1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: I do feel of all of the stories I've written, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: this could be the most chilling in that it's the 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 2: first incidents that I've ever uncovered in which anybody could 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: have been the victim. You me, anybody who had a headache. 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Where Wicked 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: behind the stories. You might remember the case of Stella 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Nicol what a story. In the mid nineteen eighties. She 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: was suspected of murdering her husband using headache pills laced 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: with poison. But then it got so much worse because 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: those pills were being sold to the public and someone 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: else died. It created a panic that even I remember, 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: and I was only twelve years old. Author Greg Olsen 24 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: details the story in his book American Mother, The True 25 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: Story of a troubled family, Motherhood, and the Cyanide poisonings 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: that shook the World. Tell me about Stella from the beginning. 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: This is rural Washington State, Is that right? 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: Yes? Right? You know, Stella is one of those people 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: when you look at the trajectory of her life, you 30 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: can clearly see that she's on this path, which I 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: think most killers are. They're on the path very early. 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: It's not like you wake up one day, you know, 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 2: and you decide you're going to be a murderer or 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: going to kill somebody for profit or for whatever. She 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: was a girl who had a really tough upbringing. I mean, 36 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: she was in two house fires, badly burned. She was 37 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: beaten by her mother, she was pregnant at age thirteen 38 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 2: in a gang rape. I mean, all of the things 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: that you can imagine would be the worst things that 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: could happen to a girl or a child happened to her. 41 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 2: So even with all of that said, Kate. She had 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: a kind of plucky resilience in a way that sometimes 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: hardmitten people do. They kind of accept that they have 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: been given a bad lot in life, and they lived 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: that for a little bit until they can no more 46 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: do it. And that's what happened to hers. So young girl, 47 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: lots of tragedy, lots of problems, and of course that 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: morphs into an adult with bigger chances for bigger problems. 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: But she meets this man, Bruce Nickel. Can we talk 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about him and the dynamic of their relationship, right. 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it was her second marriage when she found 52 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: Bruce Nickel, who was a mechanic working for the state 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: of Washington, and before that he worked at the Boeing Company. 54 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: So he was an alcoholic who cleaned up, took the treatment, 55 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: and really like lived that life where she was more 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: of a faded party girl. She still wanted to hang 57 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: out at the bars, you know, throw jarts, drink a lot, 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 2: tease the other men, that kind of a thing. I mean, 59 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: she was that kind of a person. That was her 60 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: culture at that time. Bruce, you know, he didn't want 61 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: that anymore. He wanted more of a stable homebody kind 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: of situation and that wasn't going to be what she wanted, 63 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: and that's going to be really Bruce's undoing. 64 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: So is Bruce truly a victim here, who, as we 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: move forward, is not someone at fault in any way. 66 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I know you said they had a troubled relationship, 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: but there's nothing that could have been predicted that this 68 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: would happen except that Stella clearly is unstable for all 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: of her life, right. 70 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: I mean, Stella picked men in her life, by the 71 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: way that didn't abuse or beat her or harm her 72 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: in any way, and it really was the opposite. She 73 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: was always the ringleader in whatever situation that they got into. 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: So Bruce was a nice man. I mean when people say, oh, 75 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: sault to the earth, it sounds sort of corny, like 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: we can't you know, we're just using that phrase, but 77 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: that's really what he was. He was good. He wrote 78 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: his motorcycle, he worked outside and did physical things that helped, 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: you know, their property, worked his tail off at his job. 80 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: So he's all goodness. Stella, you know, is she's that 81 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: flip side and I think that in a way attracted him. 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: I Mean, she was fun and she was sexy and 83 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: She liked to, you know, play around and do a 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: lot of different things. And I think for Bruce being 85 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: kind of the homebody type, that was super attractive at first. 86 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: What about the introduction of a child into their relationship. 87 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: I know people think that that is helpful sometimes I 88 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: do not find children to be helpful Mary all the 89 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: time in our Drew crime stories. So what was her 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: re to being a mother? 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,119 Speaker 2: Right? So you know, Stella was a mother long before 92 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: she met Bruce. She had that first baby at age thirteen, 93 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: and she had another one shortly after that. So when 94 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: she met Bruce, she it was already made family. Although 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 2: Stella didn't raise her children, she left them with her 96 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: first husband, so Bruce didn't really get the benefit of 97 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: that closeness with a child, which I think it would 98 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: have been good at I think he would have enjoyed 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: that time. He certainly loved the other kids that were 100 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: in their trailer park neighborhood and was you know, helping 101 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: them with their bikes and stuff. He was a good guy, 102 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: but what he was handed was kind of a younger 103 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: version of Stello. When it came to be those older 104 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: children coming to visit or to live with her, the 105 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: primary one being Cynthia. She was a lot like her mother, 106 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: boisterous and really fun loving and maybe a little bit 107 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: out of control, and also very very smart. 108 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: So they are living a life where Bruce seems to 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: be someone who's a great provider and someone who would 110 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: love to have had his own children. But he's welcoming 111 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: of all these children as well as the other children 112 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. And Stella still feels like a party girl. 113 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: Are there any examples, I mean, she's going out really 114 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: late at night or is there infidelity that you know about, Yeah. 115 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: Of course there is. I mean Stella had a mattress 116 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: in the back of her pickup truck and she would 117 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: have guys, you know, in the bar come, you know, 118 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: hang out in the back of the truck. It was 119 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: like it was bold and ridiculous. I remember talking to 120 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 2: one of her boyfriends at the time when Bruce was 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: working in the oil fields in Alaska. He had taken 122 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: a job up there and Stella took a boyfriend. And 123 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: this guy told me, he says that we were on 124 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: the phone one time when we were in bed and 125 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: was talking to Bruce while we were having sex. And 126 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: when you hear that, you think wow. I mean, there's 127 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 2: no boundaries there right now. 128 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: So when do things go from being she is not 129 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: the best wife in the world to really taking a turn. 130 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: Is there some sort of a trigger that happens in Stella? 