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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and Rob and I are

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Speaker 2: out this week, so we're bringing you an episode from

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Speaker 2: the vault. This is sort of part four in our

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Speaker 2: series that we started reairing last week about throwing behaviors

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Speaker 2: in non human animals. But here we're getting, of course,

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Speaker 2: to the emergence of throwing behaviors in humans and human ancestors.

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy and oh this one originally published

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Speaker 2: January twelfth, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part four

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Speaker 2: of our series on throwing behavior. Now, in previous parts

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Speaker 2: we focused mainly on non human animals. We've looked at

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Speaker 2: alleged throwing behaviors in octopuses, in elephants, in the mongoose.

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Speaker 2: We definitely had a digression about dogs with air Bud

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Speaker 2: in the previous episode. But also in the previous episode

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Speaker 2: we ended up talking about the evolution of the human

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Speaker 2: capacity for throwing, which we are particularly apt at Humans

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Speaker 2: are very good at throwing, especially compared to our nearest

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Speaker 2: primate relatives. So like a chimpanzee maybe on average three

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Speaker 2: or four times stronger than a human, But a human,

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Speaker 2: even without specialized training, can generally throw a lot more

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Speaker 2: forcefully and a lot better than a chimpanzee can. So

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Speaker 2: why are we so specialized for throwing? Well, we took

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Speaker 2: a look at some evolutionary hypotheses about where our capacity

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Speaker 2: for throwing comes from. But there was another thing that

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Speaker 2: I came across while researching this subject that I did

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Speaker 2: not get into in the previous episode, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to come back to it here because I found it

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Speaker 2: really interesting. And this is the idea of what if

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Speaker 2: the evolution of throwing was somehow a necessary precursor for

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Speaker 2: the evolution of probably the most distinctly human trait language,

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Speaker 2: So not just that humans are good at throwing and

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Speaker 2: good at language, but that there is actually a neurobiological

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Speaker 2: link between the two one comes from the other. So

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Speaker 2: to look at this question, I wanted to refer to

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Speaker 2: a paper by William D. Hopkins, Jamie L. Russell, and

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Speaker 2: Jennifer A. Schaeffer published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal

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Speaker 2: Society b Biological Sciences, published in twenty twelve, called the

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Speaker 2: Neural and Cognitive Correlates of Aimed Throwing in Chimpanzees a magnetic, resonance, image,

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Speaker 2: and behavioral study on a unique form of social tool use.

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Speaker 2: So to begin, they cover some of the same ground

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Speaker 2: we did in the previous episode. You know how unusual

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Speaker 2: he when throwing behavior is in a way, and despite

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Speaker 2: all the interesting examples we've discussed in these episodes of

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Speaker 2: animals throwing things for various reasons, whether trained by humans

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Speaker 2: or just doing it as part of their natural instinctual behaviors,

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Speaker 2: the authors here argue that in general, throwing remains unsystematic,

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Speaker 2: in their words, in other animals, And I think this

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Speaker 2: is fair. No other animal practices the kind of generalized,

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Speaker 2: skillful habitual throwing that we do, certainly not without training

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Speaker 2: by humans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as we discussed in the previous episode, it goes

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Speaker 1: way back in human behavior, and it's something that even today,

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Speaker 1: with all our other tools and ways of doing things

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Speaker 1: at a distance, we still engage in throwing. I think

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Speaker 1: in the very first episode we discussed that sort of

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Speaker 1: at least in my case, this strange pull to need

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Speaker 1: to throw a ball with my son when he was younger,

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Speaker 1: even though we're not a baseball or softball family. But

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Speaker 1: it was just kind of the thing that I guess

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Speaker 1: was like nostalgic in the culture, but also very satisfying

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Speaker 1: to do and something that even if you're not very

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Speaker 1: practiced at you can do with some or at least

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Speaker 1: I found that I could do with some degree of precision,

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Speaker 1: despite being very rusty at the whole softball baseball thing.

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Speaker 2: I totally sympathize with you there. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: neither of us are really sports guys. I don't really

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Speaker 2: want rules, I don't really want teams, but I do

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Speaker 2: want ball or frisbee. Frisbee just as good in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean there's also there's a lot more

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Speaker 1: throwing that goes on too, Like how often do we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves across the room from someone We request something

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Speaker 1: and they give it a tok, they throw it to us,

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Speaker 1: and you want to be able to catch it for

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Speaker 1: various reasons. And then that's without even getting into the

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Speaker 1: various sports that even if we don't engage in, we

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Speaker 1: may watch and the throwing of balls is often an

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Speaker 1: essential part, or at least one aspect of a given

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Speaker 1: sport right.

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Speaker 2: But of course, apart from these recreational concerns, you know,

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Speaker 2: throwing has been crucial to the survival of our ancestors.

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Speaker 2: That seems pretty clear. And in the last episode we

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Speaker 2: talked about arguments from evolutionary anthropology that throwing was positively

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Speaker 2: selected for in human ancestors, and the bodies of hominin

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Speaker 2: species like Homo erectus show anatomical changes that seem to

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Speaker 2: favor forceful overhand throwing. I remember those changes. They're changes

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Speaker 2: in the shoulder and the waist and the upper arm,

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Speaker 2: all of which combined to allow for a more substantial

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Speaker 2: wind up, sort of a pulling back of tension of

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Speaker 2: the biomechanical bowstring to be released rapidly during the throw.

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Speaker 2: And we also talked about the argument that these changes

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Speaker 2: appear to coincide with evidence of meat becoming a bigger

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Speaker 2: part of the diet of these hominins, showing that throwing

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Speaker 2: was likely useful for obtaining food, either through power scavenging

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Speaker 2: like driving predators away from a kill in order to

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Speaker 2: take the meat for yourself, or direct hunting, and either

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Speaker 2: way increasing the availability of food energy. Now, one very

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Speaker 2: interesting thing about the adaptation for throwing is that it

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Speaker 2: implies not only changes in the muscles and the skeletal system.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you know, you can see all those changes

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Speaker 2: around the scapula and the shoulder blade, changes in the waist,

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Speaker 2: the arm, and so forth, But it also implies changes

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Speaker 2: in cognition. An animal that can throw objects sourced from

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Speaker 2: the environment is showing a specialized way of thinking, and

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Speaker 2: not just a specialized way of moving. Now what do

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Speaker 2: I mean by this? Well, as one example, the authors

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Speaker 2: reference a specific captive chimpanzee who came up in the

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Speaker 2: last episode. Robie, remember the story of Santino, the chimpanzee

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Speaker 2: who was in a zoo and I believe Sweden was it?

