1 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Cat and I 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: am the host of this podcast. If you're new, I 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: am a therapist, a licensed therapist that lives in Nashville 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: and works in Nashville, who decided that she wanted to 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: have conversations over you know, the inner webs about some 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: of the things that happened in my office. And before 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: we get going, I want to just remind everybody that 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: though I am a therapist, this is not therapy, and 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: therapy is something that happens with you and another person 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: that you're in a relationship with, and I just can't 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: do that over a podcast. But if I could, that 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: would be kind of cool. But just want to remind 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: you guys that this is really a platform that I 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: used to help get you guys thinking and moving to 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: engage in that stuff in your own life, and I 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: can only do so much with the podcast. With all 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: of that, I would like to introduce to you the 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: guests that we have today. It's been a couple of 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: weeks without guests and that's been really fun. You guys 21 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: know that I love to just like talk about things 22 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm passionate about without having to stop. But I had 23 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: a really good conversation with somebody named Holly Christine Hayes, 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: and she is one a gem of a human who 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: was doing incredible work in the world. She founded something 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: called the Sanctuary Project, which is a jewelry nonprofit that 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: employees women survivors of trafficking, violence, and addiction in Austin, Texas. 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: And she's also a survivor herself and has a beautiful 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: story of redemption and healing that she talks about with 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: me that I'm so grateful for. And I was really 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: excited to have this conversation because a lot of the times, 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: the things that I'm talking about on here, I know 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: a lot about, but this is the area that I 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: just don't and I haven't done a lot of research on. 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: I haven't spent a lot of time looking into. And 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: I am so grateful to have people like Holly who 37 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: are accessible and help us understand what really is going on, 38 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: because I think you guys might hear in this conversation, 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: I was surprised to hear about the truth about what 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: sex trafficking really is and what it can really look 41 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: like in the United States. So she's awesome. If you 42 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: want to follow her, you can follow her at at 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: Holly Christine Hayes and then you can follow the Sanctuary 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: Project at at Sanctuary Underscore Project. They have beautiful stuff 45 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: and I can't wait to get on there and get 46 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: some for myself. And as always, if you guys have 47 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: any questions or feedback, let me know. While you are 48 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: following Holly and the Sanctuary Project, go ahead and follow 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: me at cat dot de fata and the podcast at 50 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: you Need Therapy podcast, And if you have questions you 51 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: can send them to Catherine at you Need Therapy podcast 52 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: dot com. I hope you enjoy this, And here is 53 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: my conversation with Holly. Holly, I am so grateful that 54 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: you're here today and so excited to talk to you 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: about so many things. But I think what I want 56 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: to start talking with you about, which will probably lead 57 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: into a million other conversations, is the Sanctuary Project, which 58 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: is a company that you founded and started with a 59 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: very specific purpose and passion behind And so can you 60 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: just take us through the beginnings of that and just 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: tell us the story and the journey around Sanctuary Project. 62 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: So I started Sanctuary Project in February of two thousand eighteen, 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: and I had come out of a life of trafficking, 64 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: violence and addiction twenty years ago and had really spent 65 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: a lot of years mentoring other girls and volunteering in 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: in anti trafficking community and in the recovery community, and 67 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: saw that there was this gap in terms of care 68 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: around reintegration and employment. So I would see girls coming 69 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: out of incarceration or beginning the recovery journey, or coming 70 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: out of a sex trafficking situation and getting into a 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: safe house, but really having trouble making that next step 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: and getting that first job, And a lot of times 73 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: it was because the resume was a mess, you know, 74 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: like there or there was no resume, there had never 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: been any legal work. And then you know, self esteem 76 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: had been completely wrecked through so much trauma, you know, 77 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: and then just the very area of work itself had 78 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: been exploited and really messed with through through sex trafficking 79 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: or through other traumas that that women had suffered. And 80 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: and for myself, that was an issue even transitioning into 81 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: meaningful and dignified employment. So what I wanted to create 82 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: was a place where women could cry at work. We 83 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: like to tell them that first and foremost, and where 84 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: they could really rebuild their lives and rebuild their resumes 85 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: in the community with other women who were coming out 86 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: of the same situations and who understood and so in 87 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: some ways, it's this combination of a workplace in a 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: therapeutic community because we're gathering together with shared traumas and 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: shared life experiences, but we're also doing work or also 90 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: making jewelry where a jewelry line, so are producing jewelry 91 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: and selling jewelry and marketing jewelry, and and so it's 92 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: fun because they're learning all these skills in the meantime 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: while they're in a therapeutic community. You know, that's so 94 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: interesting to me because I started my work in a 95 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: treatment center where I worked with a lot of addiction 96 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: and the difference that I might have seen, but I 97 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: also didn't always see. This is a lot of the 98 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: clients I had were coming from somewhat affluent families in 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: and and had resources, but some of them didn't. And 100 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: their reintegration back after they would go to sober living, 101 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: they would do all the right things like that's what 102 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: broke my heart. I would have these clients. This is 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: one thing I believe nobody just wakes up and it's like, 104 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to become an addict and ruin my life 105 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: like something something else there ha been, Yeah, like yes, 106 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: and then they would have this like zest for life again. 107 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: They would listen to every recommendation I have and then 108 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: they would get stuck because maybe they're in their thirties 109 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: or their forties or it doesn't matter what age, but 110 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: they are trying to get back into a culture in 111 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: a life that isn't really open to them based on 112 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: the trajectory they had had before that This is kind 113 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: of off topic, but that's something that gets me going 114 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: when people talk about like homelessness and stuff like that, 115 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: about they just need to get a job, and I'm like, 116 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: if you realized how hard that is. It's not always 117 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: a lack of trying. Yeah, And I mean, and I 118 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: don't think that's off topic topic at all, right, I mean, 119 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: it's because they're also integrated. And I love that you 120 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: brought up that sometimes they're coming from an affluent background 121 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: or have had access to resources. Sometimes they're not, but 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: it kind of almost doesn't matter. I Mean, I came 123 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: from resources, I grew up in a good family, but 124 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: it didn't matter because so many years of trauma had 125 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: really wrecked that life path in so many ways. And 126 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: so even when there's access to education and resources, there's 127 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: still that emotional block from how do I move forward 128 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: and just function as a normal adult in society? And 129 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned like it's a place where people are allowed 130 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: to cry at work, which like, thank god, because I 131 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: think there's a huge and I get it in some areas, 132 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: but in some areas I don't. There's a huge separation 133 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: of like we have to come in and be these 134 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: strong people and we can't have any emotions, and it's 135 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: you don't know what anybody is going through and you 136 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: don't know what has brought them into work that day, 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: and to not be able to actually feel things and 138 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: have to shut things down. It's easy to be said, 139 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: but when you really know somebody's story, it makes so 140 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: much more sense. So to have the ability to show 141 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: up and not to have to hold everything together, like 142 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: if you're having a hard day, like it's okay to 143 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: have a hard day, versus if you have a hard day, 144 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: you're fired. Yeah, I mean it's and it is in society. 145 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: There's all this stigma around it, right, I mean You 146 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: don't want to go into the bank and have your 147 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: bank teller like breaking down and crying and telling you 148 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: that she's that she's a week in recovery and that 149 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: she was trafficked, and you know, you don't want that. Really, 150 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: Like society has to hold it together in some ways. 151 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: But if we can create communities where it's expected that 152 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: there's going to be that reaction to life, then I 153 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: think that provides those re entry points. I remember when 154 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: I was first getting sober, I started working at this 155 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: shoe shine stand that employed people in recovery, and it 156 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: was known in the community. I was in San Francisco, 157 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: and it was known in that community that that shoe 158 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: shine stand employed people who were oftentimes early in recovery, 159 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: sometimes even later in recovery, and and so people coming 160 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: in to get a shoe shine probably knew that. And 161 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: so if the person shining their shoes was crying all 162 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden, they were not surprised, right, they were like, Okay, 163 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: I know what I'm in for it. And it was 164 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: a place where I learned and saw that model that 165 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity to have employers that understood and 166 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: to have a group of co workers that understood. And 167 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: there were days where we had to say, okay, like 168 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: I need to leave and go to a meeting because 169 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm not doing well. And then there were other days 170 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: where we got to just thrive in that environment because 171 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: there wasn't that pressure. And I really learned self esteem 172 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: and work ethic in that environment and met so many 173 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: interesting people because people were coming in and we were 174 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: shining their shoes, and all day long, I was taking 175 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: these messy shoes and making them beautiful, and so I 176 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: got to see, you know, I kind of got to 177 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: see how I was doing that in my own life 178 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: as well, like taking taking this mess and making it beautiful. 179 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: And I learned so much about how to be a 180 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: safe place in that environment. I love that since you 181 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: mentioned your story, I want to know a little bit 182 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: about is the difference between what people think sex trafficking 183 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: is versus what it might really be, because I will 184 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: say from my own experience, I'm not an expert at this, 185 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: like I said, but growing up, I always thought like 186 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: sex trafficking is something that was like what was that 187 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: movie like Taken or something like that. That's what I 188 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: thought it was. I didn't realize that it could be 189 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: all around me here, and then it doesn't always look 190 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to use that the word extreme, but 191 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: that's the word that's coming to my head. But it 192 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: doesn't always look that way. Yeah, And I think that's 193 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: really important to unpack because so many people have this 194 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: preconceived notion, either that it looks like the movie Taken 195 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: or that it's something happens over there, like in Southeast 196 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: Asia or in Africa, you know, in places where that 197 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: are known for sort of sex tourism. But basically the 198 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: definition of sex trafficking is someone committing a commercial sex 199 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: act through force, fraud, or coercion. So what that means 200 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: is that if you have someone who is in uh 201 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: in economic instability or suffering from an addiction, and then 202 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: someone comes along and exploits that and says, hey, I 203 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: know how I can help you. We can start selling you, 204 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: and and that person doesn't really feel like they have 205 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: any other choice. Sometimes it's called a pimp or you know, 206 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: our lover boy or Romeo pimp or you know, sometimes 207 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: it's a boyfriend, sometimes it's a family member, sometimes it's 208 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: a friend. But if there's someone pulling the strings behind 209 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: the scenes and collecting money from that person. They're not 210 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: keeping all their money, and they're not free to live 211 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: wherever they want and do whatever they want. That is 212 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: the definition of sex trafficking. And so a lot of 213 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: what we see as or might consider sort of typical prostitution, 214 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: we have to actually ask the question what's going on 215 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Is this person completely choosing this out 216 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: of their own free will? And is this person keeping 217 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: a hundred percent of the money they're making, And did 218 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: no one else suggest or manipulate them into this? But 219 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: what we have is in America is um an imbalance 220 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: and supply and demand for sex. For commercial sex, there 221 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: are not as many willing prostitutes as there are men 222 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: wanting to purchase prostitutes, and so what that creates is exploitation. 