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Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,

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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.

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Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,

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Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting

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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Mora Murray Saturday's seven

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Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the new

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Speaker 1: network for crime Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius

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Speaker 1: x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. In an ancient

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Speaker 1: Italian phil tone, the life of a young foreign exchange

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Speaker 1: student ends and fighters, and the life of another is

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Speaker 1: forever linked to the crime. Amanda Knox would be convicted.

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Speaker 1: I was afraid of Blaine Stane. She contemplated suicide. If

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Speaker 1: I'm in a dye in prison, no matter what, do

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Speaker 1: I want that to be the one thing that I

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Speaker 1: have that's on my terms. Samanda is free. Amanda's name

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Speaker 1: is finally keyed or is it the dud student is

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Speaker 1: on trial again. I did not believe that I would

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Speaker 1: be going to say, did you kill Meredith? Now? I

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Speaker 1: did not kill Meredith. I wish that question didn't have

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Speaker 1: to be asked. A twenty one year old British student,

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Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher found brutally murdered in her apartment. What went wrong?

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Speaker 1: Still so many unsettling questions. It's all about Amanda Knox,

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Speaker 1: the U S student who was studying abroad who was

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Speaker 1: roped into a murder charge. Many people still believing that

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox took part in some way in the murder

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Speaker 1: of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. She says, no way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's grace, this is crying stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. What is the truth? Joining me and Bremner,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Seattle that has had many,

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Speaker 1: many dealings with Amanda Knox's family, Also with me from

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Speaker 1: k I n G t V investigative reporter Linda Byron

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Speaker 1: who interviewed Amanda Knox. Also from l A. Dr Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshall's psycho analyst, and of course Alan Duke, the Duke

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Speaker 1: joining me out of l A. It is the case

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Speaker 1: that never really seemed to be put to rest. Why

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Speaker 1: Why does so many people still believe Amanda Knox brutally

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Speaker 1: murdered her young roommate, Meredith Kircher, Let's go through the

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Speaker 1: facts as we know them about the scene of the

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Speaker 1: crime and the timeline of when Meredith was murdered. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't even know Meredith Kircher's name, but

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Speaker 1: they do know Amanda Knox his name. Let's start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning. Linda Byron k I n G TV. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about the day, the evening that Meredith Kircher was Well,

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Speaker 1: we know that Meredith Kircher had gone to a Halloween party. Um,

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Speaker 1: we know that Amanda and Rafaeli said that they were

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Speaker 1: in their apartment that night, uh, and that they were

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Speaker 1: hanging out. She was supposed to work and got a

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Speaker 1: text that she didn't need to work, so they decided

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Speaker 1: they were going to spend the evening. Hold On, hold on,

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the U S student Amanda Knox and

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend Rafael Salcito. They were there in the apartment

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Speaker 1: that Amanda shared with Meredith. Is that right? So they

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Speaker 1: were in his apartment. I mean, this is the hardest apartment. Correct.

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Speaker 1: I thought you said her apartment. Okay. Amanda and RAFAELI

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Speaker 1: said that they spent the evening in his apartment and

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Speaker 1: that they didn't really go out. They watched a movie

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Speaker 1: on the computer. In, they made dinner. She was supposed

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Speaker 1: to work and she did not have to go in.

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Speaker 1: She got a text from her boss. Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, I thought she told cops they smoked

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Speaker 1: wade and she had sex. Yes, she did, so let

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Speaker 1: me back up. So Amanda was supposed to go to

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Speaker 1: work at the bar that she worked at UM with

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Speaker 1: Patrick Lamuba. She got a text saying it's slow. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to come in. She texted back, okay, see

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Speaker 1: you later. She was excited. She told Rafaeli Solecha to

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend, I don't have to go to work, they said,

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Speaker 1: except the evening in his apartment UM, they smoked some marijuana,

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Speaker 1: they had sex, they had dinner, they watched a movie,

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Speaker 1: and the next day she goes back to her apartment

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Speaker 1: that she shared with the British roommates and an Italian woman.

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Speaker 1: You say, the British woman, you're talking about Meredith Kircher,

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Speaker 1: the twenty one year old. That's right, that's right, yes,

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Speaker 1: so Meredith Kircher. Meredith Kircher had gone to a Halloween party,

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Speaker 1: had come home and was alone. Amanda Knox came in

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Speaker 1: after spending the evening with her boyfriend, and she took

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Speaker 1: a shower. She noticed some blood in the bathroom. She

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Speaker 1: did not, um, immediately think that something terrible was wrong,

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Speaker 1: she said. She told me that she saw this blood,

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Speaker 1: but it was a little bit. She thought someone might

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Speaker 1: have cut themselves. Um. And she went back to Raffaelis

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Speaker 1: and they had a discussion, and she told him she

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Speaker 1: thought things were strange. UM. Okay, wait a minute. So

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Speaker 1: she sees blood and didn't she try Merediths room and

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Speaker 1: the door was locked from the inside. That happened after

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Speaker 1: she came back with Raffaeli Selecito, she left, they came back,

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Speaker 1: they tried the door, the door was locked. I think

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Speaker 1: that's when they really truly became suspicious. Now I'm basing this,

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Speaker 1: of course, on all of what I heard in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom and the court transcripts. And so she sees blood

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Speaker 1: and the door to meredith room is locked on the inside,

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Speaker 1: and I believe they called Meredith, or she calls Meredith

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Speaker 1: and she won't answer her cell phone, which is highly unusual. Yes,

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Speaker 1: because Mary, So we're talking about blood in the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: How much blood was in the bathroom? Not a large amount, um,

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Speaker 1: small amount in the sink. There was a small on

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Speaker 1: the on the rug and so yes, most people would say, wow,

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Speaker 1: that's really suspicious. Now, she hadn't tried meredith story yet.

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Speaker 1: She left, went back to Rafaelis. They came back, they

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Speaker 1: tried the door, and about that time, the postal police

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Speaker 1: were showing up. And the postal police showed up because

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Speaker 1: Meredith's cell phones had been found and they're the ones

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Speaker 1: who investigate. Her phones had been tossed aside um in

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Speaker 1: kind of a wooded area not far from the apartment.

