WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend: August 21st, 2026 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:07.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.959 This is Bloomberg Business Week, Daily reporting from the magazine 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.599 that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.520 and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business finance 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.520 and tech news as it happens. Bloomberg Business Weekdaily with 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.320 Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.600 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:36.000 Tim is off well. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:36.400 This week. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.440 Traders took stock after US Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant announced 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.000 a surprise increase in long term bond buybacks to stemmaize 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.199 in yields that had taken them to a near two 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.840 decade high. Analys have warned the plan maybe a short 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.440 term fix, giving concerns about large fiscal deficits and oil 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:58.000 driven inflation. Also a concern US government debt. We got 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.600 an update on that this week, coming in at forty 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:05.360 trillion dollars. We also got retail earnings, Continued uncertainty over 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.399 the US war in Iran, a softening trades dance between 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.880 the US and Canada, and the latest FOMC minutes showing 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.080 some hawkish sentiment that could re energize Betts for a 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.520 rate hike come September. All ahead of remarks this coming 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.080 week from FED Chairman Kevin worsh at the annual Jackson 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.760 Hole Symposium. His lack of guidance on when or whether 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.959 the Central Bank will adjust rates has added to uncertainty 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.319 over the policy outlook, as always the latest one. All 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.240 of this and more can be found on the Bloomberg 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.240 terminal end at Bloomberg dot com. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:37.759 Now. 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:39.759 One of the things we love to do is give 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.000 a topic, an individual, a leader, a market watcher an 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.680 extended amount of time to talk with us. We learn 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.600 more we hope you do as well. So last week 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.680 we did this on the US's latest push to secure 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.760 rare earths and critical minerals. This week we feature one 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.720 of the most influential and frequently cited economists in the world. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.320 We are talking about Nobel laureate and MIT professor Drone Asamoglu. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.280 Our conversation coincided with his new book, What Happened to 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.840 Liberal Democracy? Remaking up Politics of Shared Prosperity. He joins 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.519 us in just a moment that chat is chock full 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.160 of topics for weekend discussions, and since it is the weekend, 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.480 and because we believe in mixing thoughtful discussions with some fun, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:24.880 we are going to wrap up with the founder of 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.000 HSP Brands on how gen Z is impacting the cocktail Hour. 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.200 All right, let's get to it, and let's begin with 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:36.000 one important question. What happened to liberal democracy? That is 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.440 what Nobel Laureate economist and MIT professor Drone Asamoglu explores 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.320 in his latest book, aptly named What Happened to Liberal Democracy? 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:49.760 Remaking a politics of shared prosperity. He argues that liberalism 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.240 is dying primarily of self inflicted wounds. His solution what 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:58.200 he calls working class liberalism. He began talking with Tim 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.000 and me about the initial success the idea. 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.120 I think liberal democracy is one of the greatest achievements 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:12.680 we've had from our ape beginnings and lives in very 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:18.560 unequal circumstances, in very uncertain existence mired by violence. Today 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.400 we live in very complex societies, open to ideas, with 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:26.440 lots of individual freedom. People participate in politics peacefully, reach compromise, 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:31.119 sometimes consensus, and moreover, we get lots of things from 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.880 the government, including our ability to express our voice. That 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.280 is an amazing achievement, and we are, I think, at 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.080 the cusp of losing it. Liberal democracy, which still in 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:46.000 my mind is the best framework definitely something we very 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.720 much need for the future, is in crisis after decades 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.000 and decades of actually serving us quite well. So we 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.200 have to understand that crisis and we have to rebuild 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.160 liberal democracy unless we risk we want to risk losing it. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.560 We're going to talk about how you think we can 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.000 rebuild it, but I want to just get some parameters 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.800 set here and do some definitions, because early on in 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.400 your book you talk about the definition of liberalism and 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.000 how it means different things to different people depending on 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.000 where you live, the European view versus the American view. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.040 Just straighten that out for us right now before we 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:20.120 dive into this conversation. 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:25.159 Yeah, thanks, Tim, And that's very important. Liberalism has had 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.599 many meanings over the ages and today it's a big tent, 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.240 but at the core of it is a commitment to 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.760 protect individual liberties, also protect the weaker members of society, 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.120 and also a commitment to progress from which we all benefit. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:47.360 Those are the defining features of liberal ideas and they 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:52.119 have acted as a rallying cry for people to build 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.919 a better society. And the way that I define it 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:59.279 liberal democracy is the institutionalization of these ideas. It's a 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.479 it's carrying them to the actual practice of our lives, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.520 and it's been brilliantly successful in the grand scheme of things. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:14.039 We've had decades of very rapid growth under liberal democracy. 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.720 For the about four decades following World War Two. Those 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.719 were not just high growth periods, but they were periods 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.599 in which inequality was remaining stable or sometimes even declining. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:33.360 Every demographic group, men, women, by race, different education groups, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:38.040 they saw their earnings grow very rapidly. And you know, 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:44.440 always political disagreements were very important, but generally peacefully. Today, 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.400 if you look at the pictures, very different. Shared prosperity 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.159 doesn't work anymore. Inequality has increased a lot, but worse. 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.160 In the United States, We've seen about half of the 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:59.400 population without a college degree experience stagnant or declining wages 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.000 for about four decades, while productivity increase, while people with 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:10.320 college degrees postgraduate degrees improve their living standards significantly. And 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.040 when you ask Americans, they have such negative views of 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.480 democratic institutions, their trust in Congress, in the Supreme Court, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.479 and the presidencies. They are an all time law, the 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:28.200 countries polarized, and very concerningly, all Americans, but especially the young, 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.320 are much less willing to say that democracy is the 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.400 best form of government, and they're willing to experiment with 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:36.240 different ideas. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.839 There are we destined to come here. I think people 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:44.680 point fingers out a particular president or political figure, but 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.279 we were we destined to be here. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.839 I wouldn't say we're destined to be here, But I 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:54.520 would also not blame it on a particular president or 0:06:54.640 --> 0:07:00.279 particular set of choices that are us specific, because you 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:06.200 see very similar trends across many advanced nations and even 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.920 in the emerging world. So there are some commonalities there. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.200 So that's very important to get the diagnosis right so 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:13.520 that we know how to deal with it. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:15.720 You actually make the point early on, I mean, this 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.480 is the way your book begins, and Carol and I 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:18.880 were was struck by this because we hear a lot 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.800 about Victor orbon Now and the figure that he is 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.640 in Hungary. But you make the point that, look, this 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.640 is somebody who in the late eighties early nineties was 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.640 a very different leader and represented something very different, not 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.560 just for that country, but for Europe. 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.720 Absolutely absolutely, And I think it is sort of telling 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.360 of the arc of liberalism that he was the poster 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:51.120 child for liberty, for building democratic institutions and then he 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.560 turned his back on all of these ideas. You know, 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.400 the exact circumstances in Hungary, of course, are different. Post 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.960 transition societies had a lot of trump many of them 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.080 navigated them better than Hungary. But I think the issues 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.960 that we see in the United States have commonalities with Hungary, 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:10.760 but they have a lot of communalities with what's going 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.480 on in the UK and France, in Germany, in the 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:14.440 rest of Europe. 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.480 Is there anywhere where this is not happening right now 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.600 that you would hold up in twenty twenty six as 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.000 an ideal liberal democracy ideal? 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.320 Absolutely not. And I don't think if you ask me 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.680 what is an idea that a liberal democracy going back, No, 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:34.400 there isn't. That's liberalism is always an aspiring ideology and 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.199 liberal democracy is always a work in progress. But today 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.320 you see different degrees of crisis. And one place where 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.560 I would say the crisis is also showing up in 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.080 some ways, but in a less severe form in Switzerland. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.400 And one of the things about Switzerland is that it's 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.120 much more participatory. And you also see even today in 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.640 this polarized world that we live in where people shout 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.840 at each other, social media has really created a very 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:06.920 toxic ecosystem of exchange. You have recently experienced an amazing 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:12.120 achievement in Ireland in the context of this decision on 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.880 the referendum, which was based on citizens assemblies, building consensus, 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.600 changing people's minds, debating it for a long time, and 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.400 then putting it to vote for the people, where people 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.000 actually said this is what we want in two different referendums. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.040 So there are ways in which we can make this 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.640 work even today, but there is a challenge. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.040 There are challenges, and Tim and I both listened to 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.320 some different podcasters. When you did with I think James 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.120 Sanger of Harvard, that was really I said, what was 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:45.239 wonderful is it was a dialogue which is so refreshing. 