WEBVTT - COVID-19 Chapter 12: Control, Take 2 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.520 My name is Andrew. I live in Pennsylvania and I've 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.680 been a registered nurse for about four and a half years. 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.920 I work on a respiratory focused I see you, and 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:12.039 shortly after the pandemic hit we became the designated COVID 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.280 unit for the hospital. We saw many patients, but one 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.079 question always hovered in our minds. Why do some people 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.040 get it worse than others. This was never more poignant 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:22.759 than when we had a husband and wife couple on 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.759 our floor. Each patient on my unit has a single 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.240 room with no roommate, but we had these two patients 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.400 visit each other for as long as possible every day, 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:34.479 coordinating with respiratory physical therapy or technical partners and our 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.840 doctors to make it happen. Their status ebbed and flowed 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.560 for quite a while, but eventually, on one really tough 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.080 tape for the staff and obviously the patient's, a decision 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:45.479 was made to put the husband on what we call 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.880 comfort measures only, where we switch our goal from treating 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.680 the disease to treating the symptoms and making the patient comfortable, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.880 and we removed the high flow oxygen that was keeping 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.080 him alive. His wife was wheeled into his room hooked 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.000 up to her own high flow oxygen the whole time, 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.319 and she held his hand while he passed. She survived 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.840 and transferred out of our unit a while later. On 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.080 a day previously where I had been taking care of her, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.240 she had told me that the only thing she wanted 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:14.080 was for both of them to have the same outcome, 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.520 either both live or both die, and COVID decided differently. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.520 My name is Heather. I work in theater and film 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.560 and TV as a costume designer and assistant costume designer 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.800 in New York and across the country, where I did 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.600 every single arch job I know, I've stopped due to COVID. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.399 New York is an expensive place to live. I personally 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.440 had to leave and move my whole life into a 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.520 storage unit. I'm lucky and I'm able to live with 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.720 friends in DC. Everyone I work with a suffering. Many. 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.800 Many of my friends and coworkers got sick very early 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.480 in the pandemic. Some world told not to get tested 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.680 because there were not enough tests. Everyone has been watching 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.040 their bank account's strain with very little possible work on 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.680 the horizon. Recently, some work has restarted in TV and film. However, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.640 it's not enough work for everyone to get back at it, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.160 not to mention that TV and film is an incredibly 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.080 exhausting experience at its best of times, and now, with 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:14.400 limited contact with coworkers, isolated lunchhowers and pod work groups, 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.160 much of the joys of the job are gone. All 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.640 socializing and most of the collaboration, the heart of arts 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.320 work has been restricted. It's also not a guaranteed safe space. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.880 You don't have a lot of space between you and 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.000 five hundred background actors. It's not just your personal health 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.399 you have to worry about. It's your family and your neighbors. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.960 It's a dense city that takes its civic duties seriously. 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:41.680 No one wants to be part of the spread, But 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.720 how can we earn our rent money? Theater, my primary 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.840 source of work, is still completely gone. Broadway is dark. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.240 All of the beautiful and kind people I work with 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.720 on stage and backstage are living on pennies and hoping 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.840 for some kind of magic to restore our safest and 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.280 most sacred space, the art. It's our local, national, and 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:06.360 international community about coming together and telling the truth, whether 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:11.200 it's funny, serious, secary, or satirical. Bearing witness to someone's 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.480 truth is essential to our human condition. How much TV 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.480 have you binged? How much music have you listened to? 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.360 How much has it helped to soothe your anxiety and 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.480 lift you out of your depression? Not just during this 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:31.600 pandemic but always. The arts affects you every day. We 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.040 want to come back. Often our industry is painted as worthless. However, 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.119 Winston Churchill himself said when asked if he should cut 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.480 arts funding during World War Two, If we cut the arts, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.240 then what are we fighting for? We want to work. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.720 We want to do it safely for ourselves, our loved ones, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.960 and our local and global communities. 0:03:53.840 --> 0:04:30.920 Thank you. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:42.200 Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and I'm Aaron Allman. Updyke and 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.160 this is this podcast will kill you. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:49.359 Yay, Welcome back to our Anatomy of a Pandemic series. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.600 Yes, it has been nearly nine months. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.479 Is that right that since. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.040 We like first did that big drop of episodes. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.600 Wow. Yeah, a lot has happened in that time period, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.640 so much so we thought that for a number of 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.599 different reasons, it's about time for an update. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:09.880 Yeah. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.240 So, I think like reason number one is that we've 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:18.360 learned so much more about SARS Kobe two, the disease 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.080 that it causes, how it's transmitted, and the steps that 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.440 we have or have not taken that seem to best 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:26.640 control it's spread. 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:27.800 Yeah. 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.120 The second reason is that right now, especially cases are 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.560 enormously and terrifyingly on the rise. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:38.600 Yes they are. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:43.960 And the third reason is that the mistrust in science 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.800 and the disinformation that has been spread by the Trump 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:54.960 administration and some other elected officials has already done unfathomable damage. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.680 And so you know, let's inject a bit of rational, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.680 science based thinking back into our lives. 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.560 That's let's do that. I think that sounds really great, 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.600 aren Yeah. For this new batch of episodes, we'll be 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.359 revisiting some of the topics that we covered earlier this year, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:18.680 including aspects of the disease virology, the epidemiological characteristics, and 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.800 of course the one that everyone wants to know about, vaccines. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:24.640 Yes, vaccines. 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.040 But we want to get these episodes to you as 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.520 fast as we can get them ready, which means that 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.360 the schedule for their release might look a bit wonky. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.359 So definitely subscribe to us through your podcast app and 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.520 on social media to see when we drop a new 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:40.719 episode exactly. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.920 You don't want to miss anything, and if there are 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.599 additional aspects that you'd like to see us cover, or 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.920 particular questions that you have, feel free to send them 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.200 to our email This Podcast will kill You at gmail 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.600 dot com or through the contact us form on our 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.480 website This Podcast will kill You dot Com. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.960 And of course we are still soliciting first hand account 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.720 for these episodes, so if you would like to share 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.359 your story, please head to our website and click on 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.599 the COVID nineteen first hand tab, which will take you 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.720 to a Google form that you can fill out. And 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.840 also a huge thank you to everyone who has already 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.080 filled out this form and shared your stories with us. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.120 We are honored to get to read them or hear 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.520 them and wish that we could share every single one. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.520 Yeah, as with our earlier Anatomy of a Pandemic series, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.840 these episodes are not going to replace our normal season episodes, 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.440 which will still be coming out every other Tuesday like 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.119 they always do, and on those episodes, we'll be keeping 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.720 the COVID talk to a minimum as much as we can, 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.320 because we know that sometimes an escape from the COVID 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.440 reality is necessary for our collective mental health. 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:48.880 Absolutely. 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:54.960 So okay, now onto the important bits. Aaron, what are 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:56.840 we drinking this episode, Well. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.280 Of course we're drinking QUARANTINEY twelve. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:02.680 Such a descriptive name. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.720 I love it, such clever Quarantini names for these COVID episodes. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.720 I mean, I'm actually secretly very glad that we did 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.840 not decide to get like super punny and like we. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.800 Would have had to stop making episodes quite honestly. 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:17.040 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.800 So what is in the Quarantine E twelve? 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.520 It's basically a Campari sprits Oh so good. 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.680 I mean, you could use aperal if you prefer. I 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.840 like the bitterness of Campari me too. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.040 Plus I happen to have it and I don't have Apperal. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.000 Yeah, I feel like I use Campari much more in 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.680 other drinks as well, So I always have Campari. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.760 I rarely have apperl yep anyway, exactly. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:46.240 Anyways, so onto what we are covering this episode. This episode, 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.640 we're talking all about control, as in, how do we 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.720 control the spread of this virus? But most of that 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.280 we already know, and we have known. 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.160 It since the beginning of this pandemic. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.520 So what we really wanted to get at in this 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.319 episode is what we have learned works and what maybe 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.839 doesn't work as well as we thought, or isn't as 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:10.360 important nine months into this thing, because we've learned a 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.840 heck of a lot, and some of that knowledge, like 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.000 the benefits of wearing masks, both for those around the 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.240 mask wearer as well as the mask wearer themselves, has 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.000 played a large role in the shifting guidelines that we've 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.400 seen from public health departments. Controlling the spread of this 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.440 virus takes action at both the individual as well as 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.720 the regional or community level, and so in this episode, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:33.920 we wanted to examine both what we can do to 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.240 protect ourselves and those around us from this disease, as 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.440 well as understand why certain restrictions are being put into 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.520 place as this pandemic surges. 