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Speaker 1: They're not only living amongst us. They're running the show.

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Speaker 1: They're running the countries, they're running the states, they're running

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Speaker 1: the companies, they're running the media, they're running everything. This

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Speaker 1: is their world. We're just living in it.

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Speaker 2: I kill them both, just like he said I did,

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Speaker 2: But of course nobody believed it, because that's how good

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Speaker 2: we are at making things disappear.

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Speaker 1: There's parents out there who overvalue their kids, who over

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Speaker 1: indulge their kids, and are lenient with their kids. That's

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Speaker 1: the pastor grandiose starcissismy.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry that people are so jealous of me, and

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Speaker 3: I can help it that I'm popular.

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Speaker 2: Are they capable of love?

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Speaker 4: Is a Nazist capable of the concept of love and

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Speaker 4: caring for someone?

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Speaker 2: You? It's me. I love everything I have done, I

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Speaker 2: have done for you this even is.

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Speaker 4: There a possibility for this personality disordered to be taken

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Speaker 4: away from someone like?

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Speaker 2: Can you have it and then be cured from it?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm rather Dablukiah and on my podcast A Really

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Speaker 4: Good Cry, we embrace the real, the messy, and the beautiful,

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Speaker 4: providing a space for raw, unfielded conversations that celebrate vulnerability

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Speaker 4: and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and

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Speaker 4: find comfort together.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. I have to

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Speaker 2: say that, so I came.

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Speaker 4: I've seen your work so much over Instagram and on

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Speaker 4: social media, but I listened to Jay's podcast with you

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Speaker 4: and him, and I became so obsessed with everything that

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Speaker 4: you share, not just what you share, but the way

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Speaker 4: that you share it. You just have such a calm

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Speaker 4: presence about you, and you feel so you almost feel

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Speaker 4: like someone that you know so well. Just by watching

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Speaker 4: you seem so comfortable and you're so relatable at the

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Speaker 4: same time. So thank you for that, and I feel

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Speaker 4: so honored to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be here again. Are you almost his family?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, of course as well. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I have so many questions for you. So much came

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Speaker 4: up when I started listening to what you do. I

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Speaker 4: have abundant questions, and I gather them from my own

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Speaker 4: mind and from so many other people that.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to.

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Speaker 4: So I kind of just want to start off with

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Speaker 4: asking straight up, what is the definit I know that

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Speaker 4: you focus your work on narcissism and helping people to

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Speaker 4: understand it, and you know so many different dynamics. I

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Speaker 4: know that you also help people who have been in

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Speaker 4: narcisstic relationships, and so I want to start off by

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Speaker 4: asking because I feel like many people use the term

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Speaker 4: very loosely and also sometimes don't know what they're even

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Speaker 4: saying when they say, what is a narcissist? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So narcissism is a personality style. Okay, like any personality

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Speaker 1: style happens to be a more maladaptive, rigid personality style.

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Speaker 1: But all that said, it's a personality style. And I'm

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Speaker 1: putting such a fine point on that because it's not

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Speaker 1: a disorder. They're break great out of that right now.

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Speaker 1: So narcissism's personality style again, maladaptive, not great, but it

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Speaker 1: is what it is. It is characterized by entitlement, grandiosity, variable,

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Speaker 1: and usually low empathy. These are personalities that tend to

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Speaker 1: be very controlling. There is a obviously tremendous egocentricity, and

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Speaker 1: they're validation seeking, validation and attention seeking. They need constant attention, validation, praise,

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Speaker 1: people focusing on them, and all of these things I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. The grandiosity, the validation seeking, the entitlement are

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Speaker 1: really defenses that are pretty deep seated insecurity and a

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Speaker 1: poorly developed sense of self. They have trouble with regulating emotions.

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Speaker 1: So when things aren't going their way, they're disappointed, they're stressed,

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Speaker 1: they're frustrated, they will lash out very quickly. And in

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Speaker 1: that way, people who spend time with narcissistic people will say,

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Speaker 1: there are times when this person is literally the most charming,

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Speaker 1: charismatic person in the room. And then I got to

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Speaker 1: know them more and I got closer into their world,

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Speaker 1: and then I would see if things weren't just the

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Speaker 1: way they wanted them, there would really be hell to pay.

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Speaker 1: So that's really what narcissism is, and a narcissistic person

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Speaker 1: as a person who has those kind of personality style.

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Speaker 4: So when I was listening to the podcast with you

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Speaker 4: and Jay and I had those qualities being being spoken about,

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Speaker 4: there was an Honestly, I came away from the podcast just.

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Speaker 2: Thinking like, I feel like, with the way that we.

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Speaker 4: All live our lives on social media, how generally everyone

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Speaker 4: has certain aspects of those qualities. And I came away

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Speaker 4: from it where I was like genuinely asking you, I

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Speaker 4: was like, I think I might have narcissistic qualities, not

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Speaker 4: because I felt like I had all of them, but

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Speaker 4: I did feel like to a certain degree, Like if

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Speaker 4: we think about sense of self importance or entitlement, I

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Speaker 4: feel like in this day and age, it's quite difficult

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Speaker 4: to when you actually reflect on yourself you do have

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Speaker 4: those qualities or we can have a level of them,

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Speaker 4: or even if I think about, you know, the way

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Speaker 4: that we expect the one for people to give you

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Speaker 4: attention and fame, Like I remember I got a DM

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Speaker 4: once that was like, you're such a narcist, you just

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Speaker 4: like people seeing you all the time.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, am I like's you know?

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Speaker 4: There are so many different levels to these qualities, and

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Speaker 4: so I wonder like, and like you said about the

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Speaker 4: insecurity part of it, a lot of these do come

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Speaker 4: up based on our insecurities that we get from childhood.

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Speaker 4: Let's say, how do you differentiate between someone having one

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Speaker 4: of these qualities or a few of them? And is

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Speaker 4: there not some sort of spectrum that lies on.

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Speaker 1: So narcissism miss on a continuum, right, okay, And there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of different ways to view this continuum. One

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Speaker 1: end is quite of my old narcissism. I call them

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Speaker 1: instagram narcissists. These are people who tend to be superficial,

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Speaker 1: status oriented, attention oriented, and they're not able to bring

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Speaker 1: their full deep selves into a human relationship. So they're

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Speaker 1: always like, take a picture of me at dinner, and

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Speaker 1: yet there's someone else at the table is clearly struggling,

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Speaker 1: but they'll still be all be all about but you

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Speaker 1: have to take a picture of me at dinner. I

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Speaker 1: need it for my Instagram kind of thing. And so

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Speaker 1: there's an emotional stunted immaturity to them. What they don't

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Speaker 1: tend to have so much of the malignant qualities, the

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Speaker 1: manipulativeness and the exploitativeness and all of that. As you

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Speaker 1: get into the middle of that spectrum and more moderate

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Speaker 1: narcissistic people, that's what most of us are dealing with now.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit more of a problem though. There's really

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Speaker 1: no way to have a successful, long term, healthy relationship.

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Speaker 1: But someone like that, because of the variable empathy, because

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Speaker 1: of the grandiosity, entitlement, the dysregulation, all that stuff, it

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Speaker 1: gets in the way of it. There's a very little

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Speaker 1: capacity for intimacy, there's a little interest in closeness. A

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Speaker 1: long term, sustained relationship often doesn't have the novelty they want, right,

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Speaker 1: people kind of get uninteresting to them. Now at the

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Speaker 1: extreme end, now we're talking about people who are exploitative,

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Speaker 1: who are coercive, who are very manipultive to isolate, a

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Speaker 1: person who will really do a psychological number, and so

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Speaker 1: along that spectrum, obviously there's a lot of variability. Somebody

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Speaker 1: who's in a relationship, let's say, with a very mild

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Speaker 1: narcissistic person, will say they're immature and they're ridiculous. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know that you'd have a very easy time

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Speaker 1: raising kids with someone like that, because they will lack

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Speaker 1: that depth and the discipline and the commitment to something

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Speaker 1: like that. But I do think that again, the thing

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind, you said, what if I'm one

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Speaker 1: of these things? Right, I don't think any one of

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Speaker 1: those things is ever going to be the ringer. Like,

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Speaker 1: the idea of any personality is its consistency, it's pervasiveness,

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Speaker 1: it's stability across multiple situations. Right, this is how this

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Speaker 1: person is. And the challenge with narcissism is when they're

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Speaker 1: well supplied, when they feel safe, they look great, they

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Speaker 1: look interesting e gauging again, charming, charismatic. But then when

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Speaker 1: the things don't go exactly the way they want, it

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Speaker 1: always turns out and if they don't value someone, So

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Speaker 1: in other words, you will see the narcissistic person flip

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Speaker 1: very quickly from treating a high status individual really nicely

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Speaker 1: and they're very careful with them and they're very warm,

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Speaker 1: but then when they're with a lower status person, they

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Speaker 1: will degrade them and they will abuse them. And that

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Speaker 1: could literally happen in a fifteen second transition. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if anyone's ever wanted succession, I was just I was

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Speaker 1: watching an old episode last night and Tom, if you

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Speaker 1: watch those early episodes, it happened more Tom, the wife

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Speaker 1: of Shiv. Tom was talking to a very high executive

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Speaker 1: at the company and he got really berated and you know,

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Speaker 1: and he was like sort of taking it. But as

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Speaker 1: soon as he could, he found God the cousins name, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he found Greg and he just completely was cruel to him.

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Speaker 1: So he regulated by abusing someone because he had to

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Speaker 1: tolerate that bad behavior because that person at higher status.

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Speaker 4: How would we recognize the difference between insecurity showing up

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Speaker 4: and someone having these narcissistic traits or are they does

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Speaker 4: it blend well?

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Speaker 1: So I'm very insecure. Start with me. Just keep it

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Speaker 1: in the room, right, I'm deeply insecure person, and I

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Speaker 1: would not lash out at another human being. The vast

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Speaker 1: number of insecured people won't do that. In fact, if anything,

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Speaker 1: most insecure people are very internal themsel Now narcissistic people

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Speaker 1: do both. To sort of give a more round view

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Speaker 1: on narcissistic people, one thing that if you I've worked

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Speaker 1: clinically with many of them, is that they also sometimes

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Speaker 1: don't talk nicely to themselves either. They can actually be

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Speaker 1: quite cruel in their self talk, but that the scales

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Speaker 1: get balanced with them lashing out at others too, Whereas

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Speaker 1: a person who had narrowly might internalize that talk wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do that to other people. Why because they'd be worried

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Speaker 1: about hurting them. The narcissistic person doesn't trouble themselves with

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Speaker 1: the pain they cause others.

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Speaker 2: Wh That's so interesting.

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Speaker 4: And when it comes to the empathy aspect, I know

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Speaker 4: that's a big part of it, where they just lack empathy.

