Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. In December of two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi named Bill White was very angry and
Speaker 1: very online. That wasn't out of character for him. His
Speaker 1: habit of lashing out that anyone he disagreed with would
Speaker 1: eventually land him in federal prison. He threatened and timidated, docked,
Speaker 1: and harassed people for years, members of the jury that
Speaker 1: convicted white supremacist leader Matt Hale, a prosecutor handling a
Speaker 1: case against members of a white supremacist militia, and Florida
Speaker 1: tenants who sued him for housing discrimination, and his own
Speaker 1: ex wife. He was a menace on the Nazi message boards,
Speaker 1: and just before Christmas in two thousand and seven, he
Speaker 1: got into a fight with a former friend that would
Speaker 1: send that man into a deadly downward spiral. I'm Molly Conger,
Speaker 1: and this is the lost episode of Weird Little Guys.
Speaker 1: For all the side stories, digressions, tangents, and the months
Speaker 1: this episode has been lost, this has always been a
Speaker 1: story about Curtis Maynard, the Holocaust denial blogger who murdered
Speaker 1: his ex wife and then died by suicide in twenty ten.
Speaker 1: But if I'm being entirely honest with you, it's really
Speaker 1: only barely about Curtis Maynard. His story, told on its
Speaker 1: own is pretty short, and you already know it. It
Speaker 1: was in part one. He was a Holocaust denier who
Speaker 1: hoped to make a career as a white supremacist writer.
Speaker 1: He had a short rise to minor fame in his
Speaker 1: horrible little corner of the Internet, and then a sudden
Speaker 1: fall from grace. He spiraled after his second divorce, and
Speaker 1: he shot himself in the head while fleeing from the
Speaker 1: police after murdering the mother of his children. I'm not
Speaker 1: interested in a straightforward true crime narrative about an act
Speaker 1: of domestic violence. In the story about Curtis Baynard, that
Speaker 1: I think is more interesting. He's only a bit player.
Speaker 1: The stories playing out all around him in the last
Speaker 1: few years of his life are full of weird little guys,
Speaker 1: guys like Bill White. William Alexander White is not a
Speaker 1: man I'm quite ready to explain. Even still, his role
Speaker 1: in this story makes him unavoidable, and I will write
Speaker 1: about him eventually, because he's a man I've spent years
Speaker 1: thinking about and hundreds of hours reading, mostly by way
Speaker 1: of his voluminous vexatious court filings from federal prison. He'll
Speaker 1: have his day on the show, I promise, But until
Speaker 1: then he is going to keep popping up in a
Speaker 1: lot of other people's stories. He's almost always there. You
Speaker 1: might even remember him from a brief aside in an
Speaker 1: episode that aired last November, the episode about Ethan Melzer,
Speaker 1: the US Army soldier who leaked classified troop movements to
Speaker 1: what he thought was Al Qaeda, but it turned out
Speaker 1: to be a mentally ill Canadian teenager. In that episode,
Speaker 1: I was talking about the ideological shift within the neo
Speaker 1: Nazi group Adam Woffin, as some of its members gravitated
Speaker 1: towards the magical satanism of the Order of Nine Angles.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until several members of Adam Woffin ended
Speaker 1: up in court that it was revealed that Joshua Caleb
Speaker 1: Sutter had been working for the FBI for a decade
Speaker 1: and as a dedicated reader of Bill White's lawsuits against
Speaker 1: the government. I know that Bill had been saying that
Speaker 1: for years. I mean, Bill has a lot of theories
Speaker 1: about who might be an informant, but you can't deny
Speaker 1: he was right about Sutter. Bill White is a Nazi.
Speaker 1: That much is probably obvious by now, but he's also
Speaker 1: kind of a drama queen. Before he became a jail
Speaker 1: house lawyer, he was an incessant blogger, and in all
Speaker 1: his years in the movement, he was never not a problem.
Speaker 1: He was stirring up shit in a way that can
Speaker 1: only be described as pathological, and that might be because
Speaker 1: it was normally. I think it would be unfair to
Speaker 1: speculate about someone's mental health based on what they're writing
Speaker 1: in their blog. But in Bill's case, I have some
Speaker 1: proof because for some reason, he once filed a complete
Speaker 1: copy of his own psyche vow as an exhibit in
Speaker 1: a court case. So I can tell you that several
Speaker 1: prison psychiatrists and court appointed forensic psychologists have diagnosed Bill
Speaker 1: White with narcissistic personality disorder. That's a term that's seen
Speaker 1: a lot of abuse and popular online discourse, reducing it
Speaker 1: to a meaningless epithet her that someone who's behaving badly,
Speaker 1: But it is a real clinical diagnosis, albeit a controversial one,
Speaker 1: and it's a term with an actual meaning. Drawing directly
Speaker 1: from one of his evaluations, the doctor wrote the essential
Speaker 1: features of narcissistic personality disorder are a pervasive pattern of grandiosity,
Speaker 1: need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins in
Speaker 1: early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.
Speaker 1: Histrionic traits include a propensity for needing to be the
Speaker 1: center of attention, while antisocial traits refer to engaging in
Speaker 1: activities that run counter to mainstream social norms. Now, I
Speaker 1: want to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone with
Speaker 1: a personality disorder is a bad person. Having a personality
Speaker 1: disorder doesn't make you a Nazi, it doesn't make you
Speaker 1: a criminal. It just so happens that Bill White has
Speaker 1: a personality disorder and he is a Nazi and a criminal.
Speaker 1: They don't always go together. This is a difficult condition
Speaker 1: to live with. There's no cure, and the nature of
Speaker 1: the condition often means that those living with it don't
Speaker 1: feel like they need treatment. But there are people who
Speaker 1: manage to live relatively normal lives with the support of
Speaker 1: things like dialectical behavior therapy. So my intention is not
Speaker 1: to slander everyone living with a personality disorder, but I
Speaker 1: do think the diagnosis sheds some light on Bill White's behavior.
