1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. In December of two thousand and seven, 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: a neo Nazi named Bill White was very angry and 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: very online. That wasn't out of character for him. His 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: habit of lashing out that anyone he disagreed with would 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: eventually land him in federal prison. He threatened and timidated, docked, 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: and harassed people for years, members of the jury that 7 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: convicted white supremacist leader Matt Hale, a prosecutor handling a 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: case against members of a white supremacist militia, and Florida 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: tenants who sued him for housing discrimination, and his own 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: ex wife. He was a menace on the Nazi message boards, 11 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: and just before Christmas in two thousand and seven, he 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: got into a fight with a former friend that would 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: send that man into a deadly downward spiral. I'm Molly Conger, 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: and this is the lost episode of Weird Little Guys. 15 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: For all the side stories, digressions, tangents, and the months 16 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: this episode has been lost, this has always been a 17 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: story about Curtis Maynard, the Holocaust denial blogger who murdered 18 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: his ex wife and then died by suicide in twenty ten. 19 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: But if I'm being entirely honest with you, it's really 20 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: only barely about Curtis Maynard. His story, told on its 21 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: own is pretty short, and you already know it. It 22 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: was in part one. He was a Holocaust denier who 23 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: hoped to make a career as a white supremacist writer. 24 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: He had a short rise to minor fame in his 25 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: horrible little corner of the Internet, and then a sudden 26 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: fall from grace. He spiraled after his second divorce, and 27 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: he shot himself in the head while fleeing from the 28 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: police after murdering the mother of his children. I'm not 29 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: interested in a straightforward true crime narrative about an act 30 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: of domestic violence. In the story about Curtis Baynard, that 31 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: I think is more interesting. He's only a bit player. 32 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: The stories playing out all around him in the last 33 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: few years of his life are full of weird little guys, 34 00:02:51,880 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: guys like Bill White. William Alexander White is not a 35 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: man I'm quite ready to explain. Even still, his role 36 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: in this story makes him unavoidable, and I will write 37 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: about him eventually, because he's a man I've spent years 38 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 1: thinking about and hundreds of hours reading, mostly by way 39 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: of his voluminous vexatious court filings from federal prison. He'll 40 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: have his day on the show, I promise, But until 41 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: then he is going to keep popping up in a 42 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: lot of other people's stories. He's almost always there. You 43 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: might even remember him from a brief aside in an 44 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: episode that aired last November, the episode about Ethan Melzer, 45 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: the US Army soldier who leaked classified troop movements to 46 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: what he thought was Al Qaeda, but it turned out 47 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,279 Speaker 1: to be a mentally ill Canadian teenager. In that episode, 48 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: I was talking about the ideological shift within the neo 49 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: Nazi group Adam Woffin, as some of its members gravitated 50 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: towards the magical satanism of the Order of Nine Angles. 51 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until several members of Adam Woffin ended 52 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: up in court that it was revealed that Joshua Caleb 53 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Sutter had been working for the FBI for a decade 54 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: and as a dedicated reader of Bill White's lawsuits against 55 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: the government. I know that Bill had been saying that 56 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: for years. I mean, Bill has a lot of theories 57 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: about who might be an informant, but you can't deny 58 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: he was right about Sutter. Bill White is a Nazi. 59 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: That much is probably obvious by now, but he's also 60 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of a drama queen. Before he became a jail 61 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: house lawyer, he was an incessant blogger, and in all 62 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: his years in the movement, he was never not a problem. 63 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: He was stirring up shit in a way that can 64 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: only be described as pathological, and that might be because 65 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: it was normally. I think it would be unfair to 66 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: speculate about someone's mental health based on what they're writing 67 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: in their blog. But in Bill's case, I have some 68 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: proof because for some reason, he once filed a complete 69 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: copy of his own psyche vow as an exhibit in 70 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: a court case. So I can tell you that several 71 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: prison psychiatrists and court appointed forensic psychologists have diagnosed Bill 72 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: White with narcissistic personality disorder. That's a term that's seen 73 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: a lot of abuse and popular online discourse, reducing it 74 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: to a meaningless epithet her that someone who's behaving badly, 75 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: But it is a real clinical diagnosis, albeit a controversial one, 76 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: and it's a term with an actual meaning. Drawing directly 77 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: from one of his evaluations, the doctor wrote the essential 78 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: features of narcissistic personality disorder are a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, 79 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins in 80 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts. 81 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: Histrionic traits include a propensity for needing to be the 82 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: center of attention, while antisocial traits refer to engaging in 83 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: activities that run counter to mainstream social norms. Now, I 84 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: want to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone with 85 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: a personality disorder is a bad person. Having a personality 86 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: disorder doesn't make you a Nazi, it doesn't make you 87 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: a criminal. It just so happens that Bill White has 88 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: a personality disorder and he is a Nazi and a criminal. 89 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: They don't always go together. This is a difficult condition 90 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: to live with. There's no cure, and the nature of 91 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: the condition often means that those living with it don't 92 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: feel like they need treatment. But there are people who 93 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: manage to live relatively normal lives with the support of 94 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: things like dialectical behavior therapy. So my intention is not 95 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: to slander everyone living with a personality disorder, but I 96 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: do think the diagnosis sheds some light on Bill White's behavior. 