WEBVTT - The House of Houston 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:08.680 So the first time I heard and saw Brian Houston, 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:12.360 I was in Hillsong, Phoenix for the first time, and 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.120 when it came time for the sermon to happen, they 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:21.040 dragged a screen onto the stage in Phoenix and they 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.360 started playing a recording of Brian speaking, and I remember 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.200 trying to understand what he was saying because his accent 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:34.000 was so thick that I was just like my face 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:39.040 was like frowning, like not pitting everything together. And when 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.040 I started to finally understand what he was saying, I 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.519 started to realize that he wasn't that great of a preacher. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.040 It was more of a motivational speech, and he said 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.400 he was going to give us a list on how 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.200 to be a better person, for example, and he never 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.880 finished the list. He only got to the first point. 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.400 So it was hilarious to me the fact that this man, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.040 who is like, quote unquote the big eagle within Hillsong 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.280 at the time, didn't preach and wasn't charismatic in comparison 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:16.080 to other people. So when I see him, and from 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.840 that experience moving forward, I quickly knew that he was 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.920 just a white man, a white heterosexual man who got 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.039 lucky to have the platform. He did because of his father, obviously, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.319 but now seeing his downfall and him being removed from 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.160 Hillsong and the board, it seems to me like his 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:39.240 luck has run out. You're listening to false prophets Hillsong 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.520 the story of a mega church and its followers. I 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.600 am no m Audibe and I used to be a 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.520 part of Hillsong, but I left and now I'm telling 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.480 my story. I suppose his luck has run out in 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.880 a way. And this is journalist l Hardy getting the 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.800 inside story that Hillsong didn't want to tell, but just 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.480 saying his houses in Sydney, He's certainly still living a 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.040 very charmed and blessed life. He's exceptionally wealthy. He has 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.560 a beautiful mansion out in the hills. He has an 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.880 apartment on Bondai Beach, probably the best real estate in Australia. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.640 He's still jetting around the world, visiting friends in Europe 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.720 and the United States. So I guess, you know, public 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.880 humiliation sounds like a pretty horrible thing to go through, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:30.480 but in terms of his general circumstances, he's still got 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.080 a lot of luck on his side. I've recently returned 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.600 to my hometown of Sydney to take a closer look 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:42.840 at the Houston lifestyle. We're on our way to Brian 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.200 and Bobby Houston's house. It's in the upmarket suburb of 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:52.399 glen Haven, about fifteen minutes from Hillsong's headquarters. It's a 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:57.519 very nice, manicured suburb, but it's quiet. It's there's almost 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.960 an eeriness out here. There's no kids riding there by, 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:05.320 acts around. Feels a bit walled off and maybe that's 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.760 why the Houston's like it. It's only a few miles 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.280 from the school hall where Hillsong was started by Brian 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.080 and Bobby in the nineteen eighties with just a few followers, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.000 but it's a world away from this lifestyle and wealth. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.200 It's yeah, a little leafy, could sac there's some sort 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.440 of bushland it's looking over, but they're quite nice. Say 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.480 they're big houses. They're modern houses there. I think the 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.360 word is McMansions, but I'm not sure if that's too disparaging. 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.400 You know, some of the houses have letters spelt out 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.360 instead of the numbers. Brian's come a long way. He 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.840 was born in New Zealand and both his parents were 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.600 in the Salvation Army. His father Frank was a preacher too. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.120 Lots of beautiful trees, but it's it certainly as a 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.760 well healed area and a private area, to the point 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:53.760 where I wonder, if you know, we do another lap 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.080 or two, that someone might come out and take down 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.440 our number plate. But one of their children, that their 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.720 younger stood, Laura, lives nearby here, so we're going to 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.560 go check out her place quickly as well. Laura, her 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.880 husband Peter, and her brothers Benjamin and Joel are all 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:12.600 part of the Hillsong Empire. It's a family affair. So 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:20.839 we're coming up to Ryan and Bobby Houston's house. Your 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.560 destination is on the left. I think it's just one 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.640 of here. She said, it's a huge gate. Does that 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.279 look like a huge gate to you? This looks like 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:41.680 a pretty big gate, huge brick settin better spikes. Wow, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:48.360 it does look pretty grand house fit for a pre 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:54.719 checking and you can enjoy the lifestyle too, because the 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.400 house is now for sale. This is what the sales 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.080 pitch says. No expense has been bad and the sensational 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:06.000 property designed for a spectacular entertainer's lifestyle. For about three 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.880 million US dollars. All this can be yours, including walk 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.800 in wardrobes, a pool, and a hot top. We're out 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.520 the front of Brian and Bobby's house. Oh fuck, is 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:31.520 a coupling up than well? Some of the Houstons are 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.640 checking out me and my producer Sharon. But it's okay. 