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.559 Yeah, for this episode, we were so lucky to chat 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.920 with doctor Saskia Popescu, who answered our many many questions 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.880 about control and also she was just a phenomenally fun 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.920 person to get to chat with and interview. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.400 It was like such a fun this is such a 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.640 great like, this is such a great start to our Friday, 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:04.400 no wonderful. 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.360 Well and also she mentioned a Zoom happy hour and 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.960 I'm not really jealous that we're not invited, but anyways, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:15.440 so anyways, We recorded this interview on Friday, December fourth, 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.680 so keep that in mind whenever we're talking numbers. Okay, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.679 we will let her introduce herself and dive into the 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.319 interview right after this break. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.040 So my name is Oskia Propescu. 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.280 I'm an infectious disease epidemiologist, an infection preventionist, and i 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.040 am an assistant professor of biodefense at your Mason University. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:07.240 Awesome, excellent. So our first question for you is kind 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.440 of we're now what over eight months, I think, into 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.400 this pandemic, and we've learned a lot about different control 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.120 measures for preventing the spread of this virus, like mask wearing, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.080 that indoor dining needs to be restricted, contact tracing, all 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.520 these different things. So we wanted to first talk to 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.680 you about, like the policies at the regional or statewide 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.439 level that seem to actually be the most effective at 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.120 reducing transmission. What have we seen so far that like 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:35.840 really works well. 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.080 We've seen in several states that widespread mask mandates have 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.520 actually made a considerable difference, but those have also really 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.680 come with conservative efforts to emphasize distancing, reduce the number 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.000 of people indoors and provide more accessible testing. So on 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.520 a national level, though, I think there's been more attention 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.960 from the CDC on masking more recently. They emphasize that 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.160 it does protect the person wearing it and not just 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.640 those around you, but also on limiting gathering. So if 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.880 you look at California, they have a rule about not 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.120 gathering beyond ten people. But I think what we've really 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.080 learned in all of this is that there's no single strategy. 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.480 Really we have to take communication above and beyond and 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.880 focus on risk reduction being additive that Swiss Cheese approach, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.960 because early on we noticed that when we were emphasizing 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.720 six feet, people really got stuck on that nuanced thing 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.000 and they thought that's beyond six feet. If you were 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.240 a six feet and two inches, it was this almost 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.480 invisible force field. So we really learned a lot about 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.640 communication and that and you'll see that a bit reflected 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.600 in the policies. But then the truth is it's so 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.920 varied by states in the United States. I mean, we 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.199 really do see some states that have taken this above 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.160 and beyond, like Washington State, Washington d C. Even in 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.120 New York. But then you have the Florida governor who 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.520 extended his order that essentially barred towns, cities, and counties 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.880 from enforcing local mask mandates. In Arizona, where I'm from, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.000 the governor issue very little state efforts and only allowed 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.040 local leaders to implement mask mandates this summer when we 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.160 were starting to really see a surge. So to be 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.800 quite honest, there's not a lot of national control measures 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.560 outside of the guidance the CDC is emphasizing, and in 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.920 many ways, the national approaches kind of fizzled out really 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.240 a way to summer, leaving the onus on local leaders. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:20.760 Yeah. 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.640 Absolutely, And I think it's it's been interesting to see 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.320 sort of the outcome of that. I think I saw 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.120 a report about I can't remember which state, but the 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.960 state had different county by county measures for mask mandates. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:35.000 It was Kansas. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:35.760 It was it Kansas. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.680 Yeah, uh huh yeah, and the counties that had mask 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.920 mandates had the lower infection prevalence or lower infection incidents 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:46.960 than the counties that had. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.520 No mask mandates. And it's like, well, of course, but you. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.680 Know, how does this translate into actually, like, you know, 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:55.760 increasing mass mandates overall? 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.199 But anyway, yeah, no, I. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.520 Mean in that Kansas example, I think was so spot 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.920 on because the counties that had no mask mandates saw 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.240 a one hundred percent increase in cases, and I think 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.360 that's such a telling sign of the importance of masking. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.319 But I know for Arizona, you know, there was an 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.079 MMWR that came out and you really focused on masking, 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:16.280 but it was like, well, we did all of these 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.600 other things. So it's really important that we don't just 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.920 focus on one intervention, because I think that was the 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.000 mistake we made very early on, like just masking or 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:30.080 just distancing, and that's not given people the awareness and 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.760 the understanding of how the transmission dynamics work. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.960 That's a really good point. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:40.440 So here in the US, on the national scale, we've 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.840 seen no clear, consistent you know, not only policies, but 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.320 even like messaging pro science messaging from Donald Trump that 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.200 would have led to perhaps a reduction rather than an 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.200 increase in cases, which is what we've seen. 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.440 So playing a bit with hypotheticals, how. 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.760 Do you think something like a national mask mandate or 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.160 even just fact based rational messaging might have changed the 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:08.400 course of the pandemic. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.080 Truly, I believe this would have made a huge effort 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.040 the lack of pro science leadership and combative approaches to 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.240 those recommendations coming from local leaders or even public health 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.520 figures like doctor Fauci really promoted partisanship within control measures 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.640 and masks should not be a political statement their public 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.280 health strategy. So had we emphasized some things earlier on 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:31.480 like this is going to take a while to get 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.680 under control, guidance will likely change as the science improves, 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.640 and that we need community based efforts for masking, distancing, 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.840 limiting at risk activities, these things would have likely changed course. 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.200 I also think national efforts to enhance public health communication 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.920 would have really been impacting and could have combated that 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.800 false dichotomy of public health versus the economy or the 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.760 US versus the WHO. So when we focus on support 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.720 services for people to stay home and the rational messaging 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.080 that really emphasizes harm reduction and reduce a stigma and 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.360 provides pragmatic guidance, we can really make a different. So 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.840 what we are seeing with President elect Biden and Vice 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:12.480 President elect Haris is that emphasis on adequate communications, science 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.160 based messaging and masking mandates. I think it was proposed 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.480 for about one hundred days really to kind of curtail. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.080 What we're seeing is uncontrolled transmission right now. So we 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.960 need not just fact based, but rational, pragmatic. How can 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.480 you translate this to people to get them to understand 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:29.680 why it's important for them? 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:30.400 You know, you can't just. 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.840 Talk at people, you have to talk with them, And 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.120 I think that's a huge failure we've had in the US. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.240 Oh Man, Yeah, I love too what you said about 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.640 like telling people that guidance might change. I think that 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.080 that's been a really big sticking point for a lot 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.080 of people where they just kind of can't get over 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.280 how much things have changed as we've learned more. And 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.400 I think that that's something that like part of the 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.880 scientific process that people just haven't seen play out in 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:54.800 real time before. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.160 No I mean, if you think about it, this is 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.280 outside of you know, SARS, Kobe and Mers. This is 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.679 really one of the first large scale I mean, obviously 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.359 it's a pandemic, but it's the first novel disease we've 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.560 really had to face in the US. Right Ebola in 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.359 twenty fourteen. We know we know how to handle ebola. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.119 We might not be good at it, but we know 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.840 what to do. This is so novel, and I keep 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.520 reminding people, you know, we identified this in January, you know, 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.560 late December, early January, so we're not even a year out. 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.960 And sure the mask expectations were different in March than 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.159 they are now, but that's because we're getting better. In 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.960 my opinion, I want the evolution of guidance that means 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.080 we are learning more, we're getting better. So I always 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.760 tell people lean into those changes because that means we're 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.480 getting better at control mechanisms. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.680 Absolutely. Yeah. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.119 So kind of looking more globally, there's been a large 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.919 amount of variation in the way that different countries have 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.600 handled this pandemic and kind of responded. Could you highlight 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.280 some of the patterns in either the policies or the 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.960 practices of countries where COVID nineteen has been pretty well 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.840 managed in your opinion, like, what are some other places 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:06.800 doing better than us? 