131 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean their money troubles start to pile up, 132 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: and her dissatisfaction with her lot in life. I mean, 133 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: she had this idea that she could reinvent herself, maybe 134 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: open up a tropical fish start because she loved tropical fish. 135 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: That was a thing for her. She'd also loved ceramics, 136 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: so she thought, maybe I could reinvent myself in a 137 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: new life and run a ceramics shop. So she had 138 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: dreams of more than what she was doing there living 139 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: in the trailer with her husband. As good as he was, 140 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: it was boring to her. So that's when she started 141 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: thinking of ways to get out of her marriage and 142 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: ways to get money. 143 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: Would Bruce have supported any of these business ventures. 144 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: I think Bruce would have done anything for her. He 145 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: loved her, He absolutely loved her. And that's kind of 146 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: like the tragedy of the whole thing, because she's a 147 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: woman who's incapable of loving anybody, including her own children, 148 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: and certainly not her husband. She really is that narcissistic 149 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: personality that only cares about herself. That's not me, Just 150 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: like trying to paint a picture for a reader or 151 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: somebody to understand who she is. That is the freaking truth. 152 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: All she cared about was Stella. 153 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: So in June of nineteen eighty six, she decides to 154 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: hatch a plan. What do we know about the planning 155 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: beforehand of all of this. 156 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: Here's the thing with it, Kate. She was thinking of 157 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: all sorts of ways that she could get rid of 158 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: her husband and collect on life insurance. That was her 159 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: big scheme. So she talked to her daughter, she talked 160 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: to other people, kind of vaguely at first, and then 161 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: more I guess more directly about maybe she could hire 162 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: a hitman to kill him, or perhaps he could get 163 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: run over in traffic. She thought of different ways, and 164 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: she kind of thought, well, what poisoning. Poisoning might work. 165 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: She went so far as even putting talk succeeds from 166 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: the foxglove plant into his iced tea. She mixed that 167 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 2: in there, thinking that that might kill him, because she 168 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: had read somewhere that that plant, which was grown on 169 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: their property, would be deadly to somebody. She tried that out. 170 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: It just made him kind of lethargic. It didn't really 171 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: do anything. But then she had another idea. She had 172 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: an idea. You know, she looked to history and she 173 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: looked at what had happened in Chicago with the Tile 174 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: in all poisonings, and she thought, Okay, that person killed 175 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 2: all those people and was never caught. There's a kind 176 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: of a wicked simplicity to this whole thing, is like, 177 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: you killed the person you want to kill, but you 178 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: also put the product out there. If it's tainted aspirin 179 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: or a headache medicine or whatever, out on store shelves, 180 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: you're going to kill somebody else. But it's going to hide. 181 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: It's going to mask the identity of who that killer 182 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 2: is because no one's going to know. They're going to 183 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: think it's random. 184 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: Will you give us the cliff notes version of what 185 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: happened with the tile and all I remember, But what's 186 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: the summary of what happened with that case in Chicago? 187 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, that is still an unsolved case. We 188 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: don't know who the perpetrator is, although the FBI believes 189 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: that it is somebody tied to one of the victims, 190 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: and there were seven people took Thailand. All it was 191 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: in capsule form, and inside those capsules some of them 192 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: had been tainted with cyanide. I mean, this was before 193 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: the whole idea of any kind of terrorism, you know, 194 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: where we could be randomly hurt. There's talk about all 195 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: of that now, like could someone poison our water supply? 196 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: You know, all of that stuff we hear, right, But 197 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: back then, you know, you go to the grocery store 198 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: and you have a headache, you buy a bottle of etc. 199 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: Or thil and all, and you take it. You don't 200 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: even think that anybody would want to hurt you. But 201 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: in that case, seven people died and whoever did it 202 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: got away with it. And Stella had read articles about 203 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: that and she thought, Okay, it worked once, I bet 204 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: it could work again. That was her thinking. 205 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Is it that easy to get a hold of cyanide 206 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six? 207 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: Very easy? And in fact, all you had to do 208 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: was show a driver's license in some states and others 209 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: you didn't have to. You could go to a farm 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: supply store, say it was for ants who were trying 211 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: to eradicate or gophers or whatever. Now it's much tougher 212 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: to buy. But you know, people could get their hands 213 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: on anything they want to get through different ways. 214 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: So she says, how am I going to use the 215 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: cyanide to kill him? And what does she physically do 216 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: to make this a weapon? 217 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: She buys a bunch of et cetera capsules, you know, 218 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: from different stores, and she takes them home, opens up 219 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: the capsules, empties out the headache medicine in them, and 220 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: she grinds up. Because cyanide is gritty, a little bit gritty, 221 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: she grinds it up and stuffs that back into those 222 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 2: capsules and then just twists the top clothes and puts 223 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: it back on the shelves. And here's the thing about it. 224 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: People say, well, gosh, I can't even open those caps 225 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: they're so hard to get, you know. Or what about 226 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 2: all that shrink wrap and all of that stuff. None 227 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: of that existed back in those days. People could buy 228 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: anything and stick anything in it. In fact, Stella told 229 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: her friend, she said, I'm not even worried about shoplifting, really, 230 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: because when I come to put those bottles back in 231 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: the store, nobody's going to think a thing of it, 232 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: because I'm adding something to the store. I'm not taking 233 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: something away. 234 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: So her plan is to take all of these bottles. 