Speaker 1: He needs to be right. He needs to be the
Speaker 1: center of attention. He'll do almost anything to get that attention,
Speaker 1: positive or negative, it barely matters, and any perceived slight
Speaker 1: against him all the justification He needs to go absolutely
Speaker 1: nuclear in response. The white power movement is full of
Speaker 1: men who attack their enemies, and there are plenty of
Speaker 1: them in the movement going after each other. There are
Speaker 1: power struggles, ideological disagreements, and just plain friction between guys
Speaker 1: with poor social skills. None of that is that unusual.
Speaker 1: But even in that milieu, Bill White stands out because
Speaker 1: Bill White had beef with everybody, and it was Bill
Speaker 1: White and his insatiable need for attention that drew Curtis
Speaker 1: Maynard into an online argument in December of two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven. It was Bill White's irresistible urge to lash
Speaker 1: out at anyone who crossed him that ended up ruining
Speaker 1: Curtis Maynard's reputation among the racists who read his Holocaust
Speaker 1: denile blog. On December nineteenth, two thousand and seven, Bill
Speaker 1: White made a pretty big claim. He logged onto Vanguard
Speaker 1: News Network, a neo Nazi forum, and started a thread
Speaker 1: with the title ron Paul lies about lack of involvement
Speaker 1: with white nationalists, the Post read comrades. I have kept
Speaker 1: quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while because
Speaker 1: I didn't see any need to say anything that would
Speaker 1: cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his
Speaker 1: campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about
Speaker 1: Ron Paul's extensive involvement in white nationalism. Both Congressman Paul
Speaker 1: and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront,
Speaker 1: set American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others
Speaker 1: at the Tara Tai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia on Wednesdays.
Speaker 1: This is part of a dinner that was originally organized
Speaker 1: by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, and Joe so Braun and
Speaker 1: has since been mostly taken over by the Council of
Speaker 1: Conservative Citizens. I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and
Speaker 1: his aides there, and been invited to his offices in
Speaker 1: Washington to discuss policy. For his spokesman to call white
Speaker 1: racialism small ideology and claim white activists are wasting their
Speaker 1: money trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a
Speaker 1: white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept
Speaker 1: his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet
Speaker 1: because of his political position. I don't know that it
Speaker 1: is necessarily good for Paul to expose this. However, he
Speaker 1: really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism, and
Speaker 1: for him to deny that in the belief he will
Speaker 1: be more respectable by denying it is outrageous. And I
Speaker 1: hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism because
Speaker 1: they think it is not fashionable. Bill White, Commander American
Speaker 1: National Socialist Workers Party, Now, is that true? The short
Speaker 1: answer is legally no. I won't say that this Nazi
Speaker 1: is telling the truth. Is it possible? Kind of yeah?
Speaker 1: Probably not, not exactly, not down to the details, but
Speaker 1: maybe a little yeah. But we'll get to that almost instantly,
Speaker 1: I mean, with a curious quickness. Conservative blogger Charles Foster
Speaker 1: Johnson picked up the story and he got a post
Speaker 1: up on his blog Little Green Footballs within hours of
Speaker 1: Bill posting this on the Nazi Forum and Johnson dug up.
Speaker 1: But looked like pretty damning receipts. Ron Paul's campaign finance
Speaker 1: reports filed with the Federal Election Commission do show that
Speaker 1: someone used campaign funds at a restaurant called Tara Tie
Speaker 1: in Arlington eleven times in two thousand and seven, spending
Speaker 1: about forty dollars once a month or so. Now, there's
Speaker 1: no proving anything here. This was too many years ago,
Speaker 1: and no one who could still tell the truth about
Speaker 1: this has any incentive to do so. But I can
Speaker 1: tell you what I think happened here. Bill White made
Speaker 1: up a pretty convincing story that has some elements of truth,
Speaker 1: but he messed up some of the details. The white
Speaker 1: nationalists dinner meetings he's talking about were real, but he
Speaker 1: got the name of the restaurant wrong. Until his death
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, white supremacist writer Sam Francis
Speaker 1: did host monthly yet togethers at a Thai restaurant in
Speaker 1: northern Virginia, but that restaurant was called Sala Tie, not
Speaker 1: Tara Tai. It just so happens that Tara Tai was
Speaker 1: about a quarter a mile away from Ron Paul's campaign
Speaker 1: headquarters in two thousand and seven, So far from being
Speaker 1: a smoking gun that proves Ron Paul was going to
Speaker 1: a monthly Nazi dinner party, It just looks like that
Speaker 1: was the preferred takeout destination for someone on the campaign staff.
Speaker 1: But in two thousand and seven, those white nationalist dinners
Speaker 1: at Sala Tie were still going on, organized by a
Speaker 1: longtime Council of Conservative Citizens member named Peter Gemma. Gemma
Speaker 1: responded to White's allegation, writing.
Speaker 2: I read those dinners. Rob Paul was never there, nor
Speaker 2: did we run some sort of neo Nazi meeting. We
Speaker 2: had academics and activists of national repute. The audience were
Speaker 2: people who work at government, businessmed and grassroots types too.
