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Speaker 1: Ah, beaut force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software radio, special operations, military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community.

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Speaker 1: Soft rep dot Com on Time on Target. Really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the last episode with John Robb. We went really long

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Speaker 1: and I see that he um just posted it on

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Speaker 1: Global Grillages, which is really cool to appreciate him spreading

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Speaker 1: the word. And I think he enjoyed coming on and

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Speaker 1: he said he'd be back. Yeah, you know, that was

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Speaker 1: a great, great interview. I mean, he had a lot

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Speaker 1: of terrific information to share, and I love his perspective.

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Speaker 1: I mean he has just comments to make about like

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Speaker 1: political trends and future trends and what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the world that like you, just not earned from other

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Speaker 1: news sources or other analysts. I mean, he has a

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Speaker 1: really unique perspective. I think he puts his finger on

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Speaker 1: what's going on much better than um, just about everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Tell you the truth. Yeah, I agree, and I like

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Speaker 1: that we have really versatile guests on here. It's it's

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Speaker 1: not always soft guys, although he is a soft guy.

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Speaker 1: We didn't get into all of that. Um, but much

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Speaker 1: like this episode, we're gonna have Dave phillips On, who's

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Speaker 1: a New York Times writer and UM focuses on veterans issues,

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Speaker 1: and I'm excited to hear about this development of ecstasy

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Speaker 1: being used as UM relief from PTSD. And it's not

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Speaker 1: just like a theory right reading this article, There's been

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Speaker 1: some studies done and more studies are going to be

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Speaker 1: done by the FDA and other UM other groups, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you know what I mean, it sounds crazy,

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Speaker 1: but is it really anymore? I mean, it's it's probably

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Speaker 1: less crazy than the amount of pills they're shoving down

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Speaker 1: these guys throats that are are proven have a lot

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Speaker 1: of negative side effects. So I mean, I've heard of

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Speaker 1: all kinds of weird treatments UM for PTSD, from like

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Speaker 1: magnets UM to you know. Of course, medical marijuana is

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Speaker 1: another one that gets talked about a lot. And now,

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Speaker 1: fucking magnets, how do they work? Did did the magic?

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Speaker 1: Did that reference? Did you get their refforts? Now there's

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Speaker 1: someone listening who does know there's a there's there was

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Speaker 1: an insane clown Posse song that had the lyric fucking magnets,

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Speaker 1: how do they work? Water fire, air, and dirt fucking magnets.

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Speaker 1: How did they work? And I don't want to talk

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Speaker 1: to a scientist, yo, motherfucker's sciences And it became just

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Speaker 1: like this giant meme they smoking on Saturday Night Live.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, sorry, I hadn't listened to I c P

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Speaker 1: since I was in high school Ian so neither did

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who will remember that line. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, apparently they've done some studies about

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Speaker 1: using M d M A to treat PTSD. That's too

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Speaker 1: many acronyms, but nonetheless, one d M A is the

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Speaker 1: is the actual drug in ecstasy, and which by the way,

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Speaker 1: should be There's been talks about using a d M T,

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Speaker 1: which is awesome, which is basically acid to treat PTSD.

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Speaker 1: So it's I don't know, I don't know, like how

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Speaker 1: legit some of this stuff is and how much of

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Speaker 1: it is just like different people, different doctors or firms

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Speaker 1: or whoever. They're just like, oh, PTSD is like a

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Speaker 1: big problem, you know, it's in the headlines. Let's just

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Speaker 1: throw whatever we have at it. So we're gonna give

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Speaker 1: vets d M T and m d M A and

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Speaker 1: see what happens. I think it's important though, um, as

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Speaker 1: I was going to say to um, specify M D

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Speaker 1: M A. Because also from what I've read a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, what people get with the street drug ecstasy

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Speaker 1: is like not really ecstasy, it's laced with other things.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that's true. This isn't just don't

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Speaker 1: just pick up ecstasy from some local deal or I

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Speaker 1: think it's gonna true. I remember when I was I

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Speaker 1: was doing some research on on cocaine actually, and like

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Speaker 1: most of what most what people consider cocaine, what they buy,

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Speaker 1: what they're putting up their nose, it's like five percent

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Speaker 1: ten percent cocaine. The rest of it is a filler.

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Speaker 1: There's like powder they put they put there's like a

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Speaker 1: d wermer for cattle that's mixed up in it, like

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Speaker 1: all kinds of weird ship. Yeah yeah, um, which is

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Speaker 1: interesting because you know, not that I do smoke marijuana, Um,

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Speaker 1: I really don't. But but from what I've heard, marijuana

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Speaker 1: has gotten more and more potent, while I guess some

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Speaker 1: of these street drugs have gotten lest potent. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm sure that's because marijuana has become more

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Speaker 1: mainstream in America and more and more people are growing

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Speaker 1: at home. Yeah, you know, so they're getting they're getting

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Speaker 1: the real deal. And then there's all these people who

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Speaker 1: are like, I don't know, I don't know anything about

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Speaker 1: it really, but they're doing all their hybrid marya juana

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Speaker 1: grow bays and everything in their basements. Although there's you know,

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Speaker 1: what is called synthetic marijuana, which has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with real marijuana. Is you know really that that ship

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Speaker 1: that the what did they call it? Um there's some

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Speaker 1: nickname for it. I think it's spice, right or something

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Speaker 1: like that. They banned it um our mary. Like the

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Speaker 1: military basis were like freaking out because our soldiers are

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Speaker 1: smoking synthetic marijuana. But that stuff seriously does fuck you up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's from what I've read, it's absolutely horrible for you

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Speaker 1: and it and I think they're trying to get sanitize

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Speaker 1: it with the name marijuana in it because it's not marijuana.

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Speaker 1: Synthetic marijuana has like serious brain impact. Yeah. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I've even heard of like on the border of Texas

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Speaker 1: them rating places, you know, these little like head shops

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Speaker 1: that sell bonds, that sell synthetic marika. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know who the funk would smoke

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Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana. But I think the military basis were freaking

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Speaker 1: out because they're like, well, this is a way soldiers

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Speaker 1: can go and smoke this stuff and not have to

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Speaker 1: worry about their drug tests. Um, but you know, the

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Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana, I mean, obviously it's it's fucking dudes up.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that was their concern. But otherwise I have

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Speaker 1: no idea why anyone was smoked synthetic marijuana. What the

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Speaker 1: what are you thinking? Some people just don't do their

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Speaker 1: research and they don't do that. Yeah. Um, well, getting

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Speaker 1: into some actual news here before we get Dave phillips on. Um,

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Speaker 1: this was big news. I just saw the video footage

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump meeting with them. The three of Arkians

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Speaker 1: who were being held hostage in North Korea. Um are

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Speaker 1: now free and they're now in the States. And that's

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Speaker 1: Kim Don shul Tony Kim and Kim Hot Songs. So yes,

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Speaker 1: the name Kim is in all of those those are

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Speaker 1: Americans who are now back on your base. Um, so

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Speaker 1: that's good news. Um. Were they Christian missionaries? You know what?

