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Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm West Gasova today. One trillion dollars. That's how much

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Speaker 1: the biggest US banks made in just the past decade. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you heard that right. And if a trillion dollars sounds

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Speaker 1: like a lot, well it definitely caught the eye of

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Speaker 1: two of my colleagues here at Bloomberg. Reporters, Max Abelson

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Speaker 1: and Hannah Levitt cover the world of Wall Street day

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Speaker 1: in and day out, but that enormous some made even

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Speaker 1: them wonder how did the banks, which have always been

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Speaker 1: profitable suddenly become much much more profitable in such a

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Speaker 1: short time. They're here with me now to tell us

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Speaker 1: what they found out. Hannah Lovett Sableson, Thanks for being here,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having us, Thanks for having us. So you've

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Speaker 1: written this big story in which you discovered that the

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Speaker 1: big banks have made a trillion dollars in profit, not revenue,

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Speaker 1: but profit in the last decade. And as I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this, I kind of had I was mixed

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Speaker 1: feelings because I was like, well, that's surprising, but then

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Speaker 1: I sort of thought, well, that's not surprising because they're

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Speaker 1: the banks, So what is it about a trillion dollars

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Speaker 1: that caught your attention might for one thing, it's an

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Speaker 1: extremely big number, so I feel like I have to

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Speaker 1: be my true self and tell you how superficial journalists

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Speaker 1: are and we love enormous round numbers. You shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: surprised because we're living through an era of inequality. We're

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Speaker 1: living through an era of corporate profits, for sure. But

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Speaker 1: I think you know, even though Hannah and I have

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Speaker 1: been covering the big banks for years now, there was

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Speaker 1: also an element of our mouths fell open when we

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Speaker 1: realized the scale of the profits is one thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just such a huge number. But the other thing

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind is that this industry has faced

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Speaker 1: just one scandal after another, starting with the kind of

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Speaker 1: error scandal of the two thousand eight financial crisis. But

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Speaker 1: they just find new ways year in and year out

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Speaker 1: to make an astonishing amount of profit, even when compared

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Speaker 1: with the fact that we're kind of living in it

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Speaker 1: in the era of giant tech profit. You know, Wall

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Speaker 1: Street is right behind them, and scandals can't stop them.

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Speaker 1: It's quite an incredible machine. Hannah max me an interesting

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Speaker 1: point which they the banks sort of started out the

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Speaker 1: last decade just crawling out of the global financial crisis,

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Speaker 1: which obviously kind of shook the foundations of the banking industry,

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Speaker 1: and then layered on top of that where all these

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Speaker 1: new government regulations that the bank said, we're going to

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Speaker 1: crush them and hamper their ability to profit, and yet

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Speaker 1: they came back in a big way despite all of that. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And I'll note that Max and I did the story

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Speaker 1: when the big six banks hit a hundred billion and

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Speaker 1: annual profit that was in the two of us teamed

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Speaker 1: up for a story on that. So really, if you

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Speaker 1: think about that, that was kind of that first landmark

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Speaker 1: right at the end of and now we're already at

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Speaker 1: a trillion for a decade. That shows you just, you know,

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Speaker 1: how lucrative these past couple of years have been as well.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good point. I kind of want to

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Speaker 1: dig into that. It's something that stood out in your

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Speaker 1: story was there seemed to be this kind of slow

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Speaker 1: recovery and then boom, and you write about a couple

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Speaker 1: big things that sort of we're like rocket fuel behind

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Speaker 1: the banks. One fun thing about writing about Wall Street

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Speaker 1: is it you're never really just writing about six big banks.

