Speaker 1: So the first time I heard and saw Brian Houston,
Speaker 1: I was in Hillsong, Phoenix for the first time, and
Speaker 1: when it came time for the sermon to happen, they
Speaker 1: dragged a screen onto the stage in Phoenix and they
Speaker 1: started playing a recording of Brian speaking, and I remember
Speaker 1: trying to understand what he was saying because his accent
Speaker 1: was so thick that I was just like my face
Speaker 1: was like frowning, like not pitting everything together. And when
Speaker 1: I started to finally understand what he was saying, I
Speaker 1: started to realize that he wasn't that great of a preacher.
Speaker 1: It was more of a motivational speech, and he said
Speaker 1: he was going to give us a list on how
Speaker 1: to be a better person, for example, and he never
Speaker 1: finished the list. He only got to the first point.
Speaker 1: So it was hilarious to me the fact that this man,
Speaker 1: who is like, quote unquote the big eagle within Hillsong
Speaker 1: at the time, didn't preach and wasn't charismatic in comparison
Speaker 1: to other people. So when I see him, and from
Speaker 1: that experience moving forward, I quickly knew that he was
Speaker 1: just a white man, a white heterosexual man who got
Speaker 1: lucky to have the platform. He did because of his father, obviously,
Speaker 1: but now seeing his downfall and him being removed from
Speaker 1: Hillsong and the board, it seems to me like his
Speaker 1: luck has run out. You're listening to false prophets Hillsong
Speaker 1: the story of a mega church and its followers. I
Speaker 1: am no m Audibe and I used to be a
Speaker 1: part of Hillsong, but I left and now I'm telling
Speaker 1: my story. I suppose his luck has run out in
Speaker 1: a way. And this is journalist l Hardy getting the
Speaker 1: inside story that Hillsong didn't want to tell, but just
Speaker 1: saying his houses in Sydney, He's certainly still living a
Speaker 1: very charmed and blessed life. He's exceptionally wealthy. He has
Speaker 1: a beautiful mansion out in the hills. He has an
Speaker 1: apartment on Bondai Beach, probably the best real estate in Australia.
Speaker 1: He's still jetting around the world, visiting friends in Europe
Speaker 1: and the United States. So I guess, you know, public
Speaker 1: humiliation sounds like a pretty horrible thing to go through,
Speaker 1: but in terms of his general circumstances, he's still got
Speaker 1: a lot of luck on his side. I've recently returned
Speaker 1: to my hometown of Sydney to take a closer look
Speaker 1: at the Houston lifestyle. We're on our way to Brian
Speaker 1: and Bobby Houston's house. It's in the upmarket suburb of
Speaker 1: glen Haven, about fifteen minutes from Hillsong's headquarters. It's a
Speaker 1: very nice, manicured suburb, but it's quiet. It's there's almost
Speaker 1: an eeriness out here. There's no kids riding there by,
Speaker 1: acts around. Feels a bit walled off and maybe that's
Speaker 1: why the Houston's like it. It's only a few miles
Speaker 1: from the school hall where Hillsong was started by Brian
Speaker 1: and Bobby in the nineteen eighties with just a few followers,
Speaker 1: but it's a world away from this lifestyle and wealth.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, a little leafy, could sac there's some sort
Speaker 1: of bushland it's looking over, but they're quite nice. Say
Speaker 1: they're big houses. They're modern houses there. I think the
Speaker 1: word is McMansions, but I'm not sure if that's too disparaging.
Speaker 1: You know, some of the houses have letters spelt out
Speaker 1: instead of the numbers. Brian's come a long way. He
Speaker 1: was born in New Zealand and both his parents were
Speaker 1: in the Salvation Army. His father Frank was a preacher too.
Speaker 1: Lots of beautiful trees, but it's it certainly as a
Speaker 1: well healed area and a private area, to the point
Speaker 1: where I wonder, if you know, we do another lap
Speaker 1: or two, that someone might come out and take down
Speaker 1: our number plate. But one of their children, that their
Speaker 1: younger stood, Laura, lives nearby here, so we're going to
Speaker 1: go check out her place quickly as well. Laura, her
Speaker 1: husband Peter, and her brothers Benjamin and Joel are all
Speaker 1: part of the Hillsong Empire. It's a family affair. So
Speaker 1: we're coming up to Ryan and Bobby Houston's house. Your
Speaker 1: destination is on the left. I think it's just one
Speaker 1: of here. She said, it's a huge gate. Does that
Speaker 1: look like a huge gate to you? This looks like
Speaker 1: a pretty big gate, huge brick settin better spikes. Wow,
Speaker 1: it does look pretty grand house fit for a pre
Speaker 1: checking and you can enjoy the lifestyle too, because the
Speaker 1: house is now for sale. This is what the sales
Speaker 1: pitch says. No expense has been bad and the sensational
Speaker 1: property designed for a spectacular entertainer's lifestyle. For about three
Speaker 1: million US dollars. All this can be yours, including walk
Speaker 1: in wardrobes, a pool, and a hot top. We're out
Speaker 1: the front of Brian and Bobby's house. Oh fuck, is
Speaker 1: a coupling up than well? Some of the Houstons are
Speaker 1: checking out me and my producer Sharon. But it's okay.
