1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Surprise, we're back a week early, and this time we're 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: doing something a little different. I'm talking about a special 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: takeover episode from the Longest Shortest Time. That's another show 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: in the Stitcher family, all about parenting. I was a 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: guest on the show last year. I talked with Hillary Frank, 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: who is the host, all about being a single mom 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: after my husband Jay died almost twenty years ago. Now 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Hillary and her team are out with a new series 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: all about workplace discrimination against working moms, and that's the 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: subject I cared deeply about since much of my career 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: was spent as a working mom. And today we're bringing 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: you the first episode in the series. You'll hear from 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: former Massachusetts Governor Jane Swift. Did you know she's the 14 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: first American governor to give birth while in office, which, 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: frankly kind of surprised me. But anyway, she talks about 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: her experience with workplace discrimination, and you'll also be hearing 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: from listeners talking about what happened to them. So let's 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: get to it. When Jane Swift was twenty five, she 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: did something most women her age don't do. She ran 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: for state Senate. This was back in western Massachusetts. One 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: day before the election, she went to a small town 22 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: in her district to talk to a newspaper reporter. It 23 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: was a little bit of an older guy, and we 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: sat down and we started going through the typical biographical data. Um, 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, how old was I? Where was I from? 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: Progressed too? Was I married? Jane was used to that question. 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: Her answer was no. This is when it started to 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: get a little odd. Uh. This reporter said to me, 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: did I have a boyfriend? Um? At this point I 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: felt a little bit like my mother may have called 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: him because this was a big concern of hers as well. UM. 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: I was actually pretty proud of myself because for the 33 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: first time in many years I was able to answer yes. Um. 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: But his next question was really my first clue to 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: just how strange my future would become as a young 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: woman candidate seeking office, because when I told him yes, 37 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: rather than going on to talk about taxes and my 38 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: plans for local aid and improving public education, he asked 39 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: me how serious my relationship was. Jane was like, why 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: does he care that? I said, well, I'm not sure, 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: but if you want to call and ask him and 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 1: let me know, that would be great. Uh. It did 43 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: not dissuade him. Uh. He said to me, Well, at 44 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: some point, I assume you're going to get married, and 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: if you get married and start a family, what will 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: that mean for your constituents in your career in the 47 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: state Senate. I was twenty five years old, and I 48 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: was probably for one of the first times in my life, 49 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: rendered speechless. I had not actually thought about that question 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: all that much, and I couldn't believe he was asking me. 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: But as the Google search that you may have done 52 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: on me will prove, that was a question that would 53 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: become pretty consistently asked of me and become a reality, 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: uh in my political life. But that was the first clue, 55 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: the first clue that Jane would face discrimination as a 56 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: working mom. Except back then she wasn't even a mom yet. 57 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Let me say that again. Jane was getting questioned about 58 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: her ability to do her job well as a mother 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: before she even knew she'd be a mother. This is 60 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: the longest shortest time. I'm Hilary Frank and this episode 61 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: is the first in a super exciting series or launching 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: right here right now about discrimination against working mom. It's 63 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: a real mother. Yeah, that's commentary on my part, but 64 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: it's also what we're calling the series It's a Real Mother. 65 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: We're going to spend four whole episodes looking at this problem, 66 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: figuring out why it exists and what we can do 67 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: to solve it. In this episode, we're going to take 68 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: a look at what discrimination against working moms actually is, 69 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: how people get away with it, and what happens when 70 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: it's not behind closed doors but in plain view. That's 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: what Jane Swift's story is all about. Her story is 72 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: groundbreaking and it's got some serious surprises. But to really 73 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: get this series started, first we need to set the stage, 74 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: and so my producer, Abigail Keel is here to help 75 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: me break down what's really going on in the world 76 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: of working moms. Hey Abigail, Hey Hillary, So, Abigail, isn't 77 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: discrimination at Lee Goal, Like, why are we even talking 78 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: about this? Why are we even doing this series? Right? 79 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: Are there laws to protect you? The good news is 80 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: there are laws. One of those lawses Title nine, which 81 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: you've probably heard of, and that law broadly protects against 82 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of discrimination based on sex, and specifically, there's 83 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: an amendment within Title nine called the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, 84 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: which makes it illegal to not hire somebody based only 85 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: on the fact that they're pregnant. And if you do 86 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: hire somebody and they become pregnant, you have to provide 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: them with accommodations if they can no longer perform the 88 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: duties of their job. Um, so light duty, some stuff 89 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: like that. There's also a law that applies to breastfeeding 90 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: in the workplace, So this is another area where discrimination 91 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: can happen. And actually, thanks to the Affordable Care Act, 92 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: now employers must provide a space and break for new 93 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: moms to express breast milk if they choose to do 94 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: that when they come back to work. So it's not 95 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: just a room. Not just a room they have to provide. 96 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: They also have to give the time right exactly, and 97 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: it has to be a space that locks. It's not 98 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: supposed to be in the bathroom. Um. But one kind 99 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: of caveat to this law is that it only applies 100 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: to companies that have more than fifty employees, So a 101 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: small company or if you work for a company in 102 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: like some sort of capacity where you're a private contractor 103 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: or something like that, this law wouldn't protect you. Okay, 104 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: what else, So the other area that kind of comes 105 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: into play here is UH paid leave an unpaid leave, 106 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: And the law that we have nationally that applies here 107 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: is f m l A, the Family and Medical Leave Act, 108 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: which we've all heard about, UM, and this law entitles 109 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: employees to unpaid leave, so that could be used for 110 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: like maternity leave, if you've been an employee for at 111 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: least twelve months and worked at least fifty hours in 112 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: that year, which is about five hours per week. And 113 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: that's only for companies with fifty or more employees. So 114 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: if you come in and you were hired when you 115 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: were pregnant, and you come back to work, then you're 116 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: not entitled to any paid leave or any unpaid leave legally. Federally, 117 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: a lot of companies have their own maternity leave policies, 118 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: their own sickly policies, family leave UM. Some states have 119 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: different policies, but according to our government, UM, this would 120 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: not apply to you. Got it. And you know the 121 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: other thing is that there's a lot of research about 122 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: discrimination against moms in the workplace that shows that the 123 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: ways mothers are discriminated against are really hard to pin down, 124 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: So they can be things like they're just not promoted 125 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: as often, they're not paid to the same level that 126 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: men are paid to. But you know, there are ways 127 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: that companies can defend those decisions and say, well, we 128 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: just thought, you know, this other person was a better employee. 