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Speaker 1: I mean even apart from the fact that Wall Street

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Speaker 1: includes you know, all sorts of fun stuff like private

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Speaker 1: equity giants and hedge fund billionaires. The story of Wall

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Speaker 1: Street and the story of Wall Street profits is the

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Speaker 1: story of the American government and regulators and politicians. And

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Speaker 1: you know, we're not getting around when we say that

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Speaker 1: our beat is like the landscape of money and power,

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Speaker 1: because it really is power with the capital p Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump started campaigning by I mean, essentially making fun of

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Speaker 1: the banks, and I think, either implicitly or explicitly kind

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Speaker 1: of threatening to break them up instead. Though, when Trump

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Speaker 1: took the White House, he put two former Goldman SAX executives,

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Speaker 1: Stephen Manuchin and Gary Comb, and he put them in

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Speaker 1: charge of an overhaul that transformed taxes in this country,

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Speaker 1: especially transformed taxes for corporate giants. And I think Hanna

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Speaker 1: and I would be hard pressed to find something as

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Speaker 1: powerful as what Trump did to corporate taxes because you

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Speaker 1: can see the bank's goe from getting used to paying

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Speaker 1: you know, call it three out of ten dollars in taxes,

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Speaker 1: now they're paying less than one in five. That's not

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Speaker 1: to make it sound like that Wall Street didn't do

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Speaker 1: anything of their own volition to make that money. But

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Speaker 1: it was a huge, huge moment in this decade. And

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Speaker 1: how big are we talking about in natural dollars between

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Speaker 1: before the big Trump tax cuts and after? In terms

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Speaker 1: of profit? Did that mean for banks? For the banks

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Speaker 1: almost doubled the amount of profit that they made. That's

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Speaker 1: pre tax cut to post tax cut. Correct. You can

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Speaker 1: see just about everything for the banks transform right around

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Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen. Look, you know, if Donald Trump were

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Speaker 1: in an office and if that tax cut didn't happen

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Speaker 1: with the big banks have found a way to make

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, I'm sure they would have. But

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Speaker 1: you can really see the big banks go from making

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Speaker 1: a lot of money in the beginning of our tenure

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Speaker 1: period to making a lot of money. We're talking here

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Speaker 1: about a total assets, we're talking about the profits. Two

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Speaker 1: thousand eighteen isn't the beyond end all, but it's a

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Speaker 1: kind of hinge moment where the banks go from lucrative

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Speaker 1: to so lucrative that they make this trillion dollars some

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Speaker 1: over ten years. So the tax cut was one of

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Speaker 1: the big things that helped boost banks profits. What's the

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Speaker 1: other one? After the two thousand eighteen tax cuts, we

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Speaker 1: had COVID just a couple of years after that, and

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Speaker 1: it's hard to remember now, but the chaos and the

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Speaker 1: confusion and the desperation of those early months, I think

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Speaker 1: for just about everybody in the world had an odd

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Speaker 1: parallel state in financial markets where things were actually looking

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Speaker 1: pretty good in a way, and the COVID era, thanks

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Speaker 1: not only to trading desks either embracing or really really

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Speaker 1: relying on volatility to make money, but in addition to that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had central banks around the world buying

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Speaker 1: up assets at a scale you know, we've never seen

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Speaker 1: in world history, trillions and trillions of dollars of assets

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Speaker 1: bought up by central banks. And what that allowed was

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Speaker 1: financial markets to breathe a sire of relief. I think

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Speaker 1: there would have been real financial and economic mayhem had

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Speaker 1: that not happened. And you see a boom, not just

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Speaker 1: in two thousand twenty when there could have been a collapse,

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Speaker 1: but in two thousand twenty one, when it's paired with

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Speaker 1: a kind of a new kind of deal making boom.

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Speaker 1: You know, it created a level of profit that overshadowed

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Speaker 1: anything Hanna and I looked at two thousand twenty one

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Speaker 1: was so profitable for the six banks that if memory serves,

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Speaker 1: they made more than they had in two thousand thirteen

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Speaker 1: and two thousand fourteen put together. Yeah, I'll just jump

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Speaker 1: in there in an interesting way of looking at it,

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Speaker 1: although potentially slightly oversimplified, But COVID sets in right in

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Speaker 1: March of and there was so much craziness in the

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Speaker 1: market at the time and also really bad outlooks as

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Speaker 1: far as what was going to happen with you know,

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Speaker 1: the labor market and things like that, and so there's

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Speaker 1: an immediate boost to volatility, and that means that banks

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Speaker 1: are making money on their trading desks, so that happens.

