1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You. From House toupports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and Caroline a little with something about me. 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I usually start out my day listening to Morning Edition 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: on NPR, as you I am. I am an NPR listener, 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm an NPR fan. And a little while ago a 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: story caught my attention because it was on Child Prodigies 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: and the subject of the story was this young woman 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: who started composing these gorgeous piano pieces when she was 10 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: three years old. Three man as someone who started playing 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: the piano when she was twenties six, I'm quite oppressed. Yeah, 12 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: And she had already recorded a few albums, she had 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: played Carnegie Hall she was twelve, and she even played 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: an impromptu peace for the host. He asked. He set 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: the scene of going having to show up at the 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: NPR studios really really early in the morning to record 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: Morning Edition. How quiet and kind of gloomy it is there, 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: And so he asked if she could play piece inspired 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: by that, and she did and it was beautiful, and 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: I thought, there, you know, it's interesting to hear about 21 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: this young woman being focused on as a child prodigy, 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: because I feel like a lot of times it's always 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: the boy prodigy, right, And you don't even realize when 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: you're reading all of these articles and things about prodigies 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: that it is all boys. It's very very male focused, right. 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: And so some commonly cited prodigies that a lot of 27 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: people bring up in these articles include Mozart, who began 28 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: playing the piano with three, picked up the violin at four, 29 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: wrote his first symphony by eight, and read his first 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: opera by twelve N B D New Big Deal Um. 31 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: There's also William James Sidis, who could read at eighteen months, 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: had written four books by seven, and was fluent in 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: eight languages at the same time. Gave a lecture at 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: Harvard at nine and entered Harvard at eleven, and his 35 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: background was in the field of math and cosmology. And 36 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: for lovecraft fans out there, yes, HP Lovecraft, one of 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: the most influential horror writers of the twentieth century, learned 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: to read at two and was writing complex poetry by six. 39 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: I would like to note, though, that I was also 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: writing poetry around the same time, and my first poem 41 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: was called I Had a Little Ladybug I'm not even lying, 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 1: and my mother told me it was beautiful. That's a 43 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: horribul So I didn't start writing poetry until around puberty 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: when everything was the worst. Yeah, yeah, the dark, angsty poems. 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: You know, Caroline, we should just do an episode of 46 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: bringing in our teenage poetry so time. No, well, you know, 47 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: when Geo City has wiped out its entire archive, my 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: poetry was lost to the ages. No. Yeah, Well. Some 49 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: other prodigies include Kim On young, who's a Korean professor now, 50 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: but at three years old he went to college as 51 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: a physics student and no big deal, was invited to 52 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: the US by NASA to study as he got his 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: pH d in the US. Yeah, I want to say 54 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: at one point, and maybe he still does hold the 55 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: Guinness World Record for being the smartest person on the planet. 56 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you'd have to be pretty smart to study 57 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: physics at three, But that's that's just me. Well, what 58 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: about Picasso? He had a total grasp of the fundamentals 59 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: of art before the age of twelve. But again, these lists, 60 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: like you said, are so dominated by guys. And we 61 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: have nothing against boy geniuses, not not at all. But 62 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: when I came upon not one, but two countdowns that 63 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: shaller remain nameless, that contained between both of them a 64 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: single female prodigy. You start to wonder what's going on 65 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: with this, And as we'll get into in the podcast, 66 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: there are some compelling patterns within or among i should say, 67 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: prodigies that does skew towards certain peculiarities with the male brain, 68 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: right and Lynn Goldsmith addressing the lack of girls from 69 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: these lists, she cited a study that describes an uncomfortably 70 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: large number of historical cases of exceedingly gifted women scientists 71 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: and mathematicians who found that they had to fight for 72 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: the simple privilege of instruction in their chosen fields. And 73 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: this is something that we kind of touched on in 74 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: our stem episodes because the fact that you have to 75 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: fight to even study something really affects whether you can 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: develop the skills and abilities in those areas. Yeah, and 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: this is a subject for an their podcast, but it 78 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,559 Speaker 1: often relates to perhaps our concept of the genius as 79 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: being male. But when we look at some of these 80 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: incredible lady minds, we can't leave out seventeenth century naturalist 81 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: and philosopher and Conway. By the time she was twelve, 82 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: she had already