129 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: And so this kind of discrimination really quickly becomes very 130 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: insidious and very hard to really understand when it's happening 131 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: inside of a workplace culture that just doesn't value mothers 132 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: as highly as it might value other employees. And we're 133 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: gonna get into a lot of that research actually in 134 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: our next episode, but just know it's there, right, And 135 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: we've also had a lot of listeners right into us 136 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: for years, right, they've been telling us stories of workplace discrimination, 137 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: and we also put out a call recently asking for 138 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: more stories. So what have we heard? So thank you 139 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: to everybody who reached out, and also we are sorry 140 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: that this has happened to you. But um, we heard 141 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 1: from people across the whole country, so you know, Florida, Wisconsin, 142 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: West coast, East coast, small towns, big towns. We even 143 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: had some international listeners chime in. And you know, these 144 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: are people who work in a whole myriad of jobs, 145 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: so teachers, people who work in offices. We heard from 146 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: someone in a factory, we heard from some academics. These 147 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: were full time jobs, part time jobs atthing in between. 148 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: So you brought a couple of cases to tell me 149 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: about today, right, that's right? So who are we going 150 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: to hear about? So I want to start by walking 151 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: through a couple of stories that I think illustrate really 152 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: well some key aspects of discrimination and how it can 153 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: feel when it happens to you. First, as a woman 154 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: named Jessica. She lives here in New York, and before 155 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: she had her baby, she and her wife decided that 156 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: they both go back to work. Jessica worked at a bank. 157 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: She didn't have her college degree, but she did really 158 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: like her job and her team. Two days after coming 159 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: back from maternity leave, Jessica was laid off. Her boss, 160 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: who was female and child list told her that they 161 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: eliminated her position. But Jessica thinks being a mom had 162 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: something to do with it. I think this because she 163 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: said on several occasions, Oh, won't it be better now 164 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: for you though? Because now you can spend so much 165 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: more time with your baby, and being a mom is 166 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: so hard and it takes up at least a third 167 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: of your life. You don't want to miss all of 168 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: those great things that your kid is going to do 169 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: and blah blah, blah blah. So Jessica's company offered her 170 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: a severance package, which she decided to take, and she 171 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,599 Speaker 1: used the money to pay for a babysitter for the 172 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: first few months of her daughter's life. And with that time, 173 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: Jessica finished her degree and she started applying for new jobs. 174 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: But almost a year later, she still hasn't found anything, 175 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: and now that all that severance money is used up, 176 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,599 Speaker 1: Jessica is taking care of her daughter at home. I 177 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: can't tell you how hard it's been to have a 178 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: baby and then also lose your livelihood and your sense 179 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: of professional identity. Um. And I felt really strange about 180 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: taking the severance. I really struggled with that decision of 181 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: whether to do that or whether to fight it legally 182 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: or I felt like it was selling out and I 183 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: still kind of do. And of course we should just 184 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: say that obviously every kind of mom is great, working 185 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: at home, working out an office, stay at home mom. 186 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: We're not judging, but it seems like for Jessica what 187 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: she wanted was to be a working mom. That's right. Yeah, 188 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: And you know, Jessica actually had enough information in this 189 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: situation that she could have probably brought a case against 190 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: her employer, but she said that the reason she decided 191 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: not to were Actually, there's a couple of reasons. One 192 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: was that she kind of needed this money from her severance. 193 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: She had just lost her job, um. But the other 194 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: was that she felt really overwhelmed. She had just had 195 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: a baby, she had just lost her job, she was 196 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of transitions, and the thought of 197 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: launching into a lawsuit that could last for who knows 198 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: how long, cost who knows how much, all of that 199 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: was just too much for her to think, Yeah, exactly, 200 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: and really, the only way to prove that something discriminatory 201 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: happened to you is to take it to court, which 202 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: is a big castle. Yes, this is a part of 203 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: the equation when we wonder why more people don't step 204 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: forward with these kinds of accusations. It's not that the 205 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: discrimination isn't happening, it's just that it's not being recorded, 206 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: right right, Okay, So um, let's hear about another mom. Alright. 207 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: So this next mom is a mom in Oregon. Her 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: name is Elizabeth, and she is a lawyer. She landed 209 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: a job at a really big law firm that she'd 210 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: been trying to get into for a long time, and 211 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: shortly after she found out that she was pregnant. When 212 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: she told one of the partners at this law firm 213 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: about it, he said, oh, that's going to be hard 214 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: on your career, which was upsetting to hear, as he 215 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: was an owner and therefore essentially responsible for whether or 216 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: not it would be hard on my career. And I 217 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: told the managing partner what he had said, and he 218 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: tried to reashare me that that's not exactly what he 219 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: had meant, and that you know, he would talk to 220 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: him and take care of it, and that was inappropriate, 221 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: but then proceeded to ask me if I was intending 222 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: to turn to work at all, and I just, um, 223 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: I thought, I'm in trouble. But Elizabeth did come back 224 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: to work, and she worked really hard. She put in FaceTime. 