WEBVTT - Covidwise: The First Coronavirus 'Exposure Notification' App Has Launched in Virginia

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, August eighteen. I'm Oscar Ramirez from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>The first bluetooth exposure notification app has launched in Virginia,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's called covid wise. The app uses Bluetooth chirps

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<v Speaker 1>to detect if you've been in close contact with someone

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<v Speaker 1>who has tested a positive. While it's very easy to use,

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<v Speaker 1>for it to really be effective and needs a widespread adoption,

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Fowler, tech columnists at The Washington Post joins us

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<v Speaker 1>for this useful app with very little privacy risk. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for joining us, Jeffrey bet I wanted to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>this app out of Virginia. It's called covid wise. It's

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<v Speaker 1>an exposure notification app using Bluetooth on your phone. So

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<v Speaker 1>you might have heard some other contact tracing apps with

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<v Speaker 1>regards to coronavirus, this one is a little different. Your

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<v Speaker 1>Bluetooth sends out pings basically, and if you've come into

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<v Speaker 1>contact with somebody for more than fifteen minutes and you're

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<v Speaker 1>within six feet distance, the app might tell you you've

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<v Speaker 1>been exposed. Then you can go get a test. All

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<v Speaker 1>that usually we bring you on on the podcast, Jeff,

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<v Speaker 1>when we're talking about privacy with apps and things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and in this case, you've kind of runed this thing

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<v Speaker 1>through many tests and you've kind of come to the

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<v Speaker 1>conclusion that your privacy really isn't at risk and it

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<v Speaker 1>would actually be a benefit if people, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people downloaded this thing so we can try to keep

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<v Speaker 1>this thing under control. So Jeff, tell us a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about COVID wise and the tests you ran through

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<v Speaker 1>it and what your conclusions were. Nobody was more surprised

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<v Speaker 1>than me. The big problem that a lot of these

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<v Speaker 1>apps and the idea of using our phones to help

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<v Speaker 1>track exposure to the coronavirus has had is that people, frankly,

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<v Speaker 1>just don't trust tech companies and that they just don't

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<v Speaker 1>trust the government. And I can't blame you. Companies have

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<v Speaker 1>done very little to earn that trust in Edward Snowden

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<v Speaker 1>taught us all that the government really can't be trusted either.

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<v Speaker 1>But that said, when Google and Apple the spring got

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<v Speaker 1>together and said, hey, they thought that they had figured

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<v Speaker 1>out a way to make our phones useful for figuring

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<v Speaker 1>out if we were exposed to someone with coronavirus, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was intrigued because they said that they were going

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<v Speaker 1>to build it from the ground up with privacy in mind.

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<v Speaker 1>So we finally got the first of these in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>in the state of Virginia called COVID Wise, and it

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<v Speaker 1>came out earlier in August, and the moment it was there,

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, we gotta test this, we gotta see

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<v Speaker 1>if they really live up to the promises. And from

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<v Speaker 1>everything we've been able to tell so far from our testing,

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<v Speaker 1>I had thirty five colleagues at the Post who live

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<v Speaker 1>in Virginia and they're all testing it for me. We

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<v Speaker 1>learned two things. First thing we learned is that it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to be really much of a privacy risk

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<v Speaker 1>here these apps. He's bluetooth to communicate two phones nearby.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't collect your location, they don't send information about

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<v Speaker 1>where you've been or her you've been in contact with

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<v Speaker 1>to the government. Is actually a pretty clever system. We

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<v Speaker 1>looked under the hood as well, just just a double check.

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<v Speaker 1>But they weren't sending out more information and then than

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<v Speaker 1>they claimed, and they weren't those first thing we learned.

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<v Speaker 1>The second thing we learned is we still don't know

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<v Speaker 1>actually if this idea is going to work very well.

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<v Speaker 1>Those thirty five Washington Post colleagues who are testing them,

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<v Speaker 1>none of them got an exposure notification from this app

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<v Speaker 1>over a candy period. Now that could be for many reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>It could be like they were just being really good

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<v Speaker 1>at social distancing. It could mean that not many people

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<v Speaker 1>around them we're using it, or it could mean that

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<v Speaker 1>there's some problems with the idea that the phones can

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<v Speaker 1>do this. But I don't think we were going to

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<v Speaker 1>really figure that out. Is if a lot more people

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<v Speaker 1>try it, And that's one of the interesting parts. Experts

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<v Speaker 1>estimate that up to sixty of a population needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be using these exposure apps for them to be effective.

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<v Speaker 1>So in Virginia that means they need about five million

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<v Speaker 1>people to download it. But in its first week's covid

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<v Speaker 1>wise got three hundred and eighty thousand downloads, so very

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<v Speaker 1>far short of that number needed. But there's other things

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<v Speaker 1>that are kind of become a problem with is this

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<v Speaker 1>is in Virginia just by itself, but there's no big

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<v Speaker 1>national system. So let's say you travel between states or

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<v Speaker 1>just whatever, you come into contact with somebody else, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>using a different app. It's not this COVID wise one,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's not all going to work so seamlessly.