learned several languages and had begun serious 83 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: study of science and philosophy under her older brother. She 84 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 1: continued these studies throughout her lifetime, and in her early 85 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: forties she wrote a treatise entitled Principles of the Most 86 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: Ancient and Modern Philosophy, which ended up influencing to to 87 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: make a long story short, influencing a lot of mathematical 88 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: minds at the time. And speaking of math, when we 89 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: look at the story of Maria Agnesi, who became known 90 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: for the math studies that she completed while still in 91 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: her twenties, we see why there might have been more 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: impediments to women being recognized as geniuses to being able 93 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: to pursue those scholarly interests that they would naturally have 94 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: as these prodigies um Her father, who was also a 95 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: math professor at the University of Bologna, first noticed her 96 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: intellectual precocity, and he hired a fellow mathematician to service 97 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: her tutor. But on top of having to study all 98 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: this math that she was really great at, she also 99 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: had to oversee the education and care of her twenty 100 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: younger siblings. Uh, there's so much ah with that. But 101 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: but she still was able to publish a collection of 102 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: a hundred and ninety essays on philosophy, logic mechanics, elasticity, 103 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: celestial mechanics, and of course Newton's theory of universal gravitation 104 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: at the age of twenty. So absolutely this woman is 105 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: a prodigy if she is able to care for twenty children. 106 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: She reminds me of Lillian Gilbreath, the mother or modern management, 107 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: who we talked about in our engineering podcast, who did 108 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: all of this amazing work with an engineering and also 109 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: had twelve kids. Moving into a female prodigy of the 110 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: more modern era is Schicuntla Devi, who was born in 111 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: She is a mental calculator, able to perform exceedingly complex 112 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: arithmetic calculations with lightning speed. And you know, if you've 113 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: ever read any Oliver Stacks, you know about these incredible 114 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: brains who can make these computations at lightning speed. But 115 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: what's so awesome about Debby is she's the only case 116 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: of a girl calculator described in literature. So who knows 117 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: how many there have been, but she is the one 118 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: that the history books shall remember well. Speaking of being 119 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: a human calculator, you do see just with those three prodigies. 120 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: Right there, this pattern that you'll see among other prodigies 121 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: of being really drawn to man and science, two very 122 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: rules oriented disciplines. Um, But first, can we take a 123 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: moment away from the numbers and talk just a tiny 124 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: bit about words and what prodigy really means, because it 125 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: didn't just start out as a child who could do 126 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: something exceptional with their baby brains. Right. The origins of 127 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: the word lie with the Latin word prodigum, which means 128 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: prophetic sign or omen, and in the late fifteenth century 129 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: the word prodigy was used to refer to a sign portent, 130 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: something extraordinary from which omens are drawn. But then by 131 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: the sixteen fifties that meaning of the child with exceptional 132 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: abilities is first recorded. But moving to today, when we 133 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: hear about child prodigies, gifted children, savants, the lines between 134 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: them are often murky, but they are distinct things, and 135 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: we're focusing specifically in this episode on prodigies. And even 136 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: though prodigies and savants are marked by their remarkable capabilities 137 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: in specific domains like music, art, math, chess, in particular, 138 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: savant syndrome is more of a marker of an overall disability. Right, 139 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: uh noted researcher Daryld Trefford uh talks about savant syndrome 140 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: as islands of genius and ability in persons with certain 141 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: limitations or disability, like kids with autism, spectrum disorders, or 142 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: other central nervous system injuries, diseases or disorders. So it's 143 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of like you're a genius despite the fact that 144 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: you have a disability. And so the approach to savants 145 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: is often clinical. We need to fix their deficits. Whereas 146 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: when you look at the definition of prodigy coming from 147 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: David Feldman, who's a psychologist at University, a prodigy is 148 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: a child, typically under ten, who performs at the level 149 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: of a highly trained adult in a very demanding field 150 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: or endeavor. The approach to prodigies is for more of 151 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: a psychological perspective. We assume they're blessed and we want 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: to foster their incredible abilities. Yeah, And whereas gifted kids 153 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: do perform at a high level academically, prodigies are above 154 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: and beyond and it's usually focused in one area. Um, 155 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: but where did the modern interests and gifted children and 156 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: prodigies come from? Its fascinating because we have to talk 157 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: about this. Stanford psychologist named Louis Terman who coined the 158 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: term gifted