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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the

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Speaker 1: Death of Me, a production of I Heart Radio. We

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Speaker 1: are here today in studio again. I've enjoying my in

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Speaker 1: studio interviews with a very dear friend of mine, and

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Speaker 1: he has been recently taking ketamine. What's the proper ketamine infusions?

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Speaker 1: You've been taking them? You've been doing them? What's the

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Speaker 1: proper verbiage for that? I've been Um, I've been doing

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Speaker 1: ketamine infusions. Okay, So because of depression, and I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are interested. I certainly am after

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Speaker 1: reading Michael Pollan's book about psychedelics, about psilocybin, about all

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Speaker 1: the different kind of PTSD trauma that it helps either

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Speaker 1: kind of diminish or deteriorate or I don't know, so

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Speaker 1: whether it's acid, whether it's m D M A, whether

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Speaker 1: it's psilocybin or academine. This is kind of the new

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Speaker 1: wave of pichedelics and this kind of there's a new

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Speaker 1: acceptance happening of people and neuroscientists and psychiatrists and psychologists

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Speaker 1: using it to help patients. So I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about your experience, Alec, because I've known you

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Speaker 1: for how many How many years have we been engaged

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Speaker 1: A long time? Like? Is it ten years? Yeah? Probably

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Speaker 1: ten years? Okay? And Brandon, how long have I known you?

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Speaker 1: Three years? Okay? Three years? Okay, good to know. And

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Speaker 1: I'm forty four. Okay, So talk to me a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your research and why you decided to to

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Speaker 1: start kadamine infusions. Okay. Well, I've had depression, probably from

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Speaker 1: my mid twenties, so I've been on that the word

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Speaker 1: you hate journey. I'm trying to figure that out for

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Speaker 1: um a couple of decades now. And I've been on

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Speaker 1: antidepressants most of my life, I guess, all different kinds,

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Speaker 1: And while they definitely stabilize one's mood or my mood,

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Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily return me to a place that I

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Speaker 1: would characterize as what I remembered when I was not depressed.

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Speaker 1: And so when I started reading about ketamine and ketamine infusions,

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Speaker 1: the thing that intrigued me was the ketamine seems to

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Speaker 1: work on a completely different basis than any antidepressant. Most

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Speaker 1: antidepressants that are used today are called S S R I,

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Speaker 1: and so they have a specific mechanism in the brain ketamine, which, weirdly,

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Speaker 1: scientists don't, and doctors don't fully understand why exactly it's

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Speaker 1: having such a strong antidepressive effect. Nonetheless, they do know

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Speaker 1: that it works completely differently than s S. Al Right,

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Speaker 1: So I was just intrigued to see, could that, you know,

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Speaker 1: restore more joy into my life. So while I was stabilized,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of see if I could turned

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Speaker 1: to a place where I was even happier. Okay, and

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Speaker 1: so you're still on your antidepressants and you do the

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Speaker 1: ketamine and fusion. Yes, I'm on antidepressants, and ketamine is

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Speaker 1: kind of an adjunct therapy for me. Ketamine has great

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Speaker 1: speed in its action, which is why I like it's

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Speaker 1: kind of revolutionary for people with suicidal tendencies because the

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Speaker 1: anti suicidal effect is almost mediate, whereas most antidepressants require

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Speaker 1: like anywhere from three to six weeks to building your system,

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Speaker 1: and even then you don't know whether an antidepressant, a

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Speaker 1: particular one is going to work for you or not,

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Speaker 1: but especially for patients who are suicidal, obviously that's too

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Speaker 1: long a period to wait. And so one of the

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Speaker 1: most groundbreaking things about ketemine was that it has an

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Speaker 1: immediate effect. So yeah, for me, though, ketamine. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: suicidal by any means. I was managing on my typepressants,

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Speaker 1: but I was intrigued and I want to see if

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Speaker 1: ketamine infusions could make me better. So around a year

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Speaker 1: and a half ago, I went down to La Hoya

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Speaker 1: and I did a series of around seven or eight

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Speaker 1: ketamine infusions. Because initially they kind of suggest that you

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Speaker 1: do a series of them with a few days apart

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Speaker 1: between each infusion, and then after that there really isn't

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Speaker 1: any clear cut guidance or guideline about how often you

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Speaker 1: need to do it from that point on or if

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Speaker 1: you need to do it, And I think it's an

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Speaker 1: individual thing. Like in my case, well, after the first

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Speaker 1: eight I waited like six months, I didn't feel the need,

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Speaker 1: and then I started doing like once every four weeks

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Speaker 1: or so. But there's nothing hard and fast about that.

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Speaker 1: So but what do those infusions look like? Is somebody

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Speaker 1: sitting there with you, like what are you taking? Because

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Speaker 1: remember I put you in touch with a front of

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Speaker 1: mine from high school who was also experimenting with ketamine infusion,

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Speaker 1: and she was kind of not taking the right cocktail. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, she wasn't taking the right cockati. Here's the

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Speaker 1: problem with ketamine infusions is that, by and large it's

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Speaker 1: like a little bit the Wild West in terms of

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Speaker 1: how doctors are giving it. Because it's a drug that

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Speaker 1: was created as an anesthetic and used in the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: and then ketamine then became used widely by vets, and

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously as a party drug sometimes. But once

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Speaker 1: it's therapeutic unit quality was discovered, the doctor's giving it

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Speaker 1: tended to be anesthesiologists and not necessarily psychiatrists. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I went to Lahoya was because I found

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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist who was giving ketamine um. When I returned

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Speaker 1: to Los Angeles. My first ketamine infusion in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: was a horrible experience, as I went to an anesthesiologist

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Speaker 1: who basically stuck me in a dark room and told

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Speaker 1: me to lie on the exam table. It was completely

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Speaker 1: pitch black when he left the door closed, and I

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Speaker 1: had a horrible experience. So when I spoke to your friend,

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Speaker 1: she too had gone to one of these clinics that

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Speaker 1: we're giving ketamine infusions, but they had not only given

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Speaker 1: her ketamine, but they had mixed it for no good

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Speaker 1: reason with propofol and not Michael Jackson, trash and Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 1: It's like another anesthetic which has no help for depressive purposes.