97 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: He needs to be right. He needs to be the 98 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: center of attention. He'll do almost anything to get that attention, 99 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: positive or negative, it barely matters, and any perceived slight 100 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: against him all the justification He needs to go absolutely 101 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: nuclear in response. The white power movement is full of 102 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: men who attack their enemies, and there are plenty of 103 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: them in the movement going after each other. There are 104 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: power struggles, ideological disagreements, and just plain friction between guys 105 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: with poor social skills. None of that is that unusual. 106 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: But even in that milieu, Bill White stands out because 107 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: Bill White had beef with everybody, and it was Bill 108 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: White and his insatiable need for attention that drew Curtis 109 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: Maynard into an online argument in December of two thousand 110 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: and seven. It was Bill White's irresistible urge to lash 111 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: out at anyone who crossed him that ended up ruining 112 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: Curtis Maynard's reputation among the racists who read his Holocaust 113 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: denile blog. On December nineteenth, two thousand and seven, Bill 114 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: White made a pretty big claim. He logged onto Vanguard 115 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: News Network, a neo Nazi forum, and started a thread 116 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: with the title ron Paul lies about lack of involvement 117 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: with white nationalists, the Post read comrades. I have kept 118 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while because 119 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: I didn't see any need to say anything that would 120 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his 121 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about 122 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: Ron Paul's extensive involvement in white nationalism. Both Congressman Paul 123 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront, 124 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: set American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others 125 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: at the Tara Tai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia on Wednesdays. 126 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: This is part of a dinner that was originally organized 127 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, and Joe so Braun and 128 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: has since been mostly taken over by the Council of 129 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: Conservative Citizens. I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and 130 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: his aides there, and been invited to his offices in 131 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: Washington to discuss policy. For his spokesman to call white 132 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: racialism small ideology and claim white activists are wasting their 133 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: money trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a 134 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept 135 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet 136 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: because of his political position. I don't know that it 137 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: is necessarily good for Paul to expose this. However, he 138 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism, and 139 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: for him to deny that in the belief he will 140 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: be more respectable by denying it is outrageous. And I 141 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism because 142 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: they think it is not fashionable. Bill White, Commander American 143 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: National Socialist Workers Party, Now, is that true? The short 144 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: answer is legally no. I won't say that this Nazi 145 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: is telling the truth. Is it possible? Kind of yeah? 146 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: Probably not, not exactly, not down to the details, but 147 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: maybe a little yeah. But we'll get to that almost instantly, 148 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: I mean, with a curious quickness. Conservative blogger Charles Foster 149 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: Johnson picked up the story and he got a post 150 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: up on his blog Little Green Footballs within hours of 151 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: Bill posting this on the Nazi Forum and Johnson dug up. 152 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: But looked like pretty damning receipts. Ron Paul's campaign finance 153 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: reports filed with the Federal Election Commission do show that 154 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: someone used campaign funds at a restaurant called Tara Tie 155 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: in Arlington eleven times in two thousand and seven, spending 156 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: about forty dollars once a month or so. Now, there's 157 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: no proving anything here. This was too many years ago, 158 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: and no one who could still tell the truth about 159 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: this has any incentive to do so. But I can 160 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: tell you what I think happened here. Bill White made 161 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: up a pretty convincing story that has some elements of truth, 162 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: but he messed up some of the details. The white 163 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: nationalists dinner meetings he's talking about were real, but he 164 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: got the name of the restaurant wrong. Until his death 165 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, white supremacist writer Sam Francis 166 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: did host monthly yet togethers at a Thai restaurant in 167 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: northern Virginia, but that restaurant was called Sala Tie, not 168 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: Tara Tai. It just so happens that Tara Tai was 169 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: about a quarter a mile away from Ron Paul's campaign 170 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: headquarters in two thousand and seven, So far from being 171 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: a smoking gun that proves Ron Paul was going to 172 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: a monthly Nazi dinner party, It just looks like that 173 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: was the preferred takeout destination for someone on the campaign staff. 174 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: But in two thousand and seven, those white nationalist dinners 175 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: at Sala Tie were still going on, organized by a 176 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: longtime Council of Conservative Citizens member named Peter Gemma. Gemma 177 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: responded to White's allegation, writing. 178 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: I read those dinners. Rob Paul was never there, nor 179 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: did we run some sort of neo Nazi meeting. We 180 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 2: had academics and activists of national repute. The audience were 181 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: people who work at government, businessmed and grassroots types too. 182 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: Bill White ever came to the meetings. He didn't use 183 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 2: his real name. He doesn't even get the name of 184 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: the restaurant correctly. 185 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's telling the whole truth here. Jemma 186 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: claims he never saw Ron Paul or Bill White, and 187 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: that might be true. But he also claims the dinners 188 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: weren't Nazi meetups, and that's not true. He was at 189 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: the time the media relations director for a nonprofit called 190 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: the National Policy Institute. Yes, that National Policy Institute, the 191 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: same one that would later appoint Richard Spencer as chairman, 192 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: and Peter Jemma had more than a few ties to 193 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: the movement. He was quite publicly associated with this kind 194 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: of stuff, at least as far back as two thousand 195 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: and four, when he gave a speech at the annual 196 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: Holocaust Denial conference held by the Institute for Historic Review. 