Speaker 1: We're on public property, just hanging there. Are they going
Speaker 1: checking out? Should check us out? Hey there we're diad
Speaker 1: a camera. We're just recording some audio. Yeah, for a podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're having a chat to you guys. We'll have an
Speaker 1: advo chat to you guys if you want to pardon.
Speaker 1: She's are the best. That's Laura Peter. Yeah, he's still
Speaker 1: on the board. Fuck, I reckon. I wonder if one
Speaker 1: of the neighbors said something or how did they know
Speaker 1: when were here? They saw it walking, but they might
Speaker 1: have a camera. Sorry, my heart's going every miles an
Speaker 1: hour and now yeah, no, no no, no, it's just you
Speaker 1: know which Yeah, Um, do you see the look? I
Speaker 1: don't know if you saw the look on Laura's face,
Speaker 1: but she did. She looked filthy, did she? Yeah? She
Speaker 1: was not happy. We just had a bit of a
Speaker 1: confrontation with one of their children. They reverse the car out.
Speaker 1: It was Laura and Peter. Laura's their their youngest stare
Speaker 1: down and they had their kids in the car, and
Speaker 1: they reversed up and they asked us what we were
Speaker 1: doing here and why we had cameras and if we
Speaker 1: were a recording. Yeah, we just just said that we
Speaker 1: would love to speak to them. That they didn't seem
Speaker 1: interested and drove off. So, yeah, that was a bit
Speaker 1: of an interesting experience when you've been writing about people.
Speaker 1: I'd love for them to speak with me, but I
Speaker 1: don't think that they ever will because there's a Norwestern
Speaker 1: business work. Okay, time to head off to hills On
Speaker 1: Church and there are a few to choose from in Sydney.
Speaker 1: We're going to an inner city one in the Waterloo area.
Speaker 1: Write out the Century Circuit. I had a piece of
Speaker 1: newspaper this morning with some leaked emails from the Houston
Speaker 1: family when all of the problems are going down with
Speaker 1: Brian being forced to resign back in March twenty two,
Speaker 1: and it's so interesting how much of this stuff is
Speaker 1: circulating in the church, and sources of mine inside and
Speaker 1: formerly of the church. We're already messaging me at nine
Speaker 1: o'clock this morning. It's really interesting to see just how
Speaker 1: much this stuff spreads like wildfire, that there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people that just really want the Houstons to
Speaker 1: be brought back to earth. The story was about leaked
Speaker 1: emails from two of the Houston children, Benjamin and Laura.
Speaker 1: They sent the board emails on March twenty and they're
Speaker 1: very emotional and it really I think what they really show,
Speaker 1: which is most interesting to me, is that the Houstons
Speaker 1: consider the church their church. It's the family firm. They
Speaker 1: think that they built it from the ground up. Whereas
Speaker 1: if you speak to a lot of current and former
Speaker 1: Hills members, they say, no, no, no no, this is our church.
Speaker 1: It's a community asset. We built this with our labor,
Speaker 1: with our people, with our love, with our commitment. And
Speaker 1: that's really at the heart of the power struggle at
Speaker 1: the moment in the church is people saying that the
Speaker 1: Houstons need to recognize that, you know, they were obviously
Speaker 1: a huge part of its success and its growth, but
Speaker 1: it's time for them to go. And I don't think
Speaker 1: that any of the children certainly are seen as natural
Speaker 1: leaders or heirs to the church. And Brian did not
Speaker 1: have a succession plan in place. He thought he had
Speaker 1: another good ten years or so. He's sixty seven now,
Speaker 1: he's a very fit guy and he does not want
Speaker 1: to give up control. So I certainly think that we're
Speaker 1: going to be seeing this playing out for a long
Speaker 1: time to come. This is a time of real jeopardy
Speaker 1: for Hillsong. Sure it's face scandals before, but this time
Speaker 1: it's brought down the top guy, Brian Houston, has been
Speaker 1: forced out after an investigation into inappropriate behavior towards two women. Now,
Speaker 1: for many people in Australia, Brian Houston was Hillsong and
Speaker 1: while the Houston's plan their next move, the Hillsong board
Speaker 1: installs an interim leader and argues about how to protect
Speaker 1: the church and followers. Let's find out how they're feeling. Right,
Speaker 1: then your destination will be on the least. Were at
Speaker 1: Hillsong Waterloo, which is the city campus, and it's Sunday
Speaker 1: morning and a lot of young, happy people are walking
Speaker 1: out of the church. So we thought we'd got to
Speaker 1: a few of them and have a word. I we're
Speaker 1: just making a podcast about the church and we'd sort
Speaker 1: of want to tell both sides. So we're just wondering
Speaker 1: a few guys ago, no oay to be honest, that's
Speaker 1: the kind of response I think we're going to get.