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Speaker 1: That's when they come in, stick the door down, and

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Speaker 1: Meredith Mereth is under a dube cover and it's a

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Speaker 1: bloody mess in the room and it's obvious that, you know,

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Speaker 1: a terrible murder has occurred. Wow, were there any other

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Speaker 1: signs outside of Meredith's room beside uh bare amount of

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Speaker 1: blood in the bathroom that Amanda Knox saw. Was there

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Speaker 1: anything else askew or a miss? The front door was

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Speaker 1: askew when Amanda came home, which should have raised suspicion,

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Speaker 1: but that doors sometimes apparently didn't shut well. That door

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Speaker 1: was askew, and there was also some feces in the

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Speaker 1: toilet and that seemed odd because the girls were pretty

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Speaker 1: good about making sure that they would flush the toilet.

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Speaker 1: So later put together, all of those things certainly look suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Um once that door was kicked in, it was obvious

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Speaker 1: that Meredith had been murdered. Her foot was sticking out

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Speaker 1: from under the dubet, and the police investigation, of course

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Speaker 1: begins at that point and Bremner joining me, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Seattle and lawyer for friends of Amanda Knox,

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Speaker 1: and thank you so much for being with us, along

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Speaker 1: with Linda and Dr Bethany Marshall. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: one of the many reasons that people to this day

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Speaker 1: believe Amanda Knox was somehow involved in meredith murder. Uh

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Speaker 1: Number one. She and the boyfriend, Rafaela Selcito couldn't seem

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Speaker 1: to get their stories straight at the beginning. Their stories

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Speaker 1: differed over and over and over. The coming home to

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Speaker 1: find the blood, the cell phone, not answering the door lock,

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Speaker 1: the front door askew, and not calling police. That disturbed people.

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Speaker 1: The day after her roommate is raped and brutally brutally

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Speaker 1: stab dead, she is seen on close circuit TV, you know,

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Speaker 1: video surveillance in the store I think it was called bubbles,

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Speaker 1: laughing and snuggling and kissing, Solcto buying lingeriate by underwear.

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Speaker 1: And at the police station she was laughing and joking,

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Speaker 1: I believe with the boyfriend at the police station. This

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Speaker 1: is after her roommate has been murdered. And then of course,

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Speaker 1: and there's the it has been repeated over and over

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Speaker 1: where she tells police that she recalls hearing Meredith screaming

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Speaker 1: for her life, but she just put her hands over

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Speaker 1: her ears. You know, it brings back Amber Emner and

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Speaker 1: you and I lived through this together. When O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson said he had a dream that he killed Nicole.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've never dreamed that I killed anybody yet anyway, um,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not saying it couldn't happen. But I've never

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Speaker 1: dreamed that. I never thought of sat amound and thought

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Speaker 1: of the perfect way to die, unless I'm writing a

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Speaker 1: murder mystery. But she definitely said that she dreamed, or

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Speaker 1: she recalls she couldn't make sure if she was in

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Speaker 1: a feuge state or she was having a dream that

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Speaker 1: she recalls hearing Meredith screaming for her life in the

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Speaker 1: next room, and she just put her hands over her ears. See,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have a problem with that. Anne.

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Speaker 1: That was, of course an interrogation in a different language.

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Speaker 1: She didn't speak Italian back down, although she testified Italian

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Speaker 1: far far later, white what white, white white? She lived

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Speaker 1: in Italy and she did speak Italian, and she texted

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Speaker 1: an Italian. She worked in an Italian bar well, so

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Speaker 1: she did speak to go from Rooti mentary Italian to

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Speaker 1: you know, basically talking about an alleged homicide of her

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Speaker 1: at the primary suspect. But and you know how much

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Speaker 1: I respect to you is you know, you're a very

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Speaker 1: renowned legal expert. But ann plase please, But I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying I'm jumping on the bandwagon. But you can't live

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Speaker 1: in Italy with an Italian boyfriend and worked in a

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Speaker 1: bar and you've been living there for a period of

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Speaker 1: time and say you don't know Italian. The one time

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Speaker 1: you tell police, yeah I heard my roommate screaming for

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Speaker 1: her life and I put my hands over my ears.

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Speaker 1: That's the one time you don't know what you're saying, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: She knew her boyfriend for a week. I just spent

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Speaker 1: time with him at a confidence in Europe. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is basically she was she was she a week,

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Speaker 1: but she she had said they said, imagine, imagine if

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Speaker 1: you were there, what would you have done? Then she says,

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Speaker 1: if I was like a theoretical I would have covered

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Speaker 1: my ears with screams. The second part of it is

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Speaker 1: she was interrogated for a long period of time. In fact,

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Speaker 1: part of it was thrown out because she didn't have

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Speaker 1: a lawyer and she didn't have a certified interpreter, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then also she said struck her during the interrogation,

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Speaker 1: and then she's maintained that all along. So that and

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Speaker 1: all the other issues raised about making faces, you know,

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Speaker 1: are acting quirky, that's not probably caused to believe someone

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Speaker 1: committed a homicide. And finally on the lingerie, her house

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Speaker 1: was a crime scene. She wasn't buying the lingerie like

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Speaker 1: the tabloid said, she was just getting items. And finally,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, didn't have right. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: can call it whatever you want to call it, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't implicate her in a a homicide. I'll say. So

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Speaker 1: she had to go out to Victoria's secrets and my

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Speaker 1: enderwear it was bubbles. It was bubble, okay, But the

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Speaker 1: thing is Nancy. She also, I'm just going to call

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Speaker 1: that probably cause, and the U they called that probably cause.