Speaker 2: Bill White ever came to the meetings. He didn't use
Speaker 2: his real name. He doesn't even get the name of
Speaker 2: the restaurant correctly.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's telling the whole truth here. Jemma
Speaker 1: claims he never saw Ron Paul or Bill White, and
Speaker 1: that might be true. But he also claims the dinners
Speaker 1: weren't Nazi meetups, and that's not true. He was at
Speaker 1: the time the media relations director for a nonprofit called
Speaker 1: the National Policy Institute. Yes, that National Policy Institute, the
Speaker 1: same one that would later appoint Richard Spencer as chairman,
Speaker 1: and Peter Jemma had more than a few ties to
Speaker 1: the movement. He was quite publicly associated with this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, at least as far back as two thousand
Speaker 1: and four, when he gave a speech at the annual
Speaker 1: Holocaust Denial conference held by the Institute for Historic Review.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and five, the Washington Post ran a
Speaker 1: story about him hosting a book signing for David Irving,
Speaker 1: but for some reason, it took until twenty eighteen for
Speaker 1: the Republican Party Committee in Sarasota County, Florida to vote
Speaker 1: to remove him from their executive committee. He passed away
Speaker 1: in January of twenty twenty five, and his obituary mentions
Speaker 1: his work as a staffer for Ronald Reagan and says
Speaker 1: he wrote articles for many publications, but the obituary does
Speaker 1: not mention that many of those publications were explicitly white
Speaker 1: supremacist outlets like Occidental Quarterly and v Dair. But on
Speaker 1: the subject of these dinners, we have a lot of
Speaker 1: claims from a lot of men who aren't telling the truth.
Speaker 1: Bill White is claiming he saw ron Paul attend. Were
Speaker 1: definitely real. I mean, the dinners were real. It's just
Speaker 1: a question of who was there. We know they were
Speaker 1: attended by the intellectual giants of the white supremacist world,
Speaker 1: such that those exist as well as white supremacists with
Speaker 1: connections to more mainstream conservative politics. Peter Jemma himself was
Speaker 1: a senior staff member of Pat Buchanan's two thousand election campaign,
Speaker 1: and he probably met Bill White back then. White claims
Speaker 1: that he led the petition drive for Buchanan's candidacy in Maryland. Sure,
Speaker 1: Bill White's a liar, But a photo taken by a
Speaker 1: Washington Post photographer in March of two thousand shows Bill
Speaker 1: White standing right behind Pat Buchanan at a campaign event
Speaker 1: in Bethesda. But the question at hand is still, did
Speaker 1: Ron Paul ever attend those dinners? I don't know.
Speaker 3: When.
Speaker 1: Virginia Heffernan, writing for the New York Times, picked up
Speaker 1: the story from the blogisphere. The Ron Paul campaign quickly
Speaker 1: issued a denial, and The New York Times pulled the
Speaker 1: story and issued a correction. The campaign flatly denied that
Speaker 1: Ron Paul had ever attended such a dinner or met
Speaker 1: Bill White, although they did admit that Norm Singleton, ron
Speaker 1: Paul's legislative director, had met Bill White quote at a
Speaker 1: dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton
Speaker 1: expressed his indignation that the views espoused by White to
Speaker 1: the organizer of the dinner. So it seems like the
Speaker 1: nugget of truth in Bill's post as that he did
Speaker 1: meet a man who worked for Ron Paul at one
Speaker 1: of those Nazi dinners, but it was a few years ago,
Speaker 1: so he didn't quite get the name of the restaurant right,
Speaker 1: And the timing tells us something about Bill White's decision
Speaker 1: to make this story up too. December nineteenth, two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven, was the exact same day that the Ron
Speaker 1: Paul campaign issued a statement that they would not be
Speaker 1: returning a five hundred dollars campaign donation made by Don Black,
Speaker 1: the webmaster of the Naziside Stormfront. Don Black was a
Speaker 1: vocal supporter of the Paul campaign, as were many Stormfront posters,
Speaker 1: and Don Black boasted on Stormfront that dozens of his
Speaker 1: members were active campaign volunteers and donors. A photo had
Speaker 1: recently surfaced of Ron Paul and Don Black at a
Speaker 1: campaign event in Fort Lauderdale in September. Actually, if you
Speaker 1: look at Don Black's Wikipedia page right now, the photo
Speaker 1: of his face on that page is actually cropped from
Speaker 1: this picture. So if you go to Don Black's Wikipedia page,
Speaker 1: there's a picture and it's just Don Black's face. But
Speaker 1: know that if you zoom out, Ron Paul is right there.
Speaker 1: By December, there were calls for Ron Paul to return
Speaker 1: these Nazi campaign donations, and it's obvious that this is
Speaker 1: the story Bill White is responding to. He quotes directly
Speaker 1: from the campaign press release that had been issued just
Speaker 1: a few hours earlier, with a Paul campaign aid saying quote,
Speaker 1: if someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to
Speaker 1: Ron thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's
Speaker 1: wasted his money. End quote. But Ron Paul himself refused
Speaker 1: to disavow the support of what nationalists, saying quote, if
Speaker 1: they want to endorse me, they're endorsing what I do
Speaker 1: or say. It has nothing to do with endorsing what
Speaker 1: they say. I think the best explanation is that Ron
Speaker 1: Paul hurt Bill White's feelings. That small Ideology's comment clearly
Speaker 1: got under his skin. He echoed it in his post.
Speaker 1: He felt disrespected. If Nazee money is good enough for
Speaker 1: Ron Paul, why does Ron Paul think he's too good
Speaker 1: for Nazis? So he lashed out. Ron Paul hurt him,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to hurt Ron Paul. Right back, and
Speaker 1: he was media savvy enough to understand that Paul was
Speaker 1: particularly vulnerable at that moment when it came to stories
Speaker 1: about his associations with white supremacists. So my best guess
Speaker 1: here is that the claim he's making is not technically
Speaker 1: entire true. I don't think it's likely that Bill White
Speaker 1: ever sat at a dinner table with Ron Paul at
Speaker 1: a meetup organized by the Council of Conservative Citizens at
Speaker 1: a Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia. I don't think every
Speaker 1: single one of those details was ever true. At the
Speaker 1: same time, I do think it's almost certainly true that
Speaker 1: Bill White met Ron Paul's legislative director Norm Singleton at
Speaker 1: one of those Nazi dinners back in two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: That seems to align with the campaign's owned admissions. There
Speaker 1: are things in the story that are definitely true. Paul
Speaker 1: campaign's staff did have dinner with white supremacists. Ron Paul
Speaker 1: did take money from Nazis. Nazis did volunteer for the campaign.