197 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: In two thousand and five, the Washington Post ran a 198 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: story about him hosting a book signing for David Irving, 199 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: but for some reason, it took until twenty eighteen for 200 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: the Republican Party Committee in Sarasota County, Florida to vote 201 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: to remove him from their executive committee. He passed away 202 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: in January of twenty twenty five, and his obituary mentions 203 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: his work as a staffer for Ronald Reagan and says 204 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: he wrote articles for many publications, but the obituary does 205 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: not mention that many of those publications were explicitly white 206 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: supremacist outlets like Occidental Quarterly and v Dair. But on 207 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: the subject of these dinners, we have a lot of 208 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: claims from a lot of men who aren't telling the truth. 209 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: Bill White is claiming he saw ron Paul attend. Were 210 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: definitely real. I mean, the dinners were real. It's just 211 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: a question of who was there. We know they were 212 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: attended by the intellectual giants of the white supremacist world, 213 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: such that those exist as well as white supremacists with 214 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: connections to more mainstream conservative politics. Peter Jemma himself was 215 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: a senior staff member of Pat Buchanan's two thousand election campaign, 216 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: and he probably met Bill White back then. White claims 217 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: that he led the petition drive for Buchanan's candidacy in Maryland. Sure, 218 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: Bill White's a liar, But a photo taken by a 219 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: Washington Post photographer in March of two thousand shows Bill 220 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: White standing right behind Pat Buchanan at a campaign event 221 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: in Bethesda. But the question at hand is still, did 222 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: Ron Paul ever attend those dinners? I don't know. 223 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: When. 224 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: Virginia Heffernan, writing for the New York Times, picked up 225 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: the story from the blogisphere. The Ron Paul campaign quickly 226 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: issued a denial, and The New York Times pulled the 227 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: story and issued a correction. The campaign flatly denied that 228 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: Ron Paul had ever attended such a dinner or met 229 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: Bill White, although they did admit that Norm Singleton, ron 230 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Paul's legislative director, had met Bill White quote at a 231 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton 232 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: expressed his indignation that the views espoused by White to 233 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: the organizer of the dinner. So it seems like the 234 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: nugget of truth in Bill's post as that he did 235 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: meet a man who worked for Ron Paul at one 236 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: of those Nazi dinners, but it was a few years ago, 237 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: so he didn't quite get the name of the restaurant right, 238 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: And the timing tells us something about Bill White's decision 239 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: to make this story up too. December nineteenth, two thousand 240 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: and seven, was the exact same day that the Ron 241 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: Paul campaign issued a statement that they would not be 242 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: returning a five hundred dollars campaign donation made by Don Black, 243 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: the webmaster of the Naziside Stormfront. Don Black was a 244 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: vocal supporter of the Paul campaign, as were many Stormfront posters, 245 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: and Don Black boasted on Stormfront that dozens of his 246 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: members were active campaign volunteers and donors. A photo had 247 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: recently surfaced of Ron Paul and Don Black at a 248 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: campaign event in Fort Lauderdale in September. Actually, if you 249 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: look at Don Black's Wikipedia page right now, the photo 250 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: of his face on that page is actually cropped from 251 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: this picture. So if you go to Don Black's Wikipedia page, 252 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: there's a picture and it's just Don Black's face. But 253 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: know that if you zoom out, Ron Paul is right there. 254 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: By December, there were calls for Ron Paul to return 255 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: these Nazi campaign donations, and it's obvious that this is 256 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: the story Bill White is responding to. He quotes directly 257 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: from the campaign press release that had been issued just 258 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: a few hours earlier, with a Paul campaign aid saying quote, 259 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: if someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to 260 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: Ron thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's 261 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: wasted his money. End quote. But Ron Paul himself refused 262 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: to disavow the support of what nationalists, saying quote, if 263 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 1: they want to endorse me, they're endorsing what I do 264 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: or say. It has nothing to do with endorsing what 265 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: they say. I think the best explanation is that Ron 266 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: Paul hurt Bill White's feelings. That small Ideology's comment clearly 267 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: got under his skin. He echoed it in his post. 268 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: He felt disrespected. If Nazee money is good enough for 269 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: Ron Paul, why does Ron Paul think he's too good 270 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: for Nazis? So he lashed out. Ron Paul hurt him, 271 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: and he wanted to hurt Ron Paul. Right back, and 272 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: he was media savvy enough to understand that Paul was 273 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: particularly vulnerable at that moment when it came to stories 274 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: about his associations with white supremacists. So my best guess 275 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: here is that the claim he's making is not technically 276 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: entire true. I don't think it's likely that Bill White 277 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: ever sat at a dinner table with Ron Paul at 278 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: a meetup organized by the Council of Conservative Citizens at 279 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: a Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia. I don't think every 280 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: single one of those details was ever true. At the 281 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: same time, I do think it's almost certainly true that 282 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: Bill White met Ron Paul's legislative director Norm Singleton at 283 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: one of those Nazi dinners back in two thousand and two. 284 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: That seems to align with the campaign's owned admissions. There 285 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: are things in the story that are definitely true. Paul 286 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: campaign's staff did have dinner with white supremacists. Ron Paul 287 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: did take money from Nazis. Nazis did volunteer for the campaign. 