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Speaker 1: But when they were kissing in front of the house,

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Speaker 1: the next frange shows them looking to sponded Craft and

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Speaker 1: and Amanda. So you know, all the things that are

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Speaker 1: tiktof saying the shows them lists saying that she did

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Speaker 1: this are also completely consistent with and Linda Byron was

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Speaker 1: jumping in, jumping in Linda. If you look at the

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Speaker 1: if you look at the yeah, I want to jump

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Speaker 1: in on this um this statement you made that she

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Speaker 1: says that she was in the apartment when she heard

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Speaker 1: her remate screaming for her life, etcetera. Because what really

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Speaker 1: happened there was after hours and hours and hours of

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Speaker 1: this interrogation, she signed a confession at one at one

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Speaker 1: forty five in the morning and then another one at

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Speaker 1: five forty five in the morning. But to call them

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Speaker 1: confessions is really not very accurate if you look at

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Speaker 1: what she said, especially at forty five. By the way,

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Speaker 1: this was thrown out by the Supreme Court as being

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Speaker 1: a coerce statement. She said, I do not remember anything.

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Speaker 1: I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith

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Speaker 1: was screaming. At a certain point, I heard Meredith screaming.

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Speaker 1: I plugged my ears. I imagined, I imagined what could

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Speaker 1: have happened. That's why you say that again, Linda, Linda Byron,

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Speaker 1: who has had an in depth interview with Amanda Knox,

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Speaker 1: could you repeat that again for me exactly what she said?

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Speaker 1: This is. This is the statement from five in the morning,

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Speaker 1: after she has been deprived of food and water, after

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Speaker 1: she's been screamed at by people who come one after

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Speaker 1: another into the room, and after she says she was

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Speaker 1: told imagine what would have what might have happened? What

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Speaker 1: could have happened? She says, I cannot remember. Repeatedly through

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Speaker 1: this statement, she says, at a certain point, I heard

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Speaker 1: Meredith screaming, and as I was scared, I plugged up

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Speaker 1: my ears. I am very confused. I do not remember

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Speaker 1: if Meredith is screaming and if I heard thuds because

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Speaker 1: I was upset, I imagined what could have happened. That

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Speaker 1: to me is not a decisive That is not a

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Speaker 1: decisive confession. Well, okay, first of all, you said confession.

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Speaker 1: I said statement. And here is Linda Byron as she

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Speaker 1: is interviewing Amanda Knox, listen. Meredith's family is still mourning

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Speaker 1: her death, and to this day believe Amanda was involved.

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Speaker 1: We asked her about that did you kill Meredith? I

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Speaker 1: did not kill Meredith. I wish that question didn't have

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Speaker 1: to be asked. In her recently published memoir, she looks

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Speaker 1: even younger than I remember her, Knox wrote that she

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Speaker 1: felt close to Meredith the first night I went there.

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Speaker 1: She took me out to pizza with all of her friends.

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Speaker 1: She was very kind and very smart, and she didn't

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Speaker 1: quite know yet what she wanted to do with her life.

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Speaker 1: They confided in each other. She said she either wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a journalist like her dad, or she wanted

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Speaker 1: to maybe go into like international relations. She was still

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Speaker 1: figuring herself out, and in the same way, I felt

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Speaker 1: the same way, like I was there also to figure

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Speaker 1: myself out. I thought, Oh, I'll be an interpreter and

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Speaker 1: I'll be a world traveler and it'll be awesome. Those

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Speaker 1: dreams were crushed when Meredith was murdered and Amanda named

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Speaker 1: as her killer. I was arrested before I was even

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Speaker 1: able to really come to terms with the fact that

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Speaker 1: she was dead. My lawyer showed me her autopsy photos

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Speaker 1: in prison in preparation for what I was going to

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Speaker 1: have to go through in court. I I was devastated,

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Speaker 1: and I was unprepared even then, months and months and

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Speaker 1: months after my even imprisonment, after all of those times

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Speaker 1: where they talk about knives and they talk about lovers,

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Speaker 1: and they talk about Rudy good day and they and

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Speaker 1: they're talking about all of it, and this case is happening,

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Speaker 1: and yet you still are not even coming to terms

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Speaker 1: of it. Then, I actually had a friend who was murdered,

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Speaker 1: and I've had to defend myself against allegations of being

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Speaker 1: responsible for that instead of being able to come to

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Speaker 1: terms with that and to grieve and to find closure.

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Speaker 1: And I think about her most of all um when

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Speaker 1: I think about her family. I've never really had the

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Speaker 1: chance to ever meet her family, and the conditions of

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Speaker 1: their coming into contact with me ever were always through

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Speaker 1: the courtroom. I want to see Meredith's grave. I want

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Speaker 1: to be there, and I want to actually be able

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Speaker 1: to say goodbye to her. To psychoanalyst Dr Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 1: for her to say, I think this is what causes

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to still believe Amanda Knox was

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Speaker 1: in the apartment when her roommate was murdered. Um it

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Speaker 1: because to say I can't remember. And then I heard

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Speaker 1: Meredith screaming. I'm confused. I'm confused. I imagine what could

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Speaker 1: have happened in there. She's not saying I imagined or

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Speaker 1: I dreamed I heard her scream She said, I heard

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Speaker 1: Meredith screaming. Well, but wasn't this an Italian So that's

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Speaker 1: a very nuanced communication. I imagined I heard her screaming

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Speaker 1: rather than I heard her screaming. Or imagine what it

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Speaker 1: would have been like if she was screaming if she

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Speaker 1: did not speak fluent Italian. She said, no, I just

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Speaker 1: had Linda Byron say twice in a row. She said,

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Speaker 1: I'm confused. I'm confused. I heard Meredith screaming. I imagine

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Speaker 1: what was happening. Well, if she was in her boyfriend's apartment,

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Speaker 1: which was a five minute walk away, she could not

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Speaker 1: have heard her screaming. If she was in the house,

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Speaker 1: obviously she would have heard her screaming. My understanding is

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Speaker 1: that she was in the boyfriend's house, spent the night.

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Speaker 1: They smoked a joint, she had sex, they watched a movie.