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Speaker 1: I believe?

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Speaker 2: So, yes, Ip Santino, Yeah, poor Santino. The authors right

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Speaker 2: that Santino, who I guess was alive at the time

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Speaker 2: this paper was written. Quote hydes rocks out of sight

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Speaker 2: of the care staff, waiting to reveal and throw them

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Speaker 2: at approaching visitors at the most opportune time. Evidence of

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Speaker 2: planning comes from the observation that Santino searches for the

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Speaker 2: rocks from a moat inside the enclosure prior to the

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Speaker 2: arrival of the care staff and the visitors, and cashes

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Speaker 2: the rocks out of sight, only to pull them out

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Speaker 2: when the visitors arrive. That is a crafty chimp, and

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Speaker 2: that is forethought. Adding to this, the authors throw in

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Speaker 2: their own observations of similar pre planning behavior in chimpanzees

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Speaker 2: in two other research environments, and they argue that the

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Speaker 2: throwing quote, though often agonistic in function and consequence, agonistic

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Speaker 2: meaningless confrontational aggressive behavior, is not part of the ape's

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Speaker 2: display behavior. Indeed, most instances of aimed throwing that we

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Speaker 2: have observed occur without any accompanying display behavior such as

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Speaker 2: pilo erection, hooting, and charging, further suggesting an element of

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Speaker 2: planning on the part of the individual ape. So I

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Speaker 2: think that's interesting too if you understand what they're saying there,

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Speaker 2: that there is a sort of standard display behavior algorithm,

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Speaker 2: like when an ape is doing an agonistic display when

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Speaker 2: trying to be dominant and aggressive and maybe scare you off.

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Speaker 2: It includes all of these sub features like the pilo

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Speaker 2: erection meaning the bristling of body hair, hair stands on end, hooting,

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Speaker 2: charging back and forth, all that stuff. And they say

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Speaker 2: that when the apes throw stuff at people, they do

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Speaker 2: it without all of these other features of a typical

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Speaker 2: instinctual display. Another way that throwing is different from most

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Speaker 2: other forms of tool use and apes. The most commonly

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Speaker 2: observed types of tool use by wild chimpanzees are all

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Speaker 2: things where the tool is used to extract otherwise unreachable food,

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Speaker 2: often like from a hole or enclosure of some kind,

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Speaker 2: and then is eaten immediately. So examples here would be

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Speaker 2: cracking of nuts with stones like nut cracking is an

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Speaker 2: example of ape tool use, but also termite fishing with sticks,

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Speaker 2: ant dipping, and so forth. All of these give rise

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Speaker 2: to an immediate food reward for executing the behavior, meaning

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Speaker 2: that these behaviors are subject to regular operant conditioning rules.

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Speaker 2: You know, if a behavior leads to an immediate food reward,

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Speaker 2: an animal can learn to repeat basically any arbitrary set

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Speaker 2: of actions. So you know, chimpanzee gets delicious termites every

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Speaker 2: time it. Of course, if it dips for them, that's

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Speaker 2: one thing. But maybe if it stands on one foot

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Speaker 2: and gets termites every time, it may learn to stand

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Speaker 2: on one foot to get the meat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we see this reflected and so many experiments

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Speaker 1: involving animals over the years. You know, can you get

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Speaker 1: an animal to manipulate some sort of technological gadget in

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Speaker 1: order to get a food reward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pressing a button or something that would have no

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Speaker 2: relevance in the natural environment. So other tool use behaviors

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Speaker 2: could easily be learned and reinforced through this kind of conditioning.

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Speaker 2: But throwing, as practiced by apes does not lead to

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Speaker 2: an immediate food reward. In fact, it rarely, if ever,

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Speaker 2: leads to a food reward at all the author's right quote.

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Speaker 2: What appears to be the main reward for throwing is

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Speaker 2: the simple ability to control or manipulate the behavior of

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Speaker 2: the targeted individual ape or human, which, though you could

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Speaker 2: consider it a goal, I mean that is much more

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Speaker 2: complicated and ambiguous than a direct food reward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's not like the ape in this scenario

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Speaker 1: is throwing the rock, hitting the human, and then by

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Speaker 1: hitting the human they drop an apple, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, from here, the authors go on to discuss

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Speaker 2: the underappreciated complexity of throwing. We also talked about this

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Speaker 2: at length in the previous episode. But you know, suffice

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Speaker 2: to say, force full, precise overhand throwing is an extremely

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Speaker 2: demanding task, not only for the muscles but for the brain,

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Speaker 2: requiring split second coordination of perceptual judgments all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: You know, how far away is the target, is it

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Speaker 2: moving in what direction? And how fast? What are the

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Speaker 2: physical properties of the projectile and so forth. But then

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Speaker 2: the other thing is the sequential motor control. To throw

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Speaker 2: an object, you have to precisely time a rapid sequence

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Speaker 2: of muscular movements, and other authors have previously suggested that

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Speaker 2: quote the increased selection for neural synchrony of rapid muscular sequencing.

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Speaker 2: Routines associated with actions such as throwing are similar to

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Speaker 2: the motor programming demands of language and speech, and therefore

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Speaker 2: engage similar neural systems, notably Broca's area. In other words,

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Speaker 2: there are similarities between what the brain is doing and

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Speaker 2: what parts of the brain are being used to coordinate

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Speaker 2: a throw and to process language and speech. And one

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Speaker 2: idea that gets wrapped up in this is the role

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Speaker 2: of brain lateralization, segmenting of brain processes to one hemisphere

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Speaker 2: or side of the brain or the other. So in

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Speaker 2: cultures where throwing behavior has been studied, the authors say

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Speaker 2: the majority of people pretty much always prefer to throw

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Speaker 2: with the right hand. Studies in chimpanzees also show a

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Speaker 2: bias toward right handedness for throwing, and these right hand

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Speaker 2: preferences suggest left hemisphere dominance in the brain in these

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Speaker 2: majorities of both populations, because when it comes to controlling

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Speaker 2: the body's movements, of course, you know, the hemispheres are flipped. Generally,