235 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: How many bottles did she five? Five bottles and alter 236 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: all of the capsules or just a few capsules in 237 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: each bottle, just a few, then returning him to the store. 238 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: And then what happens She asks Bruce to go buy 239 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: her a bottle or. 240 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: No, here's what really happened. She killed him first, she 241 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: gave him the pills. He took them, and you know, 242 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,479 Speaker 2: cy and my death is very quick. It's really suffocation 243 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: at this cellular level. It's really it's brutal, it's painful, 244 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: and it's something no one would ever want to go through. 245 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: But she fed it to him and then she called 246 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: nine one one and they came and got him. And 247 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: she even made a big scene in front of the police, saying, 248 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, I gave him these pills right before he 249 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: fell to the ground. Kind of highlighted that maybe it 250 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: was a poisoning. But nobody was thinking about that, you know, 251 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: they thought it was just a grieving woman whose husband 252 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: had just flopped on to the floor. And here's what happened. 253 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: He died and for a week, there's nothing. She keeps saying, 254 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: you better check because I think my husband, you know, 255 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: he was not ill, you know, and they said, well, 256 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,599 Speaker 2: he had m pisma and that's what killed him. And 257 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: anybody who knows em phisma, it's a slower death. It's 258 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: not an overnight thing. So then she decides, Okay, I 259 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: got to get this thing going. I'm going to put 260 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 2: some more on the shelves. So she put three more 261 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: bottles on the grocery store shelves. And a woman named 262 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: Sue Snow, the mother of two, a bank manager, unwittingly 263 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: was one of those people who purchased a bottle of etc. 264 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: Took it and died immediately. And when her death happened, 265 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: they smelled what that weird smell is that cyanide emits almonds? Yeah, 266 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: it's the bitter almonds. Very few people even smell it. 267 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,359 Speaker 2: And they were lucky that one of the people assisting, 268 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: you know, in the autopsy about that whiff. And as 269 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 2: soon as that happened, you know, Stella started calling and saying, 270 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: my husband had the same pills. 271 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: Okay, if they are saying no, it's emphysema, why would 272 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: she just not go Okay, you're probably right. 273 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,479 Speaker 2: Well, it's it's really obvious I mean death by poisoning 274 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: or murder is considered accidental death. And she had that 275 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: double indemnity clause on that thing, and she was going to, 276 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: you know, get every penny was two hundred thousand dollars 277 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 2: instead of around seventy five thousand, was well she was 278 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: going to get. She could have gotten away with it, 279 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: you know, she would have gotten maybe enough money for 280 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: her fish store or her ceramics shop back in those 281 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: days to start one. But it wasn't enough. I mean, 282 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 2: she was willing to really risk everything to get everything 283 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: she thought was coming to her. But you're right, she'd 284 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: gotten away with it, and if she kept her mouth shut, 285 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: we wouldn't be talking about her case right now. 286 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Okay, double indemnity. Wow, So one hundred thousand and two 287 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: about two hundred thousand for accidental yes, Okay, let's pause 288 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: a second and move over to the second victim. So 289 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: Bruce Nichols gone. Stella is saying, you need to look 290 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: into this. He took these mysterious pills in the meantime, 291 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: sus snow who doesn't know the other victim? 292 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: Right? 293 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: Does she know the Nichols at all? 294 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: No, that's the part that is so chilling. There's no 295 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: connection with these victims. There's nothing to relate. Why did 296 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: he get the pills and why did she get them? 297 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: And they looked at that for a long time because 298 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: they wondered, like, did Bruce SnO Sue? They even wondered, 299 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: was there if enough air between Bruce Nickel and Sue 300 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: snow something, you know, to tie them together? And of 301 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: course there isn't anything, because it's purely a random act. 302 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: She just went there, the unlucky person to buy those pills. 303 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: Tell me about Sue. I know she has a fifteen 304 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: year old daughter at the time of her death. Can 305 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: you give me a little bit of information about what 306 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: she was like and then what happens to her when 307 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: she arrives home with this bottle of et cetera. 308 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: The thing about Sue is, you know, this is kind 309 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 2: of a pitfall of true crime writing where people say 310 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: were writer's office. Oh, she was such a lovely person, 311 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: so much fun and kind and smart, and then it 312 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: always sounds like it's fake, right, but really she was 313 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: all those things. She had a twin sister, Sarah, she 314 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: had two daughters. She was on her second marriage to 315 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: a man named Paul, Webbking at the time, and things 316 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: were kind of good. They'd have their little problems, so 317 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: you know, they were kind of back together in a 318 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: way that they hadn't been, and then this comes along. 319 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: You know, she buys those pills and you know, the 320 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: minute she dies, everybody kind of wonders, well, did Paul 321 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: have something to do with it? Sarah the twins said 322 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: so out loud. Hayley, who was the fifteen year old daughter, 323 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: she wondered too. There were so many questions about who 324 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: did what and why Sue was dead. None of them 325 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: related to Stella nicol because we didn't know about stella. 326 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: So imagine a house, a turmoil going on within a 327 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: home where your loved one just died. The police are 328 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: there and everybody is wondering, Kate, who killed her and why? 329 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: And could it be him? 330 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: What is the time span between the time that Bruce 331 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: dies and the time that Sue dies? 332 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: I think about nine days? 333 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: So when is there an autopsy on both of these people? 