225 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: She ended up being the first chair in a big trial, 226 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: which meant she was just in charge of that case. 227 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: And at that trial she decided to ask the judge 228 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: for pumping brakes, which she was granted once the trial 229 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: actually started. I got that break the very first day. 230 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: Um for the first break, and then never again for 231 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: the full amount of time that I had asked for. 232 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: The judge always gave me twenty minutes or less, um, 233 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: and at one point resumed the jury trial without me. Um. 234 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: And I'm sure she did it with the okay of 235 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: my co counsel. Um. But you know, to walk into 236 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: a room after rushing through the pumping process in a 237 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: different room in the courthouse and racing back to my courtroom, 238 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: and to walk in and see a room full of 239 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: pep who have proceeded without me, it made me feel 240 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: as though perhaps there really isn't room for working mothers 241 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: in the law. So Elizabeth actually left litigation after that. Um. 242 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: She's still a lawyer, but she works in a different 243 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: field where she has a more family friendly workplace. You know. 244 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, like at a law firm, you would 245 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: think that lawyers would know better than to discriminate. Yeah, 246 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: it's unfortunately ironic. Um. The thing that I take away 247 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: from Elizabeth's story is that you know, she she left 248 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: like she got out of that situation, which is awesome. 249 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: And a lot of the moms that I heard from 250 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: ended up leaving the situations where they were discriminated against, 251 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: mostly on their own accord. But the sad part about 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: that is that those jobs in those workplaces still exist 253 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: and they're just open for the next person to come 254 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: in and be discriminated against. Those employers aren't being punished, 255 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: they're not being told that what they did was wrong, 256 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: and that is it. I think we need to kind 257 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: of figure out how to deal with And we're gonna 258 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: be talking about like a lot of this stuff in 259 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: the rest of the series. Right right now, you brought 260 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: a collection of voices for us to just hear kind 261 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: of the variety of the types of discrimination that that 262 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: mother's face. That's right. So, without further ado, I was 263 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: just dropping a note to talk about being a working 264 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: mom and oh goodness, is it a daily challenge. I 265 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: found out I was pregnant with my second child. I 266 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: show my pregnancies very early on. It was winter. I 267 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: walked into the head of school's office with my coat on. 268 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: I could see the contract laying on the table. It 269 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: was very clear that I was to be given an offer. 270 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: I took my coat off to have a seat at 271 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: the table, and I could see both the head of 272 00:15:52,480 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: school and his assistant audibly gasp because they noticed my stomach. 273 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, sometime I wanted you to work an extra 274 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: hour too, and you're stuck between trying to figure out 275 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: should you stay or should you go? Or am I 276 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: going to be on the verge of losing a job 277 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: just because I have a child. I found out that 278 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: there was another girl interviewing for the same position that 279 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: I was. She was a few months pregnant at the time, 280 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: and a couple of people told me that I was 281 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: definitely going to get the position over her, even though 282 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: she was more qualified on paper than I was, because 283 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: she was pregnant, which was kind of funny because no 284 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: one knew that I was pregnant. Um. You know, I 285 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: got the job with a lot of guilt. Um Before 286 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: I got pregnant, I was getting the grants, the publications. 287 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: Everyone I met, from my advisers to people at conferences 288 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: told me they were expecting a lot from me, wanted 289 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: to collaborate, We're interested in future work. Once I got pregnant, though, 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: and once the new spread, these alphas began to dry up, 291 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm currently in a situation at a small startup. They 292 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: talk a big game, you know, newly decorated mother's room, 293 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: flexible hours, maternity leave, But when it comes to salary review. 294 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: I feel as though my flexibility is being held against me. 295 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: I have been promised a job and told after I 296 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: had um our little girl that they didn't want me 297 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: to have to divide my attention between being a new 298 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: mom and having a different position. And it wasn't something 299 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: that was up for discussion. It was just told where 300 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: in this nature center am I going to pump? My office, 301 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: which was about fifteen space shared with four other people. 302 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: There was the staff bathroom in the musty basement, a 303 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: freezer room with freezers full of dead animals. Um. It 304 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: took every thing in me not to scream when the 305 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: first suggestion was the bathroom. The area that I was 306 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: provided to pump was actually the bathroom, and my company 307 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: had purchased a ping pong table and placed it right 308 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: outside said bathroom. So when I returned from my first 309 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: maternity leave, um, my manager was very hard on me. 310 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: She had actually taken over my role when I was 311 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: gone and then pretty much refused to give it back 312 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: to me and just made me feel like the fact 313 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: that I was a mother and working was something that 314 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: was taking away from my ability to work. And what 315 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: I was told, uh in a closed door meeting with 316 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: HR was maybe I should move on. I was able 317 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: to leave my job because I have a partner who 318 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: supports me. Um. And yet at the same time, my 319 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: partner has never had to answer for whether he's still 320 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: as good an employee as a parent, and he's never 321 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: had anybody question that I've had to reevaluate my entire 322 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: self worth. Um. You know, there's a lot to be done. Yeah, 323 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot to be done right, But there's also 324 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: a lot you can do right, Abigail, And that's what 325 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: we've discovered in doing this series. And over the course 326 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: of the next few episodes, we're going to talk to 327 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: a work expert. We're going to visit a workplace where 328 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: they're getting things right. We're going to get an international perspective, 329 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: and we are going to talk to a mom in 330 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: a low wage job. So we've got a lot we're 331 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: going to cover. But first today we're going to pick 332 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: up with Jane swift story. She's a woman we heard 333 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: from at the top of the show, UM, and I 334 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: think her story is really informative because it's not about 335 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: employers discriminating against an employee. It's about how kind of 336 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: we as a society discriminate against working moms. We will 337 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: be back with that story in just a minute. Stay 338 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: with us. We are back with the story that we 339 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: began at the top of the show today about a 340 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: politician named Jane Swift, which is, you've got to admit, 341 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: just the perfect politician name, and what would you like 342 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: me to call you in this show? I would prefer 343 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: for you to call me Jane, although I do understand 344 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: that governor is a title that I'm very proud of 345 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: and that I earned. But Jane is preferable. Okay, great, 346 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: I also answered a mom, but that's not preferable. That 347 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: would be inappropriate for me to call you. Yes, in 348 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: a little weird that's right, Governor. Jane won that state 349 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: senence heat back, and a decade later she had worked 350 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: her way up to running the state of Massachusetts. She 351 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: was the first woman to hold that office and yes, 352 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: the first mom to do it. And you know, I 353 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: gotta say I was totally surprised by how open Jane 354 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: was when I interviewed her. I mean, she's a politician, 355 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: so I expected her to give me like politician answers, 356 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: but she didn't, and I think that's because she's still 357 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: upset about how she was treated. She wants to talk 358 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: about it so that maybe workplace discrimination against moms can change. 