288 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: Ron Paul did speak at events organized by white supremacists. 289 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: And then there are elements that could be true. Things 290 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: you can't prove or disprove, but sound possible. Did Ron 291 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: Paul campaign staff attend other dinners? Did Paul himself ever 292 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: meet privately with any of the men from those dinners? 293 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: We don't know. Bill White invented a story that has 294 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: a loose lineage that trace us back to some kind 295 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: of truth. 296 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: Right. 297 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: He made up a story based in some snippets of truth, 298 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: and he crafted this story to capitalize on the headline 299 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 1: news of the day to soothe his own ego. He 300 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: didn't care what happened to Ron Paul. He didn't care 301 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: about anything other than creating a shit storm that he 302 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: could be in the middle of. But honestly, he didn't 303 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: actually need to make things up if he wanted to 304 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: remind everyone that Ron Paul was palling around with white Soprists. 305 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: Just two months before Bill White made that post, back 306 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: in October of two thousand and seven, Ron Paul had 307 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: in fact been the guest of honor at a different 308 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: restaurant at an event hosted by Nazis. And there's no 309 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: doubt this time about whether or not Ron Paul accepted 310 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: the invitation, because, in addition to the two hundred sum 311 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: people packed into the Boulevard Wood Grill in Arlington, Virginia. 312 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: There were cameras. A c SPAN camera crew captured the entire. 313 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: Event before we began. I'd like to thank there are 314 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 4: other members of the executive board, Dan McCarthy and Kevin 315 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 4: Deanna and Marcus Epstein who actually founded the club just 316 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 4: around a year and a half ago, and their Tyler's 317 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 4: efforts are invaluable. Thank you. 318 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: Do you recognize that voice? I think some of you might. 319 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: Maybe you're normal and that fifteen second clip didn't make 320 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: you almost drop your phone in surprise as you demanded 321 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: to know. Is that Richard Spencer? Because it is. That's 322 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: Richard Bertrand. Spencer, best known for such highlights as getting 323 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: punched in the face on camera at Trump's first inauguration 324 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: or having a screeching meltdown at an Airbnb because he 325 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: didn't get to give his speech at the Unite the 326 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, ten years before 327 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: he helped plan the Nazi rally that killed Heather Higher, 328 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: he had just dropped out of a PhD program at 329 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: Duke University to pursue his career in racism full time. 330 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: He was living in Arlington and working as the assistant 331 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: editor at the American Conservative magazine. The event Ron Paul 332 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: was speaking at that night was put on by a 333 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: group called the Robert A. Taft Club, founded a year 334 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: earlier by Richard Spencer, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein. Epstein 335 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: described the club as a forum for lively debate about 336 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: the important issues that divide the right. And while Richard 337 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: Spencer's name is probably the only one of those three 338 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: that sounds familiar to you, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein 339 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: were and are deeply entrenched in white supremacist circles. Kevin 340 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: Dianna and Marcus Epstein met in college at William and Mary, 341 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 1: where they both wrote for and edited these school's right 342 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: leaning student newspaper, The Remnant. Both men were named as 343 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: defendants when the paper was sued for defamation in two 344 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: thousand and six. The paper had been putting up flyers 345 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: all over campus naming a female student who had recently 346 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: accused another student of rape. In their articles defending this practice, 347 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: which they justified by accusing women of lying about being raped, 348 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: they brought up what they felt was a similar case, 349 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: charges against a fraternity brother that had been dropped in 350 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. The editors of the Remnant didn't 351 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: seem at all troubled by complicated truths like the fact 352 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: that the victim had been a sixteen year old high 353 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: school girl, or that the fraternity brother accused of raping, sodomizing, 354 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: and penetrating her with an object admitted to getting the 355 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: miner drunk to have sex with her. He was ultimately 356 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: convicted only of two counts of contributing to the delinquency 357 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: of a minor. The paper called that teenage girl a 358 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: wannabe victim, a con artist, a liar, and a fraud. 359 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: The lawsuit was settled out of court just a few 360 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: weeks before this event with Ron Paul. After graduation, Kevin 361 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: Deanna and Marcus Epstein founded a group called Youth for 362 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: Western Civilization and started establishing chapters of this white supremacist 363 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: student group on college campuses future where Little Guy's subject, 364 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: Matthew Heinbach would later serve as president of the chapter 365 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: of Youth for Western Civilization at Tawson University in Maryland, 366 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: and Kevin Deanna, under the pseudonym Gregory Hood still writes 367 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: for American Renaissance, the white nationalist outlet that holds annual 368 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: race science conferences. Just a few months before this event 369 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: with Ron Paul, Marcus Epstein was stumbling home drunk one 370 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: night when he saw a black woman minding her own business. 