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Speaker 1: She walked home the next morning, she gives a conflicting

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Speaker 1: statement to the police. But what I know is that

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Speaker 1: when somebody has experienced a horrible trauma, and I think

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Speaker 1: witnessing a scene like this would qualify as a trauma,

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Speaker 1: they can say things that are conflicting. I do believe

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Speaker 1: that can happen. You know that's interesting, Bethany, because um,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard anybody that sees a murder saying suddenly

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Speaker 1: say I heard them screaming. I've never seen that happen.

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Speaker 1: If you come upon a murder sing and then go

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Speaker 1: out and buy lingerate now to see that, I'm like you,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened, but I can tell you

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Speaker 1: that those facts are very troubling. And am Bremner, who's

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Speaker 1: not just a friend, who is a colleague, has worked

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Speaker 1: with Amanda's family and his lawyer related to a meant

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Speaker 1: friend of Amanda an Ox, And that's why I have

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Speaker 1: her here today. And I mean, I think that looks bad.

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Speaker 1: Now I know the status of the case. The Italian

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Speaker 1: High Court has exonerated her. Yes, but I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: those facts are very troubling. Anne. Nobody can say those

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Speaker 1: facts are not troubling. You know. The fact is they

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Speaker 1: asked her to imagine what happened, and that's why she

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Speaker 1: said she imagined it. This was after brow beating her

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Speaker 1: in a foreign language we've already talked about and without

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Speaker 1: an interpreter, and of course this is thrown out. She

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Speaker 1: also recanted what she had to say. Are you saying

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Speaker 1: they browbeat her because they didn't give her anything to eat?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's one o'clock in the morning, why would they.

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Speaker 1: Let's get down to what this case was really about

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Speaker 1: me and seeing that was there were no forensics. They

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Speaker 1: had two lotems they said that they connected her to

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Speaker 1: the crime. Those are found to be inadmissible, compromise and

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Speaker 1: contaminated by independent experts appointed by a judge. The highest

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Speaker 1: court in Italy. Didn't just say she was not guilty.

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Speaker 1: They said she was exonerated, that this was a travesty,

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Speaker 1: that she'd been through this. So we can go back

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Speaker 1: and we can look at what she said when they

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Speaker 1: asked her to imagine, you know, what would have happened

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Speaker 1: had she been there? And she complies and she says

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Speaker 1: that and she says she's confused. You know, it's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of nothing in this case, but it's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of what led her to serve four years

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Speaker 1: in prison for a crime she didn't commit. And that's

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Speaker 1: the bottom line. And land course confessions there, we know

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Speaker 1: they happen all over the place. I want to pause

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Speaker 1: very quickly and thank our partner as we continue to

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Speaker 1: argue about Amanda Knox again, the Italian High Court has

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Speaker 1: exonerated her and she's here in the US. In fact,

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Speaker 1: she just signed a three point eight million dollar book deal.

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Speaker 1: She is here. I want to thank our partner, and

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Speaker 1: me high profile Seattle lawyer and Bremner Linda Byron investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: Bethanie Marshall, excuse me, Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalist joining me

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Speaker 1: out of l A. And Alan Duke the Duke joining

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Speaker 1: me out of l A as well. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to what the Italian prosecutor says. The principal evidence was

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Speaker 1: mixed UG traces from which were extracted mixed DNA of

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Speaker 1: a mandan meritidista. The only explanation for that mix is

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Speaker 1: that Amanda was bleeding and touched objects that were covered

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Speaker 1: in meredis blood. Jet didn't there's no other explanation. To

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Speaker 1: Linda Byron, investigative reporter, Linda, you disagree. You have had

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Speaker 1: a chance to meet an interview in debt with Amanda Ox.

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Speaker 1: You disagree with A prosecutor explained to me your position.

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Speaker 1: What I can tell you from covering these trials and

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Speaker 1: sitting in the courtroom and listening to the prosecution and

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Speaker 1: the defenses, that the prosecution had no solid evidence of

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Speaker 1: any ever presented. And here's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: really bothered me, the evolving motive. Initially the prosecutors saying

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Speaker 1: that this was some kind of satanic right because um

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Speaker 1: Raffaeli Selecito had been interested in these kind of dark

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Speaker 1: comics in which vampires are hunted and killed and their

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Speaker 1: female vampires and the Meredith had dressed for the Halloween

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Speaker 1: party that night. Uh later the motive evolves again. Now

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Speaker 1: at the drug field sex game. No evidence put forward

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Speaker 1: for that, either when that was shown or when that

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Speaker 1: was countered so strongly enough the pause, white a minute,

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Speaker 1: White a minute. I need to understand something. Was Meredith

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Speaker 1: Kircher closed, unclosed or partially closed when her body was

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Speaker 1: found she was partially closed. Okay, so she's partially closed.

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Speaker 1: She had been raped and she was covered in blood.

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Speaker 1: I could kind of see where prosecutors got the idea

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Speaker 1: some sort of sex attack that happened did happen because

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Speaker 1: somebody was convicted of rape and murder, and that would

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Speaker 1: be the guy from the I an attack, but but

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Speaker 1: a sex game, a sex game that Meredith refused to

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Speaker 1: protect that. The theory was this, that Amanda and her

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Speaker 1: boyfriend wanted to do something fun and different and exciting

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Speaker 1: and extreme, and they decided that they were to have

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Speaker 1: this sexual tryst with Meredith Kercher, and when Meredith refused

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Speaker 1: to participate, they slid her through out and killed her.

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Speaker 1: This isn't what you're talking about. Is a motive we

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Speaker 1: see all the time from her, and that is rapes

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Speaker 1: often leads to murder because they want to cover up

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Speaker 1: the crime. The prosecutor called this a drug field sex game.

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Speaker 1: Then when that was countered in court, it became that

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Speaker 1: theory sort of drifted away, and it became Meredith was

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Speaker 1: such a wonderful, sweet, innocent girl that Amanda hated her

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Speaker 1: and this was about This is about hate, and Amanda

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Speaker 1: had bad bathroom habits and she was tired of her

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Speaker 1: roommates bothering her about those kinds of things. And then

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Speaker 1: it was about money. No, maybe Amanda's killed Meredith for money.

