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Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the

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Speaker 1: people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working

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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

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Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How

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Speaker 1: is us dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic

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Speaker 1: digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy

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Speaker 1: that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you

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Speaker 1: as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more. Hey Kelly,

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Speaker 1: how was your family trip?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 5: It was so much fun.

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Speaker 1: Did you guys get to break out of your usual

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Speaker 1: routines experience something different?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, It's something that was unusual for our kids was

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Speaker 5: eating at restaurants. We don't do a lot of that

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Speaker 5: when we're at home, and you know, we didn't do

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Speaker 5: a lot of it because of COVID and stuff. So

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Speaker 5: that was new.

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Speaker 1: And what is it that your kids like about eating

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Speaker 1: out at restaurants? Aren't you guys like super good cooks

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Speaker 1: at home?

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Speaker 5: Well, we keep me out of the kitchen for everyone's sake.

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Speaker 5: But Zach is a really good cook, so that's good.

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Speaker 5: But I think for the kids, they mostly like the

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Speaker 5: novelty of it, you know, the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: Mmmm, well that's exciting, but it doesn't actually bode very

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Speaker 1: well for them as future space colonists.

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Speaker 5: No, I'm not following.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean, Well, I hear that restaurants on

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Speaker 1: the Moon have no atmosphere.

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Speaker 6: Oh Hi, I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 1: I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine,

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Speaker 1: and I'm always in the mood for a good space pun.

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Speaker 5: I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I'm an adjunct assistant professor at

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Speaker 5: Grace University, and I am also a fan of the puns,

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Speaker 5: especially the moon based ones.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of inappropriate moon based puns that we

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Speaker 1: could make right now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, no, you and I are pretty good at that.

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Speaker 5: But we're going to keep it clean.

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Speaker 1: We are definitely going to keep it clean as we

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Speaker 1: examine the deep dark mysteries of the Universe and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the universe in

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Speaker 1: which we do exactly that, ask the biggest, darkest, deepest

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Speaker 1: questions about everything that's out there in the universe. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to sweep anything under the rug. We want

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Speaker 1: to expose it all to the blinding glare of sunlight

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Speaker 1: and make it all make sense to you. My usual

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Speaker 1: co host, Jorge can't be here today, so we are

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Speaker 1: delighted to have one of our regular co hosts, Kelly. Kelly,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: I'm delighted to be back.

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Speaker 1: Oh Kelly. When you're on the podcast, we're often talking

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Speaker 1: about space and about the the wonders of the night sky,

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Speaker 1: putting people out there mentally sort of at night, staring

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Speaker 1: up in the stars, being amazed at everything that we

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Speaker 1: are seeing.

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Speaker 5: That's right, and then you turn it into something about

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Speaker 5: how we're all gonna die. But yes, we are usually

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Speaker 5: looking up at the night sky and having a sense

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Speaker 5: of awe about it all.

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Speaker 1: Because one of the things that I love about science

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Speaker 1: is that it lifts us up away from our everyday lives.

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Speaker 1: It forces us to turn our eyes skywards and think

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Speaker 1: about what's out there in the universe. Usually that's something

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Speaker 1: we do at night because during the day the sun

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Speaker 1: is so bright it keeps us from seeing everything that's

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Speaker 1: out there that makes us wonder, that makes us ask

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Speaker 1: deep questions about the very nature of the universe. But

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Speaker 1: you know, everything that's out there is also out there

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Speaker 1: during the daytime.

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Speaker 5: And I remember that blew my mind when I was

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Speaker 5: a kid and I first learned that. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: all still out there. And sometimes you can see the

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Speaker 5: moon during the day.

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Speaker 1: It always feels sort of inappropriate though when you see

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Speaker 1: the moon during the day, it feels like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you've caught somebody like they're not supposed to be, Like

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Speaker 1: they're t towing to the fridge in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night and you spotted them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, or like they don't know their place, you know,

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Speaker 5: like moon, your place is at night. You're stepping on

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Speaker 5: the Sun's toes.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's not only the nighttime sky that's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating, that's really amazing, that has a lot of

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Speaker 1: physics in it, is a lot we can learn about

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Speaker 1: the nature of the universe and what's out there just

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Speaker 1: by looking up at the daytime sky.

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Speaker 5: Oh well, what can we learn.

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Speaker 1: Well, one common question from kids, of course, is why

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Speaker 1: is the sky blue? You know, if the Sun is

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Speaker 1: just shining through space at us, what is it that

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Speaker 1: makes the sky blue? And so we've talked about on

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Speaker 1: the podcast a few times. It's a fascinating interaction between

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Speaker 1: the Sun's gas and the atmospheric gases. The light that

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Speaker 1: comes directly from the Sun is white light. If you

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Speaker 1: were out in space looking at the Sun, it would

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Speaker 1: mostly look white, maybe a little bit yellow, but not

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Speaker 1: all of that light passes through our atmosphere equally well,

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Speaker 1: when light hits gases in the atmosphere tends to scatter,

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Speaker 1: and it scatters more for the very high frequency light,

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Speaker 1: the blue light. That might make you think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we should see everything, but the blue light, like the

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Speaker 1: blue should get reflected back into space, and it does

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Speaker 1: get reflected back into space, but it also gets reflected

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Speaker 1: down to the ground. So when you're standing on the

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Speaker 1: surface of the Earth and you're looking up at the sky,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing light that doesn't come directly from the Sun

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Speaker 1: and sort of hidd an atom and bounce down to

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Speaker 1: your eyeballs. So the reason that our daytime sky is

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Speaker 1: blue is because those gases bounce the blue light down

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Speaker 1: to our eyeballs.

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Speaker 5: And can we use this to figure out what the

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Speaker 5: atmospheres of other planets are made of just by looking

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Speaker 5: at the color that we see when we shine a

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Speaker 5: telescope at them.

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Speaker 1: We totally can and we do exactly that. When exoplanets

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Speaker 1: pass in front of their stars, the light goes through

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Speaker 1: their atmosphere and some of it bounces off and some

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Speaker 1: of it passes through and some of it is absorbed.

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Speaker 1: It's a great way to understand what's in those exoplanet atmospheres.

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Speaker 1: And so it's sort of like X raying the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: Passing light through it is a great way to figure

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Speaker 1: out like what's there, how's it glow? What does it absorb?

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Speaker 1: But what does it reflect? I love the idea of

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Speaker 1: seeing a sunrise on an exoplanet and using that to

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Speaker 1: figure out what's in the sky. And you know, sunrises

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Speaker 1: on different planets all look very different because different planets

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Speaker 1: have different atmospheres.

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Speaker 5: And so when I am looking up in the night

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Speaker 5: sky recently, I've been seeing a big red dot. Is

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Speaker 5: that Mars or is it Venus? And also when I

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Speaker 5: see those colors, is that the atmosphere I'm seeing or

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Speaker 5: is that something else that I'm seeing entirely.

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Speaker 1: So, if you look up at the night sky and

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a red dot, that's probably Mars, and Mars

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Speaker 1: is definitely red. If you were in a satellite orbiting

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Speaker 1: Mars looking down, it would look red to your eyeballs.

