WEBVTT - Moral Bioenhancements Part One 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.280 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:14.720 Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, a 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.720 podcast that looks at the future and says right and wrong. 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.600 Do you know the difference. I'm Jonathan Strick and I'm 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.279 Joe McCormick. Quick warning to the listeners that this is 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.760 one of those conversations we had that went way longer 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.120 than intended. So we decided to split this up for you, 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.920 divide right down the middle where we're gonna have half 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.519 of our conversation in this episode and then continue with 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.080 the second half in the next episode. Yeah, we got 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.640 something excited to talk about, guys, something I'm so excited about. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.800 You know, we talk all about trans humanism and and 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.600 bio enhancements. We've talked about it so many times in 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.040 this episode. Are not on this episode on the series, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.720 like the idea of of taking humans and making them better. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.200 You know you're staring at me blankly, Jim, I'm listening. Yes, okay, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.080 So we want to make them better by giving them claws, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:07.759 by giving them sharp clamps, well, clamps with claws on them, Okay, clamps, yes, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.880 of course, of course. Wings, I mean humans need wings. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.319 Generally I can eat like thirty or forty wings all 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.400 by myself. Yeah. So we've done an episode called one 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.160 to Our Our two cents on More Senses, which was 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:24.120 all about how we might be able to use technology 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:29.120 to expand our our ability to sense stuff around us. Right, 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.759 So we've talked about how to enhance ourselves that way. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:38.039 We've explored how bio enhancements presents some pretty difficult ethical questions. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:40.960 I remember we used to talk about is it ethical, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.119 say an athlete wants to just cut their healthy legs 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.160 off to get fake legs, And that's not the right word, 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.440 not fake legs, prosthetic legs that might be better than 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.560 the legs he or she was born with. Right, And 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.520 then also just on the on the other side of it, 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.440 is it ethical for a doctor to perform such a procedure? 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.680 Like Like, these are tricky questions that we don't have 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:07.880 the answers to. But instead of looking at those, I 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:12.040 thought we could actually look at a related but slightly 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:18.160 more focused topic, the concept of moral bio enhancements. Yes, 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.079 instead of making humans better, we make them better. Yes, 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.440 Instead of better at clamping and better at clawing and 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:31.160 running and flying, make make them better at not stealing 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.480 out of the donation box, right right, all the all 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.760 the little petty things that you know, add up at 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.720 the day like you you're you're from the moment you 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.200 wake up to the moment you go to bed, all 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.959 those little things that irritate you. Because if people were 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.000 just decent like you were decent, everyone would get along 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:53.040 much better, share making people less aggressive and more altruistic. Yeah, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:54.760 like like you know if they would, If people would 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.400 just let you into that lane of traffic, then everything 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.400 would move much more smoothly, works like a zipper. People 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.080 first one car from one lane and then one from 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.960 the next. But of course that's not how it works 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.360 because jerk faces are out there. But what if we 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.400 could have a little switch that said jerk face off 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.919 and everyone was a non jerk face. Well, that's thank 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.880 YouTube a lot more enjoyable. Yes, the comments sections would 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.080 be so much different. Although our our our commenters are 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.160 really very lovely. Yes, we're not talking about you guys. No, No, 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.160 it's you guys are beautiful. It's not you, it's those 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.120 other jerk faces. Uh. We So we wanted to talk 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.680 about this concept of moral bio enhancements. Now to talk 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.480 about that, we first have to just discuss what is 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.280 morality in the first place. Uh, And it's a tricky thing, right, 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.440 It's it's basically knowing the difference between right and wrong, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.440 if you want to be super super general about Yeah, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:54.200 but that that in itself is is Uh, it's deceptive 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.160 in its simplicity, right. Well, Yeah, we generally think it 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.640 describes a certain type of cognition and behavior, right, that 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.560 there is a decision making process and that happens in 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.480 the brain, or certain types of reactions to stimuli that 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.800 we class under morality. And there there are a lot 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.400 of different types of morality, right, Like, there are things 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.320 that some people consider moral dilemmas that other people would 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:24.400 not even categorize as moral questions. For example, Uh, generally 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.400 people almost universally think of things like not causing harm 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.680 to others and making things fair. Those are pretty universal 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.760 moral principles. But there are also things like, uh, certain 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:42.600 types of ideas about purity, ideas about loyalty and obeying authority, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.240 and things that people in some places and and some 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.800 individuals think of as very important moral issues and other 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.360 people don't even categorize as moral. Right, So one might 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.960 ask where did this whole concept of morality come from? Uh. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:00.880 There are a couple of law suffers that I was 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.279 reading about and their views on the subject, specifically because 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.279 they are advocates for moral bio enhancements. We'll get to 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.680 that in a second. Those philosophers are Julian Savolescu and 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.960 ingmar Person. They argue that morality arose out of the 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.720 way that we humans would group together, way way way back, right, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.240 you know, although to the point where we were just 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:28.280 tiny social groups of humans originally traveling together and then 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.919 eventually settling down and trying to create like an actual 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:37.320 uh settlement. I guess. So the theory there is that 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.840 evolutionarily there's a survival advantage to group behavior, that you 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.840 you have a better chance of passing on your genes 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.400 if you work together with others, and you work together 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.320 with others better if you behave well. Yes, that's essentially 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.440 the perspective saying that morality is that sense that makes 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.159 us feel badly when we cause harm to other people, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.120 and to a lesser extent, when we allow someone to 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.719 come to harm not through our direct action but through 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:07.159 our inaction and specifically within our social group. So we 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.320 feel worse if we're directly responsible for that harm. Morality 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.320 and causation are linked, according to their argument, and they 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.240 also say that the further out you get from a 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.359 social group, the less badly you would feel about harming 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.400 someone so so so. Yeah, So if I, if I 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.080 had the chance to to to through an action, do 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.400 something mean to to you guys, yeah I might. I 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:31.120 might feel pretty bad about it if it was to 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.839 someone in the next office over right, because you don't 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.400 know that person. Yeah. Yeah. This is also kind of 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.880 coming into something that I used to read about, I 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.800 think in The Straight Dope, where Cecil Adams argued that 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:49.440 essentially every group's name for themselves tends to mean the people, 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.840 and then then everyone's name for everyone else's those godless 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:58.080 heathens over there, right, So, so that that's an illustration 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.440 of this idea right there, that other group of people 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.320 are not within the social group, and so therefore you 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:08.120 don't feel that sense of of responsibility and accountability, or 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.720 or even if you feel responsible, you don't feel badly 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:15.240 about being responsible for their for anything negative happening to them. Well, 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.480 a much simpler way to think about this, even is 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.960 in your day to day life, you don't you treat 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.800 other people in traffic a way that you would not 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.240 treat your close friends and family members? What depends on 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.480 what they're doing in traffic. According to everyone I know, 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.800 I cut off everybody in conversation, So apparently I'm just 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:39.600 I'm talking about a morally normal person. That's fair, that's fair, lawful, 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.640 evil schemer, it's more neutral evil, but thank you. So, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.840 as our world has grown, according to these philosophers, we've 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.360 become members of a global community, and those natural inclinations 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.480 aren't sufficient to keep things civil because the world is 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.120 just too big. There are too many people, and social 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.520 groups are too fragmented for us sen some morality to compensate. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.680 So they point out three things that have come as 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.560 a result of this. They say that, as as a group, 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.480 human beings have become more loss of verse, meaning that 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.960 we try to protect ourselves against loss rather than pursue improvement. 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.920 So rather than say, hey, we can work to make 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.520 things better, we say, hey, let's make sure things don't 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:27.520 get worse. This would manifest as a status quo bias. Yes, yeah, 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.880 we just don't want things to change, right, or at 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.360 least we don't. Things are pretty lousy I don't want 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.480 them to get worse than they are now, like that 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.679 kind of idea. Also that we focus mostly on our 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.360 immediate social group and the immediate future. So if someone 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.280 is outside your social group, you're less likely to be 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.160 concerned for their well being, and you may also view 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.960 any offense they commit as being greater than you would 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.720 feel if someone within your social group had done the 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.320 same thing. So you you judge people by their actions, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.200 not just on the actions alone, but whether or not 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:04.400 there within our particular social group. E judge outsiders more harshly, exactly. 