to describe these kids who he felt like, 159 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: we're a lot like himself. Um and and really what 160 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: he wanted to do with his research on gifted kids 161 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: and prodigies was to crush the stereotype of the brainy, 162 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: bookish kid as just a frail oddball who couldn't get 163 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: along with other people, right, because he himself had grown 164 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: up on a farm with a lot of hardy siblings, 165 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: but he himself was was kind of bookish, and he 166 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: was sick of the stereotype that he was somehow weaker 167 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: just because he used his brains over his brawn. And 168 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: so when he came to Stanford in nineteen ten, he 169 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: was eager to measure intelligence and get to work in 170 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: that field. And so he adopted Benet's intelligence test for 171 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: US kids, calling at the Stanford Binet Test, and he 172 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: called this level of intelligence that he was trying to 173 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: capture the intelligence quotient i Q. And in nineteen sixteen, 174 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: when he released the book The Measurement of Intelligence, it 175 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: ushered in widespread i Q testing. But there is a 176 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: dark underbelly to these i Q tests because womp womp 177 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: Terman was also kind of a fan of eugenics. Yeah, 178 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: this was a major push behind his effort to identify 179 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: these gifted kids because he and his group of intelligence 180 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: tester testers envisioned i Q scores dictating what kind of 181 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: education and jobs a person could get. So whatever you're 182 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: a queue was, you would be a leader or you 183 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: would be institutionalized and discouraged from having children. Yeah. In 184 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: other words, Termin was pro sterilization for people who did 185 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: not consider that's smart um. But through i Q testing, 186 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: Termin identified more than a thousand subjects between the ages 187 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: of three and twenty eight with high i q s 188 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: for his grand study called the Genetic Study of Genius, 189 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: which has since been renamed the Term and Study of 190 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: Gifted Children. And he tracked these kids as long as 191 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: he lived, and some of these kids, who are obviously 192 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: now adults, are still being tracked to see what the 193 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: correlations are between having these high i q s. And 194 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: he also collected their personal information from them obviously, and 195 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: how they performed in life in terms of marriage, in 196 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: terms of jobs, uh, whether or not they got any 197 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: professional awards, things like that. And while this incredible study 198 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: basically helped establish methods for longitudinal studies and gave a 199 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: great snapshot of lives affected by World War one, World 200 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: War two, the Depression, all of this stuff. There were 201 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: some things that were undermining his study. That included his 202 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: personal relationships with the kids, the fact that the group 203 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: was overwhelmingly white, urban and middle class, and the gender 204 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: imbalance eight hundred and fifty six boys versus six hundred 205 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: seventy two girls, not to mention that there was no 206 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: comparison group. And even Terman himself was confused by the 207 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: gender imbalance because he, you know, he had asked for 208 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: he had enlisted teachers basically to help him identify the 209 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: top students in the class, and so he was surprised 210 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: too that they were more boys. Yeah, but I mean 211 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: it's when you look at that sample population, they're almost 212 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: all exclusively too, from California, for instance. So it's more, 213 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: how do kids in California who were brought up with 214 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: significant financial means fair? And they fair all right? Um, 215 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: two thirds of the men and women earned bachelor's degrees, 216 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: which is at ten times the national rate, and that 217 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: was happening during the Great Depression. On top of that, 218 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: and for instance, they collectively earned three d and fifty patents. 219 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: Although this was something that was pointed out in a 220 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: few articles. None of the kids in that Genius study 221 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: went on to become Nobel Prize winners. And actually I 222 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: think three two or three of the boys who signed 223 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: up for it but were later turned away went on 224 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: to win Nobel Prizes in physics. Boom, there you go. Um. 225 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: One interesting thing gender related from this term and study 226 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: is that the women in Termans study had fewer children 227 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: and bore them later in life than others of their generation. 228 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: More went to college and grad school, and more had careers, 229 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: and more remained unmarried, and the sort of foreshadows later trends. 