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Speaker 1: But I imagine they gave it to knock her out

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Speaker 1: so that she wouldn't require any supervision while she had

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Speaker 1: the ketamine. So it's a tricky thing. You have to

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Speaker 1: make sure that you find someplace where there is going

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Speaker 1: to be either a doctor or nurse practitioner with you

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Speaker 1: in that room while you have the infusion, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of places don't do that. And so when you

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Speaker 1: do sit down with in the right environment, you want

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Speaker 1: to sit down with somebody like are you setting an

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Speaker 1: intention for your experience? Are you going there to resolve

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Speaker 1: in a specific issue or just for your overall better

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Speaker 1: well being? I think you're going to get an overall benefit.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a little different than let's say, if you're

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Speaker 1: creating an intention for a psilocybin or LSD trip. Therapeutically,

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Speaker 1: that's discussed more. They don't really talk about ketamine intention.

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Speaker 1: That said, though, I have definitely found that before a

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Speaker 1: ketamine infusion, I can set not an intention so much

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Speaker 1: as like a subject I want to explore. In fact,

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Speaker 1: when I was in Lahoya. You and I were working

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Speaker 1: on a TV project and there are a couple of

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Speaker 1: infusions where before I did them, I was like, I

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Speaker 1: wish I could figure out what we're going to do

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Speaker 1: with that series. And during the courts of the ketamine trip,

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Speaker 1: as I call them, I did kind of go into

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Speaker 1: some you know, thought processes and came out with certain

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Speaker 1: insights and kind of breakthroughs. I think I called you

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, right you did, because and sometimes interestingly,

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Speaker 1: you come out of your ketamine infusion and you're like

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Speaker 1: very kind of off your It takes a moment to

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Speaker 1: adjust and like, for instance, this week, you said I'm

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Speaker 1: going to stay protect myself from the next twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours because I'm in this state where you kind of

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Speaker 1: have to digest what you've experienced. That's a really good point.

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Speaker 1: The thing with ketamine is sometimes you come out of

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Speaker 1: it and you feel really happy, and that happens i'd

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Speaker 1: say like seventy percent of the time. But there are

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Speaker 1: other times where after an infusion where you feel a

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Speaker 1: little more vulnerable. And one of my psychiatrists who does

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Speaker 1: ketamine infusion told me, because I hadn't one experience where

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Speaker 1: I did ketamine, and then I went out to dinner

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Speaker 1: with a group of people who were very anxious and

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Speaker 1: fear based and very negative. And the next morning I

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Speaker 1: woke up and my loote had plunged, And my psychiatrists

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Speaker 1: explained that you're kind of more open right after academie

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Speaker 1: confusion because your brain is actually creating new synapses. That's

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Speaker 1: what the beginning of research is showing that it's actually

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Speaker 1: kedemine over the course of forty eight hours begins to

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Speaker 1: create new synapses, and so during that period it's better

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Speaker 1: for you to be creating synapses on like happier pathways

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Speaker 1: than on anxious or pathways. So his suggestion, which I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to put into practice now, is yeah, for like

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Speaker 1: the first twenty four hours, or certainly for the first evening,

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Speaker 1: just staying in, you know, being kind of reflective, doing

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Speaker 1: things that Yeah, there you go. I don't think the

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Speaker 1: brings you anything that brings you an explosion of joy,

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Speaker 1: anything that brings you closer to yourself after the kintamine treatment.

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Speaker 1: Could being alone have an adverse effect on people? Though?

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Speaker 1: It like, if you are a depressive person or someone

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Speaker 1: who gets anxious, would it be better for you, or

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Speaker 1: for someone per se to be in a group of

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Speaker 1: happy people are doing something active that makes them happy.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but

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Speaker 1: I would say that no, because right after ketamine, you're

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Speaker 1: not feeling particularly lonely, like you're in a pretty nice state.

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Speaker 1: It's more dangerous to subject yourself to anxiety or anything

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Speaker 1: or new. You want to go to your safe spot

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Speaker 1: for him, that means he goes home and it hangs

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Speaker 1: out by like I can call Chelsea. In fact, I do.

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Speaker 1: She's usually my first call after my ketamine because I'm usually,

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Speaker 1: like you know, very anxious to tell her what I experienced.

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Speaker 1: But there are certain incoming calls that I won't take anymore,

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Speaker 1: you know, right after actamine, and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: that has to do with work or right. But also,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think all these drugs are interesting because

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Speaker 1: everybody has a different you know, like when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about micro docing, you know, I did mushrooms at my

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Speaker 1: house this weekend with a bunch of people recreationally. I

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Speaker 1: did chocolate mushrooms and they were really really mellow and

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Speaker 1: really mild and in that kind of environment. Now that

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Speaker 1: I know what I do about these hallucinogens. I try

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Speaker 1: to be really mindful instead of just taking drugs to

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Speaker 1: party and laugh my house off, I try and actually

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Speaker 1: really and enjoy the moment and really be present in

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Speaker 1: the moment. Now they're prescribing psilocybin, micro docing me for

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Speaker 1: research in a research state, prescribing, well, I'm prescribing it.

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Speaker 1: I have a surplus of it. And I can picture

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Speaker 1: you going at CPS and going high. I need my

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Speaker 1: psilocybin dose. Give it to me now. It's called Chelsea Handler. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: I was skiing. Where was I being, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: sun Valley, maybe this winter, and somebody said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have a bunch of fun guy, and I went,

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Speaker 1: is that what we're calling it now? And she said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's micro dosing psilocybin. And so we all took some, obviously,

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Speaker 1: because anything that's available to me, I'll just eat. And

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Speaker 1: I noticed the tiniest kick up. I was just awake

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Speaker 1: a little bit more. I wasn't hallucinating by any means,

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Speaker 1: but everything was a little bit more sparkly, much the

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Speaker 1: same as it is if I were to take an

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Speaker 1: edible while I was skiing, you know, like a micro

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Speaker 1: dosed edible. But with that, you know a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that too, because there's like suggested cycles when you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to take that correct. Yeah, micro dosing is is

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Speaker 1: another kind of modality that is being heavily researched down

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Speaker 1: for depression, and that seems to work on a different