371 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: Unable to control himself, apparently, he screamed the N word 372 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: at her and then charged at her and, according to 373 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: multiple news reports about this incident, tried to karate chop her. 374 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: He would eventually plead guilty to assaults, but his boss, 375 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: Congressman Tom Tancredo, didn't think the incident was serious enough 376 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: to fire him, and Pat Buchanan's sister, Babe Buchanan, told 377 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: reporters that the incident was out of character for Marcus 378 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: and chalked it up to some problems in his personal life. 379 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: So in the fall of two thousand and seven, Ron 380 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: Paul was photographed with his arm around Stormfront webmaster Don Black, 381 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: and he got a standing ovation after an introduction from 382 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: Richard Spencer and an event organized by a guy who'd 383 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: recently assaulted a woman he didn't know just because she 384 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: was black. Bill White didn't need to make things up 385 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: if he wanted to draw attention to Ron Paul's cozy 386 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: relationship with men who were outlaw interracial marriage or whatever. 387 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: But Bill White loves to start drama, so he logged 388 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: onto that Nazi message board and he started posting. The 389 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: response was intense. There were four hundred and forty one 390 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: replies to his original thread. Most of the posters on 391 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: Vanguard News seemed to have been ardent Ron Paul supporters, 392 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: so they were frustrated with Bill for hurting Ron Paul's campaign. 393 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: But beyond that, opinions varied. Some users felt very confident that, 394 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: of course Ron Paul was really one of them, but 395 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: they understood that it would be political suicide for him 396 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: to admit it. Others felt that Ron Paul wasn't quite 397 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: aligned with them in that way, but they agreed with 398 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: him about a lot of other issues, and his campaign 399 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: events were a great recruitment pool for the movement. One 400 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: user posted, I know a lot of white supremacists involved 401 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: in the Ron Paul campaign. I wish he wouldn't shun 402 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: away his true supporters. Another said Bill's revelation wasn't even news. 403 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: Everybody in DC knows about Ron Paul's white nationalist connections. 404 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: Former Klansmen and National Alliance organizer Ron Dogget weighed in, 405 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: saying he'd been to those dinners plenty of times, and 406 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: he never saw Ron Paul. Mostly people were pissed off 407 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: at Bill. One poster wrote, You're just a goddamn loose 408 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: cannon who wants to be in the limelight and you 409 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: don't care what you have to do to get there. 410 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: Why do you pack up your shit and leave and 411 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: try to incriminate and poison the well against someone other 412 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: than Ron Paul? Another politely chimed in, writing, while I 413 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: find this information interesting and intriguing, I have to join 414 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 1: the chorus here and asking how the fuck do this 415 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: help Ron Paul? In white nationalism? Todd van Bieber, a 416 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: man whose faces badly scarred from the time he nearly 417 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: blew himself up trying to build bombs. He planned to 418 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: set off at Disney World to distract the police while 419 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: Nazi's Rob Banks to fund a race war was exasperated. 420 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: He posted asking Bill if this grand standing was more 421 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: important than ending the Federal Reserve. James Leshkevich, posting as 422 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Yankee Jim, seemed to be having a good time watching 423 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: the drama unfold. Every dozen posts or so, there's Yankee 424 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: Jim making some wise crack, posting laughing emojis, and comments 425 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: like you sure do know how to get attention. Bill 426 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: The poster known as Yankee Chim, died two months later. 427 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: He hanged himself in his garage after beating his wife 428 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: to death. Curtis Maynard, an active forum poster and rabbid 429 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: Ron Paul supporters, the thread later that night, and he 430 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: made the one hundred and forty second post in the thread. 431 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: Sounds like bullshit to me. I will say that RP 432 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: isn't afraid of talking with those holding an alternative view, 433 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 2: but it seems a little far fetched that he'd be 434 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: knowingly meeting with and shaking the hands of Bill White 435 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: and any stormfronters. I'm calling total bullshit for now. 436 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: And then Curtis Maynard jumped into action to defend Ron 437 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: Paul's honor. He fired off a blog post accusing Bill 438 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: White of secretly working for Massade. That's right. The most 439 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: logical explanation he could come up with was that Bill 440 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: White wasn't a real Nazi at all, but he was 441 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: a Jewish agent provocateur trying to prevent Nazis from getting 442 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: Ron Paul elected president. In Curtis Maynard's opinion, that picture 443 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: of Ron Paul with Don black Well that's obviously fake. 444 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: Everybody knows Don Black is fat and that man looks thin. 445 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: Maynard frantically scoured the internet for proof that Bill White 446 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: was wrong, and he posted links to news coverage he 447 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: felt refuted those claims. After a couple of posts like that, 448 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: another user warned him, writing, don't egg him on. If 449 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: you're not careful, he'll out every one he knows of. 450 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: This is how William works. Curtis's post was the last 451 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: word in that thread. On Christmas Eve, he wrote, if 452 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: the elections were held today and the Jews weren't able 453 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: to manipulate the tally, Ron Paul would receive the majority 454 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: of the vote of both parties. Anyone telling you any 455 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: differently is either stupid, delusional, or complicit. In another thread, 456 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: someone linked to Curtis's blog post accusing Bill White of 457 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: being a Jewish agent. Now that thread, that one got 458 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: out of hand, devolving into an argument between April Gade 459 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: and Alicia Strome. Those aren't really names you need to 460 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: know for this story, but if you are an avid listener, 461 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: you have heard them before. Alicia you might remember as 462 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: the second wife of Nazi pedophile Kevin Alfred Strone from 463 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: the very first episode of the show. April Gade is 464 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: the mother of the twin girls who made up the 465 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: short lived white power music duo Brush and Blue, and 466 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: in the thread, Alicia shamed April for parading her daughters 467 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: around in Hitler T shirts to make money, and April 468 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: reminded Alicia that she said nothing about her ex husband 469 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,479 Speaker 1: using pictures of the twins for sexual gratification. It really 470 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: went off the rails. But the strangest part is how 471 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: the conversation ended. Curtis chimed in. Replying to a picture 472 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: of April Gade's daughters in those Hitler T shirts. 