230 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: So these California termites as they called themselves, were sort 231 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: of ahead of the curve. And despite the methodological flaws 232 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: in terman study, he was able to highlight shared characteristics 233 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: among the termites that you would still see today with 234 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: child prodigies. And there are three big factors that stood out. Obviously, 235 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: these kids have high i q s, but there's also 236 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: a lot of parental encouragement going on and confidence rather 237 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: than just having a high i Q. Right, And when 238 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: you look into the definition of prodigy that we get 239 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: with help from Terman, but also people like Feldman Um. 240 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: The definition of prodigy puts an emphasis on performance as 241 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: a criterion for calling someone a prodigy, as opposed to 242 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: things like i Q testing just looking at their i 243 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: Q prodigiousness as a distinctly human phenomenon. So, Kristen, you 244 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: just mentioned parental encouragement, so tied up and being a 245 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: prodigy is that it can only occur with the support 246 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: and assistance of other human beings. And so when you 247 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: look at parents roles, they're often involved in the same 248 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: or related field as their child prodigies. For example, Picasso 249 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: and Mozart's parents were in the same fields as their 250 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: prodigious children. And these parents are often older when they 251 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: have kids and are generally willing to devote major chunks 252 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: of time and energy to develop their children's talents. And 253 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: so behind this is the whole idea that like, okay, well, 254 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: you might be a frigant genius, but if nobody helps 255 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: foster your abilities, you're not going to flourish. And when 256 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: it comes to fostering abilities, there's also this emphasis on 257 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the specific realms within which prodigious behavior appears, as opposed 258 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: to again, psychometric intelligence, which aims to assess general intellectual ability. 259 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: You have kids who are incredible at math, incredible at chess, 260 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: who are creating the incredible complex paintings, and they tend 261 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: to be unusually focused, determined, and highly motivated to reach 262 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: the highest levels of their fields. One father of a 263 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: prodigy described his son's passion for math as a rage 264 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: to master. Yeah, in order to punish him, they would 265 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: tell him that he had to go play outside, because 266 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: that's all the kid wanted to do was read and 267 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: do math problems. Interesting, It's like an addict feeding their 268 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: math addiction. Well. Some other common characteristics of prodigies include 269 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: great confidence in their abilities, along with a naive sense 270 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: of these abilities in relation to those of others. There's 271 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: often a surprise that these kids experience that others don't 272 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: have their same abilities. They're like, you weren't three when 273 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: you want a Nobel prize? Yeah, exactly, And I would 274 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: never want to play a chess prodigy. They would be 275 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: sorely disappointed. Yeah, I would just start giggling nervously and 276 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: walk away. But when you look at the science behind prodigies, 277 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: asking the question of what exactly is going on in 278 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: these kids brains what sets them apart. Scientists still aren't sure. Yeah, 279 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: it is still a little murky. And while we talked 280 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: about how you can't have a prodigy without a supportive parent, 281 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: most of the arguments talking about the science of prodigies 282 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: focuses on nature over nurture, Because yes, you might have 283 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: a supportive parent who make sure that you do all 284 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: your studying and you have the money to go to 285 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: college at the age of five, But if you don't 286 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: already have some of that structural foundation in place already 287 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: that you know, becoming a prodigy isn't going to happen anyway. Yeah, 288 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: and Ellen Winner, who was a psychologist who has studied 289 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: and written about prodigies, told NPR quote, I believe that 290 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: anything that shows up so early without training has got 291 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: to be either a genetic or some other bio logical basis. 292 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's still not clear whether 293 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: her hunch is right, whether that prodigy brain is any 294 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: different from the brain of other kids, partially because they 295 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: simply have not done a lot of neurological research on 296 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: these exceptional children. Because like we talked about earlier, it's 297 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: the savants who have a lot of the scientific research, 298 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: because that's like, we need to fix these kids. It's 299 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: more of a psychologist's full philosophical debate over over prodigies. Almost, yeah, 300 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean because also with the savants, if they can 301 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: find the areas of the brains that are working in overdrive, 302 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: then maybe they can apply that to help other areas 303 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: of the brain catch up, whereas prodigies will be fine 304 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: most likely. Yeah, And so looking at brain differences, there 305 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: is the possibility that gifted children, for instance, have greater 306 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: specialization in brain areas that control motor behavior and increased 307 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: communication between the two hemispheres, although nobody's quite sure whether 308 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: prodigies are born with superior motor skills or if they 309 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: developed them through intense practice. Well, and there are also 310 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: issues of genetics that come up a lot because the 311 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: kids from term and study those termites went on to 312 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: have exceptionally bright children as well, with six scoring in 313 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: the gifted range, although again there's a nature question of 314 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: whether or not those kids were being brought up told 315 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: that they were bright because they have exceptionally bright parents 316 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: as well. And then there's this theory of ancestral memory, 317 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: which is something that a guy named darryld Trefford has 318 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: talked about and and he thinks that maybe something called 319 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: epigenetics is responsible for this. And epigenetics is essentially a 320 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: mechanism in which environmental influences will make small changes in 321 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: our d N a that helped to control the systems 322 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: that switch genes off and on and pass those changes down. 323 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: In other words, DNA in our acts with the environment 324 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: to improve our mental functioning. Yeah, there's the commonly cited 325 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: um story of Yehudi Menuhin, who is a violinist, and 326 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: his family story is really interesting. He comes from a 327 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: long line of extremely musical, extremely spiritual uh Jewish Men 328 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: who incorporated music into their religious practices, and so he's 329 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: used as an example of this ancestral memory theory because 330 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: even though his family immigrated to the US and distanced 331 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: themselves from their extremely traditional and religious ancestors, there was 332 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: something in him, as people talk about being in other prodigies, 333 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: that that drew him to music from a very young 334 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: age to become this incredible, amazing, talented prodigy. And that 335 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: sounds very similar to this idea of prodigies being quote 336 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: unquote re tuned to grasp and master particular areas. And 337 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: this is something put forward by that toughs psychologist Feldman 338 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: Um who thinks that maybe they are equipped with a 339 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: readiness to absorb and also express knowledge, and that would 340 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: explain how and why prodigies are drawn to very domain 341 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: specific skills. You know, there we talked about how they're 342 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: extreme specialists finally attuned to a particular field of knowledge, 343 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: rather than having these kids just be amazing across the board. 344 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: And then finally there's this theory put forward by Larissa 345 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: Shavivna and Martha Morlock of the increased sensitivity. They think 346 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: that there are these sensitive periods that occur when basically 347 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: your mental development can accelerate really rapidly, and and part 348 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: of what makes that process so rapid is the actualization 349 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: of the intellectual potential and the growth of those cognitive 350 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: resources at the same time. And it manifests as a 351 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: child's passionate pursuit of consuming interest. But you can almost 352 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: think of it as like really rapidly building a lego ladder, 353 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: but of knowledge and memory, a lego ladder of knowledge. Um. 354 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: But but speaking you mentioned memory, there is obviously two 355 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: ties with exceptional working memory in these kids. This is 356 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: something that studies do seem to bear out in terms 357 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: of prodigies having brains that have just a finer tuned 358 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: ability to hold information in the memory while being able 359 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: to manipulate and process other incoming information. Because when we 360 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: when we think about our working memory, and how telephone numbers, 361 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: for instance, are split up those three digits and in 362 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: the four digits to help us hold them in our brains, 363 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: and even then sometimes I have trouble remembering them, whereas 364 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: prodigies can see a whole string of numbers and many 365 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: manipulate them at the same time. Right, And that basically 366 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: you have all of this stuff stored up in the 367 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: back of your mind, but a prodigy is taking new 368 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: information that comes in and immediately being able to kind 369 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: of rummage around in the long term memory closet and 370 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: pull some stuff out and apply the new information to 371 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: the old information. And therefore, like we just talked about, 372 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: build that sort of cognitive ladder to come to new 373 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: and faster conclusions. Yeah, and research on gifted kids by 374 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: Camilla Benbo has also highlighted uh specializations in whether the 375 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: child is more mathematically oriented or more verbally oriented, and 376 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: how the math talent has a working memory that's really 377 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: great obviously at retaining numerical, spatial, and visual information, whereas 378 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: verbal kids tend to retain the words. Because I'm telling you, 379 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: if you read I had a little ladybug, I mean 380 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: just the playful puns kid, I did have some good 381 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: rhymes in there, though, oh no, I'm sure you did 382 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: um well. So the researchers talk about how this enhanced memory, 383 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: like let's go back to the ladder one more time. 384 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: This enhanced memory is a function of a match between 385 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: the kind of information that is needing to be recalled 386 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: and the kind of talent possessed. So in a prodigy, 387 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: it's that unique intersection of I already sort of have 388 