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Speaker 1: level than um ketamine and basically most psychedelics. What research

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Speaker 1: shows is that they camped down the brain default mode network,

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Speaker 1: and the brain default mode network, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: a prefrontal brain thing, is basically what kind of serves

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Speaker 1: as a traffic warden in your brain, and it kind

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Speaker 1: of stops certain connections and keeps you, if you want

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Speaker 1: to call it, kind of feeling sane. But it also

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Speaker 1: keeps you very much ego based, very much about your

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Speaker 1: own kind of history, like this is my past, is

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Speaker 1: my present, this is my future. So that's what the

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Speaker 1: brain default mode network does, and what they've realized is

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Speaker 1: psilocybin or LSD or any number of these things seems

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Speaker 1: to suppress that, and so suddenly you're making connections in

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Speaker 1: your brain that you don't usually make, and they've noticed

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Speaker 1: that that can have even more long term effects on

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Speaker 1: depression that's been shown with megadosis of psilocybin or LST,

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Speaker 1: where they're seeing like depression going away for if not

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Speaker 1: even years, by one megados one mechadz, I mean that

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Speaker 1: is like that is a retreat I could have at

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Speaker 1: my house for people. I mean, I would totally be illegal,

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Speaker 1: but okay, well then I'll change my address so you

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Speaker 1: could move to the Netherlands though where it is, I

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Speaker 1: don't think. I'm not thinking about moving to Brendon. Can

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Speaker 1: you please find me a house. I'm working with real

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Speaker 1: estate agents all over. Don't worry. Yes, ski season is coming,

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Speaker 1: so we have to get creative. She's trying to find

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Speaker 1: out drug watts in all different countries. In Spain. By

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Speaker 1: the way, in Spain, it's legal to do mushrooms, and

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Speaker 1: I have a house there, so I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: a coincidence. So micro dosing, though, is basically taking that

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Speaker 1: same philosophy and kind of saying, Okay, if you take

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Speaker 1: a micro dose over time, can that have the same effect?

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Speaker 1: And there isn't proof yet either way, but in both

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Speaker 1: these situations and one of the things you just said about,

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Speaker 1: like when you do chocolate mushrooms, the setting and the

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Speaker 1: scene is incredibly important, so again a little bit like ketamine,

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Speaker 1: Like it's really important who you do it with, whether

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Speaker 1: you feel safe, whether you like the space you're in,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff, and that has effects even in terms

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Speaker 1: of what your takeaway is from it. So um, I

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Speaker 1: think that's true for ketamine as well, which is why

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Speaker 1: I say, like, make sure that the place you're going

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Speaker 1: feels comfortable, like the room you're doing it in, that

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Speaker 1: you feel a connection, or you feel safe with the

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Speaker 1: nurse or the doctor doing you know, giving it to you.

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Speaker 1: Those things actually seem to affect the result. So micro

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Speaker 1: dosing is is basically just the mini psilocybin dose. But

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Speaker 1: I found when I attempted it that it corresponded very

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Speaker 1: much with what my state of mind was before I

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Speaker 1: did it. So if I was like a little anxious

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Speaker 1: that day, it would make me more anxious. If I

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Speaker 1: wasn't anxious, or I was feeling creative, it would make

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Speaker 1: me a little bit more creative. And I personally decided

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to I didn't want to go either

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Speaker 1: those ways. And that's when I took those mushrooms from

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Speaker 1: you and decided to use them for thank you for

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Speaker 1: making me your dealer. So that didn't work for you.

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Speaker 1: Now a couple of the other things because a lot

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Speaker 1: you know, like for instance, ayahuasca isn't a drug that

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Speaker 1: people who are taking an antidepressant are supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: Remember we looked into that for you when I was

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Speaker 1: going to do it, and anybody on an SSR one

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Speaker 1: s R I, well, here's the thing. I was just

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Speaker 1: having the numbers and letters confused. The thing about ayouasca

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Speaker 1: and psilocybin and LSD and antidepressants is that they all

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Speaker 1: work on the Saratonain kind of receptors. And most sites

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Speaker 1: and most practitioners will say, oh no, no, you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: do an s s R I and then do ayouasca

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Speaker 1: or psilocybin or l s D, and that's certainly kind

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Speaker 1: of the safe kind of sponsor. However, I've spoken to

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Speaker 1: like James Fadiman, who is kind of like the god

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Speaker 1: of all this. He's the original researcher. He really knows

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Speaker 1: his stuff here. And if you dig deeper, what you

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Speaker 1: find out is that psilocybin deals with a different subset

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Speaker 1: of your serotonin receptor than your antidepressant does so even

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Speaker 1: though most people would be like, no, no, you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be on antidepressants and take psilocybin in actual fact, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor, so don't follow this advice. I'm

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Speaker 1: a doctor, so but I'm just saying in my research

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Speaker 1: and my conversations with people who seem to be real,

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Speaker 1: real experts, not just you know, an article about this,

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Speaker 1: they say, technically speaking, psilocybin you can take with an antidepressant,

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Speaker 1: but you'll need more of it to have the same effect.

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Speaker 1: But with ayuasca, you know, it's again the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Just to kind of bring down their liability to the

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Speaker 1: lowest level possible, they say, no, you should have weaned

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Speaker 1: yourself off depressants, And I don't disagree with that, like,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you, like, that's the reason I

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Speaker 1: haven't taken ayuasca. But there's another reason why, which is

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Speaker 1: that you don't want to shoot your pants yea and

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Speaker 1: vomit in front of you. It sounds like a very

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Speaker 1: valid reason. I don't have to be there, I mean

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Speaker 1: I can, I will be filming it, obviously, but I

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Speaker 1: don't have to be in your phone, I mean, Instagram, television,

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Speaker 1: you know someone I know who's kind of a shaman.