359 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: Jane's path to political stardom began in college when she 360 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: was an intern working for the state senator in her district, 361 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: Peter Webber. Shortly after she graduated, he hired her as 362 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: his legislative aid. She helped him develop his positions on 363 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: important bills. She met with constituents and local officials. She 364 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: was basically the glue between Senator Webber and the people 365 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: he was representing. Jane loved it, and Senator Webber took notice. 366 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: He sought me out and told me that he had 367 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: decided not to run for family reasons, and he thought 368 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: that I would be a great successor so. I know. 369 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: Politicians say family reasons as a cover a lot of 370 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: the time, but apparently Senator Webber's family reasons were real. 371 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: He wanted to spend more time with his young children, 372 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: and him choosing Jane I was also exceptional. Research shows 373 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: that women rarely get this kind of shoulder tap from 374 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: men in politics. They don't get invited to the party. 375 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: Jane enthusiastically said yes, and little did we know would 376 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: start a path for some historic accomplishments. But I have 377 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: to say that had I known at the time uh 378 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: the gender barriers and the degree to which people would 379 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: find it odd that a young woman would have an 380 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: ambition to serve in an elected political office, or how 381 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: difficult it was perceived to be, I may not have 382 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: done it. And so the real gift that Senator Weber 383 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: gave me, beyond his terrific support and some great advice, 384 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: was he made it seem like a normal thing to 385 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: do for a twenty five year old woman to run 386 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: for the first political office, to be the state senator 387 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: from my hometown. Jane won that election as a Republican, 388 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: she got right to work on her main issues, family 389 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: and education. She focused on improving Massachusetts public education system, 390 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: helping small businesses, and promoting environmental protection for the part 391 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: of the state that she represented. And along the way, 392 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: Jane met a guy, a different guy from the boyfriend 393 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: the reporter had grilled her about. This new guy was 394 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: a dairy farmer named Chuck, And for all you nosey 395 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: reporters wondering how serious this relationship was, they did get 396 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: married in the middle of Jane's second term in the 397 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: state Senate. You know. When I was little, I was 398 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: the you know, have ten kids and um, have a 399 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: big family. I outgrew that, luckily, um pretty quickly. But UM, 400 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: I always assumed that I was going to be a mother, 401 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: And I guess I probably assumed i'd be a mother 402 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: like my mom, who stayed at home, uh, you know, 403 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: was the girl Scout leader, was the uber volunteer. But 404 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: when I got into politics, I realized I was good 405 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: at politics and it began to be a realistic career. 406 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: And by the time my husband and I started to 407 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: think about having a family, UM, my career was starting 408 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: to take off. Jane had her eye on a congressional seat. 409 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: She lost that race, but kept moving up the political 410 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: ladder in appointed jobs. Things were good. Jane was in 411 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: her early thirties and she decided it was time to 412 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: start trying to conceive. But right around when she started trying, 413 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: Jane got a phone call. It was from the Governor 414 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: of Massachusetts, Paul Salucci. He was running for re election 415 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: and he wondered if Jane might want to be his 416 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: running mate. And I told Governor Salucci that I was 417 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: potentially pregnant, but I wouldn't know obviously for a little while. Um, 418 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: but that starting a family I didn't feel like was 419 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: something I could delay, certainly not for another four years. Now. 420 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: Jane had not even taken a pregnancy test yet. Some 421 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: people don't even tell their partners this early that they 422 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: might be pregnant. But Jane told the governor it was 423 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: a ballsy move. Well you know what I mean. He 424 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: didn't bat an eye. He said, you know, lots of 425 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: women are having babies while they work, and we'll figure 426 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: it out. You did you get the impression that he 427 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: saw it as a plus? I truly believed, and I 428 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: believed this throughout our partnership. He saw me as a 429 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: person and braced Uh, you know, a young woman in everything, 430 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: all the complexities of that running for office, and it 431 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: turned out that you were pregnant, And so how did 432 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: you feel about it? Wasn't an easy choice for you 433 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: to decide to run? Yeah, because I was so stupid, 434 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: I you know, just assumed, oh, I'm pregnant, no big deal, 435 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: as only somebody who's never been pregnant before it can be. 436 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: How hard could it be? The famous last words from 437 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: a woman who proceeded within about eight days of that 438 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: to throw up every single night for almost the rest 439 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: of my pregnancy. So so yeah, pretty hard. So first, 440 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: let me say I was very healthy. I just threw 441 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: up every night. Um. I also had a gluten intolerance, 442 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: which sounds so incredibly normal sitting here in Seen, But 443 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, there was not a McDonald's on 444 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: the planet who could serve a hamburger without a bun 445 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: without having to consult like supervisors three stores away. Um. 446 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: So traveling around Massachusetts pregnant, trying to eat food that 447 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: didn't have gluten in it, being sick, tear stomach, and 448 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: not being able to chew on saltines wasn't easy. Um. 449 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: A funny story that before anybody knew I was pregnant, 450 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: this nice nurse suggested to me that because I couldn't 451 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: chew on saltines, that if I cut fresh lemon wedges 452 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: and just dabbed them on my tongue, Um, that that 453 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: might actually keep me from throwing up on people and 454 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: parking lots. And UM, I was at some event with 455 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: the governor, you know, sneaking back to my car and 456 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: like just licking the crap out of a lemon, and 457 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: this woman came up to me and she's like you're pregnant, 458 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: and I got this awful look on my face because 459 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: it was too soon to tell anybody. Um, and I'm 460 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: like how, She's like, nobody licks lemons unless there pregnant. 461 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, nobody licks lemons when they are 462 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: pregnant except for me. And I'm not admitting to anything. 