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Speaker 1: This is what bothered me is the prosecution did not

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Speaker 1: find a motive stick with the motive. It was an

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Speaker 1: evolving motive every time something didn't fit. In fact, at

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Speaker 1: one point the knife they had the knife, the murder knife,

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Speaker 1: allegedly didn't fit the stablemnce, so the prosecutor or said

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Speaker 1: there were two knives. That is not the way I

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Speaker 1: have seen good solid trials produce evidence that lead to conviction. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can say this, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, that motives evolve.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that the prosecution I mean the Satanic

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Speaker 1: cult things sounds kind of outlandish to me. I don't

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Speaker 1: believe I would have mentioned that, but I mean you

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Speaker 1: find out during an investigation, during a trial, you find

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Speaker 1: out evolving motives. Luckily, in the United States, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to show a motive to a jury. You have

426
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: to prove who did it and you know the date

427
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: essentially um the general date. You have to show jurisdiction,

428
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: and you have to show the murder and who did

429
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: it bam. We are not expected to crawl into the

430
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: mind of a killer and figure out what they were thinking,

431
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: but juries like to hear motives motives evolve. You may

432
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: think a case, a murder is because of one thing,

433
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: and then the more you investigate, you find out something else.

434
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: So a changing ODO doesn't concern me. What does concern

435
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: me is that another guy I believe was unrelated to

436
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, and that would be the Rudy Rudy Gooday

437
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: from the Ivory Coast who was found guilty give sex

438
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: assault and murder of Meredith Kircher. Now does that and

439
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: it was his DNA all over the room and all

440
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: over the That is a concern to me. That is

441
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: a hard fact to me. That suggests Amanda Knox is

442
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: not guilty. But I still have her claiming I put

443
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: my hands over my ears. I heard her screaming in

444
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: the next room. That makes me think that she was

445
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: there at the time. Okay, that that's where I'm coming from.

446
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: I've never ever thought Amanda Knox took a knife and

447
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 1: stab Meredith Kircher. But because of her own statements, I

448
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: can't get away from the fact that she says she

449
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: heard here's her screaming. Now, can that be explained to weight? Maybe?

450
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: But this guy has been found guilty. His his sentence

451
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: has been reduced to just sixteen years for rape and murder.

452
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: I met Marenath Krocher's family is turning cartwheels right now,

453
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Right, sixteen years can you imagine it? And

454
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 1: and his DNA was its at the scene, and uh,

455
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and her boyfriend's DNA was not there, and

456
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, from a scientific perspective, you can't. They couldn't

457
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: go in and clean up their own DNA and just

458
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: leave his DNA there, right, So obviously they weren't in

459
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: the room. But in terms of all these stories that

460
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: were being told, the sex uh story was the one

461
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: that stuck. That's the one I remember at the time.

462
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: The idea that Amanda and her boyfriend were trying to

463
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: ramp up their sexual experience, so they wanted to turn

464
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: Meredith into a sex slave, and then she resisted, so

465
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: they had to slid her throat. That was the story

466
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: that everyone was fascinated by. Um. I think that some

467
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: of the boyfriends uh Slocito's dn A was found on

468
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: Meredith ross strap, but that was forty six days later,

469
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: so that was an interesting twist too. I agree with you, Nancy, whoa,

470
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: whoa what what? What about her brass trap? Well, Meredith

471
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Kercher's boss. I remember at the time, and I was

472
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: just reading about this this morning, that Amanda Knox's boyfriend,

473
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: her new boyfriend, Salacito, is that how you pronounce his name?

474
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: That the boyfriend's DNA was found on meredith brass strap,

475
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: on a clasp, on a bros strap. But this was

476
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: forty six days after the crime, and this was quite

477
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: incriminating as well. But that was that is that that

478
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: was Linda Byron. Was her DNA found on Kercher's brass trap.

479
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: There was a trace amount of DNA that that was

480
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: attributed to Rafaeli's selective What the scientific experts from Rome

481
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: said when they were brought in at the second trial

482
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: to analyze all of this evidence, they said that that

483
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: was on was certainly from contamination. If you look at

484
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: the video of the crime scene, if you look at

485
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: the criminal as they're going through and they're processing the

486
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: crime scene, forty six days after they've been in and

487
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: out of that room over and over and in and

488
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: out of the house, they picked up this little piece

489
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 1: of a broad clasp and they handed all around, They

490
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: passed it all around and they're all looking at it.

491
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: This was found to be terribly sloppy. Do you know that, Linda,

492
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: Do you know it was handed around? You can see

493
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: it on the video and it was brought up in

494
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: court though the video. It was brought up in court. Yes,

495
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: that you see it being handed around. That that's that's

496
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: The second appellate court stated that the victim, the murder victim,

497
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher's broad class that had been cut from her

498
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: body had Solicito's d n A on the tiny metal

499
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: clasp of the bra. This is Amanda Knox's then boyfriend.

500
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: The biological d n A on the broad class that

501
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: Meredith Kircher was wearing belonged to Rafaelli Solicy too. If

502
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: he had been in that room, if he had been

503
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: handling her clothing, if he had ripped that brock left

504
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: from her body, his DNA would have been all over

505
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: the room. This is what bothered me when I covered

506
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: this trial, was I kept looking for what we normally

507
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: see in these kinds of cases, which is DNA evidance.

508
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: And if he had been inside that room and there

509
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: had been this struggle for this drug field sex game,

510
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: the prosecutor claimed that um Amanda Knox is the one

511
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: that slid her throat that she was being held back

512
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: by Rafaeli Selecci too, and that Rudy good Day was

513
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: sexually assaulting her. All of them should have had DNA

514
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: all over that room. The only DNA was found was

515
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: Rudy good Day, and it was found in the vaginal swab.

516
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: It was found in the camphort and on the pillow.