223 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: And anywhere there's an imbalance of supply and demand for sex, 224 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: you're going to have exploitation. And so I think there 225 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: is this misunderstanding that it would all be kidnapping, because 226 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: the path of least resistance for a trafficker is not 227 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: actually to kidnap someone from a good family. It's to 228 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: find that girl who is already suffering from an addiction 229 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: that they know they can manipulate with drugs, to find 230 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: that girl who's coming out of the foster care system 231 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: and has nowhere else to go, who they know they 232 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: can manipulate by providing basic basic needs, housing, food, shelter, 233 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: all those things. Or to find that person that they 234 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: can manipulate through a relate relationship and ultimately get them 235 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: to um to perform sexual commercial sex acts for their benefit. 236 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: When you use the word manipulation, I hear that a 237 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: lot of times whoever is engaging or as being sex 238 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: traffic doesn't fully know that that's happening. Yeah, and that 239 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: was the case for me for sure. Yes. Can you 240 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: talk about that looked like and how you kind of 241 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: like woke up to what was happening? Yeah, I mean 242 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: my situation was really interesting because I had had some 243 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: sexual abuse in my childhood, so I already had a 244 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: sort of warped sense of my sexual identity. Um, I 245 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: already had gotten the message that that's what made me valuable. 246 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: I was already promiscuous from a young age, and so 247 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: there was there was already a lot of kind of 248 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: sexual dysfunction in my life. I had also been attracted 249 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: to violent, abusive relationships from a very early time, and 250 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: so when my trafficker came along. It felt very comfortable 251 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: because it became violent very quickly. Um, there was sexual 252 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: perversion there, and that felt comfortable for me. Um, it 253 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: wasn't something I was not used to. It wasn't something 254 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: that raised any red flags. If anything, it helped me 255 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: feel comfortable, like, oh, okay, he could maybe love me 256 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: because he doesn't judge me from my my past, from oscuity. 257 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: And then he was also an addict, and I was 258 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: an addict, and so there was this like commonality there 259 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: as well, and it seemed like he really understood my 260 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: needs and my desires and he acted like he loved me, 261 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: and so about the relationship became violent very quickly. And 262 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: then I learned there were other women very quickly. So 263 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: that set up this sense of competition where I wanted 264 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: to be his favorite. I wanted to be the best one. 265 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: And so by the time he suggested that he starts 266 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: selling me to other men, he had so manipulated the 267 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: situation to make me feel like that was my value 268 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: that when he suggested it, it was like, wow, he 269 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: must think I'm so valuable and like you were chosen, 270 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: like I was chosen, Like I was so special that 271 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: men would pay for me and that he could take 272 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: care of me, and all I had to do was 273 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: do this thing. And it was, um, you know, I 274 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: really if someone as to me what was going on, 275 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: I would have said, well, he's my boyfriend and he's 276 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: helping me out, because I didn't think I could take 277 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: care of myself without him. I didn't think I was 278 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: capable of paying my own rent and feeding myself and 279 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: you know, and making my own way in the world. 280 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: And here he offered this sort of easy out of 281 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: while you can live with me and I'll take care 282 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: of you and i'll keep you high and i'll feed 283 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: you and all you have to do is this and 284 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: I'll collect the money, but you'll be taken care of. 285 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: And so there was this sense of security really that 286 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: came from it, and this sense of this man is 287 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: taking care of me, and I now, Um, I go 288 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: into the jails often, and I often meet with traffickers, 289 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: even women who have who have been traffickers, and that's 290 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the narrative they're even telling themselves, is oh, 291 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm just taking care of them, you know. And that's 292 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: like this this lie that they're sort of telling the women, 293 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: and that they're telling themselves to like, I'm taking care 294 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: of you. All you have to do is do this. 295 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: I keep the money, but I keep a roof over 296 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: your head. You know, it was years before I would 297 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: have identified as a trafficking survivor. I identified as a 298 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: former sex worker, long before I was able to identify 299 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: as a trafficking survivor. And it wasn't until someone pointed 300 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: out to me when I identified as a former sex 301 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: worker that they asked, you know, they really started digging 302 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: and they were like, was there Did you never have 303 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: a pimp? Was there no one pulling the strings behind 304 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: the scenes? And I was like, well, yeah, my boyfriend. 305 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: But oh wait, you know, did you keep all your money? 306 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: Well no, I mean my boyfriend did, but he was. 307 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: And then it was like, oh wait, and they're like, 308 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: so he was. You guys were in like an exclusive relationship. 309 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: Will know yet other women? But and it sort of 310 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: started to unravel for me where I was like, oh 311 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: my gosh, this was trafficking and and my situation because 312 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: I had seen the movie Taken and it didn't look 313 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: like that. I had that that those false narratives in 314 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: my mind as well. And so when I realized that 315 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: was my situation. It made me really passionate about finding 316 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: those other women in America who had similar situations but 317 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: but weren't necessarily identifying as a trafficking survivor because they 318 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: weren't as familiar with the definition as they probably need 319 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: to be. What does that do I mean in your 320 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: life and and maybe the things that you've seen in 321 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: women that you've worked with? What is that due to 322 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: your almost like your sense of self? And I don't 323 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: know there's shame wrapped around in that. To move from 324 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: a place of he was taking care of me, I 325 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: was choosing this to like, oh I wasn't in control 326 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: or things weren't for you. Was that a like, uh, 327 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: oh I can release some something or was it like, 328 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, my life is not what I thought 329 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: it was. I think it was probably for me personally 330 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: a little more oh my gosh, my life is not 331 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: what I thought it was, because the narrative I told 332 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: myself is that I was in control. I remember, even 333 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: when I started stripping at eighteen, the girl who recruited 334 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: me into that was like, this is how you can 335 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: take control of your sexuality. You're in charge, you decide, 336 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: you take their money, Um, this, this makes you powerful. 337 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: And so in some ways there's a lot of sex 338 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: workers out there in the world who have this narrative 339 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: of this is what makes me powerful. I take the money, 340 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: I decide even that, Like remember that old movie Pretty Woman. 341 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: It was like I say, I say, when I say, 342 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: how much, Like there is this narrative that you tell 343 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: yourself of like I'm an empowered woman, I'm choosing this 344 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: and I and this is this is me taking control 345 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: of my life. And so when I realized and really 346 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: started to come to grips with how much exploitation had 347 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: been involved and how much I really was not in 348 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: control of those choices, I think that's when the shame 349 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: came for me a bit, because it was like, well, gosh, wow, 350 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: Like am I that foolish? Am I that stupid or 351 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: whatever to have been manipulated in that way? And I 352 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: see that with a lot of the women I work with, 353 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: And I think that's why women have trouble identifying as 354 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: a trafficking survivor. It's, um, it's far easier for women 355 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: to identify as domestic violence survivors or as addicts, where 356 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: it's very clear that's what's going on. Most of the 357 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: women I think I work with, I have to kind 358 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: of talk them through, well, this was trafficking, and this 359 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: is the definition. And then even you know, there are 360 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: some women who who don't choose to identify that way. 361 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: They choose to, you know, sort of keep that identification 362 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: and of no, it was prostitution, No, it was I 363 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: was complicit in it. I was choosing it too, And 364 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: that's fine. I think whatever, whatever, we need to believe 365 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: about it in order to kind of keep our sanity 366 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: as we work through the traumas I'm twenty years out. 367 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: For a girl that's a year out, that's really different. Yeah, 368 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: And because I was thinking that that must be so tough. 369 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: I don't know the right terms to use either. But 370 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how women are are rescued from these situations, 371 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: especially if they're like you where you're like, no, this 372 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: is for me, and I'm in charge. It's like on 373 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: the outside, it's like I want to rescue this person 374 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and pull them out of this. But pulling them out 375 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: of it would force them to realize and and look 376 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: at some really painful stuff that I don't know if 377 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: I would be able to handle that. Yeah, I I 378 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: disliked the word rescue in some ways for that reason, 379 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: because I would not have known I needed to be 380 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: rescued from my trafficking situation. I did know I needed 381 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: to be rescued from my addiction, and so in some ways, 382 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: it's so much easier for me to find the women 383 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: to work with within a recovery community or or coming 384 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: out of addiction. I also, most of the women I 385 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: work with we meet in the jail, and that's a 386 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: great place to intersect them as well, because you know, 387 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: they've already in a sense, been rescued. They've been separated 388 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: from their trafficker, and they've had consequences now, and the 389 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: consequences fell on them even though there was someone pulling 390 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: the strings behind the scenes. They've been arrested for prostitution, 391 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: or they've been arrested for holding drugs for their trafficker, 392 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: and so in a lot of ways, they're paying the 393 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: penalty for an exploitation that happened to them, and there's 394 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: this opportunity for me to enter their lives, start to 395 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: talk to them about what actually happened, and for them 396 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: to sort of have their eyes opened in a gentle 397 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: way and in a really safe place where they've been rescued, 398 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: right like in quotes by by being arrested. They've been 399 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: separated from that trafficking situation. But you know, guns blazing 400 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: going into a hotel room and trying to pull girls 401 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: out that are they just think you're taking them away 402 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: from their boyfriend. So, you know what a lot of 403 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: the homes for girl coming out of sex trafficking or 404 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: for underage girls, and what happens when an underage girl 405 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: is arrested for prostitution issues immediately sent to one of 406 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: these homes to recover from sex trafficking because any commercial 407 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: sex act with a minor is considered trafficking. And so 408 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: so you have all these these homes for these young 409 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: girls and they just end up running away. You know, 410 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: That's it's a chronic issue we see, is that these 411 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: girls are just running away from these homes because they 412 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: didn't want to be rescued. They thought they were having fun, 413 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: they thought it was their boyfriend, they thought they were 414 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: in control. And so it's this is a lot of 415 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: the issues we see that a lot of that society 416 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: doesn't really fully understand. I think they think anyone who 417 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: is being held in this way and manipulated in this way. 418 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: Of course they would want to be rescued. Of course 419 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: they would want to be pulled out. But it's just 420 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: not that simple. I think there's so much Stockholm syndrome 421 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: that happens. There's so much um confusion about it, and 422 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: there's and and it's all knit to your sexuality, which 423 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: is so all encompassing and and is connected to your 424 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: heart and your soul and your mind and you know, 425 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: and there's so there's so much going on that it's 426 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: hard for people to understand. Yeah, and for you, was 427 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: it It sounds like it was more of like I 428 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: realized I needed help in one area of my life, 429 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: and that was addiction. Yeah. Yeah, And I think that 430 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: that's that's really common, right, because it's so easy to 431 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: hit bottom with an addiction. And really, if I look 432 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: at my trafficking, it was just a symptom, you know, 433 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: and so and for so many women, trafficking is just 434 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: another symptom of an addiction that's made their lives out 435 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: of control. So even today, when I look back on 436 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: my life and what led to all those horrific traumas 437 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: and circumstances, the addiction was at the core of it. 438 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: Because without that addiction sort of driving my choices where 439 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: I was, my circumstances, none of those other things would 440 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: have happened. And of course if you go further, without 441 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: childhood sexual trauma, probably there wouldn't have been an addiction. 