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Speaker 1: I was actually trying to figure out why they were

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Speaker 1: being held there. That was the case for um Ah

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Speaker 1: that the I can't remember his name who is being

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Speaker 1: held there. There's definitely a few Christian missionaries who had

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Speaker 1: been detained over in North Korea. UM. And then there's

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Speaker 1: also negotiations ongoing, as I understand it, with Japan, because

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Speaker 1: the North Koreans have kidnapped a bunch of Japanese people

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Speaker 1: over the years, UM and UM. So hopefully they're going

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Speaker 1: to get released as well, or the remains will be

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Speaker 1: returned to UH to Japan. And because of this, even

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Speaker 1: people who have been critical of the president pretty high

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Speaker 1: praise for Donald Trump and that they're they're saying, all right,

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Speaker 1: something positive is coming out of this meeting, which he

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Speaker 1: also announced, I should add, Uh just tweeted out minutes

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Speaker 1: before he started the podcast that he will be meeting

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Speaker 1: with Kim Jong un in Singapore on June twelve. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean we had this conversation a few podcasts back

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Speaker 1: where like how much credit does Donald Trump deserve? UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is something that's been ongoing since. But

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Speaker 1: he's the first president actually, as Brandon said recently in

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Speaker 1: his podcast, to take this approach what approach? Brandon was

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Speaker 1: saying on Power of Thought that the approach has been

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Speaker 1: starved these people out, We're not gonna have any diplomacy

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Speaker 1: with them, and Donald Trump is taking the opposite approach.

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Speaker 1: I'm open to meeting with with Kim Jong hoon. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, look, I'm not trying to like cut

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Speaker 1: undercut you know, Donald Trump's legs out from under him.

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Speaker 1: I just think it remains to be seen how much

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Speaker 1: I mean meeting with Kim Jong on. Uh, it's legitimizes

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Speaker 1: the regime and it's a it's a bigger win for

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Speaker 1: North Korea and it is for America. It maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: it's yet to be seen. What will what will happen, Right,

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Speaker 1: So let's let's just dial back before we get all giddy.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, if you're a Donald Trump supporter, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna want to give him all the credit

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Speaker 1: in the world. Look what he's done. But this is

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Speaker 1: a positive thing. But it is it is a positive

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Speaker 1: thing no matter how you look at it. It is

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Speaker 1: a positive development. And uh, and I really hope that um,

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Speaker 1: you know, Donald and Kim Jong un and the South

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Speaker 1: Korean government can hash all this out and hopefully it

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Speaker 1: turns out good. I mean, it is positive no question

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, and I think you know, none of

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Speaker 1: us want to see what the other alternative is, which

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Speaker 1: you know people think is like a World War three

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Speaker 1: type scenario. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably a

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Speaker 1: confluence of different things. UM. It also has to do

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Speaker 1: with with Kim himself. He's a young leader, took control

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Speaker 1: of this country because it's it's hereditary birthright, essentially as

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Speaker 1: part of the Kim regime. UM, and we talked about

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Speaker 1: on that last podcast. I think he probably has some

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Speaker 1: different ideas of North Korea and its place in the

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Speaker 1: world and what it should do. There's some speculation about

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Speaker 1: how he wants to draw closer to America and UM

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Speaker 1: not be UM just sort of a plaything or a

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Speaker 1: puppet for China to use to antagonize the rest of Asia. UM.

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Speaker 1: If that's true, I mean, this is great. That's a

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Speaker 1: great thing. I mean, let the let North Korea integrate

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Speaker 1: into UM South Korea and unite the Korean peninsula for

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Speaker 1: the first time since fort and UH, and let North

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Speaker 1: Korea become part of the global community. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: would be amazing if it happens. So it's it's an

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Speaker 1: exciting thing to see. And UH a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have very high hopes for what's to come out of this.

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Speaker 1: Um also just tweeted today, you know, just actually a

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Speaker 1: few minutes before we started this, Donald Trump wrote that

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Speaker 1: the five most wanted leaders of ISIS have been captured. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was interesting. I don't really know much about it

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Speaker 1: or than what I read, but it was. Um. I

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Speaker 1: mean I can tell from reading the article. It's one

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Speaker 1: of those things like when you read these articles and

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Speaker 1: like I say that this one was in the New

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Speaker 1: York Times, you can see you have to like read

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Speaker 1: between the lines and you can see the edits. You

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Speaker 1: can see like this is what's missing. There's like these

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Speaker 1: voids that are there. Then, so there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: this story that we're not getting um, which I guess

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Speaker 1: is understandable. But it seemed to be reported it's some

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Speaker 1: sort of joint CIA Iraqi intelligence operation where they captured

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Speaker 1: one ISIS leader and then they used him to bait

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Speaker 1: in like five others. Um. Sounds like pretty you know,

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Speaker 1: savvy plan to me, and it worked. I guess do

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Speaker 1: we know who these men are? I mean, the the

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Speaker 1: leader vices was, Um, Well, it's debatable who's really in charge?

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Speaker 1: Bagdad that's the one that that he became Cobra commander.

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Speaker 1: He was the one that the media focused on. He

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Speaker 1: was the one that Isis put out as their front man.

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Speaker 1: How much is he really in charge of? Do you know?

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Speaker 1: Do you have any idea who these five men might be?

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Speaker 1: Their names have been released, I mean, none of them

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Speaker 1: like jumped out at me like, oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: such and such, because I didn't see that yet. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, I haven't really read up on it yet,

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Speaker 1: but I did see just the tweet. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: last thing I want to cover before we get to

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Speaker 1: David Phielips, Israel strikes Iranian targets in Syria and that

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Speaker 1: you know that just happened overnight. The I would say

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Speaker 1: that Israeli and Irani intentions are an all time high,

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Speaker 1: and they've always been very high, and you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of concern for what's to come with this. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we pulled out of the Iran deal and then Iran

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Speaker 1: fired a bunch of rockets at Israeli targets near the

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Speaker 1: goal on Heights Um. A couple of different I d

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Speaker 1: F facilities basis were hit. So of course the Israelis

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Speaker 1: retaliated and they they answer, he struck a lot of

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Speaker 1: regime targets. Um, they're punishing the Syrian regime for I

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Speaker 1: suppose ostensibly or no, really they are harboring um Iran,

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Speaker 1: So I guess that's what's going on there. UM. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to a friend the other day or actually

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Speaker 1: just last night who who was in Israel, and he

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Speaker 1: was like, I think what we're trying to do is

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Speaker 1: basically bait I ran into an attack or into a

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Speaker 1: into a larger conflict. UM. And he said that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the Israeli approach, like better now than later. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but remains to be seen. I'd actually like to get

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Speaker 1: someone on from Israel to talk about this. UM. Actually,

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Speaker 1: although he's he goes between Israel and the US. But

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Speaker 1: I reached out to Dan Gordon to come back on,

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Speaker 1: just because it's been quite a while since we've had

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Speaker 1: Dan Gordon and he's never been on with you. UM.