463 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: And then there was a St. Patrick's Day parade in 464 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: Holyoke where I almost lost us the election because in 465 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: the gathering beforehand, in this smoke filled bar with the 466 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: Firefighters Union, I almost blew the endorsement because I wouldn't 467 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: drink a beer, both because I had a gluten intolerance 468 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: and because I was pregnant. When did the public find 469 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: out that you were pregnant? Uh? Write it about three 470 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: and a half months, and I expected it to be 471 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: the biggest non event of all times. I was married, Um, 472 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: I was thirty four years old. Um, and my husband 473 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: and I were having our first child. Right, nice little story. Unfortunately, 474 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: that wasn't how it played out. Instead, it became national 475 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: news headlines read birth of a campaign and pregnant candidate 476 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: discovers she's an issue, And so it had become a 477 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: pretty major question. You know, should I still run. Um, 478 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: Was this a good idea? Was it going to hurt 479 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: Governor Saluci? Was it going to help Governor Salucci? It 480 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: was also if you were doing the math earlier. One 481 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: of the issues was I was actually do right around 482 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: the election day. Um, so that complicated matters a little bit. 483 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: Jane quickly found she was caught in the middle of 484 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: a war. Passions ran crazy high. I remember this one 485 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: woman in particular who called my her words, selfish decision 486 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: to decide to continue to run. She categorized it as 487 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: our generation's Vietnam. So those who would choose to serve 488 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: by meaning that stay home with their young children, and 489 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: those like me who would shure are sponsibilities. That one 490 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: was from a conservative female activist. Jane was shocked. You know, 491 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: I was a Title nine generation kid, right. We got 492 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: the same uniforms in high school as the boys got. 493 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: We didn't get the same crowds. But um, I believed 494 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: if I worked hard enough, I could do pretty much 495 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: anything I wanted to. I hadn't hit a glass ceiling 496 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: yet because I hadn't risen high enough, and all of 497 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: a sudden, all of those things that I believed, um, 498 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: and frankly a lot of debates like the mommy wars 499 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: that I had not paid any attention to. I was 500 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: right in the middle of and totally unprepared. Jane gave 501 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: birth to her daughter, Elizabeth, just a few weeks before 502 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: the election. Since she was campaigning, she wasn't actually employed, 503 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: so her maternity leave, if you can call it that, 504 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: consisted of a two week break during which she recovered 505 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: from her C section. Jane was now officially the thing 506 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: that that reporter dude had been so agitated about almost 507 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: ten years earlier. She was a working mom, and not 508 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: just any working mom, a lieutenant governor mom. This was 509 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: a position where the public had every right to criticize 510 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: her job performance, which they did. And it wasn't just 511 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: extreme Vietnam obsessed conservatives who had a problem with Jane working. 512 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: It was male politicians on both sides of the aisle. 513 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: It was journalists, her constituents. But the criticism that seemed 514 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: to hit Jane the hardest was criticism from other mothers. 515 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: Every time, you know, there was an article written about 516 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: me being pregnant. Um, it seemed like they would go 517 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: to some wealthy, suburban place where all the moms, who 518 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: frankly were much thinner than me and much blonder than me, 519 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 1: and didn't work. We're doing yoga with their children who 520 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: are going to grow up to be perfect. Would talk about, 521 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, the great decisions they made and why they 522 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: questioned whether or not I was making a good decision. 523 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: And I'm being a little bit facetious that, um, you know, 524 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: I think one of the really hard things for me 525 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: is I could have very easily not the thin and 526 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: blonde part um, but all the other parts my life 527 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: could have taken a couple of different turns and I 528 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: could have been them. And so I was making this 529 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: choice to take on this really high profile, demanding work 530 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: and you know, how dare I Or if I did dare, 531 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: then everything that came along with it, with balancing work 532 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: and family was my problem. And certainly the public shouldn't 533 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: have to, you know, make any concessions or do anything 534 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: differently to accommodate a mother with young children. One thing 535 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: the public wasn't willing to accommodate was Jane's living situation. 536 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: She and Chuck had moved to Boston to be closer 537 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: to the heart of the Commonwealth after Elizabeth was born. 538 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: They decided it was smart for Chuck to stay home 539 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: and be Elizabeth's primary caregiver. It made financial sense to 540 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: but Boston was far from both of their families, who 541 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: lived all the way on the western side of the state. 542 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: So when their daughter was about a year old, they 543 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: made the tough decision to move back to western mass 544 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: where they would have more support from grandparents and extended family, 545 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: and Jane would just have to commute to the city 546 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: for work two and a half hours each way. When 547 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: people would encounter me and my mother role, they would 548 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: be so surprised that I enjoyed being a mother, and 549 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: it was just so striking to me that they couldn't 550 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: seem to reconcile that I could be this successful or 551 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: at least have achieved some level of success in my 552 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: professional life and still embrace my role as a mother, UM, 553 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: And that vexed me personally. UM. I think sometimes, you know, 554 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: it really hurt my feelings, but I think it really 555 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: impacted me, um publicly in my ability to do the job. 556 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: It was like you had to either choose to be 557 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: perceived as the competent leader or the caring mother, but 558 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: so many times people couldn't believe that you are both. 559 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: You know, I think, Um, in the workplace, you know, 560 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: the discrimination we hear about mostly is discrimination that comes 561 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: from a boss or a hiring manager, and there are 562 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: laws in place to try to prevent that discrimination. But 563 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: when you're a politician, um, it's the people like the public, 564 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: who are discriminating against you, and it can there aren't 565 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: laws about that. It can be out in the open um. Right. 566 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: So does that feel unfair, like there's no there that 567 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: there were no laws protecting you. Well, here's here's the 568 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: other thing. You could never say it's unfair. The minute 569 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: any political figure says anything is unfair, you are doomed. 570 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: That is the worst defense ever. So even when it 571 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: was unfair, I couldn't say it was unfair because the 572 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: minute I did, like, I could just write those terrible 573 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: headlines and I'd be a cry baby. You know what 574 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: I have tried in my post political life to do 575 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: is when I see things now that are unfair and 576 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: I can say it now, I say the things that 577 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: are unfair happening to other women of both parties, um, 578 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: because I know they can't say it themselves. What a game. 579 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is also important is 580 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: I put a lot of pressure on myself to be perfect, 581 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: and two things I internalized that didn't always work to 582 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: my advantage. One was I could never make mistake, Like 583 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: God forbid I ever messed up. Then every you know 584 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: employer out there, who, even though it was illegal to that, 585 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: was just waiting note for a reason not to promote 586 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: that other mom with little kids was going to use 587 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: me as a cautionary tale, at least in my head. Um. 588 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: But also secondly, I didn't want to give anybody an 589 