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Speaker 1: I said, ayuask is like swimming the Atlantic Ocean, and

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Speaker 1: like people who do that before they've dipped their toe

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Speaker 1: and anything else. It's kind of major um, kind of

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Speaker 1: like a little hesitant. Yeah. No, it is a very

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Speaker 1: intense experience. But I did a lot of acid in

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Speaker 1: high school, so I was used to that. Did you

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Speaker 1: have you ever done acid? I think I've done acid

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Speaker 1: once in college. The last time I did psilocybin was,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my twenties. But you did try the

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Speaker 1: micro docing effect. I did micro doocing, yeah and stop.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not ruling out a psilocybin trip, but it

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Speaker 1: would need to be in a real therapeutic setting, like

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Speaker 1: I'd like to do it with like a therapist. And

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Speaker 1: that becomes a whole other hurdle because you have to

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Speaker 1: do this song and dance because it's not legal here.

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Speaker 1: There are places in the Netherlands though, where they will

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Speaker 1: do a proper therapeutic pilocybin. Yeah, you've only just what

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Speaker 1: taken in edible Brandon, Is that correct? Yeah, I've never

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Speaker 1: done anything like edelic and yeah, and I've seen you

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Speaker 1: on inedible and I would recommend as a doctor that

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Speaker 1: you don't take it any further. You tell me anytime

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Speaker 1: you're gonna take mushrooms at Brandon came out to you

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Speaker 1: on these, I don't what would be? What would you be?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. She seems to know that. I trust that.

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Speaker 1: I think he just gets so much out of an

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Speaker 1: edible there's no reason to go further, likely giggles. You know,

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Speaker 1: they are doing something new out of Colorado called psychedelic

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Speaker 1: cannabis trips, which is that they have certain specific hybrid

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Speaker 1: strains that they use, and they put headphones on a

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Speaker 1: little bit like what a therapeutic psilocybin or LSD trip

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Speaker 1: is supposed to do while they have a therapist there

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Speaker 1: and you have kind of a curated playlist or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and you do an integration before and after. But it's

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Speaker 1: called psychedelic cannabis therapy in Colorado. In Colorado, there are

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Speaker 1: a few practitioners here, so that's legal. We don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot about the m d M A micro do

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Speaker 1: sing right, do you know? I know very little about

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Speaker 1: But I do know that m d M A and

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Speaker 1: antidepressants definitely do not mix. That is where you can

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Speaker 1: get into trouble. Oh yeah, because m D m A

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Speaker 1: depletes your whole to serotonin, rushes serotonin into your brain

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Speaker 1: because that's like a way for days afterwards, your serotonin

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Speaker 1: level plunges. But the problem is the danger is during

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Speaker 1: the rush with your antidepressants, it can create something called

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Speaker 1: serotonin syndrome, which is basically an overdose of serotonin that's

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Speaker 1: life threatening. Okay, well that's good to know because for

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Speaker 1: regular people who aren't on antid de depressants, there's a

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Speaker 1: that day of the week. I think it's usually Tuesday

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Speaker 1: where you feel if you've taken an XSC on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: feeling great Sunday because it's still in your body, and

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Speaker 1: Monday you're like, WHOA, don't have a hangover, And then

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Speaker 1: Tuesday you want to kill yourself and I think they

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Speaker 1: call it to suicide Tuesday. We were just talking about

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Speaker 1: that the other night. So there is a definite depletion

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Speaker 1: and what you can do is take B twelve they say,

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Speaker 1: to just kind of balance that out. Um, but you

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Speaker 1: have to take it before, during, and after, so that

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Speaker 1: sometimes helps people. But BE twelve and fol Late can

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Speaker 1: help people with that because BE twelve and Foel late

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Speaker 1: are what your brain needs to create neurotransmitters like serotonin.

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Speaker 1: So taking a big dose to be twelve and folate

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Speaker 1: is definitely something I would do if I did that,

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Speaker 1: but I don't. I think a lot of people the

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Speaker 1: fear of that crash is what keeps them from doing

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Speaker 1: a things psychedelic because I know my freshman is offering

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Speaker 1: your college when all of my friends are out doing

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Speaker 1: ecstasy or anything psychedelic. Just the fear of not knowing

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Speaker 1: what that come down was going to be, Like, is

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Speaker 1: there a reason they wouldn't, But just show you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't get that same come down with psilocybin. You

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Speaker 1: don't come down. That's that's just because m d m

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Speaker 1: A works on the serotonin one receptor, which is the

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Speaker 1: same as your antidepressants, but for some reason, the depletion

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Speaker 1: of that is very suicide feeling, whereas the others are

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Speaker 1: dealing with a different serotonin receptor. Where you're you're not overwhelmed.

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Speaker 1: But also in terms of your depression, and you've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that have helped your mood. You've

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Speaker 1: lost a lot of weight, you stopped drinking for a

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Speaker 1: period of time, for a long period of time. So

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Speaker 1: as a depressive person, I mean, let's talk about that

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Speaker 1: a little bit, because when you're doing a lot, how

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Speaker 1: do you know which one is really hot? Because you

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Speaker 1: take supplements also, you take mood supplements. I mean, as

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Speaker 1: far as drinking goes, when a person is depressed, king

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Speaker 1: is like a wet blanket, right, Yeah, Drinking is kind

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Speaker 1: of a form of self medicating. The problem with with

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Speaker 1: it is that you self medicate, but then you're also

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Speaker 1: dealing with the effects of the medication. It's a little

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Speaker 1: bit like m d m A. So like, initially the

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Speaker 1: medication of alcohol feels really good, especially if you have

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Speaker 1: anxiety based depression, which I kind of do. And initially

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Speaker 1: it squelches your anxiety, so that feels really like relief.

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Speaker 1: But as you drink, you get rebound anxiety. So it

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Speaker 1: becomes kind of this vicious cycle where you're actually creating

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Speaker 1: anxiety and then putting it out and around five, you know,

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Speaker 1: for your cocktail, and so it's a little like eye drops.

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Speaker 1: You know, it gets the red out, but then the

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Speaker 1: red comes back stronger, you know. And also all alcohol

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Speaker 1: is technically a depressant. Now that's difficult to say because

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Speaker 1: when someone's feeling anxious. The feeling of alcohol is incredibly powerful.

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Speaker 1: It's very quick in terms of the way it gets

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Speaker 1: rid of anxiety. But as an experiment, Yeah, for me,

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00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: I found, like wow, when I stopped drinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: over the course of a week or something, I have

404
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Speaker 1: a different energy. I mean, first of all, like I

405
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: wake up super early, super clear. You feel your feelings

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Speaker 1: some more, definitely. So I'm not saying that you stop

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00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: drinking and suddenly you're you're happy. That's not it at all.