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Speaker 4: How would you define what empathy actually is? Because when

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Speaker 4: I think about empathy for myself, like when I was

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Speaker 4: breaking it down after hearing you speak before in my mind,

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Speaker 4: I was thinking, there are so many layers to why

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Speaker 4: I feel empathy for people. So when I'm feeling empathy

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Speaker 4: for someone, it might be you know, I feel sorry

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Speaker 4: for them because of the circumstance that they're in, But

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Speaker 4: do I truly care about them? That for me is

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Speaker 4: a different quality, because I think it's easy to say, Okay,

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Speaker 4: there's people in just a grand example, like there's there's

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Speaker 4: someone in Africa that's starving and doesn't have any money

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Speaker 4: or any food or anything any of the basic needs

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Speaker 4: that they need. I feel sad for them, But do

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Speaker 4: I truly care about them? Like, do I truly feel

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Speaker 4: that that inclination to go and help them? And in

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Speaker 4: the same way, even if it's let's say our friends

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Speaker 4: or our family, how do you differentiate between having real

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Speaker 4: empathy or whether it's because of duty or because of

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Speaker 4: what you're receiving in the back from them, or because

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Speaker 4: of what you're getting from giving to them. So I know,

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Speaker 4: from a person example, I used to and I've tried to,

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Speaker 4: you know, change that as time has gone on, But

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Speaker 4: do a lot for other people because it validated myself,

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Speaker 4: Like that was my way of I know I have

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Speaker 4: importance in your life because of all the things that

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Speaker 4: I'm providing for you, and so I have to keep

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Speaker 4: providing and I have to keep being that person in

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Speaker 4: your life. Otherwise where is my value? So with empathy,

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Speaker 4: that's why I know that question came up in my mind.

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Speaker 4: What is true empathy? And how do you see in yourself?

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Speaker 4: And how do you see in other people?

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Speaker 1: So there's different ways to think about empathy. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: there's emotional It does start with cognitive empathy. So to me,

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Speaker 1: the least interesting or the least useful form of cognitive empathy.

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Speaker 1: Cognitive empathy is when you sort of understand why someone

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Speaker 1: is feeling the way they do. It's it's very much

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Speaker 1: it's an intellectual activity. It's when you're in a movie.

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Speaker 1: Those aren't real people, so but you feel a sense

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Speaker 1: of like, oh that that character is suffering. I understand

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Speaker 1: why that character is angry. I understand why that character

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Speaker 1: is sad. I understand why you are upset. Right, But

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Speaker 1: it really doesn't connect emotional. It's like it's a niling

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Speaker 1: in some ways. Some people it might even consider that

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Speaker 1: emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Then there is emotional empathy. That's the more deeply felt empathy.

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Speaker 1: Whereas a person with cognitive empathy may say I understand

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Speaker 1: why they're angry, but you may not see much of

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Speaker 1: a change in their emotional state. When it's emotional empathy,

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Speaker 1: our emotional state changes, right, because if you're sadness feeling

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Speaker 1: empathy for your sadness, which is a natural act, you

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Speaker 1: would see a change in my affects too, right, I

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Speaker 1: would become more subdued, and it can affect me. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there's sort of a doubt. There's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a dark side to empathy of a person feels too

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Speaker 1: much of the other. They then then start taking on

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Speaker 1: all that that negative mood stay too, which would be

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Speaker 1: very There has to be some ability to say, I

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Speaker 1: feel with them, but it is not my pain, right,

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Speaker 1: so I feel them, and so it might You might

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Speaker 1: then speak to them in a certain way. You be

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Speaker 1: present with them, You'll mirror their emotions, you may cry

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Speaker 1: with them. That's emotional empathy, which is to me very

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Speaker 1: important in close relationships. Yet then there's compassionate empathy. And

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Speaker 1: compassionate empathy is where that feeling for the other turns

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Speaker 1: into behavior. So it might be that you move in

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Speaker 1: with a sick friend it might be that you stay

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Speaker 1: on the phone even an hour longer than you you

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Speaker 1: could afford to. It's an action, so it turns into

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Speaker 1: an action, you know. And then what you were and

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Speaker 1: so you were talking about this idea, there's somebody on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the world who is struggling or

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Speaker 1: maybe hungry. Now you're talking about sympathy, right, which is

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Speaker 1: different than empathy. Right, it's now connecting to pain in

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Speaker 1: a different way. When you feel empathy for someone, do

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Speaker 1: you care for them? I mean, I think that you

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Speaker 1: know at some level becomes sort of a semantic mincing.

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Speaker 1: You may not know them enough to do so in

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Speaker 1: a sense of there's someone else in the room with

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Speaker 1: us now, I don't know him, so it would be

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Speaker 1: a little bit generous for me to say I care

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Speaker 1: for him. Yes, I don't know him enough. I have

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Speaker 1: empathy for him. Something sad happened to him, I would

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Speaker 1: feel that and probably say can we stop because he's upset.

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Speaker 1: I don't know him, so how can I really care

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Speaker 1: for him?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: I think that would be an overreach. If you will

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Speaker 1: right now as I got to know him, if we've

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Speaker 1: developed a friendship, that would be the evolution of caring

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Speaker 1: for him, but I could have empathy without caring for him.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, thank you for that differentiation, And that

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Speaker 4: makes that really does clarify.

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Speaker 2: So like all the different levels, You're right.

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Speaker 4: When I hear out someone that has something painful happened

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Speaker 4: to them, I don't know them, but I feel like

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Speaker 4: the pain because you kind of put yourself into that situation.

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Speaker 4: But then when it happens, like when my grandma got

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Speaker 4: on well, and I like when I hear other people's

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Speaker 4: grandmas have become unwell, in my mind, I feel sad

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Speaker 4: for them, but I don't necessarily have that deep like

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Speaker 4: emotional change within me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a big change, and you're carried around

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Speaker 1: with you right, Like, Yeah, there are some people who

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Speaker 1: actually err on the side of taking it in too

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Speaker 1: much that actually can have health effects. And there's almost

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Speaker 1: too much of itness. And a big part of being

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Speaker 1: trained as a therapist is year over year over year

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Speaker 1: to be emphatically present. But we can't rescue them, we

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Speaker 1: can't change them. So I could see seven clients in

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Speaker 1: a day, but then I can go I'll do my notes,

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Speaker 1: I finished my files, I said done, and I'll watch it.

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Speaker 1: To watch a TV show and laugh at it, you know.

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Speaker 1: Without That's why the training of a therapist is so important.

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Speaker 1: It's not that it trains the care out of us.

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Speaker 1: It's not that it trains the empathy out of us,

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Speaker 1: but it teaches us how to be fully present with

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Speaker 1: those feelings but then not allowing it to overtake us.

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Speaker 1: And just starting out, therapists will say that's harder. I've

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Speaker 1: been doing it for a long time. Then it's just

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Speaker 1: sort of it's a you know, and if you can't

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Speaker 1: get there, sometimes there's a tremendous burnout and you have

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Speaker 1: to leave the business.

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Speaker 4: I feel so many people probably don't even know the

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Speaker 4: difference between those stages and to even those different types

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Speaker 4: of empathy that there are. And so for me now,

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Speaker 4: even when I'm observing myself, I feel like that will

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Speaker 4: give me a really good idea of the difference between

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Speaker 4: my emotional response to someone and how And I always

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Speaker 4: think about that when I'm speaking to a friend and

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Speaker 4: I'm having a conversation with them and they're having a

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Speaker 4: hard time. There are sometimes where I feel like crying

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Speaker 4: my eyes out because.

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Speaker 2: Of how sad I feel for them.

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Speaker 4: But then there are other times where they're telling me,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, I need to show a bit more

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Speaker 4: emotion right now, because.

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Speaker 1: You know, absolutely absolutely yes, that's.

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Speaker 4: More because it's in my cognitive empathy versus in my

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Speaker 4: emotional empathy.

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Speaker 1: And there's you know, again, we could even take these

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Speaker 1: forms of empathy out to a different direction. I consider

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Speaker 1: there to be something called performative empathy. So if we

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Speaker 1: know that empathy. Listen, people know empathy is largely valued.

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Speaker 1: I mean unless you're sort of in some sort of

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Speaker 1: horrific business setting where everyone is just sort of destroying

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Speaker 1: each other or something that this idea that somebody could

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Speaker 1: be performative with their empathy. This is where we get

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Speaker 1: back into the narcissism neighborhood. Narcissistic people know to be

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Speaker 1: warm and to feel and all that. They can be

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Speaker 1: very performative with that, but it's not deeply felt. There's

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Speaker 1: also transactional empathy. I'm going to be empathic to this

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Speaker 1: person long enough to get what I need from them,

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Speaker 1: and so they can really turn it on and be

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Speaker 1: that person get the thing they need. And then the

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Speaker 1: next time you have an accounter with this person, perhaps

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Speaker 1: thinking they're oh so empathic, you got nothing because they

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Speaker 1: already got what they needed. So I mean empathy I

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Speaker 1: do believe can be weaponized and often is weaponized by

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Speaker 1: people who are more antagonistic, which narcissism is a form

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 4: Antagonism is narcisism something that you're able to identify just

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Speaker 4: by watching someone, or when you do a consultation with

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Speaker 4: someone and you're trying to find out what would be

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Speaker 4: the type of quoestquestion since you asked them, like, how

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Speaker 4: would you come to the conclusion that this person has

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Speaker 4: a narcisstic you said, personality?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it takes a minute, right, okay, I would you

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Speaker 1: know there's I think somebody would be lying if they

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Speaker 1: said in five minutes I could figure out someone starcissistic,

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Speaker 1: unless they were so glaringly narcissistic that even like an

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Speaker 1: untrained anybody would say there's something. They may not know

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Speaker 1: the word narcissistic, but say this isn't okay. But when

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Speaker 1: a client comes in, obviously we spend at least the

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Speaker 1: first or second session and a lot of assessment will

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Speaker 1: brought you in and relationship histories. There are some tells though.

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Speaker 1: One thing would be sort of how they interact with

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Speaker 1: the therapist in terms of even making arrangements their respect

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Speaker 1: for the time. So it would be if they stroll

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Speaker 1: in fifteen minutes late and say we could go a

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Speaker 1: little bit later, right, because and I'm thinking no, after

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Speaker 1: I'd very much explained to you that this is your

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Speaker 1: time and it doesn't go we don't start early, we

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Speaker 1: don't lay there's someone after you. So if I was

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Speaker 1: why that sort of entitlement creep into the scene, If

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Speaker 1: they would be demanding out of session time, texting, calling, emailing, whatever,

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Speaker 1: that would certainly make my ears perk up. If they

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Speaker 1: were very dismissive and you know, towards me, making inappropriate

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Speaker 1: comments about appearance or anything like that, that would make

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Speaker 1: my ears perk up. Would that make me say they're narcissistic. No,

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Speaker 1: I'd still want more data as they shared with me

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Speaker 1: their history and how they manage conflict, how they manage disappointment,

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Speaker 1: that's all going to come out in therapy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would say the definitively, definitively, in the absence of

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Speaker 1: giving them structured tests and stuff like that, I would

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Speaker 1: say you'd have to probably meet a client two, three,

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Speaker 1: four times before you'd be able to entertain that hypothesis

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Speaker 1: in a heavy way. If you get tests and the measurements. Sure,

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Speaker 1: maybe one or two sessions. And it's for this reason,

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Speaker 1: Radie that when people will say, how could I have

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Speaker 1: been so dumb? How could I have missed this? I

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Speaker 1: tell to a layperson's in a relationship, So that's going

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Speaker 1: to take you out a year on average. Just some

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Speaker 1: people figured it out earlier. Sure, but I think that

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Speaker 1: for many people, they'll say, it took me a year

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Speaker 1: to see that all this toxic stuff was a pattern.