Speaker 1: Ron Paul did speak at events organized by white supremacists.
Speaker 1: And then there are elements that could be true. Things
Speaker 1: you can't prove or disprove, but sound possible. Did Ron
Speaker 1: Paul campaign staff attend other dinners? Did Paul himself ever
Speaker 1: meet privately with any of the men from those dinners?
Speaker 1: We don't know. Bill White invented a story that has
Speaker 1: a loose lineage that trace us back to some kind
Speaker 1: of truth.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: He made up a story based in some snippets of truth,
Speaker 1: and he crafted this story to capitalize on the headline
Speaker 1: news of the day to soothe his own ego. He
Speaker 1: didn't care what happened to Ron Paul. He didn't care
Speaker 1: about anything other than creating a shit storm that he
Speaker 1: could be in the middle of. But honestly, he didn't
Speaker 1: actually need to make things up if he wanted to
Speaker 1: remind everyone that Ron Paul was palling around with white Soprists.
Speaker 1: Just two months before Bill White made that post, back
Speaker 1: in October of two thousand and seven, Ron Paul had
Speaker 1: in fact been the guest of honor at a different
Speaker 1: restaurant at an event hosted by Nazis. And there's no
Speaker 1: doubt this time about whether or not Ron Paul accepted
Speaker 1: the invitation, because, in addition to the two hundred sum
Speaker 1: people packed into the Boulevard Wood Grill in Arlington, Virginia.
Speaker 1: There were cameras. A c SPAN camera crew captured the entire.
Speaker 4: Event before we began. I'd like to thank there are
Speaker 4: other members of the executive board, Dan McCarthy and Kevin
Speaker 4: Deanna and Marcus Epstein who actually founded the club just
Speaker 4: around a year and a half ago, and their Tyler's
Speaker 4: efforts are invaluable. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Do you recognize that voice? I think some of you might.
Speaker 1: Maybe you're normal and that fifteen second clip didn't make
Speaker 1: you almost drop your phone in surprise as you demanded
Speaker 1: to know. Is that Richard Spencer? Because it is. That's
Speaker 1: Richard Bertrand. Spencer, best known for such highlights as getting
Speaker 1: punched in the face on camera at Trump's first inauguration
Speaker 1: or having a screeching meltdown at an Airbnb because he
Speaker 1: didn't get to give his speech at the Unite the
Speaker 1: Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, ten years before
Speaker 1: he helped plan the Nazi rally that killed Heather Higher,
Speaker 1: he had just dropped out of a PhD program at
Speaker 1: Duke University to pursue his career in racism full time.
Speaker 1: He was living in Arlington and working as the assistant
Speaker 1: editor at the American Conservative magazine. The event Ron Paul
Speaker 1: was speaking at that night was put on by a
Speaker 1: group called the Robert A. Taft Club, founded a year
Speaker 1: earlier by Richard Spencer, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein. Epstein
Speaker 1: described the club as a forum for lively debate about
Speaker 1: the important issues that divide the right. And while Richard
Speaker 1: Spencer's name is probably the only one of those three
Speaker 1: that sounds familiar to you, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein
Speaker 1: were and are deeply entrenched in white supremacist circles. Kevin
Speaker 1: Dianna and Marcus Epstein met in college at William and Mary,
Speaker 1: where they both wrote for and edited these school's right
Speaker 1: leaning student newspaper, The Remnant. Both men were named as
Speaker 1: defendants when the paper was sued for defamation in two
Speaker 1: thousand and six. The paper had been putting up flyers
Speaker 1: all over campus naming a female student who had recently
Speaker 1: accused another student of rape. In their articles defending this practice,
Speaker 1: which they justified by accusing women of lying about being raped,
Speaker 1: they brought up what they felt was a similar case,
Speaker 1: charges against a fraternity brother that had been dropped in
Speaker 1: two thousand and four. The editors of the Remnant didn't
Speaker 1: seem at all troubled by complicated truths like the fact
Speaker 1: that the victim had been a sixteen year old high
Speaker 1: school girl, or that the fraternity brother accused of raping, sodomizing,
Speaker 1: and penetrating her with an object admitted to getting the
Speaker 1: miner drunk to have sex with her. He was ultimately
Speaker 1: convicted only of two counts of contributing to the delinquency
Speaker 1: of a minor. The paper called that teenage girl a
Speaker 1: wannabe victim, a con artist, a liar, and a fraud.
Speaker 1: The lawsuit was settled out of court just a few
Speaker 1: weeks before this event with Ron Paul. After graduation, Kevin
Speaker 1: Deanna and Marcus Epstein founded a group called Youth for
Speaker 1: Western Civilization and started establishing chapters of this white supremacist
Speaker 1: student group on college campuses future where Little Guy's subject,
Speaker 1: Matthew Heinbach would later serve as president of the chapter
Speaker 1: of Youth for Western Civilization at Tawson University in Maryland,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Deanna, under the pseudonym Gregory Hood still writes
Speaker 1: for American Renaissance, the white nationalist outlet that holds annual
Speaker 1: race science conferences. Just a few months before this event
Speaker 1: with Ron Paul, Marcus Epstein was stumbling home drunk one
Speaker 1: night when he saw a black woman minding her own business.
Speaker 1: Unable to control himself, apparently, he screamed the N word
Speaker 1: at her and then charged at her and, according to
Speaker 1: multiple news reports about this incident, tried to karate chop her.
Speaker 1: He would eventually plead guilty to assaults, but his boss,
Speaker 1: Congressman Tom Tancredo, didn't think the incident was serious enough
Speaker 1: to fire him, and Pat Buchanan's sister, Babe Buchanan, told
Speaker 1: reporters that the incident was out of character for Marcus
Speaker 1: and chalked it up to some problems in his personal life.