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: excuse um to imply that any decision was the right 590 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: decision or wrong decision. So um, as an example, my 591 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: husband stayed at home. There were a lot of times when, um, 592 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: it would have been a really easy political defense for 593 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: me to certain questions that frankly I should have never 594 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: been asked, and it was unfair for them to ask me. 595 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: Where I could have said, you know, I have a 596 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: stay at home parent, and there would have been a 597 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: certain uh constituency group it would have been appeased by that. 598 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: I never wanted to say that because that implied that 599 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: I was buying into the argument that the only way 600 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: to do parenthood right was to have one parents stay 601 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: at home. And I don't believe that it was what 602 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: worked for us at a particular point in time. But 603 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: I just felt this really strong senses someone who was 604 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: achieving some first that I shouldn't ever say something that 605 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,479 Speaker 1: implied there's one way to do this, because that would 606 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: have just a made it worse for everybody who came 607 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: after me, but potentially would have just not advanced the 608 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: issues um that I had come to realize still needed 609 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: to make a lot of progress. Jane struggled in both 610 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: of her roles as mom and politician. Once Chuck got 611 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: sick and Jane was alone with Elizabeth, Jane woke up 612 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night to the baby screaming. 613 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: Elizabeth had a diaper rash, so Jane grabbed some cream 614 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: and put it on the baby's bottom, but that just 615 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: made the baby scream louder. Jane was like, what is 616 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: going on? Then she realized the cream was actually ben Gay, 617 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: you know that sort of icy feeling pain reliever for 618 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: grown ups. Jane felt terrible at the office. Jane felt 619 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: like she had so much to prove, and she worked 620 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: incredibly hard. Looking back, she thinks maybe too hard. She 621 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: worked through her lunch break, she asked to be fully 622 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: briefed on every single issue, attend every event. She helped 623 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: implement an education reform bill running between about a hundred educators. 624 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: But Jane's time at the desk came at the expense 625 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: of family time. Well, you know, balancing work and parenthood 626 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: is really challenging, um, and you had a really high 627 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,439 Speaker 1: profile job. Do you think that any of these fears 628 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: that people were expressing were warranted? So I didn't. I 629 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: was not perfect every single day. There were definitely days 630 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: when I was not a hundred percent. So if the 631 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: measure was is Jane Swift a day? Um, then the 632 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: criticisms might have been valid. But what isn't valid is 633 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: nobody ever applied that to guys for that or other reasons. 634 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: There are a lot of guys who show up hungover 635 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: UM for work, or who take time off to golf 636 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: or frankly, um. Here's an even better one, people who 637 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: openly guys openly leave for family events and actually get 638 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: credit for it because they're not giving that day to 639 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: their job. And our perception of that and how we 640 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: evaluate that is totally different. So I hate if what 641 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: you're getting at is this, can you have it all? 642 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: I hate that question. I will never engage, nor will 643 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: I ever answer that question except privately to my own 644 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: daughters when they ask me advice that they want to 645 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: make for their own decisions, because nobody ever asks a 646 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: guy whether they're having to sequence their career or if 647 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: they have to make a decision based on having it all. 648 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: It is a false premise. It's a sexist premise, and 649 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: I wish women would stop answering the question. In a minute, 650 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,760 Speaker 1: Jane's job gets bigger, and so does her family stay 651 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: with us by advertisements. So, Joshi, you know what little 652 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: Bits are? Right? Yeah? Are we using those? When we 653 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: were on vacation this summer. You were driving my daughter crazy, 654 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: right because you wanted to play with them and wouldn't 655 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: let her have them. Yeah, I got really addicted to them. 656 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: I was not being a good uncle. Well, Little Bits 657 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,959 Speaker 1: has the best new toy this holiday season, the Little 658 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: Bits Droid Inventor Kit, Troid Inventor Kit. Yeah, so this 659 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: thing is like big news in the Star Wars galaxy. Um. 660 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: The Inventor Kit allows kids to create custom droids, including 661 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: an R two unit with these little electronic bits that 662 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: snapped together. So kids master steam skills with these things. 663 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: They sound like a ton of fun too. Sasha. Sasha 664 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: loves this thing. She will record her own voice into 665 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: the droids. So she recorded it going warning, Warning, and 666 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: then it like chases after You. It's pretty hilarious. Long 667 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: at shortest time, listeners, get the little Bits droid inventor 668 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: kit at little bits dot com, Walmart, Amazon, and Apple. 669 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: This holiday season, give the gift of invention. We're back 670 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: with Jane Swift. When we left off, she was Lieutenant 671 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: governor of Massachusetts. Now, if you knew anything about Jane 672 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: before this story, it might be this next thing. One 673 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: particular incident with an aircraft. Yeah, I would love finally 674 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: to talk about the helicopter. The helicopter incident came in 675 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: the year two thousand, just few days before Thanksgiving. Jane's 676 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: daughter Elizabeth, had pneumonia, but Jane was in Boston. She 677 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,800 Speaker 1: was supposed to lead some conference about regional airports. Governors 678 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: from all over the country were flying in for the meeting. 679 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: At about ten o'clock the night before that event, UM, 680 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: I got a call from my husband saying that UM, 681 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: they were thinking about taking Elizabeth to the e R 682 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 1: because her temperature had gone up pretty high. Um, wasn't 683 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: sure what they were gonna do. I hemmed in hot 684 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: if I should go home then she had never been 685 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: that ill before, but decided that, you know, I couldn't 686 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: tell Governor Salucci or the press and everybody else that 687 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: I had to cancel a big, high profile event because 688 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: my daughter was sick. But the thing is, this event 689 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: was taking place at an airport, an airport where the 690 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: State Police's helicopter is based, and sometimes the governor or 691 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: lieutenant governor can use that helicopter. Jane says. The protocol 692 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: is simple. There's a pretty standard UH way that it's evaluated. 693 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 1: There's UH State Police helicopter that goes on training runs 694 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: fairly frequently, and if they're scheduled to do a training 695 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: run and they're going in the direction that a governor 696 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: lieutenant governor is going and it doesn't interfere with something else, 697 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: then they put them on the helicopter. Unbeknownst to me, 698 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: the troopers started to ask the State Police if there 699 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: were any training runs scheduled on the helicopter. It was 700 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: two days before Thanksgiving UM and they arranged for me 701 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: to take the helicopter home at the end of that 702 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: event and frankly um and if things had gotten bad 703 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: with Elizabeth's health earlier. So the event ended and Jane 704 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: boarded the helicopter at Logan Airport and the state police 705 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: flew her home on a ride that was already scheduled 706 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 1: to go in that direction. She didn't give it a 707 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: second thought, but word got out and the press feasted. 