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.920 And uh, you know, I think it's also interesting that 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.000 they point out the immediate future problem, because that's something 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.440 else that as just sort of an armchair observer, you 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.720 could argue. You see throughout lots of different aspects of 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.880 life where organizations you may feel like an organization is 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.200 making decisions that are for short term benefit but will 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.520 be a detriment in the long term. Well, according to 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.160 these philosophers, that's an issue that's just it goes all 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.120 the way down to the way you treat your your 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.800 immediate friends and family. Uh that it's just innate and 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.920 it's something that we have to work to get past, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.160 And they also say that we feel less responsible if 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.000 we're part of a large group of people causing a 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.000 negative outcome for someone else, then we would if it 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.120 were on an individual basis. So, in other words, if 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.840 I were to act personally in a way that caused 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.080 Lauren harm, I would feel very badly about it, if 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:03.600 I Yes, yes, I'm offended that you think otherwise if 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.040 I were if I were part of a large group 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.160 of people who caused harm to Laura, and I'd probably 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.120 feel badly about it. But maybe not I I because well, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.280 it was the group diffusion of the responsibility. Yes, I guess, 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.360 I mean it was really Josh Clark study in the 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.959 first place. And that guy man that Josh, what a 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.800 jerk face he is. There's a similar phenomenon with reluctance 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.160 to help by people in large groups. You know, if 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.400 you're the only person around to help somebody who's having 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.880 some kind of who needs help, you're probably more likely 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:35.400 to do it than if there are a whole bunch 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.880 of people standing around and you're just waiting for somebody 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.559 else to do something. Yeah, that that I like. There's 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.600 some folks I've listened to on another podcast who kind 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.720 of casually referred to that as someone else is smarter 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.280 than I am. Right, the idea that there's someone else 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.199 who is more capable of handling that situation than you are. 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.120 Therefore you should hold back because you're afraid of making 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.720 the situation even worse, when the reality often is someone 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.959 needs to start to act as soon as possible, and 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.200 you're not likely to make it worse, but through an action, 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.800 you're making it worse. Actually sounds kind of similar to 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:14.240 the status quo bias, very afraid to change things. So 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.400 because of these uh issues, the two philosophers are in 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.880 favor of the idea of moral bio enhancements. And we've 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.600 mentioned that term several times. I guess it's time to 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:29.120 talk about what the heck they are. Okay, So, the 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.160 basic picture of a moral bio enhancement is number one 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.600 doesn't exist yet, right, or well, you might say that 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:41.480 in some very primitive ways, something kind of like a 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.080 moral bio enhancement could exist, maybe in some sort of 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.720 drug form, not in a very precise or advanced way, right, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.720 Not in a way where it would be uh, you know, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.959 applicable to large populations. Certainly not And we're not really 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.800 using those as therapies right now, right, Yeah, But of 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.080 course the second thing is is it well, it would 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.439 be some kind of alteration or modification, So maybe a 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.480 drug therapy, of physical therapy, of some kind of surgery 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.600 and implant would be something you can do to your body, 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.160 to your brain specifically that either guides you or forces 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.240 you to make moral decisions and exhibit moral behavior. You 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.960 could imagine this as anything from sort of a positive 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.600 reinforcement where you your body has a reward system for 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.720 every time you make a decision that is quote unquote moral, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.000 as is as has been determined by whomever has designed 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.560 this bio enhancement, like like a like a little like oh, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.360 like like that that good decision just tasted like chocolate 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.360 a little bit, yeah, sort of sort of thing. Or 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.520 it could be imagine if morality felt as good as 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.880 eating food or having sex or other things that that 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.640 give you rewards in the brain, right. Or it could 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.000 be an aversion approach where choosing the bad thing, the 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.960 immoral choice, would make you feel much worse than you 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.160 would otherwise, like in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when the 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.680 initiative puts that chip in Spike's head and every time 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.400 he tries to attack somebody, he he gets a little 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.480 like like instant migraine. Yeah, I've never heard about that. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.840 It's where we learn in the Buffy verse that a 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.840 computer chip is equivalent equivalent to a human soul. I 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.120 have no problem with that particular part of their mythology. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.599 So that's a good one. Another one would be a 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.800 work being problematic. Yes. Another one would be a clockwork 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.880 orange yes, yes, clock regards the Ludovico treatment. Yes. So 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.360 the very simple explanation is the main character is a 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:41.040 sociopathic criminal teenager who loves to commit ultra violence against 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.319 random people, and he gets sent to prison and subjected 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.000 to this therapy where he's made to watch films of 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.760 violent and lawless behavior and meanwhile is given some kind 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.120 of I don't know, some kind of drug that makes 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.280 him feel horrible and establishes this association in his brain, 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.960 right right. And we'll talk a little bit more about 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.920 that towards the end of this episode, because it does 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:08.600 come into play again. But I do bet some of 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.000 you out there thinking, wait a minute, moral bio enhancement. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.000 But that couldn't happen. We couldn't do that with technology 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:20.240 and I want to say, let's consider Okay, so first 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.960 of all, I think we should all agree morality is 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.520 located in the brain. Whatever morality is, it's something that's 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.760 going on in the nervous system, definitely, pretty much entirely 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.960 in the brain, a chemical and physical process probably, yes, 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.320 and for this reason can be altered by changes to 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.840 the brain. So there's just overwhelming evidence that moral behavior 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.760 is controlled by this complex set of factors in the brain, 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.000 something that was referred to in one scientific review that 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.320 I read as a neuro moral network. And that review 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.040 was by Mario F. Mendez and it's called the Neurobiology 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:59.359 of Moral Behavior Review and Neuropsychiatric Implications in CNS Spectrums 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.560 two thousand line. And so this neuro moral network, assuming 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.720 it exists, there is some kind of network of processes 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.640 in the brain controlling morality. Whatever that is. We can 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.800 call it in euro moral network. You know, if it's 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.720 not exactly the brain locations that are implicated so far 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.440 in euroscience, sure, sure, it's a it's a variable term. 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.720 At this point, we're saying like we're using this term 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.800 to describe something we do not fully understand or can 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.920 fully identify, or even really vaguely understand. Honestly, well, we 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:34.600 do know some things about it, and I want to 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.240 I want to say what those are. So we do 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.680 think that's responsible for a system of emotions and drives 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.320 that guide and motivate our moral decisions. And in a 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.200 lot of ways, if you look at what's going on 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.160 in the brain when people are making moral decisions, there 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.160 seem to be social drives at work. So we have 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.720 parts of the brain that respond to social situations and 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.080 give us cues about how to, you know, act in 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.800 a group or act in relationship to other people. And 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.280 there are emotional feelings that are generated that act as 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.440 sort of like a sort of like cattle prod to 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.720 make us do something. So some areas of the brain 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.880 that are involved in morality are already known. For example, 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.800 Mendez gives the gives the example that a major area 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.440 implicated in response to moral dilemmas is the ventromedial prefrontal 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.480 cortex and it's connected regions, especially on the right side 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.120 of the brain, one of my favorite regions of the brain. Uh, 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.960 there are that this would also implicate the adjacent orbitofrontal 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.560 plus of ventrolateral cortex. I'm sorry to just be saying 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.520 these names, but we should list what they are. The 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.360 AMYG delay and the Dorso lateral prefrontal cortex, also known 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.880 as the bad neighborhood of the brain. Now, these are 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.400 not the only areas of the brain that would be 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.920 involved in moral moral dilemmas, moral reasoning, and moral behavior, 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.160 but these are some of the main ones that have 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.320 been identified. And most of this has been learned through 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.800 f m r I research, which usually looks something like 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.960 this US You put a person in an fMRI machine 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.040 and this tracks activity in different parts of the brain 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.960 in real time based on blood flow. This is often 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:12.919 used to try to figure out what part of the 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.280 brain is somebody using when given a certain type of stimulus, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.200 and the stimulus in this case would be For example, 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.760 you present people with moral dilemmas, you say, would it 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.240 be wrong to play soccer with a human head as 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.760 the ball? Would it be moral to kill a healthy 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.800 man so his organs could be donated to hospital patients 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:35.800 who need them. Or you show people quote morally salient photos. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.760 So you might show people photographs of very bad things 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.920 happening to people and say like this good or bad? 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.640 Getting close to that clock wreck, orange treatment, except, of course, 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.720 not trying to create an aversion therapy in the process. Right, 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.800 They're just trying to understand what parts of the brain 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.399 are you using when we make you think about stuff. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.560 Let's see what happens when we take the puppy a 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.840 exactly So. So, these neural factors that are controlling moral 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:03.400 be behavior are physical, and they can be modified chemically 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:08.760 or mechanically. One example is acquired sociopathy from brain lesions 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.720 or changes in moral behavior linked to fronto temporal dementia 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.400 or f t D. These are examples we know of 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.800 where you make a change to somebody's brain and their 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.600 moral behavior changes. So if you suffer a certain type 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.040 of head injury seemingly out of nowhere, you might become 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.680 a pathological liar who can't stop shoplifting. Right, And it's 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:34.720 not that you know that, Uh, you have just decided, well, 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.239 after I had a near miss with death, I'm just 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.480 gonna start taking stuff because the world owes me no. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:49.720 In other words, that would explain YouTube comments go ahead, No, Well, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.680 there there are faculties in the brain that are involved 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.960 in moral reasoning and moral responses, and injury or damage 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.800 to the brain can cause major changes in how this 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.560 decision making happens, right, right, And and I mean again, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.840 this is where we we look at this as evidence 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:11.240 that morality has ultimately, uh its source within the gray 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.840 matter that's in our skulls. I've seen some people argue otherwise, 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.119 saying that they thought that that was too simplistic. But 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.800 when you look at the evidence of people who have 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.480 suffered some form of condition or injury and there thereafter 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:30.680 their morality has changed significantly, it becomes pretty compelling evidence 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.840 to suggest that morality does have its seat in the brain. Well, 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.160 now I do want to back up and and give 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.439 a shout out to those critics you just mentioned, because 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.080 they might have a point, not that it's not based 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.399 in the brain, but that morality maybe based in in 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.040 the brain in a way that is so generalized and 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.440 complex that it would be difficult to modify it with 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.960 precision changes to certain parts of the brain. Uh. And 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.360 so that is another thing though, But the general principle 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.640 I think is very true. If you can change people's 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:09.240 moral behavior and change the moral salience of events to 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:15.480 people's brains through accidental changes like injuries and illness, you can, 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:20.119 in principle also change it with intentional modifications. It's just 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.720 a question of could we actually figure out what those 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.280 modifications should be, And the answer might be no, right right, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.320 could we figure out those modifications to an extent where 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.959 we actually get the outcome we desire? Right? Well, anything 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:35.679 having to do with the brain is is like this. 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.160 We've probably said twenty eight million times on this show 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.560 that the brain is it's really quite a complicated thing, 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.200 and we still know so little about exactly what's going 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.280 on in there despite our best intentions over the past 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.000 sixty or seventy years. UM. Some of the areas that 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:56.600 are currently being investigated into how we might go about 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.840 doing this, or areas that show promise, I should say, 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.879 rather are stuff like like psychopharmaceuticals UM, you know, using 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.880 drugs to to do stuff to the brain like UM, 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.000 like a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors s s R E 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.280 s UM. There's research that indicates that serotonin may play 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:20.960 a role in reducing reactive or or impulsive aggression. UM. 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.080 So therefore treatment with s SR eyes might induce an 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:29.879 aversion to harming others. You know that Just as a 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.359 side note that brings up another thing we should note 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.760 is that there are also different processes that produce moral 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:43.480 behavior you mentioned, yeah, yeah, and impulsive aggression deliberate. Yeah. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:48.000 So you could have somebody who thinks about murdering somebody 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:50.159 and they come up with a plan and they go 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.159 and do it. Does a minority report territory here, right, 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.800 Versus somebody who just gets into an argument with somebody 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.680 and they can't control their flare up of emotions they 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:04.360 get angry, yeah, and they kill somebody. Both result in homicide. 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.520 But these are very they apparently at least are very 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.240 different things happening in the brain. So that's something that 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.480 we should also be cognizant of absolutely. And uh. And 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.760 along along that that deliberate aggression kind of line, there's 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:21.439 there's another class of drugs, neoprin reuptake inhibitors that have 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.840 been studied in relation to moral behavior and and in 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:29.080 relation to uh, controlling one's own actions, um to not 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.320 going out and doing that thing that you thought to 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:35.119 do that is actually kind of crappy, deliberate decision, deliberate 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.840 decision making, yeah, um uh. And and there's uh back 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.480 back to serotonin though that there are a couple studies 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:45.440 in which, um, some subjects were given citalopram and then 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.240 asked to to to think through hypothetical scenarios or to 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.240 play an economic game. UM. A couple different studies here, 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.560 and the subjects who were on the S s R 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:01.440 I were less likely in the hypothetical scenarios to say 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.640 that it's okay to harm one person for the good 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:11.280 of a group. That was weird weird outcome, um and 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:14.119 and uh. In terms of the economic game, the people 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.359 on S s R S were less likely to UM 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:20.719 to penalize people who were behaving unfairly towards them in 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:25.560 the game. So, I mean these present interesting moral dilemmas 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.000