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Speaker 1: It's not just like a false color thing from satellite

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Speaker 1: imagery that we take and then change the way, like

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Speaker 1: James web Space Telescope images are all false color. If

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Speaker 1: your eyeballs were there where James Webb Space Telescope was,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't be seeing those images because those images are

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Speaker 1: all infrared. They're all two deep, too long wavelengths for

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Speaker 1: your eyeball to even register. But if your eyeballs were

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Speaker 1: orbiting Mars, hopefully with the rest of your body, you

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Speaker 1: would see it as red. And the reason there is

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Speaker 1: not actually the atmosphere, because Mars has almost no atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: It's very very thin atmosphere. It's because the surface of

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Speaker 1: Mars itself is mostly red due to the iron and

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Speaker 1: the oxidization of it, so it's covered in this red

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Speaker 1: dust and it's sort of amazing that you can see

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Speaker 1: it from the Earth's surface. Right, that this thing is

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Speaker 1: so red that you can see it from your backyard.

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Speaker 5: That's incredible. And then the fact that you so you

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Speaker 5: said that it has very little atmosphere, that makes me

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Speaker 5: I have a pop culture question to ask you. Someone

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Speaker 5: told me that one of the things they didn't like

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Speaker 5: about the Martian was that with a low atmosphere, if

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Speaker 5: you had a big dust storm, it wouldn't be strong

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Speaker 5: enough to like knock over a rocket, because low atmosphere

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Speaker 5: means like far fewer molecules pushing against things, even in

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Speaker 5: a big windstorm. So is that not accurate about the Martian?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is war, this is this is absolutely vital stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely true that the atmosphere on Mars is very

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Speaker 1: very low. It's like less than one percent of the

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Speaker 1: Earth's atmosphere, and that means that the wind don't apply

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Speaker 1: as much pressure. So when did the same velocity. For example,

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Speaker 1: there just aren't as many molecules bouncing off of you,

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Speaker 1: but the velocity can get very high, and there's also

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Speaker 1: a lot of dust in the atmosphere on Mars. You

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Speaker 1: definitely do have to worry about storms, a very high

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Speaker 1: velocity wind storm on Mars can do a lot of

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Speaker 1: damage because all the dust particles, you can basically sand

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Speaker 1: blast you. Right, I don't know if the velocities actually

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Speaker 1: get high enough to knock things over. We'll have to

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Speaker 1: get Andy Weir on the podcast and ask him that question.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, I loved that book in that movie,

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Speaker 5: and you're making me feel better knowing that maybe that

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Speaker 5: opening scene was feasible, because I would hate to think

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Speaker 5: it wasn't. But okay, all right, let's get back to

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Speaker 5: the important stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it does bring us to a really fascinating fact

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Speaker 1: about Mars, which is if you're standing on the surface

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Speaker 1: of Mars and you look down, of course it looks red.

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Speaker 1: But also if you look up, it looks red. That is,

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Speaker 1: the sky on Mars doesn't look blue like it does

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Speaker 1: on Earth. That's because Earth has this atmosphere which scatters

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Speaker 1: the blue light down to your eyeballs, but Mars doesn't.

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Speaker 1: This atmosphere is so thin that it doesn't effectively scatter

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Speaker 1: that light.

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Speaker 5: So then why is it red instead of like white

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Speaker 5: from the sun.

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Speaker 1: It's because of all of the dust. Right, Mars doesn't

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Speaker 1: have much atmosphere, but the dust is up there, and

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Speaker 1: that dust tends to absorb blue light. That's why it

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Speaker 1: looks red. Remember, things that look a certain color, they're

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Speaker 1: reflecting that color and they're absorbing everything else. So things

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Speaker 1: that are yellow are things that reflect yellow because the

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Speaker 1: yellow makes it to your eyeball and they absorb everything else.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds weird to say that red dust absorbs

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Speaker 1: blue light. You might think that makes it blue, right,

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Speaker 1: but actually that's what makes it red. So when you

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Speaker 1: look up in the sky during the daytime on Mars,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing the red light reflected from that dust.

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Speaker 5: I didn't realize that the dust never settled enough for

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Speaker 5: the sky to not be red. That's incredible.

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Speaker 1: It is incredible. And if you're lucky enough to observe

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Speaker 1: a sunset on Mars, then you'll see an amazing blue sunset. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's like totally reversed from Earth because this dust scatters

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Speaker 1: the red light, and so if you're looking directly at

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Speaker 1: the sun sort of, then most of the red light

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Speaker 1: has been scattered away by the dust, and so the

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Speaker 1: blue light is all that survives. So you see a

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Speaker 1: blue sunset on Mars on a red sky.

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Speaker 5: Oh, that's incredible. I hope within my lifetime we get

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Speaker 5: photos of that taken by an astronaut that landed on

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Speaker 5: the Martian surface.

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Speaker 1: Blue sunset selfie. Wow, what an Instagram pick.

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Speaker 5: That'll be incredible TikTok.

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Speaker 1: And that makes you wonder, like what it would be

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Speaker 1: like to be on other planets. Right, If the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: of the planet is what determines what it looks like

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Speaker 1: to be on the planet, the color of the daytime

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Speaker 1: sky and atmospheres can be like, you know, anything that

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Speaker 1: opens the door to like having all sorts of crazy

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Speaker 1: daytime colors. You know, can you have like a yellow

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Speaker 1: sky or a purple sky or something with crazy stripes

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Speaker 1: from atmospheric bands? Right, I haven't yet seen that in

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Speaker 1: a science fiction movie, you know, somebody living on Jupiter

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Speaker 1: with the sky has like stripes of color.

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Speaker 5: That would be really awesome, that would be epic.

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Speaker 1: And there aren't many places in the Solar System where

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Speaker 1: we have had people take pictures, right. One of those,

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Speaker 1: of course, is the Moon. It's something that's striking about

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Speaker 1: all of the pictures from the moon, is that the

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Speaker 1: sky the backdrop or if you look above the moon,

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Speaker 1: it's always black? And why is that right? Because you

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Speaker 1: associate black with the color of the night sky, right,

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Speaker 1: But even during the moon sort of daytime, when the

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Speaker 1: sun is shining right at you, there's nothing there to

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Speaker 1: scatter the light. So from the point of view of

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Speaker 1: somebody on the Moon, the sun is just another star.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of like a perpetual night sky with

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Speaker 1: one huge, very bright star in it half the time.

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Speaker 5: Whoa also not very invited.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't want to have a picnic under a black sky.

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Speaker 5: I feel like the regulis would get in my sandwich

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Speaker 5: and would sort of mess up the overall feeling.

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Speaker 1: So the reason the night sky in the Moon is

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Speaker 1: black is because there isn't a strong enough atmosphere there

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Speaker 1: on the Moon to scatter it to make it blue

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Speaker 1: or purple or yellow at pink polka dots. But it

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Speaker 1: does raise an interesting question and the question of today's episode,

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Speaker 1: which is does the moon have an atmosphere? So this

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Speaker 1: is a fun question because it lets us dig into

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Speaker 1: definitions and quibble about what it means to have an atmosphere.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, for quibbling.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it feels to me like a big part of

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Speaker 1: science is just like arguing about what a definition is,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, is this really a mammal I don't

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Speaker 1: know it lays egg what does that mean? Whereas really

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Speaker 1: that interesting questions are like the questions behind that, you know,

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Speaker 1: like why does something with hair lay eggs?