517
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: It was found on the blood on the sweatshirt warmed

518
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: by the victim, and his previous behavior was highly suspicious

519
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: of being one to enter apartments to rob equipped with knives.

520
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: All of this is in Judge Hellman's report. Judge Hellman

521
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: was the judge's second trial that exonerated Amandana. To me,

522
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: that is a more simple and more obvious scenario as well,

523
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: because I'm still looking for the connection. I mean to

524
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: me her Amanda Knox's words are damning, but I don't

525
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: I still don't have a connection between Amanda Knox, boyfriend Soelcito,

526
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: and Rudy Gooday, the guy from the Ivory Coast whose

527
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: DNA was at the scene. Did they work together, did

528
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 1: they know each other before? Any connection at all? If

529
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: I can connect the three of them, then that would

530
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: be a leg to stand on. But were they connected, Linda,

531
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: was anybody connected to Rudy Gooday. Rudy good Day had

532
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: been known to play basketball in the basketball court near

533
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: where the girls lived in this apartment in the house

534
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: and below their floor. So this was a this was

535
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: a two story kind of almost like a duplex type

536
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: thing where a number of young men lived there. Ruddy

537
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: Gooday was known to have come to their apartment, to

538
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: their part of the home and spend time with them.

539
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: So he has a very peripheral connection to that house.

540
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: What you're saying, good Day spent time with who the

541
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: boys that lived beneath the girls. This is a house

542
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: that has two stories, and like many many houses in Italy,

543
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: and also here, you may run out one floor to

544
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: one group of roommates and you may run out another

545
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: floor to another group of roommates. So below below the

546
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: four rooms where these you know these um college where

547
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: e Meredith and Amanda and the two other women lived,

548
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: there was an apartment that was occupied by some young

549
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: men who were known to have an acquaintance with Ruddy Goodet. Gotcha,

550
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: But there was no common there's no common entrance between

551
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: the two places. And with me is Seattle lawyer and Bremner,

552
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: who is related to friends of Amanda Knox that group.

553
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: And was there any connection between who we know is

554
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: there because of DNA and her vagina and that would

555
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: be Rudy good Day. Is there any connection between him

556
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: and the boyfriend raphael A Selasita. No, And you know

557
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: he also confessed on skype Rooty good Day and he fled,

558
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: and we know that evidence of flight is evidence of guilt.

559
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: Nancy and Linda also enumerated the other things that indicate

560
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: his guilt. He's all over that room. And he had

561
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: a fast tracked trial. That's just like a slow guilty

562
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: play in the United States. He was tried together with

563
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: the other defendants in their pre trial hearing on problem

564
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: because that's why he got a better sentence. Better man,

565
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: you're not kidding sixty. He can already leave Jill. I

566
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: think for work for a lows. I mean, really, guys,

567
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: take a listen to more of what that prosecutor said.

568
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: The the erotic game was always part of the case.

569
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: I think that night Amanda wanted to make Meredith pay

570
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: for judging her, but she found offensive rough. I'm all

571
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 1: for looking at the hard evidence. And again I said,

572
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: I couldn't get away from Amanda Knox, stating that she

573
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: could hear Merrideth screaming and put her hands over her ears,

574
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: which means she had to be in the home at

575
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: the time. All right, now, how can I reconcile that

576
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: with this crazy scheme, that this motive which they didn't

577
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: need anyway, but they blurted it out, that Amanda Knox

578
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: murdered Meryth Kircher because Meredith Kircher judged her lifestyle. That

579
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me. What I would need to

580
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: really believe this to believe the prosecution's case. What I

581
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: would really need is a connection between Amanda Knox or

582
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, her lover Rafaeli Solcy too with the rapist,

583
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: and that would be Rudy Gooday. I know he did

584
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: it because his DNA is on and in her body

585
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: and all over the room. I think that prosecutor has

586
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: had reason to believe Amanda and her boyfriend may have

587
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: been involved, But I don't see a connection right now

588
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: to the day that will hold up in court. What

589
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: is happening now with Amanda Knox. I know that she

590
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: was the focus a very popular documentary. I know that

591
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: she says or her supporters have said she's returning to

592
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: Italy to rid herself of the trauma of the false

593
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: and president, and that Meredith Kircher's family says, please don't please.

594
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: You're the only one that has profited of Meredith brutal murder,

595
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: our daughter, our our sister. Please don't come back. Just

596
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, deal with your trauma in your own way,

597
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: that's what they're saying. I don't know why they would

598
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: say that if they believe she was innocent. I also

599
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: know she just did almost a four million dollar book deal.

600
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: So where does she's Where does her life stand today?

601
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: A Bremner, Yeah, she's doing well. She's she's very low

602
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: key in some time with her, even at her house,

603
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: and she seems to have her feet on the ground.

604
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: I just think it's, you know, one step at a time. Um.

605
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: She doesn't seek out the limelight. But people don't bug

606
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: her in the press here in writing said they wouldn't

607
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: bother when she has not to be contacted, So I

608
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: think that's good. But she's um, she's got forecasts orange cats. Um, Yeah,

609
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: she forecasts um. And she did go to Europe. She

610
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: didn't go to Italy, but she did go to Europe

611
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: recently with her boyfriend, and he's a great guy. I

612
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: worked with his mom in the court system. So I

613
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: think that those are all good things. You know that

614
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: she seems to be settling down in a good way.

615
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: What happened to the charge that she blinded an innocent

616
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: person another person, well that that was that was still

617
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: out there. Linda can talk more about that because I

618
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: wasn't in court for that part of it. But Amanda

619
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: had a book deal years ago, Nancy, and that money

620
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: has gone to pay for lawyers. I mean, she had

621
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: lawyers for you know, nearly a decade, including here in

622
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: the United States, because there's a potential extradition. She um,

623
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: there's a Netflix piece that she participated in but she

624
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: was not compensated for. And then also, you know, she's

625
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: been very active and innocence projects around the country. You know,

626
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: I've attended a number of those with her. You know,

627
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: she's settled down with a great guy. His name is

628
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: Chris Robinson. He's a writer. He was from Hunter College,

629
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: he was a professor there. She writes for the West

630
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: Seattle Harold. They supported her. She has a life and

631
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: arts column, and she's trying to live a normal life.