334 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: And they find out it sinide and the panic begins 335 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: and the connection is made to the drug store or 336 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: the store. 337 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: What happens after that woman smells the bitter almonds and 338 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: they know now Bruce is a sinid death. It doesn't 339 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: take them, you know, two seconds to determine that. When 340 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: Sue Snow comes in and presents like a cinanide victim, 341 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: that they know it's her, that she had died in 342 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: the same way. So the connection was made right away 343 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: when Sue's body was brought in. And then they did 344 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: the examination of the contents of the bottles in her 345 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: home and in Stella's home, and they found two bottles 346 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: Stella had that were tainted, and they also found a 347 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: bottle in Sue Snow's house that were tainted with et 348 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: cetera poisoning. 349 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: And both Stella and Sue's family are asked, where did 350 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: you get these bottles? 351 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: Stella says she went to three different stores or two 352 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: different stores at two different times, which is kind of 353 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: was her undoing later in that, like, how could she 354 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 2: be so unlucky to buy two bottles of these? You know, 355 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: there's only five total, and she bought two that were poisoned, 356 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: and Sue's were in another part of town, so they 357 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: weren't all the same store at the same time. 358 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: Is there panic locally where they start clearing the shelves 359 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: of all of these bottles of all aspirin, not just etcetera. 360 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: There was I mean I lived here during all of 361 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: that time when that was happening, and it was huge news, 362 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: I mean a total recall of etc. And then later 363 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: Anison three because that was one of the bottles was 364 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: an Anison three bottle. We were all told to get 365 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: rid of your you know, etc. If you had any, 366 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: get rid of it, take it to the police station, 367 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: or even throw it away. It was fine. If you 368 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 2: had that particular lot number, you were told to present 369 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: it to the police or call it nine to one 370 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: one and have them come get it. But it was panic, 371 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: and it was that whole dynamic of thinking, well, you 372 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: know what happened in Chicago, now has happened here in Seattle. 373 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: You know what are we coming to because something so 374 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: safe as buying something at the grocery store could now 375 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: be used to kill you. 376 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: So is Paul Sue's husband under suspicion by the police, 377 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: other than his children or the kids who say I don't. 378 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: Know, No, Paul knew he was under suspicion, and he 379 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: took a polygraph to prove that he had nothing to 380 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: do with it. But he did act in strange ways 381 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: that made, you know, the family members thinking maybe he 382 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: did do it because he said, you know, I bought 383 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: that bottle, or they're going to find out that I 384 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: have some of those pills in my car. You know, 385 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: let's go get the pills out of my car. Things 386 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: that made it seem like, well, what is he covering up? 387 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: But he really wasn't. He was like any innocent person 388 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 2: when you're confronted with something and the worst possible thing 389 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: is happening, and you're thinking, well, I know I didn't 390 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: do it, but they're acting like I did. What do 391 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 2: I need to get rid of you know what I mean? 392 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 2: That has nothing to do with the crime, but you're 393 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: still terrified. I mean, it's a big deal to have 394 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: the FBI right in your face saying why did you 395 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: kill your wife? 396 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: Did he have life insurance on? Sue? 397 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, he did, and they've had it on each other, 398 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: most married couples do. When you say you know you 399 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: have life insurance on, it's like suddenly that's becomes really 400 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: dark and scary, when in fact, well, if you asked 401 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: me the day before have said sure, and it would 402 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 2: have been I wouldn't have felt anything bad about it. 403 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: Now you would have felt like you were being a 404 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: responsible spouse and parent. 405 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: That's right. 406 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: So the police are more suspicious of Sue or Paul 407 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: or random stranger who's targeting anybody who buys, etc. 408 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: They focus mostly on Stella after they exonerate Paul through 409 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: that polygraph. The reason they do that because Stella keeps 410 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: refusing to take one. They keep asking her to take 411 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: a polly and she doesn't want to do it. She 412 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: said it would be like reliving Bruce's death again into upsetting, 413 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: and she keeps, you know, not following up when they 414 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: ask her to. So they're thinking about that. They're thinking, 415 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: why is she doing that? Why isn't she helping find 416 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: out who killed her husband? And on the other hand, 417 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 2: she's also making phone calls to Washington State, which held 418 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: the insurance policy on Bruce, and she's calling him almost 419 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: every day saying he died of cyanide poisoning. I need 420 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: my money. It's been proven. So she was calling frequently 421 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: and the women there, you know, the insurance office, we're thinking, 422 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: this is kind of weird. Her husband died and yeah, 423 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: we know that because of his death has been changed 424 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 2: from emphasema to this poisoning, but Stella's affect is strange 425 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: to them. She's not upset about Bruce. She's upset that 426 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: she hasn't gotten her money yet. 427 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: And isn't it interesting that she's acted like that? That 428 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: what we would consider to be suspicious behavior to somebody 429 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: who is narcissistic or who has hypopathy or something can 430 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: not recognize that. I often talk to a forensic psychologist 431 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: who says that they often foul their own nests. Yeah, 432 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, they can't help it, and so you would 433 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: think that she would tailor her behavior a little bit 434 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: more to be the grieving widow who is just someone 435 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: who is, you know, collateral damage in all of this, 436 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: but apparently not. 437 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, you make a good point. We think sometimes that 438 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: these people who do crimes like what Stella had done, 439 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: they're a mastermind. Yeah, they're so clever and they are, 440 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: you know what, a cold calculating person to do that. 441 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: In reality, they're just dumb too. I really find it 442 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: fascinating when people say, oh, that woman was so cold 443 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 2: and conniving, you know, and devious, and it's like, really, 444 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 2: she was just kind of lucky for a while if 445 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 2: that was their plan. 446 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: I've written about plenty of very very intelligent, book smart 447 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: killers who were not good criminals for various reasons, and 448 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: they couldn't get out of their own way, and it 449 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: sounds like Stella was doing a little bit of that. 450 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: So the police are homing in on her because she's 451 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: acting suspicious and the insurance company is saying she is 452 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: hounding us and doesn't sound like a woman who is 453 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: trying to prepare to bury her husband. What is the 454 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: next step for the police, what is their due diligence 455 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: in this investigation? They start clearing the shelves, obviously. 