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Speaker 1: There was so much other good stuff. Now I see

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Speaker 1: it is a pattern. I see it might even be

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Speaker 1: bothersome for me. So when people say it it took

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Speaker 1: me two years, I said, that's about right. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm in a room looking for stuff and trained to

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Speaker 1: look for stuff, and it takes me a minute. So

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Speaker 1: of course, in a relationship, especially if you're having good

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Speaker 1: stuff happen with a very charming, charismatic, narcissistic client, you

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Speaker 1: might And I'm the only person probably out there who's like,

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Speaker 1: you're charismatic. Now, all of a sudden, my years are

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Speaker 1: really worked out.

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Speaker 4: And so then do you think people are born with

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Speaker 4: this quality? And it's something which you can't get rid

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Speaker 4: of or is it something that is triggered in someone

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Speaker 4: based on, you know, a lot of trauma or something

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Speaker 4: that's happened in their life.

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Speaker 1: So the way you get to narcissism is it's a

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Speaker 1: very multidetermined path, right. So the way your personality is

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Speaker 1: formed is we're kind of born with the seed of

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Speaker 1: our personality, call our temperament that has a genetic element

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Speaker 1: to it. It's sort of you would even see it

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Speaker 1: in a family. Someone will say, oh my gosh, the

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Speaker 1: way she laughs is just like this, auntie or something

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Speaker 1: like that. That's temperament, right, the way someone might handle

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Speaker 1: certain pressure stresses. All that, that temperament goes out in

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Speaker 1: the world, and it's shaped by environmental interactions. Okay, those

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Speaker 1: environmental or interactions with the people closest to them, with

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Speaker 1: people in their community and even in the society at large,

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Speaker 1: will then continue to shape that personality out. Parenting matters.

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Speaker 1: The way a child is parented is probably the most

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Speaker 1: significant predictor of narcissism in adulthood. And we're looking at

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Speaker 1: two pathways again, So not only are there multiple pathways,

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Speaker 1: the neglect, chaos, inconsistency, even trauma pathway that gets us

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Speaker 1: to a place that's either called malignant or vulnerable narcissism.

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Speaker 1: That's more victimized and it's more resentful and angry and

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Speaker 1: socially anxious. The malignant narcissism is that more severe, manipulative

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Speaker 1: explos that's where that route gets you. But there's parents

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Speaker 1: out there who overvalue their kids, who overindulge their kids,

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Speaker 1: and are lenient with their kids. That combination, you're the

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Speaker 1: most special kid, You're more special than the other kids.

432
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: That's the path to grandiose starcissism. And so what you

433
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 1: have is these different pathways getting to kind of a

434
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: similar place. These are kids who are entitled who don't

435
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 1: learn to regulate their emotions. The vulnerable and malignant group

436
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: perceive a lot more threat in the world. The grandiose

437
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: people have all these grandiose defenses around an inner core

438
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: that never really sort of learn to be a person,

439
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 1: and so they really do walk in the room thinking

440
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: they're more special. You can see that's not going to

441
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: work in relationships. So and then they're having environmental interactions.

442
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: Let's say that overvalued, overindulged, leniently parented, over special kid

443
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: keeps being told by other people how special they are.

444
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: You've now made a monster. But that child may go

445
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: to school and maybe they're lucky they have a compassionate

446
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: teacher that says, you know, there's other kids, we're all

447
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: going to wait in line. Then, but the line leader

448
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: position changes every day and that might balance some of

449
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 1: it up. But the parents are going to have a

450
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: potent influence and so, and you throw that in with temperament.

451
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: If you have a kid with a difficult temperament, yes,

452
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: that's the game changer, right, because that difficult temperament with

453
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 1: all that either that overindulgence or that chaos or that trauma,

454
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: and then negative environmental interactions, that's where you're taking that.

455
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: You're shaking it all up, probably in more narcissistic direction.

456
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 1: But if you have a child with the temperament that's

457
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: sort of the seed of an agreeable personality, even those

458
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: environmental conditions may not then get them to a narcissistic plate,

459
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: the place they might be a little bit demand y

460
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: and they might be a little bit entitled, but it's

461
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: not going to be a full blown narcissism.

462
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 4: And then do they when you do see like when

463
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 4: you've obviously seen so many people in your clinics. Do

464
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 4: you find that at all of it has come from

465
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 4: traumatic things or you find it's more to do with

466
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 4: this who you've seen both?

467
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's it's.

468
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 4: So interesting that it can come from even being too loved,

469
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 4: almost not even you loved.

470
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: You're over special, You're more special. You're the most special child.

471
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: No child is more special than you. It's all kids

472
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: are special. You're special. That kid's special, but it's that

473
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: you're better.

474
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 4: You're almost training them to feel that entitlement before they

475
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 4: even experience it themselves.

476
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: That's exactly. And their parents are modeling it too. They're

477
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: watching parents behave in an entitled way, perhaps speaking rudely

478
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: to a teacher or a coach, or a server in

479
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 1: a restaurant or anyone. They'll see that happen over and

480
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: over again, and it creates sort of this closed universe. Now,

481
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: sometimes kids like that will be shaped by peers will

482
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: say who are you to say this? And that might

483
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: shape it in a different direction, you see. That's what

484
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm saying. These environmental forces are almost like the water

485
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: going down a canyon. It's going to shape the side

486
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: of it differently depending on how the water flows.

487
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 4: And then do you have people that generally come to

488
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 4: you and say, do narcissists come to you and say,

489
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: I think I'm a narcisist I need help? Or is

490
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 4: it difficult for them to even recognize that something is

491
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 4: wrong with them?

492
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: The vast majority don't identify. I've had clients. I've had

493
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: clients who've done that, and it actually was really lovely

494
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: work with them. To do you work with the clients.

495
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: When I say lovely, no, I mean definitely somebody I

496
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: wanted to be my friend. But it meant that we

497
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: could almost push the accelerator a little bit. I wasn't

498
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: walking on eggshells. I could really push back on them

499
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, you're right, and we could go

500
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: toe to toe. Most narcissistic clients come into therapy because

501
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: either life isn't going the way they want, a relationship

502
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: has been disrupted, they have another mental health condition that's

503
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: really causing them issues depression, anxiety, substance use, that kind

504
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: of thing, or they've publicly done something that's like they've

505
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: been in a scandal. So it's almost what I call

506
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 1: pr therapy. Yeah, that kind of thing.

507
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then is a narcissist able to heal themselves

508
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: or are you able to treat a narcist to take

509
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 4: away or reduce those qualities in them.

510
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: They'd have to be motivated, and that's half the problem.

511
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: If you don't think there's something wrong with you, where's

512
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: the motivation?

513
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: Right?

514
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: In many cases, these are people who almost at a

515
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: delusional level, a delusional grandiosity, believe that. In fact, research

516
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: shows that narcissistic people actually view themselves as being very empathic.

517
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: They have an incredible distortion like it's a they like,

518
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: I'm a nice person. I'm a really empathic person. So

519
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: they're coming from this distorted space, and if the person

520
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: they're not being empathic too were to point it out

521
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: to them, they would likely shift the blame onto them,

522
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: gaslight them, all that other stuff, so that that very skewed.

523
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: They lack what's called self reflective capacity. Narcissistic people kind

524
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: of don't understand how they affect other people. They don't

525
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: understand the consequences of their actions, and they're very disms missive.

526
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: It's almost as though I feel everything and they don't

527
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: take it's a lack of empathy. I don't account for

528
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: it happening in anybody else, So there's often not that motivation.

529
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: Some of these other things can motivate them. Someone saying

530
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: we're done, this marriage is done, and the person wants

531
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: to remain married. They may rally a little bit. But

532
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: to your point, I don't think a narcissist could do

533
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: this themselves personally, I don't. I think it's too deep.

534
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: If there's traumatic origins to the narcissism, I'm always a

535
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: little bit more optimistic about treatment because you can use

536
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: trauma informed therapies. There's models of therapy you can use

537
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: that can actually address what's going on for that client.

538
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: Those grandiose, overindulged ones, they just don't have the humility

539
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: typically to do the work. They might see that they're

540
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: kind of blowing up their lives, but they still tend

541
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: to blame the world for all of that and not

542
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: take accountability. And even after therapy, let's say, and it

543
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: takes a long time to do this kind of therapeutic work.

544
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: Every day, every encounter, every email, every text message, is

545
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: it's mindfulness? Am I listening to them? Am I being nice?

546
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: Am I? Am I regulated? They're not going to do that.

547
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: And the first time there's a stress in their life.

548
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: It's back to this regulation and how common would you

549
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: say it is?

550
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 4: Like, is there research that's been done that one in

551
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 4: x amount of people have narcissistic qualities or have this personality?

552
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 4: Because you hear about it so much now I feel

553
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 4: like it's something talked about so much.

554
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: What's the actual stats do you go of?

555
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: So when we talk about again, the Holy Show is

556
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: trying not to bring up that issue of that narcissistic

557
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: personality disorder. Obviously, when people do research, they have to

558
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: use all kinds of scales and measurements, and usually they're

559
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: diagnostic measurements. The tricky bit with narcissistic personality disorder is

560
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't get diagnosed with it even

561
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: if they have it, because either a they don't go

562
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: to therapy, and even if they go to therapy, it's

563
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: a sort of stigmatized diagnosis. Insurance companies won't reimburse on

564
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: the diagnosis. People don't want to put it in a

565
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: record somewhere that could sort of harm the client. The

566
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: client gets agitated. A lot of therapists find the workarounds,

567
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: They find all the neighborhood diagnoses and toss that in

568
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: so that they have something to document. So I mean,

569
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, it just doesn't get documented

570
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: and researcher to get documented because it's not usually a

571
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: clinical setting.

572
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 4: And in the.

573
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: Research, I mean, I've seen rates depending on the study,

574
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: anywhere from one to six percent, not a lot. Now,

575
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: the difficult part is what if you study narcissism and

576
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: the population as a whole, So sort of like the

577
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if Cault urban myth or the alligator

578
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: and the sewer kind of number as I put it.

579
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: Some folks have estimated that that number of enough narcissism

580
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: to cause harm to other people in relationships level probably

581
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: twenty percent, one in five. So using that as a calculation,

582
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: if you know five people, statistically speaking, one of them's

583
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: probably got some enough narcissistic personality stuff that you would

584
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: notice it.

585
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 4: And I feel with Narsens and whenever spoken about it's

586
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: generally about the victim that has been exposed to someone

587
00:28:59,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: like that.

588
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: That's you know, it's cause harm in their life.

589
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: But how does someone help a narcissistic personality, like how

590
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 4: do they integrate into society? How do they live within society?

591
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: How do they create relationships? Like there has to be

592
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 4: some sort of way for them to live amongst everyone.

593
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 4: Otherwise they just completely get isolated and arcissistic people.

594
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not only living amongst us. They're running the show.

595
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: They're running the countries, they're running the states, they're running

596
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: the companies, they're running the media, they're running everything. This

597
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: is their world. We're just living in it, right. I

598
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: actually think they're doing just fine. Oh oh I could

599
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: use a little narcissism probably help me. I've done research

600
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: shows that they're better at dating, they're more likely to

601
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: get people to marry them. They're doing fine. Oh now

602
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: they may be like, oh, well it's me they're just

603
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: ruining everyone else's lives. Wow, there's a lot of that.

