1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: So the first time I heard and saw Brian Houston, 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: I was in Hillsong, Phoenix for the first time, and 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: when it came time for the sermon to happen, they 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: dragged a screen onto the stage in Phoenix and they 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: started playing a recording of Brian speaking, and I remember 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: trying to understand what he was saying because his accent 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: was so thick that I was just like my face 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: was like frowning, like not pitting everything together. And when 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: I started to finally understand what he was saying, I 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: started to realize that he wasn't that great of a preacher. 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: It was more of a motivational speech, and he said 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: he was going to give us a list on how 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: to be a better person, for example, and he never 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: finished the list. He only got to the first point. 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: So it was hilarious to me the fact that this man, 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: who is like, quote unquote the big eagle within Hillsong 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: at the time, didn't preach and wasn't charismatic in comparison 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: to other people. So when I see him, and from 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: that experience moving forward, I quickly knew that he was 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: just a white man, a white heterosexual man who got 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: lucky to have the platform. He did because of his father, obviously, 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: but now seeing his downfall and him being removed from 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Hillsong and the board, it seems to me like his 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: luck has run out. You're listening to false prophets Hillsong 25 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: the story of a mega church and its followers. I 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: am no m Audibe and I used to be a 27 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: part of Hillsong, but I left and now I'm telling 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: my story. I suppose his luck has run out in 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: a way. And this is journalist l Hardy getting the 30 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: inside story that Hillsong didn't want to tell, but just 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: saying his houses in Sydney, He's certainly still living a 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: very charmed and blessed life. He's exceptionally wealthy. He has 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: a beautiful mansion out in the hills. He has an 34 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: apartment on Bondai Beach, probably the best real estate in Australia. 35 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: He's still jetting around the world, visiting friends in Europe 36 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: and the United States. So I guess, you know, public 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: humiliation sounds like a pretty horrible thing to go through, 38 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: but in terms of his general circumstances, he's still got 39 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: a lot of luck on his side. I've recently returned 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: to my hometown of Sydney to take a closer look 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: at the Houston lifestyle. We're on our way to Brian 42 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: and Bobby Houston's house. It's in the upmarket suburb of 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: glen Haven, about fifteen minutes from Hillsong's headquarters. It's a 44 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: very nice, manicured suburb, but it's quiet. It's there's almost 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: an eeriness out here. There's no kids riding there by, 46 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: acts around. Feels a bit walled off and maybe that's 47 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: why the Houston's like it. It's only a few miles 48 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: from the school hall where Hillsong was started by Brian 49 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: and Bobby in the nineteen eighties with just a few followers, 50 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: but it's a world away from this lifestyle and wealth. 51 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: It's yeah, a little leafy, could sac there's some sort 52 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: of bushland it's looking over, but they're quite nice. Say 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: they're big houses. They're modern houses there. I think the 54 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: word is McMansions, but I'm not sure if that's too disparaging. 55 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: You know, some of the houses have letters spelt out 56 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: instead of the numbers. Brian's come a long way. He 57 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: was born in New Zealand and both his parents were 58 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: in the Salvation Army. His father Frank was a preacher too. 59 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: Lots of beautiful trees, but it's it certainly as a 60 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: well healed area and a private area, to the point 61 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: where I wonder, if you know, we do another lap 62 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: or two, that someone might come out and take down 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: our number plate. But one of their children, that their 64 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: younger stood, Laura, lives nearby here, so we're going to 65 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: go check out her place quickly as well. Laura, her 66 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: husband Peter, and her brothers Benjamin and Joel are all 67 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: part of the Hillsong Empire. It's a family affair. So 68 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: we're coming up to Ryan and Bobby Houston's house. Your 69 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: destination is on the left. I think it's just one 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: of here. She said, it's a huge gate. Does that 71 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: look like a huge gate to you? This looks like 72 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: a pretty big gate, huge brick settin better spikes. Wow, 73 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: it does look pretty grand house fit for a pre 74 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: checking and you can enjoy the lifestyle too, because the 75 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: house is now for sale. This is what the sales 76 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: pitch says. No expense has been bad and the sensational 77 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: property designed for a spectacular entertainer's lifestyle. For about three 78 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: million US dollars. All this can be yours, including walk 79 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: in wardrobes, a pool, and a hot top. We're out 80 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: the front of Brian and Bobby's house. Oh fuck, is 81 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: a coupling up than well? Some of the Houstons are 82 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: checking out me and my producer Sharon. But it's okay. 83 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: We're on public property, just hanging there. Are they going 84 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: checking out? Should check us out? Hey there we're diad 85 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: a camera. We're just recording some audio. Yeah, for a podcast. Okay, 86 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: we're having a chat to you guys. We'll have an 87 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: advo chat to you guys if you want to pardon. 