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Speaker 1: But also, who didn't love the movie Surfs with Rob Schneider,

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Speaker 1: And how many former I d F guys are like

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Speaker 1: writers are these interesting Hollywood movies which you know we

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Speaker 1: mentioned time. He's not, but he also um produced some

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Speaker 1: or wrote some great stuff like Wyatt earp Um, Kevin Costner, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and The Hurricane with Denzel Washington. Excellent movies. So he's

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Speaker 1: just an extremely talented guy. And he just put out

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Speaker 1: a movie um or or he just wrote something with

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Speaker 1: it's someone related to Kevin Sorbo. I'd have to check

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Speaker 1: it out. But I think it's a faith based thing

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Speaker 1: because Kevin Sorbo is a very like religious Christian um

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Speaker 1: you know. And I think Dan Gordon, I believe, is

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Speaker 1: a practicing Jew. So I think it's something faith based

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Speaker 1: and suck it out. I've actually a funny Kevin Sorbo story.

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Speaker 1: When I used to book Kevin Sorbo for David Webb show.

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Speaker 1: He would call me, uh, He'd called me back, and

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Speaker 1: he'd always say like, hey, I'm I'm open to coming

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Speaker 1: on David's show. He's like, I am very conservative, but

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Speaker 1: I do not want to get into all that on

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Speaker 1: the show. He's like, I just want to promote what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing. And he's like, look, these fucking Democrats, they're

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Speaker 1: basically socialists, communist, but but I'm not going to talk

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Speaker 1: about it on the show because it'll funk up my

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Speaker 1: career and all. He would and I'm like all right,

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Speaker 1: that's fine. Then he would come on the show. I

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Speaker 1: would let the hosts know, like we're not gonna get

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Speaker 1: into all this, and then he would start in with it.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I couldn't help himself, and

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Speaker 1: he'd be like these these democrats, you know you just

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Speaker 1: like can't help himself from getting political. He was hurt, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: That's why I have no problem UM talking about him

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Speaker 1: saying that, because he would he would blow it up.

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Speaker 1: And he's very open about it. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: what he was trying to hide you. And but now

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Speaker 1: he's a lot more faith based in his movies. UM

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Speaker 1: put out God's Not Dead and then there was a sequel,

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Speaker 1: God's Not Dead too, and that's like what he's doing

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Speaker 1: now is like very Christian oriented UM programming, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's his thing. But anyway, Yeah, Dan Gordon worked

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Speaker 1: with not Kevin Sorber himself off to look it up again.

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Speaker 1: I was a bigger fan of Lucy Lawless and Zena

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Speaker 1: the Warrior Princess. She was on Parks and Rex. I've

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Speaker 1: never really watched that show. That's a good show. Cool.

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Speaker 1: Uh all right, well let's get over to Dave unless

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Speaker 1: you have anything else that you want to get into. Um, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I think that's it. But by the way, I've been

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Speaker 1: getting emails sent to softwrep dot radio, a softwarep dot com,

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Speaker 1: and just every email is like heavily anticipating your memoir.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's cool, that's good to hear people are excited. Um.

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Speaker 1: I have a meeting with my publisher tomorrow. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: we're just having kind of a face to face to

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Speaker 1: talk about as we're going through the editing process and

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Speaker 1: I've been working on the book a lot, trying to

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Speaker 1: fine tune it. Um. And so we're gonna have sit

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Speaker 1: down tomorrow and talk about all that. How many pages

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Speaker 1: is the rough book? I was looking at it yesterday.

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Speaker 1: It's eighty three thou words um as it stands. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want to like make promises because this isn't

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Speaker 1: the final version of the book, but I believe that's

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Speaker 1: going to be like at page book. That's that's pretty

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Speaker 1: average road say yeah as a length, Yeah cool, looking

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Speaker 1: forward to it. It's not going to be like Henry

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Speaker 1: Kissinger's three volume autobiography and Jude know what I'm reading,

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Speaker 1: it's surprisingly thick. I'll play you something I've bought this

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Speaker 1: book three times, and I'll explain why. This is Mike

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Speaker 1: Tyson's memoir, super thick book. This is let's see uh five,

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Speaker 1: I mean for a memoir. And there's pictures in here,

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Speaker 1: but not a whole lot. I'll tell you why I

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Speaker 1: bought this three times. I bought this as a hardcover

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Speaker 1: and it's huge. It's like a fucking textbook. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm like a back. Yeah. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to carry this around. So I returned.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a thing called the books, now right,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. Then I bought it on kindle, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just not a fan of reading on a kindle.

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Speaker 1: I realized you can read on a tablet to or

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Speaker 1: a cell phone or whatever. Yeah, I don't really why.

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Speaker 1: I like having the actual book in front of me.

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Speaker 1: So I've read maybe two books on a kindle. And

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Speaker 1: then I was just like, this is not for me.

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Speaker 1: Uh So I bought it again, I because and and

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually take it out from a library just

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Speaker 1: because it's thicker. I'm like, I know it's gonna take

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Speaker 1: me longer. I end up taking longer to read, so

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Speaker 1: to be honest, so it's good. It's good thus far

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Speaker 1: though me like Tyson has lived an extremely interesting life. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt about that. I mean, getting into trouble,

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Speaker 1: getting out of trouble. Yeah, I'm very big on memoirs

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Speaker 1: of athletes and musicians that wou feel like my favorite

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Speaker 1: type of bucks. Personally, I don't think I've ever read

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Really read Motley Cruz The Dirt that's

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Speaker 1: a crazy buck. Yeah, yeah, that's up there for me.

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Speaker 1: I mean everybody's read it. It's just like the ship

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Speaker 1: that these guys did because they're like getting in a

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Speaker 1: fist fights backstage and like yeah, and also you know,

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Speaker 1: hooking up with women who were probably who I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say, like we're underage. At

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Speaker 1: the time, people didn't really care. This was far before

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Speaker 1: the me Too, and just through the amount of antics,

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Speaker 1: the amount of drug overdoses that these like, they were

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Speaker 1: the most reckless band I think in the history of

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Speaker 1: rock music. So it's worth three. I mean, well, Nikki six,

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Speaker 1: if you ever see the Behind the Music talks about

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Speaker 1: that he overdosed on heroin, went to the hospital, uh

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Speaker 1: you know, flatlined and went back to his apartment and

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Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, um, I changed my voicemail to like,

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Speaker 1: this is Nikki six and if you're hearing this, I'm dead.