604
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: I mean it's very imbalanced. No, no, no, the narcissistic personality.

605
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: Is actually fine inside.

606
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Like, no, they're not fine inside. They're a mess inside, dark,

607
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: de insecure, dark, k eyed to the soul, miserable. But

608
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: the compensatory mechanisms. I'm going to work harder, I'm going

609
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: to be better. I'm going to be the very best

610
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: to the world. It looks like they're doing great, So

611
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: what does that do person It's like, well, they're so

612
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: successful I want to be in a relationship with them.

613
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: I want to work with them. They're so smart. I

614
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: have known people to say they want to work with

615
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: someone else, like, please don't do this. This is really

616
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: a terrible person. No, no, no, they're so successful. I

617
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: said you, this will destroy it. A year later they'll

618
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: say if I listened to you, and I don't know

619
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: what to tell people. I'm thinking you will not be

620
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: the magic person who changes them. So they're doing fine

621
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: in the sense of how they function in society. What internally, No,

622
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: not doing well, no self reflective capacity, none of the

623
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: humility that one needs to say, you know, maybe I

624
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: don't need to be this person I'm hurting people.

625
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: Not that.

626
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: So I would say the world is actually very designed

627
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: for narcissism because we live in a very hierarchically structured world.

628
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, is there a possibility for this personality disordered to

629
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 4: be taken away from someone like can you have it

630
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: and then be cured from it?

631
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: Or it's something which just remains with Okay, I'm.

632
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: Going to give you an example. Yeah, But the best

633
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: way I could explain it I only know about myself.

634
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: I can't come I could speculate what your personality is like,

635
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: I am agreeable, introverted, and conscientious. Yeah, that's my personality

636
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: high in all three makes sense. I work all the time, discipline,

637
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: great student, very warm, very nice, humble, modest blah blah

638
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: blah doesn't sound I'm humble and mind I'm humble and modest.

639
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: I would never leave my house if I could. I

640
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: don't like parties. I don't like events. I don't like

641
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: getting together with people, none of that. I'm very I

642
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: prefer to stay home, watch TV, read a book, all

643
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: those things. Okay. If somebody said, can you change your

644
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: personality Romini? Can you be antagonistic and disagreeable? Can you

645
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: be the life of the party? And can you just

646
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: be undisciplined? The answer to that is a resounding now.

647
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

648
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: So my personality can't change. Why do we would?

649
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: And that's why you call it personality type. It's specific,

650
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: that's it.

651
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

652
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 4: I mean I feel the same way whenever I've been

653
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 4: asked to, not asked, but whenever I get put into

654
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: situations where it demands a different version of me or

655
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: like a me to go out of character or out

656
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 4: of my comfort zone in that way, Like you said,

657
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 4: I generally am someone who's more introverted. When I go

658
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 4: into large crowds or large situations, for me, I would

659
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 4: like to find one person to talk to for the

660
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 4: whole night. But that pressure of trying to be outgoing

661
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 4: and be the life of the pasty or whatever you

662
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 4: think you should be. You're right, you can never keep

663
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: that up, like it feels so out of character.

664
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: Well, you can do it for a night, and then

665
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: you're exhausted. So if I have to have a social event,

666
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: I'll fall asleep. Yeah I can't. I'll go home and

667
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: follow asleep. Right. Yeah, extroverted daughter, if she has to

668
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: spend a day not having had contact with people, she'll

669
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: become sad and exhausted.

670
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 4: Yeah wow, okay, So yeah, that's why you have to

671
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: shift your mindset of it's not a disorder or a

672
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: well yeah, it's.

673
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: A personality style. And again, most cases it doesn't get diagnosed.

674
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of folks out there who

675
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: are narcissistic, a lot of them might have NPD, but

676
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: they're never going to see the clinician to get diagnosed.

677
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: That's not a determination that can really be made outside

678
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: of that setting. So when we focus on it as

679
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: a personality style. My personality can't change, yours can't, so

680
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: why would they?

681
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 4: And so is there different ways that it shows up,

682
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 4: whether it's in So if someone was to try and

683
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: identify a narcisistic personality in work, in a relationship, would

684
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 4: they be similar traits going across all the way? So

685
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 4: if you were in a relationship, or let's say, for

686
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: all my friends who are starting who are going on

687
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 4: dates at the moment, many of my friends are going

688
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 4: on like dating apps and they're meeting people in the

689
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: first few dates. How what kind of questions should people

690
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: be asking? What kind of triggers should they be looking

691
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: for in those settings? Is it something that within a

692
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 4: month or so you can really if you're trying to

693
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 4: be more aware, can you ask them the right of

694
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 4: questions or put them in situations too to find that out.

695
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: I think it's less about the questions and more about

696
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: the presence. So I would watch how they manage frustration

697
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: they don't get the table they want at the restaurant.

698
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: How do they talk to the bartender, How do they

699
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: talk to a server who may not do exactly what

700
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: they want? How do they talk about other people? Do

701
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,479
Speaker 1: they listen to you when you speak, do they get

702
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: what if they have a bad date work? How do

703
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: they respond to that? Are they able to be present

704
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: when you're sharing something or do you feel any sense

705
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: of contempt or dismissiveness or minimization. That's it's processed up.

706
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: They're really because there's very few questions you can ask

707
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: them because they can always change. There their shape shifters

708
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: and chameleons, and they're able to very much. They know

709
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: what looks right. So watching how they react, watching how

710
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: they respond, watching their presence, that's how you're going to

711
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: see it.

712
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 4: And when you say they're generally in, are they people

713
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 4: who are generally liked by people because of these qualities?

714
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: Like you said, they're charismatic, they end up being someone

715
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 4: that actually attracts people because of those qualities.

716
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: The grandiose narcissists ys. The grandiose narcissists are often very

717
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: well like, they're extroverted, but they and they can be difficult.

718
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: So what you'll often see is that the people who

719
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: are in the grandiose narcissist sphere that are valid or

720
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: valued by them, like I said, might have higher status,

721
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: similar status, they're useful to them. Whatever. Those people will

722
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: be treated well. And it's why sometimes in life people

723
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: will say I met this person so cool and other

724
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: people no, no, And we also have this very different assessment.

725
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: First thing I'd want to know is what your status

726
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: relative to this person relative to that person with other

727
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: a different opinion. And my guess is either you're a

728
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: new person in the narcisses if you like them, you're

729
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: a new person in their life. You have something they need,

730
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: You have higher status, so they're doing a different dance

731
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: for you than they are for someone who works for them.

732
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I've had this happen over and over again, where I've

733
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: had the opportunity and my other work to see a

734
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: narcissistic person how they're interacting with their staff. Now they

735
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: might let's say they're perceiving me as a useful person

736
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: at the time, how they're interacting with me, and the minute,

737
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: the minute I see the mistreat a staff person, it's over.

738
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not working with this person, not doing it.

739
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 4: And what does someone who is in a relationship with

740
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 4: a narcissist, what does that love look like like?

741
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: Are they capable of love?

742
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: Is a narcissist capable of the concept of love and

743
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 4: caring for someone.

744
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: That's a philosophical question, right, So what's love? R?

745
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 4: What is love?

746
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: What is love?

747
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: Yeah?

748
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, beyond the philosophy, I think

749
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: we could think about if we take love and we

750
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: stretch it to a place of let's just stay in

751
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: even in the intimate relational space first intimacy, and I

752
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: think that from intimacy even applies to friendships. Deep sustaining mutual, reciprocal, consistent, available,

753
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: present depth depth with someone, and the and the desire

754
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: for that depth with someone. To me, that's part of the.

755
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: Measure of love, respect, definite compassion, all of whether it's.

756
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, they're not capable of that. But many people

757
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: are in narcissistic relationships. But the narcissistic person says I

758
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: love you, yeah, and the person will say, no, you don't,

759
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 1: This isn't love. And I'll be like, whoa, whoa they said,

760
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: they narcissist said they love you. Your problem is and I'm

761
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: going to do a twist on bell hooks here. They

762
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: are that you guys are using different definitions. You can't

763
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: I love you. They think they love you. The problem

764
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: you don't have a shared definition, right, And so that's

765
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: something people don't do. I always wish there was an

766
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: informed consent for him. At the beginning of a relationship.

767
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 1: You both throw a piece of paper down and say,

768
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: what do you use your definition of love? Like, yeah, no,

769
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling that this does not Item two on

770
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: the contract is not working for me. But it was

771
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: real nice to meet you. We don't do that. And

772
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: I think that people get caught up in the words

773
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: I love you. They say it I love you to me,

774
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, and that's not interesting. I don't care

775
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: if they said I love you, What does that signified

776
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: to them?

777
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 4: Have you asked people that when they've come into your clinics.

778
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 4: Have you seen generally when you've seen narcisstic personality, do

779
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 4: they have similar definitions of what they see as love.

780
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: It's actually a cut question. It's hard for them to answer.

781
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: They'll often say like, you know, yeah, I love them

782
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: like I don't. I want to spend time, I spend

783
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: money on them, I buy them gifts. So it's a

784
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: very superficial. When you really cut to the court, like

785
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: I bought to a Chanel bag, they'll think.

786
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 4: They're seeing their value in that relationship versus seeing what

787
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 4: they're giving to it.

788
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: And it's and not seeing it from a place of

789
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: I love that we have shared interests.

790
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: This is what I give.

791
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 1: I feel safe with this person. They feel safe. They

792
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: then could not. It's very it feels transactional, it feels statusy,

793
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: lots of roles. Well, I mean we're married and they're

794
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: the mother of my kids, or whatever it may be.

795
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: It's it doesn't it doesn't track to these deeper things.

796
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: But like I said, they say I love you, they

797
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: may whatever that measurement is to them. They may very

798
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: well feel like, I like looking at your attractive to me,

799
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: or you're smart, or you have a great job, or

800
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: you have a lot of money. That's there, I love

801
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: you right and or that you're And then I recall

802
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: working with more than a few narcissistic folks who felt

803
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: like they would find partners who are very materialistic and

804
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: the entire relationship was a transaction. Right, I'm going to

805
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: buy you this gift, I'm going to take you on

806
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: this vacation. I'm going to take whatever it is. And

807
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: so back to them was love if the other person's

808
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 1: on board, maybe.

809
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 4: And then so would a narcissist and a narcissist together.

810
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 4: Would that be complete disaster or would that actually work

811
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 4: because they both would end up having similar surface level relationships,

812
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 4: Like would it make more sense for narcissists to be

813
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 4: together than to be with other people who can't quite

814
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 4: relate to them and understand them.

815
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: Do we need to create narcissists dating apps?

816
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: That's a good idea. There you go, that's your business.

817
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: You enjoyed, do that, I'll be your consultant. Effect they

818
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: are when narcissists isn't in a relationship with the narcis

819
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: happens all the time, by the way. It can be

820
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: very volatile. It can be very betrayal Leyden. You hope

821
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: to god they don't have kids because no one's going

822
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: to be minding the story kind of thing. Right, Okay,

823
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: so you're right that given the superficial focus, it can work.

824
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: Right.

825
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: It's basically two people looking into their own separate mirrors

826
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: and you know, pretty content. And those relationships are often

827
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: driven by things like status. You know that both people

828
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: are deriving a status from the other. They may have

829
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: similar superficial interests, so that that keeps it going, so

830
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: that they can keep it going for a while. But

831
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: someone's going to betray.