456 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 2: So your listeners know, this is a federal case. This 457 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: is a product tampering and it involves the FBI. Well, 458 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: the local police certainly did their part in the investigation. 459 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: It was really in an FBI case. The key to 460 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: the whole thing was they were looking at the contents 461 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: of those pills and examining those in the labs in Washington, 462 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 2: taking a look, and they were seeing some anomalies in there. 463 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: They saw these little green specs and that wasn't something 464 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: that was INSIDEID. It wasn't an et cetera or Annison three, 465 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: And they determined that it was an algaecide they were 466 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: looking and thinking, Okay, what is this doing in there? 467 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 2: That was a key They were like, how does that work? 468 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: And at the same time they're talking to different people 469 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: who knew Stella, friends of course and family, really working 470 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: that case. And one of their key contacts, of course, 471 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 2: is Cindy, Stella's daughter, who is you know, in her twenties. 472 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: She is, you know, a kind of a younger version 473 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 2: of Stella. When I say that, it's like tough and smart, 474 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: street smart. They're talking to her and they're saying, well, 475 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 2: we think your mom did this, your mom did this, 476 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: and she saying, no, she didn't, she didn't. And so 477 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: they're really working her and the same time they're doing 478 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: the forensics on the contents of the pills. That's really 479 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: what the case is all about. What's the green speck, 480 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: where did it come from? And how do we tie that, 481 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 2: you know, to the killer? 482 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: What is algaecide? What is that? 483 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: Okay? An algaecide is it's like a chemical poison that 484 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: you used to kill algae in your aquarium. Oh and 485 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: Stella was a tropical fish fancer. She had two aquariums 486 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: in her house, you know, and she was thinking of 487 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: that was kind of her dream. She was going to 488 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 2: open a big tropical fish store. So she has that product. 489 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 2: And how they determined she has that product is an 490 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: FBI agent who interviews her at home when it gets 491 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: word of the algaecide being inside those capsules, and they 492 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: determine it's an aquarium product called Algae Destroyer. He says 493 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 2: she had two tanks. So that's the first inkling that 494 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: maybe they can tie Stella to the poisoning. They're already 495 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: thinking it's probably going to be her by her behavior 496 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: and what people are saying about her, her not going 497 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: to the polygraph, so that's kind of what they focus 498 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: on at that point. 499 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: So they think that there's a product in her house 500 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: that somehow an intentionally ended up in these capsules. I'm 501 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: assuming it's when she's doing her little surgery or whatever 502 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: on the capsules and putting the cyanide in. She's got 503 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: this stuff on her hands or on the table. 504 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: What they think she did was she used a bowl, 505 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 2: a plastic bowl or something like that to smash up 506 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: the cyanide, and it was a bowl that she had 507 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: used to dilute and to sort of liquefy the algae 508 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: destroyer tablets. They were a tablet, and sometimes when that 509 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: algae destroyer, like a little green pill you drop in 510 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: your aquarium, sometimes it just sits there for a while 511 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: and doesn't really break down to do its work. And 512 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,239 Speaker 2: they're interviewing people at the fish store that she used 513 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: to frequent and one of the guys says, I know 514 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: that customer. In fact, I told her that it's easier 515 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: to take that tablet and put it in a bowl 516 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: and mash it down before you put it in your aquarium, 517 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: because then it will dissolve readily and it will do 518 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: its job of killing all that green gunk you know 519 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: that's on the glass. So that's what they think happened. 520 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: They think Stella did that with the bowl and then 521 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 2: use the same bowl with the cyanide, inadvertently mixing things up. 522 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: It's to the naked eye. You see the green specs. 523 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 2: I've seen pictures of it. It's there. But she didn't 524 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: think it was going to be anything that would get 525 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: her in trouble. 526 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: But being a defense attorney, wouldn't you say? Lots of 527 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: people have aquariums and lots of people have used this, 528 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: and I know it's a weird coincidence. But it is 529 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: not like ballistics and a gun where you can prove 530 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: this definitively came from her. Is that sort of what 531 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: police are also saying is well, this is a little 532 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: tiny piece in a circumstantial case, but we need more. 533 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: You totally nailed it. It is one piece, it's a 534 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: big piece. But you also have the fact that they 535 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: determined that she had forged the signatures on the insurance policies, 536 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: that she was writing checks under Bruce's name, you know, 537 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: and very much trying to forge a signature. She was 538 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: really trying hard to make it look like Bruce was 539 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: agreeing with all the stuff she was doing her phone 540 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 2: calls to try to get the money. That's another piece. 541 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: The most damning piece, though, came from her daughter. And 542 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: her daughter, Cindy finally came to the FBI with a story. 543 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 2: And as anybody in the legal profession knows, or anybody 544 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: who sat in the courtroom, it's all about the story, right, 545 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: All of those things that are pieces of evidence, that 546 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: connective tissue of what she was thinking and doing and 547 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: saying that's the part that brings somebody, you know, from 548 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: the defense table back to prison or whatever. It's the 549 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: story and Cindy had the story. 