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.600 The sense of community though, how important that is, And 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.360 you know, I think it might have been with mister Sayger. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.160 This concept of people or maybe living different worlds, completely 0:09:58.200 --> 0:09:59.160 separate worlds. 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.920 Absolutely, that's a problem. It's a big problem. But let's 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.400 go back to community. Because thank you for bringing it 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:11.640 down Carroll, community was quite important for liberal aspirations going 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.040 back several hundred years, and when you look at early 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.600 liberal democracy, communities played a very important role. One of 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:24.920 the very bad rock ideas of liberal democracy that there 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.240 should be self government people. It's not just that you 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.400 should be free to have thoughts, that you should also 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.360 be free to put them into practice. That means that 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.480 to have some control over your life. And it's not enough, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:39.720 or it's not even meaningful to say, oh, you can 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.520 achieve that by going to the polls once every four 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.320 years or five years and have a vote. No, that 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.200 starts with local associations. But the Talkville saw in the 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.720 United States more than two hundred years one and fifty 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.520 years ago, and he thought that was just so remarkable. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.280 It starts with local governments where people participate. It starts 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:01.320 with other organizations like labor unions were a very important 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.680 way for many working people to participate in self government. 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.440 And all of these you see they start at the 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.559 community level. But there's one thing something else, and then 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.440 you actually put your finger on that, Carol, which is 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.560 that when we have a debate, I think the best 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.920 way of ensuring that we're not just talking past each 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:24.640 other or we're not shouting at each other. Is that 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:30.840 we have some shared values, shared moral understanding, shared principles, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.280 and that again comes from communities and then emanates from 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.640 communities to the national level. So all of these are 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.319 very important. But liberal democracy over the last several decades 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.400 has also turned its back on communities. Communities have become 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.319 more segregated. There has been a deeper division in the 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.640 United States between say, not just Republican and Democrat, but 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.079 between more educated and less educated segments. Their values have diverged, 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.640 their networks have diverged, and everything that was a bit 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.240 of a like a melting pot is no longer. One 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.160 very important one that we actually often overlook is where 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.000 people work the sort of of course I'm exaggerating, but 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.440 the typical firm of the industrial age was like a 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.440 manufacturing plant, where you had managers, you had consultants, you 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.120 had engineers, you had white color workers, blue color worker, 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.320 custodial workers. So it was a real melting pot. Today, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.480 the image that you might have in your mind is 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.040 Google on the one hand and McDonald's on the other, 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.200 and complete divide in terms of not just income, education 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.640 and background on who works there and so we're not 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:45.480 getting that melting that will bring those shared principles together 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.199 on which we can then build something better. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.120 That was Drone smo Glue, economic Nobel Laureate and Institute 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.920 Professor in the Department of Economics at MIT. Coming up, 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.000 we'll have more with him, including how the digital technology 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.000 revolution unleashed a huge increase in inequality. You're listening to 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.640 Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:15.360 This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily with Carol Masser and 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.000 Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.679 We continue speaking with the author of What Happened to 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:26.240 Liberal Democracy? Remaking Up Politics of Shared Prosperity. It is 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.400 written by Drona Smoglu. He has Economic sciences Nobel laureate 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.840 an Institute professor in the Department of Economics at MIT. 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.480 This is actually a perfect question for a segue that 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.520 we wanted to get to and has to do with technology. 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.640 In your view of technology, could digital connectivity allow a 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.680 more direct democracy when moving slightly away from representative democracy 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.040 and to direct democracy help alleviate concerns from those who 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.280 are losing faith. So two different questions there. I wanted 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.760 to start with the technology one because you have some 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.480 really interesting views about technology's role in actually moving us 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:01.920 away from liberal democracy. 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.120 What do you think, Well, I mean, let me just 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.800 say that technology plays a central role in the book, 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:12.880 in several parts, but centrally in understanding how we transition 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.640 from an industrial economy to a post industrial economy. So 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.080 the Google McDonald's is just a symptom of something much 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.280 broader about how the economy is organized, and that was 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.960 a technological transition. Partly globalization played the role as well. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.440 But second, algorithms are so much more important today. They 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.600 in some domains actually rule our lives. So we have 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:41.160 to come to grips with information ecosystem, communication ecosystem created 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:47.600 by algorithms. Now, in both how digital technologies influence shared 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:53.240 prosperity and how algorithm influence our communication. I don't think 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:58.680 there is anything predetermined. Technology doesn't come with a pre 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.120 programmed thing that says I'm I'm going to create inequality, 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.280 I'm going to destroy communication. It's how we use technology, 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.320 how we define technology, how we develop it. And on 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.360 social media, I think it's very telling to go back 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.840 to how people were viewing it in the late nineteen 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.800 nineties early two thousands. Everybody thought, I mean almost everybody 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.320 thought that this was going to democratize communication. The Arab 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.160 spring was Facebook and Twitter in some places, the new 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.320 wikis were going to make information available and you know 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.600 those hopes. Okay, they turned out to be that, right, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.200 we can agree on that, but they weren't completely naive. 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.640 The reason why they weren't naive is because technology had 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:47.520 that capability. We could have built new communities for reliable information, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.800 to create new compromises, to find new bridging ways in 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.120 which we can bring ourselves together. But it turned out 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.920 that the key decisions that many companies made were not 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.480 about that. My Space, for example, one of the first 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.600 social media side, is a bit closer to that because 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:03.960 it brought communities together. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:05.760 Shout out to Tom MySpace. 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:12.280 Okay, fantastic, yes, But algorithmic feeds that essentially amplified the 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:17.200 most incendiary material, the one that gets views because it's extreme, 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.720 that angers the other side and motivates your side to 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.800 become even more vocal. Those are the kinds of things 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.920 that rise up in the algorithmic feed And on another part, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.400 they are the things that create envy and undergird mental 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.600 health problems. But all of them, you know, what they 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:38.200 also do. They take their attention towards social media communication 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.720 and as a result, Americans interact much less physically with 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.120 other people. They have fewer friends, fewer close friends. They 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:50.440 spend much less time going to bars, coffee shops. Nobody 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.120 calls anybody anymore, and that is very important because the 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.320 social networks that reform are messy. They teach us to 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.200 make compromises, and they us a lot of rich, contextual 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:03.520 information about our lives. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.200 Do you blame the tech CEOs who run those companies? 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:08.320 Oh, we might as well. Why not? 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:11.159 Well, because it is. 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.840 An interesting time where you are seeing lawsuits against social 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.760 media companies meta platforms. We keep referencing this in their 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.199 latest earnings. I think it was two billion dollars for 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.920 certain lawsuits and they said it was a material impact 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.280 on the company, and it's just the beginning of lawsuits 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.520 from our reporting team. But I do wonder what is 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.320 their responsibility? And this goes to you get into this too, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.480 like the people who run these firms, and they're very 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.959 wealthy and very influential, and I don't think I'm speaking 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:41.480 out of turn. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:42.760 And we talk about having. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.399 A seat at the table, at the political table. We don't. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.120 It's people with their deeper pockets. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.280 Well, you are very influential, but. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.880 Actually you are very but anyway, so, but like all 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:56.520 of this, of. 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.119 Course we all have responsibility. We all have responsibility if 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.120 democracy is in crisis, we are all responsible because democracy 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.960 requires active, vigilant, participating citizens. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.199 Why are why are people more active? 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.440 I think we took some of these things for granted. Okay, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:23.240 we've gone down the path of sort of easy sort 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:30.760 of life, and some of what democratic citizenship requires is messy. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.280 Some of the things that we should do in our 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.280 communities are costly. For example, giving blood. You know, you 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.240 get very little benefit from that other than the pride 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.840 that you're contributing to something. And people used to do 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.840 that much more and they do that much less. That's 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.520 just a symbolic thing that shows that if you don't 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.919 create the right narrative, the right sort of way of 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.720 drawing on our responsibilities, people are going to start withdrawing 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:58.000 a little bit, and then a little bit more, and 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.320 then a little bit more, and then the result because 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.000 we're not participating in communities and we're not participating to 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:03.960 defend democracy. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:09.440 But I can't help but think of the changing view 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.399 that Americans have about democracy in recent years. And I 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.200 think back to the Democratic National Convention in twenty twenty 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.679 four and the core message from Democrats and it was 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.120 I'll never forget this. I was watching this on TV. 