442 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: But but that addiction was the was the primary thing 443 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: I knew I needed to treat. What did that look 444 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: like for you? Because what we know, what most of 445 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: our listeners know from listening is nobody can be which 446 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: I think is that I like the idea of not 447 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: rescuing somebody or not using that word, or even like 448 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: the fact that they don't want to be rescued. Is 449 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: that also and all of our stuff I doesn't have 450 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: to be addiction. It could be literally anything that we're doing. 451 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: You're not going to change the behavior or change the 452 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: thing until you want to. We can't force anybody, which 453 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: is so hard. Was a very hard lesson as therapist 454 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: to learn. But for you, where did you come to 455 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: a place of like this is not working for me anymore? 456 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: Like what everybody's bottom is different? But what did that 457 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: look like for you? For me, it was a lot 458 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: of years of consequences just piling up, you know, in 459 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: the beginning, my drinking and drug use was fun, and 460 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: then it was fun with consequences, and then it was 461 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: just consequences and and a lot of it was linked 462 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: to that that relationship with my trafficker, because I kept 463 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: getting drunk and high and not showing up for the 464 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: jobs he was lining up for me and handed up 465 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: kicking me out. So then I ended up homeless, and 466 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: so that homeless this for me was really what brought 467 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: me to my knees um, you know. But it was 468 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: before that there were arrests, you know, multiple arrests, and 469 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: multiple violent relationships, multiple abortions that were pretty heartbreaking, you know, 470 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: just like consequence after consequence after consequence, and really a 471 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: picture of a life that I knew was so out 472 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: of control. And I tried to kind of manage it 473 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, I would like, Okay, 474 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop doing crystal meth, but then the drinking 475 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: would take off, or like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna 476 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: manage it by smoking weed all the time. But then 477 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: I like, then I'd get really anxious and need to drink, 478 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: and so I would I just kept trying to throw 479 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: different substances at it. And try to figure out what 480 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: combination would make me feel comfortable in my skin. And 481 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: so for me, my my bottom really came after after 482 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: I was kicked out and ended up homeless, and I 483 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: was on the floor of a public bathroom and just crying. 484 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: And my story is really similar to so many people 485 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: in recovery. But um, I said, God help me. I 486 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: didn't believe in God, no experience with God. But that 487 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: night I met someone who was in recovery, who had 488 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: been a a for three years and was sober three 489 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: years and took me to my first recovery meeting. And 490 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: I've been sober since that day. And that was February 491 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: eleventh of two thousand one. So it was like massive 492 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: radical transformation, just ultimately, like I mean, just like removed 493 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: from me really in that moment. And and yet without 494 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: the twelve step recovery community that I'm still a part 495 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: of today twenty years later, I know I wouldn't have 496 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: been able to maintain that right. I do believe that 497 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: that sobriety was a gift that was given to me 498 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: in a moment, but I also believe it's a continual 499 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: surrender and action that I've that I've chosen to take 500 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: because I know what the consequences looked like and I'm 501 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: not willing to go back there. That's amazing twenty Like, 502 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: that's congratulations, thank you, incredible, It's pretty cool. And I 503 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: wonder some of because I'm assuming that your story does 504 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: stand in line with a lot of other people's stories 505 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: of the sobriety is one thing, Right, how did you 506 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: integrate back into the world after going through all that 507 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: stuff that that was your life and your identity and 508 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: the way you coped and the view of yourself the 509 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: view of the world like getting sobers one part, and 510 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: then I haven't even know how to ask that question, 511 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: but like how did that happen? Like how did you 512 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: develop into this like human you are now, which you're 513 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: you're always that person, but to know that person and 514 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: show that person off more, You're gonna like this answer. Okay, therapy, 515 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean, and a combination of of a 516 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: lot of good therapy over the years. And you know, 517 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: I've started in behavior modification, which is not a bad 518 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: place to start. I wish I'd started an A M 519 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: d R because that's where like the real transformation for 520 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: me has happened. But yeah, a combination of time behavior modification, 521 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: E M d R. Spiritual life. I have a spiritual 522 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: life recovery community, surrounding myself with others who have who 523 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: have been through the same stuff I've been through. Meditation. 524 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of like try it all, find 525 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: what works, because over the years and over the years 526 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: what's worked has shift into I mean early on, I 527 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: needed to just like go to AA meetings, you know. 528 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: I needed to just like to show up, sit down 529 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: in a seat, do what my sponsor told me to do, 530 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: you know. And I needed to be in meetings every day. 531 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: I had to UM. I needed a social life that 532 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: was separate from my addiction. And that was where I 533 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: found that. I was young. I was twenty one years 534 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: old when I got soberned. So I ended up in 535 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: the young people's community and UM and found friendships and 536 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: found a safe place. I found that shoeshine stand that 537 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: I UM that I talked about as as sort of 538 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: a first safe job. And from there, and actually at 539 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: that shoeshine stand, met someone who worked in real estate 540 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: who recruited me, and I ended up working in real 541 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: estate and that was a really nice flexible job so 542 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: I could still take care of myself and still be 543 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: in therapy, be in meetings, be doing all the things 544 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: I needed to do. I have fought for my recovery 545 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: over the years. You know, Um, I don't think health 546 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: just happens accidentally. And I kept seeing sim of unhealth, 547 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: mostly in my relationships that drove me to various bottoms 548 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: over the years. Right. You know, it was like, how 549 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: am I still in an abusive relationship? Okay, I need 550 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: more work now? How Why am I still making these 551 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: self destructive choices? Okay I need more work? Why am 552 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: I still feeling suicidal and anxious? Okay? I need to 553 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: do more work. And so every time I start to 554 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,239 Speaker 1: notice old stuff cropping back up, I know there's just 555 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: another layer of work to do, more work to do, 556 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: deeper to go, more to unravel, more to unpack. And 557 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,239 Speaker 1: I'm just a huge fan of just try everything and 558 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: keep going, keep going, which I love. I love that 559 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: you said that because a lot of people will ask me, well, 560 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: when when is this done? Like when are we done 561 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: with this? And I'm like, We're never done, because you're 562 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: continuing to live life. And I truly believe what happens 563 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: a lot of times is we as humans were somewhat egocentric, 564 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: especially when we're younger. We are living in this world 565 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: that's very broken. There's a lot of mess and messed 566 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: up stuff in the world that we live in, and 567 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: what happened this We we engage and we bump up 568 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: against the messed up stuff, and because we're ecocentric, we 569 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: make it about us and not about the world. So 570 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: it's we're messed up versus the world is messed up, 571 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: and it just becomes part of our story if we're 572 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: not continuing to learn about who we are and what 573 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: things mean. Because the part where you said, why am 574 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: I still finding myself in these types of relationships based 575 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 1: on what you've shared with your story so far, like 576 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: you were attracted to what you knew, and that makes sense. 577 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: Like also our stories show us what to expect about 578 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: people in the world. And if we don't uncover your 579 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: story and figure out, okay, what was real, what was 580 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: not real, what was about you was what wasn't about you, 581 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: then you're going to think that that's how relationships work, right, 582 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: And it's almost comfortable to be in that until it's not. Yeah, 583 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: until it's not. And and that's a really good point too, 584 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: And I think I've taken these breaks from therapy or 585 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: treatment over the years too that have been really healthy 586 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: because I've been able to sort of get a temperature 587 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: or gauge on where am I at, Like who am 588 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: I drawn to? What do my friendships look like, what 589 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: are my relationships look like? What is my family relationship 590 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: look like? How do I feel emotionally? What what shames 591 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: am I holding onto? What fears am I holding onto? 592 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: And taking those breaks to to just live and do 593 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: self reflection and self assessment and and then you know, 594 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: and then when it hurts again to go back and 595 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: and fix it. And it gives you some autonomy too, 596 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: of like, oh, look what I have done and I don't. 597 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: That doesn't always have to be my story, and I 598 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: can do things and recognize things on my own. I 599 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: also wonder, I love this talking about this stuff too, 600 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: of of you mentioning like God was never a thing 601 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: for me. Faith was never a thing for me, And 602 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 1: I fully believe that's a very personal experience, and whatever 603 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: your spiritual and faith story is, that gets to be yours. 604 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: I don't think there's one right way to do for everybody, 605 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: but I do believe in recovery, and I could totally 606 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: argue that everybody and in some aspects of their lives, 607 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: are finding recovery from something because we live in a 608 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 1: world that is very addictive based that's how our minds are. 609 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: But I do believe in our recovery journeys and stories, 610 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: it's important to have some kind of spiritual life. So 611 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: can you talk about how yours was helpful and not 612 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: just your recovery process, but just in building the life 613 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: that you love? Yeah? Absolutely, you know. I mine was 614 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: a really interesting journey because having not grown up with 615 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: any sort of idea of God or you know, I 616 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: grew up in the San Francisco Bay area where I 617 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: mean there was some sort of like new ag stuff 618 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: around me that was like mind over matter or something 619 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: like that, you know. But then I said this prayer 620 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: like on accident, sort of on the floor of this 621 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: public bathroom, and that night met someone who got me 622 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: into recovery program and bensover since that day, so I 623 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: had to ask, like, who is this god thing that 624 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: I like said that too? And then everything changed, Like 625 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: I kind of had to wrestle with this because it 626 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: was like this is my experience. I know, I had 627 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: other points where I had resolved and I couldn't do it. 628 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: I know, there were points where the consequences were bad 629 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: enough that I should have stopped and I couldn't do it. 630 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: But then for some reason I said this prayer thing 631 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: and it and like it happened. But then I spent 632 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: eight years trying to figure out like what spiritual life 633 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: or what God that the world has offered? Um matches 634 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: my experience And kind of like I was saying earlier, 635 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: I tried everything right, I was like, well, what does 636 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: what does Buddhism say? Like who is God there? What 637 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: does yoga say? What does what does Oprah say? What 638 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: does the secrets say? What is what does Judaism say? Um? 639 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: What does Christianity say? And I you know, for me, 640 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: I landed on a faith and I'm a Christian today. 641 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: And that was not That was actually the last one 642 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: I tried. I mean, I guess it was the last 643 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: one I tried suits someone that stuck. But um, but 644 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: it was the last one I thought to try because 645 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: Christians had never really been safe in my experience. But 646 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: then when I actually dug into like what is the 647 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: spiritual life offering in terms of how I am able 648 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: to connect to God. That was the one that worked 649 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: for me. That was the one that felt like, this 650 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: helps me access a God that I believe could care 651 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: about me. And I think that's where I needed to 652 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: land in order to feel like I had a God 653 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: on my side, a God that's with me as I 654 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: as I journey through life and journey through recovery. A 655 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: God that's that is um concerned with the redemptive aspect 656 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: of my story. That was one of the pieces I 657 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: knew I needed in a higher power and in the 658 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: recovery community, we talked really just about a higher power 659 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: because you can make it anything. It can be a 660 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: door knob, it can be the ocean, it can be 661 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: your grandmother, and you know it can. It's just not 662 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: as long as it's not alcohol. I remember asking, can 663 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: it be pottle of vodka? And my sponsor was like, no, 664 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: that's but yeah. I mean for me, it was like, okay, 665 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: what is the spiritual life that that a matches my experience? 666 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: And that one did because it was like, okay, like 667 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: this is a god that's powerful enough that would intervene 668 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: in the life of a girl homeless and drunk on 669 00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: the floor of a public bathroom and give her a 670 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: whole new life. And then this is a God that 671 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: I can believe is with me and cares and and 672 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: can actually walk with me through this journey of recovery 673 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: and transformation and and bring hope and healing out of it. 674 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: And so my faith today is is central to my life. 675 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: And yet in the work I do, I do not 676 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: make it mandatory that they share my faith, because I 677 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: do think it's so important for people to find their 678 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: own relationship with God and find their spiritual life that 679 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: works for them. And there was a time when I 680 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: had a spiritual life that that worked for me for 681 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: a bit, when I was doing transcendental meditation and and 682 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: sort of just believing that God was like a loving being. 683 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: And and then I kind of outgrew that at one point, 684 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: you know, and I was like, this isn't working anymore. 685 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: I need something I need. I need my God to 686 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: be real and human. I need my God to be 687 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: something I can connect within a book or in a prayer, 688 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: or in a in a worship environment, or with other 689 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: people that have the same God. And so I think 690 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: that journey, too, is really part of the recovery experience 691 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: of finding that spiritual life that that gives you the 692 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: support you need to walk through life, because we we 693 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: are going to hit bumps and trials and ultimately, like 694 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: your mental health and your spiritual health are all you have, 695 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: Like that's it at the end of the day, and 696 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: hopefully some good relationships and so make sure that that 697 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: spiritual life is something that you can hold onto in 698 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: those rocky times. And for me, over the last twelve 699 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: years that I've been a Christian, it has been and 700 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: that's been really sweet and special for me and and 701 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: a place that I felt like I could go deeper 702 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: with God. And that's not all right. Like I also 703 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: and I say this to Christians a lot, because I 704 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: think sometimes we can make the spiritual life that's it, 705 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: Like you just need to pray it away if you 706 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: have anxiety, and just pray it away if you have 707 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: if you have depression, just get like you know, deliverance, 708 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: prayer or something. And I with any spirituality, I feel 709 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: like that is not that cannot be the full picture. 710 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: There has to be aspects of relationship and therapeutic mental 711 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: health doctors. Like I'm a big believer that like you 712 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: need you need a therapist for your mental health you 713 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: need a doctor for your physical health, and you need 714 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: God for your spiritual health. And so so I'm a 715 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: big fan of of even in the church talking about 716 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: the fact that that this spiritual life could not be 717 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: my everything. I also need my recovery community. I also 718 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: need my my therapist. I also need healthy relationships and 719 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: physical healing when I need it, and to do that 720 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: work in a holistic way that I appreciate that a lot, 721 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: because that does get miscons showed a lot and can 722 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: be very painful for a lot of people. Listen, it 723 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: becomes well, I'm not a good enough Christian, right, why 724 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: does God hate me? Because He's not healing this? And 725 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: I prayed about it. And healing can be in different ways, 726 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: and God can give us different things that we might 727 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: think aren't from God, but they might be from God, 728 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: like therapist might be from God. So but the other 729 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about, when you're talking about you 730 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: use a word like redemption, and I wonder with the 731 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: shame that surrounds I mean, most people struggle with some 732 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: aspect of shame as well in their lives, whether it 733 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: is from addiction or from a sex trafficking situation or 734 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: something like that. And for you, And maybe we'll end 735 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of on this, but how did you heal from 736 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: the shame that could have taken over your life and 737 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: told you that that that's you for the rest of 738 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: your life, in your bad which what shame tells us. 739 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: How did you see that in you? What was helpful 740 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: in that for you to remove almost like shield that 741 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: keeps you from being free? And then how do you 742 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: work with humans in um a sanctuary project or wherever 743 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: you're going into the jail or wherever. How do you 744 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: offer hope from the shame to people? So much of 745 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: my shame journey was really almost behavior modification, just acting differently, 746 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: developing an ethic where I was living in a way 747 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: that was that was healthy. And you know, I remember 748 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 1: early on in the recovery journey learning the phrase self 749 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: esteem comes from doing estimable acts, and I found that 750 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: to be true. You know, when I developed like a 751 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: healthy sexual ethic and morality for myself that I could 752 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: adhere to because I could make choices all of a sudden, 753 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: because I wasn't in my addiction and my alcoholism and 754 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: having that make choices for me, the shame started to 755 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: subside because I was no longer acting out in those ways, 756 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: and then you know, with even in the work environment, 757 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: as I started to build a work ethic and um 758 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: and have some success in my life, the shame of 759 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: my past started to melt away because I had built 760 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: a different narrative in my current life. The problem with 761 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: that is it takes time, and it takes making healthy 762 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: choices over and over and over again over a long 763 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: course of life. Right. So that's so it's easy to 764 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: feel that over you know, twenty years of a new life. 765 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: And I wish that there was a fast solution. I 766 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: wish I could say, like you just, you know, take 767 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: this pill and your shame is gone. Um. But I 768 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 1: do think sometimes we just have to surrender to walking 769 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,439 Speaker 1: out a new life and watching as that new life 770 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: unfolds into something healthy and beautiful and and and then 771 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: I think the the other piece of it for me 772 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: is now seen today, how everything about my life, my story, 773 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: my past is being used to help others. And so 774 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: as I give myself to others who are coming out 775 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 1: of the same things and share my story and where 776 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: I am today, I get to see that offer them hope. 777 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: And so in some ways, when you're asking about what 778 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: is the hope I have to offer. It's a life 779 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: that's been transformed, and I can model that for them, 780 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: And I can model how does a woman who loves 781 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: herself and loves her husband and loves her daughter dress 782 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: and act and behave in the world. How does a 783 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: woman who values her her work identity show up for 784 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: work and run a company? And so as I model that, 785 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: I get to see them get hope. They're seeing that 786 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: person who's just ahead of them. And the cool thing 787 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: about Sanctuary Project is we have women kind of at 788 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: every level of recovery. I'm I'm twenty years out, my 789 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: operations directors thirteen years out, our production managers five years out, 790 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: our program managers three and a half years out. There's 791 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: women who are less, you know, have less time. But 792 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: they're seeing women at different phases of their recovery journey 793 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: and seeing how their lives are so much better and 794 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: so much richer, And so they can constantly look up 795 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: to that woman just ahead of them and say, when 796 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: I get to that three year journey, I'm going to 797 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: be already maybe back in school and you know, maybe 798 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: have like a be living on my own, and gosh, 799 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: when I get to five years, I'm going to have 800 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: probably a healthy relationship. And when I get to thirteen years, 801 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 1: I could be an executive in a company. And when 802 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: I get to twenty years, maybe I could be married, 803 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: with a family and running something. And so they have 804 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: that hope all the time, and that is so cool 805 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: because and so powerful because what I believe is just 806 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: because and this is what you're saying, like just because 807 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: something was your story, it doesn't mean it has to 808 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: remain your story. It can be part of your story. 809 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: But isn't you get to Actually what you're doing is 810 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: you're allowing women to create a new narrative for themselves. 811 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: And how cool is it because this is the other 812 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: thing that meeting you off the street, I would never 813 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: know any of your story, and that is how every 814 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: human is. People can even be our friends, and what 815 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: doesn't mean we know their whole story. And what we 816 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: do is we judge people's insides by their outsides, and 817 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: that's really not fair to us because what it's I 818 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: think a lot of times what we hear is I 819 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 1: could never have a company and have a beautiful family 820 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: and do this stuff because look at where I am. 821 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: But it's that's not true and I think what you're 822 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: doing is so cool because it's what you're doing is 823 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: offering hope, Like that's what this thing is seeing that 824 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: is like, Oh, this doesn't have to still be the 825 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: way I operate. There's something different. There's something different that's 826 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: so cool. It's a real honor. I feel like I 827 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: get to be part of something really really special in 828 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: the world. How can people, whether it is by your 829 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: jewelry or just get involved with the mission that you 830 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: are putting out there in the world. How do we 831 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: just do all of those things? So purchasing the jewelry 832 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: is a wonderful way to support our work. What happens 833 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: when someone buys a piece of jewelry is you're not 834 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: just getting something pretty that you know that that's supporting survivors, 835 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: but our girls actually have the opportunity to make that piece, 836 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: package that piece, ship that piece, and so um. The 837 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: jewelry purchase is wonderful because it's a holistic way to 838 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: to help support what we're doing. If you're someone who 839 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: wants to get involved a little further, we also have 840 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: a sponsor Survivor program where you can come alongside us 841 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: and and sponsor a survivor for either one day a 842 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: month of employment, one week a month of employment, or 843 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: a full month of employment. And that gives you the 844 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 1: opportunity to really feel like you're a part of what 845 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: we're doing in our mission. UM. We are a nonprofit 846 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: five O one C three, so those donations are tax deductible. 847 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: And if you're someone who's looking at at giving and 848 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: wants to support anti trafficking work and wants to support reintegration, 849 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: that's a wonderful way to do that. But yeah, you 850 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: can shop us at Sanctuary Project dot com. You can 851 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: learn all about giving and the sponsor Survivor program at 852 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: Sanctuary Project dot com. And you can find us on 853 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: Instagram on social media at Sanctuary Underscore Project. Okay, awesome. 854 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: And then this is more of a question. I mean 855 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: it's for everybody, but specifically for me if I want 856 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: to learn just more about this in general, are there 857 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: places I should go or I should look? I think 858 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: there's some great resources with Exodus Cry. I love some 859 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: of the resources they're putting out. There's also an organization 860 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: in California called Saving Innocence that does a training on 861 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: how to identify and work with trafficking survivors. UM that's 862 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: a really in depth training. That's that's a wonderful resource. UM. 863 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: There's an international organization called a one that also puts 864 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: out some great resources that are specific to each region 865 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: and country. And then the National Human Trafficking Hotline is 866 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: UM is the best resource if you are currently being 867 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: trafficked or know someone who's being trafficked, that would be 868 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: the place to go. Okay, amazing, thank you. This was 869 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: one just a good conversation, but fascinating, super helpful for me, 870 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: so I'm assuming it's going to be super helpful for 871 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people that hear it. And again, I 872 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: love what you're doing, So thank you for doing this UM, 873 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: and thank you for being here. Yeah, this is a joy. 874 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: Then st