Speaker 1: You just don't get many people who still go to
Speaker 1: Hillsong talking about it. There's certainly a perception there's been
Speaker 1: fed to them for many years that the media is
Speaker 1: always telling the wrong story and he has always been
Speaker 1: against the church and the Houstons, and that the media
Speaker 1: only cares about the money. We're just wondering us about
Speaker 1: the church, and we're trying to tell both sides. So
Speaker 1: we just want to know what you love about your
Speaker 1: church everything? Sorry, but what's everything community? I attribute everything
Speaker 1: good in my life to this church. I've been born
Speaker 1: in the church. I've been there since I was a
Speaker 1: little kid, and I love it. It's well all my
Speaker 1: friends are some of my families. I love worship, I
Speaker 1: love the community. I love going to dinner Sunday night
Speaker 1: with church. I love being able to lead kids on
Speaker 1: their journey on Fridays as a youth leader. It's one
Speaker 1: of the most fulfilling things in the Taiwer. You come
Speaker 1: here and you might be broken, you might not feel
Speaker 1: like you have a place in this crazy world. You
Speaker 1: come here and everyone's really welcoming. They welcome you with
Speaker 1: open arms. They don't judge you for you know, what
Speaker 1: you've done. Do you feel that her son gets a
Speaker 1: bit of a rough ride in the media. Church is
Speaker 1: not a place of perfect people at all, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone's claiming that or you know, and they
Speaker 1: think like we're just imperfect people. Yeah. I think the
Speaker 1: main thing is that other community is fantastic. Everyone's you know,
Speaker 1: loves on each other and obviously Christians, and so we
Speaker 1: find it's a really good place to worship, full of
Speaker 1: authenticity and genuine people. A people use the word community
Speaker 1: a lot, and I'm really interested in that concept of
Speaker 1: what that means in relation to the church. Well, I think, well,
Speaker 1: this is a good example. This is Keith. We met
Speaker 1: him at church and we see each other every week
Speaker 1: and we basically hang out not just that church for us,
Speaker 1: at a church as well. So we're talking about community,
Speaker 1: we're talking about that sense of family. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: gonna say. It does really feel like family because we
Speaker 1: have so many new people coming here all the time,
Speaker 1: and we'll welcome a lot of new people and it's
Speaker 1: just an ever growing community and family. It's something that's
Speaker 1: really different. It's just grow so much so and we'll
Speaker 1: welcome everyone from the new bonds to like people who
Speaker 1: are in their eighties or hundreds or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we're really happy to have everyone here. Just become part
Speaker 1: of this awesome family. Hilson has been given a bit
Speaker 1: of a rough trott media lately. How do you guys
Speaker 1: feel about that. It's not really lately, It's been for
Speaker 1: as long as I've known living in Sydney. I think
Speaker 1: the way that we navigates we have a personal experience
Speaker 1: of hell Song and we don't It's not like based
Speaker 1: on what people have said or what we've read. It's
Speaker 1: actually our own personal experience and nothing can really trump that.
Speaker 1: The media. Yeah, yeah, it's sometimes one person's perspective. And
Speaker 1: we have experienced the leadership here. We know personally some
Speaker 1: of the leaders and the pastors and we've been mentored
Speaker 1: by them and we absolutely adore them. And a lot
Speaker 1: of it comes down to our faith and our personal
Speaker 1: walk with God, and that's the lens that we use
Speaker 1: to view things like scrutiny and stuff. In the church.
Speaker 1: Everything's being shaken, but this is I think a small
Speaker 1: part of what's in the long term. So we believe
Speaker 1: that we're just gonna continue to grow, continue to do
Speaker 1: what we need to do. I really enjoyed speaking to
Speaker 1: Keith and his friends just now because for me, they're
Speaker 1: really typical Hillsong is. They're aware of the issues that
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily shying away from them, but they're able
Speaker 1: to square it by saying that humans are imperfect, that
Speaker 1: we're all sinners before God, that God is the only
Speaker 1: one that's perfect. Ultimately, what we seem to keep coming
Speaker 1: back to why people are saying in the church is
Speaker 1: they just like the sense of community. You'll still find
Speaker 1: a lot of people now saying, well, it's our church,
Speaker 1: it's not the Houston's Church. A lot of people Brian
Speaker 1: is a figure that's on the TV. Sometimes their connection
Speaker 1: is much more deep and real within the church. The
Speaker 1: notable thing from when I went inside is how much
Speaker 1: the attendances have dropped from when I was there in January.