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<v Speaker 1>America's app exposure unification strategy suffers from stame of the

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<v Speaker 1>some of the same problems as the rest of our

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<v Speaker 1>coronavirus strategy, and that it's very local based, very state based,

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<v Speaker 1>so as it's set up right now in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>every state health department would have to make their own

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<v Speaker 1>version of one of these apps. The Feds have not

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<v Speaker 1>expressed any interest, even though in other countries it is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the national government that's been working on these

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of apps. The good news is that about twenty

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<v Speaker 1>states now have said that they're working on these kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of apps. After Virginia, three more joined it, so we

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<v Speaker 1>already have four out there in the wild. And there

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<v Speaker 1>has been announced an effort that would make these apps

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<v Speaker 1>sort of communicate with each other a little bit so

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<v Speaker 1>that you could cross state borders with it. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>a work in progress, but not there yet. How does

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<v Speaker 1>the bluetooth aspect of it work, Because you said it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't really necessarily spy on you. The data is anonymized

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<v Speaker 1>as well, So tell us how that works, just so

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<v Speaker 1>we can have peace of mind. With it at least

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<v Speaker 1>this is kind of a fascinating idea that they use

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<v Speaker 1>with this technology. So, first of all, Bluetooth most people

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<v Speaker 1>might have associate with like headphones or like music play

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<v Speaker 1>in your car, and that was really the reason this

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<v Speaker 1>wireless technology was invented for these sort of very short

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<v Speaker 1>range transmissions. Well, turns out that Bluetooth also has the

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<v Speaker 1>capability of being able to roughly tell how far away

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<v Speaker 1>something is based on the strength of the signal. So

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<v Speaker 1>these engineers at Apple and Google got together and they said, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>what if we got made phones listened out for other

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<v Speaker 1>phones that they're nearby, and record something about the ones

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<v Speaker 1>that got six ft are closer. From Morgan fifteen minutes

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<v Speaker 1>to develop this system that they pushed out into recent

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<v Speaker 1>updates to Android and to iOS. So if you've updated

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<v Speaker 1>your phone software was somely you've got it on your

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<v Speaker 1>phone already that they're able to in the background send

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<v Speaker 1>out these little chirps a couple times a second that

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<v Speaker 1>just a very short anonymous codes. And the way it

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<v Speaker 1>works basically is you know when you're near someone for

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<v Speaker 1>sturing the period of time, your phone makes note of

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<v Speaker 1>that anonymous code of the phone that you're in the year,

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<v Speaker 1>and then if that person later has a coronavirus test

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<v Speaker 1>and and has the disease, their health department can give

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<v Speaker 1>them a code to enter into their app, and that

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<v Speaker 1>will signal the system to let everybody else know who's

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<v Speaker 1>come into contact with that patient's code that they should

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<v Speaker 1>go get tested for coronavirus as well. So throughout this

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<v Speaker 1>process the government doesn't know where you were or even

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<v Speaker 1>when or how you might have contracted the disease, and

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<v Speaker 1>in fact, the government doesn't like that about it. They

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<v Speaker 1>wish they had more information, and so that's been one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that's made it so slow. But at

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<v Speaker 1>no point can they really use it to track you

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<v Speaker 1>as the interesting part to me, well, as you said,

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest concern with these things is trust, and at

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<v Speaker 1>least it's a little reassuring that they built these apps

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<v Speaker 1>with that in mind, that your privacy is not really

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<v Speaker 1>at risk, and the risk overall to anybody downloading these

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<v Speaker 1>is pretty low. The biggest problem, it seems like, is

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<v Speaker 1>the widespread adoption. You need so many people to buy

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<v Speaker 1>into this and then put themselves into the apple if

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<v Speaker 1>they do have a positive test that other people can know.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's really going to be the biggest problem

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<v Speaker 1>with all of these, but at least for now, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>at least we have some type of working framework for this,

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<v Speaker 1>and if we do get into these apps, it could

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<v Speaker 1>be a benefit for a lot of people. The biggest

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<v Speaker 1>risk to you as an individual is you can get

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<v Speaker 1>a false positive because maybe sometimes the bluetooth signals don't

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<v Speaker 1>work super well and maybe you're picking up on the

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<v Speaker 1>guy who lives next door who you've not actually been

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<v Speaker 1>in contact with. So that is one thing that could happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Worst case scenario there you take a COVID test you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't need, Okay. The other risk really is that you

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<v Speaker 1>could get false negatives, which means that you think you're

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<v Speaker 1>safe even if you've not been. And so definitely anybody

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<v Speaker 1>installs one of these should take it with a grain

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<v Speaker 1>of salt. Is not magic. It won't shield you from

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<v Speaker 1>the virus, but it could give you some important information

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<v Speaker 1>to help you know when you might need to take

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<v Speaker 1>a test, and I think that's worth trying for everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Fowler tech calumnists at the way Shington Post, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you very much for joining us. You bet, I'm Oscar

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<v Speaker 1>Ramirez and this has been reopening America. Don't forget effort

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<v Speaker 1>today's big news stories. You can check me out on

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<v Speaker 1>the Daily Dive podcast every Monday through Friday, so follow

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<v Speaker 1>us on I Heart Radio or wherever you get your

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<v Speaker 1>podcast