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00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: In fact, in some ways, you you become more sensitive

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Speaker 1: to your mood. So along with stopping drinking on kind

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Speaker 1: of a regular basis, I'll still drink on a special

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Speaker 1: occasion or something. But I looked into supplements and genetic

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Speaker 1: testing for depression. So I did that, and I found

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Speaker 1: that I have a variant in my in my DNA

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Speaker 1: that makes it difficult for me to get full late

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Speaker 1: and be twelve into my brain, which we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about, and be twelve and folate or absolutely necessary

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00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: to create serotonin, dopamine and all those newer transmitters. So

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Speaker 1: with the help of this psychiatrist, he put me on

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Speaker 1: like this Joseph supplements, But you're absolutely right. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I asked him, I said, how do I know which

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Speaker 1: of these like fifteen supplements you know, are doing what?

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Speaker 1: And is that the ketamine is it? That is it?

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Speaker 1: And he said it's synergistic. It's like each thing works

424
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: together and the whole is greater than the sum of

425
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: its parts. So you really kind of can answer the

426
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: question of what's doing what exactly right. Yeah, I think

427
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: that's how a lot of people feel about I guess

428
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter because if everything is feeling better

429
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: and you're thinking more clearly and you're sharp, like you

430
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: want to be in present and all of the things

431
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: that you care about, then who really cares what it is?

432
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: As long as you know. If it's a combination of things,

433
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: that's fine too. Okay, well, this sounds like a good

434
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: time to take a break. M You know, exercise helps

435
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: let's say ten percent. The supplements might help, the kenemine

436
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: might help twenty five, antidepressents help forty. You know, you're

437
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: kind of building using all those tools. So it's really

438
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: about finding your personal cocktail. Each person has to do

439
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: the work to find what's going to work for them. Yes,

440
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: and you can find good integrative psychiatrists sometimes who kind

441
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: of know shit, who know about like supplements and things

442
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: like that, like other functional ways to kind of add

443
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: to your Yes, It's like I wish I could tell

444
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: everybody how to go get these micro docing or how

445
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 1: to be part of a research study. But for instance,

446
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: I was in National, Tennessee shooting for my documentary and

447
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: one of these white rappers that I interviewed down there

448
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: had tons of mushrooms and just kept handing them out

449
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: to everybody. So it's like people are growing them, but

450
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: there's no real, like legitimate way to get them now,

451
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: so that's not helpful. But the kenemy therapy is available

452
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: to people, and I don't know how many states I know,

453
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: I think it's nationwide. It's legal because ketamine the big

454
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: barrier with ketamine as the price, I mean, ketamine itself

455
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: costs like nothing, but they charge like six hundred dollars

456
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: in infusion. Is totally inflated prices. So now is that

457
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: something that someone would go to their general care physician

458
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, I would like to get ketamine infusion.

459
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: So they have to seek out a psychiatrist. What is

460
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: the protocol? You can basically go online and see where

461
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: in your city they offer ketamine infusion. But as I said,

462
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: be careful because a lot of them are an acesiologists,

463
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they can't give it. Like the one

464
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: I go to now, the practice is run by an

465
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: m casiologist, But I really like the nurse practitioner who

466
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: gives the ketamine, and so that's important. But yeah, you

467
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: you can just look online and see where it's offered

468
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: in your city, but it's not something that a g

469
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: P would necessarily give. And ideally, if you can, yeah,

470
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: I would always pick a psychiatrist who offers it over

471
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: over any other doctor. Have you ever tried ketamine? I

472
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: mean that's something that gay boys do in the gay clubs.

473
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: Did you know that? Yeah, I've I've snorted ketamine before

474
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: when you were gay? Well no, but I was with

475
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: a gay guy and he said, do you want to

476
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 1: try this? And I was said, sure, why not? And

477
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: I snorted it and I don't, I don't know, I

478
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: just didn't. I just felt really relaxed. It wasn't anything

479
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: that I wanted to snort. Again. There are things that

480
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: I would like to try, like what you're already kind

481
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: of coked up? In general, Brandon, You're kind of very

482
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: detailed or definitely don't mix adder all with cocaine. Do

483
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: not do that ever. Never drug tips one oh one. Yeah,

484
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: you're welcome everybody for this episode of Who Do You

485
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: Think You Are? So these are different modalities that are

486
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: used for treating depression beyond antidepression medicine. And you've got

487
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: like ketamine. They're doing like heavy research on psilocybins. Psilocybin

488
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: is mushrooms. Psilocybin is mushrooms, magic mushrooms, right, okay, And

489
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: then a katamine people used to call as a it

490
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: was a horse tranquilizer. It was it was actually an

491
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: anesthetic that was used in the Vietnam War because it

492
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: had such immediate effects on Vietnamese horses, Vietnamese soldiers at

493
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: US soldiers in Vietnam, and then it became used for

494
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: and that practices, and like a lot of things that

495
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: were therapeutic, they kind of went, oh, there's abuse potential,

496
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: so you know, it was just you know, used mainly

497
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: by that's at that point in terms of like there's

498
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: definitely a movement now where people are talking about drugs

499
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: in the sense of helping themselves and helping their psyches

500
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: heal from past trauma. But you know, there was obviously

501
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: a lot long era of people just using drugs recreationally

502
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: too well. Actually, psychedelics were being researched for actual mental

503
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: health benefits. And you know that's a whole history. I

504
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: don't know that the ins and ouncer, but let's put

505
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: it this way, like, it's interesting that the government shut

506
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: that down and instead said, hey, let's create opioids that

507
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: people can be kind that are synthetic. Yes, because that's

508
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: supported by a drug company or the alcohol industry, which

509
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: we know alcohol is tremendously toxic WOA. But in other words,

510
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: that's toxic, whereas psychedelics do not have a toxic kind

511
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: of a top limit, like there's very little evidence of

512
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: any kind of great harm compared to alcohol, for example.