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:45.520 We're on public property, just hanging there. Are they going 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:55.880 checking out? Should check us out? Hey there we're diad 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:05.200 a camera. We're just recording some audio. Yeah, for a podcast. Okay, 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.680 we're having a chat to you guys. We'll have an 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.960 advo chat to you guys if you want to pardon. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:21.520 She's are the best. That's Laura Peter. Yeah, he's still 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:27.159 on the board. Fuck, I reckon. I wonder if one 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:28.839 of the neighbors said something or how did they know 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.240 when were here? They saw it walking, but they might 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.200 have a camera. Sorry, my heart's going every miles an 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.120 hour and now yeah, no, no no, no, it's just you 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:45.000 know which Yeah, Um, do you see the look? I 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:46.640 don't know if you saw the look on Laura's face, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.840 but she did. She looked filthy, did she? Yeah? She 0:06:50.920 --> 0:07:07.080 was not happy. We just had a bit of a 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.360 confrontation with one of their children. They reverse the car out. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.400 It was Laura and Peter. Laura's their their youngest stare 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.840 down and they had their kids in the car, and 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.600 they reversed up and they asked us what we were 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:21.680 doing here and why we had cameras and if we 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.520 were a recording. Yeah, we just just said that we 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.280 would love to speak to them. That they didn't seem 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:31.160 interested and drove off. So, yeah, that was a bit 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.000 of an interesting experience when you've been writing about people. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.480 I'd love for them to speak with me, but I 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:44.920 don't think that they ever will because there's a Norwestern 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.040 business work. Okay, time to head off to hills On 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.400 Church and there are a few to choose from in Sydney. 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.400 We're going to an inner city one in the Waterloo area. 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.920 Write out the Century Circuit. I had a piece of 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.560 newspaper this morning with some leaked emails from the Houston 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.720 family when all of the problems are going down with 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:11.000 Brian being forced to resign back in March twenty two, 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.120 and it's so interesting how much of this stuff is 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.320 circulating in the church, and sources of mine inside and 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.480 formerly of the church. We're already messaging me at nine 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.840 o'clock this morning. It's really interesting to see just how 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.640 much this stuff spreads like wildfire, that there are a 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.160 lot of people that just really want the Houstons to 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.440 be brought back to earth. The story was about leaked 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.920 emails from two of the Houston children, Benjamin and Laura. 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.360 They sent the board emails on March twenty and they're 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.720 very emotional and it really I think what they really show, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.960 which is most interesting to me, is that the Houstons 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.200 consider the church their church. It's the family firm. They 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.680 think that they built it from the ground up. Whereas 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.720 if you speak to a lot of current and former 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.240 Hills members, they say, no, no, no no, this is our church. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.000 It's a community asset. We built this with our labor, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.959 with our people, with our love, with our commitment. And 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.520 that's really at the heart of the power struggle at 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.080 the moment in the church is people saying that the 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.640 Houstons need to recognize that, you know, they were obviously 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.800 a huge part of its success and its growth, but 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.400 it's time for them to go. And I don't think 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:24.560 that any of the children certainly are seen as natural 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.400 leaders or heirs to the church. And Brian did not 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.080 have a succession plan in place. He thought he had 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.800 another good ten years or so. He's sixty seven now, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.920 he's a very fit guy and he does not want 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:38.960 to give up control. So I certainly think that we're 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:40.400 going to be seeing this playing out for a long 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.800 time to come. This is a time of real jeopardy 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.520 for Hillsong. Sure it's face scandals before, but this time 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.840 it's brought down the top guy, Brian Houston, has been 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:59.320 forced out after an investigation into inappropriate behavior towards two women. Now, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.280 for many people in Australia, Brian Houston was Hillsong and 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.439 while the Houston's plan their next move, the Hillsong board 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.560 installs an interim leader and argues about how to protect 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:16.360 the church and followers. Let's find out how they're feeling. Right, 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:23.920 then your destination will be on the least. Were at 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:28.240 Hillsong Waterloo, which is the city campus, and it's Sunday 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.680 morning and a lot of young, happy people are walking 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.560 out of the church. So we thought we'd got to 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.600 a few of them and have a word. I we're 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.760 just making a podcast about the church and we'd sort 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.520 of want to tell both sides. So we're just wondering 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:47.200 a few guys ago, no oay to be honest, that's 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:48.959 the kind of response I think we're going to get. 