473 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 3: He wrote, quote, is it wrong of me to take 474 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 3: my six month old daughter and use women's makeup to 475 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 3: paint a beautiful Hitler mustache on her upper lip? 476 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 2: She's so cute, looks just like baby Hitler. She has 477 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 2: those brown locks sweeping across her forehead and everything. 478 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: The site was on fire for days, multiple threads, hundreds 479 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: of posts. Scores of users were mad at Bill White. 480 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: They were yelling at him, making fun of him, calling 481 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: him names, digging up old allegations and coming up with 482 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: new ones. And maybe he tried to ruin some of 483 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: them too. I don't know, but I know he couldn't 484 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: forgive Curtis. In January two thousand and eight, Curtis Maynard 485 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: was needling Bill White. He was still outraged at the 486 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: damaged Bill had done to Ron Paul, and he wasn't 487 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: going to let it go. He created a fake website 488 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: for White's organization, the ANSWP, and declared himself the chairman 489 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: of it. He wrote open letters to Bill White on 490 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: his blog and on the forums, trying to goad him 491 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: into another fight. In March, he gleefully reported that there 492 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: had been a fire at one of Bill White's rental 493 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: properties in Virginia, and he accused White of hiring an 494 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: anti racist organization to set the fire in order to 495 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: bolster his reputation for being racist against his black tenants. 496 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: It's a very roundabout, complicated sort of theory. In the 497 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: early months of two thousand and eight, a supporter of 498 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: Bill's made posts on the forums calling for Curtis to 499 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: be banned from the site. So another user made a 500 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: pull one of them should be banned, but which one 501 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: Bill lost. People wanted Bill White banded from the forums 502 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: more than they wanted to ban Curtis Maynard and Bill 503 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: responded by complaining that well, Curtis actually broke the forum's 504 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: most important rule. Posters on Vanguard News Network are not 505 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: allowed to accuse other posters of being Jewish unless you 506 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: have proof. In May, Bill claimed that Curtis Maynard didn't 507 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: even exist and that the account was actually run by 508 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: a black gay man hired by the Southern Poverty Law 509 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: Center to make annoying posts that would make Nazis look bad. 510 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: When challenged to name any white activist who could vouch 511 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: for him, Curtis snapped back that he was friends with 512 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: David Duke. As two thousand and eight were on, his 513 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: posts grew increasingly paranoid and hostile. He wasn't just accusing 514 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: Bill White of being secretly Jewish, working for the government, 515 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: or both. He was starting to accuse other users on 516 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: the forums who was spiraling, And for as much as 517 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: everyone on the forum hated Bill White, they were starting 518 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: to turn on Curtis Maynard too. And then in September 519 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, Bill White made another accusation. They'd 520 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: been making things up about each other for nearly a 521 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: year at that point, but this time Bill had found 522 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: out something true, something damning in their circles. Curtis Maynard's 523 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: wife was Latina. That meant he was guilty of one 524 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: of the gravest sins in the white nationalist community. He 525 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: was a race mixer. He had mixed race children. A 526 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: few days later, Maynard posted on his own blog that 527 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: he was going to log off for a few months, 528 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: ending the brief message with another shot at Bill White, 529 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: writing quote. 530 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 2: As a parting message to my friends and readers, I'd 531 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 2: just like to say thanks for supporting this blog as 532 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: you have, and that Bill White of the ANSWP is 533 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 2: a Jew and an agent of the ADL and SPLC. 534 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: Don't trust him, and for God's sake, tell everyone you 535 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: know that he is not a national socialist. 536 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: And then he logged off. I suspect even if he 537 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: wasn't posting, though he still saw the news when Bill 538 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: White was arrested by the FEDS a few days later. 539 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: He was charged with making threats against the foreman of 540 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: the jury that convicted white supremacist leader Mat Pale. But 541 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: it didn't matter anymore. Even with Bill White offline and 542 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: behind bars, everyone in the movement already knew the truth 543 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: about Curtis Maynard, and they reviled him. 544 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 3: For it. 545 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: In December, his wife, Melissa, filed for divorce. I don't 546 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: think it was about this specifically, not really. I'm sure 547 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: there was a lot going on at home. It wasn't 548 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: just this online drama that drove them apart. I don't 549 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: think he was a great husband and father, to be honest. 550 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: He was home getting mad online while his wife supported 551 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: their family as an engineer, And given his history of 552 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: drug and alcohol abuse, it's hard not to imagine that 553 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: his sobriety is in question at this point. And if 554 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: he blamed Melissa, or just the color of her skin 555 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: for his loss of status in the movement, he may 556 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: have been taking out his anger on her. The divorce 557 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: moved quickly, and she was granted full custody of their 558 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: two daughters after he admitted in court that he'd once 559 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: left the baby home alone. In two thousand and nine, 560 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: he turned his anger toward his own divorce attorney, accusing 561 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: him of being a Mexican supremacist and working against his 562 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: own client in the case out of loyalty to his 563 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: own race, and he started more blogs. He started a 564 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: new site for his Holocaust denial blogging, but it failed 565 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: to attract the same level of interest as his writing 566 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: had in the past. In the past, he could count 567 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: on visitors to his site seeing his content cross posted 568 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: on bigger platforms like his friend David Duke's website on 569 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,240 Speaker 1: Vanguard News. But now there was no more free promo 570 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: from big name white nationalists, only long threads on the 571 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: forums making fun of him. A new account popped up 572 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: on the forum, posting in his defense. Other users quickly 573 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: determined that it was Maynard himself and bullied him off 574 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: the website again. He never admitted that was his account, 575 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: but in this limited instance, I have to say I 576 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: agree with the Nazi forum moderators on this one. The 577 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: writing style was very similar to Maynard's and he made 578 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: more blogs. He made several single issue blogs focused on 579 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: things like attacking his ex wife and attacking his divorce attorney. 