Speaker 1: So in the fall of two thousand and seven, Ron
Speaker 1: Paul was photographed with his arm around Stormfront webmaster Don Black,
Speaker 1: and he got a standing ovation after an introduction from
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer and an event organized by a guy who'd
Speaker 1: recently assaulted a woman he didn't know just because she
Speaker 1: was black. Bill White didn't need to make things up
Speaker 1: if he wanted to draw attention to Ron Paul's cozy
Speaker 1: relationship with men who were outlaw interracial marriage or whatever.
Speaker 1: But Bill White loves to start drama, so he logged
Speaker 1: onto that Nazi message board and he started posting. The
Speaker 1: response was intense. There were four hundred and forty one
Speaker 1: replies to his original thread. Most of the posters on
Speaker 1: Vanguard News seemed to have been ardent Ron Paul supporters,
Speaker 1: so they were frustrated with Bill for hurting Ron Paul's campaign.
Speaker 1: But beyond that, opinions varied. Some users felt very confident that,
Speaker 1: of course Ron Paul was really one of them, but
Speaker 1: they understood that it would be political suicide for him
Speaker 1: to admit it. Others felt that Ron Paul wasn't quite
Speaker 1: aligned with them in that way, but they agreed with
Speaker 1: him about a lot of other issues, and his campaign
Speaker 1: events were a great recruitment pool for the movement. One
Speaker 1: user posted, I know a lot of white supremacists involved
Speaker 1: in the Ron Paul campaign. I wish he wouldn't shun
Speaker 1: away his true supporters. Another said Bill's revelation wasn't even news.
Speaker 1: Everybody in DC knows about Ron Paul's white nationalist connections.
Speaker 1: Former Klansmen and National Alliance organizer Ron Dogget weighed in,
Speaker 1: saying he'd been to those dinners plenty of times, and
Speaker 1: he never saw Ron Paul. Mostly people were pissed off
Speaker 1: at Bill. One poster wrote, You're just a goddamn loose
Speaker 1: cannon who wants to be in the limelight and you
Speaker 1: don't care what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 1: Why do you pack up your shit and leave and
Speaker 1: try to incriminate and poison the well against someone other
Speaker 1: than Ron Paul? Another politely chimed in, writing, while I
Speaker 1: find this information interesting and intriguing, I have to join
Speaker 1: the chorus here and asking how the fuck do this
Speaker 1: help Ron Paul? In white nationalism? Todd van Bieber, a
Speaker 1: man whose faces badly scarred from the time he nearly
Speaker 1: blew himself up trying to build bombs. He planned to
Speaker 1: set off at Disney World to distract the police while
Speaker 1: Nazi's Rob Banks to fund a race war was exasperated.
Speaker 1: He posted asking Bill if this grand standing was more
Speaker 1: important than ending the Federal Reserve. James Leshkevich, posting as
Speaker 1: Yankee Jim, seemed to be having a good time watching
Speaker 1: the drama unfold. Every dozen posts or so, there's Yankee
Speaker 1: Jim making some wise crack, posting laughing emojis, and comments
Speaker 1: like you sure do know how to get attention. Bill
Speaker 1: The poster known as Yankee Chim, died two months later.
Speaker 1: He hanged himself in his garage after beating his wife
Speaker 1: to death. Curtis Maynard, an active forum poster and rabbid
Speaker 1: Ron Paul supporters, the thread later that night, and he
Speaker 1: made the one hundred and forty second post in the thread.
Speaker 2: Sounds like bullshit to me. I will say that RP
Speaker 2: isn't afraid of talking with those holding an alternative view,
Speaker 2: but it seems a little far fetched that he'd be
Speaker 2: knowingly meeting with and shaking the hands of Bill White
Speaker 2: and any stormfronters. I'm calling total bullshit for now.
Speaker 1: And then Curtis Maynard jumped into action to defend Ron
Speaker 1: Paul's honor. He fired off a blog post accusing Bill
Speaker 1: White of secretly working for Massade. That's right. The most
Speaker 1: logical explanation he could come up with was that Bill
Speaker 1: White wasn't a real Nazi at all, but he was
Speaker 1: a Jewish agent provocateur trying to prevent Nazis from getting
Speaker 1: Ron Paul elected president. In Curtis Maynard's opinion, that picture
Speaker 1: of Ron Paul with Don black Well that's obviously fake.
Speaker 1: Everybody knows Don Black is fat and that man looks thin.
Speaker 1: Maynard frantically scoured the internet for proof that Bill White
Speaker 1: was wrong, and he posted links to news coverage he
Speaker 1: felt refuted those claims. After a couple of posts like that,
Speaker 1: another user warned him, writing, don't egg him on. If
Speaker 1: you're not careful, he'll out every one he knows of.
Speaker 1: This is how William works. Curtis's post was the last
Speaker 1: word in that thread. On Christmas Eve, he wrote, if
Speaker 1: the elections were held today and the Jews weren't able
Speaker 1: to manipulate the tally, Ron Paul would receive the majority
Speaker 1: of the vote of both parties. Anyone telling you any
Speaker 1: differently is either stupid, delusional, or complicit. In another thread,
Speaker 1: someone linked to Curtis's blog post accusing Bill White of
Speaker 1: being a Jewish agent. Now that thread, that one got
Speaker 1: out of hand, devolving into an argument between April Gade
Speaker 1: and Alicia Strome. Those aren't really names you need to
Speaker 1: know for this story, but if you are an avid listener,
Speaker 1: you have heard them before. Alicia you might remember as
Speaker 1: the second wife of Nazi pedophile Kevin Alfred Strone from
Speaker 1: the very first episode of the show. April Gade is
Speaker 1: the mother of the twin girls who made up the
Speaker 1: short lived white power music duo Brush and Blue, and
Speaker 1: in the thread, Alicia shamed April for parading her daughters
Speaker 1: around in Hitler T shirts to make money, and April
Speaker 1: reminded Alicia that she said nothing about her ex husband
Speaker 1: using pictures of the twins for sexual gratification. It really
Speaker 1: went off the rails. But the strangest part is how
Speaker 1: the conversation ended. Curtis chimed in. Replying to a picture
Speaker 1: of April Gade's daughters in those Hitler T shirts.