88 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: She's are the best. That's Laura Peter. Yeah, he's still 89 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: on the board. Fuck, I reckon. I wonder if one 90 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: of the neighbors said something or how did they know 91 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: when were here? They saw it walking, but they might 92 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: have a camera. Sorry, my heart's going every miles an 93 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: hour and now yeah, no, no no, no, it's just you 94 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: know which Yeah, Um, do you see the look? I 95 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you saw the look on Laura's face, 96 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: but she did. She looked filthy, did she? Yeah? She 97 00:06:50,920 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: was not happy. We just had a bit of a 98 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: confrontation with one of their children. They reverse the car out. 99 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: It was Laura and Peter. Laura's their their youngest stare 100 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: down and they had their kids in the car, and 101 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: they reversed up and they asked us what we were 102 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: doing here and why we had cameras and if we 103 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: were a recording. Yeah, we just just said that we 104 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: would love to speak to them. That they didn't seem 105 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: interested and drove off. So, yeah, that was a bit 106 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: of an interesting experience when you've been writing about people. 107 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: I'd love for them to speak with me, but I 108 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: don't think that they ever will because there's a Norwestern 109 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: business work. Okay, time to head off to hills On 110 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Church and there are a few to choose from in Sydney. 111 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: We're going to an inner city one in the Waterloo area. 112 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: Write out the Century Circuit. I had a piece of 113 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: newspaper this morning with some leaked emails from the Houston 114 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: family when all of the problems are going down with 115 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: Brian being forced to resign back in March twenty two, 116 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: and it's so interesting how much of this stuff is 117 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: circulating in the church, and sources of mine inside and 118 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: formerly of the church. We're already messaging me at nine 119 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: o'clock this morning. It's really interesting to see just how 120 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: much this stuff spreads like wildfire, that there are a 121 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: lot of people that just really want the Houstons to 122 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: be brought back to earth. The story was about leaked 123 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: emails from two of the Houston children, Benjamin and Laura. 124 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: They sent the board emails on March twenty and they're 125 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: very emotional and it really I think what they really show, 126 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: which is most interesting to me, is that the Houstons 127 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: consider the church their church. It's the family firm. They 128 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: think that they built it from the ground up. Whereas 129 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: if you speak to a lot of current and former 130 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: Hills members, they say, no, no, no no, this is our church. 131 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: It's a community asset. We built this with our labor, 132 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: with our people, with our love, with our commitment. And 133 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: that's really at the heart of the power struggle at 134 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: the moment in the church is people saying that the 135 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: Houstons need to recognize that, you know, they were obviously 136 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: a huge part of its success and its growth, but 137 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: it's time for them to go. And I don't think 138 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: that any of the children certainly are seen as natural 139 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: leaders or heirs to the church. And Brian did not 140 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: have a succession plan in place. He thought he had 141 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: another good ten years or so. He's sixty seven now, 142 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: he's a very fit guy and he does not want 143 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: to give up control. So I certainly think that we're 144 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: going to be seeing this playing out for a long 145 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: time to come. This is a time of real jeopardy 146 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: for Hillsong. Sure it's face scandals before, but this time 147 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: it's brought down the top guy, Brian Houston, has been 148 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: forced out after an investigation into inappropriate behavior towards two women. Now, 149 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: for many people in Australia, Brian Houston was Hillsong and 150 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: while the Houston's plan their next move, the Hillsong board 151 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: installs an interim leader and argues about how to protect 152 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: the church and followers. Let's find out how they're feeling. Right, 153 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: then your destination will be on the least. Were at 154 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: Hillsong Waterloo, which is the city campus, and it's Sunday 155 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: morning and a lot of young, happy people are walking 156 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: out of the church. So we thought we'd got to 157 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: a few of them and have a word. I we're 158 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: just making a podcast about the church and we'd sort 159 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: of want to tell both sides. So we're just wondering 160 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: a few guys ago, no oay to be honest, that's 161 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: the kind of response I think we're going to get. 162 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: You just don't get many people who still go to 163 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Hillsong talking about it. There's certainly a perception there's been 164 