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: this capability, this foundation of information that I've grasped onto, 389 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: whether it's math, whether it's chest, whether it's the piano, 390 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: and you know, and that just intersects with what they're 391 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: able to do well. Speaking of the brain of the prodigy, 392 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: and also this puzzle of why we hear about male 393 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: prodigies boy prodigies a lot more often, or at least 394 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: we have historically compared to female prodigies. We have to 395 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: talk about a potential link with autism spectrum disorders because 396 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: this is also some of the newer research that is 397 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: coming up with these extremely gifted children. Right in Joanne 398 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: Ruthstats and Jordan Rbach looked at eight high i Q 399 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: kids whose various abilities were all over the place, but 400 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: in common they had an extraordinary working memory. Each kid 401 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: scored off the charts better than the general population. But 402 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: in that study, four out of the eight prodigies had 403 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: family members who either had an autism diagnosis or had 404 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: a first or second degree relative with an autism diagnosis. 405 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: Three of the prodigies themselves had been diagnosed with autism, 406 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: and as a group, they all showed higher levels of 407 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: autistic traits than a control group. And people have pointed 408 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: out to how autistic like traits stand out in prodigies, 409 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: like that attention to detail, that rage to master. The 410 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: kids scored higher on this and people diagnosed with Asperger's 411 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: in fact, which is a high functioning form of autism. 412 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: And on top of that, both prodigies and kids on 413 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: the autism spectrum are more likely to be male, and 414 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: both are associated to with difficult pregnancies. Very interesting. Yeah Well, 415 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: Time magazine and pointed out that prodigies appear to benefit 416 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: from certain autistic tendencies while avoiding the shortfalls of others. 417 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: So think of a savant versus the prodigy um and 418 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: the researchers Rustats and Herbak wrote one possible explanation for 419 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: the child prodigies lack of deficits is that while the 420 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: child prodigies may have a form of autism, a biological 421 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: modifier suppresses many of the typical signs of autism, but 422 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: leaves attention to detail, a quality that enhances their prodigiousness 423 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: undiminished or even enhanced. So, in other words, prodigies genetic 424 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: traits don't compromise their social skills or lead them to 425 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: suffer from disabilities that typically typically accompany autism spectrum disorders. Yeah, 426 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: for instance, when you look at a kid like Jacob Barnett, 427 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: who might stump from earlier because his name is popped 428 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: up in the media a lot in the past couple 429 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: of years because he was diagnosed with autism at two 430 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: and his mom eventually took him out of special lett. 431 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: I think when he was in elementary school because the 432 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: teachers told her that he would really just never even 433 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: be able to tie his shoes. But now he's fourteen 434 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: and have having been allowed to kind of guide his 435 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: own studies. He's now studying condensed matter of physics in college. 436 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: And I watched part of a ted X talk that 437 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: he gave about math and about how when he first 438 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: applied to college he had to wait a semester because 439 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: the administrators weren't sure whether or not he was really ready. 440 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: And he was like, you know what I did. I 441 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: just started studying this theorem that some people are saying, 442 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: if I solve it, I could be up for the 443 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize. No big deal, No big deal. But I 444 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: mean clearly he's I mean he's giving a TEDEX talk. 445 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: I mean that he's he's socialized very well and is 446 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: performing far above what special ed teachers thought that he 447 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: would be able to. And talking about her son's just 448 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: incredible abilities, Barnett's mom talks about how, you know, he 449 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: wasn't speaking, There was just no getting through to him. 450 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: She was afraid she would lose him, almost But it 451 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: was a matter, in her opinion, as his mother, of 452 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: getting him in front of something that just absolutely captured 453 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: that incredible focus. Yeah, and surprisingly it was shadows. He 454 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: was fascinated by shadows and how they played on the 455 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: wall and and you know, in other environments and was 456 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: also fascinated by stars, and she just let him kind 457 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 1: of go with that and really start exploring and and 458 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,719 Speaker 1: it brings up all of these theories about how you 459 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: have you know, those either those sensitive periods or that 460 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: pre tunement to just absorb all that knowledge in that 461 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: specialized field at such an accelerated pace. And there's I 462 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of um like media questioning 463 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: as far as what happens to prodigies when they grow up. 464 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: There's less, as we've talked about, less actual research into 465 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: what