708 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: People were furious, why should she get flown around using 709 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: taxpayer money while the rest of the state had to 710 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: sludge along on the highway on one of the busiest 711 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: travel days of the year. It hit lots of nerves, right, 712 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: hit nerves of people who are mad at state government 713 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: because of traffic on a holiday. It hit nerves of 714 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: um parents who are also struggling with you know, sick children. 715 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: Nerves of people who think that political officials are you know, 716 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: above the law and have more assets and privileges than 717 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: others um and so all of those things made it 718 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,479 Speaker 1: a awful political controversy. The Washington Post published a piece 719 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: called super Mom's Power Trip. A local radio show dedicated 720 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: an hour to the scandal. Callers gave Jane nicknames like Skypilot, Dumbo, 721 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: and Jane Air. Get It Air, and the scandal did 722 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: not stop with the helicopter. Chuck caught pneumonia from Elizabeth, 723 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: which meant he couldn't care for her, So Jane wound 724 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: up asking members of her staff to perform childcare duties. 725 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: A Democratic senator at the time distributed buttons that said 726 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: it takes an entire state government to raise a child. 727 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: Jane later admitted, Yeah, using her staff as babysitters was 728 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: not okay. Eventually, an ethics committee investigated. Jane actually requested 729 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: it herself. The committee find Jane dollars for the childcare thing, 730 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: but she wasn't charged with any ethics violations for the helicopter. Still, 731 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: when she thinks about it, this part drives her crazy. 732 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: Had I done the exact same thing as a guy, 733 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: they would have never investigated, And frankly, if they applied 734 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: the same standard to many other future and previous governors, 735 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: they would have had the same findings. So Jane says, 736 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: in hindsight, she wishes she had just taken a sick day. 737 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: Despite the scandal and the penny nicknames, Jane got a promotion. 738 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: Paul Salucci, her governor, got tapped by President George W. 739 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: Bush to serve as the US ambassador to Canada, which 740 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: meant that just months after the helicopter incident, Jane became 741 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: the governor of Massachusetts while acting governor. She's the first 742 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: and only woman to hold the job. So how can 743 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: she do this across the Bay State? That is the 744 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: question that greets Jane Swift as she readies to assume 745 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: the responsibilities of governor tomorrow and soon gives birth to twins. 746 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: Swift has endured a barrage of sometimes almost venomous when 747 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: thought I couldn't possibly outdo myself, I became Governor of 748 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: Massachusetts subscenely pregnant and became the first governor in the 749 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: history of the country to give birth while in office. 750 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,800 Speaker 1: The acting Governor of Massachusetts is in the hospital tonight 751 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: for two of the best reasons in the world, twins. 752 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: Barely a month after taking office when her predecessor resigned. 753 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: Thirties six year old Jane Swift gave birth by sorcerean 754 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: section last night, and CBS is Jim actual Rod reports 755 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: her plans to stay on the job gave birth to 756 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: a political dispute. After her twins were born, Jane took 757 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,320 Speaker 1: an eight week maternity leave, actually working from home the 758 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: entire time, her critics said the governor shouldn't be phoning 759 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: it in. Then, once she was back full time in Boston, 760 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: she was criticized for another reason. Here's Jane on the 761 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: O'Reilly factor. You know, I think I can say this 762 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: pretty safely that you're the only governor in the United 763 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,240 Speaker 1: States that has twin babies right now. Twin babies. Governor 764 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: Angler obviously has the triplets who are born while he 765 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: was in office. But mind get a little more attention, 766 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: all right now? They on Beacon Hill with you, do 767 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: they get they get taken to the capital and all that. 768 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: No they don't. They stay back in Williamstown. Yeah, they're 769 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: on the farm where they are well away from the 770 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: craziness that is massive. Take on you though, little infants 771 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 1: just born, and you're in Boston, and if people don't 772 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: know the Commonwealth you live. Your house is on completely 773 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: the other side of the stage about or our drive through, 774 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,439 Speaker 1: our drive you. The good thing is that it gets 775 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: me out to talk to citizens across the whole Commonwealth. 776 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 1: I probably do many. Jane tries to change the subject, 777 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,840 Speaker 1: but O'Reilly's got one thing on his mind. But I 778 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 1: mission you, I see my babies a lot more than 779 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: folks would. UM. I we find it. It seems to 780 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: me like I catch twenty two, which is exactly the 781 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: dilemma that I think all working mothers are in. UM. 782 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: You just can't seem to win at this. UM, do 783 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: you have any suggestions of how to win at this? 784 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 1: One of the lessons I learned after my oldest daughter 785 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: was born is not to give oxygen to the whole 786 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: family debate, which is really hard. Every new mother wants 787 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: to talk about their kids and have them engaged. But 788 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: unlike male politicians, I stopped letting people take pictures of 789 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: my children. I stopped bringing them to events even that 790 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,839 Speaker 1: we're appropriate to bring children too. So if I went 791 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: to a county fair, I didn't bring my family. UM. 792 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,760 Speaker 1: Once the twins were born, so UM. But really walling 793 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: off and not talking about the twins and the little 794 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: girls really helped in just giving the public and the 795 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: press talk about the work was one of the ways 796 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: that I was more successful. UM. Oprah actually called and 797 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: asked if she could do an interview from my working 798 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: maternity leave. Alright, Q clip, Yeah, there is no clip. 799 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: Jane didn't do it. Who says no to Oprah? But 800 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: my press person's point was, if you say yes to Oprah, 801 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: you can't say no to the Boston Globe and the 802 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: Boston Herald and all the local media. So we really 803 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 1: didn't do any of those feel good family stories. While 804 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 1: Jane was in office, she accomplished a lot. She managed 805 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: a financial crisis. She overhauled the state's foster care system. 806 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: She helped lead Massachusetts through the aftermath of nine eleven, 807 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,720 Speaker 1: worked with forty five governors to urge Congress to create 808 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,399 Speaker 1: the Department of Homeland Security. Managing all of at while 809 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,320 Speaker 1: being the mother of three small children took some juggling. 810 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 1: I would often get up really early. UM many days 811 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: I tried to run, usually at about five o'clock in 812 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: the morning. I would get in my car with troopers 813 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: who drove me to and from Boston. I would usually 814 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 1: spend the first half hour reading the newspapers. UM, I'd 815 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,760 Speaker 1: make some phone calls, and I'd get ready to do events. 