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: fed to them for many years that the media is 165 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: always telling the wrong story and he has always been 166 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: against the church and the Houstons, and that the media 167 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: only cares about the money. We're just wondering us about 168 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: the church, and we're trying to tell both sides. So 169 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: we just want to know what you love about your 170 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: church everything? Sorry, but what's everything community? I attribute everything 171 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: good in my life to this church. I've been born 172 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: in the church. I've been there since I was a 173 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: little kid, and I love it. It's well all my 174 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: friends are some of my families. I love worship, I 175 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: love the community. I love going to dinner Sunday night 176 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: with church. I love being able to lead kids on 177 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: their journey on Fridays as a youth leader. It's one 178 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: of the most fulfilling things in the Taiwer. You come 179 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: here and you might be broken, you might not feel 180 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: like you have a place in this crazy world. You 181 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: come here and everyone's really welcoming. They welcome you with 182 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: open arms. They don't judge you for you know, what 183 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: you've done. Do you feel that her son gets a 184 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: bit of a rough ride in the media. Church is 185 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: not a place of perfect people at all, Like, I 186 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: don't think anyone's claiming that or you know, and they 187 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: think like we're just imperfect people. Yeah. I think the 188 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: main thing is that other community is fantastic. Everyone's you know, 189 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: loves on each other and obviously Christians, and so we 190 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: find it's a really good place to worship, full of 191 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: authenticity and genuine people. A people use the word community 192 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: a lot, and I'm really interested in that concept of 193 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: what that means in relation to the church. Well, I think, well, 194 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: this is a good example. This is Keith. We met 195 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: him at church and we see each other every week 196 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: and we basically hang out not just that church for us, 197 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: at a church as well. So we're talking about community, 198 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about that sense of family. So yeah, that's 199 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: gonna say. It does really feel like family because we 200 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: have so many new people coming here all the time, 201 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: and we'll welcome a lot of new people and it's 202 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: just an ever growing community and family. It's something that's 203 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: really different. It's just grow so much so and we'll 204 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: welcome everyone from the new bonds to like people who 205 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: are in their eighties or hundreds or whatever. So yeah, 206 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: we're really happy to have everyone here. Just become part 207 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: of this awesome family. Hilson has been given a bit 208 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: of a rough trott media lately. How do you guys 209 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: feel about that. It's not really lately, It's been for 210 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: as long as I've known living in Sydney. I think 211 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: the way that we navigates we have a personal experience 212 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: of hell Song and we don't It's not like based 213 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: on what people have said or what we've read. It's 214 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: actually our own personal experience and nothing can really trump that. 215 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: The media. Yeah, yeah, it's sometimes one person's perspective. And 216 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: we have experienced the leadership here. We know personally some 217 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: of the leaders and the pastors and we've been mentored 218 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: by them and we absolutely adore them. And a lot 219 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: of it comes down to our faith and our personal 220 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: walk with God, and that's the lens that we use 221 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: to view things like scrutiny and stuff. In the church. 222 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: Everything's being shaken, but this is I think a small 223 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: part of what's in the long term. So we believe 224 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: that we're just gonna continue to grow, continue to do 225 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: what we need to do. I really enjoyed speaking to 226 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: Keith and his friends just now because for me, they're 227 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: really typical Hillsong is. They're aware of the issues that 228 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily shying away from them, but they're able 229 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: to square it by saying that humans are imperfect, that 230 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: we're all sinners before God, that God is the only 231 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: one that's perfect. Ultimately, what we seem to keep coming 232 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: back to why people are saying in the church is 233 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: they just like the sense of community. You'll still find 234 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people now saying, well, it's our church, 235 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: it's not the Houston's Church. A lot of people Brian 236 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: is a figure that's on the TV. Sometimes their connection 237 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: is much more deep and real within the church. The 238 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: notable thing from when I went inside is how much 239 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: the attendances have dropped from when I was there in January. 