513
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: But yet alcohol is legal and psychedelics, including magic mushrooms,

514
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: are elite. It's kind of like, what you know, I

515
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if in the next like, um, several years,

516
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: if that doesn't change, because yeah, I think it's gonna

517
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: because it's moving so fast. This movement is kind of

518
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: happening with such alacrity that there is no stopping in

519
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: and then the government realizes, oh, this is a perfect

520
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: example of like grassroots you know what I mean, activism

521
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: actually working because people are saying, no, we need this

522
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: to help people, and the government is kind of just

523
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: having to agree with it. And that's the same with

524
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: cannabis legalization, but that's across the country. But that said,

525
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: psilocybin is an incredibly powerful drug, so it's not like

526
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: cannabis where I think psilocybin you have to be incredibly

527
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: careful about because it is so powerful. So you need

528
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: to make sure you're in a safe environment, that you're

529
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: you don't do that by yourself, and that there are

530
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: other people around you who can save you. Because the

531
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: problem with psychedelic drugs, really powerful psychedelics is God forbid

532
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: you you have a break where you kind of decide

533
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: you want to jump off a balcony because you think

534
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: you can fly. Do you read about that though, like people,

535
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: because I read about people having psychological breaks. I've read

536
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: about that with ayahuasca and peyote, but not mushrooms. Pearty

537
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: is similar to mushrooms. I think what they say is

538
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: if you have schizophrend, you know, kind of an undiagnosed

539
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: kind of potential for that, which usually reveals itself right

540
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: at later in life. Yeah. But but in other words,

541
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: a psychedelic can trigger that, which is why I like

542
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: from what I've read, I would never do a psychedelic

543
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: completely by myself, ever, I think that there you know,

544
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: you need an ideally, you need to be around somebody

545
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: who isn't necessarily flying as high as you are. I mean,

546
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: it's interesting when you say, though about taking something when

547
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: you're somebody's personality is heightened or whatever feeling you're feeling

548
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: after your infusion, your catamine infusion, because it's like that

549
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: story about me giving Chunk melatonin, but he was in

550
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: such a heightened state of anxiety that giving that to

551
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: him only kept him there, and which my vet told

552
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: me when I came back, Oh, when somebody's in a

553
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: heightened state of anxiety, any pill you take like that

554
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: is just going to keep your personality there, which made

555
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: no sense to me. Well, there's two things. First of all,

556
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: I have no idea how melotonein his processed and dogs well,

557
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: And second of all, here's the big issue, Like with

558
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: my dog. My dog weighs thirteen pounds and my mom

559
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: feeds it like it's a human being who weighs a

560
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: hundred forty and then like wonders why she's fat. It's

561
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: like the weight of the dog requires sectually smaller dose.

562
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: So chances are if you gave Chunk like a human

563
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: dose of melatonin, that's like an overdose. Yeah, but his

564
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: doctor was prescribing him human xanex. So what human zanex is? Okay,

565
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: but in a tiny dose? Oh okay, Well it was

566
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: working for me. His zanex was work for me. Brandon,

567
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: If you could take one psychedelic trip, what would it

568
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: be with? Probably mushrooms, right, I would like you to

569
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: do mushrooms at my house. I'll leave. I'll have my

570
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: belt video camera with our old vhs. What would you leave?

571
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: I think you should be there. I just don't want

572
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: to deal with the drama, you know what I mean,

573
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: Like if he gets all out of whack or something,

574
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: that's probably decisions Like I don't want to deal with that.

575
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: You know. It's like people who's like first time, Like

576
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: I was over my friend's house this weekend and somebody said,

577
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I've never smoked pot, And I said, well,

578
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: then don't. I don't want to be here for that.

579
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: I remember we were at a party and someone like,

580
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: should I do some pot? But last time I fell

581
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: asleep and you were like, yes, I don't do it,

582
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: like we don't want to have to carry you think

583
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: of other people when you're thinking about doing these things. Yeah,

584
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: and you're also somebody that doesn't respond to marijuana, to cannabis. No,

585
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: I don't like marijuana because why First of all, I

586
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: find like, you know, my brain works on a level

587
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: of precision, that's just the way my brain response. And

588
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: I don't like the kind of vagueness of never knowing

589
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: what the doses, really what the mood is. And then finally,

590
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: probably most importantly, I just don't like the way I

591
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: feel the next day. So you got a pot hangover? Yeah,

592
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: I feel it in my system the next day. And

593
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: is it from all cannabis so inedible joint? I mean,

594
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, we've had a few laughs, and the only

595
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: times where I've had positive experiences with cannabis have been

596
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: with Chelsea. But even that isn't consistent of and they're

597
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: not just so much fun that I kind of go,

598
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: it's worth the hangover and stuff. Yeah, I think you

599
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: remember you once saying you felt everything that you said

600
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: was so stupid. I remember, Yeah, there was that one

601
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: time where I felt like I was speaking and there's

602
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: part of me like judging myself speaking. God, that's dumb.

603
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: But that does happen. That can happen with cannabis, and

604
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: that's a matter of and I think the I think

605
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: the real thing to remind everybody about is when you

606
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: are having a drug experience, to set your attention and

607
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: even if it is recreational, to say I'm going to

608
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: be in a good mood, this is going to be

609
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: a fun experience. I'm not going to pick out if

610
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: that's your issue and it's my issue, so I have

611
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: to say that a lot to myself. But it is

612
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: about setting an attention, even and if it's in a

613
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: casual way. Yeah, but it's also I totally agree with you,

614
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: and I think it's also about like respecting your own

615
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: brain chemistry. Like I know people who will do cannabis

616
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: and it really relaxes them and makes them social and whatever.

617
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: My tendency with cannabis and like, I've had quite a

618
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: few experiences where it's made me paranoid and it hasn't

619
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: relaxed me. It's tensed me up and made me more anxious.

620
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: So I kind of just respect my own brain chemistry,

621
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, individual. Yeah, I mean the thing is, I

622
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't know that much about

623
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: their own brain chemistry. You know, they know about their moods,

624
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: but they're not as educated as you are about your brainstry. Yeah,

625
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: but I think again, because a lot of this stuff

626
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: is still, you know, new, even for scientists. I mean

627
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: only like psychedelics, they've been shut down for the last

628
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: what fifty years. It's only now that we're re researching them.

629
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: You can be aware of your own state of mind.