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.719 You just don't get many people who still go to 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.600 Hillsong talking about it. There's certainly a perception there's been 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.640 fed to them for many years that the media is 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.600 always telling the wrong story and he has always been 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.160 against the church and the Houstons, and that the media 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.640 only cares about the money. We're just wondering us about 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:08.959 the church, and we're trying to tell both sides. So 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:10.760 we just want to know what you love about your 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:19.480 church everything? Sorry, but what's everything community? I attribute everything 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.920 good in my life to this church. I've been born 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.760 in the church. I've been there since I was a 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.160 little kid, and I love it. It's well all my 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.120 friends are some of my families. I love worship, I 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.199 love the community. I love going to dinner Sunday night 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.160 with church. I love being able to lead kids on 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.640 their journey on Fridays as a youth leader. It's one 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.240 of the most fulfilling things in the Taiwer. You come 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.000 here and you might be broken, you might not feel 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.880 like you have a place in this crazy world. You 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.800 come here and everyone's really welcoming. They welcome you with 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.440 open arms. They don't judge you for you know, what 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.520 you've done. Do you feel that her son gets a 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.880 bit of a rough ride in the media. Church is 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.719 not a place of perfect people at all, Like, I 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.120 don't think anyone's claiming that or you know, and they 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:12.920 think like we're just imperfect people. Yeah. I think the 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.280 main thing is that other community is fantastic. Everyone's you know, 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.040 loves on each other and obviously Christians, and so we 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.720 find it's a really good place to worship, full of 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:28.520 authenticity and genuine people. A people use the word community 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.080 a lot, and I'm really interested in that concept of 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.320 what that means in relation to the church. Well, I think, well, 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.080 this is a good example. This is Keith. We met 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.000 him at church and we see each other every week 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.720 and we basically hang out not just that church for us, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.440 at a church as well. So we're talking about community, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.640 we're talking about that sense of family. So yeah, that's 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.120 gonna say. It does really feel like family because we 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.080 have so many new people coming here all the time, 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.760 and we'll welcome a lot of new people and it's 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.240 just an ever growing community and family. It's something that's 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.480 really different. It's just grow so much so and we'll 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.920 welcome everyone from the new bonds to like people who 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.120 are in their eighties or hundreds or whatever. So yeah, 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.600 we're really happy to have everyone here. Just become part 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.240 of this awesome family. Hilson has been given a bit 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.280 of a rough trott media lately. How do you guys 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.160 feel about that. It's not really lately, It's been for 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.760 as long as I've known living in Sydney. I think 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.920 the way that we navigates we have a personal experience 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.840 of hell Song and we don't It's not like based 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.280 on what people have said or what we've read. It's 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.000 actually our own personal experience and nothing can really trump that. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:44.520 The media. Yeah, yeah, it's sometimes one person's perspective. And 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.280 we have experienced the leadership here. We know personally some 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.920 of the leaders and the pastors and we've been mentored 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.480 by them and we absolutely adore them. And a lot 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.920 of it comes down to our faith and our personal 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.800 walk with God, and that's the lens that we use 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.800 to view things like scrutiny and stuff. In the church. 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.920 Everything's being shaken, but this is I think a small 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.480 part of what's in the long term. So we believe 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.559 that we're just gonna continue to grow, continue to do 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:19.640 what we need to do. I really enjoyed speaking to 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.320 Keith and his friends just now because for me, they're 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.200 really typical Hillsong is. They're aware of the issues that 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.360 they're not necessarily shying away from them, but they're able 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.560 to square it by saying that humans are imperfect, that 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.480 we're all sinners before God, that God is the only 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.160 one that's perfect. Ultimately, what we seem to keep coming 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.200 back to why people are saying in the church is 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.000 they just like the sense of community. You'll still find 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.640 a lot of people now saying, well, it's our church, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.360 it's not the Houston's Church. A lot of people Brian 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.080 is a figure that's on the TV. Sometimes their connection 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:54.040 is much more deep and real within the church. The 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.320 notable thing from when I went inside is how much 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.560 the attendances have dropped from when I was there in January. 