happens to these kids when they become adults. One 466 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: suggestion is that just the prodigy, the quote unquote prodigy 467 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: disappears as the child gets older and they catch up 468 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: to adults and kids catch up with them. Yeah. I mean, 469 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: there's sort of a limitation to the kinds of fields 470 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: that prodigies are often drawn to, in that it is 471 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: very mathey or very focused on chess. It's often uh 472 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: fields within very specific and laid out rules, like that 473 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: the work has kind of already been done, and so 474 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: the prodigy sometimes tapers off when they have to think 475 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: more creatively and to apply their knowledge to more open 476 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: ended kinds of things, right, which is why it's so 477 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: rare to see a prodigy like writing, uh, you know, 478 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: writing a novel or writing a play, because a lot 479 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: of the time, something like writing a play or writing 480 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: a scientific paper calls on so many other resources in 481 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: life experiences that a three year old, however, brilliant, would 482 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: not have. Although you see so many visual art prodigies, 483 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: or specifically with painting, I feel like that's kind of 484 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: the hot prodigy today is the child painter. And that's 485 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: one reason why that psychologist Ellen Winner was really impressed 486 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: by the story of a child prodigy cellist who was 487 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: I think he's now in his late twenties early thirties 488 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: and is branching out from classical and trying to do 489 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: more experimental types of music. And she said, that's really 490 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: rare to see within a prodigy because it's almost like 491 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: that that specialized part of the brain is so specialized 492 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: they get locked in right well, and and I mean 493 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: not even just being locked into a specialty, but also 494 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: being told your entire freaking life by your parents and 495 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: teachers and whoever else is around you that your omite, 496 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: you're so incredible, you're so incredible, You're so gifted your genius. 497 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of in interviews, a lot of 498 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: these child prodigies and gifted children grow up and they 499 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: are like, God, you guys put too much pressure on me. 500 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: I you know, I couldn't live up to a single 501 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: thing that you expected of me. There was one kid 502 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: who was a math prodigy and he is an adult 503 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: working at McDonald's. You know. I mean a lot of 504 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: these kids are just like, there was way too much 505 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: pressure when when I was no longer the hot thing, 506 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, I just felt like I was a failure. Yeah. 507 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: There's a young artist right now who first made her 508 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: name a couple of years ago when she was a 509 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: six year old I believe painter. And now she came 510 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: out with a new exhibit as a nine year old painter. 511 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: And people aren't disinterested because it becomes less fascinating the 512 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: older that they get. But for that reason, Ellen Winner says, 513 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: it's so dangerous to call children geniuses. Instead, she says, 514 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: say something along the lines of your terrifically musical, and 515 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: you're going to have a wonderful musical life. Um. And 516 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: I also thought it was noteworthy that in that story 517 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: on child prodigies that first got me thinking about this subject. 518 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: On NPR, the twelve year old pianists that they were 519 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: interviewing hates the word prodigy. She says, please don't call 520 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: me a prodigy. Yeah, it's it's a lot of pressure 521 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. Well, and especially these days, if you're 522 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: a prodigy, you are going to be immediately blasted out 523 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: onto the internet too. That's going to become your identity, 524 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: probably forever. But I do still wonder though, with that 525 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: gender aspect, with overall the names of prodigies usually being 526 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: more boy names than girl names, if it does link 527 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: over to that relationship, possibly with autism and maybe how 528 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: autism affects the male brain more or differently. I mean, 529 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: so if we look at one and eight kids has autism, 530 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: but that number is one in fifty four for boys, 531 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: were naturally going to find more boys with autism, And 532 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: if autism is linked to being a prodigy, I would 533 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: think those numbers would translate over. But I also think 534 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: that researcher Goldsmith, who we mentioned at the top of 535 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 1: the podcast, has there's something to her theory that hey, 536 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: if women aren't welcome in a field, you're not going 537 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: to be able to even ever recognize their genius in 538 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: it exactly because autism obviously can't explain that gap entirely, 539 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: because not all prodigies are autistic, and not all autistic 540 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: kids are prodigies, And so I have a feeling that 541 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: the nature side of that argument is maybe more to blame, 542 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: because I do I do you think there's something to 543 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: this theory that we think of geniuses as men? Mhm. 544 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: Podcast for another