240 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: Still very much the same crowd representative of the local area, 241 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: lots of young people, but attendances would be down at 242 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: least half or two thirds on the amount of people 243 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: that I saw in January. Pretty significant. It's difficult to 244 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: say for sure, but considering I've been told that attendances 245 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: are down at a lot of the places. I think 246 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: it's pretty safe to assume that attendances are down here, 247 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: and the reason is the scandal, the embarrassment. Maybe some 248 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: people are just finding new churches. Hillsong has a lot 249 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: of imitators and sometimes it's just easier to go to 250 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: a different church. Just to give you a sense of 251 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: the term oil that went on behind the scenes, there 252 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: were real divisions about whether Brian Houston should be forced 253 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: out of the church he found it. He has loyal 254 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: supporters as well as critics. I've seen a letter that 255 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: Hillsong's hate of people and development. John Mays wrote to 256 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: the board just before Brian was sacked. He described Brian 257 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: as a man who saw himself as beyond disciplinary boundaries 258 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: and normal societal expectations. He dismissed an investigation into Brian's 259 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: behavior as dribble. Finally, he calls on the board to 260 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: consider removing Brian permanently from his position in Hillsong along 261 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: with his wife. Within days that happens, No wonder. Security 262 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: guards outside the church are feeling nervous about journalists. Hey, hey, 263 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: how are you going to get them on the team. Yeah, 264 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: I heard that you're doing there some sort of reporting. 265 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: They're just doing box pops style. That's just as people 266 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: that's what they think she's doing. She's doing a voice 267 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: her and then we ask people what they've seen. So yeah, 268 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: there's no filming. No, no, they're just audio. Yeah, just audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 269 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: thank you. Isaac from the venue team came out. They 270 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of volunteers in different positions, and they 271 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: certainly have a production and venue teams and there he 272 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: certainly looks like the head of security and the security 273 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: gardment and told him that I had to look around. 274 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: They clearly don't want us in there. And you know, 275 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: we're outside in public property, so that's fine. And they 276 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: just said that we can't take photos inside because they 277 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: are children around. But yeah, they're clearly not chilled by 278 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: us being here. A lot of Hillsong insiders won't talk publicly, 279 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: but one is so angry about the investigation into Brian 280 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: that she decided to speak out. Details of his behavior 281 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: are pretty sketchy. The most recent incident centers on forty 282 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: minutes Brian spent in a woman's hotel room. He says 283 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: he can't remember what happened, but he does say that 284 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: he'd been taking pills and booze. My contact feels fobbed 285 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: off by the church, but talking publicly would cause a 286 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: rift in the community and in her family, so her 287 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: words are spoken by an actor. It kind of brought 288 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: a whole level of shock into learning who these people 289 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: really are. And maybe this is the tip of the 290 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: iceberg of what we've been fed for copious amounts of years. 291 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: So when all this other stuff came out, it was like, ah, okay, 292 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: it all brings it back to what's this narcissist behavior 293 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: the whole time? And I look back, I'm like, literally 294 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: in horror. It was great at the beginning, but when 295 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: did it turn from being about people to about you 296 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: and your needs being met and your fame and your 297 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: celebrity status. And I think what it's turned into is, Yeah, 298 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: it's disgusting, disgusting. I don't think they will come back 299 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: to Hillsong Church as it is. I think they will 300 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: relaunch their careers somehow. If they ever come back, I'm 301 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: leaving because then it's all a joke. Monday Beach is 302 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: the iconic picture of Sydney. It's sunshine, beautiful people, everyone's 303 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: in in the ocean, surfing, going for a run with 304 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: their dog along the promenades, people doing yoga and meditating, 305 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: sitting outdoors at the cafes. It's a real place to 306 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: see and be seeing and it's the lifestyle capital of Sydney. 307 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: And needless to say, property here is pretty expensive. I've 308 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: come to Bondai because it's the second home of Brian 309 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: and Bobby Houston, and it's kind of emblematic of everything 310 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: that's gone wrong with the church. Their apartment is in 311 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: a prime real estate position, right on the south end 312 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: of the beach. They'd probably be able to throw from 313 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: their curtains and watch the beach each morning. The property's 314 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: worth around two million US and for a second home, 315 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: that's quite a lot of money. And it's really a 316 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: long way from what the church started out as and 317 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: from what people who have given so much to the 318 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: church over the years feel. They felt that they're building 319 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: a community, that they're building a place to do good 320 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: in the world. They are absolute mega celebrities within the 321 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: Christian pastor circle, particularly in the US, because they change 322 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: the business model. They made it okay to be this brand, 323 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: and so many preachers and churches around the world wanted 324 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: to to emulate that. A number of them brought into 325 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: the Hillsong umbrella where they give you a five percent 326 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: of all their profits to the overarching Hillsong Church to 327 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: get the branding, to get the training to be more 328 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: like Brian and Bobby. So even in parts of Africa 329 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: and South America, whether a Hillsong branches now, they're throwing 330 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: huge numbers of congregants because people feel as though they're 331 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: part of something bigger. It's not just the small local church. 332 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: They felt as though they were part of a big 333 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: global brand. And Brian and Bobby have always been the happy, friendly, 334 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: good looking, suave faces of US. Dramatic allegations have been 335 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: leveled tonight against Hillsong. The mega church is accused of 336 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: breaking Australian law by sending millions of dollars overseas and 337 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: then august rating an elaborate cover up. On August the twelfth, 338 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: a statement of claim was filed in the courts in 339 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: Australia with an employee of Hillsong's finance department. And this 340 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: is just dynamite. The one thing that anyone that's looked 341 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: into Hillsong over the last ten twenty years has been 342 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: trying to find out is how much money is there 343 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: and where's it going? And this is the closest that 344 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: we've gotten yet to looking at Hillsong's books. The employee 345 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: made a number of complaints about the way that they 346 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: were handling transferring money between different Hillsong entities and different 347 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: Hillsong countries, and this employee is said to have downloaded 348 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: some forty thousand documents. Court documents claim church leaders used 349 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: tax free money for large cash gifts to Hillsong's founder 350 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: and his family. So some of the other interesting things 351 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: that have come out of it, firstly the sums of 352 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: money that are being moved around, and this is charity 353 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: money that people have given over in good faith. What's 354 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: really interesting to me as a journalist is knowing the 355 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: lawyer that's taken on her case is a very high 356 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: profile lawyer that's affiliated with the labor movement in Australia 357 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: so often takes on high profile cases to embarrass big 358 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: corporations and to set precedents, and so him taking on 359 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: this case really makes me think that they want to 360 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: flush these documents out of Hillsong, and that's obviously really 361 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: exciting for someone like me. I'm Josh Bornstein. I'm the 362 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: head of employment law at Maurice Blackburn. I've represented many 363 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: whistleblowers across public and private sector over many years. Josh 364 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: Bornsteen is representing Natalie Moses. She's the Hillsong whistleblower. It's 365 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: important to remember the court is being asked to decide 366 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: an employment or a fair work case. The court is 367 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: not being asked to investigate Hillsong's finances. It has to 368 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: decide whether Natalie Moses was treated unfairly by her employer, Hillsong. 369 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: The cases about concerns Natalie Moses had about Hillsong and 370 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: its finances, and whether her employment was terminated because she 371 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: raised those concerns or for some other reason. It's the 372 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: first time I've represented a whistleblower in a religious institution. 373 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: I've tended to represent them either in big private sector 374 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: companies or sometimes government bodies, but this is the first 375 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: time I'm in a religious setting that whistleblowers come to 376 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: see me. Natalie Moses, like many whistleblowers, is someone with 377 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: a very strong sense of ethics, strong laural code, who 378 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: is herself quite religious, and who has worked in governance 379 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: and financial management roles, if I can put it that way, 380 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: in Hillsong for some years, like many other whistleblower cases, 381 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: these cases have a very similar trajectory. She has been 382 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: raising concerns with progressive intensity or incrementally increasing the way 383 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: in which she has raised concerns about financial matters, in 384 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: particular governance compliance with corporations law, tax law, charity's law 385 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: within a very complex financial empire that Hillsong is, and 386 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: the matters continue to escalate to the point of having 387 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: open disagreement with very senior executives within Hillsong, and then, 388 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: in another familiar twist, suddenly her access to information was 389 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: cut off and she was under a disciplinary investigation allegedly 390 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: because of accessing documents, and was fearful that she was 391 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: about to be sacked, and that's when she contacted me. 392 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: Whether the Hillsong documents are made public depends on whether 393 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: the case ever comes to court, and many cases like 394 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: this are settled out of court. So Natalie Moses's claims 395 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: have not been tested and Hillsong disputes them. He's Josh 396 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: Bondstein again talking about Miss moses concerns. This is a 397 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: very complicated financial empire with multiple entities across the world, 398 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: some with charitable status, which received tax deductible donations and 399 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: are required to comply with relevant legislative standards in Australia. 