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Speaker 2: the left hemisphere links to the right hand, the right

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Speaker 2: hemisphere to the left, and so forth. Some researchers have

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Speaker 2: pointed this out in the context of the fact that

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Speaker 2: the left hemisphere also contains the brain regions, notably Broca's area,

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Speaker 2: that dominate the production of speech. Broker's area is also

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Speaker 2: known as the motor speech area, and one researcher who

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Speaker 2: has focused on this is the American neurophysiologist William H. Calvin,

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Speaker 2: who was actually, I think maybe still is a professor

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Speaker 2: at the University of Washington at Seattle, who observing that

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Speaker 2: eighty nine percent of people prefer to throw with the

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Speaker 2: right arm, Calvin hypothesized that the left hemispher's capacity for

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Speaker 2: language may have actually evolved from a pre existing adaptation

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Speaker 2: for right handed throwing. He apparently published a book that

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Speaker 2: contained this hypothesis. In nineteen eighty three, it was called

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Speaker 2: The Throwing Madonna.

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Speaker 1: Oh didn't they adapted this into the film a lead

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Speaker 1: of their own right?

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Speaker 2: Was Madonna in that?

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Speaker 1: I believe?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay? Was she the picture in the movie?

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Speaker 1: Ah? Oh, I don't remember, but I mean surely she

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Speaker 1: threw a ball at least once. I mean there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of throwing in baseball.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you throw, no matter what position you are. I

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Speaker 2: guess the picture throws the most.

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Speaker 1: There's no crying in baseball, but there was throwing in baseball.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot that much. I remember for the film.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Madonna was definitely throwing, no matter what position

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Speaker 2: she played. No, but it unfortunately did not become the

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Speaker 2: basis of the movie as far as I know. Instead,

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Speaker 2: it was a place where Calvin laid out an interesting

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Speaker 2: sort of story, a possible series of developments that could

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Speaker 2: have led to the development of language via the stepping

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Speaker 2: stone of capacity for throwing. So the story goes like this,

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Speaker 2: lateralization evolved for one handed throwing with the right hand,

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Speaker 2: specifically so that parents, typically mothers, could cradle an infant

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Speaker 2: on their left side and then they'd be free to

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Speaker 2: throw with the right hand if they needed to. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously things like this are hard to prove

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Speaker 2: for sure, but that is an interesting idea because I

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Speaker 2: started thinking about how I recently became a father, and

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Speaker 2: without thinking about it at all, I pretty much always

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Speaker 2: when I hold my baby, hold her on the left

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Speaker 2: side of my torso, and so if she like falls

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Speaker 2: asleep against me, her head is going to be on

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Speaker 2: the left side of my chest and from my point

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Speaker 2: of view, which is also the side where the heartbeat

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Speaker 2: is closer. I never planned it that way, that that

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Speaker 2: just sort of happened, and I was talking to my

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Speaker 2: wife and she said, yeah, most often she's on the

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Speaker 2: left side there too, So I don't know that that's

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting. I mean, it could be totally unrelated,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would always scoop up on the

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Speaker 1: left side as well. My son is now I think

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Speaker 1: finally too big for me to do that without seriously

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Speaker 1: injuring myself.

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Speaker 2: But yes, and I guess at a certain point you

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Speaker 2: become less desiring of the heartbeat sound that like maybe

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Speaker 2: loses some of the power it has over really young infants.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I guess it varies from child

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Speaker 1: to child, depends on how big they get and at

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Speaker 1: what point they want that distance.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, so it's hard to know for sure if

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Speaker 2: the need to scoop a child and hold them on

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Speaker 2: the left side of the body, close to the heartbeat

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Speaker 2: is the real reason driving brain lateralization. I find it

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Speaker 2: more compelling than some other hypotheses that seemed to be

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Speaker 2: on offer at the time, one that cited I was

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Speaker 2: reading a review of this book by Calvin that cited

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Speaker 2: a previous hypothesis that the right handedness evolved because men

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Speaker 2: in battle I guess prehistoric battle needed to hold a

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Speaker 2: shield above their above their heart on the left side.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I get out of here.

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Speaker 1: This discussion reminds me of a painting, an eighteen eighty

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Speaker 1: eight painting that I hadn't thought of in a bit,

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Speaker 1: I believe what if The title of this piece is

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Speaker 1: Two Mothers by Leon Maxim of Favre. I'm pronouncing that correctly.

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Speaker 1: It's f A I v R. But it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: stunning piece in which we see this vision of a

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Speaker 1: of a prehistoric mother with very modern touches to it.

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Speaker 1: But she's standing here in some sort of a you know,

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Speaker 1: a hide garment, and she has this heavy looking infant

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Speaker 1: in her left arm, and then there's another child sort

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Speaker 1: of hanging on to her left arm. In her right hand,

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Speaker 1: she has uh like some sort of a stone weapon,

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Speaker 1: like a wooden half with a with a stone blade,

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Speaker 1: some sort of like you know, primitive acts or club.

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Speaker 1: And she's staring back into the shadows behind her with

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Speaker 1: there's this kind of like cave environment, and there's clearly

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Speaker 1: an animal lurking there or an animal emerging from the shadows.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is supposed to be the other mother,

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Speaker 1: the mother that is hunting her. And I have no

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Speaker 1: idea of this. This this piece has has any connection

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, But it is interesting that

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Speaker 1: we do see left arm cradling children, right arm brandishing

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Speaker 1: a weapon to protect those children against some threat.

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Speaker 2: It is a kind of beautiful painting. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, her hair is perfect too, like this mom's really

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Speaker 1: got it together, perfect hair, protecting the children, ready to

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Speaker 1: brain a panther with some sort of a stone weapon.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, whatever the cause of the right hand lateralization for

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Speaker 2: sequential motor control in throwing, The hypothesis goes on from

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Speaker 2: here to suggest that sequential motor control regions that made

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Speaker 2: us so good at tossing a stone with one hand

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Speaker 2: were eventually commondeered by selection pressure for communication and shifted

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Speaker 2: to a different kind of sequential motor control, which was

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Speaker 2: language production. Now, when we think of language production, we

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Speaker 2: think of speech, and that could be the case. I

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Speaker 2: think Calvin argued for a transitional state where the original

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Speaker 2: language was more gesture based, like gesturing with the hands maybe,

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Speaker 2: which would have then transitioned into speech production with the mouth. Again,

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Speaker 2: like many things here, that's not something we know for sure,

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Speaker 2: so we're in very speculative territory. But I do find

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Speaker 2: this really interesting. So again, if there's anything to this story,

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Speaker 2: it would go that for some reason, there is an

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Speaker 2: original right hand left brain motor lateralization for the majority

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Speaker 2: of the population for throwing objects. Human ancestors get really

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Speaker 2: good at throwing with that one hand, maybe cradling a

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Speaker 2: baby in the other arm or doing something else. And

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Speaker 2: then you could argue that the lateralization for precise sequential

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Speaker 2: motor activity and the left brain to power throwing eventually

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Speaker 2: provides the neurological scaffolding for the left brain's capacity for

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Speaker 2: language and speech. Now, what was the actual experiment in

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Speaker 2: this study, Well, it was looking at our closest primate

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Speaker 2: relatives to see if they could provide any insight on

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Speaker 2: what might have been going on in the brains of

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Speaker 2: very distant human ancestors. So they were looking at chimpanzees. Now, again,

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Speaker 2: chimpanzees don't throw nearly as well or as often as

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Speaker 2: we do, but some throw sometimes, So what if anything

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Speaker 2: is different in the brains of chimpanzees that reliably throw

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Speaker 2: versus those that don't. Specifically, the authors looked at the

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Speaker 2: ratio of two different types of brain tissue, white matter

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Speaker 2: and gray matter in the areas of chimpanzee brains that

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Speaker 2: would be most similar to the areas of the human

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Speaker 2: brain involved in motor control for throwing and for speech.

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Speaker 2: And this would be quote the homologue to Broca's area.

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Speaker 2: I remember again Broker's areas involved in speech production in humans.

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Speaker 2: And then they also say as well as the motor

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Speaker 2: hand area of the precentral gyrus termed the knob, K

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Speaker 2: and OB. And what they found was that in both

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Speaker 2: of these areas, in the chimpanzee equivalent of Broker's area

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Speaker 2: and in the knob. The ratio of white matter to

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Speaker 2: gray matter was higher in chimpanzees that throw versus those

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Speaker 2: that don't. Also quote, we further found that asymmetries in

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Speaker 2: white matter within both brain regions were larger in the

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Speaker 2: hemisphere contralateral to the chimpanzee's preferred throwing hand. So what

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Speaker 2: they're saying is it's not just that the ratio of

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Speaker 2: white matter was higher in these regions on both sides

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Speaker 2: of the brain. It's that whichever hand the chimpanzee liked

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Speaker 2: to throw with those particular regions had a higher proportion

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Speaker 2: of white matter on the opposite side of the brain. Also,

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Speaker 2: they assessed the chimpanzees in this study with what is

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Speaker 2: called a Primate Cognition Test BATTERY or pct B, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a sort of an SAT for chimpanzees, standard

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Speaker 2: tests on all kinds of mental abilities, you know, tons

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Speaker 2: of things, spatial memory, causality, inference, tool property, recognition, gaze following,

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Speaker 2: and so forth. And they were looking at, well, are

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Speaker 2: there any differences between apes that throw and apes that

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Speaker 2: don't throw? And out of this entire test battery generally

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Speaker 2: not generally, there were no cognitive differences except in one area.

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Speaker 2: There was only one aptitude where there was a significant difference,

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Speaker 2: and it was that researchers found chimpanzees that were more

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Speaker 2: inclined to throw were also better at social communication. So

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Speaker 2: the author's right quote. These results suggest that chimpanzees that

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Speaker 2: have learned to throw have developed greater cortical connectivity that's

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Speaker 2: correlating with the white matter between the primary motor cortex

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Speaker 2: and the Broca's area. Homologue, it is suggested that during

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Speaker 2: hominine evolution, after the split between lines leading to chimpanzees

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Speaker 2: and humans, there was intense selection on increased motor skills

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Speaker 2: associated with throwing, and that this potentially formed the foundation

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Speaker 2: for left hemisphere specialization associated with language and speech found

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Speaker 2: in modern humans. So this is another case where I

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Speaker 2: think this is far from proven. We would need much

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Speaker 2: more robust evidence before you could endorse this specific evolutionary

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Speaker 2: story as likely. But I find this very intriguing and

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Speaker 2: it does seem possible to me that the capacity for

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Speaker 2: throwing gave rise to the capacity for language.

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Speaker 1: So ape throws the bone, the bone spins around the

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Speaker 1: bone becomes a space station, just as Kubrick promised us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't think about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to get back into this idea of

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Speaker 1: early humans, especially throwing stones as weapons and throwing other

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Speaker 1: things as weapons. You know, as we discussed in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, we talked about some of the ideas concerning

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Speaker 1: the development of ranged weapon technology and prehistoric humans. This

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Speaker 1: idea that what first begins as a way of engaging

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Speaker 1: in agonistic communication could transform into just a way of

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Speaker 1: physically sin a message to another species via projectile. But

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Speaker 1: then eventually that begins to get into this way to

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Speaker 1: manipulate their behavior at range, especially in the case of

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Speaker 1: power scavenging, and ultimately it could be used as a

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Speaker 1: way to hunt prey animals. Right, And as we were

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Speaker 1: actually recording that episode, my mind kept turning to these

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Speaker 1: images of some sort of prehistoric warfare scenario in which

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Speaker 1: some you know, entirely too kubricky prehistoric people were employing

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Speaker 1: various weapons and kind of probably also probably a slightly

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Speaker 1: two table top war game manner where you have you know,

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Speaker 1: units of bone wielding beaters moving forward to engage in

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Speaker 1: some melee attacks, and then maybe you have some units

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Speaker 1: of rock throwers behind them, and you know this this

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Speaker 1: felt kind of silly in my head, maybe even a

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Speaker 1: little Gary Larson esque in my head, a little farside.

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Speaker 1: But then I started looking into it more because, of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, rock throwers were an important part of our history,

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Speaker 1: and when you start looking at into the history of

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Speaker 1: not only range weaponry, but hand range weaponry, it gets

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Speaker 1: pretty fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean, I think one of the main

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Speaker 2: things that striking is rediscovering how potent to force simple

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Speaker 2: thrown objects are, even in an era where powered projectile

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Speaker 2: technology like bows or crossbows or even guns exist.

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Speaker 1: When you think of somebody's throwing rocks, there at least

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Speaker 1: can be this sort of feeling that it's like a

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Speaker 1: juvenile sort of thing, that it's primitive, that it's a nuisance.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I think most of us

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Speaker 1: realize that it's also quite dangerous. Nobody wants to be

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Speaker 1: hit in the head with a thrown rock. A well

428
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Speaker 1: aimed thrown rock can of course be deadly true, and

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Speaker 1: on top of that, a volley of thrown rocks from

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Speaker 1: multiple assailants even more dangerous. And of course we see

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Speaker 1: this reflected in the use of stoning as a form

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Speaker 1: of execution from ancient times through modern times. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to dwell so much on that because that's

434
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: more depressing subject matter. But I wanted to focus more

435
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: on hand thrown stones and weapons in a hunting and

436
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: warfare context. Okay, So I think for many of us,

437
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: and this was me until just the other day, we

438
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: tend to think of ranged weapons as this steady ascent

439
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: out of the Stone Age. So sure we threw stones

440
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: at things then, and we greatly increased our ability to

441
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: strategically employ those thrown stones, But then we got why,

442
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: and then of coach, we probably got wiser about how

443
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: we selected stones, granted, But then eventually we're gonna level up, right,

444
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 1: You're gonna upgrade to using something like a sling, a spear,

445
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: a spear thrower, a bow and arrow across bow, et cetera,

446
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: all the way up through the modern era. And I

447
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: think it's easy to think of this as a linear progression,

448
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: or like a video game skill tree, a situation where

449
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: you could you're yelling at the screen, Hey, don't equip

450
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: the throwing rock, you fool. You have a spear, Now

451
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: equip the spear.

452
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, video game logic pervades our thoughts in every way.

453
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but of course this is not exactly how things

454
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: pan out for a number of reasons. Speaking broadly in

455
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: terms of just weaponry in general, materials are one factor,

456
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: and we've discussed that on the show before, but another

457
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: huge factor to consider is that humans are such great

458
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: natural throwers, as we've been discussing, and it's such a

459
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: big part of the weapon history, that there just may

460
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: not be a good reason to completely abandon the hand

461
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: thrown stone, right.

462
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you can imagine cases where people are having

463
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: great success with just hand thrown stones, and why fix

464
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: what's not broken?

465
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then if something also becomes a part of culture,

466
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: becomes a part of a martial art and a weapon tradition,

467
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: then there's this added incentive to keep it around. So

468
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: I started looking into some examples from Polynesian weaponry and

469
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: martial arts. The first thing I ran across was an

470
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: interesting mention in the Coming of the Mallori Weapons, a

471
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine text by New Zealand anthropologists and doctor

472
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: Tae Rangi Heroa who lived eighteen seventy seven through nineteen

473
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: fifty one, in discussing the prevalence for spears and clubs

474
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: in Polynesian history. He also discusses the swing as a

475
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: primary range weapon along with the spear, and then he

476
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: shares the following quote. Stones were also thrown by hand,

477
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: and early European voyagers have reported this form of attack

478
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: more than the use of the sling. The bow and arrow,

479
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: while present in some groups, was used for sport but

480
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: not as a weapon of war. In Samoa it was

481
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: used to shoot pigeons, in Hawaii to shoot rats, and

482
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: in the Society Islands it was a chiefly sport in

483
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: which archers clad in special costume shot for distance from

484
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: raised stone platforms. Now, obviously this is an older source here,

485
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: but instantly reading this he realized, well, this is true.

486
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: It raises interesting possibilities about the dependability of thrown stones

487
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: as weaponry even as other technologies come online.

488
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: Right, so you could have the technology of a bow

489
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: but still prefer hand thrown stones for some utilities.

490
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the advantages of the bow, of course, are

491
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: well documented. You know, none of this that we're getting

492
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: into is going to be a statement that along the

493
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 1: lines of well, actually a throne rock is better than

494
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: a high power bow or anything like that. But it

495
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: is true that the use of the bow was widespread,

496
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: not only in ancient armies, but among hunter gatherers. But

497
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: as Thomas Hoolett points out in a section on ranged

498
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: weaponry in the book Seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World,

499
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: not all hunter gatherers use the bow and arrow. He

500
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: mentions Australian Aborigines as an example of a people who

501
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: did not, despite some of them surely being aware of

502
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: the technology via contact with the Tarres Strait Islanders who

503
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: used bows. They were still people that retain the use

504
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: of ranged weaponry that depended on hand thrown objects, and

505
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: will come back to the most famous classification of hand

506
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: thrown objects that they used in a bit. But where

507
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: I really got fascinated with all of this was a

508
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: paper from twenty eleven. This was published in the Journal

509
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: of the Polynesian Society by Barbara Isaac and Grenaria Isaac

510
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: titled Unexpected Trajectories, a History of New Wayan Throwing Stones.

511
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: The authors here describe the warstones of New Way. New

512
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: Way is an island that's fifteen hundred miles or twenty

513
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: four hundred kilometers northeast of New Zealand, and when Captain

514
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: James Cook visited the island in seventeen seventy four. He

515
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: dubbed it the Savage Island, which may have had something

516
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: to do with their consumption of the native banana species,

517
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: which to understand had like a red peal and an

518
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: orangeish interior, and if in the teeth or rubbed on

519
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: the body, might look like blood. This also clearly reflects

520
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: Cook's general attitude towards indigenous peoples as well. But he

521
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: also certainly seemed to have encountered some difficulty in landing

522
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: on New Way. It's apparently difficult to land on the

523
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: island anyway due to the surrounding coral reefs, but the

524
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: people of New Way were also hostile to his landing

525
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: attempts and his naturalists. The naturalist on this particular voyage,

526
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: Andrews Sparman, was injured by a thrown stone. I believe

527
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: it got him in the arm. The New Way here

528
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: they were not just picking up random stones and throwing

529
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: them either. This is where it gets really fascinating. They

530
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: had a highly refined approach to the use of hand

531
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: thrown ranged stone weaponry. According to Isaac and Isaac, the

532
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: warriors were reported at the time to each have spears

533
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: on their person, to have a swing and also have

534
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: a pouch of stones for throwing. But throwing stones and

535
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: sling launch stones were not uncommon among other people who

536
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: were encountered on islands from this vast region, so comparatively,

537
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: there wasn't much Western commentary on these throwing stones. But

538
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: the throwing stones of New Way, according to Isaac and Isaac,

539
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: were quite singular, and much of it would come out

540
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: later through indigenous recollections, the work of later anthropologists and missionaries,

541
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: as well as later analysis of stones that were subsequently

542
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: taken off the island after Western contact.

543
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: So these war.

544
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: Stones, the crazy thing about them is that, again these

545
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: are not just stones that were picked up or even

546
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: stones that were sort of painstakingly collected and the way

547
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: that one might scour the rocks by a stream to

548
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: find the best rocks for skipping. Now, these were crafted items,

549
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: made of I think predominantly limestone crafted items.

550
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: So you might think of this as more like an

551
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: arrow or an axe head or something, but it is

552
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: a stone for throwing with the hand right right.

553
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: The people here would harvest the stone, apparently from stalactites

554
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: and stalagmites in naturally occurring caves on the island and

555
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: then wear them down into the desired shape by working

556
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: them over with other pieces of stone or with pieces

557
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: of coral. So we're talking considerable manufacturing effort going into these. Again,

558
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: they're not just picked up off the ground. They're not

559
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: even scavenge from the ground. They are manufactured from materials

560
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: that are harvested. They tended to weigh around three to

561
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: four pounds each and they were largely spherical in shape.

562
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: They were often compared to small cannon balls by Western commentators,

563
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: but the difference is that they were elongated a little

564
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: bit on the two opposing ends. You can look up

565
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: pictures of these online and to me, if I was

566
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: to compare them to a naturally occurring object, I would

567
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: say they kind of look like like well crafted stone,

568
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: lemons or limes.

569
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, lemon, yeah.

570
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah they have that. Or I guess you

571
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: could almost say they don't really look like a football,

572
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: but they have I guess, a slightly football esque shape,

573
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: or they remind me of certain like malformed or not malformed,

574
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: but sort of slightly unrealistic toy footballs you might have

575
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: seen if you were a child, you know, back in

576
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: the eighties or something.

577
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: Sorry, I was just briefly amused by the concept of

578
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 2: a toy football.

579
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: Well, well, you have the functional football. It's for serious business,

580
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: for the sport of American football. And then you have

581
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: something that's that's less serious.

582
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 2: This is a football, this is not for playing with.

583
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: So you did have Western observers, though, that were figuring

584
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: a lot of this out, that these warstones were indeed

585
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: crafted items, that they were made out of limestone, that

586
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: people would harvest the stone from against stalactites and stalagmites,

587
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: And there's some really interesting takes on this that are

588
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: reported in this paper. In eighteen sixty eight, Missionary Thomas

589
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: Powell wrote that quote this fact is remarkable as an

590
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: indication of thought and design natural to this people. For

591
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: it is not probable that the first inhabitants brought the

592
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: ideas with them. But they found this limestone in the caves,

593
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: saw the use to which it might be put, and

594
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: designed the shape. It is therefore original on their part,

595
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: and in this particular they anticipated the European science of

596
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: the recent century. Now they don't note what he was

597
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: referring to here on the European science thing. I'm thinking

598
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: maybe airships. I'm not sure. They kind of have an

599
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: airship look to him, I guess. Now. On the limestone front,

600
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: nineteenth and twentieth century anthropologists described other warstones that were

601
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 1: sometimes used that might have been made of other materials

602
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: of basalt of coral, for example. You definitely have examples.

603
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: Of like a black.

604
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: Stone of black war stone, but limestone seems to be

605
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: the primary material. They were highly prized and were used

606
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: exclusively for conflict, and there was apparently a lot of

607
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: conflict on the on the island. You know, this is

608
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: before there were any Westerners even, and part of it

609
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: had to do with you know, droughts would occur and

610
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: there was a lot of skirmishing for available resources. But

611
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: they didn't hunt with them apparently, So birds were hunted

612
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: with what are referred to as bird bows in this paper,

613
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: and fish were hunted with nets. So these were exclusively

614
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: for dealing with human threats or perceived human threats. Warriors

615
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: would carry them in bags or on belts, and if

616
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: they ran out of ammo, it's mentioned that they would

617
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: naturally make use of stones from the ground as well,

618
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: so they weren't above you know, reaching down and grabbing

619
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: whatever was available and throwing that after your special stones

620
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: were extinguished, and then of course after a skirmish or battle,

621
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: you would hopefully be able to go back and pick

622
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: up your AMMO retrieve them. Because other sources mentioned that

623
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: they often they had names, they had histories, histories of violence,

624
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: and so these particular stones would kind of resonate with

625
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: importance to the individual who wielded it.

626
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that if the stones are you know,

627
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: they're they're manufactured with care, and they're used specifically for

628
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: human conflict instead of hunting. I mean, it makes me

629
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: think about them them having i don't know, some kind

630
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: of special like communicative or signaling power in addition to

631
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: their ability to hit and hurt someone.

632
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Here's another great quote. This

633
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: one is if it's in the paper as well, from

634
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: anthropologists Edwin Loewe, who wrote the following about the importance

635
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: of the stones. The individuals quote the fighting stones all

636
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: had special names, and they were put in a kafa

637
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: or girdle, which was plated like a matt. The kafa

638
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 1: was about six to seven inches wide and was customarily

639
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: four fathoms in length. The third night before the war arrived,

640
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: they wound the kafa around their stomachs and slept in

641
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: this manner during the night, neither eating or drinking. So

642
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 1: in this paper, the authors here they point out that

643
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: these new weeg In stones, these war stones, there were

644
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: songs about them, and part of their importance also may

645
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: have had to do with the fact that they were

646
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: products of the caves, which were sacred sites with seems

647
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: like connections to the afterlife, And of course this matches

648
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: up with the way caves were viewed by peoples and

649
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: other parts of the world as well. The stones were

650
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: used in ambush attacks, in skirmishes, but also sometimes in

651
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: fights to the death would occur, but it seems like

652
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: a lot of these battles, based on some of the commentaries,

653
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: may not have been typically that lethal. So yeah, this

654
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: does line up with this idea of communication. It's not

655
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: necessarily about going out and absolutely murdering the competition, but

656
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: driving them away from resources that you're looking to control.

657
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: And in the paper, the authors also mostly speculate on

658
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: accuracy here, and part of this was based on accounts

659
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: of other throwing techniques by other advanced stone or club

660
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: throwing groups, but they speculate that high accuracy was likely

661
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: within twenty yards or eighteen meters roughly, but greater distance

662
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: accuracy was certainly possible. And I think this makes sense

663
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: when you consider the likely scenarios in which these stones

664
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: are being used. So yeah, any kind of sort of

665
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: tabletop gaming scenario that you have in your mind should

666
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: probably set aside. It sounds like most of these the

667
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: the encounters these battles would have involved like one individual

668
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: against one another individual or one small group against another.

669
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: It seems like skirmishes and small ambushes were sort of

670
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: the typical encounter context for their usage. So anyway, it's

671
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: a fascinating paper. It's available on jay Store if anyone

672
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: wants to read more. They really get in depth about

673
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: the history of it and various mostly Western commentators who

674
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: are looking at it, and also how the use of

675
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: the stones was disappeared and then the stones went out

676
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: throughout the world and then were to certain degrees brought

677
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: back or studied. Now, this was certainly the most to

678
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: me anyway remarkable account of stone throwing I came across,

679
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: but not the only account of specialized throwing stones. I

680
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: ran across the work of Guy Steibel talking about archaeology

681
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: finds in Jerusalem and the accumulated weapons and AMMO that

682
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: they were finding. This was a paper that came out

683
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: on twenty thirteen.

684
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: This is from a.

685
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: Chapter titled Military Equipment in a larger collection of papers

686
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: titled Jerusalem Excavations in the Tiropean Valley. And yeah, there's

687
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion of things like the things you

688
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: would expect to find, sling stones and so forth, other

689
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 1: types of projectiles. But then there's an interesting part where

690
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: he mentions he starts talking about what may have been

691
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: stones that were expressly collected and even crafted for throwing.

692
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: Quote three flint balls have a single flat face, unlike

693
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: weights or grinding stones that frequently exhibit multiple flat surfaces.

694
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: They were ideal for heaping on top of battlements, as

695
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: modern experiments have demonstrated. In light of parallels from both

696
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: Palestine and the Roman West, it appears that the use

697
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: of hand thrown stones was much more prevalent than had

698
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: been previously appreciated in modern scholarship.

699
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. The single flat face. So that would

700
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: be a stone that was modified or selected to have

701
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: a single flat face in order to make it easier

702
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: to stack in a pile, and so it wouldn't roll away.

703
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for use on battlements, which I guess also

704
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: the other side of that is, not only do you

705
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: not want your AMMO to roll away, you don't want

706
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: it to roll off the battlements with you know, fatal

707
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: gravity of sense potentially if you're not meaning to drop it. Yeah,

708
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: I've never thought about this before. I mean, I've certainly

709
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: researched siege scenarios before, where it's very obvious that if

710
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: you have the advantage of battlements, there's a great deal

711
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: you can do without the need for the power of

712
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: a bow. You can just drop things on people underneath.

713
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: And it was dropping things on your besiegers was a

714
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: favorite tactic. Be that you could drop rock, you could

715
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: drop various burning things, oils, et cetera, all manner of things,

716
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: and again with lethal intensity. But this idea of not

717
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: just having stones, but stones that had been to some

718
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: degree altered or manufactured or crafted in order to just

719
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: stack up there so they're ready to go, but they're

720
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: also not rolling out of sight and posing a danger

721
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: to anyone who might just say, be working beneath. Now,

722
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: there are also several interesting cases, probably many many more

723
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: on top of what I'm going to highlight here of

724
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: hand thrown clubs and throwing sticks. So you know, we've

725
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: been talking about throwing rocks, but of course throwing sticks

726
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: is just sort of the other side of the equation here,

727
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: and you find example of these traditions just throughout the

728
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: world on various continents. The throwing stick was used as

729
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: a hunting tool by prehistoric peoples, and we have examples

730
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: of these going back at least some three hundred thousand years.

731
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: One of the problems that this is something that's pointed

732
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: out in a paper I was looking at by Conrad

733
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: at All in nature, ecology and evolution, is that a

734
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: throwing stick is generally a wooden stick, and therefore it's

735
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: not always going to survive to become an artifact that

736
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: can be studied and interpreted, you know, hundreds of thousands

737
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: of years later. But the practice of hunting with thrown

738
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: sticks certainly survived. The ancient Egyptians retained a practice of

739
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: hunting with throwing sticks, and we see this commemorated both

740
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: in their hieroglyphics but also in art. I included an

741
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: image for you to look at here, Joe, where you

742
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: see an individual clearly out by the water side. There

743
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: are all these birds around and in one hand the

744
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: individual was holding up this throwing stick.

745
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: And this is sort of an an induated club of

746
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: sorts that can be thrown.

747
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean we also see the use

748
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: of this in other cultures as well. The hope He

749
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: tribes people of North America also used a type of

750
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: hunting sticks, sometimes referred to as a rabbit stick name

751
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: for the prey. You would go after this with this tool,

752
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: with this weapon. Throwing clubs throwing sticks were also used

753
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: in warfare scenarios and also in war related ceremonies and symbolism.

754
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: Fiji Islanders used beautiful and ceremonial throwing war clubs. These

755
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: were called ulahs, and you can look up examples of these.

756
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: Some key African traditions of throwing clubs are notable as well,

757
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: including the East African rungu as well as the knob

758
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: carry of southern and Eastern Africa. And these were used

759
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: for hunting in war, but also became highly symbolic social

760
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 1: signifiers as well. Yeah, but I feel like the idea

761
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: that the thrown blunt weapon the throwing club is something

762
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: that is often I guess glossed over in at least

763
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: in the Western mindset, you know, just again coming back

764
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: as always to things like Dungeons and Dragons, where we

765
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: wrap all these fantasy scenarios around the use of ranged

766
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: in melee weaponry. It's easy to dismiss the idea that, yeah,

767
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: that the club also is a potential range weapon, though

768
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: of course, I think Dungeons and Dragons does at least

769
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: have a boomerang in it, And the boomerang is probably

770
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: the most famous, and I guess the most exceptional of

771
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: the throne clubs that humans have developed over the ages.

772
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: The boomerang is exceptional because it's still essentially a throne

773
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: club that kills or injures via blunt force, but it

774
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 1: is also crafted to spin in just the right way

775
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: and by virtue of its shape, to generate an aerofoil,

776
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: which then increases the distance that it can be thrown.