Speaker 3: He wrote, quote, is it wrong of me to take
Speaker 3: my six month old daughter and use women's makeup to
Speaker 3: paint a beautiful Hitler mustache on her upper lip?
Speaker 2: She's so cute, looks just like baby Hitler. She has
Speaker 2: those brown locks sweeping across her forehead and everything.
Speaker 1: The site was on fire for days, multiple threads, hundreds
Speaker 1: of posts. Scores of users were mad at Bill White.
Speaker 1: They were yelling at him, making fun of him, calling
Speaker 1: him names, digging up old allegations and coming up with
Speaker 1: new ones. And maybe he tried to ruin some of
Speaker 1: them too. I don't know, but I know he couldn't
Speaker 1: forgive Curtis. In January two thousand and eight, Curtis Maynard
Speaker 1: was needling Bill White. He was still outraged at the
Speaker 1: damaged Bill had done to Ron Paul, and he wasn't
Speaker 1: going to let it go. He created a fake website
Speaker 1: for White's organization, the ANSWP, and declared himself the chairman
Speaker 1: of it. He wrote open letters to Bill White on
Speaker 1: his blog and on the forums, trying to goad him
Speaker 1: into another fight. In March, he gleefully reported that there
Speaker 1: had been a fire at one of Bill White's rental
Speaker 1: properties in Virginia, and he accused White of hiring an
Speaker 1: anti racist organization to set the fire in order to
Speaker 1: bolster his reputation for being racist against his black tenants.
Speaker 1: It's a very roundabout, complicated sort of theory. In the
Speaker 1: early months of two thousand and eight, a supporter of
Speaker 1: Bill's made posts on the forums calling for Curtis to
Speaker 1: be banned from the site. So another user made a
Speaker 1: pull one of them should be banned, but which one
Speaker 1: Bill lost. People wanted Bill White banded from the forums
Speaker 1: more than they wanted to ban Curtis Maynard and Bill
Speaker 1: responded by complaining that well, Curtis actually broke the forum's
Speaker 1: most important rule. Posters on Vanguard News Network are not
Speaker 1: allowed to accuse other posters of being Jewish unless you
Speaker 1: have proof. In May, Bill claimed that Curtis Maynard didn't
Speaker 1: even exist and that the account was actually run by
Speaker 1: a black gay man hired by the Southern Poverty Law
Speaker 1: Center to make annoying posts that would make Nazis look bad.
Speaker 1: When challenged to name any white activist who could vouch
Speaker 1: for him, Curtis snapped back that he was friends with
Speaker 1: David Duke. As two thousand and eight were on, his
Speaker 1: posts grew increasingly paranoid and hostile. He wasn't just accusing
Speaker 1: Bill White of being secretly Jewish, working for the government,
Speaker 1: or both. He was starting to accuse other users on
Speaker 1: the forums who was spiraling, And for as much as
Speaker 1: everyone on the forum hated Bill White, they were starting
Speaker 1: to turn on Curtis Maynard too. And then in September
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, Bill White made another accusation. They'd
Speaker 1: been making things up about each other for nearly a
Speaker 1: year at that point, but this time Bill had found
Speaker 1: out something true, something damning in their circles. Curtis Maynard's
Speaker 1: wife was Latina. That meant he was guilty of one
Speaker 1: of the gravest sins in the white nationalist community. He
Speaker 1: was a race mixer. He had mixed race children. A
Speaker 1: few days later, Maynard posted on his own blog that
Speaker 1: he was going to log off for a few months,
Speaker 1: ending the brief message with another shot at Bill White,
Speaker 1: writing quote.
Speaker 2: As a parting message to my friends and readers, I'd
Speaker 2: just like to say thanks for supporting this blog as
Speaker 2: you have, and that Bill White of the ANSWP is
Speaker 2: a Jew and an agent of the ADL and SPLC.
Speaker 2: Don't trust him, and for God's sake, tell everyone you
Speaker 2: know that he is not a national socialist.
Speaker 1: And then he logged off. I suspect even if he
Speaker 1: wasn't posting, though he still saw the news when Bill
Speaker 1: White was arrested by the FEDS a few days later.
Speaker 1: He was charged with making threats against the foreman of
Speaker 1: the jury that convicted white supremacist leader Mat Pale. But
Speaker 1: it didn't matter anymore. Even with Bill White offline and
Speaker 1: behind bars, everyone in the movement already knew the truth
Speaker 1: about Curtis Maynard, and they reviled him.
Speaker 3: For it.
Speaker 1: In December, his wife, Melissa, filed for divorce. I don't
Speaker 1: think it was about this specifically, not really. I'm sure
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on at home. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just this online drama that drove them apart. I don't
Speaker 1: think he was a great husband and father, to be honest.