632
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: You know, she seems you know, of course anyone would

633
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: have PTSD from this. Anybody would be completely traumatized from

634
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: being internationally vilified, you know, for such a long time.

635
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: But she's back in Seattle and she's living a quiet life.

636
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: You know. I just can't get my mind around Linda

637
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: Byron uh investigative reporter. They collimed this girl was in

638
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: some sex game that went wrong and so she ended

639
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: up murdering her roommate. I mean, a lot of room

640
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: mates don't get along. I get it, but that is crazy.

641
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: That's crazy. I mean, if the prosecution had hoped for

642
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: a conviction that was a that shooting yourself in the foot,

643
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: throwing that out, that's a motive that they just didn't

644
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: I the jury just did not buy that motive. And

645
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: it was and there was very little presented in court

646
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: that would indicate that they had a bed. Well wait

647
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: a minute, somebody got somebody bought it, because somebody bought

648
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: it somewhere the first time that is true. She she

649
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: she was and then she was exonerated, and then that

650
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: was thrown out, and then she was essentially reconvicted by

651
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: the Florence court. But in the end, if you read

652
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: through all of the documents of all of the courts,

653
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: including the Supreme Court, uh that motive was dismissed as

654
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: being unsupported. The Italians sue Italians, you know, I want

655
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: to I want to ask you, though you said that

656
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: that Amanda Knox has profited from this, and my understanding

657
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: I said that Meredith Kercher's family said Amanda Knox is

658
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: the only one that has profited from meredith murder, which

659
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: they did, Okay, point taken in terms of profit, though,

660
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: I do want to point out what Ann said, and

661
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: that is that the money went, as far as I

662
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: understand it, to pay for her lawyers and to satisfy

663
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 1: the mortgages that her parents and her grandmother took out

664
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: on their homes to pay for her legal bills, and

665
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: to be in Italy because the family always make sure

666
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: someone was there to visit her in prison once a

667
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: week when she got a prison visit, So they rented

668
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: an apartment. This was a highly expensive defense for them.

669
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: I think they threw everything they could at it. And

670
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: who wouldn't do that as a parent, to have you know,

671
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: your child in a foreign prison for a crime that

672
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 1: you do not believe she committed. Um, and I think

673
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: we do have to look at in the end, the

674
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: Italian Supreme Court did not just say innocent in that

675
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: she excuse me, they didn't just say not guilty. In

676
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: other words, there's a distinction in Italy between you did

677
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 1: not prove the crime was committed and exoneration innocence. They

678
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: said she was exonerated completely. And I think we have

679
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: to have some faith in in the Italian justice systems

680
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: ultimate processing of this crime. And even heard his trial,

681
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: even though it's with years and years and years, certainly

682
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: didn't feel about the way we would, you know, expect

683
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: to see it. But in all that time and all

684
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: those trials and all that testimony, I never heard or

685
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: saw a single piece of solid, convincing evidence that showed

686
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: Amanda knoxes in that room or committed that crime. Well,

687
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: I have absolutely no faith in the Italian court system

688
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: because and I'm not saying they got it wrong, because

689
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: I never saw the connection between the boyfriend solicito and

690
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and the rapist who I mean, you can't

691
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: tell me he raped her and then somebody else just

692
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: happened to walk in within the next hour and murder her. Okay,

693
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: he murdered her and I can't see a connection between

694
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: the three of them. But I don't have any faith

695
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: in the Italian system. And I'll tell you why, because

696
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: she's tried, she's convicted, but it was held on appeal,

697
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: then it was reversed on appeal. And then what they

698
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: re tried her on appeal what they decided to re

699
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: look at the evidence with how do how do you

700
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: reconvict someone on appeal without another draw Nancy. They had

701
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: the first trial, of course, was a conviction in two

702
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, I think it was, but they have

703
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: was called trial di novo really in Italy. So the

704
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: second trial was the second trial, slow it down, slow

705
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: it down. In Italy. There on appeal, it's called a

706
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: trial de novo, which is you know, means a new trial,

707
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: a trial anew. So they presented evidence on appeal and

708
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: that's where the experts were appointed on appeal in the

709
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: trial to novo by the judge, and that's where the

710
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: experts said that the evidence was compromised. Yes, yes, but

711
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: then after that was she there, yes, yes, but for

712
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: the trial, the trial for the preclusion, and this was

713
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: really triple jeopardy in my mind, she was exonerated or

714
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: she was acquitted in two thousand eleven, and then she

715
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: was tried again in abstentia and convicted, and then the court,

716
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, the highest court. Cecy said she was

717
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: completely exonerated, not just innocent, not just not guilty. Guys,

718
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: I heard you the first, you know, maybe ten times

719
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: you said exonerated. I get it. She was exonerated. And

720
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm looking at all the sides, and I appreciate it

721
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: when other people try to have an open mind, okay,

722
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: and to pretend there is not evidence that appears to

723
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: be damning. That's disingenuous to me. So I'm looking at

724
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: all the evidence that I know, and there is evidence

725
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: that looks bad for her to me. But again, when

726
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: I look at the hard evidence, Bethany Marshall, I just

727
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 1: don't see that connection with the with the rapist. I don't.

728
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: I don't see. Well, I agree with you. The science

729
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: doesn't does not back up that Meredith. And I'm sorry

730
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: Amanda and her boyfriend were in the room with Meredith, right,

731
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: but the behavioral evidence does not look good at all.