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.639 I watched the Republican one as well, but they played 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.600 this video that was basically a highlight reel of January sixth, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.320 and it was you know, Carol and I were on 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.840 air covering January sixth when it happened. We were speaking 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.000 to our colleagues who were at the capital who were, 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.280 you know, felt under attack. And I remember watching that 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:49.000 and thinking, wow, you know, there's no way that Trump 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.120 is going to win this election because Americans are being reminded. 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:53.720 Of this right right. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.479 But it's like January six never happened to so many people, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:03.480 including lom who stand side by side with the president 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.520 and at one point were very critical of him. And 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.520 I'm just curious, is like, does that stuff not matter 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:12.320 in today's. 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.320 Age or does it or does that really matter to 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.320 show that there are people who somehow feel like I 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:20.400 don't have representation. 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:22.119 I'm looking for another way. I don't know if that's. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.000 Part of well, I mean, I think look, it also 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.879 gets to the court and we'll talk about economics. But 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.840 it's like, obviously it was what voters felt like, you know, 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.480 they were driven by economic issues at the polls, not 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:33.439 democracy issues. 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.360 I think they were driven by motivated by economic issues, 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.360 and they were also reacting to Biden's presidency that they 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.960 thought in some ways didn't work very well. And I 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:49.080 think part of the reason why January sixth was not 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.240 front and center, it's cognitive dissonance. Once they said they 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.280 were going to vote for the Republican alternative because we 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.920 want to vote against the establishment, and right now the 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.960 establishment is by and the left, you know, is always 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.800 more at the center of liberal democracy because it was 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.359 you know, things like the new Deliberalism or the social 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.200 democracy in Europe that led the charge. So it's more 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.640 associated with establishment. So anti establishment feeling turns against that, 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.000 and then cognitive dissonance. I don't want to hold two 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:25.040 conflicting thoughts in my mind. I'm going to support Trump, well, 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:29.560 then I'll downplay January sixth. But the media ecosystem played 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.520 a very important role. If the media ecosystem was integrated, yeah, 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.560 and the communities were integrated, that would be much harder 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.600 because your brother you wouldn't be fighting with your brother, 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.960 and he would remind you, look, don't you forget January sixth. 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.640 But today, either in your community there is nobody who 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.320 has an opposite view to yours, or if they do, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.280 the situation has become so polarized that you don't listen 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.120 to them because you think of them as the enemy, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.800 even when they are your brother. And that's really not 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.119 very productive. But that's in again an ecosystem that we've created. 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.000 We don't need to be in that ecosystem. 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:06.520 Do you think. 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:08.600 And we're going to take a break and then come 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.040 back and talk some more. In terms of social media companies, 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.720 technology companies, there needs to be some kind of greater 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.880 regulation over them. In terms of these platforms because they 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:22.040 are so influential. 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:29.520 Yes, absolutely, So let's take a step back. And democracy 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.520 needs citizenry, as we discussed, but that needs to be 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.960 informed citizenry. So information relevant for politics in some level 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.680 is a public good and if it becomes very polluted, 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.159 it makes things very difficult. So imagine that a mayor 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.480 takes important steps and shows how you can rebuild your community, 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.880 provide better public services, improve things. You mean, the job 0:22:54.880 --> 0:23:02.480 of the mayor for example, but then social media presents 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:07.560 that as a complete failure to everybody. That's going to 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:12.480 create real difficulties now. But it's a very delicate issue. Liberalism, 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.960 as I said, has to spend four starts to stand 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:18.040 for freedoms, and freedom of speech is critical. 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.880 And even if you don't believe in that or it's 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.240 a controversial position I. 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.800 Am. I am a free speech absolutist. I think individuals 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.280 should be free to express their opinion, but I don't 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.399 think free speech extends to algorithms. So I should be 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:39.600 able to say whatever you want. I want. You should 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.080 be able to say whatever you want, Carol. But then 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.119 if algorithms take the worst of what we say and 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:48.640 amplify that, that's not freedom of speech. That's manipulation. So 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.879 that's why we need to put some rules for algorithms. 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.879 For example, one thing that would work is if we 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.399 go back to the MySpace day without algorithmic feed you 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.760