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.880 Still very much the same crowd representative of the local area, 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.160 lots of young people, but attendances would be down at 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.600 least half or two thirds on the amount of people 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.080 that I saw in January. Pretty significant. It's difficult to 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.920 say for sure, but considering I've been told that attendances 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.640 are down at a lot of the places. I think 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.160 it's pretty safe to assume that attendances are down here, 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.520 and the reason is the scandal, the embarrassment. Maybe some 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.480 people are just finding new churches. Hillsong has a lot 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.640 of imitators and sometimes it's just easier to go to 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:32.600 a different church. Just to give you a sense of 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.520 the term oil that went on behind the scenes, there 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.440 were real divisions about whether Brian Houston should be forced 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.320 out of the church he found it. He has loyal 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.200 supporters as well as critics. I've seen a letter that 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.640 Hillsong's hate of people and development. John Mays wrote to 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.280 the board just before Brian was sacked. He described Brian 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.880 as a man who saw himself as beyond disciplinary boundaries 0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:00.960 and normal societal expectations. He dismissed an investigation into Brian's 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.920 behavior as dribble. Finally, he calls on the board to 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.680 consider removing Brian permanently from his position in Hillsong along 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:13.400 with his wife. Within days that happens, No wonder. Security 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:19.680 guards outside the church are feeling nervous about journalists. Hey, hey, 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.080 how are you going to get them on the team. Yeah, 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.840 I heard that you're doing there some sort of reporting. 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.040 They're just doing box pops style. That's just as people 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.800 that's what they think she's doing. She's doing a voice 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.280 her and then we ask people what they've seen. So yeah, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:41.400 there's no filming. No, no, they're just audio. Yeah, just audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.080 thank you. Isaac from the venue team came out. They 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.280 have a lot of volunteers in different positions, and they 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.000 certainly have a production and venue teams and there he 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.640 certainly looks like the head of security and the security 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.280 gardment and told him that I had to look around. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.560 They clearly don't want us in there. And you know, 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.360 we're outside in public property, so that's fine. And they 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.560 just said that we can't take photos inside because they 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.800 are children around. But yeah, they're clearly not chilled by 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.600 us being here. A lot of Hillsong insiders won't talk publicly, 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.200 but one is so angry about the investigation into Brian 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.520 that she decided to speak out. Details of his behavior 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.679 are pretty sketchy. The most recent incident centers on forty 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.359 minutes Brian spent in a woman's hotel room. He says 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.320 he can't remember what happened, but he does say that 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:37.359 he'd been taking pills and booze. My contact feels fobbed 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.320 off by the church, but talking publicly would cause a 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.600 rift in the community and in her family, so her 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.040 words are spoken by an actor. It kind of brought 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.920 a whole level of shock into learning who these people 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.280 really are. And maybe this is the tip of the 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.440 iceberg of what we've been fed for copious amounts of years. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.560 So when all this other stuff came out, it was like, ah, okay, 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.399 it all brings it back to what's this narcissist behavior 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.880 the whole time? And I look back, I'm like, literally 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.800 in horror. It was great at the beginning, but when 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.919 did it turn from being about people to about you 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.680 and your needs being met and your fame and your 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.000 celebrity status. And I think what it's turned into is, Yeah, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:28.680 it's disgusting, disgusting. I don't think they will come back 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:32.040 to Hillsong Church as it is. I think they will 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:37.080 relaunch their careers somehow. If they ever come back, I'm 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:46.399 leaving because then it's all a joke. Monday Beach is 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:52.360 the iconic picture of Sydney. It's sunshine, beautiful people, everyone's 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.399 in in the ocean, surfing, going for a run with 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.760 their dog along the promenades, people doing yoga and meditating, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.080 sitting outdoors at the cafes. It's a real place to 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.480 see and be seeing and it's the lifestyle capital of Sydney. 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.720 And needless to say, property here is pretty expensive. I've 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.000 come to Bondai because it's the second home of Brian 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.159 and Bobby Houston, and it's kind of emblematic of everything 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.240 that's gone wrong with the church. Their apartment is in 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.480 a prime real estate position, right on the south end 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:25.840 of the beach. They'd probably be able to throw from 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.120 their curtains and watch the beach each morning. The property's 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.760 worth around two million US and for a second home, 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.080 that's quite a lot of money. And it's really a 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.320 long way from what the church started out as and 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.199 from what people who have given so much to the 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.200 church over the years feel. They felt that they're building 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.760 a community, that they're building a place to do good 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.080 in the world. They are absolute mega celebrities within the 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.160 Christian pastor circle, particularly in the US, because they change 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.159 the business model. They made it okay to be this brand, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.880 and so many preachers and churches around the world wanted 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.640 to to emulate that. A number of them brought into 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.680 the Hillsong umbrella where they give you a five percent 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.159 of all their profits to the overarching Hillsong Church to 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.760 get the branding, to get the training to be more 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.280 like Brian and Bobby. So even in parts of Africa 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.600 and South America, whether a Hillsong branches now, they're throwing 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.400 huge numbers of congregants because people feel as though they're 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.560 part of something bigger. It's not just the small local church. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.200 They felt as though they were part of a big 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.120 global brand. And Brian and Bobby have always been the happy, friendly, 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:33.240 good looking, suave faces of US. Dramatic allegations have been 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.840 leveled tonight against Hillsong. The mega church is accused of 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.080 breaking Australian law by sending millions of dollars overseas and 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.280 then august rating an elaborate cover up. On August the twelfth, 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.840 a statement of claim was filed in the courts in 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:52.040 Australia with an employee of Hillsong's finance department. And this 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.120 is just dynamite. The one thing that anyone that's looked 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.560 into Hillsong over the last ten twenty years has been 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.640 trying to find out is how much money is there 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.320 and where's it going? And this is the closest that 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:08.640 we've gotten yet to looking at Hillsong's books. The employee 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.800 made a number of complaints about the way that they 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.399 were handling transferring money between different Hillsong entities and different 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.679 Hillsong countries, and this employee is said to have downloaded 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:26.359 some forty thousand documents. Court documents claim church leaders used 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.720 tax free money for large cash gifts to Hillsong's founder 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.920 and his family. So some of the other interesting things 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:35.960 that have come out of it, firstly the sums of 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.399 money that are being moved around, and this is charity 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.760 money that people have given over in good faith. What's 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.080 really interesting to me as a journalist is knowing the 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.440 lawyer that's taken on her case is a very high 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.600 profile lawyer that's affiliated with the labor movement in Australia 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.880 so often takes on high profile cases to embarrass big 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.879 corporations and to set precedents, and so him taking on 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.119 this case really makes me think that they want to 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.440 flush these documents out of Hillsong, and that's obviously really 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.159 exciting for someone like me. I'm Josh Bornstein. I'm the 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.720 head of employment law at Maurice Blackburn. I've represented many 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:18.240 whistleblowers across public and private sector over many years. Josh 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:23.480 Bornsteen is representing Natalie Moses. She's the Hillsong whistleblower. It's 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.160 important to remember the court is being asked to decide 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.560 an employment or a fair work case. The court is 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.040 not being asked to investigate Hillsong's finances. It has to 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.400 decide whether Natalie Moses was treated unfairly by her employer, Hillsong. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.439 The cases about concerns Natalie Moses had about Hillsong and 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:45.399 its finances, and whether her employment was terminated because she 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.960 raised those concerns or for some other reason. It's the 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.000 first time I've represented a whistleblower in a religious institution. 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.800 I've tended to represent them either in big private sector 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.760 companies or sometimes government bodies, but this is the first 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.520 time I'm in a religious setting that whistleblowers come to 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:07.480 see me. Natalie Moses, like many whistleblowers, is someone with 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:11.359 a very strong sense of ethics, strong laural code, who 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.159 is herself quite religious, and who has worked in governance 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:17.960 and financial management roles, if I can put it that way, 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.399 in Hillsong for some years, like many other whistleblower cases, 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:27.080 these cases have a very similar trajectory. She has been 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:33.240 raising concerns with progressive intensity or incrementally increasing the way 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.480 in which she has raised concerns about financial matters, in 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:43.320 particular governance compliance with corporations law, tax law, charity's law 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:48.760 within a very complex financial empire that Hillsong is, and 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:53.480 the matters continue to escalate to the point of having 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:58.240 open disagreement with very senior executives within Hillsong, and then, 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:04.000 in another familiar twist, suddenly her access to information was 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:09.400 cut off and she was under a disciplinary investigation allegedly 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.879 because of accessing documents, and was fearful that she was 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:18.240 about to be sacked, and that's when she contacted me. 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.880 Whether the Hillsong documents are made public depends on whether 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:26.800 the case ever comes to court, and many cases like 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:30.040 this are settled out of court. So Natalie Moses's claims 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.680 have not been tested and Hillsong disputes them. He's Josh 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.520 Bondstein again talking about Miss moses concerns. This is a 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:43.399 very complicated financial empire with multiple entities across the world, 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:48.760 some with charitable status, which received tax deductible donations and 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:54.840 are required to comply with relevant legislative standards in Australia. 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:59.760 So there are concerns that companies within the Hillsong Empire 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:05.600