832
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: Someone, right, So it's almost like it's a personality type

833
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 4: that's incapable of creating meaningful exchanges, like meaningful, genuine relationships.

834
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 4: Where would they turn to people if they have something

835
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,959
Speaker 4: that's upset them and hurt them? Would they would they

836
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 4: know how to? Like, how does a narcist express their emotion?

837
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: Not in a good way, It's usually going to be overtrage, yelling, screaming, irritability,

838
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: or it's going to be passive aggression.

839
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 4: It almost feels like it's like an adult tantrum, like

840
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 4: whenever I talk, whenever I think about it, even in

841
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 4: my own personality, if I have I don't really have

842
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: outbursts like that, but even if I have emotions that

843
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 4: get released a bit too fast, I'm like, it feels

844
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 4: like I've seen this in lots of people where we

845
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 4: have these adult tantrums, where it's where it's again what

846
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 4: you said, manipulative, a little bit unreasonable, like there's no

847
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 4: reason to it. It becomes almost like a small think

848
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 4: and become so big and there is no changing their minds.

849
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 4: They believe that they are right, They believe that they

850
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 4: have every right to feel this way. The other thing

851
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 4: that comes to mind is with people who are If

852
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 4: there are people listening and watching and thinking, oh my goodness,

853
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 4: my partner might just be a narcissist, what happens stay

854
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: with them? How does someone then deal with that I've

855
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 4: been with this person for ten years. I'm sure, like

856
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: you said, you've seen so many people who have been

857
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 4: with partners for years and years.

858
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: What happens?

859
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 4: Does the other person ever feel joy and happiness within

860
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: the relationship or is it something that we're always struggling Listen.

861
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: It's so tricky because when you think about long term

862
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: intimate relationships, if it's a newer relationship, there's not a

863
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: lot of skin in the game. They're not living together,

864
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: they don't have children together, they're not married or anything

865
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: like that. Obviously, disengaging from something is, if I say,

866
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: easier in quotes, because psychologically it's not easy, right, the

867
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: deeper in someone is and you have other shared stuff, yeah, house,

868
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 1: home and children and all that stuff, money, it becomes harder.

869
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: But then there's other things afoot Because in a narcissistic relationship,

870
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: one would say it's so bad, why wouldn't everyone go? Well,

871
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: they don't. In fact, a lot of people. Don't go

872
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: take the practical out for a minute, right, There's a

873
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: couple of other variables at play. There's a lot of hope.

874
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope they'll change, right, change, and I

875
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: will be the one change? You know, you won't be.

876
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: No one is going to be, So you take that

877
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: out of the picture. But that's hard to let go of.

878
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: But then there's a phenomenon called trauma bonding. Yes, And

879
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: with trauma bonding, what we see is that it is

880
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: a situation where the good days and the bad days

881
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: going back and forth between. That creates this very difficult

882
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: to detach from bond and it's kept in place because

883
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: the person, the non narcissistic person as it were, will

884
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: make justifications and they'll make nationalizations and they'll make excuses,

885
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: and that almost starts to become a reality. And then

886
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: on top of that, that trauma bonded person will blame themselves.

887
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: They'll doubt them, doubt themselves. And since they're already being

888
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: gaslighted and doubted and blamed, it all fits. So now

889
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: this person feels it maybe this is my fault and

890
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: they're really busy and they told me that, and I

891
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: actually haven't been doing X, Y or Z as much, right,

892
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: and we had a good time last weekend, and we

893
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: do have a vacation planned and look at our pictures

894
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: on the laws and all of that, right, and then

895
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: it gets bad again, and then it's bad again, and

896
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: if it's bad for enough days, maybe by the third

897
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: or fourth or fifth week of bad, like, okay, this

898
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: isn't healthy. I got to go rationalize, rationalized, self blame,

899
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: self blame, they're cracking through. Then there's a good day.

900
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: And that trauma bonded stuff can often have very ancient origins,

901
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: where for the child who might have a negating or parent,

902
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: or they're insecurely attached to the parent, that child had

903
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: to make sense of that. They don't have a choice.

904
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: You can't say I don't like this mom, I'm gonna

905
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: go get another mom.

906
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: Right.

907
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: So what happens then is that that child does blame

908
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: themselves so they can feel because as they blame themselves

909
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: and there's a path forward to attachment. The other option

910
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: is that that is absolutely cataclysmic. So that trauma bonded

911
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: cycle keeps people always questioning, wondering, and they'll think, what

912
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: if I leave and they meet someone else? What if

913
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: I leave and they I was wrong. And as a therapist,

914
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: I have to say when I have clients who have

915
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: been in trauma bonded relationships, I've said to them, can

916
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: you explain to me a little bit so I understand

917
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: what do you love about them? And even more so,

918
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: what do you like about them? When the client and

919
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: when a client is trauma bonded, the way they answer

920
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: that question is do you know doc, I don't know,

921
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: Like I can't put it into words. It's like it's

922
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: like it's like.

923
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: This magical like I have a soul connection, like we're

924
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 3: souls and we're like old souls and we're just connected,

925
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 3: and like I don't know, I can't put it in words.

926
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 4: It's like yeah, where it's almost like I know that

927
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 4: I have this attachment to this person that I can't

928
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 4: go off, but I don't quite know.

929
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: What it is that I love about them or like

930
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: about it.

931
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: Because it is a trauma bonded situation, it's actually a

932
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: very problematic person. Now, when a person's in a healthy

933
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: relationship and you say tell me you love like about me,

934
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: they'll give you very clear into case like this is

935
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: a kind person. I feel safe with this person. I

936
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: enjoy my time I spend with them. I feel respected.

937
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: They really uplift me. Okay, got it. Like it's very

938
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: very clear, very healthy. Not only and or they'll say

939
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: they're just I love I love hearing about their work

940
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: whatever it is. You see, there's a reciprocal awareness. The

941
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: person feels safe, they feel connected in a trauma bonded relationship.

942
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: It cannot be articulated, but people will sometimes I feel

943
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 1: the sense of chemistry. Chemistry is the most dangerous word

944
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: in a relationship. When I hear chemistry, I'm like, no, no, no,

945
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: don't tell me if you're a chemistry because it's almost

946
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: a like it's.

947
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: Like an explosion.

948
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an explosion, but it's also like a chemical excuse, right,

949
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: Like we have chemistry. That's why I'm sticking it out.

950
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: It's so weird to find this, I said, thank goodness,

951
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: it's rare. This is not good for you. So all

952
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: of that makes it very difficult for people to leave.

953
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: But many people do leave. And you know what, some

954
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: the vast majority who people who leave once they get

955
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: over the initial hump of and they don't always leave.

956
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: They're often left. Keep in mind the narcissistic person might

957
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: find new supply and so in that initial period, if

958
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: a person is left, they'll experience grief. They'll often feel like,

959
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I still feel so tied to this person.

960
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: The trauma bond may not have it's the therapy and

961
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: worked like that becomes eroding that trauma bond.

962
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 2: Right.

963
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: If a person leaves a narcissistic person, though, depending how

964
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: severe the narcissism is, there can be what we call

965
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 1: post separation abuse, stalking and harassment. It can be tricky

966
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: business and some people will say, oh, this is hard.

967
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: Doesn't always happen, But in a narcissistic relationship cycle, it's

968
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: not unusual for there to be something called hoovering, sucking

969
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: people back in, and that then becomes the game of people.

970
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: It's the fantasy, right of the child who finally gets

971
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: noticed by the parent like, ah, they came back for me.

972
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: Isn't that the ultimate attachment fantasy? They came back from me?

973
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: And you're like, here we go round two?

974
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: And so is that the same cycle that people?

975
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: Because I always think when it comes to parents, I

976
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 4: think we will have this image of how how could

977
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: a parent not love their child? Right, like you have

978
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 4: this in people's minds and especially in mine. I come

979
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 4: from a like I'm blessed to have a mom and

980
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 4: a dad who I have felt the love of, so

981
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 4: in my mind, I always think, and I know there

982
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 4: are so many horror stories, but if it's a narcissistic

983
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 4: parent and a child, Let's say a child is listening

984
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 4: to this who has had a parent who they felt

985
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: neglected by?

986
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 2: Is that the normal?

987
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 4: Is that the key sign of a narcissistic parent, Like

988
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 4: do you generally as a child and not feeling neglected.

989
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: Not just neglected, you feel invalidated. There's a difference. You

990
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: feel you are only going to be loved if you're

991
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: serving a function for the parent, and that function might

992
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: be not being around, not being a source of not

993
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: being inconvenient that the child is always trying to win

994
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: the parent over, gain their approof gain their validation. It

995
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: is a it is an exhausting, painful.

996
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 4: Way, and I guess that love is again it's the definition,

997
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: right like for the for the parent who is a

998
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 4: narcissist to their child, that is their definition of loving

999
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 4: their child will be different to what the child's definition

1000
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 4: of love from their parents.

1001
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: Child does not can have a definition of all. Child

1002
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: is all about survival. Child's about survival, I mean child.

1003
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 4: But even when you get to an adult, Let's say

1004
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 4: I got to this age and I realized that I

1005
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: had a traumatic relationship let's say with my mum or

1006
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 4: my dad, and I grow up to this age and

1007
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 4: I recognize when.

1008
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: I hear this, and I'm like, oh, this, this is

1009
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 2: actually what it was.

1010
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 4: But in in their mind should they believe that this

1011
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 4: their definition? The parent's definition of love was just very

1012
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 4: different to what they required as a as a child.

1013
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: No, that's a parenting fit, right is right? That's a

1014
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: that's not it's not about their parents had a different

1015
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: action of love. Parent didn't do the crucial job of parenting.

1016
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: Take love out of it. Really, they just did not

1017
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: do what a parent needed to do, which was to

1018
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: have regard for their child. Notice their child, be present

1019
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: with their child, validate their child, regulate their own emotions,

1020
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: and put primacy on their child. Never make a child

1021
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: a repository of their needs. Listen to their child's needs,

1022
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: encourage their child's emotional expression, create a safe space for

1023
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: that emotional expression. Most kids, because they.

1024
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: Don't have to put people first without it being for

1025
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 2: their benefit.

1026
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: Correct, the child becomes a source of narcissistic supply, either

1027
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: the parent derived status from them or they the child.

1028
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: They know the child will do things for them, but

1029
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: by in large, the narcissistic parent just doesn't like being

1030
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: inconvenienced by their child. Right.

1031
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 4: And so for anybody that ends up listening to this

1032
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 4: and they get to the end of this and they

1033
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 4: in their mind think, you know what I feel like

1034
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: I am. Let's say they're not a narcist. But there

1035
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 4: are all these qualities I would say are red signs

1036
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 4: of or like things that it's very easy for us

1037
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 4: to become depending on the company that we're surrounded by.

1038
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 4: You could, like you said, if you have parents that

1039
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 4: are constantly telling you you're more special, friends telling you

1040
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 4: you are more special, especially when it comes to beauty

1041
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 4: in this world, because you're constantly like if you are

1042
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 4: physically attractive, it is like you will have people telling

1043
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 4: you on the street, You'll have your parents telling you

1044
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 4: being an Indian child, if you are fair, if you

1045
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 4: are whatever, like that specialness that you are told from

1046
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 4: a young age.