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Speaker 1: And he's like and then I shot up another dose

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Speaker 1: to heroin. Ship. Yeah, woke up like the next morning

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Speaker 1: with a pool of blood inside his palm and he's like,

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Speaker 1: at that point was when I realized, like I have

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Speaker 1: a problem. Ship. Yeah, like just out of control, Like

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Speaker 1: at the height of their fame, at the height of

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Speaker 1: six of what people would call success, they were all

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Speaker 1: out of control. So yeah, I would highly recommend reading

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Speaker 1: The Dirt. I mean, if you're someone who's not into

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Speaker 1: reading stuff that, let's just say isn't tame, it's not

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Speaker 1: for you, but it's definitely very explicit. But I love

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Speaker 1: that book. Yeah. I mean I imagine a bunch of

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Speaker 1: like young guys who suddenly come into fame and fortune

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Speaker 1: and like there's no like guide book to show you

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Speaker 1: how to handle that, and all these guys end up

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Speaker 1: being out of control. Justin Bieber, Justin Bieber's out of control. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Beebes. Yeah, he's been. He's been very out of

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Speaker 1: control with like crashing cars and drugs, and he seems

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Speaker 1: like he's you know, I guess a religious Christian now

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Speaker 1: and also his entire body is tattooed at this point,

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Speaker 1: which is so funny, Like you see this TV boxer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, he was like tiger Beat. Yeah yeah. So

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Speaker 1: all right. I mean if if I got blew up

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Speaker 1: like that and became rich and famous, like it would

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Speaker 1: be just the opposite. You wouldn't hear from me probably ever. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'd just like buy an island and I'd be like

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Speaker 1: snorkeling all day. Well you're talking about now, but if

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Speaker 1: you were if I was like yeah, oh Jesus, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd be a train wreck. Yeah, no question. And that's

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Speaker 1: what a lot of these guys experienced. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't you don't know how to ak Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's totally different between you know, being getting famous when

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Speaker 1: you're twenty and getting you know, coming into that same

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Speaker 1: kind of notoriety when you're like thirty five or forty

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Speaker 1: you're already an adult and have a family and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, we'll see that with that. Joining

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Speaker 1: us for the time on Software Radio, Dave Phillips Pulitzer

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Speaker 1: Prize winning national correspondent for The New York Times, covering

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Speaker 1: veterans and the military, and issues involving the veterans veterans

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Speaker 1: in the military. Uh So, this latest article that you wrote,

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Speaker 1: ecstasy as a remedy for PTSD you probably have some questions,

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Speaker 1: is really interesting because I feel like until now the

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Speaker 1: idea of using m d m A or ecstasy as

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Speaker 1: a remedy for PTSD has been a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of an abstract and this has a little bit more

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Speaker 1: concrete evidence than that. It is having some initial results,

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Speaker 1: right right. I really enjoyed reading it because so just

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Speaker 1: to get into the beginning of it, as you wrote here,

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Speaker 1: research published in the British Journal of the Alliance ap

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Speaker 1: Psychiatry found that after two sessions of psychotherapy with the

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Speaker 1: party drug officially known as m d m A, a a

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Speaker 1: majority of twenty six combat veterans and first responders with

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Speaker 1: chronic PTSD who had not been helped by traditional methods

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Speaker 1: saw dramatic decreases and symptoms. And you have like quotes

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Speaker 1: here from someone who is a former Marine Corps machine gunner,

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Speaker 1: and as you right here, the improvements were so dramatic

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Speaker 1: that sixty percent of the patients no longer met the

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Speaker 1: clinical criteria for PTSD. So I'd like to here you

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Speaker 1: get into that and what you observed from these guys. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so those results are pretty astounding. That uh sixty percent,

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Speaker 1: almost three out of four of these folks who had

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Speaker 1: not been helped by the traditional remedies psychotherapy or or

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Speaker 1: you know, accepted medications, percent of them UM had such

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Speaker 1: dramatic decreases and symptoms that they no longer qualified for

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Speaker 1: a PTSC diagnosis. Now that doesn't mean they're cured, that

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Speaker 1: they have no more issues, It just means that they

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Speaker 1: are below the threshold they are are seen is no

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Speaker 1: longer essentially having a disorder. So that's amazing. That is

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Speaker 1: UM such strong results that it really uh, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you were compared Apple to Apple to two other

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Speaker 1: things like UM, you know, the established psychotherapy approaches, it

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Speaker 1: works a lot better. So that immediately caught my attention

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to know, Okay, what is this all about?

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Speaker 1: Is this data real, UM, and and what does it

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Speaker 1: mean going forward? Hey, David's Jack, thanks for coming on today.

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Speaker 1: I just want to I want to ask if you

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Speaker 1: get a little bit deeper into that. UM. You know,

424
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: I've seen over the years all kinds of UM, various

425
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: treatments floated out there for people who are suffering from PTSD. UM.

426
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: Some of it's pretty zaney, everything from using d m

427
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: T to using magnets and the power of magnetism, and

428
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: it's just hard to know how much of it is

429
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: pseudo science. But I mean, this sounds like there's some

430
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: real results here. I was wondering if you could explain

431
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: why m d m A is something that she seems

432
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: to work. I mean, what is it doing for guys

433
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: that that is helping? Yeah. That was the thing that

434
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: caught my eye too, is there are so many people

435
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: out there who, you know, say they've found a better

436
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: way to address PTSD. And one of the reasons is

437
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: that it's a huge problem, right. I mean, if we

438
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: just look at um, the military, and you take out

439
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: first responders and anyone else, UM, we've we've probably got

440
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people who are affected at some level,

441
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: and the current accepted UM treatments don't work very well.

442
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: And by that I mean that I'm not saying that

443
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: they don't work. Sometimes they work wonders, but for a

444
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: lot of people they don't. People either find them re

445
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: traumatizing in cases of some types of psychotherapy that one

446
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: kind where they make you, they make you relive the

447
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: memories over and over again, right, and and some people,

448
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: for some people that's actually very effective and that there

449
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: is a scientific basis, and and for some people, uh,

450
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: they're just it's not And what's unfortunate is the people

451
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: where it's not effective and they leave a lot of

452
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: times they're not counted in the studies if it's too

453
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: traumatic and they say forget this, I'm out of here. Uh,

454
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: they no longer become part of the sample size. So

455
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: I think that that the evidence for that type of

456
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: therapy it's a little shakier than we think. Um. So

457
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: in psychotherapy there are people that are not getting helped.

458
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: Also in medication there are people that are not getting helped. Now,

459
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: there are only two drugs that are actually uh FDA

460
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: approved for treating PTSD. They're both antidepressant. But as as

461
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: listeners probably know, um, people are treated off labeled by

462
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff. So you might go into UH

463
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: get help for PTSD, and you get an antidepressant and

464
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: a sleep aid and an anti anxiety drug and a

465
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: blood pressure drug. That's how I'm supposed to help, and

466
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: you leave with five six twelve different medications. Um, it

467
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: seems kind of weird from just from the onset. It

468
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: seems kind of weird to treat PTSD with depression. I mean,

469
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure depression is one symptom, but I mean just

470
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: because you have PTSD doesn't mean you're depressed, right, And

471
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: and again I think there was you know, some some

472
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: clinical basis, some testing that actually said it does help,

473
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: but it was it was not super compelling uh uh,

474
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: super compelling evidence. So you know, what you've got is

475
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: is two established treatments, either prescription drugs or psychotherapy that work,

476
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: but don't work for everybody. And that's why you have

477
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: the proliferation of all sorts of other stuff, you know, um,

478
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: swimming with the Dolphin therapy, dog wilderness retreat, magnets, you know,

479
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: just like you said. And I'm not saying that those

480
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: things aren't effective too, but their scientific basis there, their

481
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: actual evidence is even shaped here. So you know, I

482
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: think the absence of some really compelling effective one treatment

483
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: opened the door for for studies of PTFD. Well, what

484
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: is the effect that m d m A has on

485
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: the people that it was tested on? I mean, can

486
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: you describe how that is actually helping them. Yeah, so

487
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: let me first describe how this is apply because I

488
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: think most of us are familiar with with m d

489
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: m A and we associated with as a party drug. Yeah,

490
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: I thought about bringing my sticks in the work or

491
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: a rave or whatever. Um. So what is actually being

492
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: studied is what they call m d m A assisted therapy.

