WEBVTT - Episode 4: Give Me a Sign 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.840 Hi there. Before this episode begins, I want to make 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.200 sure you know that this series gets into some things 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:10.320 that might be triggering to some listeners, specifically depression and suicide. 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:13.240 If you or someone that you know is struggling with 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.160 suicidal thoughts, please seek assistance from a mental health professional, 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.960 or visit the National Institute of Mental Health website at 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.720 n I m H dot ni H dot g o 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.440 V for resources. If you're in crisis right now, you 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:31.120 can call one hundred to seven three talk that's eight, 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.680 or text Hello to one to talk to someone right away. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:44.479 Thanks for listening. Picture you're on a roller coaster. You 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.040 sit down, strap yourself in. It's the moment of decision. 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:53.080 There's no going back. The ride begins. First, there's a 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.240 small drop, just enough to give the car the momentum 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:00.720 it needs before the real start, the big climb. The 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.520 car hooks into the chain with a jolt, and the 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.199 chain begins pulling you up. You rise slowly, so slow, 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.480 it's torturous. Maybe you squeeze your eyes shut, overcome with 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.000 delicious anticipation and just listen to the clanking and clicking 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.319 as you ascend. Or maybe you survey your surroundings, seeing 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.080 farther and farther out. The higher you go either way, 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.319 it begins to feel like the climb will never end, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.880 But eventually it does. You reach the top, you know 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:39.800 what comes next. First, though, the car sits at the apex, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.920 it's as if the whole world has come to a standstill, 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.640 like you're so high up the laws of time no 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:54.200 longer apply. A moment feels like ours. Everything is absolutely motionless. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.720 Maybe you hear some distant screaming far off, some people 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.720 on another ride across the part, but up here it's 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:08.160 like you're suspended and amber a moment of perfect, terrifying stillness. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.160 I think that's kind of where we are with this show. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.520 For the last three episodes, we've been working up the 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.959 coaster together. It's rickety beams starting to prove they can 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.000 hold weight. But now we're here. It's the point where 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.240 I'm supposed to do the big reveal, the big drop. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.720 But before I do, before I finally tell you how, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.160 Yes I did connect with Alice, and yes she did 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.519 indeed sound just like Britney spears, and yes, our conversation 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.360 filled in a missing peace i'd felt since getting alex 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.360 Is Goodbye email. I want to sit here with you 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.760 for a second at the top the pinnacle. I want 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:51.440 to look out at the world we've got in front 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.280 of us and tell you the truth of how I'm 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.240 feeling at this stage in our story. The truth is 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.720 that I'm terrified. Yeah, I'm the guy who walks at 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.720 the front of my friend group at every hunted house, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.440 but I'm also the person who has a hard time 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.760 putting my faith in anything, and right now I'm scared 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:15.959 to take the leap. See. When I was just looking 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:17.960 for Alice, it was like I was playing a game, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:22.640 submitting to one of Alex's fantasies. But now it's real. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.720 Alice is within reach. She's a real person, and I'm 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.560 afraid she might slip between my fingers, just like Alex didn't. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.760 Until now, I've been telling this neat story about trying 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.920 to find the unfindable playing investigator in one of Alex's 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:45.080 fantastical games. But here we are. I found what I 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.240 was looking for, and it feels like it could all 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:53.280 fall apart at any moment. I'm Chris Stedmond and this 0:03:53.360 --> 0:04:11.960 is unread episode four. Give me a sign open still say. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.080 When I first find Alice, the steaks don't feel nearly 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.480 so high. That's because I assume I'm just reaching out 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.680 to a copycat, someone who took her Twitter user name 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:56.200 after she disappeared. I'm looking for someone named Alice, I write, 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.560 someone who sounds like Britney spears and used to appear 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.600 in voice chat rooms with Britney fans many years ago. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:06.640 A friend of mine used to text with her, I say, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.440 and he died, so I'm trying to track her down. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.360 I'm assuming your name was just inspired by her, but 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.240 I'm wondering if you know anything about her or where 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:22.400 I might find her. But to my surprise, she says 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.880 that it could have been her. She also says there 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.680 was another person with a similar user name, though, and 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.479 people would mix them up. She asks who my friend was, 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.480 and I tell her his name was Alex. There are 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.680 only two Alex's in my phone, she says, and I'm 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:44.320 still in touch with both. But then she realizes she 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.320 has a third Alex in her phone. I'm actually talking 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:53.799 to show she when it happens, hold on, Oh my god, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:59.440 I'm sorry she did. What did she say? She said, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.279 I have and more Alex in my contacts, and he 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:08.440 went by Alex Germanada, like Lady Gaga's last name. Could 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.920 that be him? You think question mark, Yeah, that's possible. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:19.040 He always used celebrity names as a pseudonym show. She suggests, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.679 I give Alice the area code for Alex's phone number 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.479 to see if it's a match. A little over nine 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:30.679 hours later, Alice responds again, saying it's not. My heart 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:35.080 sinks he must have been talking with someone else, maybe 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.320 the other person Alice mentioned, the one people sometimes confuse 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:43.960 her with. But then a couple of minutes later she 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:49.520 sends another message, wait, and then, oh my god. Could 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:55.240 he have gone by ambient Ambient short for Ambient Hollow, 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.880 The same name Show, she tells me, was one of 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.000 Alex's first email addresses, the same name he used on 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.799 the Brittany forum when he met Dua. So I asked 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.960 Alice again about the area code, this time for Ambient. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.160 She responds, and it's a match. Just to be sure, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:16.640 I asked her to give me the next three numbers 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:22.240 of his phone number. Again a match there she was. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.120 Just over a year after Alex's death. I found her. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.680 Finding Alice feels like sitting at the top of one 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:39.360 of Alex's beloved coasters, the same mix of euphoria and dread. 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.520 You get right before that drop At first time overjoyed, 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.280 caught up in giddy shock. On some level, I never 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.160 thought i'd actually find her, certainly not as soon as 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.880 I did. But then very quickly the dread rushes in. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.000 I've just broken the news that someone she knew had died. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.480 I had been living with the reality of Alex's death 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.880 for a year, but for her it was brand new information. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.840 Her next messages are devastating. They had been good friends. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.440 She says, she can't believe he's gone. I offer what 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.080 little I can, my sympathy and a willingness to answer 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:25.400 any questions she has. We keep chatting late into the 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.440 night and early morning. At one point I pose the question, 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.400 would she be willing to do an interview so that 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.440 I could ask her about Alex, their relationship, and who 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:40.880 she is. She replies, yeah, okay, I'll do it for him. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.520 I'm overcome. We set a time to talk in a 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.360 few days. We message on and off the next day, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.720 talking about Alex and our grief over his death. The 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.440 day after that, though, I opened my d M s 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:59.640 to see a new message, my heart sinks again. She's 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.360 pulling out she wants to help, but she doesn't want 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:09.160 to do an interview. I understand, I say, emphasizing that 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.720 I don't want her to do anything she's uncomfortable with. 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.640 But I tell her I hope we can still chat 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.400 so I can learn more about her connection with Alex. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.040 I send my response and stuffed my phone back into 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.040 my pocket, terrified that the next time I pull it 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.520 out to look at my d MS, she'll be gone. 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.280 As I wait to hear back from Alice, I'm drowning 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.920 an uncertainty. It feels a little bit like the day 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.800 after I got Alex's goodbye email, when I waited to 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.559 hear if my friend who was prone to disappearing had 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.880 disappeared for the last time. I had no clue what 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.160 to do with myself. The day after getting his email, 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.240 after lying awake in bed most of the night, I 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.280 got up early and just wandered Minneapolis with my dog, 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:59.200 trudging without direction in a days. Eventually, while wandering, my 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.240 mind drifted to Alex's visit to Minnesota. How the one 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.120 thing he wanted to do was ride those indoor coasters 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.160 at the Mall of America. I wanted to feel close 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:11.959 to him, so I decided to go ride the ones 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:17.680 he loved. His favorite was the rock Bottom Plunge. The 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.199 name is funny, but that's not why Alex loved it. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.559 It's probably the most intense ride the mall has to offer. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.959 It begins with a steep climb basically ninety degrees straight 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.160 up to a peak just below the theme park's glass ceiling. 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.120 That peak is followed by a sheer drop, one so 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.760 steep and fast it gives you the momentum you need 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.520 to make it through the loop that follows. It was 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.199 a week day and the mall was pretty empty. There 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.920 was no line, and I basically had the coaster to myself. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.480 As the ride slowly climbed, I felt all my anxiety 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.680 over the unknowns of Alex's death grow. But eventually I 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:01.480 reached the top. It was perfectly quiet and then the drop. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.040 For just a moment, as we plummeted straight down to 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.520 the ground, I felt all my uncertainties leave, like we 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.200 were going fast enough to outrun them. As the coaster 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.440 carried me around the loop, turning the world on its access, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.240 I swore I could hear Alex's laugh so infectious I 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.160 couldn't help but join in After the ride, I went 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.720 to one of the food courts, where I got confirmation 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.160 that they found his body. I stayed there for a while, 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:36.040 my food got cold. Eventually I walked back to the 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.480 theme park in the mall's center, not to ride this time, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:46.880 just to watch the coaster loop again and again. Alex 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.480 had two coaster tattoos, and I'd later commemorate this moment 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.480 by getting one of them while face timing with shows Do, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.880 I got the other. In the months that followed, both 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.559 Beth and show She would visit Minnesota and ride the 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:04.560 same ster with me. It became iconography for our shared grief, 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.319 a totem to the joy Alex brought into our lives, 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.760 to how he could always make us laugh, even in 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.800 the moments when everything felt upside down. While I wait 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.959 for Alice's next message, I go digging back into all 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:24.199 the material Alex left behind. He left a lot, all 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.080 organized for us. Here's show she the keeper of his files. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.400 Everything was very purposeful. He had all of his important 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:39.640 paperwork all labeled. It was very specific. I've never heard honestly, 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.920 and I'm sure it exists, but I've never heard of 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.960 anyone who did so much sort of purposeful planning. It's 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.439 not common. I'm part of so many suicide grief groups, 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.320 and I mean, I haven't even heard of one other 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:58.680 story that's like his. Alex not only ordered all of 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.920 his documents, belongings, and digital files, he also put together 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.160 a bunch of stuff for us, playlists of his favorite 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.080 songs on Spotify, a collection of YouTube videos that made 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.960 him laugh or helped him relax, and a Google folder, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.000 all of which he directed us to, and his goodbye emails. 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.240 The Google folder has a lot of photos from his life, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.240 but there are also a ton of pictures of Brittany 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.120 memes and screenshots of his online antics. It's where I 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.480 found Alex's prying pregnancy Facebook post, and there are also 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.320 grabs of his many suspended Twitter accounts. My favorite was 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.760 the one he made pretending to be customer service for 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.760 six Flags. He began as a parody, but then he 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.240 started actually helping people. Most of the screenshots and memes 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.160 are snapshots of his online play but three of them 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.040 feel very different from the rest. The first of these 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.320 is a meme. It's a close up photo of a 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.080 person whispering into someone's ear, followed by another photo of 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.480 arm hairs standing on end, a common meme for Matt. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.959 The accompanying text, I won't abandon you when your mental 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.200 illness acts up. This was something Alex talked to me 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.360 about several times, how some people only wanted to be 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.160 around him when he was at his most functioning. James 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.400 remembers the time they were getting ready to hang out 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.840 after an extended time apart, and how shortly before he left, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.360 Alex texted him to give him a heads up that 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.440 he wasn't feeling like he would be the life of 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.040 the party that day. He was apologetic and said he 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.000 understood if James didn't want to meet up to hear 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.480 him mentioned that he was self conscious about hanging out 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.760 with me because he wasn't going to be like you 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.320 know on in Big Air quotes um, that he wasn't 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.000 going to be as fun to be around. It broke 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.000 my heart to hear him say that. To feel that 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:45.640 you have to be able to perform just to be 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.360 around people, and that's the only like valid reason to 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.920 see they see to be around you is um, that's tough. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.480 There are two more things that jump out at me 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.800 and Alex's Google folder. One is a quote from the 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.160 Ascent of Humanity, a book by Charles Eisenstein that will 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.800 come back to in a second. The other is a 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.200 news clipping about a British man who took his life 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.080 after he was denied government assistance despite his physical disabilities 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:15.360 and mental illness. Because this man was denied assistance, the 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.520 clipping said, he couldn't afford to eat or pay rent, 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.960 and shortly before he was set to be evicted from 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:26.520 his home, ended up taking his life. While he was alive, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.440 Alex regularly tried to seek out care, often at our urging, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.600 but ultimately felt like he couldn't get the assistance he 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.400 needed in the health care system as it exists right now. 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.400 He also died with a great deal of debt. Leaving 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.800 this news clipping among his photos and memes felt like 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.360 a clear message about how the world treats people who 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.880 struggle about how it sometimes isn't enough to have a 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.000 support system of friends, like Alex did after finding it. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.560 I tell Shoshi about the news clipping that Eisenstein quote 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:02.000 comes up to. I think that was one thing that 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.600 maybe a lot of people didn't really know about him, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:11.880 was how deeply he really felt about society and about 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.040 the way society treated a lot of people, especially those 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:21.960 who were destitute or ill, whether physically or mentally. He 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.200 felt very strongly about that. It actually reminds me. There 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.880 was one other thing in UM the Google folder. It's 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.360 this quote from a book, and it says, we find 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.360 in our culture a loneliness and hunger for authenticity that 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.320 may well be unsurpassed in history. We try to build community, 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.720 not realizing that mere intention is not enough. When separation 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.640 is built into the very social and physical infrastructure of 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.040 our society, to the extent that this infrastructure is intact 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.320 in our lives, we will never experience community. Wow, it 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.920 just made me think about between that and then this 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:02.040 um this screenshot of this news story. I think that 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.680 it was not not a factor in Alex's decision, that 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.920 his life was difficult and the world was not set 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.760 up for someone like him to thrive. I one think 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.720 that that was a factor. And I look at these 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.719 things in the Google folder and I see little like 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.800 breadcrumbs in a way of being like, this is part 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.520 of why I made this decision, you know. Yeah, I 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:31.080 think that he left those things specifically for that reason. 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:36.800 I mean, he didn't just leave some random news article 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.639 or you know, page of a book with all of 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:45.360 these pictures. What he chose to leave was very specific, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:51.080 which does bring back the al you know, I mean, 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.080 he was very specific. UM. I do really think that 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.359 one of the reasons that he did do what he 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:02.320 did was he had a series a tech it for society. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.000 There are a lot of reasons to hate the world 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.040 as it exists right now, especially when you struggle with 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:15.000 mental health. There are just so many obstacles. After Alex died, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:19.199 I couldn't stop thinking about Alice. But I also couldn't 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.120 stop thinking about all the challenges he faced, about how 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.200 there are so many barriers for people who struggle in 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.960 the ways Alex did. And while waiting to hear from 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.960 Alice makes me feel uncertain thinking about Alex's obstacles fills 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.240 me with rage. Whether or not I can talk to Alice. 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.240 I wanted to talk to someone who can help me 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.240 understand how we might better support people in Alex's position. 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.679 Um I v staclo um I use he him pronouns. 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:55.119 I work as hotline program director at trans Lifeline, which 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.919 is a nationwide US trans lad nonprofit that does director 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.520 of US work. I reached out to trans Lifeline for 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.399 a few reasons. Though what first caught my attention about 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.840 them is that they appear to be the only crisis 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.439 line that has a no non consensual intervention policy, meaning 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.800 they will not call the cops on someone who doesn't 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.040 want them to. I V and I discussed why people 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.879 in Alex's situation so often fall through the cracks. We 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.920 talked for a long time, and I'm going to play 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.359 just a little of our conversation without interruption because I 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.800 found what I V shared so helpful. So a big 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:38.560 part of the reason I think why suicidality is viewed 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.080 and presented the way that it is here in particular, 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:47.080 is because realistically speaking, right, let's say, like let's take 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.560 us as trans people, it is a very rational response 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.159 to not want to be alive in a society that 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.440 doesn't want you to be alive. Right, That's a very 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.639 normal thing. But the way that it's portrayed is that 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:06.480 you're having this crazy, irrational moment that will just pass 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.159 with the right amount of intervention and like the right 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.720 amount of like keeping you from doing whatever you feel 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.239 you need to do. And so I think that in 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:19.879 order to address suicidality and address mental health crisis, especially 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.080 like from you know, what's called minority stress, right, Like 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.040 from the experiences that marginalized people have in the society 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.280 day in and day out. It would require society to 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.280 recognize that it is profoundly unjust. Right, It would require 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.760 society to recognize that suicidality and crisis are normal and 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.960 rational responses to the way that people are being treated. 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.600 And that I think is the root of actually addressing crisis. 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.720 Is people need to have social rights, people need to 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.600 have economic rights. Yeah, this is a really reductive way 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.280 of putting it, but it's like making mental health care 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.960 proactive instead of just reactive. Right, And then if you 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.360 have that fundamental understanding, right, I think it's a lot 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.680 easier to build systems that are actually based on empathy 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.800 and based on actual understanding. Um. You know, if you 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.600 look at mental health responses that exist in other countries, 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.560 they don't involve police at all. You know, there's profound 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.040 flaws with every system, there's profound flaws with every type 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.160 of checking in on a person. But I think that 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.280 you know, one of the best things we can do, 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.280 and this is truly you know, it's a band aid 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.640 on a huge, huge, gaping wound of injustice in this country. 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.040 Just be there for each other. What's been your experience 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.360 with this? You know, like, have you had conversations about 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:43.679 other friends that your friend left behind? Obviously, you know, 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.440 one of the things many people experience after someone ends 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.359 their life is feelings of regret or guilt. Is there 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.840 something I could have done differently? I've gone through all 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:56.280 of that um and and I don't want to sort 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.360 of just dismiss those feelings either. I want to take 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.520 them seriously and say, Okay, what would I learn? What 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.720 would I take from this and apply to my relationships 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.440 moving forward? Are there moments when I, you know, I 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.119 wish I would have asked more questions or you know, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.359 responded in another way, And so, you know, I just 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.560 find myself thinking, like, on an individual level, how do 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.960 I want my behavior to be towards the people I 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.119 love moving forward? But also on a systemic level, what 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.000 about this society failed alex? And what would I like 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.199 to see transformed? I guess, yeah, I think those are 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.920 all really good questions. And I think, you know, it's 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:41.080 very easy, right in retrospect to find ways that something 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.000 could have been in your power right to to adjust 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.440 or to change um. And it's useful to think going forward, 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.040 like how can I be more intentional about like listening 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:54.160 to or being there for my friends and loved ones? 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:56.320 You know, what are things that I could be paying 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:59.080 attention to in terms of just being a better source 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:03.639 of support, not necessarily with like the lens towards my 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:05.840 friends might die if I don't do this, but just 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:09.880 in general, right because we're all going through absolutely horrific 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.480 times right now. We're all struggling right now, you know, 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.480 in different ways. In terms of how to have better 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.800 conversations about this. I think it's just a matter of 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.720 putting the blame where it belongs. It's very, very very 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.199 easy for us when we're talking to a person we 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:29.600 care about in crisis, to blame the person in crisis 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:32.200 or to take the onus on yourself right and say, oh, 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.080 there's maybe maybe there's something I can do, because it 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.439 helps you feel in control, It helps you feel like 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.680 there must be something that this person can do to 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.680 pull themselves up by their bootstraps and not feel this way. 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.880 But I think that acknowledging that we exist under very 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:52.280 unjust and deeply traumatizing circumstances especially for marginalized people. UM 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.760 helps us to have more candid, more honest, and in 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.879 the end, more fruitful conversations about how to survive it. 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.120 A big part of why I'm so scared Alice might 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:07.440 disappear is that we've connected online, a space that can 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.760 be immensely freeing, as it was for Alex, but that 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:15.399 also makes it easy to disappear. I asked Ivy about 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.720 why people seek support in spaces where they can be anonymous, 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.840 like the Internet. If you know that there is a 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:24.879 possibility that if you say the wrong thing, somebody's going 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:28.879 to come and either interact with you against your consent, 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.200 or take you away somewhere, bring law enforcement to your door, 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:34.800 you're just simply less likely to trust that resource, and 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.920 you're less likely to be honest with somebody who's supposed 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:41.800 to be supporting you. So truly, that's really the foundational 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:47.720 element of that trust. Ultimately, I think that's why Alex 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.720 went online in search of anonymous spaces where he could 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:53.280 share what he was struggling with in ways he didn't 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:55.800 even always share with those of us who knew him offline. 0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:00.960 He could trust them to keep his secrets. It's also 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.639 why I want to talk to Alice, not to ask 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.399 for his secrets, but to find out if that's true, 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:10.240 if they shared that kind of trust. But I completely 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:15.040 understand that she has no reason to trust me. I 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:17.840 tell the Thor Daniels group that Alice says she's pulling 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:21.160 out of our interview. Hoping to put her at ease, 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:24.000 do I records a video appealing to her directly for 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.159 me to pass along. It opens with him holding a 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:30.959 banana to his ear like a phone. Oh hey, banana, 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:34.199 Alice A long time not see? This is actually not 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:38.119 a prop, but I do commedy well. I'm here to 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.399 give you pros and cons of being on Where's Alice 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:45.040