exactly. And so
Speaker 4: now what we need to do is focus on presenting
Speaker 4: this information about control about.
Speaker 6: Individual and community.
Speaker 4: Level practices in a pragmatic way. So there have been
Speaker 4: recently comparisons about abstinence only sex education and some of
Speaker 4: the messaging regarding COVID nineteen where it's like, we know
Speaker 4: that abstinence only sex ad doesn't work, and so we
Speaker 4: need to focus on explaining the science behind why these
Speaker 4: control measures work and focus on risk reduction rather than
Speaker 4: risk elimination and endorse behaviors or practices that people can
Speaker 4: reasonably incorporate into their lives. And globally, what we have
Speaker 4: seen is that countries that promoted a pro science message
Speaker 4: and pushed for public understanding of how the virus is
Speaker 4: transmitted and why control measures work have fared much better
Speaker 4: than other countries like the US, which presented this false
Speaker 4: dichotomy of public health versus the economy, for example. So
Speaker 4: it's definitely, definitely way pastime for a big pivot here
Speaker 4: in messaging if we want to slow this virus from
Speaker 4: its current breakneck speed.
Speaker 5: Absolutely number two masks. Masks are one of these really
Speaker 5: great examples of how guidance has changed as this pandemic
Speaker 5: has continued and as we have learned more about the
Speaker 5: science behind masking. We have learned that masks are hugely
Speaker 5: important and slowing community transmission of the virus, and that
Speaker 5: wearing a mask not only protects those around the mask wear,
Speaker 5: but that they also provide at least some degree of
Speaker 5: protection to people wearing them, which is pretty new information.
Speaker 5: Another thing we've learned regarding masks is that not all
Speaker 5: masks are the same. Of course, the N ninety fives
Speaker 5: and respirators are going to provide the highest degree of protection,
Speaker 5: but those are reserved for healthcare workers, as they should
Speaker 5: be because they're doing aerosol generating procedures for example. Next
Speaker 5: up are the K and ninety fives, which are pretty good,
Speaker 5: but if you buy them, check the manufacturer's details to
Speaker 5: make sure that you have a legit one because there's
Speaker 5: false ones out there. And surgical masks, the kN ninety
Speaker 5: fives and surgical masks are more effective than regular cloth
Speaker 5: masks in reducing outward emission of viral particles, but even
Speaker 5: a cloth mask still does work, especially multi layer ones.
Speaker 5: What's really key about the effectiveness of all of these masks, though,
Speaker 5: is that they fit your face and you're wearing them properly.
Speaker 6: Don't let that nose hang out, please.
Speaker 5: Adjustable ear loops or a wied nose piece tend to
Speaker 5: be really great for making sure that they actually fit
Speaker 5: on my face, for example. Another great thing about cloth
Speaker 5: masks is that they're washable, which means they don't have
Speaker 5: to be thrown away, but also means that you should
Speaker 5: wash them after you wear them. Yep, and exhaust valves
Speaker 5: essentially defeat the purpose of wearing a mask.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And most importantly, we said this in even one
Speaker 5: of our regular season episodes. Masks aren't a political statement.
Speaker 5: They're a public health strategy and they work.
Speaker 6: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, Yeah and yep.
Speaker 4: Number three strategies for risk prevention are additive, and no
Speaker 4: single strategy works completely and perfectly.
Speaker 6: Yep.
Speaker 4: If it did, we would have implemented it months ago,
Speaker 4: and we wouldn't be in a position that we are today.
Speaker 4: You may have seen the Swiss cheese approach that doctor
Speaker 4: pepesc mentioned a few times drawn out, but it goes
Speaker 4: something like this. You can think of each strategy as
Speaker 4: a piece of Swiss cheese.
Speaker 6: It's got holes.
Speaker 4: Also, I wonder is it justin in the US that
Speaker 4: it's called Swiss cheese.
Speaker 9: Oh, good question, like Yarlsburg.
Speaker 5: No, that's a different kind of cheese.
Speaker 6: So basically what we think of is Swiss cheese. It's
Speaker 6: a slice of you know, square.
Speaker 4: Cheese, and it's got a bunch of holes is in it.
Speaker 4: So imagine that Swiss cheese anyway. For example, masking is
Speaker 4: one strategy, one piece of Swiss cheese. It helps to
Speaker 4: a degree, but it still has those holes in it.
Speaker 4: It's still imperfect, and in those holes the virus can
Speaker 4: pass through and still infect you. And so what you
Speaker 4: do is you add another layer of Swiss cheese social distancing,
Speaker 4: which also has holes in it. But together with masks,
Speaker 4: you've got two layers. And so you add another layer
Speaker 4: hand hygiene, et cetera, et cetera. And so because no
Speaker 4: two pieces of Swiss cheese look exactly alike, like snowflakes.
Speaker 4: As you layer these pieces of Swiss cheese together, you
Speaker 4: eventually get to a very very minuscule risk of transmission.