1047
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 2: I'd say, even more.

1048
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 4: So than being smart, beauty is probably the area in

1049
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 4: our world which is focused on the most and so

1050
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 4: for anybody on a daily basis, who whichever one of these,

1051
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 4: whether it's self importance, entitlement, being sometimes manipulative with your

1052
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 4: empathy to try and gain things from people, because we

1053
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 4: live in a world where sometimes depending on the work

1054
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 4: you're in or whatever, you end up being nicer to

1055
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 4: people because you can gain from them on a daily basis.

1056
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 4: If someone's journaling, if someone is trying to better themselves,

1057
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 4: what would be the type, Like I guess it would

1058
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 4: just be a lot of self reflection. But would you

1059
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 4: recommend that people, even if they're not diagnosed as narcissists,

1060
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 4: to be reflecting on these parts of their lives and

1061
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 4: what kind of questions should they.

1062
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: Be asking themselves?

1063
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 4: And and how would they then, you know, change that

1064
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 4: dynamic in those areas.

1065
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: If a narcissistic person is doing that level of self reflection,

1066
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that they're all that much, do you

1067
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? That kind of depth work on

1068
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: their own spontaneously? Probably not.

1069
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 4: But I imagine even if you have small amounts of this,

1070
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 4: if you get fed it too much throughout your.

1071
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 1: Life, I understand what you're saying it's like the making

1072
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: of a monster prevention. Yes, if we think about how

1073
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 1: they should be raising children, educating children, is that it's

1074
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: not just empathy that's important. It's self awareness. It's self regulation, right,

1075
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: It's that.

1076
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: What do you mean my self regulation?

1077
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: Regulation is I'm having a I'm really angry right now.

1078
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 1: I need to figure out a healthy way to manage

1079
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: that emotion. And that might mean I think I need

1080
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: to take a walk. Can I have some time I'm

1081
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: going to cry this one out to do? Yeah, you

1082
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: know that kind of thing. I need a minute. That

1083
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: self regulation, lack of self regulation is just screaming and

1084
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: yelling and expecting to get your way right or sullenly

1085
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: sulking off and not communicating your feelings right. So you know, again,

1086
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: the core problem with narcissism is that lack of self

1087
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: reflective capacity. But you're saying if somebody may not be narcissistic,

1088
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: but they've been sort of indoctrinated into this sort of

1089
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: you're using this great example of like in the Indian community,

1090
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: of like certain qualities may be overvalued, attractiveness, fair skinnedness.

1091
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: You grow up with that, right, academic academic achievement. So

1092
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: you have a couple of things happening there. There's that

1093
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: temperament again coming up, right. It's also what other balances

1094
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: were there. The child could have heard you're so pretty,

1095
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: you're so pretty, so pretty, but also might have heard

1096
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: you're also many other wonderful things. You're so kind to

1097
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: your sister, you're such a kind, good person. The child

1098
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: still has to do chores. The child can't just ask

1099
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: and do whatever they want without there being some form

1100
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:21,439
Speaker 1: of consequence if they misbehave right, So that overvaluation on

1101
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 1: one thing, and I call it sort of that one

1102
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 1: trick pony treatment of a child. See this will also

1103
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: with quite a bit with academic skills, like they're doing

1104
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: so well, especially in their science classes, and they're going

1105
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: to go to a top university. Look look, look, look

1106
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: we have to. But if that child's getting with everything else,

1107
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: or even into adulthood, they can throw tantrums, they can

1108
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: be rude, they can be awful, But here, doctor, that's

1109
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: that's a problem. But if that person also has a

1110
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: balance against that, then that's obviously going to be very

1111
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 1: very protective. So it's the if a person is wondering,

1112
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: am I being empathic? Am I being self aware. We

1113
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: all should be doing Yes, all of us should be

1114
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: doing that. Like as I communicate with this person, let

1115
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: me think about this, or let me be aware that

1116
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: I didn't have a great day today, and they let

1117
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: the person know. Can we have this conversation tomorrow. I

1118
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: know I'm not at my best today. Or this is

1119
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: learned to articulate our needs somebody who is help, who

1120
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: might even be on the fringe that they've been told

1121
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: but a little bit too special or too wonderful, or

1122
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: that by doing these sorts of check ins with oneself,

1123
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: you can catch yourself. That's a lot of what mindfulness is.

1124
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: The words I'm about to say, how will these land?

1125
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: We may be telling someone something very uncomfortable that doesn't

1126
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: feel good, but there's a way to communicate that, no

1127
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: matter what it is to say, Okay, I need to

1128
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 1: give you feedback. I'd like us to take a minute,

1129
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: come in the room, you know, and you give them feedback.

1130
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: It may not be very nice feedback, but there's a

1131
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: way to do it, to check in with someone to

1132
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: create safety. Right. Yes, that's all mindful checking in, and

1133
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: a lot of us are too busy and on our

1134
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: own quests to do whatever it is we're doing or whatever,

1135
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: So it gets complicated in that chronic checking back in.

1136
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: I just don't think you're going to get a narcissistic

1137
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: person there. I just don't.

1138
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think with even with all these qualities

1139
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 4: we're talking about, even with entitlement, like I always think

1140
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 4: about whenever I go into a situation or you know,

1141
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 4: I think about where certain areas are triggered in me,

1142
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 4: Like when I go into a specific situation, where do

1143
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 4: I find my ego rising or my entitlement kicking in

1144
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 4: what kind of situations am I bringing those things out?

1145
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 4: Or what situations are bringing that out in me? And

1146
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 4: then when I track back to thinking about those situations

1147
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 4: and then tracking it back.

1148
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 2: To where it could have rooted from, I found that really.

1149
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 4: Helped me because there will be certain situation and I realized, yeah,

1150
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 4: maybe it was because give an example, I was told

1151
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 4: a lot because my eyes are a different color from

1152
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 4: in being a brown woman with like colored eyes, something

1153
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: I was commented on for like my whole life. And

1154
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 4: it was interesting because there's a level of even if

1155
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 4: I don't believe even when I look at other people,

1156
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 4: I see another colored eye, which I find more attractive

1157
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 4: or I love deep black or brown eyes because I've

1158
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 4: been told that for such a long time. It's almost

1159
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 4: like it gets programmed into you to believe that about

1160
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 4: yourself and then about other people. And so I found

1161
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 4: that all the areas that I find I think or

1162
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 4: people have told me I am better then because of

1163
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 4: or that I have a reason to be entitled because

1164
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 4: of That's how we translate it into our body.

1165
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: Ah, that's interesting.

1166
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 4: I've now realized that I have to find those places

1167
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 4: in my life, all the situations that are bringing that

1168
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 4: out in me and noticing them so then I can

1169
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 4: work on them.

1170
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: It's a great point. Again, but to be able to

1171
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 1: do that depth work requires a tremendous amount of mental health.

1172
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: You know. I would always give to my students when

1173
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: I was a professor that we had two parking lots,

1174
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: multiple parkingers, but one for the faculty and several for

1175
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: the students. The students' parking lots were further out. Faculty

1176
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: parking lot was closer in. I truly believe in horizontal

1177
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: organization and equity. It matters a lot to me. And

1178
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: then I have to say, how would I feel about that?

1179
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: Hav'm not bargain, right, yeah, right, And I think like

1180
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: I got a PhD, I spent ten years in school,

1181
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,439
Speaker 1: I have to work here. But really, and I really

1182
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: love your analysis of like to dig deep in what

1183
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: does that mean? Like do I feel like you know?

1184
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: Do I feel like something? And then I really would

1185
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: go deeper in that, like, Okay, what if these people

1186
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: paid me a ton more money to do this job?

1187
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: They said, but you have to park in this bargeou

1188
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: a mile away. I'm like, you could park me five

1189
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: miles away if you pay me that much. So it's

1190
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: all these these sliders right in the sense of academic

1191
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: jobs don't pay well, and so you're thinking, like you're

1192
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: already disrespecting me in so many ways, like please don't

1193
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: take my parking style way right, And so it forces

1194
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: you into what are the things like we all do

1195
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: have certain entitlements and privileges that we carry that if

1196
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: we feel those are being taken away, what.

1197
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 2: Does that what does it take away from What does it.

1198
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: Take away from me? What is that symbolic of how

1199
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: am I feeling that? What is it taking me back to?

1200
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: And that can be very very potent, that sort of

1201
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: depth work which we do for example, in a trauma

1202
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: client where you feeling this in your body. With a

1203
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: very healthy individual, where I'd say they'm in therapy this

1204
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: really you had a strong reaction to this, what's happening,

1205
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: And they'll say it blah blah blah, brought up this.

1206
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: When you bring that up with a narcissistic client, you

1207
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: kind of go kind of nowhere fast. Sometimes with a Again,

1208
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: I've had a handful of clients who are able to

1209
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: go deeper in and they see it and they get it,

1210
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: but it's a heavier lift and there's certainly not something

1211
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: they're going to do spontaneously.

1212
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 4: Let's say a narcis isn't capable of this. But I

1213
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 4: think for people who may notice certain of certain aspects

1214
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 4: of these qualities in their life, it's something where like

1215
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 4: you said, it can build up and they should be

1216
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 4: trying to We should all be trying to reduce these

1217
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 4: qualities within ourselves wherever we end up seeing them and

1218
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 4: doing that work on a daily basis. It's so important

1219
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 4: because you just never know where it's accumulating and how

1220
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 4: fast it's accumulating within you To then create this type

1221
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 4: of person or personality that you end up with and

1222
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 4: you can't reverse after you can't reverse.

1223
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the challenge is is that

1224
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, personality is pretty much gelled and in place

1225
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: by the mid twenties, right you are. Then environment will

1226
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: continue to shape that.

1227
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1228
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: So, a person has a tremendous amount of adversity, you

1229
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: can almost look at it. Think of it as like

1230
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: a marble rolling down something. It might go this direction,

1231
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: it might go di direction, depending on the texture of

1232
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 1: the thing that it's rolling down.

1233
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 5: Right.

1234
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: A person with one kind of let's say, an agreeable

1235
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: personality that's given those adversities, they may actually dip into

1236
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 1: a very deep well of resilience meaning purpose, existential stuff,

1237
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: and it might even toughen them up. They might strengthen

1238
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: their focus. Somebody who has more of this narcissistic style

1239
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: temperament call it what you will, and they face those adversities,

1240
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: it is there going to start to erode on, braid,

1241
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: fall apart, rage at the world and the most extreme places,

1242
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: perhaps even engage in violence. Wow.

1243
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 4: And it's so interesting because I feel like everything, whether

1244
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 4: it's a narcissist or not, everything seems system from insecurities,

1245
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 4: like the value that you end up having in other

1246
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 4: people's lives, the value that you find in the world

1247
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 4: of yourself, and I think or whether it's a narcissistic

1248
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 4: person or all the other personality types, we all thrive

1249
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 4: off this desire of wanting to be of value, and

1250
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 4: how we find that is through the way that we

1251
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 4: present ourselves in our personality. I feel like narcissists the word.

1252
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 4: The term has been obviously more common now, but would

1253
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 4: you say, was it called something else before? How is

1254
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 4: it suddenly become something that everybody knows about, talks about.