550 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: She goes to the FBI and says, what what happened 551 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: between her and Bruce that Stella decided to do this. 552 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: She goes to the FBI and she finally says, you know, 553 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 2: first she says, my mom couldn't possibly have done it, 554 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: and she would never hurt anyone. She loved Bruce, blah 555 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: blah blah. And then later as more of the evidence 556 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 2: is presented to Cindy, the algae destroyer that had tainted 557 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: some of that poison, the forgeries, all those things, the 558 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: fact that her mother had been checking out books from 559 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: the library about cyanide and about poison plants, you know, 560 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: and her fingerprints were all over this. There was more 561 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: and more evidence coming, right, They needed that narrative, and 562 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 2: they got Cindy to say it. And Cindy said, my 563 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: mom was going to kill my dad by hiring a 564 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 2: hit man. My mom was going to do this, My 565 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: mom was going to do that. All that whole list 566 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: of the idea Stella had presented, she presented them to 567 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: her daughter, and her daughter finally said, oh, this is 568 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 2: a story. This is what happened. 569 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: The FBI must have just been flabbergasted by all of that. 570 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: I think the FBI knew all along that the key 571 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: to the case was going to be the daughter or 572 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: going to be some of those trailer park friends that 573 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: Stella had that would crack, that would finally, you know, 574 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 2: say what they knew to be true. They knew Stella 575 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: was scheming and doing all that stuff, but they needed 576 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: other people to really say it and what they did, 577 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: which a lot of people had. There was controversy about 578 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: it was there was a big reward offered, A two 579 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars reward was offered for in 580 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: leading to the arrest and conviction of Stella Nickel, and 581 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: a lot of people came forward to collect and Cindy 582 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: was one of them. 583 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: How many people do you think knew that she was 584 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: scheming to kill her husband, really knew and took it 585 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: seriously and didn't say anything. 586 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really hard to say, but I say, like 587 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: probably half a dozen people. This is what's weird about it. 588 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: It's like you can listen to somebody and they say, oh, 589 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: I think he was just or she was just blowing 590 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: off steam. You know, when someone says I could kill him, 591 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: or you know, you know what I mean. There's a 592 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 2: lot of people who say that kind of stuff. So 593 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: when you look back with hindsight, you think, oh, was 594 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: that really a message that she was going to actually 595 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: do it, or was she blowing off steam or whatever. 596 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: It's hard for us to know. But I think when 597 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: you look at somebody who's taking that concrete plan that 598 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: step in trying to you know, like what time does 599 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: he get off work, you know, so that he could 600 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: go be hit by the car when they're doing specifics 601 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: like that, then you got to take it seriously and 602 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: you got to raise your hand and say something about it. 603 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: But I think it's really hard for us, all of us, 604 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: to think that some somebody would do the unthinkable. 605 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: Especially to her husband. How much responsibility slash blame do 606 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: you put on Cindy's shoulders. She's in her twenties, she's 607 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: not a teenager. She's in her twenties. She knows about this, 608 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: her mother. It sounds like it is bouncing ideas off 609 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: of her. At what point we know that Cindy is 610 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: a victim of her mother's narcissism? I'm sure, But at 611 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: what point do we say I cannot believe that this 612 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: person is then going to collect money for turning over information. 613 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: You know, Kate, I had a harsh view of Cindy 614 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: when I wrote the book. I kept thinking, maybe Cindy 615 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: did it, maybe she and Stella did it together. You know, 616 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: there was some overlap there. But I've come to think, 617 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: you know, I've talked to Cindy since the book came out, 618 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: and I feel that, like I'm a pretty good judge 619 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: of character. I think all the things she said about 620 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: her being abused and all of that and have a 621 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: narcissistic mother, I think those are true factors in what happened. 622 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: I think also there's this idea that she really didn't 623 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 2: want to believe it was true. Also, it's like your mom, 624 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: it's really hard to go against your mother. She could 625 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: be the worst person in the world, and god knows, 626 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: there are a ton of stories that keep me writing 627 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 2: books about the worst mothers in the world. They're out 628 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: there and people always wonder, like, why didn't that kid 629 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 2: break earlier? Why didn't the husband you know, divorce her? 630 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: And it's like, it's very hard. It's hard to break 631 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: away from something that's wrapped around your neck. It's choking 632 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: you barely letting you breathe, But you want to give 633 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: that mom a second chance? 634 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: Is there a chance that Stella would have gotten away 635 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: with this had Cindy not gone to the FBI? This 636 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: seems like a preponderance of evidence against her. 637 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, one percent. I think Cindy was the reason that 638 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 2: Stella got convicted. I have no doubt about that. I 639 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: think Stella even the forgery. You know, she could say, well, 640 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: I signed for my husband all the time, you know, 641 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: because he was away. That could be explained. She said 642 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: that she researched poison plants and cyanide because she had 643 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: a granddaughter and she didn't want the granddaughter to eat 644 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: a toxic plant or whatever. I mean, there were excuses. 645 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: Now they seem silly and ridiculous and feeble even, you know. 646 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: But all it takes is one person to believe her. 647 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: And no proof that she bought the Sinai And did 648 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: you say that that they couldn't trace it? Now, what 649 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: is the reaction to this whole story from Haley, who 650 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: is Sue Snow's fifteen year old daughter, who we didn't 651 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: even really get to talk about this, had to say 652 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: goodbye to her mother before her mother died. I mean, 653 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: how horrific. And now she finds out why her mother died, 654 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: which was some arbitrary purchase at a store. 