493
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: So it is taking m d m A in conjunction

494
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: with a series of twelve therapy sessions. First, you do

495
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: three sessions where you get to know your therapists. They

496
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: get to know you and what your issues are, and

497
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: you get an understanding of what the m d m

498
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: A is going to be like. And then you take

499
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: a dose of m d m A while the at

500
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: the therapist office, while the therapist is there, David, how

501
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: how long? How long does that last? High? So, so

502
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: this is not like your normal doctor's office where you're

503
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: like sitting on the table with the paper on it right. Uh.

504
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: The office where they do these studies, Uh, it kind

505
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: of looks like a hang out. You know, there's comfy

506
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: couches and and cool music playing and fresh flowers and

507
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: it's like a very pleasant place and the entire i'll

508
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: call it a trip for lack of a better like

509
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: clinical term. The trip last about eight hours, during which

510
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: two therapists uh sitting next to and sort of guide

511
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: you through uh the experience. That's I mean, if if

512
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: you're not enjoying this, you're fucked for eight hours. If

513
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: they will not go, well, I don't have it in

514
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: front of me, but I think generally, um uh there

515
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: there's some The evidence was that there was some anxiety

516
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: going into it when you know, when when patients felt

517
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: the drugs hit. But but that I think the people

518
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: having a quote unquote bad trip was really low and

519
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: I think that that is sort of the street reputation

520
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: of this drug as well. You know, it's a lot

521
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: different from uh LFD. So anyway, you go through this

522
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: eight hours where suddenly your your brain is flooded with

523
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: hormones and neurotransmitters that um create a sense of truck

524
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: and safety and um well being. And the therapists that

525
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: they're doing this, they don't really know, you know, on

526
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: a neuron level what is happening. But they describe the

527
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: m d m A as as sort of a catalyst

528
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: that allows a healing process to happen. So the main

529
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: doctor has been heading this up. He had been a UM.

530
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: He had been an emergency doctor, emergency room doctor for

531
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: years before he became a psychiatrist, And so I asked him, well,

532
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: what do you mean. It's it's a catalyst that allows

533
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: the healing to happen. And he said, well, you know,

534
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: the body has the ability to heal itself. When I

535
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: was in the emergency room and someone came in with

536
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: a broken bone, I put a cast around it, but

537
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: I did not actually do the healing of the bone.

538
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: I just created a situation where healing could take place.

539
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: And that is what we think is happening with the

540
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: m D M A. Uh. If you think of post

541
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder, it is an inability to properly process

542
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: traumatic memories, and so you keep re experiencing them and

543
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: re experiencing them, sometimes in conscious ways, sometimes an uncon

544
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: this ways, uh, you know, like an elevated blood blood

545
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: pressure lessness. So what they think happened is you are

546
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: so flooded with sort of trust and well being that

547
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: you are able to open the closet where the boogeyman

548
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: is and turn the light on essentially, you know, and

549
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: and see these issues for what they are. UM. Now

550
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: they don't think that that in itself is healing, but

551
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: that combined with follow up therapy and follow up sessions

552
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: of m d m A eventually allow you to see

553
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: what's going on and put it in a new perspective,

554
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: essentially repackage those memories that were too traumatic for you

555
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: to properly deal with in in the parts of your

556
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: brain that that store them and and package them in

557
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: a better way. UH. And what's interesting is that you

558
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: know this idea that the healing will happen naturally within

559
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: the body, and the M D m A is just

560
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: sort of the the cast that lets it take place there.

561
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: There is some interesting evidence to that in their studies. UH.

562
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: Overwhelmingly people's UH level of PTSD it went down dramatically

563
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: after the sessions of m D m A, but then

564
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: when the sessions were done in the twelve months after,

565
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: it continued to sort of creep down after that as

566
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: their their body, their mind, their conscious self continued to

567
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: sort of process and create a new relationship with these memories. UM.

568
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: So really different um from an antidepressant, which is trying

569
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: to to uh lessen the symptoms. UH. It is essentially

570
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: psychotherapy with with a cast. So the m d m

571
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: A has a potential to actually resolve the problem, so

572
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: to speak. That that is what they think. It helps

573
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: you repackage this stuff and cure it, you know, and

574
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the medications that have been used off

575
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: the labeled that I mentioned, they were trying to help

576
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: people deal with the symptoms. Look, you can't sleep, here's

577
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: something for that. You get your too anxious to drive,

578
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: here's something for that. H This is a very very

579
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: different approach. So the study they only took M d

580
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: m A one time. So in this study, and I

581
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: should say that this study was was a few dozen people,

582
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: but it is one of six similar studies so where

583
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: they've used the same technique. And the technique is basically

584
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: this um use psychotherapy and in conjunction with the psychotherapy,

585
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: you take two or three eight hour trips um They

586
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: some they have not seen necessarily much more benefit to

587
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: a third trip. So I think that their technique is

588
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: getting refined as they go. That's interesting. That is like

589
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: one dose and it can have such a big impact

590
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: on somebody's life, right, It's totally amazing. And you know,

591
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: I gotta say I'm kind of skeptical about this stuff, Like, uh, yeah.

592
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,479
Speaker 1: I have talked to a ton of people about the

593
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: benefits of marijuana for PTSD, and I always thought like, yeah, okay,

594
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: it's it's a known like anti anxiety drug, but it's

595
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: it's probably not going to help you out a lot

596
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: like no harm done, but not that exciting as an

597
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: actual treat. It's one of those things I can get

598
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: you through the day, but that's it right, right, and

599
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: and certainly better than wild you know, wild turkey, but uh,

600
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: totally different from from this approach. And I think that's

601
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: why uh clinicians are are really excited about this stuff. Um,

602
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: it is not just a couple of hitties from California,

603
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: who are are you know studying this although funny story,

604
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: that's who funded all the research. But it's now the

605
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: v A, uh some Ivy League universities that are getting

606
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: interested in Okay, how can we use this idea not

607
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: just for PTSD but to look at other anxiety disorders.

608
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: I wonder about what big farms take on this will

609
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: be because oftentimes when you give veterans the PTSD antidepressants

610
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: and those type of things, they they essentially of a

611
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: customer for a wife or for many years. If this

612
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: is something that could be treated one or two times.