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Speaker 5: Anyway, Yeah, that was one of the most surprising things

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Speaker 5: when I started college, was like, wait a minute, we

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Speaker 5: don't even know how to define a species really, And yeah,

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Speaker 5: of course huge arguments over that, but you know, it's

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Speaker 5: cause nature doesn't fit in the categories that humans would

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Speaker 5: like it to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes those arguments are just a waste of time,

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Speaker 1: people splitting hairs, whether there's nothing really to be learned,

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Speaker 1: But sometimes it really is illuminating because we do try

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Speaker 1: to describe the universe in terms of categories. These ways

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Speaker 1: that we'd like to think about things are sort of

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Speaker 1: our familiar basis, and in the end, that's what science

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Speaker 1: is is explaining everything we'd see in terms of things

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Speaker 1: we understand. Physics is describing the unfamiliar in terms of

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Speaker 1: the familiar. So the words we're using are somewhat of important.

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Speaker 1: If we're going to communicate with each other about these ideas,

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Speaker 1: we better at least know what the words mean.

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Speaker 5: And I guess, to be fair, I'm thinking that I

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Speaker 5: don't exactly know when an atmosphere starts and stops, because

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Speaker 5: it seems like sort of a gradient, like, is you

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Speaker 5: know at what point do you call it an atmosphere

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Speaker 5: versus something else? And so I'm not sure that I

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Speaker 5: know the answer. So let's see what your listeners think.

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Speaker 1: Great idea, and so as usual, I went out there

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Speaker 1: into the internet to ask people if they thought that

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Speaker 1: the moon had an atmosphere. If you'd like to participate

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Speaker 1: for future episodes of the podcast, please don't be shy

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Speaker 1: or right to me two questions at Danielandhorge dot com

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Speaker 1: and I will set you up. It's free, it's fun.

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Speaker 1: Your friends can hear your voice on the podcast. So

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Speaker 1: before before you hear these answers, think to yourself, but

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Speaker 1: do you think the moon has an atmosphere? Here's what

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Speaker 1: people had to say.

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Speaker 7: Hi, So I don't think that our moon has an atmosphere,

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Speaker 7: at least anything substantial enough to call it an atmosphere.

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Speaker 7: I did have a physics professor my first year of

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Speaker 7: college who claimed to have a plan to give the

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Speaker 7: Moon atmosphere for two hundred years by basically creating an

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Speaker 7: orbital cannon that could help a smaller moon from either

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Speaker 7: Jupiter Titan. I have like an escape bloss you of

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Speaker 7: seventeen miles an hour to slingshot that into hours, vaporize

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Speaker 7: it and create an atmosphere. But it was only for

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Speaker 7: two hundred years, so I think that implies temporary and

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Speaker 7: nothing substantial enough.

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Speaker 8: I don't think the Moon has an atmosphere. I mean

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Speaker 8: there might be some like low density hydrogen or something

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Speaker 8: floating around, but not enough to caut an atmosphere.

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Speaker 9: I think it has some atmosphere only because I'm thinking

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Speaker 9: that moon has a weak magnetive field that might be

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Speaker 9: able to contain some kind of atmosphere.

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Speaker 10: There are so.

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Speaker 9: Not what Earth has, but still.

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Speaker 11: Something I would guess it probably does. I doubt it

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Speaker 11: looks anything like ours does on Earth, but I would

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Speaker 11: guess that if you're a body or an object in

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Speaker 11: the sky and you're large enough or dense enough that

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Speaker 11: you probably attract some kind of atmosphere.

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Speaker 12: Oh, the Moon doesn't have an atmosphere.

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Speaker 8: I think it's because it's gravitational attraction is too weak to.

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Speaker 9: Sort of hold the guesses around it to form an atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think of these answers? Kelly, A

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Speaker 1: lot of skepticism here, a lot of folks feeling like

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Speaker 1: the Moon can't really have much of an atmosphere.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but a lot of critical thinking also, a lot

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Speaker 5: of folks trying to think through like, well, you know,

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Speaker 5: I think the Moon has a weak magnetic field, so

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Speaker 5: that wouldn't contain it. And yeah, so lots of good

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Speaker 5: thinking through the problem.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I love seeing people apply their knowledge of

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Speaker 1: physics to this question to come up with an answer

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Speaker 1: that they think makes sense, because if the answer is

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Speaker 1: not the one that you expect, then there better will

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Speaker 1: be an explanation for it. Right, That, in the end,

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Speaker 1: is what physics is all about.

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Speaker 5: That's right. So how about we start by talking about

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Speaker 5: where atmosphere has come from? How do you get an atmosphere?

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Speaker 1: Well, you go to Amazon dot com and you just

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Speaker 1: type in whatever you'd like, and you know, they deliver it.

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Speaker 5: I know so many space settlement advocates who are going

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Speaker 5: to be so excited to know it's going to be

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Speaker 5: so easy on the Moon, our Mars. It's surprising. Basis,

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Speaker 5: isn't saying more about this on Mars?

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Speaker 1: Isn't the planet you just like nuke the polar ice caps?

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Speaker 1: Isn't that like step one and getting a Martian atmosphere.

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Speaker 5: You know that has been proposed, but I'm fairly certain

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Speaker 5: the international community has mixed feelings about that proposal, so

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Speaker 5: I'm not holding my breath. And also I think it

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Speaker 5: makes it uninhabitable for quite a while. But you know,

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Speaker 5: if we've got our great grandkids in mind, maybe it's

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Speaker 5: a good plan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a whole episode on terraforming Mars and

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Speaker 1: why that plan will not work. So we're lucky we

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Speaker 1: have such a nice atmosphere here on Earth. And I

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Speaker 1: think you're right. It's a good idea to think about

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Speaker 1: why Earth has that atmosphere and why the Moon doesn't

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Speaker 1: have at least the same atmosphere as we do. And

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that the Earth sort of has

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Speaker 1: had a few different atmospheres. The Earth got its first

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Speaker 1: atmosphere when it was just forming. Remember, the whole Solar

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Speaker 1: system just comes from a big cloud of gas and

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Speaker 1: dust and rock and little bits from other solar systems

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Speaker 1: and stars that died. Most of it's just hydrogen left

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Speaker 1: over from the Big Bang. But you have this big

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Speaker 1: cloud of gas and dust in space, you have some

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Speaker 1: blobs in it that are a little denser than others,

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Speaker 1: so they have stronger gravity. They are pulling everything together,

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Speaker 1: and that's the formation of the Solar system. Of course,

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Speaker 1: in the very center is the Sun, which gathers in

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Speaker 1: most of the gas and the dust. But you also

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Speaker 1: have other little blobs which eventually form planets, and they

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Speaker 1: try to gather as much stuff as they can before

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Speaker 1: the Sun gobbles it all up.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 5: It's funny my intuition, and this is why I didn't

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Speaker 5: become a physicist. My intuition, Like, it feels to me

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Speaker 5: like gases shouldn't get pulled in by gravity, but of

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Speaker 5: course they are, and they should. But idea that gravity

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Speaker 5: is holding our atmosphere on, I don't know. It feels

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Speaker 5: like the little molecules should be able to just pop

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Speaker 5: out and escape. But I'm glad that I'm wrong about it.