580 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: One of those blogs is entirely gone from the Internet. 581 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: I can't even find a ghost of a page, and 582 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: that's probably for the best, because all of the references 583 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: to that blog indicate that it was dedicated to revenge 584 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: porn nude photographs of his ex wife that he'd taken 585 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: during their marriage and posted online after the divorce to 586 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: humiliate her. And now that he was banned from Stormfront 587 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: and Vanguard News, he redirected his forum posting energy into 588 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: a site called the Ron Paul Liberty Forest RP fan 589 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight was definitely Curtis Maynard. He registered 590 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: on the site just a few days after the blow 591 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: up with Bill White in December of two thousand and seven, 592 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,240 Speaker 1: and he posted three thousand times, including one thread complaining 593 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: about how Google was returning too few hits if he 594 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: searched for Curtis Maynard. His last thread on the Ron 595 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,959 Speaker 1: Paul forum started on January twenty sixth, twenty ten, three 596 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: months before Curtis made or died. He titled it my 597 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy riddled, hate filled, weird stupid Goodbye, And all of 598 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: the modifiers in that title are in scare quotes for 599 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: some reason, and he did spell weird wrong. The post 600 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: is confusing, it's very long. It seems like he'd become 601 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: disillusioned with the Ron Paul Revolution and he was growing 602 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: concerned that Paul's libertarian policy on drug legalization would lead 603 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: to widespread degeneracy in the destruction of society. He rambles 604 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: for a bit in the middle about the evils of 605 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:50,280 Speaker 1: pornography and usury. There are inexplicable variations in font sizes 606 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: and sentences that sort of trail off without concluding, and 607 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: then in very small font at the bottom of the post, 608 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: he wrote, I think RP Fan two thousand and eight 609 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: must decease from the forums. He later edited the post 610 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: to add a YouTube link called The Eternal Jew. The 611 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: link is dead, so it could have been something else, 612 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: but I assume it was the nineteen forty Nazi propaganda film. 613 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: Much of his Internet footprint from this time period is gone. 614 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 1: Blogs wiped out for terms of service violations before anyone 615 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:39,240 Speaker 1: archived them, links that go nowhere, comments referring to forum 616 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: posts on websites that haven't existed in over a decade. 617 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: But people on both sides of the issue, both white 618 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: nationalists and anti racist activists, saw Curtis Maynard's downward spiral. 619 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: He was unwell in May of two thousand and nine, 620 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: a year before he died, A white nationalist podcast host 621 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: made a passing reference to Maynard's history of accusing his 622 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: enemies of being secretly Jewish. The co host of the 623 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: show sort of processed the name for a moment and 624 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: then recalled that oh, Yeah, that's the guy that's been 625 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 1: really racist online, and then it came out that he 626 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 1: had a Latino wife and mixed race children. Adding that quote, 627 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: he seems a bit unstable to me. Plus he calls 628 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: all his old friends at VNN Jews. Now, I wouldn't 629 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: be surprised if he and his ex wife end up 630 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: in a murder suicide type deal. Around that same time period, 631 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: about a year before the murder suicide, a poster on 632 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,760 Speaker 1: an anti racist message board made the same terrible prediction, writing, 633 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if Maynard loses it and decides 634 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 1: to go on a spree and harms a bunch of 635 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: innocent people. Don't know how much you've followed about the guy, 636 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: but he's a nurse, which means there are people of 637 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: all races in a vulnerable position under this mentally ill 638 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: person's care for medications, food, ivs. That's the part that 639 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: bothers me the most, And it's that piecet why I've 640 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: sort of kept an eye on the guy. What if 641 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: this guy decides the Jews or the reason why his 642 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: wife won her freedom and successfully was able to save 643 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: herself and her kids. That post ends with a question 644 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: are his wife and children at risk? The sight has 645 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: long since crumbled to dust. The post is preserved only 646 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,720 Speaker 1: as a quote with a dead link on a defunct blog. 647 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,320 Speaker 1: So I don't know who it was that saw this coming, 648 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: but I know it must weigh heavily on their heart. 