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Speaker 1: Then things calmed down a bit, and there's a deal

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Speaker 1: making boom, and that's that underwriting, equity underwriting and and

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Speaker 1: advising on mergers and acquisitions. And then we get to

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Speaker 1: last year and all the money that the banks, not

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Speaker 1: all of it, but a good chunk of it that

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Speaker 1: the banks had set aside in potentially soured loans when

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Speaker 1: things were looking really bad. Those soured loans in large

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Speaker 1: parts did not materialize. So then profit was boosted last

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Speaker 1: year by bringing those reserves back in, and that flowed

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Speaker 1: through to the bottom line. So then you look at

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Speaker 1: you know, JP Morgan, the biggest bank, made the most

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Speaker 1: money in the history of America in banking last year

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Speaker 1: as a result of all of those things you've mentioned

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Speaker 1: several times. The Big Six, can you name them for

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Speaker 1: me absolutely? JP Morgan, Bank of America, City Group, Wells Fargo, Goldman, Sachs,

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Speaker 1: and Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Which is the most profitable blank?

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Speaker 1: How much more profitable is it than say, the others

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Speaker 1: on the list? Is there a big jump down from them?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you say that, because at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of this era that wasn't true. Wells Fargo was

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Speaker 1: the only bank among the six pulling in more than

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Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars a year. And lo and behold, they

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Speaker 1: hit all these troubles, a lot of themselves inflicted, some

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Speaker 1: of themselves inflicted. That's exactly right. I mean, who better

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Speaker 1: to tell you than a handle of it, Hannah? What

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Speaker 1: was Wells up to? So if you rewind ten years,

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Speaker 1: Wells Fargo was at the top of its game. They

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Speaker 1: were mortgage giant, and they were really um. At one

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Speaker 1: point they were making one out of every three home

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Speaker 1: loans in the United States. They were the most profitable,

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Speaker 1: they were the most valuable. Warren Buffett was still all

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Speaker 1: in on them. So all these things, and then in

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Speaker 1: two sen a series of scandals really erupted into the

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Speaker 1: public eye. Um, and it was over these fake accounts

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Speaker 1: that employees, under pressure to meet sales goals had created

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Speaker 1: on behalf of customers without their knowledge or consent. And

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Speaker 1: that's what kicked it off. And then from their scandals

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Speaker 1: popped up in other business lines as well, in mortgage,

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Speaker 1: in auto. Virtually every major business line was impacted by this,

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Speaker 1: and they wound up paying massive fines. Oh yeah, there

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Speaker 1: was a recent consumer financial protection we are a one.

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Speaker 1: It was three point seven billion dollars and one point

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Speaker 1: seven billion of that was a fine, and then the

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Speaker 1: other two was remediation, so making customers whole. And you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a three billion dollar one with the Justice

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Speaker 1: Department in the Securities and Exchange Commission. And those are

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Speaker 1: not the only ones, but those are the bigger ones.

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Speaker 1: So at some point in the last decade, JP Morgan

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Speaker 1: took the crown as the biggest by market cap and

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Speaker 1: as the most profitable market gap and extremely fancy phrase

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Speaker 1: that means market capitalization. That the total value of every

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Speaker 1: public company. And what is it that JP Morgan's business

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Speaker 1: did that made it leap ahead of the others. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's stray gantic for one thing. The size of the

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Speaker 1: part of it is that fair, Hannah, Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: huge part of it. I mean, they bought bear Sterns

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Speaker 1: in the crisis. They brought Washington Mutual in the crisis.