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Speaker 1: You're not actually wrong. A lot of them do escape,

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Speaker 1: and the Earth is constantly boiling off its atmosphere into space.

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Speaker 1: It's a tenuous balance, right. The Earth is pulling on

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Speaker 1: those little guys, but they are moving quickly, and the

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Speaker 1: ones that have higher velocity and higher altitudes definitely do escape.

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Speaker 1: And in the very early days of the Solar system.

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Speaker 1: The Earth had an atmosphere which came from these like

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Speaker 1: primordial gases, the hydrogen helium that was just sort of

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Speaker 1: like around, but it didn't last for very long. It

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Speaker 1: was not a very good atmosphere for having an atmosphere,

439
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, because first of all, the

440
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 1: Sun was gobbling up most of the hydrogen and the helium,

441
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 1: and then once the Sun formed, it was producing a

442
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 1: lot of radiation which stripped the inner planets of their atmosphere.

443
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 1: So like solar wind and heat from the Sun basically

444
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: blasted the Earth's atmosphere away. So it started off having

445
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 1: a scoop of hydrogen and helium and stuff that could

446
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 1: have made an atmosphere, but then it got blasted drop

447
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 1: basically by the early Sun.

448
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 5: So is solar wind well named? Is it like the

449
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,879
Speaker 5: sun is like and the stuff just sort of blows away,

450
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 5: or is it more like the photons that come out

451
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 5: from the Sun. It's like a billiard table, and it

452
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 5: like knocks the hydrogen in the helium out of our

453
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 5: atmosphere when they like bounce into each other.

454
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty well named because it's not just photons,

455
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: it's protons. It's electrons. It's actual particles. So if you

456
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: think about wind on Earth as like high moving particles

457
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,239
Speaker 1: that carry momentum and can push stuff over, and the

458
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: solar wind is really the same thing. It's stuff, it's

459
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: matter particles carring momentum, and it could like push a

460
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: solar sail, and it definitely blasts things off of the

461
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: Moon and Mars and early Earth.

462
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 5: Wait to go, good job name in that thing.

463
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: And that's one reason why you have, for example, rocky

464
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 1: Planet's in the interior of the Solar system, because that's

465
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff the Sun couldn't blast off and

466
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: like formed dens or blobs. And in the outer part

467
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: of the Solar system you have the gas giants because

468
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: they were far enough away from the Sun to get

469
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: to gobble up some of their own gas and to

470
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 1: hold onto it out there where the solar radiation is weaker.

471
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: So we got an atmosphere very early on, and so

472
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: did the Moon. As the Moon form from whatever primordial

473
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: blobs made it. It also must have had some helium

474
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: and some hydrogen, but that also was blasted clean by

475
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: the Sun. So we both started with an atmosphere and

476
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: both lost our atmosphere very quickly.

477
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 5: And we both both of them lost it entirely or

478
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 5: did earth retain some of.

479
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: It almost entirely, I mean never completely dry. There must

480
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: have been a little bit of hydrogen floating around, but

481
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: compared to the densities we have today, basically zero.

482
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, before we get into what our second atmosphere

483
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 5: was like, let's take a break.

484
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,719
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537
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552
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Speaker 5: Okay, so the first atmosphere we had and we lost,

553
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 5: But we know that we get to hold onto one

554
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 5: atmosphere eventually. So what happens to the next atmosphere?

555
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: This is like a Disney movie. You know, there's a

556
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: happy ending, right, So even when there's ups and downs,

557
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: you can sort of hold.

558
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 5: On, just like life.

559
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 13: Right.

560
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: But we're telling two stories simultaneously here. We're interested in

561
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: whether the Moon has an atmosphere, and we're telling the

562
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: story of the Earth, and the Moon's atmosphere is in

563
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: parallel to see why they have different fates. So the

564
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: Earth's got its atmosphere sort of rebooted from its interior.

565
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: You had like volcanoes and all sorts of crazy stuff

566
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: happening on the surface of the Earth which outgased like

567
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: water and CO two and sulfur dioxide and nitrogen. So

568
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: this is like the Earth burping and giving itself an

569
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: atmosphere just from those burps.

570
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 5: That makes it like substantially less beautiful to watch the sunset.

571
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 5: All those are earth burps making those colors.

572
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, let's go with burps rather than

573
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: any sort of other gaseous emission. But it's incredible that there

574
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: must have been so many volcanoes, so much sort of

575
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: tectonic action in the early Earth that you could release

576
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: vast quantities of gas.

577
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 5: Right, did this happen on Mars too? Or am I

578
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 5: getting too far a field by asking that? Because Mars

579
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: has volcanoes too, right.

580
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we think it happened on a lot of these planets.

581
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: And remember the scale though of the atmosphere. Even though

582
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: it seems vast to us and it seems dense, it's

583
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: really a very very thin layer on top of an

584
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: enormous sphere. The atmosphere goes up like a few hundred

585
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: kilometers depending on how you define it. But the Earth's

586
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: radius is six thousand kilometers, and so it's not that

587
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: surprising that all of that stuff uff could bubble up

588
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: enough gas to cover it with a very thin shell.

589
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: It happened on Earth, and it happened on Mars, and

590
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: we also think it might have happened on the Moon.

591
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: The Moon is not just like a lifeless, inert, frozen rock.

592
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: It had volcanoes. We can see this on the surface

593
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: of the Moon. There are lava planes underneath the Moon.

594
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: There are these lava tubes. It's all sorts of crazy

595
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: volcanic stuff that happened on the Moon.

596
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 5: How long ago did the volcanic activity end.

597
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: We don't know. We don't think that there are any

598
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: active volcanoes right now, but we have measured moon quakes

599
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: like you put these sensors on the surface of the Moon,

600
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: and there are moonquakes, right, and that suggests, yeah, that

601
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: there's stuff going on inside the Moon, that there's internal magma,

602
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: there's stuff like squashing around in there, which might mean,

603
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, a future volcanic action. Probably not, though the

604
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: crust is probably now cooled and sealed and all that

605
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: stuff is sunk too far towards the center to ever

606
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: crop up again.

607
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 5: Will it cool and stop moonquaking at some point?

608
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: Eventually? It probably will. Yeah, the same sort of thing

609
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: is happening on Mars and the Moon of course much

610
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: much smaller than the Earth, and so they cool faster.

611
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: And we think, for example, Mars still has some sort

612
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: of liquid or at least fluid core, and there's stuff

613
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: going on inside there, because we've measured Mars quakes as well.

614
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: But there isn't active volcanism on the Moon or on.

615
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 5: Mars, okay. And so did the Moon lose its second

616
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 5: atmosphere for the same reason that it lost its first,

617
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 5: or did the volcanoes never give it an atmosphere to

618
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: begin with?