613
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: This is not a big money maker for any drug company. Well,

614
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: and that is the reason that no drug company, well

615
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say the reason, but perhaps the reason no

616
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: drug company has gotten involved in this. The group that

617
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: is funding all of the research and has really been

618
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: a proponent of this is a nonprofit UM called MAPS

619
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, and it's really the work

620
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: of one man, a Harvard grad who uh was involved

621
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: with with MBMA before it was it became illegal in

622
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: the mid eighties and realized UH there was a healing

623
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: potential to it then, and when it was made a

624
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: legal he decided he would make it his life's work

625
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: to try and legalize it again. And the only way

626
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: he sought to do that was to prove through rigorous

627
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: science UH that it had a clinical benefit. And so

628
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: he's taken donations from all sorts of people. UH. Dr

629
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: Browner Soap is a major funder of his, but so

630
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: are a lot of big conservative donors, including the Mercer family,

631
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: which owned a big stake in Braggard News UM. Some

632
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: traditional public health philanthropists like the Rockefeller family have also

633
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: given UM I think more than a million dollars to

634
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: this effort. Uh so it really has a lot of

635
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: people who have taken interest because they see the results.

636
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: So what's the next step? Then, now that they've they've

637
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: gotten some initial findings that there's a lot of potential here, Um,

638
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: is there any plan for you know, what's the next step?

639
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: How do we look at maybe mainstreaming this kind of treatment? Yeah, so,

640
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: so any drug that's going to be approved by the

641
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: FDA has to go through essentially steps one, two, and three.

642
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: Step one proved that this thing is not dangerous. You know,

643
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: if we tried to test cyanide as A as a

644
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: potential treatment and everybody died, it wouldn't get past step one. Okay,

645
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: m d m A got past step one. Step two

646
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: proved that it actually has clinical benefits, not only that

647
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: it won't kill you, but it can actually help with

648
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: with a specific disorder or ailment. And that's what these

649
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: repeated small studies have done. They're called phase two studies

650
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: that show yes, these made a significant difference in PTSD.

651
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: Phase three is the larger scale study. Can we actually

652
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: take this little study that might have had a few

653
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: dozen people in it, um and do it not only

654
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: with more people, but with um lots of different psychiatrists,

655
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: because what if it is not that the m b

656
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: m A is amazing, but that the guide leaving the

657
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: studies is amazing and it can just talk to people

658
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: in the way I can cure them. So they want

659
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: to know that it can work everywhere with everyone. UM.

660
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: Those studies are going to start within a few weeks

661
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: and should be finished by If they can replicate the

662
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: results that have been seen so far, it's expected that

663
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: the FDA will approve this UM. Maybe. Now, that does

664
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: not mean that you can go down to your Walgreens

665
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: and get a prescription for m b m A and

666
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: take it home. It would be still pretty tightly controlled

667
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: and you would only be able to get it in

668
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: this uh, this psychotherapy assisted setting where you would be

669
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: it would be part of a agreed upon psychotherapy program

670
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: and you would get it just a set number of times,

671
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: two or three. That's excellent. I mean, I would hope

672
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: that these results are replicated on a larger scale. And

673
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: I would especially hope though, because there always is that

674
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: issue with when you're taking any kind of drug, putting

675
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: any type of chemical in your body, there's probably going

676
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: to be the anomaly who responds negatively and might even

677
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: worsen their PTSD, right right. Um, you know it's interesting too,

678
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: is is uh? You know? I I wonder, so I

679
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: live in Colorado where pot is legal and all over

680
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: the place, uh, and I wondered, if you know, this

681
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: could be a letting the genie out of the bottle

682
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: thing where Okay, if you let people do m D

683
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: M A in this this therapy session, are they going

684
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: to like like it so much that then afterwards they

685
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: just like go buy it on the street and that's that?

686
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: And so I actually asked a number of the vets

687
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: have gone through this program, and a couple of them

688
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: said that, yeah, they did go do that afterwards, but

689
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: they didn't get a whole lot out of it. Um,

690
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: the uh guided therapy sessions really made a huge difference

691
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: to them. And they I think all the ones, all

692
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: of them that I talked to, had tried it once

693
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: or maybe twice after but hadn't since that's interesting. Yeah,

694
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: So I think they they thought it was really uh

695
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: different from just like doing it at a at a

696
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: party or something. And it's also it's got to be

697
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: uh weird, finding like a therapist who's willing to sit

698
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: down for eight hours and guide them through this experience.

699
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: It almost I mean, I don't mean to be insulting

700
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: to you know, the hard work that the doctors have done,

701
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: but it almost sounds like Timothy Weary type stuff. Well,

702
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: I mean it is kind of related, right, It's this

703
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: weird combination of this very ancient shamanist idea. That's why

704
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: I mentioned Lanka and modern psychotherapy. UM. Uh So, the

705
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: one of the things that that the organization that's that's

706
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: doing this MAPS is really engaged in right now is Okay,

707
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: they are pretty confident this will be UM approved by

708
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? Then will we have enough really

709
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: well trained psychotherapists to meet the need? So they are

710
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: actively right now training. Uh. You know the people who

711
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: will do this right now handful, but they are. They

712
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: are making more every day. I think one issue could

713
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: be you have a current administration that has been pretty

714
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: hostile towards recreational drugs. I mean, the stuff Jeff Sessions

715
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: has said about marijuana, which is a pretty tame drug

716
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: I think most people would say in comparison to ecstasy

717
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: um and has not been very open to the whole

718
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: legalization movement. I wonder if they would put a halt

719
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: on something like that. Yeah. I haven't looked into that,

720
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: and so I don't want to speculate our but we

721
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: will see. I think that that the broad coalition of

722
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: donors and supporters and the pretty if they can, if

723
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: they can real evidence, uh, that will be pretty compelling.

724
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: So we'll see how it shakes out. Awesome. Hey, I'm

725
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: wondering before we let you go, since you know you

726
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: do write about veterans affairs, what other stuff are you

727
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: working on for the Times? Oh? You know what. We're

728
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: trying to figure out right now, how the lack of

729
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: leadership at v A is actually affecting services on the ground. Um.

730
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you got your work cut out for

731
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: you there, buddy. Yeah. I know. Because the VA is

732
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: so large and different ways screwed up anyway, that it's

733
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: hard to tell how much of the screwing up is

734
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: happening in Washington and how much of it is just

735
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, local um. But we want to keep a

736
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: real close eye on that. I think that a lot

737
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: of debt groups are are worried that without you know,

738
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 1: good leadership, UM, things could just sort of sprawl and

739
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: maybe go go back a few steps. VA seems like

740
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: a uniquely screwed up organization, Like they screw up everything

741
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: there is to screw up, and they just stop screwing

742
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 1: up no matter how hard people. I actually, I actually

743
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: think that like VA is so big um that whatever

744
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: you can say about it will be both right and wrong.

745
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: You know. It's like the military. You know, within the military,

746
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: there are people who are just like amazing and smart

747
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: and selfless, and there are just total morons to right.