1255
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 4: And it feels like it's just a new thing that's developed,

1256
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 4: But it's obviously not.

1257
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: It's a new word in the grand history of that

1258
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: around probably since the late eighteen hundreds, early in nineteen hundred.

1259
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: So remember the field of psychology still in this relative infancy,

1260
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: and I you know, there's always been disagreement about psychoanalytic theorists,

1261
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: the Freuds and Auto Ranks and all of that. They

1262
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: were the ones who wrote about it first, always a

1263
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: lot of disagreement about it. And before that, I mean,

1264
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: if you really wanted to play the clock, all the

1265
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: way back there were people who talk about things like

1266
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: moral insanity. So these are people who are intellectually on point,

1267
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: but there was a moral depravity to them that was

1268
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: probably a hint towards narcissism. If we roll the clock

1269
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: all the way back to ancient physicians like Galen, they

1270
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: talk about the humors and some of the stuff that

1271
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: those early Greek Roman sort of physicians, as you will,

1272
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: they were talking about humors and they were talking about

1273
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: these different personality styles that would present narcissisms. Always agree

1274
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: has always existed in beings. We're a hominid species and

1275
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: our close close cousins are primates, and these are hierarchically

1276
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: organized species. So I think that when we think about

1277
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: things like how human beings have come through time, like

1278
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 1: in terms of how our social systems worked and were organized,

1279
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: how the industrial revolutions have affected how we exist with

1280
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 1: each other, life expectancies, patriarchies, the role of marriage, all

1281
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: of those things would have played a role in that

1282
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: there've always been terrible people. Open up a history book,

1283
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: exactly what do you think the history books are about

1284
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: the narcissist? The regular folks, which is out there plowing

1285
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: the fields and doing the thing and milking the cows.

1286
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: But the narcissists were the ones invading and pillaging and

1287
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: making history. That's who we still learn about. Their terrible people.

1288
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: And so those historical figures lacked empathy. And we're entitled,

1289
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: and we're grandiose and believed all this other stuff, and

1290
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: so they do. They do stick in. They stick in

1291
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: the history books, they stick in our minds. It's always

1292
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: been there. But when we think about the devalued voice,

1293
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: For example, someone who had more power in a relationship

1294
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: might have domineered someone Being able to physically abuse the

1295
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: spouse was legal until relatively recent and it still is

1296
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: in many parts.

1297
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 2: So it just wasn't seen as being a negative.

1298
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: It wasn't being seen as being a thing.

1299
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's wild to me that they don't assess these

1300
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 4: personalities before world leaders are, like the assessment that goes

1301
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 4: that people have to go through to become a leader

1302
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 4: or someone who to become someone who is leading other

1303
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 4: people or looking after them.

1304
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 2: It really surprised me after hearing.

1305
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 4: What you said that it's that's not part of the

1306
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 4: training or part of the Oh yeah.

1307
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: Not at all, not at all. In fact leadership, I

1308
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 1: would say the US government, look, I mean heavily, we

1309
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: have a house. It's very stacked towards narcissism who would

1310
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: put themselves through that, Like you must really want to be,

1311
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: like you know, of a certain powerful role and endure

1312
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: all that one endures in that role, Like I think

1313
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 1: a normal person like, no, thank you, I don't want that.

1314
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: And so the counter argument to what you're saying, though,

1315
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: some people would say, I wouldn't necessarily hold to this,

1316
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: but would say, when it comes time to hit the

1317
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: switch on having a war, yeah, you really want someone

1318
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 1: who's going to be thinking about empathy and children, like

1319
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 1: you want someone who's going to actually do something to

1320
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: safeguard a sovereign state. Right, So some people would say, okay,

1321
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: I almost think that the perfect way to do leadership

1322
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,920
Speaker 1: would be to have not a one person, but.

1323
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: Multiple people mutiple.

1324
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: Have your agreeable person in there, have your narcissistic person

1325
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: in there, and try to work towards consensus. And I

1326
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: think that's why we have cabinets and and all of that,

1327
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: But unfortunately all of them are it's a lot of

1328
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: narcissisms all the way around. They're not bringing the agreeable

1329
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: people kind of get selected out because almost like this

1330
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 1: is not for me. I want to spend time with

1331
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: the people I care about. I want a time on

1332
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,439
Speaker 1: that family like this, This whole power trip thing isn't

1333
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: my thing, right and so, But empathic leadership, there's a

1334
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: lot of really interesting work being written about it, and

1335
01:05:57,840 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: there are good outcomes. This idea of pie you impath,

1336
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: then you're not. You're not a hardcore. We're not going

1337
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: to make money on you. It's not true. No, I

1338
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: mean it's not true. A person could be empathic and

1339
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: I have a very very solid sense of how financial

1340
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: markets work and make some painful decisions in that position

1341
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: and still be empathic and not be abusive and not

1342
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: allow a culture of abuse to fester. But we just

1343
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: often those folks, like I said, often self select out

1344
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 1: some of the most empathic people I know. When it

1345
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: came to academic leadership, they could have become deans and this,

1346
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, I love my lab I love

1347
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: my students. I said, But what about the money, is like,

1348
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: I have enough money, I'm going I don't need more.

1349
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we be amazing to pick teams and to pick

1350
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 4: to really when they are hiring people. If personality in

1351
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 4: that respect was actually taken into account to create more

1352
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 4: of a balanced team yeah.

1353
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: I mean I think what you see rather there is

1354
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,919
Speaker 1: that there are assessments they use in the workplace. Because

1355
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,959
Speaker 1: I've worked with clients on this and it's a little

1356
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: bit too much of a superficial assessment. If you been

1357
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: the problems, if you want too deep with the assessment instruments,

1358
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 1: you'd have lawsuits flying all over the place, right. You

1359
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying that girl, if I had those

1360
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: assessment instruments, I'd be like no, no, no, no, no,

1361
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: no no no, because you would have you would literally

1362
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: get people saying that this is biased, this is your

1363
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, you pick up somebody with you and.

1364
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 4: Someone who come out so hard to assess it really is.

1365
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you so much for all of the information.

1366
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 4: I feel like it's been so so informative, so useful

1367
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 4: for people on a daily basis to be able to

1368
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 4: figure out the.

1369
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 2: People that they are living around.

1370
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 4: I feel like we just don't we assess people in

1371
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 4: such a superficial way.

1372
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: Right.

1373
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 4: We see people, we think about them based on what

1374
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 4: they look like, but their job is like the questions

1375
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 4: that we ask don't tend to be as thoughtful until

1376
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 4: we get to a place of knowing them. So deeply,

1377
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 4: and I think this helps others understand a different aspect

1378
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 4: to the people that they are around.

1379
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: A simple question, and I tell people this, I say,

1380
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: pay attention to how you feel while you're with someone,

1381
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,439
Speaker 1: and pay attention how you feel after you're not with them.

1382
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: By that, I mean you meet someone, can be someone new,

1383
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: and you might in the conversation, I am so enjoying

1384
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: this conversation, thinking to yourself subjectively, and then afterwards you're like,

1385
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 1: I feel I feel bigger, I feel stronger. Right, I

1386
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: have to say people say, well, no, narcissisty people are

1387
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: so charming and charismatic. You got to get away from

1388
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,520
Speaker 1: the fluff. It's not someone saying.

1389
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 5: You're so cool, you're so interesting, No, it's that person

1390
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 5: where you're getting into this place of there's a back

1391
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 5: and forth of a banter about something that you talk

1392
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 5: about vulnerabilities and good things and bad things, and you might.

1393
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: Find a shared affinity about X, Y and Z. Pay

1394
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: attention to that. How you go through the world after

1395
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: that conversation. I would guess in eight times out of ten,

1396
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: some very very good narcissistic people out there gonna be

1397
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: very charming, But eight times out of ten him. If

1398
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: you were to pay attention to that, you would say like, Okay,

1399
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: I knew it felt good. I can I can say honestly,

1400
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 1: the rare times my introverted ass goes to a party

1401
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 1: is that when I pay very much attention to and

1402
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: I remember recently spent a long time since I've been

1403
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: to one, because usually I either don't get invited to

1404
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: people or she is not good, She's just in the

1405
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: corner and talks to one person like you. But I

1406
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 1: I remember going to a party some time ago. It's

1407
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: like Mipe was December, and there was many several people,

1408
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: obviously many people. There was a party, and I got

1409
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: into a conversation with this one guy. He was the loveliest,

1410
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 1: loveliest person. And when we got together after the life

1411
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: is busy. He's a busy man, busy guy. But we

1412
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 1: had such a nice time, and it'll always stick in

1413
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,440
Speaker 1: my mind. There are other people I talked with, No

1414
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: I didn't feel it. I was like, can you tell

1415
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: me where the bathroom is? I'm sure everyone in Los

1416
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: Angeles must think I'd a urinary tract infecton, so I'm

1417
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: always like, I got to do the bathroom. Can tell

1418
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: me what the both. It's my way of getting out

1419
01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: of me too.

1420
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 2: I spent a love time about the in social situation

1421
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:01,720
Speaker 2: some time.

1422
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,600
Speaker 1: She's gone to the bathroom tonight, so I hope no

1423
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: one's tracking me. But it's a or I got to

1424
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: go grab a bite or something like that. That feeling right,

1425
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: and then you do feel it, and it's trusting that

1426
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: sense of not that they're pumping me up. What I

1427
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 1: liked about the person I enjoyed having a conversation with

1428
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: was he's such an interesting life and was answering those

1429
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 1: questions in such a humble manner. And then I think

1430
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: it's also what do we value in a person? Got

1431
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 1: to be honest with ourselves, Like if somebody really asked you,

1432
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: what qualities do you value in someone else? I would

1433
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 1: say humility matters a lot to be Empathy matters a

1434
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: lot to me. We need to know that. I can't

1435
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 1: imagine anyone ever saying the things I look for when

1436
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 1: I meet someone new are entitlement, grandiosity, and arrogance top three.

1437
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 2: No, that's nobody's top three.

1438
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: And if it is someone's top three, they're probably narcissistic.

1439
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: So I hope they find it in another person.

1440
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I love how self aware you are also

1441
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 4: that you know how to set your boundaries, because I

1442
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 4: think that's important. And I think, yeah, I know, but

1443
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 4: you just knowing yourself enough to not put yourselves into

1444
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 4: those situations, I don't know. Yeah, And a lot of

1445
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 4: people would say, like to me, I've had people say,

1446
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 4: you know, get out of your comfort zone or do

1447
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 4: this or do that, And sometimes I wonder, you know,

1448
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 4: from your experience outside of work and just as who

1449
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 4: you are, how did you get to a point where

1450
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 4: you became comfortable with just being who you are and

1451
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 4: not thinking that you're hiding from something or trying to

1452
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 4: stay away from something and not like just taking a

1453
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 4: step outside of your comfort zone. Like what's the difference

1454
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 4: between you staying in your comfort zone and not trying

1455
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 4: things versus just knowing this is this is who I am,

1456
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 4: and this is what makes me happy.

1457
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 1: I had to get hurt enough time, did you?

1458
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 2: Yep?

1459
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: You know, in many ways, it's been a devastating life.

1460
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: And I'm a lot older than you, and so I

1461
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 1: think there was a point where the broken hearts and

1462
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 1: the broken psyche piled up too high for me and

1463
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't about comfort zone anymore. It was really about safety.

1464
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 1: They must take care, I must, I must protect myself.

1465
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: To me, comfort zone, you want to go to comfort zone,

1466
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 1: bungee jump, jump out of a plane, scuba dive, like,

1467
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 1: that's comfort zone to me. But that we have this really,

1468
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: really good detector within us to know that harm is coming. Yeah,

1469
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: And when people say get out of your comfort zone

1470
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 1: as a way to be with that person, it's very

1471
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: dangerous guidance.

1472
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 2: Right in relationships.

1473
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the last question I want to ask you.

1474
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 4: That's what got you into this line of work.

1475
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 1: Not my own experience, Believe it or not. It was

1476
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,800
Speaker 1: actually very academic for me. Initially. I was when I

1477
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: was a university professor. I noticed that people with these

1478
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: personalities were wreaking havoc in primary care healthcare situations, and

1479
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: so that this is so interesting. Why doesn't anyone write

1480
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: about this? Nobody had been writing about it, And so

1481
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: I decided to write grants to an IH and do

1482
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 1: research on this and write about it and think about it,

1483
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 1: talk about it. And my own mentor said, Romedy, come on,

1484
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: don't do personality work. It's going to you know, puts

1485
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: you out sort of on this this sort of academic

1486
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 1: gulag and I'm like, that's really seems interesting. And at

1487
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 1: the same time, I was at a clinical practice and

1488
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:19,640
Speaker 1: I was seeing more and more clients where I was like,

1489
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,719
Speaker 1: maybe if I educate these people in these personality patterns,

1490
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: it'll help them and these relationships are in And as

1491
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 1: I was doing this work, doing this work, what was

1492
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 1: becoming fascinating to me was the almost the denial I

1493
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 1: had practiced, the pushing it down. I became so aware

1494
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: of these patterns in my life and that to blow

1495
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: up situations in my life, like to step away from

1496
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: some of these harmful relationships, it was going to blow

1497
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: up my life. And it was. It was defying every

1498
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 1: childhood teaching, it was defying almost every societal teaching, and

1499
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 1: it was. But it was Yet it took me doing

1500
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 1: all the research, doing clinical practice, and only then did

1501
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 1: I come to the inside of wait a minute, really, yeah,

1502
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 1: if it wasn't my personal experience that brought me into this.

1503
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: It's my personal experience though, that I think become the

1504
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: strong tent poles that commit me to this work. And

1505
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: so when people say no, no, no, this isn't a thing,

1506
01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, no, this is a thing. Trust me

1507
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: on this and it You know, your world gets smaller

1508
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 1: when you go through this enough. And I have worked

1509
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 1: with clients I myself over and over bad luck. Some

1510
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 1: of it's just bad luck. You keep picking the wrong

1511
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: black jack table in the casino, right, you know, it's

1512
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 1: just bad luck. And and then part of it is

1513
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 1: is beyond bad luck. It was maybe working through Maybe

1514
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 1: this time it could be different, And so there's a

1515
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 1: caution and there's a tentativeness. I always look like someone

1516
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 1: who's trying to make sure the ice is thick enough

1517
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 1: to stand on. That's my process, that my journey. I'm

1518
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 1: good with it.

1519
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 4: How did you with any of the trauma that you've

1520
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 4: been through in your life? Would you say that you

1521
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 4: have been able to heal from it where you look

1522
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 4: back at it and don't feel pain, or would you

1523
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 4: say that trauma is something like the things that you've

1524
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 4: been through. Have you healed from it? Is it something

1525
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 4: you feel you can heal from fully? Or would you

1526
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 4: say that it has you know, what were your mechanisms

1527
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 4: of even getting to this point where you feel comfortable

1528
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:15,600
Speaker 4: enough to share and talk about it?

1529
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: And right, I think healing is not the removal of

1530
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: the pain. I think healing is the colocation and protection

1531
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: of the pain. Right, So this idea that you know again,

1532
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: it's that that's sort of the internal eternals on China's

1533
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: spotless mind, right, there is no spotless mind. And so

1534
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: it's to understand that those are the vulnerabilities and that

1535
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,760
Speaker 1: you can draw your arms around those within yourself that

1536
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: they're not And I think the way I know I've healed,

1537
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 1: I don't view them as much as much. I still

1538
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: sometimes have my moments as points of damage, you know,

1539
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 1: but rather that you know, unfortunate painful experiences, bad log

1540
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 1: call it what you will, karma. I think that when

1541
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 1: we use this word healing, it's never it's never an outcome.

1542
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 1: It's always an ongoing process, and it's the self compassion

1543
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 1: and the self forgiveness that comes from I had a

1544
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 1: strong reaction to this day. I need to go and

1545
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 1: lie down. There was a time and I'd say, no,

1546
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: now you're gonna I'm gonna punish you by you work

1547
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 1: harder now, right, And so now I was like, no,

1548
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 1: it's time to call this day done. I had a

1549
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 1: day like that recently, and I said, this day is done. Yeah,

1550
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, there's been too much hurt in this day,

1551
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,920
Speaker 1: and so I think that that to me the process

1552
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,880
Speaker 1: of healing. When I work with survivors of narcissistic relationships

1553
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 1: on healing, it's that capacity to care for yourself and

1554
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:42,879
Speaker 1: not continually almost harm yourself because that's the only narrative

1555
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: we sort of know, but we do. We care it

1556
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,640
Speaker 1: in our bodies. It doesn't go away. It's telling us

1557
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 1: something and if anything, it's a sign of slow down,

1558
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: not safe, be gentle with yourself, or get the hell

1559
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: out of there.

1560
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:58,920
Speaker 4: Were there any specific mechanisms or things that you did

1561
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,480
Speaker 4: that you found helped you most throughout your life to

1562
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 4: keep going and to see like the light or like

1563
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 4: that life can get better for anybody who's going through

1564
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 4: it right now.

1565
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,919
Speaker 1: Therapy was very important for me what kind of therapy

1566
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 1: I happen to be, and I work with a therapist

1567
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 1: is very humanistic in her focus getting up and having

1568
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 1: something to do right, you know. So I've either been

1569
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: an academic or a clinician, so that that's always been

1570
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: something bigger outside of me.

1571
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 4: Not leaving yourself too much time to not have much

1572
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 4: to do. I've realized that as well, not having an

1573
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 4: idol like not having too much space I think is

1574
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 4: really important, Like you don't have to be too structured

1575
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,760
Speaker 4: in life, but to avoid yourself, whether it's going back

1576
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 4: into bad habits or bad foot patterns. Having a busyness

1577
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 4: to your day is really important, like having it filled

1578
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 4: with things which are good, not too busy where you're

1579
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 4: you're running yourself dry.

1580
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:52,639
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean rest.

1581
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,320
Speaker 4: It means keeping your mind engaged in things which help

1582
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 4: you to get better.

1583
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 1: Right, they're also the meaningful and intentional. Right for me,

1584
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: it was exactly in clinician. It was teaching, it was

1585
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 1: learning more about this, it was all of those things.

1586
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 1: I'm very unbalanced. I need more balance in my life.

1587
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: I need to do more things that are good for me.

1588
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 1: I think that's still the sort of the trauma hurt

1589
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 1: part of me still talking. I became a mother, you know,

1590
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: I mean my elder daughters now twenty three, and so

1591
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 1: that's transformative. All of a sudden you realize your body

1592
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:32,640
Speaker 1: does something that is miraculous and it produces food and

1593
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: it's nurturance, and I'm like, that's what all this is

1594
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: for it. You feel differently about your body after that,

1595
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,639
Speaker 1: and I think that mothering is the hardest thing I've

1596
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: ever done. It was an important thing. I'm the kind

1597
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 1: of gal who could easily have missed that mothering journey.

1598
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 1: So I really do think that this is something that

1599
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 1: the universe put in front of me as part of

1600
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 1: this process. It made me want to be better, make

1601
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 1: the world better for them. I also feel tremendously indebted

1602
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: to my ancestors, to the women who always came, who

1603
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: came before me, who had none of the opportunities recently

1604
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 1: as my grandmother and my mother, and my mother's the

1605
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 1: most extraordinary woman I know in terms of strength, fortitude, everything.

1606
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: She's just really an extraordinary woman. And her life was

1607
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:18,680
Speaker 1: very much a sacrifice which made so much possible for me,

1608
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 1: which feels like a responsibility, huge responsibility. You know, generations

1609
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: before that married, you know, made to Mary very young,

1610
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 1: didn't get to complete educations completely, had all voice taken away.

1611
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 4: There's a different builds the whole mindset, body, everything is

1612
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 4: just it was create. You're right, the way that they

1613
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:40,720
Speaker 4: had to deal with things and the things that they

1614
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 4: went through and still to this day have the most

1615
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 4: like positive outlook to life. I find better than even

1616
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 4: what we have when we have less that happens in

1617
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:51,759
Speaker 4: our life and we think the whole.

1618
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 1: Resilience and so I think that for me, it's almost

1619
01:19:56,200 --> 01:20:00,759
Speaker 1: the sense of these ancestors, these women women, maybe probably

1620
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 1: sure some of the men of my lineage. They to

1621
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: be the first after so many hundreds of generators and

1622
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 1: with the math on that is, to be the one

1623
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: who gets the voice right is a You know, my

1624
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 1: mom gave up everything and had us and stayed in

1625
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 1: this country and had no support and had nothing. I mean,

1626
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 1: it was what she went through is remarkable and that

1627
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: I take that on as a responsibility as you know

1628
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: that that then you were given voice. And for me

1629
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 1: to not use that voice to help people, I don't know.

1630
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 1: That's really mean.

1631
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 2: Everyone very very important to me.

1632
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: So hey, I take all that put it together. The

1633
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,640
Speaker 1: suffering of folks who have been through these relationships is

1634
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 1: I struggled seeing it. I see, I get sick when

1635
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: I stopped to think the amount of lost potential there's

1636
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: been because people have been in a relationship with somebody

1637
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: who invalidated them and told them they weren't important. The

1638
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:05,799
Speaker 1: number of things and pieces of art, writing, science changes

1639
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 1: in the world. We've missed because people felt that they

1640
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: had no right. It makes me sick. So if to

1641
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 1: the degree somebody might be even one person here's it

1642
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 1: and says, okay, I'm going to put put myself out

1643
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 1: there that that to me feels really really important. So

1644
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:23,639
Speaker 1: thank you, thank.

1645
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 2: You, thank you so much.

1646
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:27,719
Speaker 4: And yeah, I hope you can continue this conversation another

1647
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 4: time and I can't wait to read more and listen

1648
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 4: more to you.

1649
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 1: Great, well, well talk again. I have a new book

1650
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: coming out in February, so amazing. It's called It's Not You,

1651
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 1: Identifying and Healing from the narcissistic people in your life.

1652
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:45,599
Speaker 1: So to break the cycles himself.

1653
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:49,719
Speaker 4: Everybody, please go and check out everything that Dr Romney

1654
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 4: has spoken about and shared. She has beautiful videos on YouTube,

1655
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 4: she has unlimited information in her books, and she's also

1656
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 4: just such a wonderful, loving person. And I can feel

1657
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 4: letting that energy here. So thank you again, thank you

1658
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 4: so much, BRODDI