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:07.840 Yeah? 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.000 So I think the shining example we've seen is really 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:15.160 New Zealand. They have taken very early on a pro 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:21.359 science message that explained what transmission looked like, what was 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.280 high risk, and they really prioritized contact tracing. So I 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.640 was on a call when they were recently sharing how 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:32.000 a single case was identified and how rapidly contact tracing 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.399 occurred and how everybody was notified and they provided support 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.840 services so people could go to a hotel, they had 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.240 areas where they could stay if they were supposed to 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.960 be in quarantine. So I think we've learned a lot 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.520 in that approach, where it's not just as simple as 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.560 throwing a bunch of money at testing and in you know, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:55.080 healthcare services. We know that's really important. But countries like Germany, 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.720 New Zealand, you know, I think really. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.680 Have taught us a lot. And there's a lot that. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.640 Have done, you know, really really amazing work, But more 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.280 and more I find those that emphasized early communication that 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.520 was simple and understandable to the public really did better. 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.520 Japan did really amazing early on billboards, I think about 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.840 things to avoid, and that was crowded areas, indoor spaces, 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.240 you know, very simple messaging, but got the point across. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:27.639 And I think those measures have been such role models 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.840 for us to learn from that we have to invest 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.959 in communication to the public. Because we can ramp up 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.360 testing all we want, we can buy more ventilators all 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.720 we want, but if the general public doesn't understand how 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.680 transmission works and what they need to do to stay safe, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.480 then we failed them. I mean, the simple messaging of 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:49.480 mask up or stay home is very limited, right, you know, 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.280 and I think that was something that we've really struggled 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:53.000 with in the US. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:58.359 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. So moving now from sort of this 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.720 regional practices and and measures or nationwide practices and measures 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.800 to the individual things that we can do for ourselves 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.840 or we can put into place to help both protect 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.639 ourselves and those around us. What are some of the 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.119 things that have shown to be the most effective or 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.119 that you think might be the most effective. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.280 Well, we're in a really pivotal time right now with 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.000 the state of the pandemic in the US. You know, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.119 we're seeing the highest case counts and hospitalizations ever coupled 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.040 with the winter months and the holidays. But what we 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.720 do know is that things like masking and distancing hand 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.080 hygiene and avoided crowded and especially indoor spaces are important. 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.600 But honestly, what I think is the most important is 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.000 being cognizant that risk reduction is really additive. And as 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.200 we discussed earlier, the studies in Kansas and even Arizona's 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.800 shown a lot of impact on masking, But those requirements 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.320 also came with a lot of concerted community education and awareness, 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:52.920 but more so it's not just one thing, it's all 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.040 of them. So just like testing before a flight is helpful, 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.840 but it doesn't eliminate risk. So more and more with 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.840 the amount of transmission in the community, I really just 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.000 encourage people to try and stay home when they can, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.320 but avoid those high risk activities or areas like bars 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.240 and indoor dining gatherings where there's a lot of people. 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.399 But I try to really emphasize that Swiss cheeze approach, 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.040 that additive measure to control efforts, because I have found 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:18.879 that when we say, well, you need to wear a 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.760 mask when you're outside your house outdoors is protective, people think, well, 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.399 if I'm outdoors and you know, I'm around other people, 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.359 but I'm outdoors, so that's helpful, so I don't need 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.119 to wear a mask. And we know that if you 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.760 are within close contact of people outside your household, even 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:35.840 if you're outdoors, you still need to be wearing a mask. 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.840 So what I have really found is that discussing that 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.480 additive approach has been the most helpful, and that it's 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.280 not just the masking, it's not just the distancing and 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.159 trying to be outdoors and the hand hygiene. It's all 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:50.919 of those things together because all of them, you know, 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.800 work together. One is imperfect, but together they help reduce risk. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.159 Nothing is going to eliminate risk right now, So you know, 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:00.640 how can we give people the tools to think critically 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:01.879 and make informed decisions? 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:03.680 Absolutely? 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.200 Yeah, if we could focus a little bit on masks, 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.720