Speaker 1: Still very much the same crowd representative of the local area,
Speaker 1: lots of young people, but attendances would be down at
Speaker 1: least half or two thirds on the amount of people
Speaker 1: that I saw in January. Pretty significant. It's difficult to
Speaker 1: say for sure, but considering I've been told that attendances
Speaker 1: are down at a lot of the places. I think
Speaker 1: it's pretty safe to assume that attendances are down here,
Speaker 1: and the reason is the scandal, the embarrassment. Maybe some
Speaker 1: people are just finding new churches. Hillsong has a lot
Speaker 1: of imitators and sometimes it's just easier to go to
Speaker 1: a different church. Just to give you a sense of
Speaker 1: the term oil that went on behind the scenes, there
Speaker 1: were real divisions about whether Brian Houston should be forced
Speaker 1: out of the church he found it. He has loyal
Speaker 1: supporters as well as critics. I've seen a letter that
Speaker 1: Hillsong's hate of people and development. John Mays wrote to
Speaker 1: the board just before Brian was sacked. He described Brian
Speaker 1: as a man who saw himself as beyond disciplinary boundaries
Speaker 1: and normal societal expectations. He dismissed an investigation into Brian's
Speaker 1: behavior as dribble. Finally, he calls on the board to
Speaker 1: consider removing Brian permanently from his position in Hillsong along
Speaker 1: with his wife. Within days that happens, No wonder. Security
Speaker 1: guards outside the church are feeling nervous about journalists. Hey, hey,
Speaker 1: how are you going to get them on the team. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard that you're doing there some sort of reporting.
Speaker 1: They're just doing box pops style. That's just as people
Speaker 1: that's what they think she's doing. She's doing a voice
Speaker 1: her and then we ask people what they've seen. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no filming. No, no, they're just audio. Yeah, just audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. Isaac from the venue team came out. They
Speaker 1: have a lot of volunteers in different positions, and they
Speaker 1: certainly have a production and venue teams and there he
Speaker 1: certainly looks like the head of security and the security
Speaker 1: gardment and told him that I had to look around.
Speaker 1: They clearly don't want us in there. And you know,
Speaker 1: we're outside in public property, so that's fine. And they
Speaker 1: just said that we can't take photos inside because they
Speaker 1: are children around. But yeah, they're clearly not chilled by
Speaker 1: us being here. A lot of Hillsong insiders won't talk publicly,
Speaker 1: but one is so angry about the investigation into Brian
Speaker 1: that she decided to speak out. Details of his behavior
Speaker 1: are pretty sketchy. The most recent incident centers on forty
Speaker 1: minutes Brian spent in a woman's hotel room. He says
Speaker 1: he can't remember what happened, but he does say that
Speaker 1: he'd been taking pills and booze. My contact feels fobbed
Speaker 1: off by the church, but talking publicly would cause a
Speaker 1: rift in the community and in her family, so her
Speaker 1: words are spoken by an actor. It kind of brought
Speaker 1: a whole level of shock into learning who these people
Speaker 1: really are. And maybe this is the tip of the
Speaker 1: iceberg of what we've been fed for copious amounts of years.
Speaker 1: So when all this other stuff came out, it was like, ah, okay,
Speaker 1: it all brings it back to what's this narcissist behavior
Speaker 1: the whole time? And I look back, I'm like, literally
Speaker 1: in horror. It was great at the beginning, but when
Speaker 1: did it turn from being about people to about you
Speaker 1: and your needs being met and your fame and your
Speaker 1: celebrity status. And I think what it's turned into is, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's disgusting, disgusting. I don't think they will come back
Speaker 1: to Hillsong Church as it is. I think they will
Speaker 1: relaunch their careers somehow. If they ever come back, I'm
Speaker 1: leaving because then it's all a joke. Monday Beach is
Speaker 1: the iconic picture of Sydney. It's sunshine, beautiful people, everyone's
Speaker 1: in in the ocean, surfing, going for a run with
Speaker 1: their dog along the promenades, people doing yoga and meditating,
Speaker 1: sitting outdoors at the cafes. It's a real place to
Speaker 1: see and be seeing and it's the lifestyle capital of Sydney.
Speaker 1: And needless to say, property here is pretty expensive. I've
Speaker 1: come to Bondai because it's the second home of Brian
Speaker 1: and Bobby Houston, and it's kind of emblematic of everything
Speaker 1: that's gone wrong with the church. Their apartment is in
Speaker 1: a prime real estate position, right on the south end
Speaker 1: of the beach. They'd probably be able to throw from
Speaker 1: their curtains and watch the beach each morning. The property's
Speaker 1: worth around two million US and for a second home,
Speaker 1: that's quite a lot of money. And it's really a
Speaker 1: long way from what the church started out as and
Speaker 1: from what people who have given so much to the
Speaker 1: church over the years feel. They felt that they're building
Speaker 1: a community, that they're building a place to do good
Speaker 1: in the world. They are absolute mega celebrities within the
Speaker 1: Christian pastor circle, particularly in the US, because they change
Speaker 1: the business model. They made it okay to be this brand,
Speaker 1: and so many preachers and churches around the world wanted
Speaker 1: to to emulate that. A number of them brought into
Speaker 1: the Hillsong umbrella where they give you a five percent
Speaker 1: of all their profits to the overarching Hillsong Church to
Speaker 1: get the branding, to get the training to be more
Speaker 1: like Brian and Bobby. So even in parts of Africa
Speaker 1: and South America, whether a Hillsong branches now, they're throwing
Speaker 1: huge numbers of congregants because people feel as though they're
Speaker 1: part of something bigger. It's not just the small local church.