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Speaker 1: So there you have JP Morgan. Can we round out

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Speaker 1: the top three and just talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what's different about each of these banks and their approach.

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Speaker 1: One fun way to think about it is that Wall

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Speaker 1: Street makes so much money and has made so much

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Speaker 1: money over the last ten years, that very few, I

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Speaker 1: mean really a handful of companies make more than JP

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Bank of America and even Walls Fargo. Those

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Speaker 1: are the three that make the most, but City Group

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Speaker 1: and Goldman and Morgan Stanley aren't far behind. I think

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Speaker 1: for listeners that might be easiest to think about it

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Speaker 1: that Morgan, Stanley and Goldman Sacks are the kind of

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Speaker 1: old line classic Wall Street institutions, even though their banks

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Speaker 1: technically now JP Morgan, Wells Fargo, Bank of America does

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Speaker 1: much more consumer work. Yeah, absolutely so JP Morgan. It's

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Speaker 1: the biggest on main Street, and it's the biggest on

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Speaker 1: Wall Street as far as trading, you know. And then

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Speaker 1: you can look at something like Wells Fargo, which is

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Speaker 1: more much more heavily weighted toward the consumer. And then

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Speaker 1: you can look at Goldman and Morgan Stanley that are

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Speaker 1: very heavily weighted toward investment banking. So if you think

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Speaker 1: about you know, JP Morgan is massive in both. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, each of those that I just listed

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Speaker 1: competes primarily, you know, in the case of Wells on

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Speaker 1: the consumer side and in the case of Goldman Morgan

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Speaker 1: Stanley on the investment banking and trading side. Anna and

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Speaker 1: Max please stick around. We'll continue this conversation after the break.

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Speaker 1: So the banks, no matter what approach they took, whether

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Speaker 1: they were focused on you know, you're savings comped down

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Speaker 1: the street or if they were focused on putting to

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Speaker 1: the other big mega deals for corporations, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of money to be made no matter what. But

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Speaker 1: don't forget, you know, just how Harriet got there. West.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my mind turned to one m dB, the

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Speaker 1: famous Malaysian cliptocracy case. The former part minister that was

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Speaker 1: sentenced to prison for that. Goldman sax raise billions of

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Speaker 1: dollars for that deal that was then stolen by a group.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to a former compliance executive Goldman who talked

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Speaker 1: about like the immense regret he has for not catching

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Speaker 1: it despite the work he and his colleagues put in.

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Speaker 1: Then obviously there's Wells Fargo. But you know, when the

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Speaker 1: decade started, JP Morgan was kind of in the doghouse.

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Speaker 1: Remember the phrase the London Whale. You know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of faded from memory now, but what went down with London, Well,

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Speaker 1: what's a good way of describing it. So the London

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Speaker 1: Whale was basically a massive trading loss that JP Morgan

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Speaker 1: suffered billions of dollars multi billion. First executives kind of

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Speaker 1: dismissed it, and then it grew and it grew even larger,

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Speaker 1: and Jamie Diamond, the CEO and chairman of JP Morgan,

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Speaker 1: was hauled before Congress for a hearing and it was

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Speaker 1: really a big deal in post crisis, but still banks

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Speaker 1: facing a lot of backlash environment and so that was

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Speaker 1: kind of right before the decade that we're looking at here.

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Speaker 1: So JP Morgan was fresh off that and uh, as

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Speaker 1: we mentioned, Wells Fargo was on top of the world.

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Speaker 1: You know. Hearing Hannah talked about London Well reminds me

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Speaker 1: that the subject that we're reporting on here, you know,

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Speaker 1: the scale of Wall Street profits, it's a fraud subject.