Speaker 1: He was home getting mad online while his wife supported
Speaker 1: their family as an engineer, And given his history of
Speaker 1: drug and alcohol abuse, it's hard not to imagine that
Speaker 1: his sobriety is in question at this point. And if
Speaker 1: he blamed Melissa, or just the color of her skin
Speaker 1: for his loss of status in the movement, he may
Speaker 1: have been taking out his anger on her. The divorce
Speaker 1: moved quickly, and she was granted full custody of their
Speaker 1: two daughters after he admitted in court that he'd once
Speaker 1: left the baby home alone. In two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: he turned his anger toward his own divorce attorney, accusing
Speaker 1: him of being a Mexican supremacist and working against his
Speaker 1: own client in the case out of loyalty to his
Speaker 1: own race, and he started more blogs. He started a
Speaker 1: new site for his Holocaust denial blogging, but it failed
Speaker 1: to attract the same level of interest as his writing
Speaker 1: had in the past. In the past, he could count
Speaker 1: on visitors to his site seeing his content cross posted
Speaker 1: on bigger platforms like his friend David Duke's website on
Speaker 1: Vanguard News. But now there was no more free promo
Speaker 1: from big name white nationalists, only long threads on the
Speaker 1: forums making fun of him. A new account popped up
Speaker 1: on the forum, posting in his defense. Other users quickly
Speaker 1: determined that it was Maynard himself and bullied him off
Speaker 1: the website again. He never admitted that was his account,
Speaker 1: but in this limited instance, I have to say I
Speaker 1: agree with the Nazi forum moderators on this one. The
Speaker 1: writing style was very similar to Maynard's and he made
Speaker 1: more blogs. He made several single issue blogs focused on
Speaker 1: things like attacking his ex wife and attacking his divorce attorney.
Speaker 1: One of those blogs is entirely gone from the Internet.
Speaker 1: I can't even find a ghost of a page, and
Speaker 1: that's probably for the best, because all of the references
Speaker 1: to that blog indicate that it was dedicated to revenge
Speaker 1: porn nude photographs of his ex wife that he'd taken
Speaker 1: during their marriage and posted online after the divorce to
Speaker 1: humiliate her. And now that he was banned from Stormfront
Speaker 1: and Vanguard News, he redirected his forum posting energy into
Speaker 1: a site called the Ron Paul Liberty Forest RP fan
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight was definitely Curtis Maynard. He registered
Speaker 1: on the site just a few days after the blow
Speaker 1: up with Bill White in December of two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: and he posted three thousand times, including one thread complaining
Speaker 1: about how Google was returning too few hits if he
Speaker 1: searched for Curtis Maynard. His last thread on the Ron
Speaker 1: Paul forum started on January twenty sixth, twenty ten, three
Speaker 1: months before Curtis made or died. He titled it my
Speaker 1: conspiracy riddled, hate filled, weird stupid Goodbye, And all of
Speaker 1: the modifiers in that title are in scare quotes for
Speaker 1: some reason, and he did spell weird wrong. The post
Speaker 1: is confusing, it's very long. It seems like he'd become
Speaker 1: disillusioned with the Ron Paul Revolution and he was growing
Speaker 1: concerned that Paul's libertarian policy on drug legalization would lead
Speaker 1: to widespread degeneracy in the destruction of society. He rambles
Speaker 1: for a bit in the middle about the evils of
Speaker 1: pornography and usury. There are inexplicable variations in font sizes
Speaker 1: and sentences that sort of trail off without concluding, and
Speaker 1: then in very small font at the bottom of the post,
Speaker 1: he wrote, I think RP Fan two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: must decease from the forums. He later edited the post
Speaker 1: to add a YouTube link called The Eternal Jew. The
Speaker 1: link is dead, so it could have been something else,
Speaker 1: but I assume it was the nineteen forty Nazi propaganda film.
Speaker 1: Much of his Internet footprint from this time period is gone.
Speaker 1: Blogs wiped out for terms of service violations before anyone
Speaker 1: archived them, links that go nowhere, comments referring to forum
Speaker 1: posts on websites that haven't existed in over a decade.
Speaker 1: But people on both sides of the issue, both white
Speaker 1: nationalists and anti racist activists, saw Curtis Maynard's downward spiral.
Speaker 1: He was unwell in May of two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: a year before he died, A white nationalist podcast host
Speaker 1: made a passing reference to Maynard's history of accusing his
Speaker 1: enemies of being secretly Jewish. The co host of the
Speaker 1: show sort of processed the name for a moment and
Speaker 1: then recalled that oh, Yeah, that's the guy that's been
Speaker 1: really racist online, and then it came out that he
Speaker 1: had a Latino wife and mixed race children. Adding that quote,
Speaker 1: he seems a bit unstable to me. Plus he calls
Speaker 1: all his old friends at VNN Jews. Now, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be surprised if he and his ex wife end up
Speaker 1: in a murder suicide type deal. Around that same time period,
Speaker 1: about a year before the murder suicide, a poster on
Speaker 1: an anti racist message board made the same terrible prediction, writing,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if Maynard loses it and decides
Speaker 1: to go on a spree and harms a bunch of
Speaker 1: innocent people. Don't know how much you've followed about the guy,
Speaker 1: but he's a nurse, which means there are people of
Speaker 1: all races in a vulnerable position under this mentally ill
Speaker 1: person's care for medications, food, ivs. That's the part that
Speaker 1: bothers me the most, And it's that piecet why I've
Speaker 1: sort of kept an eye on the guy. What if
Speaker 1: this guy decides the Jews or the reason why his
Speaker 1: wife won her freedom and successfully was able to save
Speaker 1: herself and her kids. That post ends with a question
Speaker 1: are his wife and children at risk? The sight has
Speaker 1: long since crumbled to dust. The post is preserved only
Speaker 1: as a quote with a dead link on a defunct blog.
Speaker 1: So I don't know who it was that saw this coming,
Speaker 1: but I know it must weigh heavily on their heart.
Speaker 1: I don't think there was anything they could have done, though,
Speaker 1: who could they call the police? The police wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been her, he hadn't broken the law. By the time
Speaker 1: Curtis Maynard did anything the police would have seen as
Speaker 1: reason to intervene, it was already over. And I won't
Speaker 1: tell that part of the story again, and don't want to.