Speaker 1: They felt as though they were part of a big
Speaker 1: global brand. And Brian and Bobby have always been the happy, friendly,
Speaker 1: good looking, suave faces of US. Dramatic allegations have been
Speaker 1: leveled tonight against Hillsong. The mega church is accused of
Speaker 1: breaking Australian law by sending millions of dollars overseas and
Speaker 1: then august rating an elaborate cover up. On August the twelfth,
Speaker 1: a statement of claim was filed in the courts in
Speaker 1: Australia with an employee of Hillsong's finance department. And this
Speaker 1: is just dynamite. The one thing that anyone that's looked
Speaker 1: into Hillsong over the last ten twenty years has been
Speaker 1: trying to find out is how much money is there
Speaker 1: and where's it going? And this is the closest that
Speaker 1: we've gotten yet to looking at Hillsong's books. The employee
Speaker 1: made a number of complaints about the way that they
Speaker 1: were handling transferring money between different Hillsong entities and different
Speaker 1: Hillsong countries, and this employee is said to have downloaded
Speaker 1: some forty thousand documents. Court documents claim church leaders used
Speaker 1: tax free money for large cash gifts to Hillsong's founder
Speaker 1: and his family. So some of the other interesting things
Speaker 1: that have come out of it, firstly the sums of
Speaker 1: money that are being moved around, and this is charity
Speaker 1: money that people have given over in good faith. What's
Speaker 1: really interesting to me as a journalist is knowing the
Speaker 1: lawyer that's taken on her case is a very high
Speaker 1: profile lawyer that's affiliated with the labor movement in Australia
Speaker 1: so often takes on high profile cases to embarrass big
Speaker 1: corporations and to set precedents, and so him taking on
Speaker 1: this case really makes me think that they want to
Speaker 1: flush these documents out of Hillsong, and that's obviously really
Speaker 1: exciting for someone like me. I'm Josh Bornstein. I'm the
Speaker 1: head of employment law at Maurice Blackburn. I've represented many
Speaker 1: whistleblowers across public and private sector over many years. Josh
Speaker 1: Bornsteen is representing Natalie Moses. She's the Hillsong whistleblower. It's
Speaker 1: important to remember the court is being asked to decide
Speaker 1: an employment or a fair work case. The court is
Speaker 1: not being asked to investigate Hillsong's finances. It has to
Speaker 1: decide whether Natalie Moses was treated unfairly by her employer, Hillsong.
Speaker 1: The cases about concerns Natalie Moses had about Hillsong and
Speaker 1: its finances, and whether her employment was terminated because she
Speaker 1: raised those concerns or for some other reason. It's the
Speaker 1: first time I've represented a whistleblower in a religious institution.
Speaker 1: I've tended to represent them either in big private sector
Speaker 1: companies or sometimes government bodies, but this is the first
Speaker 1: time I'm in a religious setting that whistleblowers come to
Speaker 1: see me. Natalie Moses, like many whistleblowers, is someone with
Speaker 1: a very strong sense of ethics, strong laural code, who
Speaker 1: is herself quite religious, and who has worked in governance
Speaker 1: and financial management roles, if I can put it that way,
Speaker 1: in Hillsong for some years, like many other whistleblower cases,
Speaker 1: these cases have a very similar trajectory. She has been
Speaker 1: raising concerns with progressive intensity or incrementally increasing the way
Speaker 1: in which she has raised concerns about financial matters, in
Speaker 1: particular governance compliance with corporations law, tax law, charity's law
Speaker 1: within a very complex financial empire that Hillsong is, and
Speaker 1: the matters continue to escalate to the point of having
Speaker 1: open disagreement with very senior executives within Hillsong, and then,
Speaker 1: in another familiar twist, suddenly her access to information was
Speaker 1: cut off and she was under a disciplinary investigation allegedly
Speaker 1: because of accessing documents, and was fearful that she was
Speaker 1: about to be sacked, and that's when she contacted me.
Speaker 1: Whether the Hillsong documents are made public depends on whether
Speaker 1: the case ever comes to court, and many cases like
Speaker 1: this are settled out of court. So Natalie Moses's claims
Speaker 1: have not been tested and Hillsong disputes them. He's Josh
Speaker 1: Bondstein again talking about Miss moses concerns. This is a
Speaker 1: very complicated financial empire with multiple entities across the world,
Speaker 1: some with charitable status, which received tax deductible donations and
Speaker 1: are required to comply with relevant legislative standards in Australia.