630
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: For a while, I was keeping, you know, a journal

631
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: where I literally would write down what what even I

632
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: had eaten, because I knew that even what I ate

633
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: could affect my mood suppart of it. You know, once

634
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: I decided to stop drinking, I just became very aware

635
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: of the tiniest differences of what ingesting different things could do.

636
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: And for me, as someone who suffers some depression, that

637
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: was empowering. Do you feel like you've had any depression

638
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: in the last six months? No, I haven't had I

639
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: haven't had clinical depression since I've been on antidepressants, but

640
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: I've definitely become happier since I took these additional steps,

641
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: because that's what the different to this. I feel like

642
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: now having known you for about three years, and when

643
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: you use the word manage, that's often the way you

644
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: hear people discuss their depression is that it's being managed,

645
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: but they're not any happier, and they should be that

646
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: they don't feel better, they just feel okay. Well, the thing,

647
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, But what I was gonna say is

648
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: you over the last year, I would say, seem happier,

649
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: Like this seems like an increase in your joy. I mean,

650
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that way. But I think you're you're

651
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 1: hitting on something that's really important, which also touches upon

652
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: what's the difference between depression and sadness. You know, sadness

653
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: is generally triggered by something, you know, an event situation,

654
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: where suppression is different depression, it's just a vague or

655
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: sense of like not wanting to do anything, a sadness

656
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: that kind of permeates everything and isn't necessarily event specific.

657
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: So an antidepressant manages to get you out of that hole,

658
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily get you kind of you know,

659
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: flying high and happy. It just has lifted you from

660
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: the whole, which is depression. I find some of these

661
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: other modalities actually lift you higher. For me, Okay, we're

662
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

663
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: You were saying, even just the inclination to want to

664
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: go out, to start to wonder what your friends are doing,

665
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: or want to be social is a sign that your

666
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: depression is lifting. You're absolutely right. One of the things

667
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: that I would say characterizes depression is a diminishment in desire,

668
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: so your desire. So it's like when you have no

669
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: sex drive applied back to the rest of your life exactly,

670
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: I don't have a desire to hang out with friends.

671
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: I don't have a desire to have sex. I don't

672
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: have a desire to go out to a cocktail party

673
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: or anything. And the deeper depression, the more squelch and

674
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 1: diminish your desire is for everything. So on one level,

675
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: you're getting out of that hole. And one of the ways,

676
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: like I have a friend who just started antidepressants like

677
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: a week ago, and she was I was like, are

678
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 1: you feeling them yet? She's like, no, I'm not really

679
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: feeling them, And then she went on to tell me

680
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: like she was feeling like a little bit sad that

681
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: she had isolated herself for a while and she missed

682
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: kind of her friends. I said, then it's working because

683
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: that's your desire coming back. You're actually the first the

684
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: first moments are you kind of going, oh my gosh,

685
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: I've isolated myself and I don't want to be isolated.

686
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: So that's the way people can kind of make sure

687
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: that they're dealing with depression. If if you're feeling your

688
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: desire to do everything is down, you should see a

689
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: medical professional. It's also helpful to have someone in your

690
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: life that is going through it because it gives me

691
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 1: a lot more understanding of depression since it's not something

692
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: Now you definitely don't suffer from it. I'm kind of

693
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 1: always in awe of your denial. Now you're anti depressed,

694
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 1: like whatever or in your whatever chemicals are in your brain.

695
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you are definitely functioning at a level of

696
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: anti depressive. What about you, Brendan, have you ever felt depressed?

697
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: Only one time? And I and when I got my period, Yes,

698
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: because you wanted the baby. Every time it was seasonal depression.

699
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: I would say it was just my last year in

700
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: South Dakota, and I just could not get myself. I

701
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: was still on his track scholarship, I wasn't going to practice.

702
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do anything. And so the way

703
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: you're describing your lack of desire, one of my favorite

704
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: things to do is eat. Like I didn't want to eat,

705
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do engage. I wanted to be alone.

706
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: And that was the only time I can remember now

707
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: looking back in retrospect, to me like that was depression,

708
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: Like that wasn't just a sad or a mood. That

709
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: was an inability to be happy. That's absolutely And what

710
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: do you think that was triggered by. I think there

711
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: were a lot of things, but I think it was

712
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: being in that state at that time with just the

713
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: doom and gloom, not being out of the closet yet

714
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: and knowing that that was that hurdle was about to

715
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: be jumped. But also seasonal as you're mentioning, like you know,

716
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: but not being out of the closet and knowing that's coming.

717
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: I think it was a culmination of things, but just

718
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: being in that season and a lot of people say

719
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: that though like you talk to people like I love Seattle.

720
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: I love the overcast and the gray, but people like

721
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: but living in it is different than experiencing it for

722
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: a week. It really can have an effect on your

723
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: mood and who you are well. Light therapy definitely helps

724
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: for people who have seasonal depression, you know, during winter months,

725
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: especially like you said, in in parts of the country

726
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: or the world where you don't see a lot of

727
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: sunlight that can definitely also trigger depression, and light therapy

728
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: works with that. You know, there are other things as well,

729
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: like there's magnetic therapy where they use super powerful magnets

730
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: has also shown some results. I think my philosophy is,

731
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: you know, research this stuff. You know that I love

732
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: researching stuff, which usually you just call me and I

733
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: don't have the patients to google ship, so whenever I

734
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: have a question, I just text Alec what's up with

735
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: and then I get a page JOSSI a back. Usually

736
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: just call and tell you what's actionable and whatever you've

737
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: asked me to research. But um, but yeah, there are

738
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: definitely things you can do. But I think awareness of

739
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: when you're depressed is one of the first. But to

740
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: be also compassionate and empathetic towards other people when you

741
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: don't suffer from depression because my instinct is it always

742
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: to get up and move on. You know, well, that's

743
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: one of the worst things people can say to someone

744
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 1: who's depressed is snap out of it, you know that,

745
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: or you should just go out more. You need to

746
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: put yourself in an environment where you're on happy people.