619
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, and so we have to

620
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: understand not just how you get an atmosphere, but how

621
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: you hold onto it right. It's not enough to just

622
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: produce the gases either from the first scoop of Solar

623
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: system stuff or remaking it again from volcanoes. You got

624
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: to hold onto it right, because, as you say, there

625
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: are things out there in the Solar system that are

626
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of your atmosphere. And so the

627
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: solar wind didn't stop, right. The solar wind was around

628
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: in the early days when things were forming, and it's

629
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: still going on today. And so there are processes out

630
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: there which remove atmospheres, which work endst having an atmosphere

631
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: on the Earth and on the Moon and on Mars.

632
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: So this second atmosphere that the Moon did have, unfortunately

633
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: did get blown away.

634
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 5: Sorry Moon. The story always seems so sad for the Moon.

635
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: But I think it's really interesting to understand sort of

636
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: the balance between those effects. I like thinking about it

637
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: microscopically the way you were, like, think about the atmosphere

638
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: and individual particles of that gas, right, because in the end,

639
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: the atmosphere is not just like a huge blob of gas.

640
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: It really is made of individual particles, and the fate

641
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: of those individual particles is what determines the fate of

642
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and it's sort of weird to think about,

643
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: but gravity does operate on like individual atoms of gas, right,

644
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: Like the Earth pulls on each of those nitrogen atoms

645
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: and each of those oxygen atoms. It really is yanking

646
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: and keeping a lot of them on the surface of

647
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: the Earth. And that's of course, the biggest difference between

648
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: the Earth and the Moon is that the Earth is bigger,

649
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: it has more gravity, and as a lot of our

650
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: listeners said, the Moon just doesn't have the gravity to

651
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: hold on to its atmosphere.

652
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 5: Does the magnetosphere player role too, or is it mostly

653
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 5: about gravity.

654
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting topic because the earth magnetic field

655
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: does protect us from the solar wind. Right, the solar

656
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: wind are charged particles, These are protons, these are electrons.

657
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: What happens when a charged particle hits a magnetic field

658
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: is that it tends to bend. And so when charge

659
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: particles from the Sun hit our magnetic field, they don't

660
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: immediately just like slam into our atmosphere. They spiral around

661
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: these magnetic field lines and they go up to the

662
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: north pole or down to the South pole, and you

663
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: finally see them as like the Northern lights or the

664
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: southern lights. That's what causes them, this magnetic field, and

665
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: so initially you think, oh, well, this must protect us.

666
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: It's like a shield keeping our atmosphere in place. That's

667
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: sort of the prevailing view that a big magnetic field

668
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: will protect you like a shield. But other people feel like, actually,

669
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: a magnetic field is sort of like a sail. It's

670
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: going to capture a lot of solar wind and funnel

671
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: it into the planet, helping strip the atmosphere. And so,

672
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: like most things that involve like more than one particle,

673
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: the story is complicated and people have differing opinions about it.

674
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: But in the case of the Moon, there's very very

675
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: little magnetic field there. Like the Moon we don't think

676
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: has enough internal motion in its core to generate a

677
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: strong magnetic field. There are magnetic rocks on the surface

678
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: of the Moon, but it has no like big overall

679
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: magnetic field to shield it or to act like a sale.

680
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 5: Are those magnetic rocks big enough that you could try

681
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 5: to address the question about whether magnetic fields help or

682
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 5: hurt atmospheres or no, Because there's just no atmosphere on

683
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 5: the Moon, so you can't compare like the area around

684
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 5: magnetic rocks versus the area around non magnetic rocks.

685
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, in order to operate like a shield, I think

686
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: you really do need to have a planet sized magnetic field,

687
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: and there just isn't a coherent one on the Moon.

688
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: I mean, if you map the Moon's surface from magnetism

689
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: and they've done that, you do identify some spots with

690
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: more magnetic field or less. That's more a probe of

691
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: like what kind of metals are there just under the surface,

692
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: rather than telling you anything about the planet's atmosphere parts.

693
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 5: Was that the end of our atmosphere story? Or is

694
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 5: there a third phase?

695
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: So the Earth's atmosphere did keep evolving. Of course, Now

696
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: we have oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, which didn't come

697
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: from those volcanoes, right, That actually mostly came from life.

698
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: When little cells began to drink sunlight and do photosynthesis,

699
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: they turned a lot of the atmosphere into oxygen, though

700
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: surprisingly it took a long time.

701
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 12: Right.

702
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: You can't just pump oxygen into the atmosphere and have

703
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: it to stay there because oxygen is so reactive. Most

704
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: of the oxygen that was produced by life actually got

705
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: gobbled up by rocks because rocks like to get oxidized.

706
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: So if you put oxygen in your atmosphere, it will

707
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: weather the rocks or the surface of your planet will

708
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: get like rusty, for example, and that gobbles up a

709
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: lot of the oxygen. So it took hundreds of millions

710
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: of years of pumping oxygen into the atmosphere of the

711
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: Earth before it had like a measurable impact on what

712
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: actually was in the atmosphere. And today the Earth's atmosphere

713
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: is mostly nitrogen, like seventy percent. There's like twenty percent

714
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: oxygen and then like one percent are gone, zero point

715
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: oh three percent CO two and rising and then a

716
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff. But the Moon, of course doesn't

717
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: have life on it, and it didn't have and it

718
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: wasn't able to keep that atmosphere around, and so it

719
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: didn't get to have the third act of its atmosphere.

720
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 5: And is there like a physics definition for when your

721
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 5: atmosphere ends? Is it like, you know, oh what exactly

722
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 5: forty five kilominators the atmosphere ends, or is it like

723
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 5: a gradient where you just have a little bit less

724
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 5: and less as you go and there's no clear cutoff point.

725
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: It's totally a gradient. And there are definitions and they

726
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: all disagree with each other. You know, some people say, oh,

727
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: one hundred kilometers, some people say no, the threshold should

728
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: be sixty five kilometers, and people argue endlessly about it,

729
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure that we're really learning anything through

730
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: that argument. There are some interesting distinctions, Like the Earth's

731
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: atmosphere is mostly within thirty kilometers of the surface. It's

732
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: like ninety seven percent of the mass of the atmosphere.

733
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: But you know, you could draw that threshold anywhere, you

734
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: could say ninety nine percent or ninety nine point. In

735
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: order to get all of it, you have to go

736
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: out like ridiculously far, you know, hundreds of thousands of

737
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: kilometers to say this is the full envelope of the Earth.

738
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: But there is an interesting transition above a certain distance,

739
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: the density is so low that the atoms don't really

740
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: bump into each other, and so above what we call

741
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: the atmosphere something called the exosphere, where the density is

742
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: so low that atoms can travel for like hundreds of

743
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: kilometers without bouncing into each other. So the dynamics of

744
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: it are a little bit different. It's collision lists.

745
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 5: So usually where we get to by the end of

746
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 5: the episode, is you telling me something awful. So now

747
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 5: you've got me wondering is Earth going to lose its atmosphere?

748
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 5: So can you tell me about the ways, like summarize

749
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 5: for me the ways that atmosphere gets lost, and then

750
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 5: is Earth going to lose the atmosphere? Because probably that's

751
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 5: where this conversation is going.