655 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've known Haley for many, many years. 656 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: She's a mom now and she in fact, Stella was 657 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: up for Pearl and Haley was there online, you know, 658 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: the way they do it. Now. Stella has been a 659 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: part of her life in a very bad way for 660 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: thirty some years. Right, But Haley is you know, she's 661 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: that opposite kind of person from people like Stella who 662 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: do based on tragedy that has been done to them, 663 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: whether it's abuse or in Haley's case, for you know, 664 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: her mother was murdered and she basically had to, you know, 665 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: start over with her whole life without her mom, this 666 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: beloved mother of hers, her best friend. And she turned 667 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: out great, she's great. But she's got this thing called 668 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: Stella Nicol that is a part of her story until 669 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: the day she dies. And I think that's really unfortunately, 670 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: really sad. 671 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 1: What about Paul who was also affected. He lost his 672 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: wife even though they had a difficult marriage at times. 673 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: He's accused and doesn't even have a chance to grieve. 674 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: And now I haven't seen Paul in many years. But 675 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: I mean when I was interviewing him, you know, he 676 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: had remarried and we had a new life going, so 677 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: he rebounded that way. But again, that whole thing like 678 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: if somebody accused you of some kind of abuse or 679 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: murder or whatever and you were innocent, I think that's 680 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: sort of a stain that stays with you even though 681 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: they say you're not. I mean, you google his name 682 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: and you might just read the part where he was accused. 683 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: You don't go to the whole end of it that 684 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: says you know that he didn't do it. He was exonerated, 685 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: he took a polygraph, and he passed, and of course 686 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: he was never even close to being the killer. But 687 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: I think that's kind of like, I don't know, the 688 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: fallout of a lot of crimes is that, you know, 689 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 2: when they're trying to figure out who did it, there's 690 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 2: collateral damage about all those people that are around the crime. 691 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 2: They kind of they get a piece of it, and 692 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: they get it for the rest of their life. 693 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: What about the rest of Stella's children? Do we have 694 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: any idea how any of them turned out after all 695 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: of this, Because this happened in eighty six, so this 696 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: case is thirty seven, thirty eight years old. 697 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the youngest daughter died a few years ago, Leah. 698 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 2: Cindy hadn't talked to her ever when I wrote the book, 699 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: but I did hear for her a couple of years ago, 700 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: and we, you know, talked on the phone and we 701 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: traded the text messages and all that. Cindy's had a 702 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: hard life too, but she's got a great sense of 703 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 2: Humor's she's sounds like Stella to me on the phone. 704 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 2: You know, when I met Stella, there's definitely lead that 705 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,959 Speaker 2: family resemblance and that in her look too. She told 706 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 2: me one thing I thought was interesting. I said, you know, 707 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: do you regret what you did? You know? And she 708 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 2: said no. She said, in fact, though Sue Snow hadn't 709 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: been killed, I never would have turned in my mother. 710 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: If she had just kept murdering the family, I would 711 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: have just kept my mouth shut. But she killed somebody 712 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: for no reason or whatever, and I couldn't live with that. 713 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? Okay, the idea that 714 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 2: if it's your stepfather, you know, and my mom did it. 715 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: But I'm going to stay with my mom. But since 716 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: she brought a stranger into the mix, I'm going to 717 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: tell out on my mom. I find that kind of interesting. 718 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: This is no comment really on Cindy, but I've mentioned 719 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: this on the show a couple of times that when 720 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: I say to a forensic psychologist I took about like 721 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: why different serial killers make decisions, and they say, well, 722 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: you know, they have their own set of morals. And 723 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: I said, what, No, they don't, and they said, sure 724 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: they do. They have ethics and morals. They just are 725 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: not our ethics and morals. And I've said this before. 726 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: John reginal Christy, who I wrote about, loved his animal. 727 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: He loved his dog. He spent all of his money 728 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: to put the dog down before he went on the run. 729 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: That was his one of his you know, morals. So 730 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: maybe Cindy's like that too. I don't understand it, but 731 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: she has some sort of allegiance to her mom, apparently 732 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: not to Bruce. I mean that seems clear. 733 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 2: She says she loved Bruce, that he was a great guy, 734 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 2: and yeah, so that's not true. She loved him. And 735 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: as far as her mom goes that, she's never seen 736 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: her mom since her mom went to prison. They've never 737 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 2: communicated in any way, no phone calls, no prison visits, 738 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 2: no letters, nothing, So even though she you know, it's 739 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: like she gave away everything. She got the two hundred 740 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. You know, back then I thought, wow, that's 741 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: a lot of money, but today you wouldn't know it. 742 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,439 Speaker 2: I mean, she lives a very simple life, taking care 743 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: of you know, her own grandkids, so you know, it 744 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 2: didn't turn out so great for her either. 745 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: Well another thought for me, I think also would be 746 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: the randomness. It sounds like bother Cindy, because if it 747 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: were in the family, it was predictable. She warned everybody, 748 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: I am going to kill my husband, so it didn't 749 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: sound like she had a fear that, you know, eventually 750 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: Stella would kill her or any of the other siblings. 751 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: She had said very clearly, this is my intention. But 752 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: when you're killing random people, it just yeah, it's another 753 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: ethical line I would not agree with. But that she 754 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: has I. 755 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: Think you're spot on that. I mean, it takes it 756 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: out of the family, and that's not going to happen 757 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 2: on her watch. That's her code. I mean, we could 758 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 2: so you know, if it's within the family, it's super fine. 759 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: But it's not, and that's hard for you to understand Kate. 760 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 2: I don't understand it, but I know that it means 761 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 2: something to her. 762 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: You interviewed Stella Nicol also, yeah, oh no, you said, 763 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: I hope people stick around for the end of this. 764 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: What happened with this woman was she just as self 765 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: absorbed and narcissistic as I imagine in my head. She 766 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: was in an interview with journalist. 