747
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: And it's like, you don't understand that's completely not within

748
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: the realm of possibility. So yeah, one of the things

749
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: about compassion and empathy is understanding that you know, they

750
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: can't snap out of it, and going out to a

751
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: group event isn't going to work either. I think what

752
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: you're saying works the most is creating new habits that

753
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: are helping and aiding your state of mind. So instead

754
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: of having bad habits, you know, we rehbituate ourselves, which

755
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: is much easier than any of us think, because you

756
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: really can, in like three to five days, just start

757
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: doing something every day and then it does become part

758
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: of your habit and then you're helping your brain and

759
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: you're on your own show. Right Like you know, if

760
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: you're drinking, try reducing your drinking. There's no harm in

761
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: trying to take a B twelve and foe late supplement.

762
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: There are supplements like metal Guard that you can get

763
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: on Amazon or anywhere, So there's no harm in kind

764
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: of trying to increase your B twelve and folate. There's

765
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: no harm in adding an A C which is another

766
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 1: supplement that can really help with negative O C D thinking.

767
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: In fact, psychiatrists are saying any C as a supplement

768
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: is having more powerful effects for O C D thinking

769
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: negative thinking than any prescription they have. So there are

770
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: these things you can do, and like you said, you know,

771
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: taking those little steps can help. Well. I think a

772
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: lot of the concerns for people as well are the

773
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: side effects. So are there, to your knowledge, side effects

774
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: associated with ketamine and antidepressants. Antidepressants definitely have side effects,

775
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: and I think that's one of the big reasons some

776
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: people want to avoid them, and it's also one of

777
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: the reasons why with antidepressants it can be so hit

778
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: or miss, like people sometimes need to try several antidepressants

779
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: before they find one that doesn't have the side effects

780
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: that make them want to stop it. Ketamine doesn't have

781
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 1: any specific lists of side effects. You can't drive right

782
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: afterwards because your sense of balance and whatever is really

783
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: thrown and during Yes, you cannot roller blade, which is

784
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: usually how I get to and from appointments. But I

785
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: think that with ketamine, you know, ketamine infusion is just

786
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: to be clear, you do go on a trip like

787
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: it's psychoactive. Well, you said, okay, the last time you

788
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: did it, you said you felt like you were in

789
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: a matrix right in some sort of underworld or underground.

790
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: I felt like it was giving me glimpses of the universe,

791
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: of of like a deeper understanding of the universe. And

792
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: while I was in it, I could understand it. And

793
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: as I was coming out of it, I knew that

794
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to describe it, like words were

795
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 1: not going to do it justice. And sure enough, as

796
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: I was returning back, I felt that ability to discuss

797
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: it went away. But you're aware of it, like weirdly

798
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: in ketamine, I'm aware that I'm on ketamine while I'm

799
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: going through this journey me and I choose to use

800
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: music while I do it, and that music can oftentimes

801
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: dictate where I'm going and what I'm experiencing. It's kind

802
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: of cool if you kind of are prepared for it

803
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: and you don't freak out by it. Brendan, you were

804
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: talking about ketamine as an anti pain thing for fibro mayalga.

805
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: That's it's also being used as that, but it's used

806
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 1: in much higher doses and for much longer so a

807
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: lot of times for fibro myalgia, you don't necessarily go

808
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: on what I call a trip. You're just kind of

809
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: out of it because they do sometimes give you tranquilizers

810
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: and anti nausea medicine for fibro mayalgia and ketamine, but

811
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: during depression treatment, oftentimes it's about the practitioner finding that

812
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: perfect dose for you so that you're not overwhelmed, but

813
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: you're definitely disassociating from your real life. It's kind of cool. Yeah,

814
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like I should do it. Don't

815
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: you think I should do There have been several times

816
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: where you've actually during my trip where I've gone, wow,

817
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: I wish Chelsea was Yeah, I think I should try it.

818
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: You want to try it with me, Brandon, We can

819
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: report back when we do our ayahuasca review with Dan

820
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: and Jenny or ayahuasca. I think you should definitely do it,

821
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: but again, I can't stress enough going to the right place.

822
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: I'll go with you to your place. We can go together. Yeah,

823
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: then we can stumble out of there together. I would

824
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: go up to speak to you after. Yeah. No, that's

825
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: funny that you say that because you texted me. You're like, oh,

826
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: I love you so much. I can't wait to tell

827
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: you all about this. And then you're like, please call

828
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: me right away, and I called you You're like, i'll

829
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: talk to you tomorrow. It's true that I kind of

830
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: like was like, oh my god, I have so much

831
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: to say. But yeah, then I was like, I think

832
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like hold it in. It's also kind

833
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: of bizarre what you're saying, because I mean, you know,

834
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: you're going like, yeah, I kind of feel like I

835
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: got a glimpse of the universe. I know it does

836
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: feel bizarre, but you know when you're saying, well, it does,

837
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: of course that feel stupid. But okay, so I've added

838
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: more stand updates. Everybody, you can come see me perform.

839
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: Let me think. At first, I want to say very

840
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: very heartfelt thank you too. Not Dr al kashi Chian

841
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: thank you. He's not a medical professional, and he's just

842
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: one of my very very friends who's pretty much the

843
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: smartest person I know. I'm coming to Brisbane. I'm coming

844
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: to Sydney. I'm coming to Melbourne, Auckland, New Zealand. I'm

845
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Speaker 1: coming to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, Vancouver, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Salt

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Speaker 1: Lake City, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, which is a place

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Speaker 1: I've never performed before, and Toronto show. We are adding

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Speaker 1: another show so you can come see me on My

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Speaker 1: Life will be the Death of Me Stand up Comedy

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Speaker 1: Tour Brandon. People want to know how they can get

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Speaker 1: a hold of you. They can't, but they can go

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Speaker 1: to your accountable page if they want to look up

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Speaker 1: any social issues or any organizations. I have a lot

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Speaker 1: of suggestions of ways you can get involved on my

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Speaker 1: accountable dot you page. And after that you should check

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Speaker 1: out Emily's List for any female candidates. Yes, Emily's List

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Speaker 1: is a great organization that I partnered with that help

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Speaker 1: elect progressive women for the Democratic Party. And the book

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Speaker 1: is called Life Will Be the Death of Me and

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Speaker 1: my name is Tracy Joy Handler. Goodnight, Life will Be

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Speaker 1: the Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows,