WEBVTT - Dr. Ramani: Narcissism 101 - How to Identify Toxic Traits and Set Boundaries 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.320 They're not only living amongst us. They're running the show. 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.720 They're running the countries, they're running the states, they're running 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.800 the companies, they're running the media, they're running everything. This 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:10.320 is their world. We're just living in it. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:12.760 I kill them both, just like he said I did, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.960 But of course nobody believed it, because that's how good 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.760 we are at making things disappear. 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.319 There's parents out there who overvalue their kids, who over 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.040 indulge their kids, and are lenient with their kids. That's 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:29.920 the pastor grandiose starcissismy. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.000 I'm sorry that people are so jealous of me, and 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:34.440 I can help it that I'm popular. 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:35.960 Are they capable of love? 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.040 Is a Nazist capable of the concept of love and 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:40.280 caring for someone? 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:46.879 You? It's me. I love everything I have done, I 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.239 have done for you this even is. 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.880 There a possibility for this personality disordered to be taken 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:56.760 away from someone like? 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.800 Can you have it and then be cured from it? 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.960 Well, I'm rather Dablukiah and on my podcast A Really 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.400 Good Cry, we embrace the real, the messy, and the beautiful, 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.720 providing a space for raw, unfielded conversations that celebrate vulnerability 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.920 and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:15.000 find comfort together. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:17.920 Thank you so much for being here. I have to 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.319 say that, so I came. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.520 I've seen your work so much over Instagram and on 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.880 social media, but I listened to Jay's podcast with you 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.520 and him, and I became so obsessed with everything that 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:31.920 you share, not just what you share, but the way 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.759 that you share it. You just have such a calm 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:38.360 presence about you, and you feel so you almost feel 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.199 like someone that you know so well. Just by watching 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.640 you seem so comfortable and you're so relatable at the 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.000 same time. So thank you for that, and I feel 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.480 so honored to have you on the podcast. 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.200 I'm honored to be here again. Are you almost his family? 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:53.840 So yeah, of course as well. Thank you. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.000 I have so many questions for you. So much came 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.280 up when I started listening to what you do. I 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.960 have abundant questions, and I gather them from my own 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:03.480 mind and from so many other people that. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:04.040 I spoke to. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.160 So I kind of just want to start off with 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.240 asking straight up, what is the definit I know that 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.080 you focus your work on narcissism and helping people to 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.440 understand it, and you know so many different dynamics. I 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.760 know that you also help people who have been in 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.639 narcisstic relationships, and so I want to start off by 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.839 asking because I feel like many people use the term 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.959 very loosely and also sometimes don't know what they're even 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.040 saying when they say, what is a narcissist? Yeah? 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:35.440 So narcissism is a personality style. Okay, like any personality 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.840 style happens to be a more maladaptive, rigid personality style. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.560 But all that said, it's a personality style. And I'm 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:43.320 putting such a fine point on that because it's not 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.000 a disorder. They're break great out of that right now. 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:50.320 So narcissism's personality style again, maladaptive, not great, but it 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:56.679 is what it is. It is characterized by entitlement, grandiosity, variable, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.079 and usually low empathy. These are personalities that tend to 0:02:59.919 --> 0:03:07.440 be very controlling. There is a obviously tremendous egocentricity, and 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:13.440 they're validation seeking, validation and attention seeking. They need constant attention, validation, praise, 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.280 people focusing on them, and all of these things I'm 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.320 talking about. The grandiosity, the validation seeking, the entitlement are 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:27.680 really defenses that are pretty deep seated insecurity and a 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.840 poorly developed sense of self. They have trouble with regulating emotions. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.960 So when things aren't going their way, they're disappointed, they're stressed, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.600 they're frustrated, they will lash out very quickly. And in 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.680 that way, people who spend time with narcissistic people will say, 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.320 there are times when this person is literally the most charming, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.200 charismatic person in the room. And then I got to 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.920 know them more and I got closer into their world, 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.120 and then I would see if things weren't just the 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.880 way they wanted them, there would really be hell to pay. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.000 So that's really what narcissism is, and a narcissistic person 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.000 as a person who has those kind of personality style. 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:04.960 So when I was listening to the podcast with you 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.080 and Jay and I had those qualities being being spoken about, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.560 there was an Honestly, I came away from the podcast just. 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.120 Thinking like, I feel like, with the way that we. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.640 All live our lives on social media, how generally everyone 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.520 has certain aspects of those qualities. And I came away 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.440 from it where I was like genuinely asking you, I 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.320 was like, I think I might have narcissistic qualities, not 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.159 because I felt like I had all of them, but 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.720 I did feel like to a certain degree, Like if 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.560 we think about sense of self importance or entitlement, I 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.560 feel like in this day and age, it's quite difficult 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.159 to when you actually reflect on yourself you do have 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.400 those qualities or we can have a level of them, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.240 or even if I think about, you know, the way 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.839 that we expect the one for people to give you 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.000 attention and fame, Like I remember I got a DM 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.839 once that was like, you're such a narcist, you just 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:55.920 like people seeing you all the time. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.159 And I was like, am I like's you know? 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.920 There are so many different levels to these qualities, and 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.359 so I wonder like, and like you said about the 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.840 insecurity part of it, a lot of these do come 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.039 up based on our insecurities that we get from childhood. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.880 Let's say, how do you differentiate between someone having one 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.400 of these qualities or a few of them? And is 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.279 there not some sort of spectrum that lies on. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.320 So narcissism miss on a continuum, right, okay, And there's 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.680 a couple of different ways to view this continuum. One 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.240 end is quite of my old narcissism. I call them 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.200 instagram narcissists. These are people who tend to be superficial, 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:34.080 status oriented, attention oriented, and they're not able to bring 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.599 their full deep selves into a human relationship. So they're 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.760 always like, take a picture of me at dinner, and 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.720 yet there's someone else at the table is clearly struggling, 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:44.840 but they'll still be all be all about but you 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:46.080 have to take a picture of me at dinner. I 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.440 need it for my Instagram kind of thing. And so 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.680 there's an emotional stunted immaturity to them. What they don't 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.000 tend to have so much of the malignant qualities, the 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.880 manipulativeness and the exploitativeness and all of that. As you 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.400 get into the middle of that spectrum and more moderate 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.040 narcissistic people, that's what most of us are dealing with now. 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.400 It's a bit more of a problem though. There's really 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.520 no way to have a successful, long term, healthy relationship. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.440 But someone like that, because of the variable empathy, because 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.960 of the grandiosity, entitlement, the dysregulation, all that stuff, it 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.440 gets in the way of it. There's a very little 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.719 capacity for intimacy, there's a little interest in closeness. A 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.040 long term, sustained relationship often doesn't have the novelty they want, right, 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.680 people kind of get uninteresting to them. Now at the 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.120 extreme end, now we're talking about people who are exploitative, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.839 who are coercive, who are very manipultive to isolate, a 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.599 person who will really do a psychological number, and so 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.800 along that spectrum, obviously there's a lot of variability. Somebody 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.080 who's in a relationship, let's say, with a very mild 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:52.200 narcissistic person, will say they're immature and they're ridiculous. And 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:53.839 I don't know that you'd have a very easy time 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.560 raising kids with someone like that, because they will lack 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.440 that depth and the discipline and the commitment to something 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.000 like that. But I do think that again, the thing 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:04.840 to keep in mind, you said, what if I'm one 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.400 of these things? Right, I don't think any one of 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.200 those things is ever going to be the ringer. Like, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.640 the idea of any personality is its consistency, it's pervasiveness, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.120 it's stability across multiple situations. Right, this is how this 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.320 person is. And the challenge with narcissism is when they're 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.320 well supplied, when they feel safe, they look great, they 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:33.560 look interesting e gauging again, charming, charismatic. But then when 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.560 the things don't go exactly the way they want, it 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.400 always turns out and if they don't value someone, So 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.520 in other words, you will see the narcissistic person flip 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.560 very quickly from treating a high status individual really nicely 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.440 and they're very careful with them and they're very warm, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.600 but then when they're with a lower status person, they 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.520 will degrade them and they will abuse them. And that 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.040 could literally happen in a fifteen second transition. So, I mean, 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.360 if anyone's ever wanted succession, I was just I was 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.880 watching an old episode last night and Tom, if you 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.240 watch those early episodes, it happened more Tom, the wife 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.720 of Shiv. Tom was talking to a very high executive 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.840 at the company and he got really berated and you know, 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.720 and he was like sort of taking it. But as 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:22.200 soon as he could, he found God the cousins name, Yeah, 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:27.080 he found Greg and he just completely was cruel to him. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.680 So he regulated by abusing someone because he had to 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.600 tolerate that bad behavior because that person at higher status. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.240 How would we recognize the difference between insecurity showing up 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.679 and someone having these narcissistic traits or are they does 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:43.679 it blend well? 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.040 So I'm very insecure. Start with me. Just keep it 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.120 in the room, right, I'm deeply insecure person, and I 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.760 would not lash out at another human being. The vast 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.120 number of insecured people won't do that. In fact, if anything, 0:08:55.360 --> 0:09:00.400 most insecure people are very internal themsel Now narcissistic people 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.319 do both. To sort of give a more round view 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.480 on narcissistic people, one thing that if you I've worked 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.080 clinically with many of them, is that they also sometimes 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.560 don't talk nicely to themselves either. They can actually be 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:16.199 quite cruel in their self talk, but that the scales 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.120 get balanced with them lashing out at others too, Whereas 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.720 a person who had narrowly might internalize that talk wouldn't 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.000 do that to other people. Why because they'd be worried 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.400 about hurting them. The narcissistic person doesn't trouble themselves with 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:29.600 the pain they cause others. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:31.160 Wh That's so interesting. 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.560 And when it comes to the empathy aspect, I know 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.040 that's a big part of it, where they just lack empathy. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.600 How would you define what empathy actually is? Because when 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:42.840 I think about empathy for myself, like when I was 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.760 breaking it down after hearing you speak before in my mind, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.760 I was thinking, there are so many layers to why 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.040 I feel empathy for people. So when I'm feeling empathy 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.840 for someone, it might be you know, I feel sorry 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.320 for them because of the circumstance that they're in, But 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.800 do I truly care about them? That for me is 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.440 a different quality, because I think it's easy to say, Okay, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.480 there's people in just a grand example, like there's there's 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.040 someone in Africa that's starving and doesn't have any money 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.800 or any food or anything any of the basic needs 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.080 that they need. I feel sad for them, But do 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.040 I truly care about them? Like, do I truly feel 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.960 that that inclination to go and help them? And in 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.480 the same way, even if it's let's say our friends 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.400 or our family, how do you differentiate between having real 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.000 empathy or whether it's because of duty or because of 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.160 what you're receiving in the back from them, or because 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:37.000 of what you're getting from giving to them. So I know, 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.520 from a person example, I used to and I've tried to, 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.640 you know, change that as time has gone on, But 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.760 do a lot for other people because it validated myself, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.280 Like that was my way of I know I have 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.440 importance in your life because of all the things that 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:53.760 I'm providing for you, and so I have to keep 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.840 providing and I have to keep being that person in 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.880 your life. Otherwise where is my value? So with empathy, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.720 that's why I know that question came up in my mind. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.640 What is true empathy? And how do you see in yourself? 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.000 And how do you see in other people? 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.240 So there's different ways to think about empathy. Okay, so 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.880 there's emotional It does start with cognitive empathy. So to me, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:18.320 the least interesting or the least useful form of cognitive empathy. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.839 Cognitive empathy is when you sort of understand why someone 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.080 is feeling the way they do. It's it's very much 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.640 it's an intellectual activity. It's when you're in a movie. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.080 Those aren't real people, so but you feel a sense 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.199 of like, oh that that character is suffering. I understand 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.040 why that character is angry. I understand why that character 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.560 is sad. I understand why you are upset. Right, But 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.679 it really doesn't connect emotional. It's like it's a niling 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.000 in some ways. Some people it might even consider that 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.319 emotional intelligence. 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:46.640 Right. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:52.720 Then there is emotional empathy. That's the more deeply felt empathy. 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.720 Whereas a person with cognitive empathy may say I understand 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.480 why they're angry, but you may not see much of 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.840 a change in their emotional state. When it's emotional empathy, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.040 our emotional state changes, right, because if you're sadness feeling 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.800 empathy for your sadness, which is a natural act, you 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.040 would see a change in my affects too, right, I 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.800 would become more subdued, and it can affect me. In fact, 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.120 there's sort of a doubt. There's a little bit of 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.280 a dark side to empathy of a person feels too 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.400 much of the other. They then then start taking on 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.000 all that that negative mood stay too, which would be 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.439 very There has to be some ability to say, I 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.319 feel with them, but it is not my pain, right, 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.400 so I feel them, and so it might You might 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.120 then speak to them in a certain way. You be 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.880 present with them, You'll mirror their emotions, you may cry 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.840 with them. That's emotional empathy, which is to me very 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:43.840 important in close relationships. Yet then there's compassionate empathy. And 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:48.080 compassionate empathy is where that feeling for the other turns 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.160 into behavior. So it might be that you move in 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.840 with a sick friend it might be that you stay 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.800 on the phone even an hour longer than you you 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.839 could afford to. It's an action, so it turns into 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.040 an action, you know. And then what you were and 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.280 so you were talking about this idea, there's somebody on 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.600 the other side of the world who is struggling or 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.640 maybe hungry. Now you're talking about sympathy, right, which is 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.880 different than empathy. Right, it's now connecting to pain in 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.000 a different way. When you feel empathy for someone, do 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.480 you care for them? I mean, I think that you 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.199 know at some level becomes sort of a semantic mincing. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.920 You may not know them enough to do so in 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.640 a sense of there's someone else in the room with 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.800 us now, I don't know him, so it would be 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.000 a little bit generous for me to say I care 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.520 for him. Yes, I don't know him enough. I have 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.040 empathy for him. Something sad happened to him, I would 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.520 feel that and probably say can we stop because he's upset. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.520 I don't know him, so how can I really care 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:42.040 for him? 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:42.400 Right? 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.280 I think that would be an overreach. If you will 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.120 right now as I got to know him, if we've 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.040 developed a friendship, that would be the evolution of caring 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.920 for him, but I could have empathy without caring for him. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:54.800 Oh my god, thank you for that differentiation, And that 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.360 makes that really does clarify. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.360 So like all the different levels, You're right. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.360 When I hear out someone that has something painful happened 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.280 to them, I don't know them, but I feel like 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.319 the pain because you kind of put yourself into that situation. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:10.840 But then when it happens, like when my grandma got 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.760 on well, and I like when I hear other people's 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.920 grandmas have become unwell, in my mind, I feel sad 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.760 for them, but I don't necessarily have that deep like 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.360 emotional change within me. 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.800 Yeah, it's not a big change, and you're carried around 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:24.800 with you right, Like, Yeah, there are some people who 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.520 actually err on the side of taking it in too 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.560 much that actually can have health effects. And there's almost 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.360 too much of itness. And a big part of being 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.160 trained as a therapist is year over year over year 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.880 to be emphatically present. But we can't rescue them, we 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.520 can't change them. So I could see seven clients in 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.200 a day, but then I can go I'll do my notes, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.160 I finished my files, I said done, and I'll watch it. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.080 To watch a TV show and laugh at it, you know. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.440 Without That's why the training of a therapist is so important. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.680 It's not that it trains the care out of us. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.000 It's not that it trains the empathy out of us, 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.280 but it teaches us how to be fully present with 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.880 those feelings but then not allowing it to overtake us. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.880 And just starting out, therapists will say that's harder. I've 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:08.600 been doing it for a long time. Then it's just 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.760 sort of it's a you know, and if you can't 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.280 get there, sometimes there's a tremendous burnout and you have 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:13.920 to leave the business. 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.880 I feel so many people probably don't even know the 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.200 difference between those stages and to even those different types 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.640 of empathy that there are. And so for me now, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.280 even when I'm observing myself, I feel like that will 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.280 give me a really good idea of the difference between 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.880 my emotional response to someone and how And I always 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.560 think about that when I'm speaking to a friend and 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.240 I'm having a conversation with them and they're having a 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.760 hard time. There are sometimes where I feel like crying 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.120 my eyes out because. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.640 Of how sad I feel for them. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.440 But then there are other times where they're telling me, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:43.600 and I'm like, I need to show a bit more 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.160 emotion right now, because. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.440 You know, absolutely absolutely yes, that's. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.920 More because it's in my cognitive empathy versus in my 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:51.840 emotional empathy. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.160 And there's you know, again, we could even take these 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.440 forms of empathy out to a different direction. I consider 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.200 there to be something called performative empathy. So if we 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.200 know that empathy. Listen, people know empathy is largely valued. 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:05.920 I mean unless you're sort of in some sort of 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.080 horrific business setting where everyone is just sort of destroying 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.920 each other or something that this idea that somebody could 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.320 be performative with their empathy. This is where we get 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.200 back into the narcissism neighborhood. Narcissistic people know to be 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.720 warm and to feel and all that. They can be 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.120 very performative with that, but it's not deeply felt. There's 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.360 also transactional empathy. I'm going to be empathic to this 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.840 person long enough to get what I need from them, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.320 and so they can really turn it on and be 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.000 that person get the thing they need. And then the 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.680 next time you have an accounter with this person, perhaps 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.440 thinking they're oh so empathic, you got nothing because they 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.080 already got what they needed. So I mean empathy I 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.800 do believe can be weaponized and often is weaponized by 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.400 people who are more antagonistic, which narcissism is a form 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:49.800 of that. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.840 Antagonism is narcisism something that you're able to identify just 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.120 by watching someone, or when you do a consultation with 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.320 someone and you're trying to find out what would be 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.680 the type of quoestquestion since you asked them, like, how 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.440 would you come to the conclusion that this person has 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.920 a narcisstic you said, personality? 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.760 Yes, it takes a minute, right, okay, I would you 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.399 know there's I think somebody would be lying if they 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.080 said in five minutes I could figure out someone starcissistic, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.240 unless they were so glaringly narcissistic that even like an 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.439 untrained anybody would say there's something. They may not know 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.720 the word narcissistic, but say this isn't okay. But when 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.720 a client comes in, obviously we spend at least the 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.679 first or second session and a lot of assessment will 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.960 brought you in and relationship histories. There are some tells though. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.320 One thing would be sort of how they interact with 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.760 the therapist in terms of even making arrangements their respect 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.840 for the time. So it would be if they stroll 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:48.680 in fifteen minutes late and say we could go a 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.640 little bit later, right, because and I'm thinking no, after 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.200 I'd very much explained to you that this is your 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.520 time and it doesn't go we don't start early, we 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.760 don't lay there's someone after you. So if I was 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.840 why that sort of entitlement creep into the scene, If 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.840 they would be demanding out of session time, texting, calling, emailing, whatever, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.600 that would certainly make my ears perk up. If they 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:15.600 were very dismissive and you know, towards me, making inappropriate 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.600 comments about appearance or anything like that, that would make 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.040 my ears perk up. Would that make me say they're narcissistic. No, 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.080 I'd still want more data as they shared with me 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.919 their history and how they manage conflict, how they manage disappointment, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:31.800 that's all going to come out in therapy. I mean, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.119 I would say the definitively, definitively, in the absence of 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.280 giving them structured tests and stuff like that, I would 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.199 say you'd have to probably meet a client two, three, 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.439 four times before you'd be able to entertain that hypothesis 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.640 in a heavy way. If you get tests and the measurements. Sure, 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.560 maybe one or two sessions. And it's for this reason, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.080 Radie that when people will say, how could I have 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.280 been so dumb? How could I have missed this? I 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.159 tell to a layperson's in a relationship, So that's going 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.199 to take you out a year on average. Just some 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.199 people figured it out earlier. Sure, but I think that 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.440 for many people, they'll say, it took me a year 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.200 to see that all this toxic stuff was a pattern. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.600 There was so much other good stuff. Now I see 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.679 it is a pattern. I see it might even be 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.960 bothersome for me. So when people say it it took 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.520 me two years, I said, that's about right. You know, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.240 I'm in a room looking for stuff and trained to 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.119 look for stuff, and it takes me a minute. So 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.080 of course, in a relationship, especially if you're having good 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:31.919 stuff happen with a very charming, charismatic, narcissistic client, you 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.439 might And I'm the only person probably out there who's like, 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.239