Speaker 1: It's in the last episode, digging through hundreds of pages
Speaker 1: of old forum posts and finding a twenty year old
Speaker 1: c Span video of Richard Spencer trying to make Ron
Speaker 1: Paul laugh. Those things are fun for me. I live
Speaker 1: for that shit. The bloody end, though, with a young
Speaker 1: mother lying dead in her own front yard, that isn't
Speaker 1: where I want to dwell. Curtis Maynard murdered Melissa Masa
Speaker 1: on April twenty first, twenty ten. He died by suicide
Speaker 1: not long after his stepdaughter survived being shot in the
Speaker 1: face and his two younger daughters were able to escape
Speaker 1: the house without being physically harmed. At the time of
Speaker 1: the murder, Curtis Maynard had very recently remarried. Just two
Speaker 1: months before he died, he married his third wife, and
Speaker 1: when he died, she was pregnant with their child. When
Speaker 1: the news hit the Nazi forums, reactions buried some die
Speaker 1: hard conspiracy theorists jump right into their comfort zone, writing
Speaker 1: things like I doubt the validity of the story's facts
Speaker 1: and think perhaps he was suicided, and Alex Jones's competitors
Speaker 1: always seemed to die in mysterious events involving guns. Sounds
Speaker 1: like a setup to me. But those commenters were in
Speaker 1: the minority. For people who knew Curtis Maynard online, for
Speaker 1: those who'd followed his writing, there was some sorrow, but
Speaker 1: very little shock. One longtime reader wrote, I really think
Speaker 1: that he struggled to maintain perspective and demonstrated more than
Speaker 1: a little barely controlled anger. It's unsurprising to me that
Speaker 1: he met a violent end. Another said, I regret not
Speaker 1: having attempted to contact him via email. The signs of
Speaker 1: meltdown were there all along, but who expects something like this?
Speaker 1: The posters on VNN, the site he was bullied off
Speaker 1: of at least twice, had nobody for him. One of
Speaker 1: the site's moderators wrote, God forgive me for repeating it.
Speaker 1: Guess I won't have to ban him anymore for calling
Speaker 1: everyone a jew. He's banned from life, one less race
Speaker 1: mixer and batshit insane white national as to made us
Speaker 1: all look bad. At least he took his Mexican ex
Speaker 1: wife with him. Many of the posts celebrated his death,
Speaker 1: as well as his ex wife's. Posters who feuded with
Speaker 1: him in the past, gloated about getting the last laugh,
Speaker 1: and some hoped that more mixed race relationships would end
Speaker 1: like this one. As is often the case. When Nazi's
Speaker 1: Monday Morning quarterback a murder, many posters had notes writing
Speaker 1: things like what a stupid fucker. He could have redeemed
Speaker 1: himself by giving his life taking out an influential member
Speaker 1: of the anti white elite. That would have brought him
Speaker 1: fame and respect instead of laughter and ridicule. Over on Stormfront,
Speaker 1: where he hadn't posted since two thousand and seven, the
Speaker 1: posts seemed a little more I don't want to say thoughtful.
Speaker 1: That's not the right word. I guess my perspective is
Speaker 1: pretty warped. At this point. No one is posting thoughtfully
Speaker 1: on storm. I think I was just surprised that anyone
Speaker 1: there still had the capacity to consider something like this tragic,
Speaker 1: because even users who had no problem with the man
Speaker 1: murdering his ex wife thought it was just a little
Speaker 1: over the line to shoot the stepdaughter. One user posted
Speaker 1: he went off the deep end when he started writing
Speaker 1: about the fake moon landings. I'm afraid he lost all
Speaker 1: ability to distinguish between lies and truth. I sent him
Speaker 1: an email when he started on about the moon landings
Speaker 1: and tried to rein him back in, but he wanted
Speaker 1: no part of it. His response to me was quite extreme,
Speaker 1: and since I didn't know him personally, there wasn't much
Speaker 1: else I could do. The forums lit up for a
Speaker 1: few days, but then they moved on. Curtis Maynard wasn't
Speaker 1: really missed in the places. He spent years posting furiously
Speaker 1: trying to make a name for himself. Every now and again,
Speaker 1: someone remembers him. In twenty eighteen, eight Chan users were
Speaker 1: discussing the strange phenomenon of white supremacists with non white
Speaker 1: wives and someone who knew the deep lore posted there
Speaker 1: was a famous case of a guy on vn N
Speaker 1: called Melker who posed as a tough Nazi and was
Speaker 1: meanwhile a house husband with a hispatic wife taking care
Speaker 1: of their daughter. Usually you learn of these things after
Speaker 1: the murder suicide. A fellow Holocaust and ire he'd been
Speaker 1: toured in the early two thousands mentioned him fondly on
Speaker 1: the eleventh anniversary of his death, offering a sentimental reflection
Speaker 1: about his dead friend. The post was buried deep in
Speaker 1: the comment section of a conspiracy theory video posted by
Speaker 1: an anti Semite in Idaho who has been asked by
Speaker 1: the Russian Orthodox Church to stop pretending to be a monk.
Speaker 1: It's a fitting place, i guess, for the last remaining
Speaker 1: fond memory of a man whose rise and fall barely
Speaker 1: ever existed outside the comments section on racist blogs. Weird
Speaker 1: Little Guys is a prorection of Kolzo Media and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: It's research, written and recorded by me Holly Conger. Our
Speaker 1: executive producers are Sophielectterman and Robert Evans. The show has
Speaker 1: edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme music
Speaker 1: is composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at
Speaker 1: Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com. I will
Speaker 1: definitely read it, but I probably won't answer. It's nothing personal.
Speaker 1: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other
Speaker 1: listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. If you're listening
Speaker 1: to this the week it came out, you still have
Speaker 1: time to submit a question over there for an upcoming
Speaker 1: Q and a episode, but as always, just don't post
Speaker 1: anything that's going to make you one of my Weird
Speaker 1: Little Guys