Speaker 1: So there are concerns that companies within the Hillsong Empire
Speaker 1: are not complying with corporations law, particularly about requirements that
Speaker 1: the law imposes when you transfer money from Australia overseas.
Speaker 1: There are concerns that Hillsong is encouraging followers to donate
Speaker 1: to them on the basis that their donations will be
Speaker 1: for tax deductible purposes, but then using that money in
Speaker 1: a manner that's not properly tax deductible. There are concerns
Speaker 1: that the I think eighteen entities within the Hillsong Empire
Speaker 1: that have charitable status are not complying with legislative requirements
Speaker 1: for charities in Australia. There's very serious concerns that the
Speaker 1: Charities Regulator, which has commenced and inquiry into some of
Speaker 1: the Hillsong entities, is not being provided with accurate information
Speaker 1: in response to its questions, which is a pretty serious matter.
Speaker 1: There's concerns that the tax laws not being complied with.
Speaker 1: There's concerns about excessive gifts, remuneration, unusual arrangements, about designating
Speaker 1: musicians as pastors of the church, paying them significant salaries
Speaker 1: which is at least in part text deductible at the
Speaker 1: same time as they are receiving sometimes up to millions
Speaker 1: of dollars in royalties. There's just an enormous range of
Speaker 1: complex issues that Natalie Moses has raised in this proceeding.
Speaker 1: Hillsong is robustly defending the case. We invited the church
Speaker 1: to take part in this series and it did not
Speaker 1: take up the offer. Hillsong filed its defense on the
Speaker 1: fourteenth of October twenty twenty two and denies many of
Speaker 1: moses allegations. In its defense, the church denies Natalie moses
Speaker 1: central claim that she was unfairly suspended. Hillsong says she
Speaker 1: breached its I policy and acted outside the scope of
Speaker 1: her role, including by downloading forty thousand documents over a weekend,
Speaker 1: many of them confidential, and then deleting her scent and
Speaker 1: leated items when called into a meeting with the HR
Speaker 1: staff member. And on the accusations about its finances, Hillsong
Speaker 1: denies it deceived the Australian Charities Regulator and It denies
Speaker 1: that miss Moses was ever asked to help lie to
Speaker 1: the regulator. Hillsong says Miss Moses was reassured that if
Speaker 1: any issues were identified as part of the regulators investigation,
Speaker 1: then Hillsong would move to correct the issue proactively. Hillsong
Speaker 1: also denies claims tax free money was used for cash
Speaker 1: gifts to Brian Houston and his family, or that it
Speaker 1: represented to followers that certain donations were tax seductible and
Speaker 1: then use that money for activities that were not tax seductible.
Speaker 1: The church says an independent audit found that the Hillsong
Speaker 1: Foundation Trust has not breached its own trust seed or
Speaker 1: charity legislation. Hillsong also denies that it has not provided
Speaker 1: accurate information to the charity regulator, or that it breached
Speaker 1: tax law by paying musicians as if they were passes
Speaker 1: and therefore of boyd at tax liability, and on the
Speaker 1: accusations that the church breached rules with payments made to
Speaker 1: overseas entities. In its defense, Hillsong says that it's international
Speaker 1: operations did not contravene the external conduct standards which govern
Speaker 1: Howard registered charity has to manage its activities outside of Australia. So,
Speaker 1: just to recap, the bombshell went off in August, only
Speaker 1: five months after Brian Houston's exit in disgrace. So Hillsong
Speaker 1: is still reeling when my contact inside the church gets
Speaker 1: in touch again as the Natalie Moses story breaks. When
Speaker 1: I saw the article, I guess my heart has gone
Speaker 1: straight out to Miss Moses. I feel that she is
Speaker 1: what we in the church used to say, brave women
Speaker 1: run in my family. Well, I'll tell you what I
Speaker 1: think that is a definition of a brave woman. She's
Speaker 1: probably lost her job, she's probably been excluded. It doesn't
Speaker 1: read to me like she was trying to undermine her
Speaker 1: boss and do things against the flow. I feel like
Speaker 1: she was trying to protect the church and she came
Speaker 1: across as being from a place of we need to
Speaker 1: be doing the absolute by the book. And while the
Speaker 1: new leadership of Hillsong is dealing with the Moses case,
Speaker 1: there are still divisions over the way that Brian Houston
Speaker 1: left the church. My contact is critical of the Houston leadership,
Speaker 1: but other people are still loyal to Brian and Bobby.
Speaker 1: I'm still not attending church in person. I'll watch online.
Speaker 1: I've got friends who are in the same camp as me,
Speaker 1: a lot of friends. And then I've got people who
Speaker 1: I'm observing who are the sheep following the Houstons who
Speaker 1: are actually thought better off. So there's this weird dynamic
Speaker 1: of people who are wanting to align with the Houstons
Speaker 1: and not seeing that they were the very biggest problem
Speaker 1: we had. I think there's a huge camp of we
Speaker 1: see exactly what's going on, and we don't know what
Speaker 1: to do with this shit, which is kind of where
Speaker 1: I'm at. And then I think there are these sheeples who,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Brian and Bobby, we love you forever.