time, Podcast for another time. Maybe our 545 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: listeners have the answer. Oh, if there are any prodigies listening, 546 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: please right into us, or parents of prodigies. If you 547 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: are a parent too, do you think about whether or 548 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: not your child is a prodigy? I thought about this 549 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: while reading up on all of these children, and I 550 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: can see how if you're a parent and all of 551 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: a sudden your child starts playing the piano magnificently, and 552 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: you might get so overzealous, But it seems like there's 553 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: also a lot of responsibility for the parent as well. Yeah, 554 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: but what about you, Caroline, would you want a child 555 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: prodigy of your own? Of my very own? That does 556 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: seem like a really big responsibility. I would in no 557 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: way be able to teach or tutor a child in math. 558 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: So I guess I would I would like a prodigy dog. 559 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: A prodigy dog like it had a pre tunement for 560 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: not wedding the carpet and a pretunement for fetching you treats. 561 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, the dog catches me the treats. I 562 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: think we're onto something. So follow up episodes on boy 563 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: geniuses and prodigy dogs. Correct great? Well with that, we 564 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: want to hear from you mathematicians, pianists. Who's listening less? No, 565 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can 566 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: send your emails. You can also tweet us at mom 567 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast and find us on Facebook and messages there 568 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: as well. And we have a couple of messages to 569 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: share with you when we come right back from a 570 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: quick break. And now back to our letters. Well, we 571 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: have a couple of letters here from some women and engineering. 572 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: All right, Uh, this is obviously in response to our 573 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: episode on women in engineering. Yeah, yeah, who's the prodigy now? 574 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: And this letter is unsigned, so I'll just dive right in. 575 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: As a recent female graduate with a degree in biochemical engineering, 576 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: I think that the STEMS series is awesome. I was 577 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: lucky enough to have family members in the engineering field 578 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: to encourage me to pursue an engineering degree since I 579 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: chose biomedical. The male to female ratio is pretty good 580 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: at my school, but now that I'm in the real world, 581 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: I am one of three women in my department. I 582 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: don't find this intimidating, though. I find it empowering that 583 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: I am just as capable as all of the men 584 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: in the room, and I love the field that I'm 585 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,959 Speaker 1: working in. As for the industrial engineering being a quote 586 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 1: unquote joke engineer, at least at my school, that didn't 587 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: originate from the amount of women in the field, but 588 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: from the fact that they only take half engineering classes 589 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: and half business classes, which when you compare the workloads, 590 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: seems much easier. Although this may be true, I think 591 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: there are also many in engineers who don't have a 592 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: skill set to work in a more people oriented setting, 593 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 1: so the two are very hard to compare. So thanks 594 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: for that insight, UM. I have a letter here from Sherry, 595 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: who followed her father's footsteps into engineering. Sherry says engineering 596 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: work can be interesting, challenging, and project oriented, and many 597 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: jobs are just eight am to five pm on week days, 598 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: and she says it's usually a more family friendly career 599 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: path compared to others. Plus, demand for engineers tends to 600 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: be stronger than in most other professions. In my experience, 601 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: I found that male attitudes, especially in undergrad tended to 602 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: be very positive towards women being in engineering. The guys 603 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: love that they could discuss science and math with a girl, 604 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: and they seemed to wish they were more in engineering. 605 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: I must confess, though, that my experience and undergrad as 606 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: an engineering student was miserable, suffering from the impostor syndrome 607 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: and from a desire to have good enough grades for 608 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: law school. I studied very hard and had very little 609 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: social life. I can remember studying on many a Friday night. 610 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,919 Speaker 1: In the end, those miserable four years were definitely worth it, though, 611 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: because I am very happy with my career now. I 612 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: think many women don't realize that engineering is a valuable 613 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: stepping stone toward other careers like management, law, and even 614 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: sales and marketing. You have to be able to understand 615 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: the product in order to spell it. More and more 616 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: folks on Wall Street have backgrounds in physics, math and 617 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: engineering too, so even if you aren't passionate about engineering itself, 618 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: it can set you on a path to and open 619 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: doors for other fulfilling careers. So thank you Sherry for 620 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: sharing your story, and thanks again to everyone who's written in. 621 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at discovery dot com is where you can 622 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: send your letters. 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