752
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: Right, Your kids are going to be fine, Kelly. Now,

753
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: their kids and their kids' kids, you know, they're gonna

754
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: have to listen to the next generation to the podcast

755
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: to find out. But I think it's really fascinating to

756
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: think about the dynamic processes here, the things that are

757
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: changing the solar system. We usually think of the solar

758
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: system as so static. It's just like this is the

759
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: way it's been. It's been this way for thousands or

760
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: millions or maybe billions of years, and so it probably

761
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: has always been this way, and so it's always a

762
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: little bit shocking and surprising to discover that things are dynamic,

763
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: that things are changing. And the atmosphere is definitely in

764
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: that category because it is pretty tenuous. You know, it's

765
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: not easy to hold onto these gases, and there are

766
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: a lot of factors that are help blowing it away.

767
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: So we talked about the solar wind. You know, something

768
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: that people don't really appreciate, I think, is that the

769
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: solar wind comes in like a million miles per hour,

770
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: these particles coming from the Sun. Yeah, there's Zippen along, right,

771
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: and so like zero point one five percent of the

772
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: speed of light. It sounds like a low value, but

773
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: it's really really high. And nobody wants to get shot

774
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: at in the face with a proton at a million

775
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: miles per hour.

776
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 5: No, no, I'll pass.

777
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: And even if we didn't have the Sun trying to

778
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: strauss of our atmosphere, right, it does just boil away.

779
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: There is gravity is powerful, but at the upper edges

780
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: of the atmosphere there are fast moving particles and they

781
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: can just achieve escape velocity. You know, you have a

782
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: particle going fast enough, pointed in the right direction, it's

783
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: just gone. You know, you don't have to launch it

784
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: into outer space. It's just hot and fast moving and

785
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: it's just taken off. And so this definitely happens for

786
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: every planet, and it happens also for Earth. Now, heavier

787
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: planets are going to lose less because the escape velocity

788
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: is higher. But if you have lower mass gases like

789
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: hydrogen and helium. Then they just boil off.

790
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 5: Does it get replenished.

791
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: It doesn't really get replenished by new hydrogen or helium

792
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: or oxygen. That we do get a lot of space

793
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: dust every year, and so we get like tons of

794
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: space dust just like debris falling to Earth, and we're

795
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: also losing our atmosphere. We lose three kilograms per second

796
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: of hydrogen.

797
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 5: That sounds kind of scary, okay, but we'll probably be fine.

798
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: We're gonna be fine for about a billion years until

799
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: the Sun, when it's going to be like ten percent

800
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: brighter than it is now, is going to make it

801
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: hot enough on Earth for the oceans to boil, for

802
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: water to break down into hydrogen oxygen, and the Earth

803
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: will probably lose a lot of that hydrogen.

804
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 5: Time to invest in interstellar travel. All right, Well, you

805
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 5: know that news isn't as bad as some of the

806
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 5: news that you've delivered to me. But I still think

807
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 5: that we should take a break so that I can

808
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 5: recover for a moment. We'll be back soon.

809
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

810
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

811
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

812
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are US Dairy

813
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,200
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814
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

815
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

816
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

817
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

818
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleanan's equipment, washes the barn,

819
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases.

820
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,359
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821
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,759
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822
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823
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824
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,680
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825
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826
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,239
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827
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Speaker 1: dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

828
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839
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840
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841
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Speaker 5: Okay, we're back. Recap for me what we know about

863
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 5: the Moon's atmosphere.

864
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: So we think that the moon probably did get a

865
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: delivery of gas early on, right from the primordial soup,

866
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: and then it may have also gotten a refreshing of

867
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: its gas from volcanism. But we don't think that there's

868
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: much atmosphere there today, and the reason is that it

869
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: just doesn't have the mass to hold onto the stuff.

870
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't have the magnetic field. So if you ordered

871
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: a new atmosphere for the Moon, if you like went

872
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: up there and pumped a bunch of oxygen and nitrogen

873
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: and CO two onto the Moon, most of it would

874
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: get stripped away by the Sun or it would just

875
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: drift away. Because remember that the moon is really pretty tiny.

876
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it looks impressive in the sky, but it's

877
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: got like one percent of the mass of the Earth

878
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: and its surface gravity is very very low, so the

879
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: escape velocity of the Moon is just much lower than

880
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: it is here on Earth, which makes it easier for

881
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: the stuff to boil away.

882
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 5: So I feel like I would have, you know, as

883
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 5: someone who thinks about terror forming a little, I would

884
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 5: have thought, well, maybe we can, at great, great, great, great, great,

885
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 5: great great great expense, give the Moon a magnetic field

886
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 5: to hold onto an atmosphere. But now what you've told

887
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 5: me is that physics doesn't have that figured out yet,

888
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 5: and a magnetic field may or may not help, So

889
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 5: there's maybe nothing we can do about the Moon not

890
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 5: having an atmosphere.

891
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: Giving the Moon an atmosphere is definitely a hopeless engineering project.

892
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd need to build like a containment vessel, right,

893
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: you need to like put the whole Moon inside a

894
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: glass bulb or something crazy. Because it's not just that

895
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't have the gravity to hold onto that gas

896
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: envelope on its own. It's a pretty harsh environment. I mean,

897
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: the surface of the Moon gets to like two hundred

898
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: and fifty Fahrenheid one hundred and twenty celsius during the day,

899
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: which makes it pretty easy to boil this stuff off,

900
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: because remember it's a trade off between the temperature of

901
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: the gas, which means fast moving particles, and the gravity

902
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: of the object. If you have a small object, it's

903
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: only hope for holding on to its gas is if

904
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: that gas is very cold, meaning it's slow moving. But

905
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: if the gas is hot and the object is small,

906
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: then that stuff is just going to boil off into space.

907
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 5: All right, I'm not investing in that project.

908
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: And people have been wondering about a moon's atmosphere for

909
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: a long time. It's not for a very long time

910
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: that we've understood the source of the Earth's atmosphere. This

911
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: is a very complex story. It took us a long

912
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: time to piece together. And so it wasn't until like

913
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds of people were speculating about whether the

914
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: Moon had an atmosphere, and people considered, oh my gosh,

915
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: maybe the Moon doesn't have any air on it. They

916
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: just for a long time assumed that it would because

917
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: the Earth did, right, But it's not actually that hard

918
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 1: to tell even from the Earth that the Moon must

919
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 1: not have any atmosphere. And that's using the same technique

920
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. Remember, if we are studying exoplanet

921
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: if one thing we can do is look at the

922
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: light that passes through the atmosphere of those exoplanets to

923
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: see that there is an atmosphere and what's in it.

924
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: But you can do the same thing when you look

925
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: at the Moon. You can look at sunlight that passes

926
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: very very close to the Moon and see is it absorbed,

927
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: is it getting reflect is it getting scattered. You can

928
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: basically use the sun as a probe of what's right

929
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: around the Moon.

930
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 5: But we've been there, so we don't have to rely

931
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 5: on far off things. Did they try to measure an

932
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 5: atmosphere when they got there?

933
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: You're right, we have been there, and the apollmicians have

934
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: a long series of experiments trying to measure things on

935
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: the Moon, looking for trace atmosphere and really finding almost nothing.