Speaker 1: When it first came out, it was like a real
Speaker 1: massive shock, traumatic shock to the system because you believed
Speaker 1: in these people, You supported these people, poured megabucks into
Speaker 1: the church personally, to find out it's all a fass. Really,
Speaker 1: it's all a fass. It's basically a fass. It feels
Speaker 1: like it's been a generating money system for the Houston family.
Speaker 1: Was any of this really about the church? Because I'm
Speaker 1: finding that hard to join those dots. It feels like
Speaker 1: it's all about them. So, yeah, where's the humility and
Speaker 1: the grace in this there's none which tells me that
Speaker 1: all along. Maybe they started off thirty nine years ago
Speaker 1: with the right intentions, but somewhere along the line it
Speaker 1: became about them, their power, their reputation, and yeah, I
Speaker 1: find that conflicting, very conflicting. The man dealing with the
Speaker 1: fallout is past the fil Duel, Hillsong's interim leader. He's
Speaker 1: a very different character from the big Eagle Brian Houston.
Speaker 1: He's more low key and he doesn't have Brian Houston's
Speaker 1: political connections. So there we go. Thank you, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: So we're heading up to a sausage sizzle, which is
Speaker 1: known as democracy sausage. So polling places in Australia are
Speaker 1: almost always schools and traditionally they're allowed to hosts of
Speaker 1: fundraiser for their school at the same time. So for
Speaker 1: a dollar or two you get a sausage on a
Speaker 1: barbecue in a bit of bread. This is federal election
Speaker 1: day in Australia. Hillsong under Brian Houston had friends in
Speaker 1: very high places. Prime Minister Scott Morrison name checked him
Speaker 1: when he was first elected and remained a supporter for
Speaker 1: many years. Scott Morrison didn't attend Hillsong Church but he
Speaker 1: was a good friend of Brian's. In fact, he helped
Speaker 1: him get a photo up at the White House with
Speaker 1: President Trump. It's a very Australian tradition that everyone loves
Speaker 1: doing on the day and it's um yeah, it's part
Speaker 1: of the reason voting is compulsory here, so you've got
Speaker 1: to come along and wait in line for five or
Speaker 1: ten minutes. So it's a perk of the obligation. I suppose, okay,
Speaker 1: here you go, and as it turns out, there's a
Speaker 1: spare half, so if you give it back to me,
Speaker 1: pop that. I don't know how we ended up with spirit.
Speaker 1: Scott Morrison lost this election and the new government has
Speaker 1: announced inquiries into a number of projects with links to Hillsinger. Today,
Speaker 1: yet I'm a I'm a vegetarian, so it's not really
Speaker 1: my thing. But the most serious test yet for Brian
Speaker 1: Houston personally is coming. It links back to his past
Speaker 1: and to his late father, Frank Houston. Do you wish
Speaker 1: to take the oath or the affirmation? Could you raise
Speaker 1: the Bible in your right hand please and repeat after me.
Speaker 1: I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God
Speaker 1: that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall
Speaker 1: give in this Royal Commission, In this Royal Commission shall
Speaker 1: be the truth. Shall be the truth, the whole truth,
Speaker 1: the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing
Speaker 1: but the truth. This is Brian Houston giving evidence to
Speaker 1: a public inquiry known as a Royal Commission hearing in
Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen. It's looking into allegations of child
Speaker 1: abuse and you've prepared a statement for the Royal Commission,
Speaker 1: dated the twenty eighth of September twenty fourteen. Yes, are
Speaker 1: there any changes you wish to make that state? Do
Speaker 1: you say it truly could correct for us of your knowledge? Yes,
Speaker 1: I tender the statement eighteen zero zero nine. The hearing
Speaker 1: her that allegations emerged in nineteen ninety nine that Frank
Speaker 1: Houston sexually abused a child in the nineteen seventies. Brian
Speaker 1: Houston was the National President of the Assemblies of God
Speaker 1: in Australia at the time, a powerful organization that oversaw
Speaker 1: many churches in Australia, including Hillsong. Brian Houston confronted his father,
Speaker 1: who confessed to the abuse. So my father retired in
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety nine from senior pastor role at the time,
Speaker 1: it seemed very rushed that he suddenly asked me if
Speaker 1: I would take on the church. And now with hindsight,
Speaker 1: I think we know some of the reasons why that is.