748
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: Same thing in law enforcement. Every Yeah, the VA every

749
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: day provides like amazing life saving care. It has h

750
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: smart and dedicated people who are working their selflessly, and

751
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: it just also is this bureaucratic morat So what's difficult

752
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: is not to hold both things in your head at once. Yeah. Yeah,

753
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: I mean I've said before I've been to the v

754
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: A here in Manhattan, and I've had pretty good experiences,

755
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, no bad experiences for sure. But then I

756
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: also have a friend who was one of the people

757
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: who was molested by the doctor. Came out in the news.

758
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: I can't remember his name, but he was like the

759
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: Jerry Sandusky of Veterans Affairs and he was groping and

760
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: molesting all of these veterans under the guys of it

761
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: being um medical examinations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the problem

762
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: with the v as. How do you like report on

763
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: both and and really give an idea of what's going on? Yeah,

764
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: I agree it And you know, I've read that story.

765
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: I know the person that it involves. Um, yeah, actually

766
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: a long time ago. He was on the show and

767
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: uh no, really good guy. Um, it's unfortunate that, you know,

768
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: anybody has to go through that. And by the way

769
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: that you know, the stereotype of people will have and

770
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure he has to deal with this is you know,

771
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: this is like a badass, you know, former Army Special

772
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: operations guy, and people probably say to him like, how

773
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: do you let that go on? Why don't you just

774
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 1: kick the guy's ass? And I'm sure there's a reason

775
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: that it didn't go down that way. It's it's weird.

776
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of those things where there's a

777
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: doct or who's in a position of authority and at

778
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: that moment you think that what he's doing is appropriate,

779
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: you know, but over a longer period of time it

780
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: comes out like, actually, this was really inappropriate and he

781
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: was doing it to a lot of different people. UM, right, right, right,

782
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: But I mean he he had his day. Justice was

783
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: served in that case. Um, so at least there's that. Yeah. Well, Dave,

784
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: keep up the good work on that. Um. I'm looking

785
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: forward to see what you know, you guys come up with. Um.

786
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: You know, VA definitely needs a lot of reform and

787
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: maybe restructuring. Yeah, well we'll see. You know, it's so

788
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: often in the Trump administrations people talk about big change

789
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: and then they can't even get someone confirmed. So if

790
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: the question of will they be able to do what

791
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: they want to do, and I actually am still questioning

792
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: what they want to do. So as we try and

793
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: figure that out, will you will report it? Yeah? Absolutely,

794
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: And when you do, um, you know, I hope you'll

795
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 1: come back on the podcast and we can talk about

796
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: it some more. Sure it sounds good. Yeah, this was

797
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: great and I loved the study. Like I really do

798
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: hope that this has some positive results in the future.

799
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: And I'm sure some veterans listening to this are hopeful

800
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: that that this could be a treatment option in the future.

801
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: And if you want to follow David on Twitter, it's

802
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: at David Underscore Phillips, and I should emphasize two p

803
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: s at the end of Philips. So this is David

804
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: Underscore p h I L l I p p s.

805
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: Because there is another David Phillips who spells it, you know,

806
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: the other way. But yet David a nice guy but

807
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: not me. Yeah, So David Underscore Phillips p h I

808
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: L l I P p s on Twitter. And we

809
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: look forward to reading more your work at the New

810
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: York Times. I mean, I think people will be pleasantly surprised,

811
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: people who don't read The New York Times. Yes, there

812
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 1: is someone covering veterans issues from an objective standpoints. I

813
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: think it's great. Well, thanks for having me on. I

814
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: appreciate it great, Thank you, Thanks Dave. So one of

815
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: the last things I want to get into before we

816
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: wrap things up here Gina Haspall being confirmed or hopefully

817
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: being confirmed as the new director of the CIA. Jack

818
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: Devine wrote an article on this a recent guest that

819
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: will love to have him back on and talk about

820
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: it's saying that like, for one, it would be great

821
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 1: to have a female at the head of the CIA,

822
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: like it would be a groundbreaking thing. But he's like,

823
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: on top of her being a female. He believes this

824
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: is the most qualified person that would ever hold this position,

825
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: went into her background, and I think the headline of

826
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: the article basically what he implied was that Gina Haspall

827
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: is saying that torture will not come back under the

828
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 1: CIA and any capacity under her. We need to believe

829
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: this and we need to confirm her. Yeah. Well, I mean,

830
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: I understand why people are sensitive about the you know,

831
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: rendition and the and the enhanced interrogation techniques. Um, but

832
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: it seems like we didn't think Rill Pompeo about this

833
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: stuff too, like are you going to torture people? It's

834
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: like okay, Like at a certain point, like I I understand,

835
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't agree with those methods, and I think it

836
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: was immoral, if not illegal, and we shouldn't be doing

837
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, But like, okay, we gotta move

838
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: on now. And I think Gina is also somebody who

839
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: has moved on and understands like, we don't want to

840
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 1: make these mistakes again. Question, then what about people like

841
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: Rob O'Neill who have been very vehement and tweeting like

842
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: that that enhanced interrogation went to the capture of osam

843
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: Bin Wadden from his view, and you mean the killing

844
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: of ben Laden, the cat well, the kah kill. I

845
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: have no idea that's the zero Dark thirty narrative. I

846
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: mean I don't. I can't speak for Rob O'Neill, but

847
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: I have no idea why he believes that there was.

848
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: That's not how they found Bi Laden was through water

849
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: boarding people. But I think they believe you know, K

850
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: S M and it led to some of the progress

851
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: I've heard other I mean, this is an interesting thing

852
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: because I could say, in the history of this part

853
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: the c I I mean, I'm pretty sure the CIA

854
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: has come out themselves and said no, that that is

855
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: on how we found Bi Latten. But I just said,

856
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: this is an interesting thing because in the history of

857
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: this podcast, this has been a very conflicted thing. Drew

858
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: Dwyer's former CIA has said that, like he has said

859
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: on the podcast, I know that it has led to

860
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: stopping terrorists attacks. You know maybe yeah, I mean I

861
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily doubt it, right, I mean, it's certainly possible.

862
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: You know what. I think the problem some people have

863
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: with the narrative is when people come out there and

864
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: they're like, funk, these terrorists will do whatever the hell

865
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: we want for them, electrocute their balls, and its yeah,

866
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: that's not why we're doing this. We're hoping that it

867
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: leads to some substantial information. It's not just done as

868
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: a punishment, right, And that's the that's the you know,

869
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: like the Stanley Milgram experiments and where it becomes sadistic.

870
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: It's like, we're not torturing people so we can feel

871
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: good about ourselves, so like I can feel like I'm

872
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: a man I tortured, Like that is the worst reason

873
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: to ever do anything. Um. You know, you're doing it

874
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: hopefully to you know, to to increase um American national

875
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: security and save innocent live you know, if anything. Um,

876
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: it'll be interesting because I get into this topic a

877
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: little bit in uh, in my memoir that I'm writing,

878
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: because I was a guard at certain points in a

879
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: so called you know Jaysock black site, you know, secret prison, uh,

880
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: And I witnessed some things and my friends witnessed some things.