777
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 1: So it's not only you know, throne but it also

778
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: begins to take on flight in a fascinating manner.

779
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember being fascinated by the boomerang as far

780
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: back as when I was a little kid.

781
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And according to Thomas Hewlett, we run into the

782
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: wooden artifact problem again with boomerangs, but convincing boomerangs have

783
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: been discovered as old as ten thousand years, so they've

784
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: been around for quite a while. There are returning boomerangs

785
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: and their non returning boomerangs. Non returning boomerangs were primarily weapons,

786
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: while returning boomerangs were I think more in the recreational

787
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 1: and symbolic and mythological sphere of things, but could also

788
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: be used apparently in hunting scenarios as some sort of

789
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: decoy for I think, birds of prey, but also as

790
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: a means of frightening and tended bird prey, So they

791
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: weren't without functional uses. And there are a lot of

792
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: things similar to these boomerangs that we find in other

793
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: cultures as well, like the Tamil people had a kind

794
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: of non returning boomerang of their own called a valari,

795
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: and you can look up various images of this as well.

796
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: Has a slight boomerang shape, kind of a tusk like shape.

797
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 1: Now going back to Thomas Coulett here, he points out

798
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: that broadly speaking, the evolution of range weaponry was initially

799
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: an evolution that had a lot to do with range.

800
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: Thrown weapons greatly increase the range at which human beings

801
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: may inflict harm. But then additional throwing technologies extend that range,

802
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: and this of course increases what we can do with

803
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: them from a hunting standpoint, but also provides advantages over

804
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: other human adversaries, at least under the right conditions. But

805
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: I think these examples show that it's not just a

806
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: matter of abandoning the use of hand thrown projectiles. We

807
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: retain the physical abilities as well as the basic skill sets,

808
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: and we see this reflected in our sports as well

809
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: as our weapon cultures. Hand thrown weapon traditions clearly survived

810
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: the advent of other range weapon technologies and in many

811
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: cases retained important cultural values as well. And there's one

812
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: final wrinkle here too that I almost completely blanked on.

813
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: I almost didn't have anything about this in the notes,

814
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: but then I of course remembered well. As we enter

815
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: into the age of explosives, hand thrown weaponry remains important

816
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: in the form of hand grenades. The more common variety

817
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: of grenade is of course made to be thrown by hand,

818
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: much like a throwing stone, more or less fits in

819
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: the human palm, though we also have the example of

820
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: the German stick hand grenade that was used in the

821
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: first and Second World Wars, and I think adopted by

822
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: some other groups as well during this period. But as

823
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: the name implies, this design features a long handle, and

824
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: these were thrown end over end, much like a hunting

825
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: stick or a thrown club. Now, in both cases, obviously,

826
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: given that this is an item that will explode, you

827
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to be as precise. It's not a

828
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 1: situation where you have to hit somebody in the head

829
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: with it or in the neck with it every time

830
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: for the weapon to be successful. Though I guess there

831
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: would be situations where you were trying to throw said

832
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: grenade into say a window or some sort of an

833
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 1: opening and a tank, etc.

834
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: Well, or like in other cases we've looked at to

835
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: compel behavior to drive people away from a particular location.

836
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking about Monty Python many months back,

837
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: and I of course thought of the Holy Hand Grenade

838
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: of Antioch, the magical weapon that is used against the

839
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: Killer Rabbit. And I remember looking around a little bit

840
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: just to see was there anything in use during the

841
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: general historic range that we're talking about here that would

842
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: have been like a grenade, And as I recall, there wasn't, really,

843
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: so I guess there is maybe a potential lag. There's

844
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: this kind of gap between the high age of stone

845
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: throwing and stick throwing as a viable weapon, and then

846
00:50:54,520 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: the emergence of explosives, which kind of reignites the need

847
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: to be able to throw precisely or at least with

848
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: some degree of precision. You don't want to throw a

849
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: hand grenade imprecisely, but we certainly see with hand grenades

850
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: that like the need for individuals to throw these things

851
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: becomes all the more important. I mean, you look at

852
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: images of say, modern soldiers training to throw hand grenades,

853
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: and there's a definite form to how you do it,

854
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, like there's definite training in place, so precise

855
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: throwing of handheld objects remains a seemingly important part of

856
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: the modern military scenario.

857
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't plan it like this, but it's

858
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 2: interesting how this series began as us wanting to look

859
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 2: at examples of non human animals throwing, and ultimately the

860
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: main thing that I'm taking away from it is the

861
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: special role of throwing in the development of human culture,

862
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: in human cognition.

863
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I surprised by it as well, because, yeah,

864
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: we started off with the octopus and now here we

865
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: are talking about soldiers with grenades. We have to keep

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00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: the grenades away from the octopuses. By the way, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I should also point out I didn't even get into

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00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: the use of sharpened throwing weapons, but obviously that's a

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00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: huge part of weapon culture throughout history as well. I

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00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess it felt like one step manufacturing

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00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: or materially away from just throwing a stick or throwing

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00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: a rock, So I didn't get into that, But obviously

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00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot one could additionally discuss involving hand thrown axes,

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00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: hand thrown darts and knives and so forth. So I

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00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: guess different aerodynamic properties come into play with at least

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00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: some of those weapon designs. All right, we're gonna go

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00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: ahead and end it there, but we'd love to hear

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00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: from everyone out there if you have thoughts, feedback, experience

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00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: on anything we've discussed here in this episode or the

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00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: previous episodes regarding animals throwing things, humans throwing things, the

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00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: role that being able to throw something may have in

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00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: the development of language, and also just the various weapons

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00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: cultures martial arts that have involved hand thrown objects. If

884
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: you have anything to add about any of that, please

885
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: write in we would love to hear from you. Just

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00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a

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00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: science podcast with core episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: On Mondays we do a listener mail and that's where

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00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: you can write in and we'll discuss some of the

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00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: mail that comes in. On Wednesdays we do a short

891
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: form artifact or monster fact episode, and then on Fridays

892
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Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about

893
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: a strange film on Weird House Cinema.

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00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

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00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

896
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest topic for

897
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Speaker 2: the future, to share something interesting, or just to say hello,

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00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:08,240
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00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,279
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