936
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: Apollo seventeen saw a little bit of evidence for UV

937
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: emitting gases. But there's another big clue about the Moon's

938
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: atmosphere from the fact that we did go there. You

939
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: know those footprints that people left on the Moon, they're

940
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: still there. You like, write your name in the sand

941
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: on the Moon, and you could look at it twenty

942
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: years later from the surface of the Earth and read

943
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: your own handwriting, because there's basically no weather on the moon, right,

944
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: there's no wind of their like blow things around, and

945
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: so it's sort of amazing that the rover tracks and

946
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: the footprints they're all still up there.

947
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 5: That's great. You know. I've read that Pizza Hut was

948
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 5: looking into the cost estimate for like lasering its name

949
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 5: onto the moon. Yeah, it sounds like it would have

950
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 5: been a good long term investment because once it's up there,

951
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 5: it's not going away, right, But I think they did

952
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 5: determine it was probably not cost effective and actually might

953
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 5: make people.

954
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: Angry, And in a million years archaeologists are going to

955
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: be like, what is a pizza? And why did humans

956
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: think to write about it on the moon?

957
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 5: Right? And why are they keeping it in a hut?

958
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah?

959
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 5: It's bad idea, bad idea. So it seems like when

960
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 5: you and I talk about something, the answer is never

961
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 5: yes or no. The answer is always something like yes

962
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 5: but or yes. Well, so is there a well? Is

963
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 5: there something sort of like an atmosphere? Sometimes? Where's the

964
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 5: well actually part of this episode?

965
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a well actually barred to this episode,

966
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: otherwise it would have been very short and the answer

967
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: is that the Moon technically doesn't have an atmosphere, but

968
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 1: it does have an exosphere. Remember earlier we were talking

969
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: about the Earth having an exosphere. Up above the atmosphere,

970
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: there's this point where there are gases, but they're very diffuse,

971
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: they're very low density, so they're not bumping into each other.

972
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: The Moon does have some gas particles and some other

973
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: stuff floating around near it in this envelope that don't

974
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: bump into each other. And so we can say the

975
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: Moon has an exosphere, and you might wonder, like, well,

976
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: how's it possible for it to hold onto its exosphere

977
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: if it can't hold onto an atmosphere, And it's part

978
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: of this fascinating dynamic story. Basically, it can't hold onto it,

979
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: but it has sources of new material at the same

980
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: time as it has sinx ways to get rid of it.

981
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: So it's constantly losing its exosphere and getting it replenished.

982
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 5: Oh, tell me more about where it comes from.

983
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: So it's really a fun story. The Moon's exosphere actually

984
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: comes from itself, right, So things are constantly hitting the

985
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: Moon like you have meteorites, and then it includes like

986
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: really tiny little rocks that are hitting the surface of

987
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: the Moon. And we know this is happening because you

988
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: look up at the Moon and it's covered with craters, right,

989
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: which means that things are constantly impacting it. Well, what

990
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: happens if you don't have very strong gravity and you

991
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: get impacted with a meteorite is that it sprays a

992
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff up above the surface, and that stuff

993
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: doesn't all immediately float back down. Some of it's pretty light,

994
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: and it sort of like hangs out there a little bit,

995
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: like this cloud of dust particles.

996
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 5: So when you say a little bit, do you mean

997
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 5: like decades or like thirty minutes.

998
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think that for an individual particle,

999
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: it can vary a lot. Some of them might just

1000
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: stay in the moon for minutes, some of them might

1001
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: float around for days or years or decades. I don't

1002
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 1: think that any of those things are going to last

1003
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 1: for more than decades though.

1004
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 5: Okay, so it must be getting pounded pretty often then,

1005
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 5: Or does it have an exosphere sometimes but not all

1006
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 5: the time.

1007
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: No, it has a constant exosphere. But I have to

1008
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: emphasize that this is very very low density. We're talking

1009
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: about like a few hundred atoms per cubic centimeter. The

1010
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: Earth's atmosphere is like ten to the nineteen particles per

1011
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: cubic sit centimeter. So we're talking about something very very

1012
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: very very thin. You know, the ISS, the International Space Station,

1013
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: it flies through the Earth's exosphere, which is about as dense.

1014
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: So we're talking about the Moon having an exosphere which

1015
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: is similar to like what you would feel if you

1016
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: stuck your head out of the window and on the ISS,

1017
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: which I do not recommend.

1018
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 5: We do never recommend.

1019
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you have like a dog on the

1020
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: Moon in your rover, and maybe you've called your dog rover,

1021
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: don't encourage it to stick its head out because there's

1022
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: not really a lot there. But it is really fascinating

1023
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: sort of physics because it's not just like comet fragments

1024
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: and meteorites. It's other processes as well. We talked about

1025
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: the sun blasting is free of an atmosphere. Well, that

1026
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: solar wind also helps generate new atmosphere because each of

1027
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: those particles hitting the surface of the Moon kicks up

1028
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: stuff from the Moon's surface, right like knock stuff off

1029
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: the surface, which then becomes part of the exosphere. Some

1030
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: of that again settles back down but some of it doesn't.

1031
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: It floats around for a while before then getting like

1032
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: ionized by the Sun and then floating off into space.

1033
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 5: Does it get like pushed in a certain direction by

1034
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 5: the wind or is it just sort of like floating

1035
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 5: off in all directions.

1036
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: So there's an envelope surrounding the Moon of all this stuff,

1037
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: and it's constantly getting blown away. You know how comets

1038
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: have a tail, right, They have a tail because the

1039
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: solar wind is pushing them away. You imagine a comet

1040
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: has a tail because it's like streaking through the sky

1041
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like comic book wiggles or motion

1042
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: behind it. With the largest contribution for a comet's tail

1043
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: is actually the solar wind, and so the tail points

1044
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: away from the Sun, not always away from the direction

1045
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: of its motion. And the same thing is true of

1046
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: the Moon. It has this sort of short lived envelope

1047
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: that's constantly being refreshed, and it also has a tail.

1048
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: We can now see it from Earth using special telescopes,

1049
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: and we have to like block the light from the

1050
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: actual part of the Moon's surface, so we can see

1051
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: just around it, like the corona of the Moon. And

1052
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: they can see this envelope of sodium around the Moon,

1053
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: and it has this that's getting blown by the Sun

1054
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: away from the Moon.

1055
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 5: That's so cool. I wish I could see that in

1056
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 5: real life.

1057
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: If you google for it, there are these really cool

1058
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: videos where you can see the Moon going around the

1059
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: Earth and when the Moon is between the Earth and

1060
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: the Sun, the Earth is in the Moon's tail. Right,

1061
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: we're like eating the Moon's sodium dust.

1062
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 5: Is do we retain any of it or does it

1063
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 5: just pass through?

1064
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: We can retain it, you know, it just gets gathered

1065
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: by the Earth. But again, these are very very small amounts.

1066
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: Is the reason it took us a long time to

1067
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: even spot it. It was like nineteen ninety eight that

1068
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 1: we first saw the Moon's like sodium envelope and this tail.