732
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: The fact that she said I heard her screaming. You

733
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: kept asking me about that and I've been thinking about it,

734
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: and the only possibility I can think of was that

735
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: she didn't spend the night with her boyfriend, she went

736
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: back to her apartment, heard her roommate screaming, ignored it,

737
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: and then went back to her boyfriend's apartment. Again, the

738
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: only thing I can think of. And then the video

739
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: we've seen of her kissing her boyfriend the next morning,

740
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: the shopping for lingerie at Bubbles, it can only be,

741
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: you know, one of two things. One is that she

742
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 1: was experiencing something that we call reaction formation. That's when

743
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: you turn an underlying feeling into its opposite, so a

744
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: feeling of great shock. You know, I feel very close

745
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: to you. Okay, I think you're awesome. But when you

746
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: have to just start doing backflips to explain something away,

747
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: that doesn't work with me. All right now, I know

748
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: what it is like to have someone very dear to

749
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: be murdered and going out and buying lingerie the next morning,

750
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: to me, does not indicate that you're the least bit concerned.

751
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: And and Bremner again, I respect you. You're known all

752
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: over the world, But to tell me, well, her her

753
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: apartment was a crime scene, she had to what go

754
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: buy a thong. No, not buying that either. So I

755
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: don't know what it means. It may mean nothing, but

756
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: I do know this. Let me throw this to dry.

757
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: And again, none of that a murder makes period. The

758
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: fact that Meredith Kircher's family, according to delhimail dot com protests,

759
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: does not want her, Amanda Knox, to come back to

760
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: Italy and is They're very they're very firm about it,

761
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: and they continue to say she's the only one that

762
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: profited from Meredith death. Now Meredith murder, Now what does

763
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: that mean to you? Because in all the years I

764
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: prosecuted homicides, I can only kind of and ful of

765
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: times the victims family did not support the prosecution. Typically

766
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: it was when they were related, like you know, domestic

767
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: commicide and the children did not want their dad prosecuted.

768
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: That's a common example of the murder victims family not

769
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: supporting the prosecution. Here, the murder victims family does not

770
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: seem to support Amanda Knox. Why is that, you know, Nancy, Nancy,

771
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that I keep thinking about is

772
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: that their daughter is dead and Amanda is alive. And

773
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: how painful is that for the family. And not only

774
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: is Amanda alive. But there's, as we're talking about, all

775
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: the behavioral evidence, she was kissing her boyfriend at the scene,

776
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 1: going and buying lingerie, so disrespectful towards Meredith, and whatever

777
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: the underlying psychological motivations for that Behaviorally, it was a

778
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: huge sign of disrespect. So I can see why the

779
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: family would not want more a reminders of this. And also,

780
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, Amanda has profited, even though the proceeds may

781
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: have gone towards her legal defense. Four million dollars. That's

782
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: a lot of money for a book, and she now

783
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: has fame, she has notoriety, She's sort of situated for

784
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: the rest of her life, even even though she's had

785
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: this horrible trauma. I think every time this family sees Amanda,

786
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: they have to think about what would their own daughter's

787
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: life had been like if she was alive. I was

788
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: thinking during this show, how old would Meredith have been

789
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: at this point? I think Meredith would have been This

790
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: was ten years ago, right, this is the anniversary Meredith

791
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: was twenty one years old. She would have been thirty

792
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: one years old and living a full life. So how

793
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: can they want to see Amanda living a full life

794
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: when their own daughter was cut off from that possibility

795
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 1: and that potential. Okay, Bethany, that actually makes a lot

796
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: of sense to me because when see I can't say

797
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: nearly as well as you do, but when they say Amanda,

798
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: it's everything Meredith can never be and it reminds them

799
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: of that horrible time. Do they blame Amanda? Do they

800
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: still believe that she is involved and is guilty? Linda Byron,

801
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: I can only say what I've what I've read, and

802
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: what I've seen reported, and that is that they have

803
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: always had at least some suspicion that Amanda was involved.

804
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they relied on the prosecutors and

805
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 1: trusted the prosecutors to tell them that this is what happened,

806
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: and we have the evidence to back it up. But

807
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: no matter how, I know that they were quote better

808
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: with the night and if they did not think that

809
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: she was involved, and why were they better? I think

810
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: that that's troubling, is very troubling, and that Amanda either

811
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: killed their daughter or was involved. And you know, you

812
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: have to think about do they really want the celebrity

813
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,959
Speaker 1: and all of this is Amanda Knox. Do they really

814
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: want her to come back to Italy or to visit

815
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: Perugia where the murder occur, because all of the the

816
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: hights and all of the hoop law and all of

817
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: it is going to start all over again. I mean

818
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: people they have not forgotten about. Well, this is what

819
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: they have said. It's it's been years, it's now since

820
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: Meredith was murdered there in Italy. The family and I

821
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: am quoting from the Independent, the family is in shock

822
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: after the verdict. They don't wish to make any other declarations.

823
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: I've had to explain to them there are no now,

824
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: no avenues open to them. There is a great sense

825
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: of bitterness. They are, the reporter says. The Kircher's, who

826
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: had previously spoken of their confidence in the Italian justice system,

827
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: have made it clear they believe Miss Knox and Mr

828
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: sols Too were involved in the killing, along with Rudy Gooday,

829
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: who has already been jailed for murder. Now there's no

830
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: getting around it. Tell Italy Supreme Court of Cassassion has

831
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: clear heard Miss Knox and Mr Solacito. Um, what does

832
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: it mean? They say that there were changing alibis by

833
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. They're convinced they're guilty, but they claimed that

834
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 1: Good Day could never have acted alone. I think when

835
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: you have a man and a woman alone an apartment,

836
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: that he can't overcome her, assault her and murder her,

837
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 1: because I've seen it happen so many many times. There

838
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 1: will always be those people that still believe Amanda Knox

839
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: is guilty. But the Italian court has ruled and exonerated her.

840
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: But the mystery goes on and Bremner, Linda Byron, Bethany Marshall,

841
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: Alan Duke, thank you for being with us, Nancy Grace

842
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over

843
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries? Do you wish they were a group of

844
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: people just like you to talk motives and alibis with.

845
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: If so, join the crime Con Cold Case Club and

846
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover

847
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt.

848
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of

849
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