Speaker 1: After hearing Brian Houston's evidence, the commissioners decided that he
Speaker 1: and the National Executive of Assemblies of God did not
Speaker 1: refer the allegations against Frank Houston to police. They decided
Speaker 1: that Brian had a conflict of interests. He has always
Speaker 1: argued that the victim did not want the abuse reported
Speaker 1: to police. After a two year investigation, in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: police charged Brian Houston with concealing child abuse. Brian Houston
Speaker 1: has always vehemently denied the charges. It all seems a
Speaker 1: long way from the church that Naomi became a part
Speaker 1: of in Boston, and these shadows from the past sometimes
Speaker 1: seem remote to Hillsong followers in Australia today. But what
Speaker 1: we have to remember is this case is part of
Speaker 1: a much bigger picture. It's part of a massive undertaking
Speaker 1: in Australia to examine abuses of the past and try
Speaker 1: to bring some sort of justice. It's so interesting to
Speaker 1: hear your first impressions of Brian because coming from Australia,
Speaker 1: it was always Brian Houston's Hillsong, So it's interesting to
Speaker 1: hear that in America it wasn't so much to do
Speaker 1: with the Houston family. I'm really interested. I guess that.
Speaker 1: You know, did you sort of look into Hillsong at
Speaker 1: all before you joined or was it just getting caught
Speaker 1: up in the way that it made you feel once
Speaker 1: you were in that room and finding a new home
Speaker 1: as they call it. No, I did not look into
Speaker 1: it beforehand, because yes, I did get caught up in
Speaker 1: the feel and the look of it. I knew that
Speaker 1: Hillsong had come from Australia, but that was pretty much it.
Speaker 1: I didn't really care too much to look deeper. When
Speaker 1: I first heard of Brian and heard him speak at
Speaker 1: Hillsong Phoenix in the recording, it kind of seemed weird
Speaker 1: to me, but I felt like, Okay, well, if I
Speaker 1: attend a local church, I won't hear from him much.
Speaker 1: And here and there, probably once a year we would
Speaker 1: get a recording of Brian speaking. And to be completely
Speaker 1: even more honest and upfront, I really didn't sit in
Speaker 1: to listen to the messages because it was always focused
Speaker 1: on the local church and on the East Coast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's something I hear all the time. It was so
Speaker 1: much about those interpersonal relationships, and I always wonder how
Speaker 1: it felt just wheeling a TV screen out. That's so impersonal.
Speaker 1: But I guess I'm wondering, how did you feel when
Speaker 1: you started finding out all the stuff about Brian and
Speaker 1: his father, that the guy who's the head of the
Speaker 1: church had all of this stuff in his background. I
Speaker 1: had heard about it briefly, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: within the church and leaders and pastors kept saying like
Speaker 1: they would be frustrating, like again, they're bringing this up again,
Speaker 1: Like I thought he had already addressed this. So when
Speaker 1: I saw that, for me, it was like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is interesting. I'm not sure what's happening. I started looking
Speaker 1: into it a little bit more, and to be completely honest,
Speaker 1: I don't find that surprising because I grew up in church.
Speaker 1: My dad was a pastor, my uncles are pastors, close
Speaker 1: family friends or pastors, and we saw a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I unfortunately saw a lot of sexual misconduct and sexual
Speaker 1: assault and pedophilia and never saw it come to a
Speaker 1: legal matter. Because the church is really good at hiding it.
Speaker 1: Now that I've been in therapy and now that I've
Speaker 1: been learning more and as you know better, you do better.
Speaker 1: I've been reaching out to some people and asking them
Speaker 1: how are actually doing and if they want to come forward,
Speaker 1: and that they have my full support, Like I want
Speaker 1: to be on the better side now of being able
Speaker 1: to share those because when I heard about them, I
Speaker 1: was a kid. I couldn't see anything and I didn't
Speaker 1: have any authority. But now as an adult, I want
Speaker 1: to be part of that change. Since my trip to Sydney,
Speaker 1: I've discovered that Brian and Bobby Houston's Bondie property has
Speaker 1: been sold. Brian Houston has been preaching in the United
Speaker 1: States and Australia, and he's contradicted a lot of the
Speaker 1: Hillsong narrative around his departure. He says I didn't resign
Speaker 1: because of mistakes I'd made, but because Hillsong made my
Speaker 1: position untenable, and he says details of his mistakes were
Speaker 1: made public so people's imaginations ran wild, but his perspective
Speaker 1: wasn't reflected by the church. Brian Houston also denies that
Speaker 1: he's an alcoholic or that he has a problem with
Speaker 1: prescription drugs, and in the end he comes out fighting,
Speaker 1: saying I'm flawed, I've been humbled, but I'm not living
Speaker 1: in disgrace and my head is held high. In the
Speaker 1: next episode of False Prophets, it's time to share more
Speaker 1: of my personal story. It's all about what I wish
Speaker 1: I would have known about Hillsong and sexuality before I
Speaker 1: got in so deep. I thought I'd found a place
Speaker 1: that was welcoming and affirming, but that was far from
Speaker 1: the truth, and it cost me so much harm. And
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. A story from Hillsong's past
Speaker 1: is still causing pain today.