767 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 2: You know, here I am, I'm writing this book about 768 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: her crime and everything, and she knows that I'm talking 769 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 2: to all of her friends in all in the FBI 770 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: and everything, because that's kind of how I work. I 771 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: start from the outside and work in before I go 772 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: to the perpetrator. And Stella, you know, she looked at 773 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: me and she says, Greg, I'm really good at sizing 774 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: people up. I'm looking right at you, and I know 775 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: you're going to write a really fair book about me. 776 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 2: And I said, okay, so, and I feel like I did. 777 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: She didn't like the book when it came out because 778 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: there was a lot of sex stuff in it, and 779 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 2: then later she did send me a note she said, 780 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: I think I hadn't read it when I was reacting 781 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 2: to you before, and I read it now and she said, 782 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: I think you. 783 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: Were fair, okay. 784 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 2: When I met her, I met her four times in prison. 785 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: She's in federal prison in California, so I saw her 786 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: on four different business and you know, each time I 787 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: was really pushing for her to tell me the truth 788 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: about was there an accomplice. I always felt at that 789 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 2: time that Cindy had helped her, And she said, oh, 790 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 2: it could be. I'm not sure I know that. At 791 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: that point, Stella knew that if she told me Cindy 792 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 2: wasn't accomplice, she would be confessing that she had been 793 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 2: the killer too. And she said, I have no idea 794 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 2: what my daughter did. I don't know. Maybe possibly kind 795 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 2: of lead me along. It was only until about a 796 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: year ago, after multiple attempts before the parole Boar, she's 797 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 2: almost like she's at seventy eight years old. Now she's 798 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 2: been in there a long time. She's finally confessed. She's 799 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 2: finally said I did it. I don't know why I 800 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 2: killed Bruce. He didn't beat me, he wasn't unkind to me. 801 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 2: I can't answer the why, but yes, I did do 802 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: that crime. She didn't answer what happened to Sue. You know, 803 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 2: she didn't ever comment on killing Sue. Snow, but she 804 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 2: did it, finally confess after thirty years of saying she 805 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: was innocent, and then she made a compassionate plea to 806 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 2: get out of prison because of her age and because 807 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 2: of her health, which the prison board, you know, they 808 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 2: turned that down. They won't. They wouldn't let her out, 809 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: and they shouldn't. She killed somebody to people, but she 810 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 2: killed a person she didn't even know, and she did 811 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 2: it in the way that risks everybody's lives that are 812 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 2: in that store or could shop there, And that's not 813 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: the kind of person we want free. I don't think 814 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: she ever will get out. She will end up, you know, 815 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 2: serving more time in a federal prison than any other 816 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 2: woman I think in US history. 817 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: Amazing. What are your takeaways from this story? 818 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 2: That whole idea, Kate, that we don't really know, you know, 819 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: why people do the things they do. We can guess 820 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,800 Speaker 2: and we can spend a story, right, we can tell 821 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 2: people all these little bits of evidence point to the 822 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 2: reason why this happened. I thought that was a really 823 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 2: good case for me to learn from in that regard. 824 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 2: But I also thought about the power of family, whether 825 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: your family's corrupt or whatever, there is a kind of 826 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 2: that old thing that you know, the tie that binds 827 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 2: its family, And it's really true. People will do anything 828 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 2: to protect each other until their price is met. And 829 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 2: in Cindy's case, it was two hundred thousand dollars. 830 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,720 Speaker 1: So who ends up walking away with all that money? 831 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: Is it all to Cindy? 832 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 2: No, there was about fifty thousand that was divided among 833 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 2: I think four other people. The fish store owner that 834 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 2: identified her as the shopper for the algae destroyer tablets 835 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 2: he got some money, and a couple of other friends 836 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: got some money too. 837 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: Did anything functional come out of this, like any legislation 838 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: or any changes with bottling? Did this case have an 839 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: impact that's just further than a true crime case. 840 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean it had a huge impact. It 841 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 2: changed really into everything. The safety seals that now you 842 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: see after you open the bottle, there's a safety seal there. 843 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 2: It's foil and if you see any sign of tambringer, 844 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 2: you know that somebody got in there. There's also shrink 845 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: wrap around the outside of the boxes now, the caps, 846 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 2: everything now is designed so that nobody can get in 847 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: there and tamper with that product without you as the 848 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,959 Speaker 2: consumer wondering like, oh, well, why is that turned this way? 849 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: Or why is this slit cut in here? You would 850 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 2: see any sign. Now, before all they had to do 851 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: was take the top off and you know, put something in. 852 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 2: Now they've got a cut it open and it's just 853 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 2: not going to happen like I did before. What I 854 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 2: tell people, it's like, this is the only crime that 855 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 2: has affected all of us. If you've taken any product 856 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 2: for headache relief or a cough medicine or anything like that, 857 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 2: you can thank Stella Nicol and what she did because 858 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 2: she affected our daily lives for everyone in this country. 859 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 860 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 861 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 862 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our associate 863 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: producer is Alex ch This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 864 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 865 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 866 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 867 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold More and If you know 868 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 869 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 870 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 871 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for Wicked Words