400 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: So there are concerns that companies within the Hillsong Empire 401 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: are not complying with corporations law, particularly about requirements that 402 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: the law imposes when you transfer money from Australia overseas. 403 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: There are concerns that Hillsong is encouraging followers to donate 404 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: to them on the basis that their donations will be 405 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: for tax deductible purposes, but then using that money in 406 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: a manner that's not properly tax deductible. There are concerns 407 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: that the I think eighteen entities within the Hillsong Empire 408 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: that have charitable status are not complying with legislative requirements 409 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: for charities in Australia. There's very serious concerns that the 410 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: Charities Regulator, which has commenced and inquiry into some of 411 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: the Hillsong entities, is not being provided with accurate information 412 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: in response to its questions, which is a pretty serious matter. 413 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: There's concerns that the tax laws not being complied with. 414 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: There's concerns about excessive gifts, remuneration, unusual arrangements, about designating 415 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: musicians as pastors of the church, paying them significant salaries 416 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: which is at least in part text deductible at the 417 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: same time as they are receiving sometimes up to millions 418 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: of dollars in royalties. There's just an enormous range of 419 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: complex issues that Natalie Moses has raised in this proceeding. 420 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: Hillsong is robustly defending the case. We invited the church 421 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: to take part in this series and it did not 422 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: take up the offer. Hillsong filed its defense on the 423 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: fourteenth of October twenty twenty two and denies many of 424 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: moses allegations. In its defense, the church denies Natalie moses 425 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: central claim that she was unfairly suspended. Hillsong says she 426 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: breached its I policy and acted outside the scope of 427 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: her role, including by downloading forty thousand documents over a weekend, 428 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: many of them confidential, and then deleting her scent and 429 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: leated items when called into a meeting with the HR 430 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: staff member. And on the accusations about its finances, Hillsong 431 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: denies it deceived the Australian Charities Regulator and It denies 432 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: that miss Moses was ever asked to help lie to 433 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: the regulator. Hillsong says Miss Moses was reassured that if 434 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: any issues were identified as part of the regulators investigation, 435 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: then Hillsong would move to correct the issue proactively. Hillsong 436 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: also denies claims tax free money was used for cash 437 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: gifts to Brian Houston and his family, or that it 438 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: represented to followers that certain donations were tax seductible and 439 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: then use that money for activities that were not tax seductible. 440 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: The church says an independent audit found that the Hillsong 441 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: Foundation Trust has not breached its own trust seed or 442 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: charity legislation. Hillsong also denies that it has not provided 443 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: accurate information to the charity regulator, or that it breached 444 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: tax law by paying musicians as if they were passes 445 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: and therefore of boyd at tax liability, and on the 446 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: accusations that the church breached rules with payments made to 447 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: overseas entities. In its defense, Hillsong says that it's international 448 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: operations did not contravene the external conduct standards which govern 449 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: Howard registered charity has to manage its activities outside of Australia. So, 450 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: just to recap, the bombshell went off in August, only 451 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: five months after Brian Houston's exit in disgrace. So Hillsong 452 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: is still reeling when my contact inside the church gets 453 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: in touch again as the Natalie Moses story breaks. When 454 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: I saw the article, I guess my heart has gone 455 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: straight out to Miss Moses. I feel that she is 456 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: what we in the church used to say, brave women 457 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: run in my family. Well, I'll tell you what I 458 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: think that is a definition of a brave woman. She's 459 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: probably lost her job, she's probably been excluded. It doesn't 460 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: read to me like she was trying to undermine her 461 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: boss and do things against the flow. I feel like 462 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: she was trying to protect the church and she came 463 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: across as being from a place of we need to 464 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: be doing the absolute by the book. And while the 465 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: new leadership of Hillsong is dealing with the Moses case, 466 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: there are still divisions over the way that Brian Houston 467 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: left the church. My contact is critical of the Houston leadership, 468 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: but other people are still loyal to Brian and Bobby. 469 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: I'm still not attending church in person. I'll watch online. 470 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: I've got friends who are in the same camp as me, 471 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: a lot of friends. And then I've got people who 472 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: I'm observing who are the sheep following the Houstons who 473 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: are actually thought better off. So there's this weird dynamic 474 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: of people who are wanting to align with the Houstons 475 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: and not seeing that they were the very biggest problem 476 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: we had. I think there's a huge camp of we 477 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: see exactly what's going on, and we don't know what 478 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: to do with this shit, which is kind of where 479 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: I'm at. And then I think there are these sheeples who, 480 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: oh my god, Brian and Bobby, we love you forever. 