881
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: Does this include the guy who was handcuffed on his

882
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: wedding night? No, No, that was not us. That was

883
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: Iraqi security forces that did that. No, I know, this

884
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: was an actual American detention facility that where we were

885
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: detaining Iraqis and I saw, you know, um, stresses put

886
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: upon prisoners. Um is a torture. At the time, I

887
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: did not regard it as torture. UM. But it's debatable.

888
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: Some people will definitely tell you, you know, UM, sleep deprivation,

889
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: stress positions, things like that were torture. UM. I have

890
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: mixed feelings about it to this day. UM. I don't

891
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: have like really big more role um objections to like

892
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: a stress position or something like that. Well, considering you

893
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: as an army ranger probably had to do some of

894
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: the same stuff. Well, I mean I definitely went through

895
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: worse when I went through sear school. I was definitely

896
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: subjected to worse than what the detainees, what what I

897
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: saw was happening. UM, but it raises some questions. I mean,

898
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: is this appropriate? You know? And UM, some of my

899
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: privates in my squad we're also having to pull the

900
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: same guard duties and uh. The in um, the people

901
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: who worked in the detention facility were encouraging my soldiers

902
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: like go and beat the ship out of the detainees.

903
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: And I told them, I was like, absolutely not, you

904
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: will not do that because that's not your job. Um.

905
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: You know, a booga rob was something in the news

906
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: at the time. I was like, you do not need,

907
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: you have no business being involved in any of that

908
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: kind of bullshit. But there were people working in that

909
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: detention facility telling my soldiers to do that, and I

910
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: stopped it, and I was like, look, if they tell

911
00:51:58,640 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: you to do that and they like put you on

912
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: the spot and try to order you, you come back

913
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: here and you find me, And it's definitely the right

914
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: move because regardless of what people's moral objections are, like,

915
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: you could very likely screw yourself over and then at

916
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: some point some guy you're serving with Leavenworth if something,

917
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: and now we're going we're also going off the script.

918
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 1: So like the stress positions and things like that that

919
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: was authorized at that time. Um, just like the water

920
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: boarding was for the CIA at the time. Whether you

921
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: agree with it or not, but that was the procedure, okay.

922
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: But now you're having like extra judicial like extracurricular activities

923
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: like yeah, go beat the ship out of that guy. No, no, no,

924
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: that that's a bougarab type ship. You know, where you're

925
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: doing it for like some kind of self satisfaction, Like

926
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: that's wrong, Like that's hands down just wrong. There's no

927
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: question about that. UM. So, yeah, all right, a little

928
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: bit about that stuff. I'm sure it's going to piss

929
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: people off. There was other stuff going on inside that

930
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: facility also, and others around iraq Um that no one's

931
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: really talked about out thus far. I don't know if

932
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: it will ever come out. They were run by contractors,

933
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: they weren't being run by soldiers. Yeah, but at least

934
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: from what I've read, the criticism of Gina Aspell seems

935
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: pretty unfounded, and that like this is what the this

936
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: is what was instructed to do at the time. She

937
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: wasn't the sole person who said this is what I

938
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: want to do. She was she would I mean, I'm

939
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: starting to describe it this way, but she was a

940
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: cog in the machine. She's one person you know, in

941
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: that in that UM, you know, intell in the intelligentsia,

942
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: in the in the intelligence infrastructure UM. But you know,

943
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 1: when I I queried, uh, some friends of mine who

944
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: have been you know, working in the c I A

945
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,959
Speaker 1: UM for a long period of time, and I asked

946
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: them about Gina, and they're like, look, she's the best

947
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: person for the job because she was there. She saw

948
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: all the mistakes we made, and she experienced all the

949
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: political bullshit, you know, the run up to the Iraq War,

950
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: the enhanced interrogation techniques. She lived through all of that,

951
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: so she knows where those pitfalls are and she knows

952
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to repeat those mistakes again. So I

953
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: and I agree with Jack Devine, And that's what I've

954
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: said in the past, Like if you're asked me personally,

955
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: I don't know how much my opinion counts for anything

956
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: when it comes to who should be running the CIA,

957
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: But in my opinion, I prefer that it's a career spy,

958
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: career CIA officer as opposed to a political appointee UM

959
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: who is just not familiar with the ins and outs

960
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: of intelligence operations. I certainly could agree on that. UM. Well,

961
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: this has been a great show. Loved having David on UM.

962
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to checking out more of his work.

963
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,439
Speaker 1: And as we wrap things up here, there's only one

964
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968
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971
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Speaker 1: for those who are listening for a limited time, you

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Speaker 1: can receive a fifty percent discounted membership to the spec

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Speaker 1: Ops Channel, our channel that offers the most exclusive shows,

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Speaker 1: dot com. Uh talk to the authors and all that

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Speaker 1: The app for the spec Ops channel was just developed

1013
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Speaker 1: by Chris, our developer, and it's available for iOS if

1014
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Speaker 1: you have an iPhone and the Android version will be

1015
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: available in June. Um As always follow us at softwarep Radio.

1016
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: Next episode, we're gonna have the founder of Emerson Knives on,

1017
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: So if you're a weapons guy, I mean, Emerson is

1018
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Speaker 1: a premier brands, yeah, nive, so we'll get to talk

1019
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: about all of that. So if you're a gear guy,

1020
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: that's gonna be a great show. A lot of other

1021
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 1: great people coming on at the end of this month.

1022
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the books by Matthew Betley here, who's

1023
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: a former Marine Corps officer and fiction writer, has put

1024
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: out some great stuff that I know the likes of

1025
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: people like Brad Thor of Praised, So I'm excited for that.

1026
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: With that, anything else from you know, I think that's it.

1027
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we've got some other stuff brewing as far

1028
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: as podcast guests and that we won't reveal. Yeah yeah, cool,

1029
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: All right, guys, as always, leave a review on Apple podcasts.

1030
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: I know a lot of you have, a lot of

1031
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: you have and it's really quick. Just go right on

1032
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: that app right a five star review. Uh, so we

1033
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: can get our visibility up because I want to make

1034
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: sure that every week we're beating Bernie Sanders podcast. I

1035
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: don't want to be overshadowed by or zero blog thirty,

1036
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: which does very well. You know, it has a podcast

1037
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: on our category and it was doing like okay the

1038
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: first week and then it shut down because I was like,

1039
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: who the hell is gonna listen to this? Senator Barbara

1040
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: Boxer has a podcast in our category, which I'm proud

1041
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: to say. We're beating Bernie Sanders though we come very cool,

1042
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: like we're we're like coming like tied up with the

1043
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: Bernie bros. Yes, sometimes they do better than us, sometimes

1044
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: we do better than them. So sweet mother of God,

1045
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: leave a review. That's the only way we can do better.

1046
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: Yes to capitalism. Folks, for listening, you've been listening to

1047
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: Self rep Raadia. New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday

1048
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: for all of the great content from our veteran journalists.

1049
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: Join us and become a team room member today at

1050
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: soft rep dot com, follow the show on Instagram and

1051
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at soft Rep Radio, and be sure to also

1052
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: check out the Power of Fault podcast, hosted by Hurricane

1053
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: Group CEO and Navy Seal Sniper instructor Brandon Webb.