816 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,280 Speaker 1: I'd usually spend about half my day visiting events, meeting 817 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 1: with school kids, giving speeches. UM. I'd meet with my staff, 818 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,800 Speaker 1: talk about issues that were coming up, usually meet with 819 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,680 Speaker 1: some legislators, try to persuade them to do what I 820 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,280 Speaker 1: wanted them to do. About four o'clock in the afternoon, 821 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: I'd start doing more events outside of the state House, 822 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: probably do a fundraiser too late in the afternoon, and 823 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: on good days, around seven or eight o'clock, I'd be 824 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,320 Speaker 1: headed back to the Berkshire's, usually with a couple hundred 825 00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: page briefing book that I would get to read on 826 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: the two and a half hour drive back home. By 827 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: the time she got home, her daughters would usually be asleep. 828 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 1: Jane and her husband arranged for her to eat breakfast 829 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,840 Speaker 1: with the girls and take half days here and there Sundays, 830 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: though we're always set aside for family. Jane's girls are 831 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 1: teenagers now, and in some ways her husband has a 832 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,480 Speaker 1: closer relationship with them. He's been spending a lot of 833 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: nights these days hold up in the garage, managing his 834 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 1: feeling is over becoming an empty nester. Jane wasn't around 835 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: to chaperone field trips, big cookies, or attend holiday singalongs, 836 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 1: but she did planned school fundraisers from airplanes. She says 837 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,359 Speaker 1: that her years in politics have made her a good 838 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: role model for her daughters, and she enjoys sharing with 839 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,440 Speaker 1: them what she's learned about education and policy, about how 840 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,919 Speaker 1: other people's lives are different from theirs. I know there 841 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 1: are lots and lots of parents in this world and 842 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: moms in this world who have to work and leave 843 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,320 Speaker 1: their kids home every day for jobs they hate. And 844 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm really lucky that that's never been me. And I 845 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,799 Speaker 1: don't know how I would do that, you know, Jane, 846 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: we started this interview with you telling me that if 847 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: you had known how people would have reacted to uh, 848 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: knowing about your pregnancies, um and young children when you 849 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 1: when you had started running, if you had known about 850 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,800 Speaker 1: how the public could react to that, that you probably 851 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't have done it. Um. Do you regret having done it? 852 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: Not a day? And I encourage young women all the 853 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: time to run. So here's you know. I would have 854 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 1: been intimidated, um, and that would have been too bad. 855 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: And I would have you not done it because I 856 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,880 Speaker 1: would have thought it couldn't be done, you know, not 857 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,839 Speaker 1: a lot of times are are things that you could 858 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: say a decade ago that you continue to believe. But 859 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,560 Speaker 1: I believed then I was a better governor because I 860 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: was a mother. And I was a better mother because 861 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,800 Speaker 1: I was a governor. I still believe that today, and 862 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 1: I still believe today that for me and the personality 863 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: I have and the choices I've made, I'm better as 864 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: a mom as a working mom. Our family is better 865 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,839 Speaker 1: off with me as a working mom. I am announcing 866 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: this afternoon my decision to end my campaign for governor. 867 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: Jane doesn't work in politics anymore. Serving as governor of 868 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,280 Speaker 1: this great Commonwealth has been an honor and a privilege, 869 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: and one for which I'll always be grateful. You ultimately 870 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: decided not to run for re election as governor in 871 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: two thousand two. Why not because Mitt Romney could write 872 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,560 Speaker 1: a check for twenty five million dollars and beat me. 873 00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: These days, Jane works in the private sector for an 874 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,200 Speaker 1: education technology company. As a boss, Jane tries to apply 875 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,239 Speaker 1: some of the lessons that she learned in politics. She's 876 00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,439 Speaker 1: hired women and mothers because she knows firsthand the time 877 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,280 Speaker 1: management skills and perspective that they bring to the table. 878 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 1: She herself takes sick days in vacation, and she encourages 879 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,719 Speaker 1: other leaders to be transparent about when they take time 880 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 1: off for family. Jane's story, I think is a reminder 881 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,240 Speaker 1: that it's often hard to tell when people are being sexist, 882 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: like we're people criticizing Jane just because she was a mom, 883 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 1: or because it was their job as constituents to scrutinize politicians, 884 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,919 Speaker 1: or maybe just because Jane made some mistakes. Next week, 885 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 1: our series continues, and we're going to get into why 886 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: Americans discriminate so much against working moms. In the first place, 887 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,919 Speaker 1: we'll talk about how our work culture is not set 888 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:50,320 Speaker 1: up for working mothers or anyone really. Okay, now, we 889 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: were so excited about this series that we teamed up 890 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,120 Speaker 1: with the world's largest independent design firm, Pentagram to rebrand 891 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,239 Speaker 1: the Working Mom. They made a video just for us 892 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,239 Speaker 1: that you can share to help get the word out 893 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: about how badly we need to end discrimination against working moms. 894 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,800 Speaker 1: You can find that video at the homepage for this 895 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,399 Speaker 1: series It's a Real Mother dot Com. You can also 896 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,680 Speaker 1: use it's a Real Mother as a hashtag, like hashtag 897 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: it's a Real mother when bosses eliminate a pregnant woman's position. 898 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: And if you just plain old, need help or want 899 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: to help out, We've got a great list of resources 900 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,759 Speaker 1: all at it's a Real Mother dot Com. You can 901 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: also share your thoughts with us in the comments on 902 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:40,800 Speaker 1: this episode. That's episode. This podcast is produced by me 903 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 1: Hilary Frank with Abigail Kiel and Kristen Clark. We had 904 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: production help today from Jackie Sagiko. We are edited by 905 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 1: Peter Clowney. Our engineers are Pete Carram and Gard O'Connell. 906 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 1: Our technical director is the Reverend John Delore. Our music 907 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: is performed by Hot Moms dot gov and directed by 908 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,040 Speaker 1: Alison Layton Brown. We all I use music today by 909 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,719 Speaker 1: Kevin McLeod. We get editorial support from a Marie Baldonado, 910 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: Antonio cotun Day, and Rica Murphy. Special thanks this week 911 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,120 Speaker 1: to Annie Russell, Aaron Rubinstein at the University of Massachusetts, 912 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,840 Speaker 1: Amorous Department of Special Collections and University Archives, Champlain University, 913 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: and all the listeners who contributed stories to us. Next week, 914 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,239 Speaker 1: on the Longest Shortest Time, we ask why why would 915 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,839 Speaker 1: we set up these systems that would disadvantage so many 916 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: people who could do really great work, all because why 917 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,280 Speaker 1: we think that they really should be home with the kids. 918 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,600 Speaker 1: Do not miss this episode, the second in our series. 919 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Longest Shortest Time in Stitcher or Apple Podcasts, 920 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you like. Guys the life of a working 921 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 1: mother is a real mother. Let's change that. It's a 922 00:56:49,840 --> 00:57:21,640 Speaker 1: real mother dot com. Yeah. That's it for today's special 923 00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: Longest Shortest Time Takeover. I hope you liked hearing from 924 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: another show in our network. Stay tuned for our next 925 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,360 Speaker 1: episode of The Katie Curic Podcast featuring me, Katie Curic 926 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,680 Speaker 1: and my colleague Brian Goldsmith next week