Speaker 4: All of those holes end up overlapping with pieces of
Speaker 4: intact cheese. I guess you could say, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 4: there are personal strategies we can use. Individual actions we
Speaker 4: can take like the distancing and masking and washing our hands,
Speaker 4: but also community strategies like testing, contact tracing, government support
Speaker 4: and messaging surrounding the virus and eventually vaccines. These strategies
Speaker 4: are additive. We need them all in order to reach
Speaker 4: are risks of transmission.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's I feel like a big one. It's not
Speaker 5: all or nothing. Speaking of all or nothing, number four,
Speaker 5: lockdowns are not binary. They're not all or nothing either.
Speaker 5: I think early on in the pandemic some places took
Speaker 5: a very all or nothing approach, and we've seen the
Speaker 5: effects that that has had on everything from the economy
Speaker 5: to our collective mental health. And now especially that we
Speaker 5: know more about the ways that the virus is transmitted,
Speaker 5: there can and really should be more nuanced in our
Speaker 5: policies and strategies. So instead of shutting everything down everywhere,
Speaker 5: we can focus on the areas of high transmission, or
Speaker 5: issue better guidelines like we already mentioned on how to
Speaker 5: operate safely in a very pragmatic way. For example, we
Speaker 5: know that restaurants and bars are areas of high risk,
Speaker 5: but schools are maybe less risky for transmission than we
Speaker 5: previously thought. So targeted shutdowns and strategies can take into
Speaker 5: account not only things like percent positivity in an area
Speaker 5: and available hospital beds, but can also be location or
Speaker 5: activity specific instead of lockdown versus normal pre COVID activities.
Speaker 5: But we need public support for any interventions to be successful,
Speaker 5: and that means I feel like we can't stress number
Speaker 5: one enough. Communication is key. Guidance has and will continue
Speaker 5: to change as we learn more and as this pandemic
Speaker 5: continues to progress, and it is good for our guidance
Speaker 5: and strategies to shift as we continue to learn more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and number five, our last point is that this
Speaker 4: will all end eventually. Really it will, but it's not
Speaker 4: going to be anytime soon. COVID nineteen has taken millions
Speaker 4: of lives already and no single intervention, not even a vaccine,
Speaker 4: we'll stop it tomorrow or the next day, or even
Speaker 4: in a week COVID fatigue is very very real and
Speaker 4: it's something that we are all experiencing to one degree
Speaker 4: or another.
Speaker 6: So we have to find.
Speaker 4: Ways to continue to reduce our risk.
Speaker 6: While maintaining sanity.
Speaker 4: And this might look different for each of us, but
Speaker 4: taking a risk mitigation approach is key rather than just
Speaker 4: giving up and assuming we are all going to get
Speaker 4: infected or worse, pretending that it's not real, it is very,
Speaker 4: very very real. We can all continue to use a
Speaker 4: combination of strategies masks, social distancing, staying home when we can,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, as best as we are able
Speaker 4: to continue reducing our individual risks while flattening that curve
Speaker 4: of community transmission. There is a light at the end
Speaker 4: of the tunnel. We're just still in that dang tunnel
Speaker 4: for the time being.
Speaker 5: It's a long tunnel and it's much longer than we wanted.
Speaker 6: It to be. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5: It's a very dark tunnel.
Speaker 6: It's a very dark tunnel.
Speaker 3: It's a very dark tunnel.
Speaker 6: Well, but it's.
Speaker 5: Not like the minds of Maria, Like I.
Speaker 6: Mean, no, it is.
Speaker 4: It is not as dark as the minds of Maria.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So with that, with that we would like to thank
Speaker 4: doctor Saskia Pipescu once again for taking the time to
Speaker 4: chat with us.
Speaker 6: We had such a great.
Speaker 4: Time, really, and we are going to continue to be
Speaker 4: salty about not being invited to the Zoom Happy Hour.
Speaker 5: It's fine, we understand, we understand.
Speaker 4: Yes. Anyways, anyways, keep an ear out, keep an eye
Speaker 4: out for more episodes of these coming your way. As
Speaker 4: we mentioned, they're not going to be on a regular
Speaker 4: schedule format and so please do add us on social
Speaker 4: media or subscribe to us on your podcatcher so that
Speaker 4: you don't miss an episode. And we promise a vaccines
Speaker 4: episode is upcoming, and we really hope to answer all
Speaker 4: of your questions regarding the COVID vaccines that have been
Speaker 4: all over the news lately.
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely, thank you to Bloodmobile for providing the music
Speaker 5: for this episode and all of our episodes.
Speaker 6: And thank you to you listeners for listening. Again.
Speaker 4: Feel free to reach out with any questions suggestions, don't
Speaker 4: forget to fill out the first hand account if you
Speaker 4: are so inclined, and until next time, wash your hands.
Speaker 9: You've failed the animals
Speaker 5: U