649 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: I don't think there was anything they could have done, though, 650 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: who could they call the police? The police wouldn't have 651 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: been her, he hadn't broken the law. By the time 652 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: Curtis Maynard did anything the police would have seen as 653 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:14,399 Speaker 1: reason to intervene, it was already over. And I won't 654 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: tell that part of the story again, and don't want to. 655 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 1: It's in the last episode, digging through hundreds of pages 656 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: of old forum posts and finding a twenty year old 657 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,879 Speaker 1: c Span video of Richard Spencer trying to make Ron 658 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: Paul laugh. Those things are fun for me. I live 659 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: for that shit. The bloody end, though, with a young 660 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: mother lying dead in her own front yard, that isn't 661 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: where I want to dwell. Curtis Maynard murdered Melissa Masa 662 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: on April twenty first, twenty ten. He died by suicide 663 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: not long after his stepdaughter survived being shot in the 664 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: face and his two younger daughters were able to escape 665 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: the house without being physically harmed. At the time of 666 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: the murder, Curtis Maynard had very recently remarried. Just two 667 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: months before he died, he married his third wife, and 668 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: when he died, she was pregnant with their child. When 669 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:33,879 Speaker 1: the news hit the Nazi forums, reactions buried some die 670 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,720 Speaker 1: hard conspiracy theorists jump right into their comfort zone, writing 671 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: things like I doubt the validity of the story's facts 672 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:46,879 Speaker 1: and think perhaps he was suicided, and Alex Jones's competitors 673 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: always seemed to die in mysterious events involving guns. Sounds 674 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,440 Speaker 1: like a setup to me. But those commenters were in 675 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: the minority. For people who knew Curtis Maynard online, for 676 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: those who'd followed his writing, there was some sorrow, but 677 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: very little shock. One longtime reader wrote, I really think 678 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: that he struggled to maintain perspective and demonstrated more than 679 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: a little barely controlled anger. It's unsurprising to me that 680 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: he met a violent end. Another said, I regret not 681 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: having attempted to contact him via email. The signs of 682 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 1: meltdown were there all along, but who expects something like this? 683 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 1: The posters on VNN, the site he was bullied off 684 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 1: of at least twice, had nobody for him. One of 685 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 1: the site's moderators wrote, God forgive me for repeating it. 686 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: Guess I won't have to ban him anymore for calling 687 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: everyone a jew. He's banned from life, one less race 688 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: mixer and batshit insane white national as to made us 689 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: all look bad. At least he took his Mexican ex 690 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,720 Speaker 1: wife with him. Many of the posts celebrated his death, 691 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: as well as his ex wife's. Posters who feuded with 692 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: him in the past, gloated about getting the last laugh, 693 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: and some hoped that more mixed race relationships would end 694 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:25,240 Speaker 1: like this one. As is often the case. When Nazi's 695 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,840 Speaker 1: Monday Morning quarterback a murder, many posters had notes writing 696 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: things like what a stupid fucker. He could have redeemed 697 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: himself by giving his life taking out an influential member 698 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,719 Speaker 1: of the anti white elite. That would have brought him 699 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: fame and respect instead of laughter and ridicule. Over on Stormfront, 700 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: where he hadn't posted since two thousand and seven, the 701 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,080 Speaker 1: posts seemed a little more I don't want to say thoughtful. 702 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,320 Speaker 1: That's not the right word. I guess my perspective is 703 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: pretty warped. At this point. No one is posting thoughtfully 704 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: on storm. I think I was just surprised that anyone 705 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,800 Speaker 1: there still had the capacity to consider something like this tragic, 706 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 1: because even users who had no problem with the man 707 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: murdering his ex wife thought it was just a little 708 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 1: over the line to shoot the stepdaughter. One user posted 709 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 1: he went off the deep end when he started writing 710 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,799 Speaker 1: about the fake moon landings. I'm afraid he lost all 711 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: ability to distinguish between lies and truth. I sent him 712 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 1: an email when he started on about the moon landings 713 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 1: and tried to rein him back in, but he wanted 714 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,920 Speaker 1: no part of it. His response to me was quite extreme, 715 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 1: and since I didn't know him personally, there wasn't much 716 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: else I could do. The forums lit up for a 717 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 1: few days, but then they moved on. Curtis Maynard wasn't 718 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: really missed in the places. He spent years posting furiously 719 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,240 Speaker 1: trying to make a name for himself. Every now and again, 720 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: someone remembers him. In twenty eighteen, eight Chan users were 721 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,720 Speaker 1: discussing the strange phenomenon of white supremacists with non white 722 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: wives and someone who knew the deep lore posted there 723 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 1: was a famous case of a guy on vn N 724 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,840 Speaker 1: called Melker who posed as a tough Nazi and was 725 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: meanwhile a house husband with a hispatic wife taking care 726 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,880 Speaker 1: of their daughter. Usually you learn of these things after 727 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:36,399 Speaker 1: the murder suicide. A fellow Holocaust and ire he'd been 728 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: toured in the early two thousands mentioned him fondly on 729 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 1: the eleventh anniversary of his death, offering a sentimental reflection 730 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,560 Speaker 1: about his dead friend. The post was buried deep in 731 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: the comment section of a conspiracy theory video posted by 732 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: an anti Semite in Idaho who has been asked by 733 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,240 Speaker 1: the Russian Orthodox Church to stop pretending to be a monk. 734 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: It's a fitting place, i guess, for the last remaining 735 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,320 Speaker 1: fond memory of a man whose rise and fall barely 736 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:20,959 Speaker 1: ever existed outside the comments section on racist blogs. Weird 737 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: Little Guys is a prorection of Kolzo Media and iHeartRadio. 738 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: It's research, written and recorded by me Holly Conger. Our 739 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: executive producers are Sophielectterman and Robert Evans. The show has 740 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme music 741 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,359 Speaker 1: is composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at 742 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 1: Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com. I will 743 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,360 Speaker 1: definitely read it, but I probably won't answer. It's nothing personal. 744 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other 745 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,880 Speaker 1: listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. If you're listening 746 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 1: to this the week it came out, you still have 747 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,960 Speaker 1: time to submit a question over there for an upcoming 748 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:57,240 Speaker 1: Q and a episode, but as always, just don't post 749 00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 1: anything that's going to make you one of my Weird 750 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:07,760 Speaker 1: Little Guys