481 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: When it first came out, it was like a real 482 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: massive shock, traumatic shock to the system because you believed 483 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: in these people, You supported these people, poured megabucks into 484 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: the church personally, to find out it's all a fass. Really, 485 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: it's all a fass. It's basically a fass. It feels 486 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: like it's been a generating money system for the Houston family. 487 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: Was any of this really about the church? Because I'm 488 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: finding that hard to join those dots. It feels like 489 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: it's all about them. So, yeah, where's the humility and 490 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: the grace in this there's none which tells me that 491 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: all along. Maybe they started off thirty nine years ago 492 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: with the right intentions, but somewhere along the line it 493 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: became about them, their power, their reputation, and yeah, I 494 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: find that conflicting, very conflicting. The man dealing with the 495 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: fallout is past the fil Duel, Hillsong's interim leader. He's 496 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: a very different character from the big Eagle Brian Houston. 497 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: He's more low key and he doesn't have Brian Houston's 498 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: political connections. So there we go. Thank you, Yes, thank you. 499 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: So we're heading up to a sausage sizzle, which is 500 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: known as democracy sausage. So polling places in Australia are 501 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: almost always schools and traditionally they're allowed to hosts of 502 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: fundraiser for their school at the same time. So for 503 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: a dollar or two you get a sausage on a 504 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: barbecue in a bit of bread. This is federal election 505 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: day in Australia. Hillsong under Brian Houston had friends in 506 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: very high places. Prime Minister Scott Morrison name checked him 507 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: when he was first elected and remained a supporter for 508 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: many years. Scott Morrison didn't attend Hillsong Church but he 509 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: was a good friend of Brian's. In fact, he helped 510 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: him get a photo up at the White House with 511 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: President Trump. It's a very Australian tradition that everyone loves 512 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: doing on the day and it's um yeah, it's part 513 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: of the reason voting is compulsory here, so you've got 514 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: to come along and wait in line for five or 515 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: ten minutes. So it's a perk of the obligation. I suppose, okay, 516 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: here you go, and as it turns out, there's a 517 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: spare half, so if you give it back to me, 518 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: pop that. I don't know how we ended up with spirit. 519 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: Scott Morrison lost this election and the new government has 520 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: announced inquiries into a number of projects with links to Hillsinger. Today, 521 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: yet I'm a I'm a vegetarian, so it's not really 522 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: my thing. But the most serious test yet for Brian 523 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: Houston personally is coming. It links back to his past 524 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: and to his late father, Frank Houston. Do you wish 525 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: to take the oath or the affirmation? Could you raise 526 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: the Bible in your right hand please and repeat after me. 527 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God 528 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall 529 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: give in this Royal Commission, In this Royal Commission shall 530 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: be the truth. Shall be the truth, the whole truth, 531 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing 532 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: but the truth. This is Brian Houston giving evidence to 533 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: a public inquiry known as a Royal Commission hearing in 534 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen. It's looking into allegations of child 535 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: abuse and you've prepared a statement for the Royal Commission, 536 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: dated the twenty eighth of September twenty fourteen. Yes, are 537 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: there any changes you wish to make that state? Do 538 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: you say it truly could correct for us of your knowledge? Yes, 539 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: I tender the statement eighteen zero zero nine. The hearing 540 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: her that allegations emerged in nineteen ninety nine that Frank 541 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: Houston sexually abused a child in the nineteen seventies. Brian 542 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: Houston was the National President of the Assemblies of God 543 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: in Australia at the time, a powerful organization that oversaw 544 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: many churches in Australia, including Hillsong. Brian Houston confronted his father, 545 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: who confessed to the abuse. So my father retired in 546 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety nine from senior pastor role at the time, 547 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: it seemed very rushed that he suddenly asked me if 548 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: I would take on the church. And now with hindsight, 549 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: I think we know some of the reasons why that is. 550 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: After hearing Brian Houston's evidence, the commissioners decided that he 551 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: and the National Executive of Assemblies of God did not 552 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: refer the allegations against Frank Houston to police. They decided 553 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: that Brian had a conflict of interests. He has always 554 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: argued that the victim did not want the abuse reported 555 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: to police. After a two year investigation, in twenty twenty one, 556 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: police charged Brian Houston with concealing child abuse. Brian Houston 557 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: has always vehemently denied the charges. It all seems a 558 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: long way from the church that Naomi became a part 559 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: of in Boston, and these shadows from the past sometimes 560 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: seem remote to Hillsong followers in Australia today. But what 561 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: we have to remember is this case is part of 562 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: a much bigger picture. It's part of a massive undertaking 563 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: in Australia to examine abuses of the past and try 564 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: to bring some sort of justice. It's so interesting to 565 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: hear your first impressions of Brian because coming from Australia, 566 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: it was always Brian Houston's Hillsong, So it's interesting to 567 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: hear that in America it wasn't so much to do 568 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: with the Houston family. I'm really interested. I guess that. 569 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: You know, did you sort of look into Hillsong at 570 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: all before you joined or was it just getting caught 571 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: up in the way that it made you feel once 572 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: you were in that room and finding a new home 573 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: as they call it. No, I did not look into 574 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: it beforehand, because yes, I did get caught up in 575 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: the feel and the look of it. I knew that 576 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: Hillsong had come from Australia, but that was pretty much it. 577 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: I didn't really care too much to look deeper. When 578 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: I first heard of Brian and heard him speak at 579 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Hillsong Phoenix in the recording, it kind of seemed weird 580 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: to me, but I felt like, Okay, well, if I 581 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: attend a local church, I won't hear from him much. 582 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: And here and there, probably once a year we would 583 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: get a recording of Brian speaking. And to be completely 584 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: even more honest and upfront, I really didn't sit in 585 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: to listen to the messages because it was always focused 586 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: on the local church and on the East Coast. Yeah, 587 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: that's something I hear all the time. It was so 588 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: much about those interpersonal relationships, and I always wonder how 589 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: it felt just wheeling a TV screen out. That's so impersonal. 590 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: But I guess I'm wondering, how did you feel when 591 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: you started finding out all the stuff about Brian and 592 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: his father, that the guy who's the head of the 593 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: church had all of this stuff in his background. I 594 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: had heard about it briefly, and a lot of people 595 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: within the church and leaders and pastors kept saying like 596 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: they would be frustrating, like again, they're bringing this up again, 597 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: Like I thought he had already addressed this. So when 598 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: I saw that, for me, it was like, Okay, this 599 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: is interesting. I'm not sure what's happening. I started looking 600 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: into it a little bit more, and to be completely honest, 601 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: I don't find that surprising because I grew up in church. 602 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: My dad was a pastor, my uncles are pastors, close 603 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 1: family friends or pastors, and we saw a lot of things. 604 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: I unfortunately saw a lot of sexual misconduct and sexual 605 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: assault and pedophilia and never saw it come to a 606 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: legal matter. Because the church is really good at hiding it. 607 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: Now that I've been in therapy and now that I've 608 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: been learning more and as you know better, you do better. 609 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: I've been reaching out to some people and asking them 610 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: how are actually doing and if they want to come forward, 611 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: and that they have my full support, Like I want 612 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: to be on the better side now of being able 613 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: to share those because when I heard about them, I 614 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: was a kid. I couldn't see anything and I didn't 615 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: have any authority. But now as an adult, I want 616 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: to be part of that change. Since my trip to Sydney, 617 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: I've discovered that Brian and Bobby Houston's Bondie property has 618 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: been sold. Brian Houston has been preaching in the United 619 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: States and Australia, and he's contradicted a lot of the 620 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: Hillsong narrative around his departure. He says I didn't resign 621 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: because of mistakes I'd made, but because Hillsong made my 622 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: position untenable, and he says details of his mistakes were 623 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: made public so people's imaginations ran wild, but his perspective 624 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: wasn't reflected by the church. Brian Houston also denies that 625 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: he's an alcoholic or that he has a problem with 626 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: prescription drugs, and in the end he comes out fighting, 627 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: saying I'm flawed, I've been humbled, but I'm not living 628 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: in disgrace and my head is held high. In the 629 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: next episode of False Prophets, it's time to share more 630 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: of my personal story. It's all about what I wish 631 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: I would have known about Hillsong and sexuality before I 632 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: got in so deep. I thought I'd found a place 633 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: that was welcoming and affirming, but that was far from 634 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: the truth, and it cost me so much harm. And 635 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. A story from Hillsong's past 636 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: is still causing pain today.