1069
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: It takes a long time, and one reason that they

1070
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: actually spotted it is really cool is because of the

1071
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: Lionid meteor shower. You know, when there's a meteor shower,

1072
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: it means like spectacular things happening in our atmosphere. It

1073
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: also means more things hitting the Moon's surface, which kicks

1074
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: up more stuff, which enhances the Moon's exosphere and its tail.

1075
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: So during the nineteen ninety eight LIANDID meteor shower. The

1076
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: Moon's exosphere was tripled intensity. Heavy stuff, heavy stuff exactly.

1077
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of these processes going on, you know,

1078
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: like not just the solar wind and commentary impact, also

1079
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: just photons. This this fun process called desorption. We're used

1080
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: to the process of absorption where you can like gobble

1081
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: something up, but disorption is when a photon hits something

1082
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: and it kicks something off, just like when a meteor

1083
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: hits a surface and kicks off a rock. Now we're

1084
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: talking about a photon hitting an atom and giving it

1085
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: the energy to like escape whatever bonds it was in,

1086
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: and it comes off the surface. And so the Moon

1087
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: has all these various ways to replenish its exosphere and

1088
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: all these ways to lose it. So it's like more

1089
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: like a flow, right, It's not just like a gaseous pool.

1090
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: It's like this stuff flowing off the Moon and getting

1091
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: upbraded by everything that's around it.

1092
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 5: Does this mean that the other moons in the Solar

1093
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 5: system might also have tails?

1094
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: Almost certainly every object in the Solar System has an

1095
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: exosphere because they're not just alone, right, They're all in

1096
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: the wind. They're all getting constantly bombarded by little meteor

1097
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: fragments or big objects. So the Solar System is a

1098
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 1: very dynamic place and because of it, all these things

1099
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: are constantly providing sources for their own exosphere and then

1100
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: also losing them constantly. So we think that for example,

1101
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: en Slatus and Europa and Callisto and Ganymede and even

1102
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: dwarf planets like Series in the Asteroid Belt probably have

1103
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: their own little exosphere. Not quite an atmosphere, right, but

1104
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: a little exosphere of their own.

1105
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 5: Interesting, and you know, as somebody thinks about settlements, these

1106
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 5: exospheres will probably never be useful for anything because even

1107
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 5: if they were made out of useful stuff, it's so

1108
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 5: it would be so hard to extract it.

1109
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. There's probably no economic benefit there. But

1110
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: there is a lot of physics that you can learn

1111
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: because their collision lists, they're not interacting with each other.

1112
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: They're mostly just flying along and doing their own dance.

1113
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: Each one tells you something different about a physics process

1114
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 1: that's going on. It helps us sort of like isolate

1115
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: the things and study them in detail. So we think

1116
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: that each of these Solar System bodies probably have different

1117
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: sinks and different sources.

1118
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 12: Right.

1119
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: Some of them, for example, are really cold on the surface,

1120
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: and that can be a sink, it can be like that.

1121
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: There's so it's so cold that it's like sticking your

1122
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: tongue to a flagpole, that when those little molecules touch

1123
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: the surface, they stick on. So, the exospheres are a

1124
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: really cool way to learn a lot about the surface

1125
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: of these planets without even landing on them. Right, You

1126
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: can pass your satellite near one of these objects and

1127
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: sample them and learn a lot about what's going on

1128
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 1: in the surface without actually having to land.

1129
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 5: It's incredible. We can collect enough data from these very

1130
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 5: thin exospheres to learn this kind of stuff.

1131
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you need is a mass spectrometer, one of

1132
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: these devices that tells you like, oh, you have seventy

1133
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 1: two atoms of hydrogen or sixteen atoms of sodium. Can

1134
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: tell you exactly what the composition is, and that gives

1135
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: you a lot of clues as to how these things

1136
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: formed and also what's going on on their surface. Right now,

1137
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of my old friends from grad

1138
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: school who's now an expert in this. He's a space geoscientist,

1139
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: and he said, any rocky object in space gets bombarded

1140
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: by all sorts of crap that can liberate materials from

1141
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: the surface and form an exosphere.

1142
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 5: Is crap a technical term?

1143
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: I mean he's speaking as a scientist, he's a professor,

1144
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: so now it is a technical term.

1145
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 5: Oh fantastic. I didn't realize it was that easy.

1146
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: And I guess that means that, you know, even objects

1147
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 1: like the ISS which are getting hit by the solar

1148
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: wind and getting hit by all sorts of stuff, are

1149
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: also like liberating little bits, right, Spellation and abration are

1150
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: giving off little particles. And so even like an individual

1151
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: astronaut out there in space on an EVA must have

1152
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: their own little exosphere.

1153
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 5: WHOA. Somehow I feel like that would make me feel

1154
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 5: even more important to know I had my own little exosphere.

1155
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: Exactly, and you don't even have to burp it out.

1156
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 5: That's right. It's one thing we have an advantage we

1157
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 5: have over Earth.

1158
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: And so recent studies of the Moon suggest that, of

1159
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: course as sodium there. We can see sodium pretty clearly

1160
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: because it's very responsive in the UV, which is what

1161
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: these telescopes are good at looking at. But there's also

1162
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: helium there, there's argon there might even be like carbon

1163
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: bearying species up there in the Moon's exosphere.

1164
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 5: Oh, but there's not a lot of carbon on the Moon.

1165
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 5: Where's the carbon coming from.

1166
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: There's definitely not a lot, but some of it could

1167
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 1: be coming from the asteroid impacts, right. Asteroids sometimes they

1168
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: have silica in them, sometimes they have carbon in them.

1169
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: They sometimes even have complex organic molecules.

1170
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 5: Interesting.

1171
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: So when you look up at the daytime sky, you

1172
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: are seeing most of the blue from our atmosphere, but

1173
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: beyond that there is also the Earth's exosphere, which is

1174
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: so dilute that you cannot see it. It's black, it's invisible,

1175
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: but it's there. It's doing something. And everything else out

1176
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: there in the Solar System, the Moon, mercury, all the

1177
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: other objects which are quote bombarded by all sorts of crap,

1178
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: they also generate an exosphere. And that tells you that

1179
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: the Solar System is not a static thing. It's a dance.

1180
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: Everybody is giving off gas and accepting photons and interacting

1181
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: with each other. So the Solar System has an exciting future.

1182
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 5: You know, I usually think dances are better when they

1183
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 5: don't involve gas, but this one is beautiful.

1184
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 1: This is sort of how objects in the Solar System

1185
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: talk to each other and evolve. All right, thanks very

1186
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: much for joining us on this exploration of whether or

1187
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: not the moon has an atmosphere. To put a pin

1188
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: in it, I would say the moon does not have

1189
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: an atmosphere, but it definitely does have an exosphere. And

1190
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: thanks very much to our exo host Kelly for joining

1191
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: us today.

1192
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 5: Thanks. I had a great time. I was gonna say

1193
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 5: I had gassy time, but that just doesn't sound quit

1194
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 5: as good.

1195
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: I hope you didn't have gas, but I thought it

1196
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: was a pretty nice atmosphere.

1197
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 5: Agreed, that was a good pun.

1198
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: All right, Thanks for joining us. Everyone, tune in next time.

1199
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 5: All right, that was fun.

1200
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

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