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Speaker 1: I think that people who have a memory, you know,

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Speaker 1: if not of occupy Wall Street, you know, a memory

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Speaker 1: of the two financial crisis, when the banks played a

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Speaker 1: role in really threatening the global economic order. And I

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Speaker 1: think that maybe some readers might, you know, cheer profits,

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Speaker 1: especially if they're shareholders. But I'm sure there are readers

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Speaker 1: who think, well, geez, how are the banks making this money?

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Speaker 1: What are they risking? And I think there's a sense

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Speaker 1: that you can't make this kind of money without a

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Speaker 1: lot of risk. And I guess if we had a

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Speaker 1: Wall Street executive here with us, they might point out

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Speaker 1: that this was a pretty good decade from to public

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Speaker 1: safety and soundness. You know, we're living through a kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy financial hiccup right now, the collapse of crypto,

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Speaker 1: but that's, you know, that is not a threat to

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Speaker 1: the big banks. It's gruesome, it's grotesque, but it's we've

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Speaker 1: seen crypto firms fail, but you know, not the big banks.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to point out that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be a defender of Wall Street

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Speaker 1: t acknowledge that this decade was pretty good for the

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Speaker 1: general banking system. I don't just me and the bankers

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Speaker 1: who got to make money, or even the shareholders who

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Speaker 1: got to enjoy some of the profits. Nothing went quite

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Speaker 1: so wrong in the last decade, unless, of course, you

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Speaker 1: want to count you know, the Wells Fargo retail scandal

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Speaker 1: and lots of other things too. So we've heard about

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Speaker 1: how the banks made a lot of money in the

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Speaker 1: last decade, But who benefited from all that profit? Who

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Speaker 1: are the ones who? In classic Wall Street fashion, who

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Speaker 1: are the winners and who are the losers? The obvious

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Speaker 1: answer that jumps to mind is that the bankers benefited

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Speaker 1: from the banks making this amount of money. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is not a world where, you know, you get

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Speaker 1: to be one of the very very richest people on earth. Um,

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Speaker 1: But it does meant a couple of billionaires like JP

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Speaker 1: Morgan's head Jamie Divan and former Golden Sex bus BOYD

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Speaker 1: Blank find but you know, buy and large. What we're

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Speaker 1: talking about here are bankers making um sometimes millions and

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars thanks to Wall Street's good times. But

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Speaker 1: speaking of a kind of larger group, bank shareholders benefited

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Speaker 1: an era of profit for any kind of public company

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Speaker 1: benefits you know, in most cases public shareholders. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that that, on the one hand, that means

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Speaker 1: a slightly bigger group if we're comparing it to the

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Speaker 1: narrow range of bankers. But I think it's also important

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Speaker 1: to point out that, you know, not everyone in this

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Speaker 1: country owns stock, and that in order to gain from

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Speaker 1: the growth of corporate profit, you know, you have to

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Speaker 1: have enough money to have savings and don't shares in

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Speaker 1: the first place. So you could think of this as

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Speaker 1: part of the much broader story of widening inequality in

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Speaker 1: the country and around the world. Ironically, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about making money on Wall Street and when we talk

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Speaker 1: about you know, even in a quality in Wall Street,

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Speaker 1: we're not really talking about the world's biggest winners. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've been kind of it's it's like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: a combination of shocking and humbling over the years as

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Speaker 1: a finance reporter to realize that, you know, you speak

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Speaker 1: to these people that you know, they're their paychecks dwarf

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Speaker 1: hours and you know, they to all the world they

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Speaker 1: look like true winners, um, the winners of kind of

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Speaker 1: the game of capitalism. But they themselves compare their checks

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Speaker 1: two bigger ones than their and the the story of

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Speaker 1: inequality in America is really lots of stories of different

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Speaker 1: kinds of inequality. One of the kinds of inequality is

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Speaker 1: that the really rich people have gotten much richer than

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Speaker 1: the merely rich. And you know, I can't tell you

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Speaker 1: how often I've heard from wealthy people on Wall Street

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling sorry for themselves because they're missing out

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Speaker 1: on you know, I don't know, the crypto boom, or

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Speaker 1: because tech executives are making more, or because private equity.

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Speaker 1: You know, billionaires are worth a hundred times more than

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Speaker 1: they are. We're talking about wealth and we're talking about eat.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's helpful to point out that Wall

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Speaker 1: Street is not the richest in fact, compared to Apple,

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Speaker 1: Apple alone, you know, Wall Street is a snooze fest.

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Speaker 1: I want to say, Apple made I think, more than

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Speaker 1: half a trillion dollars by itself over this decade. When

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Speaker 1: you know, in order to reach Trillian, we combine these

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Speaker 1: six banks, you know, the banks that are smaller than

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Speaker 1: these mega banks that have gotten even larger over the

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Speaker 1: past decade, right, and they have more money to use

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Speaker 1: to bolster their offerings and compete in ways that these

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Speaker 1: smaller banks can't because they're smaller and they make less money.

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Speaker 1: And so when you look at the consolidation that's happened,

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Speaker 1: you know, even if you go a level down from

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Speaker 1: these giant banks that we're talking about that are the

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Speaker 1: focus of our story, there's been a lot of consolidation

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Speaker 1: even among the biggest regional banks. So I can think

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Speaker 1: of you know, bb and T and SunTrust emerging to

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Speaker 1: create Truest a few years ago, and the justification are

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Speaker 1: part of the justification there, and with a lot of

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Speaker 1: these tie ups is that it better enables them to

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Speaker 1: spend more to compete. Hasn't been just good for Americans

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Speaker 1: that banks are making that much money? I think it

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Speaker 1: might be too hard for hand or to give you

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Speaker 1: this really satisfyingly simple answer like yeah, it's been awesome

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Speaker 1: for America, or no, it's terrible for America that Wall

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Speaker 1: Streets doing so well. I think that you know, you

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Speaker 1: can have an optimistic view that to be on Wall

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Speaker 1: Street is to allocy capital efficiently and it's to help businesses,

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Speaker 1: and it's to help people, and that means helping Americans.

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Speaker 1: But you can also be a little more cynical. And

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Speaker 1: I'm referring here not just outsiders and critics, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I've talked to people who rose pretty high on Wall

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Speaker 1: Street who leave with, you know, maybe a sense that

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Speaker 1: what goes on it's not evil, but you know that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have the kind of meaning that they were

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Speaker 1: searching for. I'm thinking here of Wall Street veteran who's

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Speaker 1: telling me kind of just the other day that you know,

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Speaker 1: he has a sense that trading, especially derivatives back and forth,

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Speaker 1: that amounts to very little at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: But you know, if one of his former trading colleagues

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Speaker 1: heard him say that, he would have pointed out that

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Speaker 1: it's what makes the world go around. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if finance weren't doing it, it would be a big problem.

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Speaker 1: I think a little bit of cynicism and a little

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Speaker 1: bit of optimism about the meaning of these businesses is

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Speaker 1: probably a healthy combination. Yeah, I'll just jump in there

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Speaker 1: to say that, you know, if you subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: argument that all this money that these big banks are

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Speaker 1: making is the effect of healthy economy over the past decade.

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Speaker 1: Then you could argue that it's a good thing. But

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Speaker 1: if you subscribe to the argument that banks shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: this big, banks shouldn't be too big to fail, if

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Speaker 1: you will, then it wouldn't necessarily be a good things.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, to Max's point, I think I

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Speaker 1: would defer to an actual philosopher on that. But there

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Speaker 1: are interesting ways of looking at it. Although let me

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Speaker 1: note read our story because we did interview a philosopher,

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Speaker 1: an ethicist who used to be a partner Woman's X

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Speaker 1: but believe the ethics and philosophy to him. Though. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back, and we're talking about the spectacular profits

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Speaker 1: of banks. As Max, you know, mentioned, they aren't the

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Speaker 1: biggest earners tech sector and other really big corporations they

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Speaker 1: made even more so, where does the banking industry kind

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Speaker 1: of sit in the pantheon of incredible profits? You know,

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Speaker 1: that's a great question and one that I think has

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Speaker 1: the potential to really bounce around in the coming years,

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Speaker 1: right because you look at you know, all that's happening

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Speaker 1: with the economy right now, with the federal reserves rate

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Speaker 1: hikes and persistent inflation and also the decline of a

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Speaker 1: lot of tech stocks and things like that. So there

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Speaker 1: are multiple drivers that I think will determine the ultimate

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Speaker 1: answer to that question. And also things like the banks

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Speaker 1: are looking like they're in pretty good shape regardless of

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Speaker 1: you know, any economic circumstances that might be coming our way.

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Speaker 1: But time will tell as far as testing that. So

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Speaker 1: I think that that remains to be seen. If the

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Speaker 1: banks keep making this unhanded amount of money, will have

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun next year. But if things sour

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Speaker 1: and they start struggling, I mean, it will be interesting

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Speaker 1: for us in its own way. But if you want

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Speaker 1: to trust analysts, you know they're they're just gonna keep

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Speaker 1: on making more money and let's think can be bigger

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Speaker 1: than last year. And why do they say that? One

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Speaker 1: key reason there is that when the federal reserves interest

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Speaker 1: rates go up, the banks make more money in something

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Speaker 1: called net interest income, which is the amount that they

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Speaker 1: are earning on the loans they made, so the interest

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Speaker 1: that people are paying them on loans minus the interest

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Speaker 1: that they're paying out on deposits. So we've already seen

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Speaker 1: some of that. In the third quarter, JP Morgan had

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Speaker 1: its highest quarterly net interest income ever, and rates have

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Speaker 1: continued to go up are expected to continue to go up,

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Speaker 1: so we'll see some more of that. That will be

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Speaker 1: a driver there, you know, coming out of COVID and

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Speaker 1: the really high volatility there that boosted trading desks. There

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Speaker 1: was executives and analysts and pretty much anyone you asked

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Speaker 1: was saying, Oh, at some point this will normalize. And

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Speaker 1: what does normalize mean. It means it'll go down to levels.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it normalizes to levels or something like that,

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Speaker 1: then it goes back down to near the level of

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Speaker 1: But then people were saying that was gonna happen this year,

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Speaker 1: and then Russia invaded Ukraine and so there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of volatility around that, and the banks have made

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Speaker 1: a ton of money on their training desks this year.

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Speaker 1: So if when there's a quote unquote normalization remains to

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Speaker 1: be seen, but it certainly hasn't been this year. And

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Speaker 1: I guess that's a good point when you talk about

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Speaker 1: the difference between the banking industry and say the tech industry,

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Speaker 1: where when things are volatile, things are jumping, that presents

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Speaker 1: opportunities to buy and to earn on the volatility for

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Speaker 1: the banks, whereas if things are voll over for the

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Speaker 1: tech companies. You see, they are getting hit pretty hard

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Speaker 1: and so they're certainly looking a lot worse at the

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Speaker 1: end of this year. But the banks are looking to

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Speaker 1: just spine. Yeah, that's a good points. Maybe this is

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Speaker 1: true of all journalists. But I feel like I'm an

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Speaker 1: anxious person when things are getting crazy. I get a

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Speaker 1: little scared when I die. I want to come back

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Speaker 1: this Wall Street. You know where volatility is. You know

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Speaker 1: something to be embraced. It's lucrative. It's a fine to

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Speaker 1: be afraid of. And I Lovett. Max Tabelson, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for talking to me today. Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You can read Hannah and Max's story about Wall Streets

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Speaker 1: runaway profits at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: us here at The Big Take, the daily podcast from

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. Read today's story and subscribe to

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Speaker 1: questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net.

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Speaker 1: with another Big Take.